Althouse: "Democrats Clinch Vote on Health Debate."

November 21, 2009

"Democrats Clinch Vote on Health Debate."

In case you want to talk about it. I'll just be over here in a corner curled up in a little ball.

184 comments:

avwh said...: Franken stealing that election from Coleman in Minnesota looks pretty big about now...; 11/21/09, 2:46 PM
Alex said...: Any blue-dog type Democrat voting for this will lose in 2010.; 11/21/09, 2:53 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Avwh - I was just thinking the same thing. Now if the democrats can get amnesty for millions of illegals - the socialist democrats will be in power forever.

We are screwed.; 11/21/09, 2:53 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: I think support for this thing tops out at only at 35%. This nation does not want Tax Payer Funded Health Care.

Note the democrats use of lies and manipulative language to sell this thing. It's really depressing to witness.; 11/21/09, 2:55 PM
Palladian said...: And this Pandora's jar can never be shut again, you realize.; 11/21/09, 3:01 PM
jayne_cobb said...: The person most likely to be damaged by this (politically speaking) would have to be Landrieu who has now garnered the nickname "The Louisiana Purchase".; 11/21/09, 3:02 PM
Synova said...: Pandora's jar can be shut again, it's just exponentially easier to open.

The result is the same in the end, perhaps.; 11/21/09, 3:03 PM
Anonymous said...: "I'll just be over here in a corner curled up in a little ball."

Still think Obama should be the President? Has he lost you yet, Ann? Because there's been no "How Obama Lost Me" post yet.

Are you waiting until he opens the concentration camp's he's building to house all those who will defiantly refuse to be forced to buy his fucking outrageously priced health insurance policies?

Because it will be a little late by then, dontcha think?; 11/21/09, 3:04 PM
jayne_cobb said...: Does anyone know which Dems. have come out against a public option?; 11/21/09, 3:05 PM
chickelit said...: This feels momentus in the apex of the pendulum sort of way.

I figure I have two or three more years before a decidely worse healthcare option is foisted on me and my family.

Oh well, it's for the greater good I'm told.; 11/21/09, 3:05 PM
Deborah M. said...: "It is clear to me that doing nothing is not an option," said Landrieu, who noted the legislation includes $100 million to help her state pay the costs of health care for the poor.

wv: unicks. The result of Obamacare on health insurance.; 11/21/09, 3:07 PM
Anonymous said...: "The person most likely to be damaged by this would have to be Landrieu who has now garnered the nickname "The Louisiana Purchase".

Jayne, you're clearly not from Louisiana.

They love this shit there. It's graft city on an epic scale. The bigger thief you appear to be, the more popular you are ... as long as you spread it around.

And let me tell you ... $100 million can be spread far and wide.

They elected convicted felon Edwin Edwards three times. "The only way I'd be defeated is if I get caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy," he once famously said.

And he was right.; 11/21/09, 3:08 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: The assumption is that this will give Obama the feather-in-the-cap he needs to win a 2nd term. I think it will do the opposite. If this thing passes, all the blue dogs are gone plus a few others in purple states. Obama will be a one term president.

(Unless the democrats can figure out a way to rig or fix the elections); 11/21/09, 3:14 PM
Unknown said...: avwh said...

Franken stealing that election from Coleman in Minnesota looks pretty big about now...

Add up a lot of stolen elections and they look much bigger as an aggregate now. This is the result of George Soros' Secretaries of States Project. O'Keefe and Giles may have been five years too late.

Alex said...

Any blue-dog type Democrat voting for this will lose in 2010.

The theory is that they don't care. Once this is in place, they'll have enough drones beholden to them and RahmBO's permanent Democrat majority is a reality. Can we all say, "This is anti-American, un-American, and the last step on the road to tyranny"?

Palladian said...

And this Pandora's jar can never be shut again, you realize.

They're counting on that, but a lot of similar people counted on the Berlin Wall never coming down, either.

As a number of people have noted, they're picking the worst possible time to try this. At least FDR was able to give the illusion of things improving under the New Deal. With the Raw Deal, that's just not happening.

PS Ann, nobody believes you're the type of person who ever curled up in a little ball in a corner.; 11/21/09, 3:18 PM
LonewackoDotCom said...: Back in August, I came up with a couple questions for townhalls involving healthcare and immigration. If people had formed into groups and found local lawyers (or similar) to really press pols on those or similar questions at those events, that would have had a dramatic impact on the debate about UHC. It would have also raised the general level of debate in the U.S. and undercut the MSM.

Instead, the nominal UHC opponents - such as Glenn Reynolds and stimulus plan lobbyist Dick Armey - just encouraged people to go to meetings without suggesting effective things they could do. Implicitly or explicitly, those leaders (not just Reynolds and Armey) knew what would happen: people who aren't good at asking questions would take mic time away from those few who are, and the rest of them would simply throw tantrums and act out. And, that helps explain in good part where we're at today.; 11/21/09, 3:19 PM
Unknown said...: AprilApple said...

The assumption is that this will give Obama the feather-in-the-cap he needs to win a 2nd term. I think it will do the opposite. If this thing passes, all the blue dogs are gone plus a few others in purple states. Obama will be a one term president.

(Unless the democrats can figure out a way to rig or fix the elections)

In answer to your last point, ACORN and its wholly owned subsidiary, SEIU.

If the economy's still that bad (quite likely), BambiCare won't save him. The other big fly in the ointment is security. A big disaster overseas (e.g., major outpost overrun) or a big terrorist attack here and it's over then and there.; 11/21/09, 3:23 PM
Moose said...: Feel free to bitch people. It's gonna get passed, and anyone making more than $100 K a year is going to get corn holed. The dollar is going to be the new "loonie", and we'll become some really weird version of Sweden full of "guest workers".

Feel the burn...; 11/21/09, 3:27 PM
Belasarion said...: I am despondent over this. Eventually the way the good ship America will right itself is by chucking a goodly number of passengers overboard. I expect it will be anyone above a certain age. I saw this in Moscow in 1998. Hundreds of old people lined the sidewalks across from the Cosmos hotel silently holding out home-made or used small objects for sale. Their pensions weren't paid. I'm sure by now they are all dead and not troublesome now.; 11/21/09, 3:27 PM
JAL said...: "It is clear to me that doing nothing is not an option," said Landrieu

Two things:

It is rare. And I do mean rare, when doing nothing is NOT an option.

Why is doing nothing not an option? Because all the other developing nations have bankrupt national health services? (Ours will be staffed by federal employees or those unionized by the workers internationale Democrat party major stockholder [with George Soros] god Andy Stern.)

I have NEVER understood politicians using this to excuse atrocious, montrous choices they make.

Why not do NOTHING about health care at least until we get the jobs, economy and war finessed a little, mmmm? C'mon Mary, senator of a state which has sucked up more resources than probably most of the other 49.

Or how about doing something less apocolyptic and grandeous?

Make some moves to honestly TRY some less explosive solutions which leave health choices out of the feds' blood stained fingers and more in our hands?

The second point is this:

I can GUARANTEE that under the new federal guidelines and health plans, in ten years LOTS of patients will be told that the BEST solution is to "Do Nothing."

("Wait! Here's a blue pill. Chill.)"

Mark my words, Mary Landrieu. A lot of those people will be Louisianians.; 11/21/09, 3:29 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Blanche better start packing up her office.; 11/21/09, 3:31 PM
ContraMan said...: It sucks I know....but on the bright side....

This whole debate has served to raise the conciousness of the entire country as to how truly fucked up the healthcare system is in America, and how badly it is in need of reform. Just as long it isn't Democrat Party/socialist reform. Which of course is really more of a demand to conform than reform.

Conservatives should be open to change and prove once and for all that the true reactionaries are those who keep resorting to the same tired leftist programs that have demonstrably failed time and time again.; 11/21/09, 3:32 PM
Mark D. said...: This can't be a surprise to anyone, can it? The Democrats weren't going to let their reform plans die in the Senate. Simply wasn't going to happen.

That said, I think that this is a watershed moment. We have either just seen the beginning of the end of Democratic Party governance -- a last gasp before a massive "thumpin'" in the 2010 mid-terms -- or the beginning of a solidification of one-party rule at the federal level. I don't know which way this will turn out. But something huge happened. Something telling for our future as a Republic...; 11/21/09, 3:45 PM
Anonymous said...: Here's the problem:

Republicans should be offering Landrieu $1 billion for low-income health care in Louisiana.

Only Louisiana wouldn't get the money until Republicans are back in office.

Then, Landrieu would have to go explain to her people back home how she squandered $900 million by backing Obama.

Of course, once it came time to pay off, Republicans would screw her ... but by then the deed would have been long done.

Republicans just can't understand how to think outside the box.

That's why they're losing.; 11/21/09, 3:46 PM
Palladian said...: So now we're a truly "free" people, European-style. Which means we have free! health care, we can smoke pot and watch porn on tv and have drag queen parades, all the things that spell "freedom" to adolescent thinkers. Bread and circuses. But we're now essentially slaves, working to make money which will be taken away from us on pain of incarceration, having the important decisions of life made on our behalf, being told what we can buy and what we can eat and what kind of light bulbs are morally acceptable and how far we can drive, how long we can live.

The force that made us a great nation, our work ethic and optimistic spirit, sick from years and years of declining standards and multicultural sensitivities and outsourcing and regulation and degradation is now on life support machines. And guess who now has their hand on the plug?

wv: putins. uh huh. just about right.; 11/21/09, 3:47 PM
The Drill SGT said...: Isn't everybody forgetting that the actual count in the Senate is:

Dems = 58
GOP = 40
Ind = 2

What is Lieberman going to do?

That is the question.; 11/21/09, 3:54 PM
Palladian said...: "What is Lieberman going to do?

That is the question."

He caucuses with the Democrats most of the time, except when national security is the issue. He'll probably go along with it.

wv: dranked. What I will have done last night come tomorrow morning.; 11/21/09, 3:57 PM
Shanna said...: Bye, Bye Blanche! I would ask what the odds are that she's got an administration post coming, but I've heard they don't take southerners.; 11/21/09, 4:04 PM
Factory Yoyo said...: Here is where the Media has let us ALL down:
the most sweeping legislation of the last 50 years is covered as a simple power struggle over process...the idea of UHC is so great to those like-minded in the Media that any real critical analysis is overshadowed and out-shouted by the constant tittering about "do they have the votes?"-type news stories.

Fucking disgraceful. A total abdication of any responsibility by the press.

But go ahead, pass this thing. Dems will be out of power for 30 years.; 11/21/09, 4:06 PM
J. Cricket said...: Althouse: where Republican pussies whine together like babies!; 11/21/09, 4:07 PM
Palladian said...: Althouse: where deranged losers like AJD post the same tiresome insults under dozens of different screen names for years and years!; 11/21/09, 4:11 PM
Anonymous said...: ... on that note, here's an article I read today that does a great job of going over all the details: http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/showlink.aspx?bookmarkid=IOOC88HXGPO4&preview=article&linkid=fde4afc4-e8a1-449a-a3be-fd9efccbd2d4&pdaffid=ZVFwBG5jk4Kvl9OaBJc5%2bg%3d%3d

Hope this helped,
MediaMentiosn; 11/21/09, 4:12 PM
Unknown said...: Floydster said...

Althouse: where Republican pussies whine together like babies!

Just remember, the collaborators and fellow travelers are always the first ones shot when guys like RahmBO take over.; 11/21/09, 4:16 PM
Irene said...: @edutcher--Exactly. Look what happened to Trotsky.; 11/21/09, 4:18 PM
Titus said...: I am curious, have the ladies from Maine voted on this thing?

How about democrat senators from Red States like Ben Nelson?; 11/21/09, 4:19 PM
Irene said...: I meant to add:

Trotsky.

Not to be confused with Tolstoy.; 11/21/09, 4:19 PM
Titus said...: I would find it interesting if moderates from both parties voted against their party.

I love it when someone goes against the group.; 11/21/09, 4:20 PM
Kirby Olson said...: Shouldn't someone be charged with bribing the senator from Louisiana?; 11/21/09, 4:21 PM
LonewackoDotCom said...: Some of the comments above illustrate why the Dems were able to do what they did. Rather than coming up with a plan, they whine and moan about the sky falling.

Meanwhile, up above, I linked to something that - had anyone else promoted it - could have had an impact on the bill and would have also had an impact on the MSM's coverage of the bill and even on the level of debate in the U.S. There's lots of ways others could help out for the next time, and I'd suggest doing that instead of whining and moaning. I also suggest taking a good look at your leaders and distancing yourselves from those who are either incompetent or corrupt or both.; 11/21/09, 4:24 PM
Titus said...: What is Blanche Lincoln like?

You never ever see her.

There are some senators that are on tv constantly and others that are never on tv.

I like the ones that are never on tv.; 11/21/09, 4:25 PM
Titus said...: I think Mary Landrieu is kind of cute and I am shocked that a democrat from Louisiana won the last election.; 11/21/09, 4:27 PM
Titus said...: Are there any gays in Arkansas?; 11/21/09, 4:36 PM
Deborah M. said...: Dear Blanche & Mary,
The check is in the mail.
Love,
Harry

wv: merme. I Lurve me a Merme.; 11/21/09, 4:40 PM
lucid said...: This is really terrible news. I don't think I have ever before lived through a period of history when people who were so sure they were right and who were so self-righteous did something that was so deeply destructive and long-lasting.

The only solution is apparently to defeat them in 2010 and 2012.; 11/21/09, 4:41 PM
Anonymous said...: "Any blue-dog type Democrat voting for this will lose in 2010."

So what? Do you honestly think these cretins have been wrestling with the conscience??!! The fix is in. I'm sure they have all been promised lucrative jobs as Health Panel Commissars or some other appropriate bribe.

These votes usher in Euro-style socialism. It will take a major war or other cataclysmic event to end it. The RINOs will be just as greedy to grab the spoils.; 11/21/09, 4:42 PM
Rialby said...: Unless the democrats can figure out a way to rig or fix the elections..

That's all the Democrats have figured out that's at all sustainable.; 11/21/09, 4:54 PM
Rialby said...: It's over. The Democrats will pass healthcare and once that happens, it will be impossible to dismantle it.; 11/21/09, 4:56 PM
Titus said...: When I was a young mo my parents and I drove to Lake of the Ozarks for our family vaca.

I remember it being pretty.

Is that Missouri?

I love states/cities that have hotels for under $200.00-they are so cute.; 11/21/09, 4:56 PM
Anonymous said...: It's not a done deal. This opens debate. Let them jaw and jaw. It will be much harder for Harry to get the second cloture vote. Especially if Lieberman sticks to his guns about voting with the GOP to sustain a filibuster. It's like Obi-Wan said, strike him down and he becomes more powerful than any could have imagined. Lieberman's revenge may be consigning this bill to eternal debate.; 11/21/09, 4:59 PM
Titus said...: I was like 12 on that vaca and I remember some older man at the pool with his shirt off that I wanted.

We ended up doing it later that evening in a bush.

I never told my parents.

No regrets, like Madonna always says.; 11/21/09, 4:59 PM
ricpic said...: Dinosauria, We

Born like this
Into this
As the chalk faces smile
As Mrs. Death laughs
As the elevators break
As political landscapes dissolve
As the supermarket bag boy holds a college degree
As the oily fish spit out their oily prey
As the sun is masked
We are
Born like this
Into this
Into these carefully mad wars
Into the sight of broken factory windows of emptiness
Into bars where people no longer speak to each other
Into fist fights that end as shootings and knifings
Born into this
Into hospitals which are so expensive that it's cheaper to die
Into lawyers who charge so much it's cheaper to plead guilty
Into a country where the jails are full and the madhouses closed
Into a place where the masses elevate fools into rich heroes
Born into this
Walking and living through this
Dying because of this
Muted because of this
Castrated
Debauched
Disinherited
Because of this
Fooled by this
Used by this
Pissed on by this
Made crazy and sick by this
Made violent
Made inhuman
By this
The heart is blackened
The fingers reach for the throat
The gun
The knife
The bomb
The fingers reach toward an unresponsive god
The fingers reach for the bottle
The pill
The powder
We are born into this sorrowful deadliness
We are born into a government 60 years in debt
That soon will be unable to even pay the interest on that debt
And the banks will burn
Money will be useless
There will be open and unpunished murder in the streets
It will be guns and roving mobs
Land will be useless
Food will become a diminishing return
Nuclear power will be taken over by the many
Explosions will continually shake the earth
Radiated robot men will stalk each other
The rich and chosen will watch from space platforms
Dante's Inferno will be made to look like a childrens' playground
The sun will not be seen and it will always be night
Trees will die
All vegetation will die
Radiated men will eat the flesh of radiated men
The sea will be poisoned
The lakes and rivers will vanish
Rain will be the new gold
The rotting bodies of men and animals will stink in the dark wind
The last few survivors will be overtaken by new and hideous diseases
And the space platforms will be destroyed by attrition
The petering out of supplies
The natural effect of general decay
And there will be the most beautiful silence never heard
Born out of that
The sun still hidden there
Awaiting the next chapter.

Charles Bukowski; 11/21/09, 5:02 PM
Anonymous said...: "Isn't everybody forgetting that the actual count in the Senate is?"

It doesn't matter what the alleged count is. Democrats and Repulicans have made a deal to pass health care tax increases with no Republican votes.

Republicans could stop it ... by refusing to allow an increase in the debt ceiling next month.

But they won't. They'll give Barack Obama his unlimited credit card.

They're turncoats just as bad as the Democrats.

Vote them all out.

Only solution.; 11/21/09, 5:04 PM
former law student said...: ""Democrats Clinch Vote on Health Debate.""

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning. -- Sir Winston Churchill

Franken stealing that election from Coleman in Minnesota looks pretty big about now...

You mean Sorm Closerman?

Count every vote.; 11/21/09, 5:07 PM
former law student said...: Now if the democrats can get amnesty for millions of illegals

If Republicans quit hiring them, they wouldn't come. It's not Democrats who want to bust the unions, drive wages down, and ignore worker safety.; 11/21/09, 5:09 PM
Sprezzatura said...: PatCA,

You're letting down your fellow con freedom fighters.

"they have all been promised lucrative jobs as Health Panel Commissars"

I think you meant,

they have all been promised lucrative jobs as DEATH Panel Commissars

Sheesh, you cons are slacking w/ your hyperventilation. Though, in your defense, you did sort-of imply the need for a civil war.

On the other hand, you did completely forget to mention an ACORN link.

Overall, you've earned a 6.5 on the con-conniption meter (scale is 1 to 10).

Try harder.; 11/21/09, 5:12 PM
LonewackoDotCom said...: former law student opines: It's not Democrats who want to bust the unions, drive wages down, and ignore worker safety.

Thank you for that moment of bipartisan clarity.

Just kidding. The problem is actually above partisanship: it's a case of the elites against the rest of us. The great majority of elites no matter their ideology support mass imm., no matter the costs to the rest of us.

If anyone would like to do something that would be very effective, encourage others to form groups to go make pols look bad on video over this issue. Those local groups would have to find the most experienced person - such as a trial lawyer - to ask the question. And, one of the best ways would involve asking someone who supports the bill the question here. (P.S. that's a bipartisan bill).

You the reader don't even have to do that much: all you need to do is encourage others to form a group. Despite how little effort would be involved, it's nearly impossible to get others to help with that. In a way it's Darwinistic: they're like a tribe that sits around whining about how other tribes are going to eat them rather than taking steps to avoid being eaten.; 11/21/09, 5:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Rhetoric, tea parties, and letters to our Congressmen aren't getting it done on healthcare. Maybe some action would wake up the Congress critters.

Why not a one-day nationwide strike of all those against the healthcare bill? It's the people who are working and earning who will have to pay for this turkey. They can make themselves heard with a strike. The message will be unmistakable. Put this through and we go Galt.

Time for deeds not posturing.; 11/21/09, 5:21 PM
Rialby said...: Yeah, it's only Republicans - those Monopoly banker types - that employ illegals. Can we cut it with the stereotypes? People from both sides of the aisle employ illegals and what's the downside? What do they get, a slap on the wrist?

No business owner in his right mind is going to play it straight if the punishment is weak. You need tops-down pressure in the form of serious fines against scofflaw and stepped up pressure as well as bottoms-up measures like border fencing, patrols, deportation to make it work.; 11/21/09, 5:22 PM
Wince said...: Titus said...
I think Mary Landrieu is kind of cute and I am shocked that a democrat from Louisiana won the last election.

Really? Lately, I think she's starting to look more and more, well, porcine, like the original Patunia Pig.

And I don't think it's just the $100 million gift from Porky Reid that makes me think so.; 11/21/09, 5:23 PM
kent said...: I'll just be over here in a corner curled up in a little ball.

I know, I know. If only there'd been some way you could have possibly known.; 11/21/09, 5:23 PM
Rialby said...: "You need tops-down pressure in the form of serious fines against scofflaw and stepped up pressure as well"

Should have read, "You need tops-down pressure in the form of serious fines against scofflaws and stepped-up raids as well"; 11/21/09, 5:23 PM
Unknown said...: Irene said...

@edutcher--Exactly. Look what happened to Trotsky.

It took about 15 years for Beria to nail old Leon. The textbook example, I believe, is Cuba or Germany (the SA).

WV "eplies" (Like last weekend) What hett did when Scalett asked, "Whe'e will Ah go, what will Ah do?".; 11/21/09, 5:24 PM
Jeremy said...: And now we'll hear the Republicans say no in 15 different languages.

The party of obstruction...and as more and more people lose their employment provided insurance...or can no longer afford to pay for their own...they will pay for it in the next elections.; 11/21/09, 5:24 PM
former law student said...: If only there'd been some way you could have possibly known.

Why isn't she happy her candidate's goals are on the road to getting accomplished?

If government-provided health care is so bad, why doesn't she change employers? Or does the University of Wisconsin provide a private option?; 11/21/09, 5:29 PM
Wince said...: Time to hack off your breasts with a sharp piece of glass, sell the fat to Peruvian gangs and be done with it?

I'm having my own moobs appraised now.

wv- "unapo" = explaining our aversion to dog food... for the time being; 11/21/09, 5:31 PM
kent said...: Why isn't she happy her candidate's goals are on the road to getting accomplished?

My point.; 11/21/09, 5:34 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 11/21/09, 5:35 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I think support for this thing tops out at only at 35%. This nation does not want Tax Payer Funded Health Care.

@ April. You realize that it doesn't matter what we want at all, don't you? This and every other Socialist wet dream is being crammed forcefully down our throats. They don't care about us or what we want.

Once this passes it can never be completely undone and we are doomed to decades of crushing debt and spiraling into a third world debtor nation status.

Just wait until we get the icing on the cake...the coup de grace....the stake through the heart of industry and our economy. Permanently destroying the country.

Thanks Ann and all who voted for this corrupt administration.; 11/21/09, 5:37 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: That would be Cap and Trade.

Any business who can, WILL move offshore.; 11/21/09, 5:38 PM
Jeremy said...: Rialby - Yeah, if we could only get rid of those horrible illegals...then everything would be just swell.

The blame game continues.; 11/21/09, 5:41 PM
former law student said...: third world debtor nation status.

Universal health care goes along with First World status, except for the US. In fact, I know a country with universal health care to which we give annually $2.5 billion in foreign aid.; 11/21/09, 5:42 PM
Jeremy said...: Da Bunny - "This and every other Socialist wet dream is being crammed forcefully down our throats."

Unless of course you opt out and buy your own insurance.

Has that fact ever entered your tiny mind?

And, as for that "socialism" being crammed down your throat...do you include Medicare, Medicaid, Veteran's Benefits, Unemployment, Child Welfare, etc. in the mix?

DUH.; 11/21/09, 5:44 PM
Jeremy said...: Maybe we could all get the insurance coverage the GOP Senators have.

Ya think?; 11/21/09, 5:45 PM
TWM said...: "If government-provided health care is so bad, why doesn't she change employers? Or does the University of Wisconsin provide a private option?"

This is such a ignorant statement. The same statement that is made about public employees, especially federal ones, all the time. I'm pretty sure all public employees, and definitely the feds, do not have government run health care. The government, as the employer, pays a percentage of the cost of private health insurance like most big employers, but it is not government health care as in the government insures you and makes decisions on your care.

I could be wrong but my guess is the University of Wisconsin uses a private plan for its employees.; 11/21/09, 5:48 PM
former law student said...: Any business who can, WILL move offshore.

A trend that started at least forty years ago. My career has resembled a log rolling competition more than anything else, as successive logs were spun overseas.; 11/21/09, 5:50 PM
Once written, twice... said...: To undo this it will require a Republican President with a Republican majority in the House and a Republican super majority (60) in the Senate. The earliest that this can happen is three years from now. It is very unlikely that Republicans can put together this super majority in our life time.

The good news is that just like how Republicans now support and find value in Medicare even though they opposed it a generation ago, a generation from now Republicans will support universal health care. It takes sensible Democrats to show political courage and save the country from the fat cats, the Know Nothings, and the Althouse hillbillies.

Thank you President Obama and the Democratic congress!; 11/21/09, 5:52 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: The party of obstruction...and as more and more people lose their employment provided insurance...or can no longer afford to pay for their own...they will pay for it in the next elections.

And why can't they afford it? Could it be because Obama and the Democrats flushed a trillion (including interest) down the drain paying off their constituents in his "stimulus" package? And then compounded that with 8,000 earmarks in the appropriations bill he signed into law? Are allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire (resulting in effective tax rate increases)? Are pushing health care "reform" and Tax and Bribe (aka Cap and Trade) also involving major tax rate increases? Are considering VAT? All during the biggest recession in the last 50 years?

It is as if the Democrats believe that some sort of magic thinking is going to get us out of this recession. And so they can do whatever they want to the economy in the meantime, without any cost.

Thank goodness that the (remaining) Republicans in Congress are the Party of Obstruction. I cannot think of a single thing that they are being obstructionist about that would benefit the economy. Rather, the best thing for that economy is the obstruction that you so bemoan.

And, yes, just wait until the next election. You are engaging in wishful magical thinking if you believe that flushing trillions down the toilet to pay off political constituents, enacting major tax increases during a recession, and depriving people of health care that they would have had absent health care "reform" is going to help the electoral prospects of politicians outside solidly blue districts.; 11/21/09, 5:59 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: ...do you include Medicare, Medicaid, Veteran's Benefits, Unemployment, Child Welfare, etc. in the mix?

Yes. Mostly.

Medicare, I have paid for all of my working life and will be forced to pay premiums for Part B or be fined, when the time comes. What if I don't WANT to have medicare? I'm forced to pay anyway. This is certainly Socialism at work.

Medicaid, child welfare are better handled by charities that can monitor the rampant fraud.

Unemployment INSURANCE is supposed to be funded by premiums paid by the employers and be a limited duration. However, now UI is almost a career funded by taxpayers.

Veteran's benefits....they paid full well for those and I have no compunctions about granting them even at taxpayer expense. Because if we didn't have the protection of the military and sacrifice of the Veteran's, we might not even be here and able to pay taxes.

Anytime you forcibly take money from the productive class and give it with no strings attached to the non productive (you know from those according to their ability to those according to their need)you are talking about Socialism if not out and out Communism.

@FLS, what part of debtor status don't you understand? As we spend more and more of a portion of GDP on health care and NOW mandatory health insurance and the "G" part of the equation that is provided by private industry diminishes we will go into a death spiral as a country.; 11/21/09, 6:01 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: The good news is that just like how Republicans now support and find value in Medicare even though they opposed it a generation ago, a generation from now Republicans will support universal health care. It takes sensible Democrats to show political courage and save the country from the fat cats, the Know Nothings, and the Althouse hillbillies.

Keep dreaming, and, also keep in mind that a substantial number of Republicans did vote for Medicare.

And just wait until parents and loved ones are consigned to death because of your vaunted universal health care, and see how popular it really is.; 11/21/09, 6:02 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Maybe we could all get the insurance coverage the GOP Senators have.

I pay for mine. I pay for theirs. The difference is that I am likely to lose what I have, and they are not. But at least the Republican Senators are going to vote against that. The Democratic Senators are going to vote to deprive me of a very good health care policy, while keeping an even better one for themselves. All in the name of equality and spreading the wealth around - as long as some people are more equal than others, and they, of course, are the most equal.; 11/21/09, 6:06 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Universal health care goes along with First World status, except for the US. In fact, I know a country with universal health care to which we give annually $2.5 billion in foreign aid.

If you want to downgrade to a Second World country, fine.; 11/21/09, 6:08 PM
Chip Ahoy said...: Observing a political party transform my wonderful country into another run-of-the-mill socialist state, and further observing partisan voters through their profound ignorance and solid meanness gleefully insisting on being led into the very servitude my predecessors went to great lengths to escape, and all this against the clear wishes of the majority, and then crowing about it distresses me greatly. These people are not qualified to run our lives and yet that prerogative is granted them.

I am unlikely to ever vote for a Democrat or for a Republican again. I realize by the lights of some analysis this means throwing away my vote, but I simply can not associate with what these two miserably corrupted parties claim to be doing.

But I am largely immune to the effects of the present debacle. I personally will come out ahead. So shut up and get busy working on my behalf, Bitches.

But all this nothing from which a little roasted turkey and chicken could not distract. It's one of my favorite things.

Roasted turkey and chicken

Turkey and chicken broth; 11/21/09, 6:14 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: @ April. You realize that it doesn't matter what we want at all, don't you? This and every other Socialist wet dream is being crammed forcefully down our throats. They don't care about us or what we want.

And why the hurry to get all this passed? Because they know (though apparently some of the posters here haven't figured it out), that this is their ONE year to get all those liberal wet dreams accomplished. Next year is election year, and the Democrats are highly likely to lose most of their majority in the House, if not total control. Why? They would likely be losing at least half their majority there even if the economy were flying long just fine, due to Republican registration edges in the respective districts. Keep in mind that some 80 or so Democratic Representatives are from districts that voted for a Republican for President in either 2004 or 2008, and are therefore likely either swing or Republican leaning districts.

That is before we factor in the extraordinarily reckless and feckless spending increases severely lengthening and deepening the current recession, a level of corruption not seen in our life times, and an almost total disregard for national security.

Speaker Pelosi is intentionally sacrificing the seats of many of those Democratic Representatives sitting in swing districts. The amazing thing is that Harry Reid is following along, sitting in one of the most vulnerable Democratic Senate seats in the next election.; 11/21/09, 6:21 PM
former law student said...: @FLS, what part of debtor status don't you understand? As we spend more and more of a portion of GDP on health care and NOW mandatory health insurance and the "G" part of the equation that is provided by private industry diminishes we will go into a death spiral as a country.

At least health care dollars tend to be spent in this country, not shipped to China. In fact I see our negative current account balance has been cut in half since 2008. Go Obama!; 11/21/09, 6:22 PM
Anonymous said...: This is probably going to get me off my chair and out doing things to get rid of these scum bags in Washington DC.

My guess is that a lot of other regular folk feel the same.

Obama has told the Blue Dogs that their constituents will have wonderful memories of them.

But the entire fiasco will go down as one of the worst votes in history, even before the Robert's court throws the unconstitutional pieces out.; 11/21/09, 6:23 PM
former law student said...: a level of corruption not seen in our life times

This statement is plausible only if Bruce were a newborn. C'mon Bruce, back up your statements.; 11/21/09, 6:23 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: In fact I see our negative current account balance has been cut in half since 2008. Go Obama!

Due in part to the precipitous decline of the US Dollar against other currencies.

Yep...Go Obama. Soon we too can be like Botswana.; 11/21/09, 6:31 PM
Sprezzatura said...: "C'mon [insert Althouse ranter, of any political allegiance], back up your statements."

That sort of requirement would just about shutdown the Althouse comment threads.; 11/21/09, 6:32 PM
dcm said...: i work for a small firm. our health insurance has gone up by over a hundred percent in the last five years. it cannot continue as is. is our fine hostess going to lose her fine wisco health insurance? no. why is she curled up? her health insurance is some of the best in the country. i think ya'll live in a dreamworld. this needs to happen.; 11/21/09, 6:36 PM
kent said...: Due in part to the precipitous decline of the US Dollar against other currencies.

Shhhhh. No talking over the heads of the proudly innumerate.

"Mmmmm, mmmmm, mmmmmmm."; 11/21/09, 6:36 PM
dcm said...: i work for a small firm. our health insurance has gone up by over a hundred percent in the last five years. it cannot continue as is. is our fine hostess going to lose her fine wisco health insurance? no. why is she curled up? her health insurance is some of the best in the country. i think ya'll live in a dreamworld. this needs to happen.; 11/21/09, 6:37 PM
ricpic said...: Right Chip, you won't end up under a bridge, everyone else will but not you because you've taken precautions. Keep repeating that mantra. It'll be a warm blanket against the winds whipping under that bridge.; 11/21/09, 6:38 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Speaking of backing up beliefs w/ data:

DBQ,

Where was the dollar v euro during the period from August to December of 2008?

How did those conversion rates compare to the current levels?; 11/21/09, 6:38 PM
Fr Martin Fox said...: Y'all do realize this is NOT the essential vote?

The 60 votes Reid apparently garnered is on the motion to proceed. That motion is not usually filibustered; the filibuster, when deployed, is usually reserved for the motion to call the question--i.e., to proceed to a vote.

That will come later.

It would be striking indeed if Reid didn't get 60 votes even to bring the bill to the floor; and it is striking that it is so dicey a thing.

The Republicans are saying, this is the vote, and that's fine to do--but after it's over, they will focus on the next cloture vote. And THAT will be the vote.

That's when the pressure will really be on Lincoln, Nelson and Landrieu, not to mention a host of other Dems facing dicey re-elections. They are hoping that Leiberman, Lincoln, Nelson or Landrieu will take the heat off them.

Stay tuned...; 11/21/09, 6:43 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Speaking of backing up beliefs w/ data:

OK. Why don't you do that?; 11/21/09, 6:44 PM
dcm said...: my guess is that all of you who are against this have fine health insurance.; 11/21/09, 6:44 PM
former law student said...: Due in part to the precipitous decline of the US Dollar against other currencies.

Yes, the dollar has sunk against the euro to levels not seen since the period from February 2008 to August 2008. So you're gonna have to find another explanation how we cut the CAD in half since 2008.

Shhhhh. No talking over the heads of the proudly innumerate.

While I appreciate your modesty, yet I must hope that some of this will sink in.; 11/21/09, 6:45 PM
David said...: I am 66 years old. I am alive today because of a very expensive drug, Gleevec, that successfully treats my leukemia. If I live to 70 or 76 or 86, this bill probably will not have a major direct effect on my life, unless some "Death Panel" decides that I sam no longer eligible for Gleevec based on some cost benefit principle. I think that possibility is pretty remote.

On the other hand, my children, who are in their 30's and 40's and my grandchildren, who are young children right now, will be saddled with the immense cost of a government run health plan. They also will confront rationing and a decline in innovation, because government and not the innovation of the marketplace will have the biggest influence on the incentives to innovate.

Much of the weight of the cost and decline in quality of care will be invisible, lost in the general haze of life in a closely regulated and highly taxed society.

I believe that the fix is in and that the so called moderate democrats are now engaged in a theatrical display that will result in the government takeover of health care that Obama, Reid and Pelosi want.

Sad day.; 11/21/09, 6:45 PM
kent said...: While I appreciate your modesty, yet I must hope that some of this will sink in.

Shaky grammar, thereby muffling (and thus rendering ineffectual) a squeaked attempt at snark. I give it a 2, tops.; 11/21/09, 6:51 PM
David said...: Want evidence, trolls?

Go back and read the Op Ed earlier this week by the Dean of the Harvard Medical School. Basically he said that the bill is being sold based on foolishly optimistic projections of cost containment, unrealistic and dishonest projections of cost and reckless disregard of the impact of the proposals on quality of care.

He also said that many opponents of the bill were equally dishonest in their objections.

In his view, this irresponsible approach on both sides was about to result in a disastrous piece of legislation. He recommended that the whole process begin again with some honesty and reality in the debate.

The Hippocratic Oath is "First, do no harm." Our legislators have ignored this and are about to pass a very harmful bill.; 11/21/09, 6:54 PM
Donal said...: FLS so what has Obama done to cut the CAD in half? Provide us all with same links to what he has done.; 11/21/09, 6:55 PM
Titus said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 11/21/09, 6:57 PM
David said...: Or read the commentary by David Broder out today on the Washington Post web site.

This is the sleaziest, most dishonest piece of legislative action in long time.; 11/21/09, 6:58 PM
David said...: Dream on, Father Fox. The fix is in.; 11/21/09, 7:00 PM
Sprezzatura said...: DBQ,

FLS has taken the fun out of my question. Too bad you didn't look at the 2008 dates that I gave you. I was hoping that you would enjoy excitedly relaying how the dollar was stronger during that time period.

Of course, FLS has already relayed what was happening w/ the dollar for the majority of 2008. The exchange rates from that period do contradict your expressed belief that the dollar is somehow breaking new ground on the down side today.

Oh well.; 11/21/09, 7:01 PM
former law student said...: Basically he said that the bill is being sold based on foolishly optimistic projections of cost containment, unrealistic and dishonest projections of cost

Because it leaves our existing systems of health insurance and health care delivery in place -- A single payer, coordinated government-run system would fix those ills.

and reckless disregard of the impact of the proposals on quality of care.

Basically Flier fears a Kaiser-Permanente system of paying per patient and not per service.

Kaiser Permanente has only been around since WW II when Henry J. established it for his Liberty ship workers, so Flier's fears are unfounded. In fact, Blue Cross/Blue Shield (originally not-for-profit, today largely for profit) didn't take off until WW II, so the systems and their outcomes could be closely tracked if anyone -- like the Dean of HMS -- would care to.; 11/21/09, 7:05 PM
David said...: Trolls:

Here's what a former director of the Congressional Budget Office said of the health care bills in a piece today:

. . . the bills are fiscally dishonest, using every budget gimmick and trick in the book: Leave out inconvenient spending, back-load spending to disguise the true scale, front-load tax revenues, let inflation push up tax revenues, promise spending cuts to doctors and hospitals that have no record of materializing, and so on.

A complete horror show.; 11/21/09, 7:06 PM
Fr Martin Fox said...: Titus:

I always thought you were a nice fellow, albeit eccentric.

I really don't appreciate that remark, and I think you know that.; 11/21/09, 7:07 PM
David said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 11/21/09, 7:07 PM
Fr Martin Fox said...: David:

We'll see.; 11/21/09, 7:07 PM
Titus said...: Oh please Father Fox, everyone here is wondering the same question.

Don't take offense.; 11/21/09, 7:10 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: The exchange rates from that period do contradict your expressed belief that the dollar is somehow breaking new ground on the down side today.

Since "today" and the "short term" are all you liberals seem to be capable of comprehending, there is no real argument that can get through your smug exterior. Your view is about as long as your dick.

However for the rest who might be interested..

If the current account deficit were to be reduced, it would be because foreign investors would no longer be willing to accept U.S. Dollar denominated debt, which is being used to finance the current account deficit. This would cause the current account deficit to shrink as foreigners would be less willing to sell goods to Americans in exchange for U.S. Dollars. If foreigners decide they do not want to hold any more U.S. Dollars, the exchange rate will fall, as with anything else, if the demand for a good goes down, so does its price. So a falling U.S. trade deficit would lead to falling demand for the U.S. Dollar, leading to a depreciation of the U.S. dollar on foreign exchange markets.

Investors are selling US Dollars because they think/know that they will be worth less in the future. This is what is happening now. Especially since it appears likely that the US Dollar will no longer be the preferred currency for international trade.

If you’re in the United States, it means that goods from other countries, such as Canadian maple syrup, will become more expensive as the Canadian dollar is now worth more relative to the U.S. one, as we saw in the article “ A Beginner's Guide to Purchasing Power Parity”. However, it also means that American goods are now cheaper in Canada, so we should see exports to Canada rise. While a falling U.S. Dollar sounds bad, if you own or work for a company that sells goods abroad, the future may be getting brighter.

So while imports and just about everything else will cost the citizens more to buy, the exporting of goods by some companies will increase and thus our negative trade imbalance will go down......for a while at at the expense of the population in general.

economics 101.; 11/21/09, 7:11 PM
Sprezzatura said...: David,

You do realize that referencing an R (I'm guessing Holtz-Eakin, McCain campaign guy) isn't very impressive.

The equivalent would be me saying that Orszag approves of the Health Care bill.

Don't be dumb. Don't present dumb arguments.; 11/21/09, 7:11 PM
miller said...: wow this is so exciting! From America the Beautiful to Just Like Another Country.; 11/21/09, 7:17 PM
Darcy said...: Shame on you, Titus.; 11/21/09, 7:18 PM
Adele Mundy said...: Titus, that was really out of line.

You should delete that.

If not the blog owner should.; 11/21/09, 7:20 PM
Sprezzatura said...: DBQ,

WTF?

I'll help you, with the math.

1) FLS has noted that the CAD is greatly reduced from 2008.

And,

2) FLS has relayed that the dollar is not breaking new ground from where it was for most of 2008.

So, you have been presented w/ the fact that the dollar is not as weak as it was in 2008, but the CAD is greatly reduced from where it was in 2008.

What do you do with these facts? You cut and paste a quote that says it is impossible for these facts to occur.

Doesn't reality matter at all to you?; 11/21/09, 7:23 PM
former law student said...: economics 101.

We are crawling out of our spot as world's largest debtor nation, yet dbq doesn't see it.

Bush bankrupted the Treasury (he did not wreck the economy single-handed, so I won't blame him for that.); 11/21/09, 7:26 PM
Lawyer Mom said...: But Ted was watching! Ted was watching!; 11/21/09, 7:30 PM
lucid said...: @jeremy:

surely you know that you are not really making any sense at all? for example, the nonsense about just buying your own insurance? this bill changes the entire system--it is not just an add-on to what exists now.

but you were just joking with your arguments, weren't you? just making silly fun?; 11/21/09, 7:36 PM
Michael Haz said...: Titus, an apology from you to Fr. Fox is called for. Otherwise, absent yourself.; 11/21/09, 7:38 PM
kent said...: For those hereabouts with wit enough to realize that the past is, indeed (as Shakespeare said) prologue: an object lesson.; 11/21/09, 7:39 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Because it leaves our existing systems of health insurance and health care delivery in place -- A single payer, coordinated government-run system would fix those ills.

Wishful and magical thinking. But contrary to reality. Or, don't you know about how policies have to be qualified to remain? That sort of thing. And you have provided exactly zero evidence that a single payer coordinated government run system would not, in fact, result in a reduction in the quality of health care provided. Or, again, do you routinely engage in magical and wishful thinking when it comes to the government?

and reckless disregard of the impact of the proposals on quality of care.

Which is, of course, part of the issue.

Basically Flier fears a Kaiser-Permanente system of paying per patient and not per service.

Which is, of course, not an answer to the question, but rather, a diversion.

Kaiser Permanente has only been around since WW II when Henry J. established it for his Liberty ship workers, so Flier's fears are unfounded. In fact, Blue Cross/Blue Shield (originally not-for-profit, today largely for profit) didn't take off until WW II, so the systems and their outcomes could be closely tracked if anyone -- like the Dean of HMS -- would care to.

Indeed, a total irrelevancy as a response.

Besides, it should be noted that the Kaiser plan has really never taken off, and part of the reason is that while it looks good on paper, those on such a plan soon come to realize that they usually can't have their own doctor, but get whomever is available, and the doctors have less incentive to actually help and communicate with their patients.

On the other hand, I am quite happy with my BC/BS policy, which unfortunately has a high deductible (since it is paired with an HSA), and thus will not survive the institution of ObamaCare. (in partial refutation of your original point above).

So, let's compare a high deductible BC/BS policy with an HSA to Kaiser. Under the former, you have a personal incentive to minimize unneeded health care, but have quite a bit of control over what doctors you go to and what health care you receive. Under the later, your care is controlled by Kaiser, and you have very little recourse if they decide on a low cost solution (such as pain killers instead of back surgery). Furthermore, the doctors have little allegiance to their patients for several reasons. One is that their first allegiance is to their paycheck, which has little connection to the level of care they provide (but rather, how much money they save and patients they can treat). Secondly, it is much harder to build a long term relationship between doctors and patients.

If Kaiser were really that great of a model for health care, I have little doubt that in the 65+ years since its inception, it would have mostly taken over in this country. It hasn't, and hasn't really expanded all that much since I first ran into it 35 years ago when I was selling health insurance.; 11/21/09, 7:45 PM
reader_iam said...: Titus: Have YOU ever done an "alt[a]r boy?

Wait--why even be so precise and limited? Have YOU ever done a minor, once you weren't one yourself?

Wait--why not REALLY go for the gold: Titus, how long have you been doing minors, or at least, when did you stop doing minors?

Gee, these out-of-the-blue cheap shots at people whom one doesn't know in real life are a real jollies-producer!

(Not.); 11/21/09, 7:48 PM
chickelit said...: Titus, I suspect that your company stands to gain quite a bit from this debacle.

We'll see how you respond when Obama pushes full intellectual property law harmonization with WIPO. Maybe you'll end up at that outpost in Middleton.; 11/21/09, 7:48 PM
Adele Mundy said...: I hope that the blog adminstrator would have the decency to delete that post and admonish the person who made it.

But I will not hold my breath.; 11/21/09, 7:49 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: We are crawling out of our spot as world's largest debtor nation, yet dbq doesn't see it.

Bush bankrupted the Treasury (he did not wreck the economy single-handed, so I won't blame him for that.)

Huh?

I am sure by now that you have seen the graphs of the levels of deficit spending officially predicted for the next decade or so (and including the last decade or so). And Obama in his first year has tripled Bush's deficit last year, and the deficit spending extends at those levels as far as the eye can see (or until brought under control by a change in government). All that before ObamaCare and Tax and Bribe (aka Cap and Trade). The former is supposed to only cost a trillion or so dollars over the next decade, excluding such trivialities as the fact that Congress is not about to really cut Medicare reimbursements much, if at all, that both programs would inevitably reduce employment (and thus revenue levels), or the Laffer effect on the anticipated tax increases.

But, as you pointed out, it isn't all Bush's fault.; 11/21/09, 7:52 PM
reader_iam said...: Martin Fox posts under his real name, and his profile makes clear his affiliation.

Titus, of course, does not, which is why he feels free to ask such a thing, which he knows full well is inflammatory, out of the blue and out of context in a non-relevant thread, apparently because he dislikes a comment and/or opinion.

Titus, there has been at least a time or two I've gone to bat for you. This time, I'd rather throw my glove at you.

Get a grip.

wv: blect. (Speaks for itself, I think.); 11/21/09, 8:02 PM
Adele Mundy said...: Catholic bashing seems very popular at this site.; 11/21/09, 8:06 PM
former law student said...: When titus, or any commenter, acts up, why not just ignore him? At least let him know one time only he's crossed a line that should not be crossed, and stop responding after that. Bomb throwers are gratified when they see everyone react.; 11/21/09, 8:07 PM
Titus said...: I apologize.

I did not mean to offend.

I feel bad that this caused much constertation.

Again, I am very sorry.

Please accept my apology.

And Father Fox I apologize.; 11/21/09, 8:11 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: "It’s arrogant to dump 15 million low-income Americans into a medical ghetto called Medicaid that none of us or any of our families would ever want to join. It’s arrogant to send to the states, which are going broke, a big chunk of the bill. It’s arrogant to tell the American people that the bill will only cost $849 billion and think they’re not smart enough to read it and figure out that it will actually cost $2.5 trillion when it’s fully implemented. It’s arrogant to say paying for the physicians’ reimbursement is not an important part of a health care bill — even as they run over here in the dead of night and run up the deficit with a separate quarter-trillion-dollar bill to fix that. It’s arrogant to cut and tax Grandma’s Medicare, which is going broke, and then spend it on somebody else. It’s arrogant to tell us that it’s going to reduce premiums for most Americans when, in fact, it increases premiums for most Americans."

-Lamar Alexander

It's also arrogant to ignore
the fact that a majority of citizens do not want tax payer funded government sanctioned health care.; 11/21/09, 8:12 PM
Adele Mundy said...: "I have never yet seen any plan which has not been mended by the observation of those who were much inferior in understanding to the person who took the lead in the business."
Edmund Burke; 11/21/09, 8:19 PM
reader_iam said...: At least let him know one time only he's crossed a line that should not be crossed, and stop responding after that. Bomb throwers are gratified when they see everyone react.

FLS: If I feel like posting two, rather than one, I damn well will. I'm back here for a third comment on this thread only because of *your* comment. You have no standing, so far as I'm concerned, and specifically with regard to me and when and if I choose to respond to that sort of thing, as arbiter of either ignoring or bomb-throwing.

With that, comment out.; 11/21/09, 8:20 PM
hdhouse said...: I forget who was all over the issue "just vote up or down"...so the democrats had to get 60 or some damn fool party would start blocking votes. I think it was the same bunch of morons who used to scream about "just vote up or down".

anyone remember the name of that party? they went extinct i thing in the first decade of the 21st century....or at least that was the last time anyone heard boo from them.; 11/21/09, 8:24 PM
hdhouse said...: avwh said...
Franken stealing that election from Coleman in Minnesota looks pretty big about now..."

sure does. but he won and coleman lost and the courts judged it over and over again so stop acting like a whinning fool and get over it.; 11/21/09, 8:25 PM
former law student said...: You have no standing, so far as I'm concerned, and specifically with regard to me and when and if I choose to respond to that sort of thing.

I threw out an idea for discussion. I hate to see one mischievous poster -- not a troll -- derail a discussion. You feel differently, fine. And beyond that, I'm not trying to stifle your or anyone's freedom of expression.; 11/21/09, 8:34 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Senator Reid tonight:

"Today we vote whether to even discuss one of the greatest issues of our generation - indeed, one of the greatest issues this body has ever face: whether this nation will finally guarantee its people the right to live free from the fear of illness and DEATH, which can be prevented by decent health care for all."

Kick ass, man. Senator Reid, the holy and the precious, is gonna make it so we can all live forever. It's about time.

Orwellian, dude.; 11/21/09, 8:37 PM
Cedarford said...: The Drill SGT said...
Isn't everybody forgetting that the actual count in the Senate is:

Dems = 58
GOP = 40
Ind = 2

What is Lieberman going to do?

That is the question.

Domestically, save on certain cultural issues, Lieberman is a progressive Jew. His vote is as certain as Babs Boxer's or Al Frankens.; 11/21/09, 8:38 PM
chickelit said...: At least health care dollars tend to be spent in this country, not shipped to China.

A similar argument can be made for military spending to the extent that the money paid in salaries to tends to be saved or spent back in the States and not squandered overseas.

Healthcare budgets provide hefty chunks of money to the downstream developers and providers of instruments and pharmaceuticals. It will be interesting to see whether those industries become more or less efficient given an exclusive and guaranteed client.; 11/21/09, 8:38 PM
kent said...: this nation will finally guarantee its people the right to live free from the fear of illness and DEATH

"Mmmmmm, mmmmmm, mmmmmm." ;); 11/21/09, 8:38 PM
Fr Martin Fox said...: Titus:

I appreciate and accept your apology.; 11/21/09, 8:45 PM
Donal said...: The reason the CAD is down this year is because of the global recession.

According to the non-partisan Peterson Institute for International Economics "The 2008–09 global economic crisis and recession have reduced the US current account deficit—via a sharp decline in oil prices, slow growth, and falling imports—for the near term, but these gains are likely to be short-lived. Once the economy is back on a steady growth path, the current account deficit will at best return to about 4 percent of GDP, eventually testing the limits of external debt sustainability. But if the post-recession, long-term US fiscal deficit skyrockets, to 10 percent of GDP instead of adjusting to 2 percent—because of uncontrolled spending on health care and Social Security—the current account deficit and foreign debt could explode."; 11/21/09, 8:46 PM
Anonymous said...: What Reid really meant is "People will stop fearing illness and death if we give them something that makes illness and death look good by comparison."; 11/21/09, 8:59 PM
Roux said...: My Senator, Mary Landrieu just got her 50 pieces of silver. She won't run again so she really doesn't care. The $100 million will be stolen or wasted. After all it's Louisiana and even though Bill Cold Cash Jefferson is headed to jail it's like a criminal enterprise. They'll be someone to take his place.; 11/21/09, 9:01 PM
KCFleming said...: Fr. Fox,
That was magnanimous.

I'm not so forgiving, not right now.

I have for a long while skipped the majority of his posts because when he lets his gay gadfly cute-little-trickster mask slip, he shows a dark and ugly heart.

It is that sort of person who is running the country, creating a utopian socialist shithole.

So no, I do not forgive, because the injury is just begininning.
Right now, I am tempted to spit on my hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

See you in hell, Titus.; 11/21/09, 9:01 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Are there any gays in Arkansas?

Of course. There were openly gay people at my high school in Arkansas, and that was over ten years ago.; 11/21/09, 9:08 PM
mariner said...: Florida:
... you're clearly not from Louisiana.

They love this shit there.

Well, sorta.

Louisiana is divided into (New Orleans and Baton Rouge) and the rest of the state. (New Orleans and Baton Rouge are very leftist. The rest of the state varies from very conservative to moderately liberal.

Corruption in New Orleans exceeds epic and compares only to Chicago.

Once upon a time in the 70s people were scandal-weary and elected Republican Dave Treen over Edwin Edwards as governor.

Treen was honest and pursued sane policies. But he was "boring", so Louisianians again elected Edwards.

I hope Jindal is doing well and cleaning things up.; 11/21/09, 9:09 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: RE: Landrieu and LA

After decades pouring money into Louisiana - many parts are still broken. Although yes, the corruptocrats are getting rich.; 11/21/09, 9:13 PM
KCFleming said...: I am reminded of Sydney Schanberg, the New York Times journalist who wrote favorably about the departure of the American military from Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos in 1975, winning awards for his anti-US articles.

He admired the regime change, writing of the Cambodians that "it is difficult to imagine how their lives could be anything but better with the Americans gone." He ignored news of the brutality already evident under the communist rebels.

The utopian socialist Khmer Rouge took over Cambodia in 1975 and brutally murdered approximately three million people, sometimes stacking their bones several feet high.

His more personal failure was not getting his friend and assistant Dith Pran out of Cambodia, and Pran suffered four years of starvation, beatings, and torture before Vietnam overthrew the Khmer Rouge in 1978.

In the movie, Schanberg reunites with Pran and asked,"Do you forgive me?"
Pran answered "Nothing to forgive, Sydney, nothing."

The left and the NYTimes are now doing thsame goddamned thing on our own soil.
To hell with them all.; 11/21/09, 9:19 PM
Anonymous said...: I have for a long while skipped the majority of his posts because when he lets his gay gadfly cute-little-trickster mask slip, he shows a dark and ugly heart.

Well, that is the elephant in the room.

It has been my experience with many that underneath the pith, the catty quips, and the sarcastic ridicule of irony, is a very unsettled and aggressive core.

I've chalked it up to (or perhaps as the result of) unchecked lust to consume.; 11/21/09, 9:20 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: When titus, or any commenter, acts up, why not just ignore him? At least let him know one time only he's crossed a line that should not be crossed, and stop responding after that. Bomb throwers are gratified when they see everyone react.

But Titus is not really a bomb thrower. If he were, he wouldn't be as popular here as he is. At worst, he may be guilty of throwing some of those loaves he is always talking about pinching, but doing so in humor.

Your suggestion that bomb throwers being gratified when they get a reaction out of their audience doesn't seem to apply here to Titus. Rather, he gave what appears to me to be a very heartfelt apology for having crossed the line of decency.; 11/21/09, 9:23 PM
David said...: 1jpb said...
David,

You do realize that referencing an R (I'm guessing Holtz-Eakin, McCain campaign guy) isn't very impressive.

He's a Princeton Phd. in economics, former chair of the Council of Economic Advisers and former head of the CBO. That counts for something.

But, if you don't like those credentials because he's a Republican, I re-refer you to the essay by the Dean of the Harvard Medical School, who said many of the same things, plus pointing out the negative effect on quality of care.

The process is a fiasco, the bill is a disaster. I'm all for improving health care, even if it costs more than it does not, but what we have before us is smoke and mirrors.; 11/21/09, 9:26 PM
JAL said...: Unless of course you opt out and buy your own insurance.

My understanding is that that is part of the shell game being played.

That option will be offered... until it isn't because insurance companies will be restricted and not be able to offer new policies after a certain point.

At least that was in one of the House bills.; 11/21/09, 9:34 PM
Unknown said...: Judging by the delicious quality of the comments (example: "Are you waiting until he opens the concentration camp's he's building to house all those who will defiantly refuse to be forced to buy his fucking outrageously priced health insurance policies?" by Florida) you guys should be glad that some form of universal health care will be passed, since the treatment for rabid paranoia, chronic high blood pressure, and strokes is pretty expensive.; 11/21/09, 9:58 PM
vbspurs said...: Thanks, American voters. Our country is screwed because you wanted to make "history".

Cheers,
Victoria; 11/21/09, 9:59 PM
reader_iam said...: N: Florida's a moby, at best. If you wanna base your analysis on an example like that, there's nothing to be done about it--as there never is, with regard to twin sons of different mothers.; 11/21/09, 10:05 PM
vbspurs said...: This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

Ann very rarely does this. It must've been a doozy and I am so very glad I missed it.

Fake Titus the Fifteenth is so 2008.

Cheers,
Victoria; 11/21/09, 10:06 PM
Henry said...: I still have hope that healthcare reform gets repealed or modified to small posion, even if it becomes law this year or next. The tax provisions kick in before the benefits. The 2010 and 2012 elections come before the benefits. The Democrats will have nothing but promises to run on.

This is not Social Security, a safety-net program whose initial small benefits and large contribution base kept it solvent for decades. Health reform is only "deficit-neutral" over ten years because benefits are paid for only five.

This is a balloon-payment mortgage the Democrats have bought for us. Soon, they are simply going to run out of ways to hide the hurt.; 11/21/09, 10:18 PM
Sprezzatura said...: David,

My point, as I noted in my comment, is that both sides can pull out their own CBO director (BTW, props to me for being able to guess who you quoted). Additionally, you may be interested to know that since the campaign Doug has been making the pundit rounds as a partisan hack where his job is to be anti-BHO. Also, have you been following Doug's personal difficulty as he's been looking for affordable health insurance at the same time he has pre-existing issues? Fortunately for him he's well off, but most folks looking for insurance have fewer resources, hence the need for reform.

And, your Harvard prof is not very impressive either. There is a huge list of medical folks and medical institutions who are in favor of the changes. And, could you take a moment to read this? You'll see that there are serious, experienced, and unbiased folks who really like the Senate product.; 11/21/09, 10:28 PM
miller said...: Let's have an agreement: you won't use Florida as a "conservative" and we won't use Jeremy as a "liberal." We all know they're both Mobys.; 11/21/09, 10:32 PM
KCFleming said...: "there are serious, experienced, and unbiased folks who really like the Senate product."

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.; 11/21/09, 10:33 PM
Siduri said...: Harry Reid's comment on freedom from fear of illness and [gasp] death made me remember this quote:

"They could not understand why East Germans blessed with income equality, free social welfare and full employment should flee to the highly unequal West, which bristled with unemployment and social perils. An answer came in a letter to a newspaper editor.

'My daughter’s hamster (a pet white mouse) has food, water, shelter and even medical care, and a cage full of fun curly tubes. The hamster responds by constantly trying to chew his way to freedom. I think we all understand what freedom is, and it is not a gilded cage.'"; 11/21/09, 10:57 PM
chickelit said...: And, could you take a moment to read this? You'll see that there are serious, experienced, and unbiased folks who really like the Senate product.

Well I took a moment to read it and I think it should retitled "A Millstone In the Health Care Journey".

Seriously, the opposition in the comment section of that article score better rhetorical points; 11/21/09, 11:12 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Clinch away!

A clinch a day reduces health care expenditures.; 11/21/09, 11:22 PM
Beth said...: I hope Jindal is doing well and cleaning things up.

He's not, and it's not in his interest to do so. The ethics "reforms" he championed exclude the governor's office and staff, and there are no enforcement mechanisms.

But our U.S. attorney, Jim Letten, is going full-steam, and has the support of most liberals and conservatives who care about changing the culture of corruption in our state.; 11/22/09, 12:41 AM
Unknown said...: I wonder if Ann has considered that her vote and support for Obama from her relatively powerful perch may have reduced her lifespan in a tangible way. It only takes one unlucky diagnosis. Terribly, terribly sad. Since I have taken the threat of socialism seriously, rather than subscribing to a zippy "cruel neutrality" stunt, at least if this government smothers me I will have gone down fighting and I will know it.; 11/22/09, 1:07 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: "there are serious, experienced, and unbiased folks who really like the Senate product."

Hard to believe, since I would suggest that you would have to start with a bias in order to believe that there was a need for any of this.

In short, calling someone unbiased, or having them call themselves unbiased hardly proves that it is so.

And, believing that there is a need for this legislation in the midst of the biggest recession of most of our lifetimes is a major bias. Is it really worth it to destroy the current system in order to give 5-10% of the population more extensive health care, while deepening and extending the recession as a result? I don't think so, but I will admit my biases. Will they?; 11/22/09, 2:45 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: 1jpb

Your "experts" are paid hacks too.

Only fools trust the experts on either side to be straight with them. The games that both Houses of Congress are using to fudge the figures and try to pretend that their versions of health care "reform" aren't going to be insanely expensive are too well known by now to even really to be that debatable.

I guess I am a bit down on "experts" today, after discovering that the leading climate change "experts" have been fudging results and gaming the peer review process as hard and as fast as they can to prove to us that we need to spend more trillions to combat what is looking more and more like a non-problem.

WV: sumorthe - can't decide if that is something that would be more useful for me when I was in mathematics, software, or now as an attorney. Maybe a combination of all three.; 11/22/09, 2:52 AM
kent said...: I guess I am a bit down on "experts" today, after discovering that the leading climate change "experts" have been fudging results and gaming the peer review process as hard and as fast as they can to prove to us that we need to spend more trillions to combat what is looking more and more like a non-problem.

Yup. Outstanding "real time" analysis of all of said data taking place here, here, here and here, even as we speak! ;); 11/22/09, 3:12 AM
miller said...: Wow! I just read through most of the content at those links, Kent!

Simply amazing.

And even more amazing is the "circling of the wagons" by the MSM.; 11/22/09, 8:39 AM
former law student said...: Note that the East German hamsters were chewing through their tubes to reach a country with universal health care, with a government plan mandatory for earners up to a certain level. If this be freedom, make the most of it.; 11/22/09, 9:32 AM
chickelit said...: Note that the East German hamsters were chewing through their tubes to reach a country with universal health care, with a government plan mandatory for earners up to a certain level. If this be freedom, make the most of it.

Pffft. Bismarck gave both sides universal coverage before the two sides were split apart.
The Ossies clamored for Mercedes-Benz instead of Trabant- that's what really drove them.

wv: "eydro" as in "eydroelectric"- the real power of tears.; 11/22/09, 9:57 AM
miller said...: Understand point FAIL

The point is that even hamsters don't want slavery.

Surely you don't think that so-called Universal Health Care includes hamster? Even a leftist can't be that clueless.; 11/22/09, 10:02 AM
kent said...: Even a leftist can't be that clueless.

Sucker bet. ;); 11/22/09, 10:06 AM
Sprezzatura said...: Bruce,

If you had read the link you'd know that those aren't my experts. Some even have an R background.

And, I have never spent any time looking into the science associated w/ climate change. I can guarantee you that I've never commented on this, because I haven't (unlike w/ health care) bothered to read about the issue.

In fact, the little bit that I do know about climate change would direct me towards being a skeptic, though w/o much conviction because I haven't looked at the subject. My weak, uninformed skepticism is based on:

1) Al Gore is for it.
2) When I was in school (Chem E) we needed to take a couple classes outside of our field. So, I took a very high level Fisheries class where we modeled environmental impacts on fish populations. This class used the exact systemologies that were actually used by professionals in the field. But, this modeling was complete BS, and the Fisheries folks were all dolts. So, I'm biased against all of these environmental sciences because I consider them to be folks who were too dumb to be real engineers.
3) A while back (maybe four months) NPR had an hour long program that was dedicated to piece by piece picking apart the phony, bad science origins of all this climate hype. I don't recall the names of the extremely well qualified anti-climate change experts who were interviewed, and I don't recall the names of the climate hype folks who's arguments were completely devastated. But, I wouldn't be surprised if these recently revealed emails implicated some of the folks that NPR had already thoroughly discredited. The NPR program systematically and thoroughly ripped apart the origins of climate hype as well as the ongoing propping up of the climate hype.

Anyway, unlike with climate change, I have looked into health care here and abroad. Additionally, I know a lot of folks in all sorts of positions in health care. And, the sober assessments provided at my earlier link are right on the money, unlike the climate change hype.; 11/22/09, 10:45 AM
miller said...: which boils down to

A) I trust NPR to do my thinking for me (Dittos, Laxmi Singh)
B) Instead of reading publically availably e-mail text, I will refuse to look at it because my mind is made up based upon old evidence.; 11/22/09, 10:57 AM
Andrea said...: "my guess is that all of you who are against this have fine health insurance."

Well, dcm, in my case you'd be wrong. I'm unemployed and haven't had health insurance for two years. I'm against this stupid plan.; 11/22/09, 10:57 AM
Darcy said...: See, they just don't get that, Andrea. Everyone who has fallen on hard times must want others to support them - by force. By taking some of theirs. It's just how it's done. Any other thinking is not allowed. It's not compassionate.

I wish you the best of luck in your search for employment.; 11/22/09, 12:25 PM
Jeremy said...: Andrea "Well, dcm, in my case you'd be wrong. I'm unemployed and haven't had health insurance for two years. I'm against this stupid plan."

And guess what...

If you have a real problem, you'll run right into an emergency ward, be taken care of...and if it's something you can't possibly pay for (unemployed)...and the cost of service will be at the expense of others who do have health insurance (that's what creates the higher costs, the spreading out of the expense of serving those without insurance), along with the taxpayers.

And this is precisely why we need some kind of coverage for those who cannot afford to pay themselves.

Duh.; 11/22/09, 12:26 PM
Jeremy said...: Darcy - "See, they just don't get that, Andrea. Everyone who has fallen on hard times must want others to support them - by force."

What does that even mean?

Are you saying people who are compassionate are really just assholes "forcing" their compassion on others?

Or are you saying that when someone is in need, and the government provides services such as veteran's benefits, unemployment insurances payments, child welfare, Medicare or Medicaid, etc...they're really "forcing" these taxpayer supported services on these people?

If that's the case, I suggest you yourself, and be sure to pass this along to your friends, never accept such forced services or assistance from any government agency.

And by the way, there's nothing in this health care bill that requires you to buy insurance from any specific entity. You can buy it anywhere you want...so the rest of us who do actually pay for insurance...don't have to pay higher costs to support those who dop not.

Why is it so difficult for you and other wing nuts here to understand this?

Are you really that dense?; 11/22/09, 12:36 PM
chickelit said...: And by the way, there's nothing in this health care bill that requires you to buy insurance from any specific entity. You can buy it anywhere you want...so the rest of us who do actually pay for insurance...don't have to pay higher costs to support those who dop not.

And there is nothing in either the Senate or House version of this monstrosity that preserves my right to high-deductible insurance. I've put my arguments forth in previous threads and I'd link to them but I know you won't even fucking read them.

You're just a willful shill Jeremy.

Pathetic

Duh.; 11/22/09, 1:43 PM
kentuckyliz said...: Surely you don't think that so-called Universal Health Care includes hamster? Even a leftist can't be that clueless.

The only hamsters covered will be the Lemmiwinks that chew their way to freedom.

Lemmiwinks is from the episode aptly named Death Camp of Tolerance.; 11/22/09, 2:35 PM
Jeremy said...: From Steve Lopez's column in today's L.A. Times:

OK, so a weekend athlete is playing soccer with his pals in Santa Monica, tries to make a stop and butts heads with an opposing player.

Our warrior goes down in a heap, stands up, touches his head and realizes he's bleeding.

So Lance Budris, who happens to be a doctor, is out of the game and on his way to get patched up.

"I thought about calling a friend to stitch it up," said Budris, an anesthesiologist.

Instead, he had a friend drive him to a Westside hospital, where he walked into the emergency room in his soccer gear, holding a bloody towel to his head.

After a short wait, a nurse took his vitals, an ER tech washed the gash with a saline solution and he got a tetanus shot because he couldn't remember when he'd had his last one.

Then the doctor came in, draped the area and sutured the wound, a two-layer job that required 29 stitches. Budris was on his way roughly two hours after arriving at the hospital.

The bill arrived last month.

Two bills, one for ER costs and one for the doctor's fee, totaled nearly $5,000.

For one thing, he could barely understand the bill sent him by the hospital, which he asked me not to name.

Instead, it's a snapshot of a healthcare system gone mad, in which doctors are discouraged, hospitals go out of business and costs are inflated in a shell game between health insurance companies and medical service providers, while the patients who pay their bills get shafted.

But back to Budris' bill. It listed something called "M/S SUPPLY GENERAL," which came to $1,247. Then there was another $2,425 for "EMERGENCY ROOM GENERAL."

"I'm a doctor and I can't tell you what all of that means," said Budris when we met for coffee and went over the bill together.

Then there was $360 for "PREVENTIVE CARE VACCINE," the tetanus booster.(A shot that the doctor himself buys for his practice at $27.00 a pop.); 11/22/09, 4:58 PM
mariner said...: It’s arrogant to dump 15 million low-income Americans into a medical ghetto called Medicaid that none of us or any of our families would ever want to join. -- Lamar Alexander

I'd like to highlight that once more.

I just wonder if it's arrogant for a U.S. Senator to dump 300 million American families into a health care system that U.S. Senators wouldn't want to join.; 11/22/09, 5:39 PM