August 28, 2011

"I spent a lot of time thinking about contemporary Christianity, and obviously the rapture kept coming up."

"My first impulse was ... to laugh it off — it's sort of a funny idea, people just floating away. But I kept thinking: What if it did happen? ... I thought, I'm such a skeptic that even if it did happen, I would resist the implications of it, and I also thought that three years later, everyone would have forgotten about it. No matter what horrible thing happens in the world, the culture seems to move on."

Tom Perrotta, author of "Election" (which was made into a terrific movie) has written a novel about life after the rapture called "The Leftovers." Obviously, there's a big fiction genre on this subject, so what's interesting here is that a literary (as they say) novelist is applying his mind and methods to the Rapture.

Listen to the audio at the link. He's extremely insightful. I'm going to read the book. (Use my links please if you feel like buying it too.) Perhaps it irks you to think of a fancy "literary" writer — with access to NPR promotion — appropriating the material that "genre" writers have made their own. But if you listen to the interview, you'll see that he's not full of himself and not disrespectful toward those other writers. He seems genuinely interested in exploring the idea.

86 comments:

ndspinelli said...

As long as Carol Herman isn't one of the leftovers, I'll be fine.

Quaestor said...

First! Oh well, nothing to say... Boring subject for a novel if you ask me.

Quaestor said...

Damn. Spinelli beat me.

Quaestor said...

I'd bet Carol Underscore Herman would be one of the rejected of God. If I were a supreme being I couldn't face an eternity of C_H going on about the Zapruder film.

The Crack Emcee said...

What if it did happen? ... I thought, I'm such a skeptic that even if it did happen, I would resist the implications of it,....

Those are not the words of a skeptic but of a stubborn idiot. Skeptics don't "resist the implications" of what they find to be true. They accept them - as quickly as possible. Thinking correctly is the goal, not getting your way.

I don't think this man has much to offer, as far as thinking goes. He's just another narcissist.

Carol_Herman said...

Our disk is flat.

One of the hardest concepts comes from quantum theory. (Which led to cosmology.)

Since Black Holes have an "end point" ... when the "bottom is reached and they evaporate). Richard Feynman said you could measure this. And, place a ZERO on the bottom "patch."

So the disk is actually flat.

Starting off this thread with an ad hominem really doesn't improve the messages you get from religious nutters.

Quaestor said...

Carol Underscore Herman in Heaven would be like the biggest thread hijack in cosmic history. Heaven is basically a blog, isn't it? God has set up this fantastic site with well nigh infinite symmetric bandwidth behind it and everybody in the Celestial Realm is logged on 24/1 (The heavenly week has only one day, and it's Sunday! Take that misbelieving Jews, Muslims and Seventh Day Adventists!)

Since history has ended there's not much to talk about so the one and only thread is God's one question: Just how great, wonderful, ineffable and sublime do you raptured souls think I AM? So all the grateful denizens of the Streets of Gold mill around punching out ever more fulsome praise on their jeweled iPads. Then C_H chimes in with Lee Harvey Oswald worked for Naval Intelligence, just like Bob Woodward.

Phil 314 said...

"Contemporary Christianity" to him is all that is weird and perverse. The Rapture is not something me and my fellow "contemporary Christians" talk much about.

PS We tend to talk about our daily struggles (money, conflicts, temptation etc) and how we can support, pray for and seek biblical guidance for them. I know, boring stuff. Not the subject of novels.

Carol_Herman said...

Quaestor, you don't have to worry.

Which reminds me of a Jewish joke.

An older gent, chasing youth, does everything from Botox, to hair dye. To face lifts. To keep himself looking young. Friends of old don't recognize him. And, he likes it this way. He also dates young babes.

And, falls in love with a 23 year old woman, who accepts his proposal of marriage.

The wedding place is on a busy street, and as he's crossing the street, this man gets hit by a car. And, dies.

In heaven, where he is ushered into the "The Presence," he says, God, it's Irving!"

And, God says, "Gee, Irving. I didn't recognize you."

J said...

Rapture's a big part of the Bachmannite platform (and Perry to an extent as well--and Calamity Sarah, assuming she runs). Going to be rather difficult to get the economy rolling while preparing to be whisked up yonder ....in a twinklin' of an eye.

Your people Amazing Cracki

Carol_Herman said...

I don't speak French, so I didn't think of it right away; but people floating up into the air, towards the clouds ... sure sounds like a Rene Margritte painting right there.

Larger scale? More canvas.

Ann Althouse said...

Does Irving get into heaven? Or is God all "depart from me I never knew ye"?

Brian Hancock said...

"well everyone knows General Custard died at the Battle of Little Big Horn .... What this book presupposes is .... Maybe he didn't."

Quaestor said...

And what will the snake handlers do in Heaven? In case you don't know these guys prove their devotion to God by "taking up serpents" and drinking unhealthy shit like paint thinner. Usually they get by with their stunts, but now and again one drops dead from a rattler bite or a swig of mercury. But once they make it to Paradise they're immortal and invulnerable, right? So they're dancing around, singing praises and hymns, and the poor snakes bite again and again uselessly. It must be exhausting, and more than a little monotonous. But it's their gig, isn't it? So I figure God has equipped Heaven with some really wicked snakes whose venom can fell even an archangel. This way the raptured snake handlers can actually incur some risk, thus making their eternal lives more meaningful.

Meade said...

Oh well now, roll out the Carol and we'll have a _Herman of fun.

somefeller said...

As an Episcopalian who was raised Catholic, I'm not sure what's more annoying - Christians who believe in the Rapture (an theological concept that is basically just something a few odd American Protestants came up with) or non-Christians who think that it is a really important concept for the bulk of Christians around the world.

edutcher said...

That Perotta is willing to give it (or, at least, the people who believe in it) serious consideration and some respect shows he's got more intellectual curiosity (and class) than most Lefties.

It is a very intriguing concept.

Carol_Herman said...

Our disk is flat.

I think she just called all her detractors impotent.

Or something.

PS Sounds like some people think all religious thinking should be like Islam and not change over be subject to reflection over time.

J said...

Hell is like hearing Alttard comments repeated over the Devil's sound system 24/7. And now, more CAROL HERMAN-SPEAK, you miserable wretches--bwahbwahbwahbwahbwahbwahbwahbwahbwah...

ndspinelli said...

Carol Herman, Your lame Jewish joke reminded me of a Carol Herman joke.

The San Diego Zoo was having a real problem. Their adult male gorilla, Kimba, was needing to mate and was getting aggressive. The zoo had no appropriate female gorillas to fill the need. Money was tight and they couldn't afford to bring in a suitable female. The director called a meeting and asked that everyone brainstorm. The veternarian noted that Carol Herman, the shit cleaner, seemed to have a very good relationship w/Kimba. Maybe Carol could fill the need. Carol wasn't very bright and the group didn't want to take advantage of her. So..they proposed a $500 award for this one time service. They would simply explain to Carol Herman the problem and possible solution, but would not put any pressure on her. However, all knew Carol was having financial problems and the $500 would be a real enticement.

The director called Carol Herman into the conference. He explained to Carol Herman the situation and asked, "Carol..for $500 would you help service Kimba?" Carol was usually expressionless but a strange look came on her face. She tought a minute and then said, "I'll do it, on 3 conditions. "First, nobody else can know about this." The director emphatically said, "Absolutely, Carol." Then Carol said, "I'm not going to kiss Kimba during this." Again, the director said, "Of course, Carol." Carol then paused a moment and said.."Finally,It will have to be later this week, I've got to come up w/ the $500."

Quaestor said...

Something tells me J won't be among the Leftovers.

Conserve Liberty said...

Did it ever occur to anyone that we might already be leftovers?

Gabriel Hanna said...

I'm with Crack. A Rapture--millions people, all Christians, disappearing at once--would definitely convert me.

However--what if the number of people who are saved is so tiny we didn't notice? In that case, how do we know it didn't happen already?

But Rapture is a minority Christian belief that has somehow been attributed to all Christians by the media, probably because it sounds nutty.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Carol:One of the hardest concepts comes from quantum theory. (Which led to cosmology.)

Since Black Holes have an "end point" ... when the "bottom is reached and they evaporate). Richard Feynman said you could measure this. And, place a ZERO on the bottom "patch."

So the disk is actually flat.


Carol, he's not talking about a LITERAL disk. He's using a analogy to help you picture what is going on in 4 dimensions.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@J:Rapture's a big part of the Bachmannite platform

Bachmann is a Lutheran.

Quaestor said...

Ann Althouse wrote:
Does Irving get into heaven? Or is God all "depart from me I never knew ye"?

Yeah, God's big into this "depart from me" stuff. He just doesn't want to deal with the aggravation. He's really busy. And He doesn't do interviews, even for Oprah. But he rarely does the "depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire" thing personally. He's got an entourage for that. They're mostly third degree black belts with names like Paulie and Carmine.

Writ Small said...

The idea in this book is that those removed in the "rapture" cross all religions and even include non-believers, homosexuals and others contemporary Christians might not expect.

How do the self-professed Christians left behind react to *that* event? Would they accept it as a legitimate rapture? Or would the human capacity for self-justification interfere?

I've been looking for a good piece of fiction. This looks pretty interesting.

Carol_Herman said...

Ann, I always assumed, since the old groom gets killed when he's hit by a car ... that he "goes to heaven."

Where he asks God "Why did you kill me? Didn't you see I was about to marry a truly beautiful young woman, and I was going to be so happy?"

When the punch line of the joke is God telling Irving "the death must have been a mistake. Since God didn't recognize Irving."

Maybe, you have to be Jewish?

It's also like a Mort Sahl joke I remember ... which taught me about different cultures.

Mort Sahl said "Jewish boys leave home INTELLECTUALLY."

But an Irish kid just punches his father in the face. And, the dad punches him back. They go a few rounds. And, decide to go to the pub, together, to get drunk.

For Italians, he said: The kid yells at his parents that he is leaving home, and will never return! So, he goes out to the backyard, and builds his own house.

Take it or leave it.

There are just jokes.

Nobody I know ever heard from the Great Master in the Sky. Though I do believe he has one heck of a sense of humor.

Fr Martin Fox said...

I'd like to read and enjoy the book; i.e., I have no objection to someone attempting it.

The Rapture (as usually presented) is a problematic theory all kinds of ways.

Quaestor said...

Conserve Liberty wrote:
Did it ever occur to anyone that we might already be leftovers?

Impossible. Obama is still here.

Carol_Herman said...

Oh, Meade, you make me feel so fat.

Good, though, when I was young, I was so skinny, no one said Carol and Barrel together. I was "skinny ma-link."

And, what seems so sad, here, is that people lose their sense of humor when religion invades their brains. Look what happened when the Dannish cartoonist drew a funny cartoon.

You didn't think the cartoon was funny?

Maybe, ya just have to be Jewish.

I don't even think the Popes sell real estate for elsewhere. And, now I just hope they leave those little kids behinds.

That wasn't funny.

Carol_Herman said...

Gabrielle Hanna @ 11:24 AM.

It was theory when Feynman proposed it. Not any more!

As to people floating in air, going up like on an elevator ... but there's no overhead cables. Just men wearing bowler hats.

That's Rene Margritte. PICTURED IT.

Great Art!

But it pays to have a sense of humor. And, to know when an artist really makes a "flat surface of canvas" dance.

Carol_Herman said...

Is the "rapture" new?

What ever happened to "born-again?"

What's wrong with having a good sense of humor about stuff?

Once interred ... it turns out ... the earth shifts the boxes around.

What does this mean? Jimmy Breslin wrote that it means when one of a marriage dies first. And, the plot bought is for one to come in later, on top. That the bottom box moved over ... and is probably under someone else.

People, however, believe the craziest things. Because they want to believe. If you can't figure out "6 feet down" ... how are you going to figure out "6 feet up?"

And, again, what happened to those believers that they got born twice?

William said...

The Rapture is the Christian version of global warming. It is self important to think that of all the generations of man that yours is the final one. I appreciate the valiant effort that Madonna and Lady Gaga have made but I don't think that their wickedness is sufficient to trigger God's End of Days reflex.

Quaestor said...

Carol_Herman wrote:
You didn't think the cartoon was funny?

Meh. They were kinda lame. The Danes just aren't funny. Jews are funny. That's why there's a borscht belt and not a nine-different-herring-dishes belt. Victor Borge was a funny Dane, but he was also Jewish, so he had a leg up on the funny. Søren Kierkegaard was a really funny Dane, but he tried not to be.

ndspinelli said...

Carol Herman Stupid Question #22,441: Is The Rapture new? A: Is the early 1800's new? One should always answer a stupid question w/ a question.

traditionalguy said...

Bible basics:

Rapture by definition happens in the blink of an eye of the first resurrection taking up those Christians still alive who are eagerly awaiting the return of the Lord

Those remaining can include Christians who were not eagerly awaiting the Parousia.

The scripture that should astound Christians is where the Prophet Jesus says that even he does not know the day or the time, but only the Father who has authority to make that decision, although all
judgement has been delegated by the Father to the Son.

N.B. The taking away of the Church implies the taking away of the restraining force of the Holy Spirit that now restrains evil by proclamation of scripture through believers

Have a nice day.

Robert Cook said...

The rapture is mere superstition, of course, but Michael Tolkin (who wrote the novel on which Robert Altman's film THE PLAYER was based), made a strange and compelling film in 1991 called THE RAPTURE starring Mimi Rogers. In it, he takes seriously and very literally the idea of the rapture and depicts Rogers as a numb pleasure seeker who comes to embrace fundamentalist Christianity and who must make a choice that will either allow her to join God in Heaven or be forever be banished therefrom.

I recommend it, even for my fellow nonbelievers. (After all, all fiction is, uh, fictional, but we can still enjoy it when it's well done.)

J said...

Quaestor-- something tells me you're another fundamentalist retard.


"Rapture" is heretical. But that doesn't stop evangelicals from embracing it. Heresy's good for bidness! One reason Mittens Romneytoid does so well.

Quaestor said...

J wrote:
Quaestor-- something tells me you're another fundamentalist retard.

That something is your brain, J. In your case a very untrustworthy organ. You should consider having it removed.

J said...

wrong again, Quaestor the TP Assclown--you're not the voice of Reason here. You're the voice of white trash-zionist idiocy. Yr pig latin is.... mierda, tambien
Imagine your teeth kicked the F. in, yid

Quaestor said...

J, you are so easy...

Quaestor is to J as shotgun is to fish in a barrel.

Anonymous said...

If this really is the end, and I think it may well be, even though the "culture seems to move on", it won't move on for more than about seven years, and things are going to get progressively worse during those seven years.

David R. Graham said...

"I'm not sure what's more annoying - Christians who believe in the Rapture (an theological concept that is basically just something a few odd American Protestants came up with) or non-Christians who think that it is a really important concept for the bulk of Christians around the world."

Thank you. Finally, some sense and knowledge. Although I would use the modern vernacular "lame" or the Althouseian "bullshit" in place of "annoying." Still, an elegant declaration of fact, and thank you.

Heaven and hell are man-made concepts derived, ultimately, from Middle Eastern angelolotry, which was florid during biblical times and moved to Europe thereafter. New Testament cosmology to some extent reflects that peculiar Middle Eastern obsession. And the concepts of heaven and hell rattle down through popular thought and history right up to the present time.

Heaven and hell are not religious concepts and religious people do not use them, either one of them. Christianity, specifically, articulates in the language of Greek ontological philosophy (itself derived from Vedic non-dualistic philosophy [adwaitha]) not in the language of Middle Eastern angelolotry.

traditionalguy said...

Carol...Have no fear, the Althouse commentariat has not been made your Judge whether at the rapture or upon normal physical death.

God looks upon the heart, and He loves whom He choses to love.

See you there.

caplight said...

One time when I was a kid I came home and no one was there. Not my parents, not my sister not my brother and I didn't know where anyone was. It went through my little baptist fundamentalist mind that maybe I had missed the rapture. Unnerving to say the least. Eventually they came home.

J said...

You're easy, Quaestor joto-- eazy as like the day the paysano took out that piece of shit Bugsy Seigel. POP POP POP--and it slid back into its shitbucket

Heh heh.

YoungHegelian said...

To echo somefeller, let me fix a line for the author:

"I spent a lot of time thinking about contemporary [American Fundamentalist Protestant] Christianity, and obviously the rapture kept coming up...."

That the Rapture has the whole "Left Behind" series to its literary credit does not mean it looms large in the consciousness of about 95% of the world's 1.5 billion Christians.

He may be considerate of the Christian tradition he is borrowing from, and, in these days, that's a blessing, but he still seems to ignorant of the bigger picture.

Carol_Herman said...

Traditional Guy, I had a wonderful uncle. And, even though I was a kid ... I used to describe my Uncle Jack as having such a wonderful heart ... he could love you 100%. Just as he loved others 100%.

You couldn't get me to believe 100% represented the whole of everything. And, I always thought God was lots smarter than all of mankind, combined.

And, he has a sense of humor!

But no time piece. Time to him means nothing.

What do humans get? Winds to their backs, when their lucky. And, somehow God approves.

But he gives no whispers. Not even faint praise.

Just a lot of bullshit artists who came along ... and took money ... to buy themselves the places ... where you still need to give them money ... to turn on the electric lights.

DADvocate said...

One reason I don't fly in airplanes is that if the Rapture comes and the pilot is spirited away, I'd be left on a pilotless aircraft bound to crash.

YoungHegelian said...

@David Graham

"Heaven and hell are not religious concepts and religious people do not use them, either one of them. "

Oh Gosh, someone should have informed poor ole Dante!

Sorry, David, the various sects can speak for themselves and Heaven and Hell are very important concepts in their soterology, whether you like it or not.

ricpic said...

Kierkegaard couldn't get past the fact that his fellow Danes professed to being Christian but didn't really BELIEVE. In other words they were hypocrites. Like most of us worldwide. Growing up is largely a matter of coming to grips with that fact. Kierk couldn't grow up. Of course if he had grown up or as we say become reasonable or stopped being a fanatic we wouldn't have his searing prose.

David R. Graham said...

"Did it ever occur to anyone that we might already be leftovers?"

Brilliant! Hilariously brilliant, and true. We are indeed the leftovers. Existence is the leftover from an essential disturbance.

One wants to talk about hell? OK, one entered it at birth, which was the moment one starts dying. Hell, if one wants to think there is one, is the cycle of birth and death where nothing in-between permanently satisfies, where desire never ends and permanently outstrips fulfillment.

One wants to talk about heaven? OK, one enters it every time one hopes for something, fantasizes something, expects something. In other words, one enters heaven when one momentarily steps out of the parade to death through the power of imagination. Then falls back into the parade and out of the flight of fancy.

Heaven and hell are characteristics of space, time, substance and causality.

"The Rapture" is one of those fantasies, one of those hopey-changey thingies. History is very full of "rapture" movements. Their political correlates are utopian movements, which also are legion.

Modern utopians (our precious nanny-staters) and modern "rapturists" (our precious lazy-asses) are two faces of the same coin. They condemn one another as demons do when they look in a mirror.

Irving didn't get into heaven because he woke up to realize he had been dreaming. And Carol Herman is a delightful read.

YoungHegelian said...

@David Graham,

Take care, buddy! You're on the border of becoming a version of Carol_H with a degree in philosophy!

Skyler said...

Those crazy protestants. Some of them take everything to an extreme literal interpretation.

I'm not a Catholic any more, but even Catholics don't believe in Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, people floating away in a rapture, or creationism. I wonder why people find it necessary to believe fairy tales that just make their religion harder to take seriously?

There's enough reason to reject a belief in magical beings without claiming so many silly stories are necessarily true. Sometimes it's just a parable.

Carol_Herman said...

You know, I know God has a sense of humor. On some days I can see this all around me.

For instance. Take Queen Liz the Second. She heads up the anglican church. (We changed the name to episcopalian ... to get rid of the kings and queens of England having any religious role in America.)

Anyway, here's what I noticed.

When Lizzie was about 16 she fell in love with a no good royal. Head over heels in love! As some women are prone to do.

She marries this philip. (Much to her dad's chagrin.)

And, the thing we know the least of ... is how anybody gets born.

But humans put a lot of faith in "being in love." So, there ya go. To head the church of england up next ... you're getting charles.

God wasn't looking?

Or was he just laughing his head off at what "blessings" get misread?

Call me a none-believer, but it wouldn't be true.

Because I know God has a sense of humor! He's always teaching.

And, you want to call me "the fool?" Be my guest. For I care not what you do.

A better belief system, though, would make a lot of you much kinder. (Like shooting fish in a barrel.)

Carol_Herman said...

Oh, my goodness! David R. Graham at 1:01 PM ... on his second post. You just took my breath away.

You don't often come here.

And, I only come to joke.

But you're the man I remember! From the time you spoke about how Ann should take much more seriously ... why crying out "police, police" ... Or even going "all lawyer." Was the wrong response.

Those are the moments at this blog that make everything worth it.

EVERYTHING!

Palladian said...

It's now acceptable to threaten people with physical violence while hurling racist epithets 'round these parts?

Carol_Herman said...

Young Hegelian @ 1:07 PM ...

What's with calling out "buddy?"

You're taking lessons from the out-of-control justice up on the Wisonsin supreme's?

You're so far off base ... you should borrow Ann Walsh-Bradley's blue glasses. People would notice you coming!

And, remember to check that your fly is zippered, too.

David R. Graham said...

"Sorry, David, the various sects can speak for themselves and Heaven and Hell are very important concepts in their soterology, whether you like it or not."

True, heaven and hell are concepts of importance to sects. Christianity is sect-less and concepts, such as heaven and hell, have no soteriological power. Ultimately, they are ideas become idols.

Finally, Dante is a Third Order Franciscan poet using a literary framework derived from Middle Eastern angelolotry -- not Christian theological articulation -- to explore existential phenomenology this side of essential reality. Today it would be called psychology with a bit of political science, law and sociology mixed in. It would still be great art because it expresses human experience in a compelling, elevating way. But of soteriological power and theological depth it has none.

ricpic said...

One wants to talk about heaven? OK, one enters it every time one hopes for something, fantasizes something, expects something.

Schopenhauer disagrees, fundamentally. The only chance to experience heaven, if only momentarily, is to step outside the endless round of hoping, fantasizing, expecting, or what he called willing. Aesthetic contemplation, that's the only way one can get off the treadmill. Because aesthetic contemplation is fundamentally disinterested. The will is quieted.

I agree with Shopenhauer with the caveat that finding heaven in art, or the contemplation of art, tends toward worship of art: idolatry.

jeff said...

As a agnostic, I dont spend much time worrying about the rapture. As I understand it, accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is a requirement to be included. Which means even if someone is a good person but is a non believer, they are not part of the resurrection. But that means that God is kind of petty and vain. Which is kind of strange for a Omnipotent being who created everything. Which brings me back to being a agnostic who doesn't have to fight with such contradictions. As a non militant agnostic, I have no problem if someone else does have beliefs though.

YoungHegelian said...

@David,

Do you ever feel lonely walking around believing in your faith with one adherent?

Or, is just not a problem, because you''re so certain you've got a lock on the truth that the rest of us mortals lack?

Unknown said...

I await your book report! It sounded interesting to me too when I read about it...then I thought, it's probably standard sophomoric anti-Christian stuff.

Like the new Good Christian Belles formerly named Bitches. Eeuuuw.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is a requirement to be included. Which means even if someone is a good person but is a non believer, they are not part of the resurrection. But that means that God is kind of petty and vain.

I got into a lot of trouble with the Jesuit Fathers and the nuns in catechism class at the age of 8 years old or so. Constantly questioning this premise.

"How can it be fair to doom people who have never heard of Christ?"

"What about all the people who lived before Christ? The Romans and Greeks? Did they all go to Hell?"

"What about the people who are good, kind and grew up in other religions like Hindu?"

"Is God so mean that he dooms good people to hell, because they were born at the wrong time or in the wrong place? What kind of mean God is that!?!?!"

"What if there are people on other planets. After all if God made the Universe, how do those people know about Christ? Did Christ go to EVERY planet in the universe?"

"What about the planets he didn't have time to get around to visiting. Are they ALL doomed to go to Hell?"

I didn't do so good in class. I'm sure the Nuns and the Fathers were glad to see me go.

David R. Graham said...

"I agree with Shopenhauer with the caveat that finding heaven in art, or the contemplation of art, tends toward worship of art: idolatry."

I too agree with Schopenhauer on this because he is making my point in different language, sort of. For what it's worth, I like Schopenhauer's work very much, to a point.

The decisive point is your caveat. When the force of that is realized through to its end, the very large body of opinion that the contemplation of art is comparable to or even better than completion or fulfillment itself shatters. Aesthetic experience, like every other kind, can be a foretaste of liberation but like every experience, including religious experience, is it fleeting and not really liberation (salvation, unity) itself.

traditionalguy said...

David R Graham... As Christians we see Heaven(s) and Hades to be revelations of places that man has no other way to know of without a revelation.

And what good would a religious faith be without an answer to man's problem of death?

The Apostles Creed that Presbyterians over the world recited this morning proclaims that "Jesus ...suffered under Pontius Pilate, died and was buried. He descended into Hell, the third day he rose again from the dead..."

Why fear men's belief in that faith?

The result of that faith is to honor all men since God loves and honors all men through Christ's sacrifice to death on a cross in their place and their full acceptance by His son's resurrection in their place if they accept it.
That acceptance is what the Baptism of a believer means.

YoungHegelian said...

@DBQ,

The good priests and nuns of your youth, like most of modern Christianity, blanched from dropping the full impact of predestination on your young mind.

Suffice to say, until the last 400 years or so, the Christian Churches would have unequivocally stated that those unbelievers are generally screwed.

The mainstream sects have since lightened up on the matter, but they have to use some real stretches of exegesis to square God's lighter hand with the tradition.

A great read on the subject can be found at:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Owes-Us-Nothing-Jansenism/dp/0226450538/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314557980&sr=8-1

Buy it on Amazon through our hostess!

David R. Graham said...

"Do you ever feel lonely walking around believing in your faith with one adherent?

Or, is just not a problem, because you''re so certain you've got a lock on the truth that the rest of us mortals lack?"

Hegel would not ask such questions. He knew that one is never lonely and he was certain Prussia of his day was the advancing tip of the spear of universal dialectical self-development by the Whole.

Hegel said: "The truth is the whole." He was restating Parmenides on the necessity of logos. Kierkegaard and Marx, both students of Hegel, blew out Hegel's absolutism with existential questions, but both also pursued the whole. One is never lonely.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Carol:It was theory when Feynman proposed it. Not any more!

I sense I'm wasting my time, but let me try again. It's an ANALOGY. Like when Jesus said He was a gate, or when God said Jerusalem was a woman, that's why Feynman was saying you could patch the bottom of a black hole. It's an ANALOGY, not literal, describing how to deal with a non-integrable quantity.

Bender said...

"I'm not sure what's more annoying . . . non-Christians who think that it is a really important concept for the bulk of Christians around the world."

Thank you. Finally, some sense and knowledge. Although I would use the modern vernacular "lame" or the Althouseian "bullshit" in place of "annoying."

Says the guy who clearly does not have a clue about what he's talking about, going on to repeatedly spew lame annoying BS.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@DBQ:I got into a lot of trouble with the Jesuit Fathers and the nuns in catechism class at the age of 8 years old or so. Constantly questioning this premise.

It's not a premise of Catholocism and hasn't been for sometime. When the Pope was Cardinal Ratzinger he explained this very well here.

Bender said...

DBQ --

The error that people have is in understanding what is meant by "accepting Jesus Christ." The true understanding is to be found in Mt. 25:31-46, where among those who are saved are those who loved Jesus even though did not even realize it. It is in the heart, not the head, where true acceptance occurs. True acceptance of Jesus, the true Christian, is one who has accepted Love and Truth in his or her heart, even if his or her fallible head believes otherwise. This would include those people who never heard of Christ because they lived before He was even born, and those good faith people who have heard of Him, but have have been misled by teaching, culture, etc. into non-belief. Conversely, the one who has truly rejected Christ includes the one who may, like the Pharisees, outwardly profess to believe, but is dead and empty inside.

As Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, as explained --
20. . . . “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”.77 This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.78

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God's plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82

21. With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.83

--Dominus Iesus

Thus, you see true Christians all the time who will pray for the souls of non-believers who have died or are dying.

caplight said...

Traditional Guy
The Apostles Creed which we recited in our church today as well also states that Christians believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. Of course the Apostles Creed was just put together a few years ago to help boost book sales for the Left Behind series and is only recited by a few small Protestant groups.

YoungHegelian said...

@GH

I don't read that article as optimistically as you do. Cardinal Ratzinger starts off by stating the modern view that salvation is available outside the Church, and then immediately starts discussing the contradiction it engenders (i.e. why bother to do the hard work of a Christian life is there's an easier road).

He tries to resolve the issue by saying that we need to see the living of a Christian life as not a burden but a blessing. Which is a nice thing to say, but flies in the face of experience. It's just damn hard to be good.

This is a excerpt of a sermon. It's not an extended work on justification. DBQ's problems still remain.

Bender said...

From the Catechism, an authoritative summary of doctrine --

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

YoungHegelian said...

@Bender,

Thank you for posting some authoritative RC texts on the issue. For those who are not Christian, what Bender has posted would apply to the RC, Orthodox, Lutheran, & Anglican professions.

It does not apply to the Calvinist and Fundamentalist traditions.

Notice, however, the line from the catechism:

"..but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace...

That phrase "moved by grace" is very deliberate. What it means is that, while the notion of an "Invisible Church" may salve the conscience on the issue of virtuous pagans, there is still the always "invisible" but very thorny issue of who God gives His grace to, i.e. predestination.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Jeff:

Everyone gets cause-and-effect backward.

We don't go to heaven because we're good. We're good because we're on our way to heaven.

Same with hell; we don't go there because we're bad; we're bad because we're on our way to hell.

We're good to the extent we cooperate with grace--which is God's eternal love, acting in time; and we're bad to the extent we resist it.

Now, supposing you follow the promptings of grace, all the way to heaven; and, having followed the "trail of breadcrumbs" as it were, until the final step, your eyes bug out when you realize it has been Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity all the time.

Why should you object? And why should He?

That's how it works.

Fr Martin Fox said...

FYI, John Hagee is on TBN right at this moment. I don't agree with him of course, but he's awfully entertaining.

He always has these amazing displays behind him. This one isn't nearly as good as his charts showing how the Rapture works.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

It's not a premise of Catholocism and hasn't been for sometime.

Yes. I know. I wasn't talking about the Rapture (which I had never heard anything about until I was an adult) but more about the idea that if you weren't baptized or a part of the Catholic faith, you were doomed.

Define...some time. I'm talking about over 50 years ago that I was in catechism classes and I was a doubtful little kid.

:-D

Anonymous said...

No one knows when the Rapture will come.

Kirk Parker said...

Fr Martin,

I never watch Hagee (or any other TV preacher (because I don't watch any TV at all)). Are his visual aids in the tradition of Clarence Larkin, or something different?

Kirk Parker said...

Gabriel,

" But Rapture is a minority Christian belief that has somehow been attributed to all Christians by the media, probably because it sounds nutty."

I was with you, up until that last part--you can't really expect me to believe that of our wonderful, professional media, can you?

David R. Graham said...

"True acceptance of Jesus, the true Christian, is one who has accepted Love and Truth in his or her heart, even if his or her fallible head believes otherwise."

Manicheism, division of personal unity into good heart and bad mind. Could be good body and bad soul. Or good finger nail and bad hair. Doesn't matter. The error is the division of an indivisible and an opposing value judgement imposed on the pieces.

Additionally, no one can "accept" Jesus the Christ. No one has the power to do that. This core Pelagianism of "fundementalist"/"evangelical"/"born again" so-called Christianity is the entry portal for an array of concatenating insanities, to include the on-post for this thread, "rapture."

David R. Graham said...

"That's how it works."

Yes it is.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Kirk:

Yes! But full color; really lurid stuff!

Known Unknown said...

Do you eat Cadillacs, Lincolns, too, Mercurys and Subarus?