Union Pacific struggles to find enough electricians who have worked with diesel engines. Manufacturers in many places can't find enough machinists. Oil companies must fight for a limited supply of drilling-rig workers.This reminds me of the revelation — in Ron Suskind's book "Confidence Men: Wall Street, Washington, and the Education of a President" — that, back in 2007, Obama and his advisers talked about emphasizing jobs that would reinforce masculine pride. (That led them to the rebuilding infrastructure proposal.)
"There's a tremendous shortage of skilled workers," said Craig Giffi, a vice chairman of the consulting firm Deloitte. A recent survey it did found that 83% of manufacturers reported a moderate or severe shortage of skilled production workers to hire.
The extent and significance of the skills gap is hotly debated in economics circles, in part because of its policy implications. If companies aren't hiring primarily because of limited demand for their products or services, the standard policy prescription offered is some form of stimulus, such as lower interest rates or taxes, or more spending. But to the extent that the problem is companies' inability to find the workers they need, the remedy might instead be training or other efforts to help workers get the skills.
Most research suggests the sluggish economy is the biggest reason for the weak labor market. Data show the skills gap doesn't exist in whole industries but in specific jobs, including certain heavy-duty blue-collar ones.
According to the Wall Street Journal article, large numbers of skilled laborers are retiring these days and it's difficult to replace them in part because of the lack of high-school level vocational training. Consider all the money dumped into college tuition; young people could be getting free training in high school for "secure, well-paying jobs with good benefits... don't require a college degree."
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90 comments:
Tons of OWS folks are looking for jobs. Ohhhh, you said SKILLED labor. Nevermind . . .
the standard policy prescription offered is some form of stimulus, such as lower interest rates or taxes, or more spending.
For "standard" read "Keynesian," which is the same "stimulus" crap that Obama has been doing for his whole frickin' Presidency.
No, the solution to unemployment in our society today is deregulation.
Instapundit would say this is yet more proof of a bubble in the college education industry. People educated for jobs that aren't there, and not educated for the jobs that are. Way to go, socialist masters.
We keep hearing of these shortages, but I remain unconvinced.
What's closer to the truth is that employers are looking for new hires to be a perfect fit- as in, able to be fully productive from day one.
And so, if they're hiring a machinist, that machinist is expected to be familiar with the particular brand and model of CNC machine tool that the manufacturer uses. Or a particular software applicaton. Or some specialized process.
In a buyer's market, that's understandable. But it also doesn't mean they actually can't find workers- it means they're not willing to wait a short time for new hires to get up to speed (because they figure they don't have to).
All the easy jobs are in some third world stink hole.
WSJ is simply another propaganda conduit of ther Banker Debt Box. This is pure nonsense. Can you not read between the lines? The retirements came because the people who run those companies bought them out in order to cut costs, especially 50+ white males. Are you also captured by the Bankers who finance the massive endowment at your University, overrpay you, and finance your exhorbitant pension on the backs of the students? (YES) If you don't know what a natural born Citizen is, and won't even SAY what you think one is, then what are your overpaying students learning there?
But But . . see, like they told me those jobs had a lot of like math and stuff. And math is hard. And .. 'sides, I have a masters in theater arts an nobody will like hire me. Bummer .. Dude.
Technical Colleges for the win!
Consider all the money dumped into college tuition when young people could be getting free training in high school for "secure, well-paying jobs with good benefits... don't require a college degree."
YES. This is one of my hobby horses. The high school education that students are getting today is next to useless.
First, they are barely literate, have little functional math skills, zero knowledge of actual history, geography, literature.....and these are the students that are prepared for college.
When I went to school...pre unionized public education, the students were allowed to be 'tracked'; meaning that those who were planning on college took more advanced, difficult courses in chemistry, physics, trigonometry, English composition etc. We were allowed some electives for broadening our horizons....such as music, art, photography.
My electives were mechanical drawing, typing and music.
Those who were not planning on college could take vocational classes in addition to the core classes. Many were able to apprentice to local firms learning plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanics and other employable skills.
The girls could take those courses that would help them in secretarial or bookkeeping office type pursuits. Typing was a popular class. Remember there were NO PERSONAL COMPUTERS at this time. Shocking to those who are under the age of 30, I know!!
In addition there were homemaking or classes on household management and cooking.
Students graduated with some skills and knowledge, prepared to be productive citizens.
No one was concerned about the widdle feelers of those who were not going to college because the goal was to educate to the student's needs. Today, the schools have been dumbed down beyond belief to try to make everyone "equal". In this goal they have succeeded......everyone is equally stupid, substandard and unemployable.
Typing was a popular class.
I still can hear my typing teacher (she with the bouffant hair!) say:
"A-S-D-F" (pause) "J-K-L-semicolon"
Repeat ad nauseum
The answer to this of course is to slash education, especially technical colleges. Look to Wisconsin!
The theme used to be "jobs Americans won't do". Now it's morphing to "jobs Americans can't do". What's next? Jobs Americans shouldn't do?
Actually, girls could take auto mechanics and woodworking classes too, if they wanted. They just mostly didn't do it.
Why we stopped educating the students is beyond understanding. I'm sure that it began with the unionization of public education and the rise of liberal "feel good everyone is a precious snowflake" philosophy. Educators became political and began to push the left agenda on the schools and actual education and learning declined.
I graduated from high school in 1968.
But I disagree that classes have dumbed down.
The problem with High School education is that too many students are trying to place out of College Classes now by taking (for example) AP classes. Students at my kids' HS take classes at the UW once they've gone through the whole curriculum (Why not just graduate early is what I think). So in addition to teaching the bottom of the Bell Curve -- students who won't go to college and would benefit greatly from a Trades-type education (which West does offer) -- they're teaching the top of the Bell curve as well. But why teach classes that only enable kids to place out of college classes?
We have the ACLU & the NAACP in large part to thnk for these "shortages." When employers were taken to court for administering employment IQ and aptitude tests and the courts found these tests to be "discriminatory" employers began using the college degree as a proxy for minimum-level skill-levels. As a result tens of thousands of HS graduates either temperamentally or intellectually unsuited for college who might otherwise obtain well-paying jobs right out of HS now struggle on in college earning degrees of dubious utility and racking up basically unpayable loan debt.
garage mahal said...
The answer to this of course is to slash education, especially technical colleges. Look to Wisconsin!
Watching you silly goof's pretend you are in favor of "jobs" is boring.
You're a proud member of the party that kills jobs.
So just stop.
"The answer to this of course is to slash education, especially technical colleges. Look to Wisconsin!"
You're phoning this stuff in now, not even believing it yourself.
MadisonMan, your points are good. I, too, have kids in school, and they work harder at a higher level than I did.
All my life, people have complained that the schools suck, yet the public schools I'm familiar with are mostly very good indeed, and demanding more of students than they did in my era (70s/80s).
Related, this is interesting reading:
For decades, Democrats have suffered continuous and increasingly severe losses among white voters. But preparations by Democratic operatives for the 2012 election make it clear for the first time that the party will explicitly abandon the white working class.
All pretence of trying to win a majority of the white working class has been effectively jettisoned in favor of cementing a center-left coalition made up, on the one hand, of voters who have gotten ahead on the basis of educational attainment — professors, artists, designers, editors, human resources managers, lawyers, librarians, social workers, teachers and therapists — and a second, substantial constituency of lower-income voters who are disproportionately African-American and Hispanic.
How stupid do you have to be to believe you can win an election with artists and HR managers as your base?
virgil xenophon said...
We have the ACLU & the NAACP in large part to thnk for these "shortages." When employers were taken to court for administering employment IQ and aptitude tests and the courts found these tests to be "discriminatory" employers began using the college degree as a proxy for minimum-level skill-levels. As a result tens of thousands of HS graduates either temperamentally or intellectually unsuited for college who might otherwise obtain well-paying jobs right out of HS now struggle on in college earning degrees of dubious utility and racking up basically unpayable loan debt.
Yeah because college is obviously the answer to everyone sproblems.
Ah, typing class. Not "keyboarding".
MM and DBQ do you remember the pictures "drawn" by typing in the letters in the chart?
We did Lincoln, but we were in Illinois and had Lincoln's birthday off instead of Washington's. This was prior to "Presidents' Day"...
btw: my house was actually built by vocational students. They call it the "technology campus" at the county's community college. It's high school students though. They built another one last year.
You're a proud member of the party that kills jobs.
Wisconsin is leading the nation in job losses. What's the standard issue excuse? There has to be one. Care to take a guess who is leading the nation in job creation?
The answer to this of course is to slash education, especially technical colleges. Look to Wisconsin!
Because our technical colleges are so underfunded that cosmetology instructors have to get by on, GASP!, only $135,000 a year!
I agree that these shortages are at least somewhat the result of government interference in the higher education market, misdirecting young adults with the lure of easy college loan money.
garage mahal said...
Wisconsin is leading the nation in job losses. What's the standard issue excuse? There has to be one
Uh, look at the White House, clown.
Winters [Dennis Winter, a department economist] said that the slowing of the economy in Wisconsin is mirroring what's happening on a global and national level
But of course you can't blame Obama.
Care to take a guess who is leading the nation in job creation?
I love how you pretend 1 month reports are now a trend.
Of course, you're dumb, so we expected that.
By the way, Barney Frank is retiring. Too bad it isn't because he's being escorted out by FBI agents in handcuffs, but a good day for America, regardless.
Wisconsin is leading the nation in job losses. What's the standard issue excuse? There has to be one
Uh, look at the White House, clown.
So, if Walker does produce and 250000 jobs appear, then it's Obama's doing?
250K new jobs takes Wisconsin back to where it was at the start of the recession, IIRC. So the gimicky I'll create 250000 jobs campaign promise is definitely a low bar.
Not only that but with the "everyone go to college" drive, they ruined college.
During the housing crash, the high inventory of unsold homes was attributed to owners who were not being realistic and were asking too much for their homes. Something similar is going on in the labor market. Employers are not being realistic and not recognizing the fair market value of labor.
Some how it's stupid for home owners to ask too much for their homes but employers who won't pay what labor is worth in the free market are simply victims of a labor shortage.
The problem is not high school vocational training. Companies can train people with good work habits who can read, write and think. The shortage is of people with these basic skills. The other problem is people (see the OWS crowd and those who identify with their bleat) who think that such work is below them.
Uh, look at the White House, clown.
Of course! But that wouldn't explain Illinois and California leading the nation in jobs created.
I love how you pretend 1 month reports are now a trend.
Most Job losses June-October 2011
Wisconsin -27,600
Georgia -19,100
Rhode Island -6,200
Missouri -3,800
Arkansas -3,700
It's almost like Republican governors are killing jobs and Democrat governors creating them. At least according to factual data.
MM and DBQ do you remember the pictures "drawn" by typing in the letters in the chart?
Oh yes. And we had manual typewriters. My left pinkie still hurts from the memories.
The classes ARE dumbed down. I saw the work that my daughter was learning in high school and it was nothing like what we were required to learn. In addition the classes for college prep, were given to the students at much earlier ages.
One of the most valuable courses I had in High School for college prep was how to research and write a thesis paper on a given topic.
Research was at the public or college libraries. Real books. Footnoting. Op Cit. Loc Cit. Appendixes. Cover page. Table of contents. Index. All WITHOUT the use of a word processing program or a computer. Typed on a manual typewriter and assembled in good looking cover.
We were graded not only on the content of the paper, but also on the grammar, typography and assembly of the package.
Try to get a junior in high school to do this.
Classes ARE dumbed down and being taught by dumb teachers who barely know their subjects.
Our education system is a disaster. It is a crying shame what we have done to the youth of America.
Garage, if you think that technical colleges in Wisconsin are teaching these skills, you need to look closer at their curriculum. Wasteful crap is a large percentage of what they do. Another significant percentage is teaching basic reading, writing and counting skills not learned in high school.
Wisconsin's technical colleges are cesspools of unaccountability. The concept is good. The execution sucks.
employers who won't pay what labor is worth in the free market are simply victims of a labor shortage.
As a business owner, your labor is worth what you can produce for me. Your labor is worth what level of skills you have and your ability to learn new skills.
If you have no skills or have a bad attitude....like thinking you are worth more than you really are.....your worth in the free market is doodly squat.
The market is free....go find a job somewhere else,loser.
Wisconsin is losing jobs because people hate Wisconsin.
Reading this blog and the goings-on in Madison and such make it sound like a terrible place to live.
Combine that with shitty winters and you're looking at an employment gold mine!
"What's closer to the truth is that employers are looking for new hires to be a perfect fit."
Those are the stupid employers. Companies that do not train die.
Agree with DBQ on high school, but that's the way William Ayers and the rest of the "distinguished educators" at place like the Columbia University School of Education planned it.
They wanted a population of ignorant serfs who would vote for the next Democrat Messiah in each election. Of course, that means they can't find a job, but the Feds will be glad to print more money.
Ann Althouse said...
This reminds me of the revelation — in Ron Suskind's book "Confidence Men: Wall Street, Washington, and the Education of a President" — that, back in 2007, Obama and his advisers talked about emphasizing jobs that would reinforce masculine pride. (That led them to the rebuilding infrastructure proposal.)
And, of course, this has become the man-cession.
He really is the Black Hand of Death, isn't he?
And now I'm off to meet with our CPA for end of the year tax consultations for our corporation.
I'm sure by the time I get back Ritmo will have jumped in and we will have a 200+ comment thread discussing gay marriage or something else totally extraneous to the topic.
Have fun
:-D
Of course! But that wouldn't explain Illinois and California leading the nation in jobs created.
Um, in October.
California still has the 2nd highest unemployement rate in the nation at 11.7 percent.
I think you should go on bleating about California.
Really, you should.
It's almost like Republican governors are killing jobs and Democrat governors creating them.
Yes, because New York is doing so well!
PS, The largest
over-the-month decrease in employment occurred in Wisconsin (-9,700), followed by
New York (-8,300) and Minnesota (-6,100).
You are a clown.
1) A company I work with rebuilds manufacturing machinery. I had lunch with the owner a couple weeks ago and he said he is looking for several mechanics. He pays $75,000/yr to start and can't find any. Caveat: They have to be really good and highly skilled.
2) Another which builds new machinery has their production limited by not being able to find people with basic mechanical abilities. They are also looking for PLC programmers. (PLCs are what control machines)
3) I have been reading Steve Jobs' bio (excellent, BTW) and he talks about employing 700,000 people in China making his products. For that he needs 30,000 manufacturing engineers. They just do not exist in those quantities in the US.
4) I just got off the phone with a client and among other things we talked about was their inability to find industrial mechanics.
We do have an employment problem in the US. If we need people to work with the semiotics of French feminist literature, they are probably a dime a dozen.
On the other hand, they are probably not worth a nickle a dozen in terms of value they can produce.
If we want productive people, they are a bit thin on the ground.
John Henry
Most Job losses June-October 2011
Hysterical.
Why did you pick those dates, garbage?
The skilled trades unions have been very exclusionary-- at least they were in Michigan. In order to get into the union to train for some of these kinds of jobs, you've had to know someone.
(I have noticed Obama has stopped talking so much about his college for everyone idea)
The classes ARE dumbed down. I saw the work that my daughter was learning in high school and it was nothing like what we were required to learn.
I tend to disagree. However, my son is only in third grade, so I have no idea how the current high school curriculum matches up with my experience.
He's learning things way ahead of the pace I did in elementary school. There's a ton more writing and reading comprehension work, and more problem solving.
It helps that he goes to one of the top-ranked schools in the state (public).
Garage loves the random misleading fact. California has the second highest unemployment rate in the nation, behind Nevada. It has been the greatest job loser in the country for the past year or so.
Dead cat bounce, Garage.
Wisconsin was among 36 states where jobless rates fell in October. The seasonally adjusted rate in the Badger State fell one-tenth-of-a-point, to 7.7 percent.
PS, In July, Illinois lost 24,900 jobs, and Minnesota lost 19,800.
Aren't facts fun, garbage?
Speaking of Wisconsin technical colleges:
One I am familiar with is Wisconsinson Indianhead Technical College www.witc.edu
They have the only program in the US to train Automated Packaging Machine Mechanics. It is a 2 year program and grads don't even get an Associates degree. They get a certificate.
OTOH, their grads get their pick of jobs and start at $50m plus.
They are worth every penny.
WITC also has a variety of other technical programs that I don't know anything specific about. If they are anything like the packaging program, they are probably pretty good.
John Henry
I hire for a large manufacturing facility. The best candidates have two year vocational training. It is not just the skills they have but they come with the mindset that manufacturing requires: hands on, problem solving, and a desire to work in a manufacturing environment. But I usually have to settle for someone with a BA and no job prospects. Not only does it take years to train them but they don't really want to be here and they jump at the first desk job that comes along.
These are good jobs but there really is a shortage of people with the right skills and mindset. Training is only part of the problem - you can teach someone to hold a wrench but you can't make them happy about it.
And we had manual typewriters. My left pinkie still hurts from the memories.
We had IBM selectrics. This was 1976 or 1977, however.
Aren't facts fun, garbage?
No, facts aren't fun if you live in Wisconsin. Is Obama blocking Walker's "reforms", Jaytard? Whatever metric you want to choose, Wisconsin is lagging behind the country:
In October, 14 states recorded statistically significant changes in employment, 13 of which were increases....The only state with an over-the-month statistically significant decline in employment was Wisconsin (-9,700)....
The reason WITC only gives a certificate instead of a degree is that to get a degree, the accrediting board requires a large number of credits in extraneous stuff.
So they get lots of math, not too much English lit.
Courses in writing (so they can write manuals and instructions) but no social sciences.
John Henry
Higher ed is big, big business (I know, I worked there) and they have the legislatures and unions on their side. Hence the big push for College for Everyone.
I do suspect these companies are angling for government subsidies for training, but yes, skilled workers are necessary--and well paid. A mechanic at an auto dealer in CA I know makes $100K a year.
I heard a great source of skilled workers are people with technical skills coming out of the military. Problem largely solved by employees aggressively canvassing their local Fort Bragg, Dix, Hood, etc.
Oops, employers not employees
The problems are:
1: Democrats make money off sending people to college.
2: College seems to screw people up, making them more likely to vote Democrat
3: OTOH, having a useful skill, and making money by hard work, seems to push people to vote Republican.
4: A lot of people who are important parts of the Democrat coalition have "you can only have a fulfilling life if you get a college education" as an important part of their world-view.
5: Those kinds of jobs (plumber, oil rig worker, etc.) are not part of the "Blue Social Model" (thank you WRM). They're not government jobs, they tend to go to people based upon merit rather than as part of a political spoils package, and they tend to be male dominated professions.
For all those reasons, the Democrats aren't going to support making people ready for those jobs. "Bad for the Party" trumps "good for society, and good for the individuals" every day, when you're on the Left.
DBQ said...Those who were not planning on college could take vocational classes in addition to the core classes. Many were able to apprentice to local firms learning plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanics and other employable skills.
In theory this is where private sector unions would be useful. e.g. the way Germany does it.
Trad unions working with businesses and the local schools to define an apprenticeship program, a union dues structure that allows ease of entry, and businesses that recruit from the school/union apprentice pool.
On the topic of the WSJ article, pop was a railroad man for 40 years. Western Pacific, (now the UP of the article). Beyond, On-the-Job Training, the best surrogate source for heavy diesel mechanics is the military where there are large numbers of heavy portable power generators and where heavy equipment abounds (Army and Navy).
My company has a heck of a time finding skilled and qualified applicants for job openings.
John Henry,
Just north of Wisconsin Indianhead Technical College which is located in New Richmond, WI, is Bosch Packaging. Bosch manufactures packaging machines.
I taught Industrial Technology in a high school career center for three years. It included PLCs (programmable logic controllers). However, the guidance councilors kept sending me students too stupid and/or unmotivated to learn anything. I transferred to middle school to get away from them, out of the frying pan, into the fire.
Drug-testing, going in and throughout. That's the nature of tech/blue-collar jobs. If teachers, clergy, financiers, lawyers, politicians and bureaucrats were held to the same drug-free standards as bus drivers and locomotive engineers and mechanics (UP and every other RR), the only leader cadre left standing in the USA would be military and a few medical doctors.
I have an Ivy League pedigree and then went blue-collar because I found the New York Social Register inhibiting, homeschooled and urged the kids to first find a trade they like and be good at it and then do whatever else they might like to do. They have done that, all are well-employed, prosperous and self-reliant. None of them can be thrown out of remunerative labor unless centralized food production disappears, which is a possibility now that would throw everyone out of "work."
When I see "OWS" I see individuals disgracing their mothers.
We had a state level industrial mechanics competition that was won by a female, home schooled student. She was a pleasant pretty girl as well.
For a thoughtful take on this, that questions whether the data offered in the article supports the conclusion see http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/11/skilled-jobs-go-begging-not-quite
I have a next-door neighor who owns a small robotics firm (they build and service the electrical brains of these robots that run much lf industry these days.) He has a hell of a time finding qualified people and when he does the businesses he serves hire them away with more money as fast as he can get them.
None have Womyn's Studies degrees.
My nephew dropped out of college, drifted around for awhile and finally landed in an apprentiship program to be a Millwright. He is now a Journeyman, the old guys are retiring one by one and he's getting full time work around the Milwaukee area. He makes decent money and belongs to a union, loves his work and is good at it.What could be better?
Wisconsin, forward.
Stephen: Interesting article you linked to. Kevin Drum thinks it is outrageous for job candidates to have to pay for their own tests? Perhaps this is another bit of the selection process that makes clear those who want the job and those who do not. His article in no way refutes the WSJ article.
He seems to think the job is very hard because it requires what is known as work.
Allie: Good for your nephew! And if it suits him he might find that he goes from journeyman to supervisor to owner. Hopefully he can make enough in a good year to be a millionaireandbillionaire.
My next door neighbor teaches 6th grade. She has a class of 30 that she's trying to get up to grade level in reading. They're currently reading at a 2nd grade level. How did they ever get out of elementary school?
Oh yeah, social promotion. Can't keep anyone back - that would hurt their feelings...
The problems are:
1: Democrats make money off sending people to college.
2: College seems to screw people up, making them more likely to vote Democrat
3: OTOH, having a useful skill, and making money by hard work, seems to push people to vote Republican.
4: A lot of people who are important parts of the Democrat coalition have "you can only have a fulfilling life if you get a college education" as an important part of their world-view.
5: Those kinds of jobs (plumber, oil rig worker, etc.) are not part of the "Blue Social Model" (thank you WRM). They're not government jobs, they tend to go to people based upon merit rather than as part of a political spoils package, and they tend to be male dominated professions.
For all those reasons, the Democrats aren't going to support making people ready for those jobs. "Bad for the Party" trumps "good for society, and good for the individuals" every day, when you're on the Left.
11/28/11 11:06 AM
You couldn't be more wrong, all the Millwrights my nephew works with are Democrats and union members, as is he.
Allie: Good for your nephew! And if it suits him he might find that he goes from journeyman to supervisor to owner. Hopefully he can make enough in a good year to be a millionaireandbillionaire.
11/28/11 12:34 PM
Michael, maybe he doesn't give a shit about becoming a millionaire or billionaire. Has it dawned on you that there is more to life than the accumulation of wealth?
Allen S
Just north of Wisconsin Indianhead Technical College which is located in New Richmond, WI, is Bosch Packaging. Bosch manufactures packaging machines.
+++
Also Krones, one of the world's largest packaging machine manufacturers is in Milwaukee, Campbell Wrapping, Parsons and a couple other biggies in the Green Bay area.
Several other machine builders as well in WI.
They are not the real customers for WITC grads, though.
WITC grads are more likely to go to food, pharma, consumer goods, household chemical and other packaged products companies.
John Henry
Well, I would say that Shop Classes were what kept me in school. My junior year Woodworking was my first class of the day, and I was there every morning waiting for the classroom to open so I could go to work on drop leaf table that that sits in my den today.then 6 years in the Navy as an electronics technician.
I currently work as a tool and die maker (2years at Rankin Tech, and a 4 year apprenticeship). At 52 Im the youngest tool maker on my shift, and I don't think anyone in my shop is under 40. The economy being what it is, and retirement seeming so uncertain I just might work till I'm 70.
Am I a fan of technical education? you better believe it.
Allie: I take it back. I hope he doesn't make a lot of money. I hope he is satisfied with his lot and doesn't seek to get ahead. Because I am sure it would never occur to him to want to do better because I am sure from a very early age it has been drummed into his head that the world is ruled by rich people, the other. Suits me to the ground and sorry you are on your period.
Michael, maybe he doesn't give a shit about becoming a millionaire or billionaire. Has it dawned on you that there is more to life than the accumulation of wealth?
Imagine what a man could do with that wealth.
Have you ever been to Carnegie Hall?
Have you ever been to Carnegie Hall?
Or a public library, for that matter???
E.M. - not just the Hall, but all the free lending libraries he built. There's one near me in Waukegan, IL - hometown of Ray Bradbury and Jack Benny...
E.M.Davis: Man lefty commenters are against the rich and are blind to any good things that come from the rich. In their world the only morally upright people are the poor. Only the poor can feel compassion, can heal the sick, can do the hard jobs, can protect us from our enemies. To want to do well financially is an ethical failure among this set, all of whom you can bet believe they too would be rich if they wanted, if they chose not to do the noble work they do.
MadisonMan, yes.
I've been saying for years that there's too much emphasis on 'higher' education. Not enough people taking up trades.
And there are many with completely useless degrees that spent 6 figures to get them. The ROI isn't there, for sure.
Academic bubble.
Michael, don't get your feelings hurt by how I respond to you, not that you would. I don't trust any utterance you post, it always has either an outright insult or a passive aggressive one.
My nephew doesn't need your blessing one way or another.
Allie: Passive aggressive?
You are so out of your depth here.
There is nothing wrong with making money and accumulating wealth, especially if they engage in philanthropy. However, there are people who simply do not see it as nesessary to living a fulfilling life.
Poverty doesn't allow for a full life, so one must have a way of providing the necessities as well as some of the finer things. Both the white collar and the blue collar have a role in our society, to afford less respect to the blue collar worker because he will never be a millionaire or billionaire is elitist and vulgar.
Michael, investment banking so suits you. You would fail miserably as a doctor or even a nurse, so glad you never walked down that road.
"There is nothing wrong with making money and accumulating wealth"
Tell that to your comrades at OWS.
Allie: I simply wished your nephew well and hoped that he would want to advance in his chosen profession. Otherwise I would suggest you examine your willingness to pigeon hole people based on their professions. Vulgar is a good word for that tendency of yours which you have wrongly reflected on me. You are the one judging people based on what they do, not me. You are the one suggesting that a person's views disqualify them from the healing professions. I wished your nephew well and hope he succeeds even if you would see his getting rich as a betrayal of some fucked up class principle you apparently hold.
Well, Michael, maybe it boils down to this, based on our past interactions, I suspect your sincerity. Every chance you got , you were on the attack, so why would I take you at face value?
There is nothing wrong with making money and accumulating wealth, especially if they engage in philanthropy.
What differentiates "nothing wrong with it" from "especially nothing wrong with it"? :)
All pretence of trying to win a majority of the white working class has been effectively jettisoned in favor of cementing a center-left coalition made up, on the one hand, of voters who have gotten ahead on the basis of educational attainment — professors, artists, designers, editors, human resources managers, lawyers, librarians, social workers, teachers and therapists — and a second, substantial constituency of lower-income voters who are disproportionately African-American and Hispanic.
Those, combined with enough of the dead and imaginary, should be enough to win every election from now on.
Michael,
Kevin Drum thinks it is outrageous for job candidates to have to pay for their own tests? Perhaps this is another bit of the selection process that makes clear those who want the job and those who do not.
Michael thinks it is outrageous for companies to pay for prospective employees to take their aptitude tests. Perhaps this is another bit of the selection process that makes clear those who want to hire the qualified applicants and those who do not.
Mariner No one does not follow from the other.
True, Michael; I was only trying to show the other side of the issue.
WV: fartint
Here I sit brokenhearted ...
"My nephew doesn't need your blessing one way or another."
Good riposte. You're right, there are other goals than piling up money. Many others. Piling up money for piling up money is a fool's goal.
The circumstances of this life are consequences of the previous one. Whomever has riches as money deserves it. Jealousy isn't going to deny it them and if they think they "made it" in this life they'll reverse conditions in the next.
Let and leave, let and leave, none of us knows the past or the future and of the present we know such a modicum as to be nearly beyond valuation. If your nephew has set his own course not for stacking gold, bless him. If gold is due him he will receive it. If not, he won't. Either way is irrelevant to your nephew's destiny.
"You are the one suggesting that a person's views disqualify them from the healing professions. I wished your nephew well and hope he succeeds even if you would see his getting rich as a betrayal of some fucked up class principle you apparently hold."
A person's views can disqualify them from the healing professions.
Success is measured in numerous factors, the most essential one being hollow life a flute so that the Divine Wind may blow through one unhindered, making sweet melodies.
Resort to insult and obscenity is a sign of weakness.
"You couldn't be more wrong, all the Millwrights my nephew works with are Democrats and union members, as is he."
I guess you missed the whole "Obama's abandoning the white working class" kerfuffle. They may officially be Democrats, and they may have the misfortune to be stuck in a union, but a good chunk of them are voting Republican once they get inside the polling booth.
There's a reason why the phrase "Reagan Democrats" came along.
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