"The goddess of frumpy wives and older mothers? The cancer patient who would not be defined by her disease? The noble, betrayed wife? The political operative whose complicity in covering up her husband’s infidelity could have cost the Democratic Party the presidency?"
Asks Jan Hoffman, in the NYT, on the day of Elizabeth Edwards's funeral.
December 11, 2010
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144 comments:
Someone who has had no impact on my life.
Oh God--enough with the Elizabeth Edwards shit--
get a grip Professor and move on.
I come to bury Ms Edwards not to praise her--
except when it comes to bog hits--you seem to be whoring for hits Professor--have some dencency--and no, I am not going to amazon to order shit to incease your income
but have a nice day
Because you are a NY Times reader, and the death of s stranger must be fraught with symbolic, personal meaning. We'll work through this together. We are here to validate you and your every little vanity.
CNN was broadcasting the the funeral live today.
The CNN newsperson hosting the hour of its broadcast said Elizabeth seemed like the kind of person you would want for your friend.
This is a significant analysis piece in the New York Times.
I admire the author because — full disclosure — she's the person who wrote that article about Meade and me. It seems to be her area to write about older women and their relationships.
"Because you are a NY Times reader, and the death of s stranger must be fraught with symbolic, personal meaning. We'll work through this together. We are here to validate you and your every little vanity."
Yes, that's the point. That was the point of the article about me too. Older women who read the NYT want to think through their own relationships via the subject of the article.
It seems to me that EE was all of those...
"Elizabeth seemed like the kind of person you would want for your friend."
Whatever else, not that. Elizabeth and John were kindred spirits, geniuses at image and appearance. Among other things, they could appear to be your friend.
The sad thing professor is--you believe this shit--
Feminism = the junior high school clique.
Ms. Althouse, aren't you capable of deciding what your own values and ideas are without consulting the junior high school clique?
I'd suggest again that you consider a visit to the local church, be it Baptist or Catholic or Presbyterian, if you're looking for moral guidance.
The junior high school clique seems a particularly empty place to go for this.
Shallow dishonest leftist, estranged wife of a failed senator, and a woman who used her victimhood to advance her pursuit of power. Yep, not the kind of person I want as a neighbor or a friend.
WV: muckrate - a NYT write who writes about old women.
And, like a junior high clique, they will be suitably cold and catty when Nancy Reagan passes.
If you didn't like Elizabeth or if you didn't care about Elizabeth why take it out on the Professor?
Just walk away like Obama, living Clinton in Charge.
I never met the woman, but I'll bet that her and her husband wouldn't have given me the time of day.
"With her warm smile, left-leaning advocacy, generous hips ..."
Generous hips? Honest to god, who would continue reading past that point?
She was a celebrity of no interest, but evidently of concern to the MSM target audience.
Dilbert yesterday.
May you live in interesting times.
Professor Althouse is not simply a reader of the NYT, but one its products. She is occasionally show-cased via links to her Blogging Heads appearances.
The Amazon angle is fascinating to me. It's like a tip jar with the positive reinforcement of getting something with your tip. What you are getting depends on how you look at it, and what the item costs.
It's a smart business angle by Amazon and creates sorts of bonds on the net. Intriguing.
I remember Cris Mathews and Elisabeth Edwards sandbagging Ann Coulter on Cris Mathews show.
Elisabeth was a political force as the video clearly shows.
lol 'the MSM target audience.'
To me Elizabeth Edwards is a person liberal women like to attack because they feel guilty about voting for Obama.
"This is a significant analysis piece in the New York Times."
Of course. every 'analysis piece' in the New York Times is really really really significant!
In my world EE stands for electrical engineer.
People care about the death of Elizabeth Edwards for the same reason we have the Queen of Mediocrity as the Secretary of State. 'Cause women feel bad for her.
Had she survived, she could have run for office in any state populated by enough feamle 40+ "People"-readers.
The NY Times is The View for people who can still read.
Yes, that's the point. That was the point of the article about me too. Older women who read the NYT want to think through their own relationships via the subject of the article.
Yes, Althouse. We Dittoheads call this "chickefication."
In my world EE stands for electrical engineer.
Same. EE would not understand the work of EE.
What would the Prophet Dylan say about Edwards?
That's really the most important question.
Should she have screwed around? Should she have joined a group of ball busting feminists? Should she have gone on Ohpra to ream out her husband? (Did she? I never watch Ohpra.)
Oh, great Prophet Dylan, where in your sacred texts may we find the answer?
Tell us, oh great Prophet Dylan, what would a proper Boho do in the shoes of Edwards?
Generous hips?
I can't wait for MoDo to latch on to that one.
I'm an older woman and were I EE, I would have exposed that two-faced bastard in a heart beat and taken him to the cleaners.
However, I'm not a genteel NYT reader.
I'm an older woman and were I EE, I would have exposed that two-faced bastard in a heart beat and taken him to the cleaners.
Well, now, there's an option that I hadn't considered. What would the Prophet Dylan say?
Not that I would know.
Edwards was fantastically wealthy from her husband's labor. Other than exacting revenge, what would this option do for her?
She didn't need any more money or property.
Even if her husband was taken to the cleaners, he'd still be fantastically wealthy.
EE was interested in political power and apparently, she was prepared to do almost anything to achieve it. Pardon me if I'm not an admirer.
Elizabeth's daughter read from a letter her mother wrote to them at the funeral.. moving stuff.
I don't know who the author Jan Hoffman is, but that was a very good article. Interesting, honest and fair. Not what you would expect in the NYTimes about a big time liberal.
I disagreed with Elizabeth Edwards' politics by my main criticisms were: (1) her obvious participation in the deception by her husband, both with the affair and more generally; and (2) her thinking that what she had to say was so important - two memoirs?
TJSawyer said:
Generous hips? Honest to god, who would continue reading past that point?
Wouldn't it be ironic if Jan Hoffman had generous hips?
Even more hilarious would be stingy hips.
Lem Said "I remember Chris Mathews and Elisabeth Edwards sandbagging Ann Coulter on Cris Mathews show."
Yeah I remember that show also. Any sympathy for I had EE evaporated at that point. She is/was just like like her husband. A power hungry fraud.
the left
If only Elizabeth had looked like Palin..
the right
If only Palin had half of Elizabeth's brain..
Elizabeth Edwards and Rielle Hunter both made choices when it came to John Edwards. Choices which, though not without blessing, came with a cost. Both offered their wombs as home to his offspring, both brought to term a daughter with his DNA, both participated in covering over the truth of his actions to help John Edwards advance his career.
Two women, each dealt a different hand, each involved in choices and outcomes which adversely affected each other, a man, a family and a nation.
Under whose rules is respect determined and doled out to others?
If Elizabeth's children and Rielle's daughter are able to sort their way through whatever deceit was perpetuated to lead lives of integrity, service and love, I will consider them to be not only surivors, but heros.
@shoutingthomas
Other than exacting revenge, what would this option do for her?
Exactly what is wrong with extracting revenge from a man who has destroyed your life for his own gratification?
She didn't need any more money or property.
I would have donated every dollar I could squeeze out of him to women's refuge centers to turn his evil into good.
If one no longer wants to be married then get a divorce or don't marry at all, but don't leave wreckage behind as if human beings are disposable.
I am a person and wife, not a carpet or a used Kleenex.
I wonder how comes no one's speculating about John and Reille. Will they end up together now that Elizabeth has shuffled off this mortal coil?
Normally I wouldn't indulge in this kind of crass speculation especially since they just planted the poor woman but really that's a lot more interesting than post-menopausal musings about romantic relationships in the golden years.
This NYT fascination with the sexual mores of the rich and powerful, especially if they happen to be southerners with a bit of morality left in their professed culture, is mostly female wish fulfillment pornography. The men like the heroes of detective novels, and the women like the risk taking and suffering woman/wife as a heroine in their reading material.
Exactly what is wrong with extracting revenge from a man who has destroyed your life for his own gratification?
This is what you think happened. I have the feeling that Edwards didn't consider her life to be destroyed. Don't know for sure because I didn't know her.
Extracting revenge extracts a very heavy price from the avenger. Maybe Edwards didn't want to pay the price.
If one no longer wants to be married then get a divorce or don't marry at all, but don't leave wreckage behind as if human beings are disposable.
Well, everybody thinks differently about these things. I seriously doubt whether Edwards thought of herself as wreckage.
I am a person and wife, not a carpet or a used Kleenex.
Why does what another woman chose to do enrage you so? You weren't married to John Edwards. His behavior had nothing to do with you.
He doesn't seem like a very admirable character to me, but his wife may (and apparently did) see him much differently than you do.
It was not that long ago that it was common for powerful, rich men to father children by many women. That was consider one of the perks of power and wealth. Some women are really turned on by that. I'm not saying Edwards was one of them, but she might have been.
Interestingly, feminism has turned this paradigm on its head, asserting that only a pig would object to a woman wanting to screw as many men as she wants, and asserting that only a complete fascist would object to a woman bearing children by multiple men.
You own
Personal
Edwards.
Someone who can make you share,
Someone who cares.
"The political operative whose complicity in covering up her husband’s infidelity could have cost the Democratic Party the presidency?"
Looks like Crack will have to take a few whacks at Jan Hoffman.
T J Sawyer said...
"With her warm smile, left-leaning advocacy, generous hips ..."
Generous hips? Honest to god, who would continue reading past that point?
You're a better man than I, TJ. They would have lost me at 'left-leaning advocacy'.
Left-leaning(?). More like shove you off the left-hand side of the road. Lem is right about her political presence; she was a very savvy marketer of her husband's ambition and a no-holds-barred political infighter, often writing on Puffington.
When a "famous" person dies I feel uncomfortable and intrusive. Any sorrow expressed is certainly a lie or else it's a travesty. What sort of person feels real loss of someone who is not even a friend? Sympathy, yes. Sympathy for the living is different. Empathy for those who must be feeling real pain is something anyone can feel. But how can any claim to sharing that pain be something other than an outright lie?
Who was my Elizabeth Edwards? I didn't have one. It's weird and uncomfortable and unseemly to me to pretend that I had an Elizabeth Edwards. A goddess of frumpy wives? I hadn't noticed her as frumpy. Not defined by her disease? In what reality is that a reasonable statement? Noble while betrayed? Where was the nobility?
My grandmother's life would be more useful for the world to visit than Elizabeth Edwards, and I would be similarly appalled if anyone expressed some feigned sorrow over it. The loss for those who actually lose their loved one is forever more.
The rest of us... not so much.
"When a "famous" person dies I feel uncomfortable and intrusive. Any sorrow expressed is certainly a lie or else it's a travesty. What sort of person feels real loss of someone who is not even a friend?"
Yes, especially if it's an older person or someone who was expected to die soon, it's probably phony to act as if the death -- as opposed to the idea of Death, generally -- is having an effect on you. I've reacted to many deaths in the 7 years I've been writing this blog, and to me, it's mostly a prompt to reflect on the person's whole life. What did that celebrity do that was interesting or what effect did that person have on the culture or on me? I think it's absolutely legitimate to react to the news of a death that way. To react with shock to news of a death -- when it's not someone young or someone you know -- is to pose as a naif. Surely, you've heard of death?
heh.
Althouse just called Synova Surely..
@shoutingthomas
He doesn't seem like a very admirable character to me
You think?
I volunteer at a battered woman center and see the wreckage the John Edwardses of the world leave behind. So yes, I am angry that EE allowed herself to be portrayed as a victim and/or a saint.
Then what does one say to poor and undereducated women with children living in terrible situations? What message is this phony baloney public sorrow sending them?
As to JE and EE, I could care less what has and will happen to them, about that you are correct, it means nothing to me.
However I care very much about the 33 year old abused woman with four children we took in this week. Her husband was not much worse than Edwards, except he was poor and she powerless.
Perhaps you get it now?
Personally, I have no reason to be angry, I have good health, a great husband/best friend, a happy life and friends for which I feel blessed.
I remember overreacting when John John died.
Johnny and Rielle must be feeling a profound relief. EE was a force to be reckoned with. What should a person's reaction be if they were to meet Johnny and Rielle, on a cruise say? Do they get the Prince Charles and Camilla treatment?
Duchess Camilla.
John-John hit me pretty hard, too.
Wasn't Elizabeth Edwards all of the above, and much more? People are complex, and reducing a complex individual such as Elizabeth Edwards down to a sound bite may be comforting for a journalist, but only because the journalists themselves are fairly limited intellectually.
I volunteer at a battered woman center and see the wreckage the John Edwardses of the world leave behind. So yes, I am angry that EE allowed herself to be portrayed as a victim and/or a saint.
I don't know of any evidence to suggest that John Edwards battered Elizabeth Edwards.
Then what does one say to poor and undereducated women with children living in terrible situations? What message is this phony baloney public sorrow sending them?
John and Elizabeth Edwards had no obligation to be a role model for undereducated women. They were not obligated to send messages with their relationship.
What they did within their relationship, so long as it was within the law, was their own business.
So, no, I don't understand your angry reaction at all.
@BJM, there was a time, in living memory, when calling a man a wife-beater put him among the lowest of the low. How'd we get away from that?
Keep up the good work. Does your organization have a PayPal link I can hit?
@BJM, there was a time, in living memory, when calling a man a wife-beater put him among the lowest of the low. How'd we get away from that?
You must have missed the decades of the 90s.
We went through a virtual hysteria about domestic violence.
Women are probably just as likely to engage in domestic violence as men. I understand that the highest rates of domestic violence are within lesbian relationships.
It would help me decide if I knew her. Maybe if she were the rare person who died early from cancer such that it was unusually tragic, such that I cared.
4 Feminist Myths about Domestic Violence
A typical leftist whose nastiness to those who disagreed with her policy choices left me pleased I didn't know such a heartless woman personally.
OTOH, I didn't really care that much about EE. Based on the Coulter incident and what I've read she wasn't a particularly nice or admirable person.
The Professor hits the nail on the head. We only Know them through candid shots of their reactions to the hard knocks of life. So most Hollywood and DC actors and actresses are never really known. But still we feel for them like we do a soap opera player. Heck, I felt bad about Det. Frank Drebin's death.( And the super smart SP is cornering the market on Authenticity while the limp seven dwarfs are trying out their perfectly Phony Presidential acts on video tapes with consultants).
@shoutingthomas
Bitches had it coming, the kids too.
Douchebag.
What sort of person feels real loss of someone who is not even a friend?"
_______________________________________
I guess it depends on what you mean by "real Loss". When certain political, literary, and entertainment figures that I liked and I admired died - I felt a sense of loss. I mean it wasn't like my brother died, but I felt something.
Its kinda like when I heard Old "Miss X" died. My third grade teacher. Yes, she was pretty old, and I wasn't her friend but still...
Good or bad I don't believe Elizabeth Edwards and any measurable effect on the 2004 race. If anything done to or done by Edwards, singly or otherwise, had any effect it was this
BJM,
Just as I figured.
What kind of vicious, politicized joint do you work in?
You're not helping anybody.
You're working out your grudge, whatever it is.
Get out of that "shelter" and take care of your own psychological problems.
Cunt.
@BJM, ignore shoutingthomas. Please answer my question.
Wash your mouth with soap Thomas!
Big Mike,
You operating on chivalry.
This woman is a feminist ideologue with a bitch against men.
Don't buy into the feminist propaganda about domestic violence.
Read the article I cited. Feminists have been telling a lot of lies about domestic violence.
She had a better brain than he did, but was a catastrophe looks-wise. Edwards was her puppet. But at some point they went all Punch and Judy, and now she's dead.
Big Mike,
Take a moment to consider this.
BJM just accused John Edwards of "battering" his wife, without any evidence.
Nobody has ever alleged that Edwards ever committed physical violence against his wife.
This BJM is a vengeful feminist ideologue. Don't be taken in by your chivalrous feelings.
She's playing you, chump.
Men are all too willing to be played in this manner. All men love to think the worst of other men.
Think with your brain for a moment, not your dick.
"John and Elizabeth Edwards had no obligation to be a role model for undereducated women. They were not obligated to send messages with their relationship."
Oh, but they are made out to be, aren't they?
And it does send a message. I recall we discussed it here when they got divorced and while I don't know that anyone agreed with me about it, it seemed to *say* something that the two of them were wealthy enough to part as "friends" and the column writers were opining that Elizabeth Edwards was a lesson for us all on how to act.
A lesson for us.
Well bully for her.
She's rich. She doesn't have to worry about bills or roofs over the heads of her children or if the child support check is going to come or not.
But she's held up as a bright light of reason for the rest of us.
Do you not recall?
And the wealthy philanderer, the John Edwardses, who do they harm with their obedience to their own desires? They may embarrass themselves and their spouse but only because the proles have such outmoded notions of right and wrong. Certainly it's a lesson to us all to treat such things with dignity and nobility and class?
No?
Do you not recall the last several years of Elizabeth the Model To Us All?
And please. There are ways to be abused that do not involve physical violence.
The idea that a poor man doing "not much worse" than Edwards leaving utter destruction in his wake is an idea with merit. The destruction Edwards could have caused was almost entirely mitigated by the fact that the two of them have money.
At the very least and quite *obviously* there would never have been a need for Elizabeth and her children to seek out charity for a roof over their heads and food in their bellies on account of "dad" taking up with some other woman.
Oh, but they are made out to be, aren't they?
Damned if I know. Were they?
I wasn't looking to them as role models, but... hell, I don't look to anybody as a role model, except maybe my mother and father.
And, for matters of morality, I go to church and consult my pastor.
As to the other thing...
It was shocking to me when Princess Diana died. She was a constant presence in the World from the time I was a teenager and then she was gone.
My children reacted that way to the death of Billy Mays.
And please. There are ways to be abused that do not involve physical violence.
Certainly. But, then again, we don't know anything about the Edwards' relationship except what we read in the press.
Mrs. Edwards might as likely have been a psychological and emotional abuser as her husband. What would you know about that? The answer: Unless your were there, Nothing. Apparently, you just have that natural tendency to blame the man for the failure of the relationship.
The dictionary definition of "battery":
An unlawful attack upon another person by beating or wounding, or by touching in an offensive manner
BJM specifically accused Edwards of "battering" his wife.
Synova: Oh, but they are made out to be, aren't they?
Echo.
And for all their talk about "Two America's", they sure didn't walk the walk.
It was just a political tool to leverage power for them. Like everything else in their lives.
Elizabeth was very bright, driven and beautiful. I wonder how she would have turned out if her judgement had not been compromised when she chose John as her partner.
Elizabeth was very bright, driven and beautiful. I wonder how she would have turned out if her judgement had not been compromised when she chose John as her partner.
Here we go again.
How do you know that John Edwards was the one who destroyed the relationship?
All you know is what you read in the press.
And, you have the natural and predictable tendency to blame the man.
Why?
You don't know anything about the private details of their relationship.
This tendency to blame the man is so deeply built into us.
On what are you basing this blame of Edwards? I'm not saying he isn't to blame. But, you sure as hell don't know.
Maybe Elizabeth Edwards was a crazy bitch in private. Not saying she was, but we don't know, do we?
Why do you insist that you know something that you cannot possibly know?
"If one no longer wants to be married then get a divorce or don't marry at all, but don't leave wreckage behind as if human beings are disposable."
Words worth repeating.
@BJM, Along with Big Mike, I too would like to contribute to your shelter. Please email me or Mrs. Meade with information. Thanks.
Let me offer another, easily believable scenario: the Edwards' had agreed to a marriage of convenience.
Here's how it goes:
Neither of them saw any particular reason to dissolve their marriage although both of them had long ceased to find much sustenance in it.
They had long ago agreed to maintain the appearance of a happily married couple because that was an asset in the professional and political careers.
Neither of them really expected fidelity or emotional intimacy from one another.
This is possible, isn't it? And, they didn't have any obligation to reveal this to the public, even if you think that it would be very bad for them to deceive people.
Meade, that's really a scurrilous suggestion.
I think I just lost all respect for you.
A loony woman with an obvious grudge posts hysterically on this site accusing John Edwards of physical assault on his wife, and you want to reward that.
Disgusting.
Makes me wonder about what kind of ass kissing your doing with your wife, and I'm not talking about the pleasant kind.
So, Meade, you and Ann are into ginning up the domestic violence hysteria.
Figures.
ST, it could well be that Elizabeth was a demeaning shrew to John who sought comfort and intimacy elsewhere.
And again, if so... if we're supposed to view the manner of the dissolution of their marriage as an Example To Us All (and yes, it really was presented as such in the press) then it's a harmful message to people to endure an emotionally abusive situation or else that such things aren't abusive and don't cause harm.
Either way it was supposed to be no-one's fault. No one was calling Elizabeth a shrew on account of she had cancer and it would be hateful to do so, and John's indiscretions were just consensual adult behavior. Their divorce was conciliation itself and ought to be emulated.
Maybe it seems that no one willing to admit that it might be the fault of the woman, so I've said it, OK? Maybe Elizabeth was a shrew. But we don't know that. The only actual facts we have involve John's behavior and the fact that he didn't divorce Elizabeth long before. It does lead one to think that the most likely scenario is that she can't have been that bad after all.
@shoutingthomas, feel free, as well, to email me. I'd like to have a private word with you. And if you do, please drop your anonymity. Thank you.
Shouting Thomas,
As usual, you seem to be the (quite loud) voice of reason here, and I'm glad to see it, because someone needs to break through to these lunkheads that they're buying into a manufactured media image in their own minds (Did Edwards ever stand a chance of being president? Than why keep pretending he did?) and smashing a real person who we watched suffer greatly, now deceased, in the process. One would think, amongst a crowd of supposedly intelligent adults, they'd be able to figure that out and do the decent thing but, as the fact Ann's whoring the subject again proves - after all the animosity she provoked previously - this is not a subject where their so-called "better angels" will ever come into play.
BJM does seem to have placed women on a pedestal (and here we go again with another BS speech to me about "the poor" - have you donated to my blog, BJM? No? Then shut the fuck up.) never seriously considering those cunts own role in their situations but, instead, feeding a hatred for men who may have every right to be sick of someone who was "Daddy's Little Princess" for most of their upbringing and never grew up, seeing men as only to serve. Fuck them and their four kids. They probably drove the men mad with their sense of entitlement - or has anyone seen a commercial for men saying, "You deserve it"? Stupid bitches.
Ann keeps trying to pretend she's acting normal ("a prompt to reflect on the person's whole life") when this so-called "feminist" hasn't said one kind or non-antagonistic word about this dead woman who truly suffered. I've seen a lot of things here I think are evil - as others have said of me, and my blog, so don't think I'm punching unfairly - but, by my personal standards, Ann's been scraping the bottom-of-the-hypocrisy-barrel with this shit.
I think Lem's first comment ("It seems to me that EE was all of those...") comes closest to my own feelings, with the caveat she was more than that as well - a mother, a friend to someone, and someone pretty normal for a dyed-in-the-wool lib with lots of money.
That, Ann, is reflecting "on the person's whole life" but you - and most of your "followers" - don't seem capable of recognizing that, and there's nothing good I can say about it.
It's just plain sad.
I think I'll pass, Meade.
A man who rewards unfounded charges of violence against another man is an enemy.
So, I'll withdraw from your site permanently and not return.
My e-mail address is not difficult to find if it's really important to you.
Shouting: How do you know that John Edwards was the one who destroyed the relationship? All you know is what you read in the press. And, you have the natural and predictable tendency to blame the man. Why?
I know his character.
He was fucking around with a skank while the mother of his children needed every ounce of support to fight off her cancer.
I hope that John Edwards lives a very long life. And that every day of it is filled with suffering and misery.
@shoutingthomas, I'm a mathematician so I hardly ever do anything without my brain fully engaged.
I didn't take what BJM said to imply that John Edwards physically or even necessarily emotionally battered Elizabeth. I thought that BJM was making a connection between John Edwards the slimeball (and junk scientist) with the slimeball husband of the woman she references.
I not only concede your point that many, perhaps nearly all, of the women who have murdered their husbands but got off because of alleged battering were not at all abused and basically got away with murder. Indeed, I will stipulate that point.
(I did some work for the Dept. of Justice early in my career; some of the jargon rubs off.)
But battered women do exist and do need help, and when I learn about people who need help, I try to help. It seems to be a sentiment that is particular to h. sapiens.
Mike,
"Does your organization have a PayPal link I can hit?"
Poor choice of words, dude!
Meade,
@BJM, Along with Big Mike, I too would like to contribute to your shelter. Please email me or Mrs. Meade with information. Thanks.
Jesus, you're a fucking puss sometimes. When was the last time you spoke to your ex-wife? Maybe she needs some help? Is she heartbroken? Have you held her hand? Done anything for your kids by her? Spoken to her parents, or the rest of your family you now consider former? Let me guess - there's no one poor amongst them you can help, instead of a stranger, right? Idiot.
You guys kill me with your bullshit. Like the guy from Facebook, saying he'll give half his fortune to charity, like he doesn't know any poor people or doesn't pass them on the street. What's stopping him from passing out $1000 bills and letting them direct their own lives, rather than some bullshit organization with overhead deciding what someone else has to do?
You're all full of shit in this way. Oh, so much compassion for "the blacks" but no money for Crack Emcee and no shutting up about race even after he says it bothers him to hear about it.
Oh, one Ann Althouse lecture after another on feminism, but stand back as she shits all over EE without reflection.
Oh, Meade's so conservative, but he's going to give money to a woman's shelter that does nothing to fight the bullshit laws men live under that his lawyer second wife defends and believes in, no matter how unfair.
It's madness, I tell you, sheer fucking madness.
Synova,
It does lead one to think that the most likely scenario is that she can't have been that bad after all.
Exactly, but amongst this cynical crew of assholes, that obvious fact seems to be the hardest sell of all.
like he doesn't know any poor people or doesn't pass them on the street. What's stopping him from passing out $1000 bills and letting them direct their own lives, rather than some bullshit organization with overhead deciding what someone else has to do?
Poverty is mostly the result of bad habits. Passing out money at the street corner only funds the local liquor store (I've done this, fully aware they would waste it on booze and cigs).
The reason you donate to organizations is because they have "aid" down to a science.
@Crack, usually I enjoy your comments, but I think you and shoutingthomas are off base here. (But, who knows, maybe you're right about the particular case cited by BJM. I just doubt it.)
I recognize that you have issues, but not every woman is your first wife. And perhaps BJM has issues of her own. Those questions are orthogonal to the whether or not there is a woman at a shelter who needs help.
Oh, and you asked whether John Edwards ever stood a chance of being president. Actually, I think the answer is affirmative. I work with many center-left people, and female technical staff -- some of them quite senior as regards their career standing -- seemed particularly taken with him.
"...but I think you and shoutingthomas are off base here."
Here? Here, there and everywhere is more like it.
@Kirk, good catch, dude.
Oddly, I'm finding myself feeling approximately the same way I felt upon Tammy Faye Bakker's demise.
Big Mike,
I recognize that you have issues, but not every woman is your first wife.
You guys are, one day, going to get sick of beating this dead horse. I don't think every woman is my first wife - and I "won" my divorce, if there is such a thing - and the suggestion (again: something you guys seem incapable of understanding) that one can learn from these these things seems to escape you. Women don't all have to be cunts for it to be true they exist under a layer of laws and assumptions that are total unfair and, with few exceptions, they feel no compulsion to do anything about it. They just don't care. Now if that's the case, as a man, why should I do anything but fight them, demoralize them, kick the pedastal from underneath them at every opportunity and laugh the laugh they choose to deny the people who actually built this place they want to rule?
You can do what you want, but I learned in an unforgettable way how this world is currently constructed, and there is nothing anyone can say to make me think that feminism's total destruction is the only answer to what ails this society today.
Oh, and you asked whether John Edwards ever stood a chance of being president. Actually, I think the answer is affirmative. I work with many center-left people, and female technical staff -- some of them quite senior as regards their career standing -- seemed particularly taken with him.
Somebody being taken with Edwards isn't the same thing as saying he had a real chance - he didn't - so this "Elizabeth almost ruined the country" bullshit is a lie from top to bottom.
Lying on the recently departed for blog hits: real classy.
@Crack, my email address is in my profile.
If you'd like, contact me using your real name and explain to me your financial needs and why you feel it's my obligation to meet them, and I'll be happy to consider making a contribution. (Is there even such a thing as a $1000 bill? I don't think so.)
As for my first marriage - like you, I have a few regrets. But I'm not ashamed of a single behavior of mine regarding that marriage or divorce. Unlike you, I choose not to publicize or put information on the internet about my ex-wife.
The person whose birth, life and death I could only with great difficulty care less about.
She wasn't particularly good, evil, smart, dumb, or interesting. She did nothing of note and had no apparent impact on my life.
She did nothing of note and had no apparent impact on my life
We'll never know, but if she'd kept her husband out of the 2008 race, as a sensible person would have to avoid exposing her children to her husband's public sleaziness, we might be living with President HRC now.
So, I'll withdraw from your site permanently and not return.
Promise?
I found the NYT article to be surprisingly fair. She was a complex, human character who did both good and bad things. Let the good things that she did live on; bury the bad things with her, let her rest in peace and move on.
No amount of castigating her corpse will affect matters in the slightest when the next John Edwards comes along... And trust me, he will. Like the characters in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, he was a archetype who continually recurs in our political life. So when you see the next fellow with the perfectly coiffed hair and the sparkly smile and the perfect wife at his side, keep your hand on your wallet and don't be taken in.
Cancer's a tough way to leave. Hard to complain about her, a minor character in a comedic morality play. Her suffering's done. His persists, and ours, as long as we're forced to read about him.
Who? (Cares?) (Really?)
A bright woman like a number of people I know. Who married a guy with huge aspirations and a way with words to extract lots of $$ from people.
They had some kids together and lost one sadly and were a successful American family on the rich side.
She did some good deeds. She had good traits and behaviors and bad traits and behaviors.
He got into politics. (His state did not love him as a Senator, however.) He tried for a promotion and failed.
He cheated on the very bright wife who had tragedy in her life.
He cheated her in a weird hugely public way.
She died younger than most women in America.
In 50 years no one will care much why this was an issue or who she really was. Except in the legacy her children keep alive.
Can we talk about something else?
If you'd like, contact me using your real name and explain to me your financial needs and why you feel it's my obligation to meet them, and I'll be happy to consider making a contribution. (Is there even such a thing as a $1000 bill? I don't think so.)
I never suggested you have an obligation to do anything but stop lecturing us, as Ann did in a previous thread, about "the poor" or "the blacks" - I am "the poor" and black - and, if one is willing to ignore those in their immediate vicinity, then I have a hard time imagining the nameless faceless sort is worth much more to you.
As for my first marriage - like you, I have a few regrets. But I'm not ashamed of a single behavior of mine regarding that marriage or divorce. Unlike you, I choose not to publicize or put information on the internet about my ex-wife.
Regrets? What regrets? I didn't cheat or kill anyone - that was the NewAge woman (and her NewAge gay and female friends) you, Ann, and BJM have so much sympathy for. And, like you, I'm sure - with the mindset you all share - they have no regrets for anything they did, even after the body count was finished. In NewAge parlance, you've all "moved on", and - like Baby Boomers the world over - anyone left behind who loved you is disposable.
Sorry, but some of us are a bit more passionate about seeing "the good" as more than just what's convenient for you at any given time.
Lastly, no one told Ann to mine this topic again. She saw the disgust it welled up in many of us regulars and decided, for whatever reason, to go for it once more. If the bile it's bringing bothers you, then I have a suggestion, though it might require more masculinity than you're capable of:
Talk to you "wife".
Crack:
"You're all full of shit in this way. Oh, so much compassion for "the blacks" but no money for Crack Emcee and no shutting up about race even after he says it bothers him to hear about it."
Oh, Crack. I like you. I've been wondering what the limit is on 'race' talk with you. I'm white. Is it okay to jokingly go back and forth about race sometimes? Like when I put up the Shaft pic?
Now st's got everyone worked up. Yes, no one knows what the interior of a marriage is like. I think the Edwards' were just like the Clintons...a power couple who made compromises and over-looked things marriage-related. Not that they didn't hurt. E could have been a shrew, who knows. The loss of their son had to be horrible. And to want to have more kids and be exposed to fertility drugs so late (or at all) was not good. And for her to have ignored the mammogram till the point cancer was already metastasized to bone must have been cruelly disheartening to her. So sad.
Now buck up. The whole point of this site is to get page views and have interesting discussions.
Hey, give me the link to your post with the Muslim school in England that taught young kids how to properly saw off hands for theft, etc., please.
Crack: Regrets? What regrets? I didn't cheat or kill anyone
Neither did I. Don't you regret having married someone who did?
Hey, Mr. Meade!
deborah,
Oh, Crack. I like you. I've been wondering what the limit is on 'race' talk with you. I'm white. Is it okay to jokingly go back and forth about race sometimes? Like when I put up the Shaft pic?
I like you, too. In my life, offline, race is only used for two things:
Descriptive: The Crack Emcee? He's that black guy who hangs out at the Althouse blog.
And jokes: I say nigger all the time - nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger - makes my teeth white.
Other than that, race doesn't mean shit to me. Sure, there's some residual historical shit left over, but not enough for me to want to do anything but keep looking forward. You're white? I love you - and the Shaft pic. Can't we all get along?
Now st's got everyone worked up.
No, that was Ann's doing. As I said the other day, this is taking on the contours of a divorce, and 70% of all divorces are started by women - for no good reason. She didn't have to go there again. And the alienation Shouting Thomas feels - or the intimidation Meade's applying in defense of what Ann's started - is unjustified. They're wrong, plain and simple.
The whole point of this site is to get page views and have interesting discussions.
I agree. But if the free speech policies of this blog uncover such hypocrisy then it's up to good people to cop to it and stop acting like they're too above respecting others to apologize for destroying the good will we all share. We can be rough on one another - that's a given - but, I think, there ought to be a purpose to it beyond mere page views.
We're adults - not just "Baby" Boomers - and we ought to start acting like it.
Hey, give me the link to your post with the Muslim school in England that taught young kids how to properly saw off hands for theft, etc., please.
Will do, gladly.
As I said earlier, the reason I posted on this subject again is that I like Jan Hoffman's writing.
Meade,
Oh, Don't you regret having married someone who [killed and cheated]?
No. I consider my ex, and almost all NewAgers, to be confused and suffering from a form of mental illness. My regret is that I live in a society that has so little respect for men, and the role of husbands - real ones, you know, the "first" - that I couldn't get help for her before she did something horrible.
I used to joke with my wife that, when we got old, she'd be babbling incoherently about space aliens while I'd be caring for her, with my broken body, crawling from the kitchen to the bedroom to feed her. The idea that I'd EVER leave her - and, keep in mind, I was a mid-level rock star with my pick of women if I wanted - never entered my mind. "for better or for worse" was my mantra, and I planned on sticking with it. But none of that meant anything to anyone but me. Not to her, her homeopathic lover, her "friends" (or even many of mine) the courts, or the so-called law. We suffer from a culture of depravity, where "the good" - as you and Ann proved when you mocked me as sentimental - means nothing. Like that art critic who said he hated Norman Rockwell, we live in a time and place where (and with too many people who think) trying to "Do The Right Thing" should be twisted into feeling, somehow, wrong. But, as Devo said, "We're through being cool" if that's what it's come to.
Bernie Madoff's son hung himself today - further proof, as I've been saying, of the evil tentacles of fraud - and, as far as I'm concerned, that's all being as "sophisticated" as you guys appear to want us to become gets us. It's all a fraud, presented as the new normal.
"Do you want to replace the existing Normal?"
I certainly do, and I'll fight on, thank you very much.
deborah,
I answered you, but, at least in my browser, my reply disappeared.
Sorry - I'll get you that post - and I like you, too.
:)
Thanks for your reply, Crack. Much to talk about at a later time...it's 1:30 here...
'Night all.
@Meade and Big Mike
Thanks guys, you're the best.
Through all this mess, a bond is forged.
Good luck, Crack and Deb.
The political operative whose complicity in covering up her husband’s infidelity could have cost the Democratic Party the presidency?"
No, that was Hillary Rodham Clinton covering up Bill's affair with Gennifer Flowers, back in 1992.
"Elizabeth seemed like the kind of person you would want for your friend."
This is about what this has said. Actually friend means from this,as I think.. :)
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Re-reading the bar room fight about EE's status after death seems seems to stem from a failure to communicate. My preferred thought is how another rich and almost very powerful man got taken down by an affair. Men seem most to be in need of training about morality for their own protection. The Proverbs 2:16, et seq. contain good teaching about how deadly a fling can be to the man; and in turn to his wife and to his children and to his friends and to his allies. Our late great Alexander Hamilton took such a fall.
nice piece. but it really only lays out the complexities ...
i admired elizabeth's fierce dedication to her family, but I do prefer Michelle's approach to being mom in chief which also includes letting the kids see you taking care of yourself...i think Michelle also puts the kids first, but she's at the very least a close second. Hillary seems to have done a gret job in this regard too. I wonder how much of elizabeth's stance on parenting was an outworking of her continued anguish on loosing her first born. I do wonder how she might have been different if she could have released more of the pain (if possible) and held on to a theistic theology as opposed to the deism which she seemed to believe later on ....
I wonder also how the supremacy of the role of mom in chief over everything else effects ones marriage when said husband is supremely ambitious, and doesnt appear to tie as much of his identity to being a parent. there were clearly other complexities there though, but i wonder if her role as 'mother' blinded her somewhat to the work that it takes to make a marriage work for both people. It doesnt help though that she was married to a selfish coward ...
Well written. I especially like the last paragraph with the quote from EE. This was her amends for the regrets throughout her life, both large and small. I can accept that.
With awareness that this debate has pretty much wound down, I've been wanting to ask: Can someone please explain this whole "AA is always beating the feminism issue" to me?
I've been reading Althouse every day for several years now, allbeit sometimes quickly and between other things. I can't recall a single specific post where she argued that women ought to have special rights, quotas, etc.
Yes, AA is a feminist in the sense that she believes in equality and choices. She's not, however, in any way a man hater. I've not seen her support affirmative action. She understands that those who oppose abortion have their reasons. She doesn't use absurd "facts" like the alleged pay gap. She doesn't accuse men of bad behavior when they don't deserve it, and seems to have good relationships with men (judging from Meade, her ex-husband, and the many male commenters here). She's appeared to show an open mind when discussions of feminism come up. And so on.
Crack, ShoutingT, or anyone else, what are you talking about when you assert that she has been lecturing us and flogging feminism over and over again?
- Lyssa
Lyssa, your point is well made, and I totally agree with you.
The question that remains is for Althouse. Yes, we know you are a woman, but beyond that, why call yourself a "feminist"? It's an emotionally laden term that does little but divide.
Maybe it's time you started calling yourself a "humanist"?
I don't even know what "feminist" means anymore. I've played around with the term "equalist," but it doesn't really sound very good. Humanist strikes me as being too broad, but perhaps that's the point.
I'm always thrilled to hear smart people, like most of those on this blog, discuss it, though.
Perhaps this explanation will help you out: Althouse's "feminism" isn't traditionally what one would consider feminism. Althouse's feminism is instead her rationale for diminishing and berating any woman who isn't like her, or worse, doesn't aspire to be like her -- for example, EE who got a law degree but who "chose to live in the shadow of her husband".
I fully agree with your opinion that Althouse seems distinctly pro-man on her site, because it's clear she enjoys the male attention (so long as it's properly worshipful). But if you employ the definition of Althouse's "feminism" outlined above, you'll see the light.
No, I don't really agree with any of that, Kathleen.
On that topic, does Althouse even go around "calling herself a feminist"? I can't remember having ever seen that (except, perhaps when referring to her younger self), and, if she does, it's certainly not something she does with some sort of character-defining regularlity.
You mean you'd rather remain confused than "agree" with an argument you find distasteful. There are lots of people like you around.
I wasn't confused before (except, perhaps about why Crack and ShoutingT keep making their statements, but that has nothing to do with your comment), but now I am confused that you think I'm confused. What on earth do you think I am confused about?
(If it was that I said that I don't know what a feminist is, I'm certainly not confused about that. I understand perfectly well that people have a wide variety of definitions of it, with which they can't agree, and, therefore, the term is so poorly understood as to be useless in any communications. Not confusing at all.)
I didn't express, and don't have, any confusion about Althouse's statements in this field- I like them and tend to generally agree, although, being much younger than she, we certainly have some differences in how we see the world. I asked why Crack and ShoutingT are interpreting them the way that they do.
Lyssa - here you go:
Althouse on the question "who gets to be a feminist?"
danielle, here I go what? What does what Althouse says about who gets to be a feminist have to do with my questions about what Crack and ShoutingT say, or my question about why Kathleen thinks I'm confused?
BTW, I did love AA's peice there. The other Slate writers- not so much.
I asked why Crack and ShoutingT are interpreting them the way that they do.
New Age and Preferences, (dis)respectfully, are their tiresome hobbyhorses, not hers.
To me, hers seems to be women excusing bad behavior in the persuit of power. See liberal feminist silence during Lewinsky, "Let's take a closer look at those breasts", and EE covering for her husband.
WV - dentest - considering her profession/class/sex, she often fails (a good, true feminist thing)
Jeeeez. Everybody is beating on my pal Meade.
He might have to go to a battered blogger spouse safe house.
Related: some of our commenters would like to ask Terry Bradshaw why he thinks he's an athelete...
kathleen: Althouse's feminism is instead her rationale for diminishing and berating self-proclaimed "feminists" who get down on her knees to swallow Clinton's cock in exchange for a veto of the partial-birth abortion ban
/fixed
"Feminist" hypocrites like you, Kat.
Hey Kat, when you're done wiping the cum off your chin, explain to us again how Clinton grabbing Kathleen Wiley's breasts during a job interview was not sexual assault. That was an entertaining discussion...
And try to show some fricken shame, skank.
Who was my EE?
An extremely intelligent woman, easily the intellectual superior over her chosen spouse. A woman who invested heavily in raising what was by all accounts a fine young man, only to see him die by random accident at the age of 16, and who never really recovered from that. A mother of two young children who lost much of their father due to his own selfish acts, and who now have lost that mother. A person who went through the terror of cancer, the relief of beating it, and then the agony of finding out that it had returned and would eventually win. A wife to a faithless husband, who was betrayed not for love but for selfish gratification. A person who strongly identified herself as the wife, confidant, and equal partner to her successful husband, and then had to deal with the fact that her husband evidently didn't feel the same about her... and she had to deal with this at the same time she was dealing with terminal cancer.
I don't think EE was a bad person. I think she did some things she regretted, and I think she deceived herself into believing that the ends justified the means. I think that her approaching death made her evaluate her life and come to this conclusion on her own. And, I think that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... and that really is all of us.
I don't like her husband, and I vehemently disagree with her politics, but none of that changes the fact that there are two young children who have lost their mother. Or, that a woman who for whatever reason compromised her principles to support her husband found herself abandoned by that husband in her time of greatest need.
My EE was a tragic figure, with a life that could form the basis of a Greek myth. No saint, all too human. Rest in peace.
AllenS said...
I never met the woman, but I'll bet that her and her husband wouldn't have given me the time of day.
Only for your vote. To people like that, that is all you are good for.
MamaM said...
If Elizabeth's children and Rielle's daughter are able to sort their way through whatever deceit was perpetuated to lead lives of integrity, service and love, I will consider them to be not only surivors, but heros.
Oh dear God please. Under the auspices of money flow that Edwards will provide to both, to proclaim herodom to children if they even make through this level of dysfunction is silly. Where are you proclamations for the countless children, through untold levels of trauma that they went through to become the many of us that we are today. I'm not talking about myself however.
hey Fen, you're a loathesome freak. do you always attribute "quotes" to people that you pull out of thin air?
John Clifford,
My EE was a tragic figure
kathleen,
hey Fen, you're a loathesome freak.
I feel vindicated - and I'm out.
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