"Being naked was the only way Osama Bin Laden could have avoided being killed, it emerged today. The elite U.S. Navy Seals team that killed him was told to assume he was wearing a suicide vest if he was clothed, according to a briefing given to a congressional aide."
But he was in his pajamas, so, no matter what he did, he was doomed.
ADDED: Instapundit links, saying: "OTHER NIGHT I SHOT OSAMA IN HIS PAJAMAS. How I wound up in his pajamas I’ll never know...." That flickered through my head too.
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 305 of 305I need to proof before psoting. :)
Driver -- I do know that Mississippi was not a signatory to the Constitution of 1789, though. So I got that goin' for me. Which is nice.
Joe, you wrote...
Mississippi wanted to count ALL slaves for population, but NONE as citizens. It LIMITED the power of slave holding states….try reading the Constitution and reading some history, and leave the TPM talking points at home.
edutcher wrote: No, shiloh, J, Jeremy, or whomever else you are, I just thought you might have some dazzling new insight.
Silly me.
You are beyond silly, edutcher (or Ritmo, Alpha, pb&j or whoever you are). LOL
(The Crypto Jew)
Oh so your point is that when I pointed out MS. And it wasn’t one of the original 13 that PROVED something, right? What did it prove other than I chose my example poorly…let me restate then, when VIRGINIA joined under the 3/5ths Rule it was compromise designed to limit the population and power of the slave holding states, MS. Joined UNDER the extant Constitution, INCLUDING the 3/5ths rule and hence it was judged in the same manner for purposes of determining population…..
(The Crypto Jew)
But yes MS wanted to count it’s slaves for population, but not citizenship, but the Constitution prevented that….If that’s the big “gotcha” you are in need of a better Gotcha.
That's stupid. Not shooting him; I think that's fine. But saying that the rules of engagement revolved around chance nakedness is, I think, silly.
They were supposed to go shoot him, and they did. Fin.
2: 54, Yr the fail, macho mouse-- Now, google or wiki "transparency"-- maybe yll get it after a few hours. But unlikely.
Another important consideration, BOB--the "what-makes-Lynne Cheney's- pussay--wet"- factor has been eliminated, mostly, amigo.
Oh, damn, we had a day without trolls and now J is here.
Ah, well, the intelligent discussion yesterday was a refreshing change.
hombre said...
edutcher wrote: No, shiloh, J, Jeremy, or whomever else you are, I just thought you might have some dazzling new insight.
Silly me.
You are beyond silly, edutcher (or Ritmo, Alpha, pb&j or whoever you are). LOL
Ritmo, Alpha, pb&j, that's you, of course.
(The Crypto Jew)
They were supposed to go shoot him, and they did. Fin.
But apparently Obama and his base are too squeamish to say it, Freeman, and so we have this constantly shifting “rationale” for shooting him. My complaint is with the constantly shifting facts and rationale, not the shooting him.
Joe -- It wouldn't be a big deal except that you are going on and on about how I allegedly haven't read the Constitution or any history. Then, you throw out the example of Mississippi as a state bargaining for the 3/5 compromise. Which makes you look pretty stupid in light of your highfalutin demands that I read things. Which is hilarious.
Jesus, J. Epic fail. Sad.
I don't believe that rich, selfish bastard would walk around with a suicide vest. More likely, it's made up like one of those urban legends. Wonder what they call urban legends in camel jockey land?
This story is changing too fast. Did they not agree upon the spin BEFORE the operation?
And these are the same people who complained Bush didn't have a plan in place after we took Baghdad so quickly.
Obama & Jarret didn't expect Panetta to pull the trigger on this. They didn't even know he already had the principals in place ready to go.
The timeline does seem to back up the DC Insider scoop. Incompetence incomptence, then a flash competence (because Panetta/Clinton/Petraeus were at the wheel), then back to incompetence once Jarret/Obama were given back helm.
(The Crypto Jew)
My bad…you’re still incorrect in your 3/5th rule argument, nonetheless….but hey I F*cked up…..
Get Naked and Live!
Fen:
Well and concisely said. Ditto!
Bye for now, friends, but I think I'll come back for more Althouse comments soon, this has been fun.
Seven, I don't understand why you are insulting people over their ignorance. They seem to be asking questions in good faith.
For example, despite your remarks about the ICC, don't we still have US officials that refuse to step foot in certain Euro nations for fear they will be arrested as "war criminials" ?
October 19, 2005
"A Spanish judge issued an international arrest warrant Wednesday for three U.S. soldiers, charging them with murder in the death of Spanish TV cameraman Jose Couso in Baghdad, Iraq.
They are wanted for "murder" and "a crime against the international community," according to the warrant,
In the past, European courts have issued indictments for war crimes for U.S. officials, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Gen. Wesley Clark and other military officers. The United States does not turn over its soldiers.
A lawyer for Couso's family told CNN+ she doubted the warrant would have much practical effect.
She said she understood the United States would not extradite the men and they stood little chance of arrest unless they left the United States."
http://articles.cnn.com/2005-10-19/world/spain.us.soldiers_1_arrest-warrant-jose-couso-cameraman?_s=PM:WORLD
Lady Gaga wrote : "What a historical moment in the fight against hatred."
MEMO:
RE: Correct speech
No longer use GWOT. Please remove from accepted acronyms
Please replace with GWOH
Didn't know you had a baby, Seven. I missed that if it came up before.
Congrats!
A lawyer for Couso's family told CNN...
Note that, despite the ridiculous charge, the troops still needed to lawyer up.
(The Crypto Jew)
So now we have Usama was “dazed and confused”…”pushed his wife towards the troops”…”Had a AK-47 and a Makarov within arm’s reach”……Folks find a story and stick with it!
Again, I’m fine if, in Treacher’s words, he had a plate of warm fresh-baked cookies in his hand and was offering the SEALs tea….but please find A story and let’s try to stick with it…plus the video feed, no video feed, a video feed but it cut out…I don’t care if they watched in HD TV or just had relayed information a la Carter and Desert One/Eagle Claw, but could we decide whether or not we saw the operation on Late Nite Infrared or not?
Even though OBL's house looks like a dump, the White House insists it's a mansion. Now we understand why they gave the kill order on him: he wasn't paying his fair share.
Get naked and live!
Great bumpersticker.
Better some transparency --ie Obama admin--than none, ie BushCo
As the clusterfuck, re-clusterfuck, and triple-dipped-clusterfuck PR from the White House shows, some transparency has proven to undermine their message. Conflicting stories, etc, have made them look incompetent in the aftermath of a successful and daring military operation.
I would prefer finding out the details much, much later than what these amateurs are doling out. To compound that, the latest is that they have stopped commenting on further details. How's that transparency for you?
This from a White House that receives a transparency award during small closed ceremony. The number of FOIA requests processed by this administration have been less than stellar compared to previous administrations.
edutcher wrote: Ritmo, Alpha, pb&j, that's you, of course.
Oh, is that your version of "I know you are, but what am I?"
So you're not Ritmo, you're really PeeWee Herman. Back to the playhouse PeeWee. I'm no lefty.
Btw, do you think the pajama order was real? Or that Osama dead has more propaganda value, etc., than Osama alive? Or that there is no need for the WH to clarify the falsehoods perpetrated by "administration sources" to the media?
Do you think at all? :>)
Better some transparency --ie Obama admin--than none, ie BushCo
As yes, reach for the Tu Quoque
"Doesn't matter that Obama was an incompetent buffoon because in my imagination, Bush was much worse"
Headline: "Bin Laden killed, Bush blamed"
The OBL kill was a win for all of us. We should still be feeling proud about our military and the fact that our government, in this instance, did a great job.
Some of the criticisms from within America sound worse than the criticisms coming from Pakistan.
Personally, I just feel a little patriotic and really grateful right now. I'm also staring to resent people who seem to be trying to take that away for partisan purposes.
Personally, I just feel a little patriotic and really grateful right now. I'm also staring to resent people who seem to be trying to take that away for partisan purposes.
Hello, Mr. Axelrod. Welcome to the thread.
Here's the same pattern, via
http://schotline.us/2009/04/19/navy-seals-save-the-day-president-obama-indecisive/
1.) President Obama wouldn’t authorize the DEVGRU/NSWC SEAL teams to the scene for 36 hours going against OSC (on scene commander) recommendation.
2.) Once they arrived, President Obama imposed restrictions on their “Rules Of Engagement” (ROE) that prohibited the Navy from doing anything unless the hostage’s life was in “imminent” danger.
3.) The first time the hostage jumped, the SEALS had the pirates in their sights but could not fire due to ROE restrictions.
4.) When the Navy RIB came under fire as it approached with supplies, no fire was returned due to ROE restrictions. As the pirates were shooting at the RIB, they were exposed and the SEALS had them.
5.) President Obama specifically denied two rescue plans developed by the Bainbridge CPN and SEAL teams.
6.) Bainbridge CPN and SEAL team CDR finally decide they have the OpArea and OSC authority to solely determine risk to hostage. 4 hours later, 3 dead pirates.
7.) President Obama immediately claims credit for his “daring and decisive” behavior. Which seems to be usual for him. It’s Bull S^!t, and the media allows him to get away with it.
/ends
Dovetail this account with the one we're gettting from DC Insider.
Just because one has the ability to talk, doesn't mean that one should talk.
I'd expect Biden to blather unnecesarily just because the man can't shut up. But it seems the ENTIRE administration continues to put out one load of unnecesary information after another. It makes them (and by extension our country) look like a bunch of weanie hand-wringers. Where is the discipline? Stick to the following: OBL is dead. We killed him. It was a good thing for America and those who abhor terrorism. Minute details of the actual raid are not necessary.
7.) President Obama immediately claims credit for his “daring and decisive” behavior. Which seems to be usual for him. It’s Bull S^!t, and the media allows him to get away with it.
You figure, you will get blasted for the claimed illegality of the action, so why not at least take credit for the result.
The problem with Obama is that he took too much credit. The mission was a no brainer. The culmination of ten years of work. Making the call anyother way was not an option.
The credit given to Obama should be for continuing the policy of attacking terrorists in the region rather than withdrawing. The Bin Ladin mission is just one more mission in the larger war.
Since Obama claimed that killing Bin Ladin will make us all safer, that gives a greem light to Republicans to offer even more spending cuts. After all, since we are all safer, we will be more prosperous and able to afford more spending cuts.
OBL was killed? On what do you base that assertion?
Barry said so....or something.
The SEALs did not shoot Osama because they were afraid Osama might hurt them, they shot him because they were ordered to do so. Almost certainly the SEALs were ordered to kill Osama because Obama did not want to stick Osama in Guatanamo and deal with the political pain from his fellow lefties.
An expected value analysis dictates trying to take Osama alive. That is, balance the risk that Osama kills some SEALs while being apprehended vs the much, much larger number of lives that you save by capturing Osama alive and interrogating him (thus catching lots of terrorists and preventing lots of terror and the resultant deaths).
Somebody asked if I am related to the famous libertarian Koch's. Not that I know of.
Spain is pretty irritating about prosecuting war crimes and crimes against humanity (even when they don't seem to have any standing to do so).
Sloanasaurus - yeah, no brainer - that's the problem with the pictures, right? Assuming there are any pictures.
It's my understanding that the 3/5ths was a compromise between the north, who did not want slaves counted at all to reduce the representation granted to the southern states, and the south, who wanted slaves counted as a whole person to increase their clout in Congress.
Is this incorrect?
This is what you get with a White House full of noncombatents (and/or draft dodgers).
Any combat soldier will tell you that if they don’t immediately surrender, they are dead. Otherwise, your wife will be (may be) getting a letter from the President regreating your death at enemy hands. You cannot delay. You cannot hesitate. You must act decisively. Often “immediately” comes and goes in an eyeblink.
Former Captain.
Oh, didn't realize we had jumped a page. Damn blogger.
How many law degrees does it take to turn triumph into disaster?
This is analogous to the assassination of Admiral Yamamoto. It sure was unsporting of us to ambush the guy and make sure he went down in flames.
As long as they yelled "It's coming right for us," they are all good.
There was nothing disastrous about this that I can see except a bunch of partisans saying this was disastrous.
"They had to shoot Osama bin Laden because he was not naked."
Another incredibly stupid statement made by a so-called 'journalist'.
So we have complete nincompoops passing themselves off as congressional aides and we have idiot 'journalists' that are more than happy to be spoon-fed this silliness.
If a journalist doesn't ask tough questions, then you can be sure they are in for the fix.
The media-at-large is a joke.
phx: There was nothing disastrous about this that I can see except a bunch of partisans saying this was disastrous.
via
http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/05/04/the-obama-administrations-cloud-of-confusion-explained/
1) There was a firefight.
2) There was no firefight.
3) Bin Laden was “resisting.”
4) Bin Laden wasn’t armed. (Makes the concept of “resisting” interesting.)
[4.a) And the newest one: the SEALS thought bin Laden was reaching for a weapon.]
5) He used his wife as a shield.
6) His wife was killed too.
7) He didn’t use his wife as a shield. She ran at a SEAL who shot her in the leg, but she’s fine.
8 ) Some other woman — the maid? — was used as a shield. By somebody. Downstairs.
9) That other woman — downstairs — was killed.
10) Maybe not. She was killed unless she wasn’t — and who was she, anyway?
11) Bin Laden’s son was killed.
12) Unless it was some other guy.
13) Bin Laden’s daughter saw him get killed. She’s undoubtedly traumatized, poor dear.
14) They were going to capture Bin Laden until the problem with the helicopter, which was:
A) It had mechanical trouble
B) It did a hard landing
C) It crashed
D) It clipped a wall with a tail rotor, effectively a crash
15.) They were never going to try to capture him; it was always a kill mission.
16.) No, it wasn’t.
17) The chopper blew up.
18) The SEALs blew it up.
19.) Panetta said yesterday the world needed proof and the photo would be released.
20.) Obama said today in an interview he taped with Steve Kroft for “60 Minutes” to be broadcast Sunday that it won’t be released. It’s too gruesome, would offend Muslim sensibilities (something he worries about a lot — I personally do not give a warm fart on a wet Wednesday about Muslim sensibilities), and how would Americans feel if Muslims released pictures of dead Americans?
21.) Kroft — who’s not a total idiot — pointed out that ever since “Black Hawk Down” days, Muslims have been doing precisely that, filming American bodies being dragged through the streets, filming Daniel Pearl’s head being cut off, filming any and everything.
22) Obama gets pissed at CBS, the tape gets cleaned up, that question disappears. (Inside info.)
23.) We got a “treasure trove” of stuff from hard drives, etc.
24.) There were no phone lines, and no internet access at the “mansion,” they didn’t even have TV — what “treasure trove?”
25.) There is obviously in the pictures of the place a large satellite dish. I guess they used it for making salads.
26.) And now, just today: apparently the idea was to capture him, but only if he was naked. There was a suspicion he might be wearing a suicide bomber type explosive vest, or belt. So if he’s not naked and you can’t see if he has a vest on or not – shoot him.
"This is analogous to the assassination of Admiral Yamamoto."
Not really. Capturing Yamamoto was not an option. The only option was to shoot down Yamamoto's plane.
In the Osama killing, the SEALs had fought their way through the house and killed all the Osama defenders. When they got to the final room it contained only Osama and his wife. An attempt could have been made to capture Osama. He could have been shot in the legs, like his wife was shot (for example). She was wearing clothes but wasn't killed.
Fighting terrorism is all about getting critical information about the terrorists that is extremely difficult to obtain. Obama just willfully destroyed an ocean of useful information by killing Osama rather than try to capture him. Almost certainly he did this for political reasons. This is contemptible.
There was nothing disastrous about this that I can see except a bunch of partisans saying this was disastrous.
The military aspect went off almost without a hitch. The political aspect has been a tad disastrous. I particularly enjoy not showing images of a dead bin Laden under the "we don't spike the football" clause, then going to Ground Zero, when you have never once been there before, to lay a wreath at the site. That smacks of pretty hardcore spiking, not to mention an Obama-shuffle just to make sure they understand.
Naked self-promotion, yet somehow apt.
and how would Americans feel if Muslims released pictures of dead Americans?
A CBS interviewer asked Obama about this, stating that the Muslims already do that.
Obama got angry and the question was cut from the clip.
Thats your work Palladian? Nicely done.
Obama was at Ground Zero once before today . . . or wasn't he in the plane that buzzed NYC?
Sheesh. Obama should just butch up and say "we put a bullet in his head because he deserved it. Some people need shooting, and this was one of them. Unless he and his flunkies--all of whom declared war on the US, and upon whom the US has declared war--took active measures to surrender, they were targets and we were trying our damndest to kill them. I'm buying those Seals a beer the next time they're in town."
Obama just willfully destroyed an ocean of useful information by killing Osama rather than try to capture him. Almost certainly he did this for political reasons. This is contemptible.
We captured all kinds of Nazi's and Japanese leaders and put them on trial and executed them. We did this with KSM and the other terrorist leaders who we "suprised" while they were in bed. We did it with Saddam also, who was armed.
We should have done that with Bin Ladin also. Instead, it appears we shot him in back of the head while he was unarmed and wearing his pajamas.
I totally support the mission and killing him. But we should be honest about it.
So, will Obama have to cancel now his European trips, like Bush had recently under threat of prosecution for "war crimes"?
Barry screwed up by ordering bin laden shot in the head!!!!!!!!!!! America hates this for any number of these bullshit reasons I just pulled out of my ass!!!!
"Thats your work Palladian? Nicely done."
Yes, it is. Thanks, Fen. I couldn't resist making a sketch of all those curious faces.
Garage: Barry screwed up by ordering bin laden shot in the head
Obama didn't order the hit, Panetta did.
The Navy, Army, Air Force and the CIA did a great job. Whoever they killed deserved it I am sure and I have no problem with the means and methods. They would know best.
THe best part of it is that now we can prove that we got Osama and no one can claim to be him or that he was tortured or abused because we have his body that can be examined by independant third party forensic experts to prove that it is indeed him and that he was not abused and ....and ....and ...errr...errr....nevermind.
Seriously, take a look at every Arab man. Even when they are dressed for lunch, or supper, or just talking around, they all look like they are wearing pajamas.
How insensitive for the local culture.
Fuck off, administration, and that includes you obama, you boy.
Obama is weak! Obama is a ruthless monster!!
He didnt order the kill. He did order the kill!
Layers! Kernels!
Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doesn't it get tiresome being tiresome all the time, garage?
"Obama is a ruthless monster!!"
I think you read that on those other sites you frequent. Not too many people arguing that here.
Always a pleasure to see how the liberals respond without their talking points.
Garage is reduced to shouting Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
or just talking around
Or, maybe, walking around. Of course you knew that didn't you? Not you, garage, but everyone else.
Osama bin Laden acted confused and cowardly?
So OBL was the cowardly lion?
Too bad Team Obama is acting confused as to what happened. Since it is totally messing up any proproganda victory for Team USA.
Are there any pictures of bin Laden in a leisure suit?
then going to Ground Zero, when you have never once been there before
The Obamas and McCains went together on 9/11/08. The Os tossed roses onto the memorial as if into a grave, the Ms placed theirs (at some risk McCain would fall and couldn't get up).
Palladian
You found my one comment in an ocean of garbage? You must have been searching hard. I'll try to do better.
Obama... All caca. No toro.
we had to shoot him to find out what's in him.
turns out he was full of mandates too.
Garage: It appears that the Europeans are more solid in their beliefs and are concerned that BHO's ordering the death of OBL violated something called international law. I am in favor of our president's actions but am a little disturbed that the left is OK with extra judicial killing but opposed to water boarding. The one apparently is legal and the other not.
I can see both being legal or both being illegal or murder being illegal and water boarding being legal but not the other way around.
"Palladian
You found my one comment in an ocean of garbage? You must have been searching hard. I'll try to do better."
Nah, this is just where I came in. Oceans of garbage, rivers of piss, it's just another day here at a blog called Althouse.
"Are there any pictures of bin Laden in a leisure suit?"
Close. He's second from right, in a light avocado-colored acrylic sweater and blue bell-bottoms.
"I am in favor of our president's actions but am a little disturbed that the left is OK with extra judicial killing but opposed to water boarding. The one apparently is legal and the other not."
It's not the action; it's who's president at the time.
disturbed that the left is OK with extra judicial killing but opposed to water boarding. The one apparently is legal and the other not.
I can see both being legal or both being illegal or murder being illegal and water boarding being legal but not the other way around.
Please don't do that.
Garage is still trying to wrap his mind around cheerleading an execution that was a result of Bush's use of enhanced interrogation techniques.
If his head explodes again, we're going to make you mop it up.
Ha! That river of piss sure has legs around here!
Palladian, don't do that to me, man.
Garage;
You found my one comment in an ocean of garbage? You must have been searching hard. I'll try to do better.
And apparently you missed the multiple comments that are in sync with this
But apparently Obama and his base are too squeamish to say it, Freeman, and so we have this constantly shifting “rationale” for shooting him. My complaint is with the constantly shifting facts and rationale, not the shooting him.
So yes, try harder
you do have to give Ol'Blood&GutsyCall.com some credit though.
wv: noepansi-I have no idea what Blogger is implying
"noepansi"
It's Obama's new campaign slogan.
This is what I think is the most likely way this thing went down:
Obama issued a "kill order" to the SEALs and they carried out his order. Obama was sure there would be some sort of resistence and so his order would remain a state secret and never become an issue.
But things didn"t quite turn out this way and the Obama people, realizing they could not come clean and admit that their Nobel Peace Prize winner had issued an assassination order, had to come up with some plausible story that explained what happened.
The problem is that the stories kept changing and White House lost credibility.
Knowing that the SEALs are sworn to secrecy about Obama's order, Obama and his people now seem to be willing to hang them out to dry.
Ok so I watched 10 mins of cable news in my hotel room after not seeing any news for 3 days. It's worse than I could have imagined. Off to get shit faced I think at this redneck bar across the street here in chattanooga. Wish me luck!
don't forget to gutsily call out the racists garage
My complaint is with the constantly shifting facts and rationale, not the shooting him.
Exactly!
Garage: at this nigger bar
Ah yes, the enlightened tolerant leftist revels in his bigoted racist stereotypes.
You mean all bars in the South aren't populated by knuckle-draggin', Palin lovin', shotgun totin' rednecks.
Well Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttt!
Maybe ill liveblog
I heard he was wearing shorts.
he was wearing capri pants, any man wearing capri pants should be shot
So how the heck did Andrew Lloyd Weber rhyme "farmer" with "pajama" in Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat?
Osama needed to die. I'm surprised Obama took 16 hours to sleep on it. He was probably hoping Osama would leave, so nothing would happen. I'm not surprised that this White House can be so apologetic about it, and manage to "win the war and lose the peace." What they need to say is "We shot Osama. If there is some crazy ass hole who thinks they are Osama and he's not really dead, identify yourself. We've got something for you."
Obama needs to say something like "Damn straight we shot him. We'll shoot you too if you give us too much grief." What a sissy.
So, can we "drag Osama in effigy?" Drag a bag of shit around, and then burn it?
Seven -- So your point is that the Constitution is fatally flawed because it found a compromise that allowed slave and free states to join?!? You would rather that two nations had formed? One slave and one free? Barring a war, which we had anyway, we might have had slavery in North America to this day!
Do you have any other moral objections to the Constitution other than the 3/5ths compromise?
By the way, if they were so worried that he was possibly wearing a suicide vest, why did they shoot him in the chest? Logic fail.
@Garage: Just don't bring up politics. I'm begging you, man. I'd be left to fend off Trooper by myself.
Who cares how they shot him- naked, clothed, armed, unarmed. Dead is dead. He got what he deserved.
Now it is time to discuss the real important issues- like the economy- you know the one thing that matters to each of us.
No - Groucho is what really matters - he was popular in the last great depression, so it is good to see him back for this one as well.
The economy? Is that why the Justice Department has sent a letter to the National Collegiate Athletic Association about how the National Champion of College Football is determined? Isn't that important too? Not who votes or doesn't, and where Boeing will build their next factory, but NCAA National College Football Championship?
This is why I always sleep in the nude. You never know when a hit squad might break into your stronghold, and the only thing stopping them from shooting you in the head is if they can see your family jewels.
For those curious about the bird:
Secret stealth Black Hawk
Secret stealth Black Hawk Used in Raid
Comment from Family Flier: 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (SOAR) gets all the cool toys!
Wish they'd been able to blow the whole thing up.
Oh thats right. We left another stealth aircraft design behind for the Chineese to reverse-engineer. I bet Obama puts that in the plus coloumn.
Why don't we just ask for the helicopter back? The Pakastanis are our allies, right?
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