For reference, Torch Lake is among the two or three most desirable places to live in Northern Michigan. Normally Moore says that Traverse City is his adopted hometown, or lies and says that he lives in Bellaire, like he has some kind of log cabin in the woods.So he lives on a lake in Michigan in a place with a taxable value $390,976? I don't get it. How is that by any stretch of the imagination rich? For that to be all a successful movie director claims for himself? It's downright humble.
Nope, his home is an expensive house on 150 ft of lake frontage.
Owner Name(s):MOORE MICHAEL & GLYNN KATHLEEN
Property Address:
*** * **** ***** **** **
CENTRAL LAKE, MI 49622
Property Information
Current Taxable Value:$390,976
School District:Bellaire
Current Assessment:$647,200
Current Homestead:100%
Current Property Class:40 - Residential
Last Year's Assessment:$647,200
Last Year's Homestead:100%
Last Year's Property Class:40 - Residential
Lake Frontage:Torch Lake
Waterfront Footage:150.48 ft. "17
ADDED: Yes, I see the $647,200 too. It's also quite modest for a man of Moore's success. It sounds like a relatively nice middle class home.
Posts
97 comments:
One quick point; the assessed value is usually close to fair market value, while teh Taxable value is adjusted because of some calculator, like in this case a 100% homestead exemption that lowers the assessed value to almost half.
And maybe things are different in Wisconson, but around here $650k is a NICE place.
And maybe he owns property elswhere? like maybe Montana?
WV: abluv; the sound of a suppressed sneeze
there are lot of scams, report them at http://www.allscamsforum.com. Participate in scam awareness initiative.
Rich or poor is not the issue. The issue is his attempt to stifle the natural economic impulse to get ahead, i.e. capitalism.
Property Information
Current Taxable Value:$390,976
School District:Bellaire
Current Assessment:$647,200
Then, there is the value of what it would sell for.
My humble little farm is worth a hell of a lot more than the assessed value.
He owns a nice condo in Manhattan
"Evil" implies a moral code.
Care to elucidate, Michael?
The value is reduced by the sound of boats droning by all day. It's like living on a freeway.
And maybe things are different in Wisconson, but around here $650k is a NICE place.
Thats a lakefront price and it depends on the lake. On Mendota (in Madison) that would get you the property and a very modest dwelling. On a remote lake you could get a nicer house. Still, seems fairly modest for a guy who I presume has made lots if cash.
My thoughts on Michael Moore are that he is a nuisance making slanted agitprop films for money...like Algore does. That is not a real danger like the danger of having a true believer Bolshevick serving as our President when everyone really wanted to see him succeed because of his being our First Black President helping us end our racial divisions.
Moore's hypocrisy exists on innumerous levels, not merely his house in Michigan. At his most basic, he is a multi-millionaire (who lives as such) who became a multi-million DUE TO our system of capitalism, not despite it.
The appraised value of the house frequently does not include the perishable consumables in the refrigerator.
It's quite plausible that the the appraised value of the house undershoots the real value of the house and all its contents by a significant margin.
How is it hypocrisy if Moore says capitalism is evil and then, being a capitalist, is himself evil?
I fully realize that all is fair in love and war and politics . . .
But why must Mr. Moore's critics retouch his photographs to make his face look so disagreeably pale and pasty?
That's going too far!!!
(This comment brought to you by "Ruddy Americans for a Just Tomorrow." Please give generously.)
Yeah, Bissage, but at the end you'll be all leathery and wrinkled up and Moore will still be a big fat pale pink smooth faced baby.
He may not be as rich as Madonna, but he's far richer than most Americans, so it's hypocrisy to decry capitalism at the same time he...
Ah, the hell with it. Hypocrisy is only a crime for the right. The left lives by one rule alone: By any means necessary, and employing capitalism to destroy it is standard fare.
Bill Ayers has spent his whole life on daddy's wallet while planning for the Revolution.
And it looks like he won, actually.
I'm guessing this is a vacation house? I remember reading something about Moore a few years ago: he was living in Manhattan and sending his kids to private school.
He made fun of a lot of poor people in "Roger and Me," and he ambushed an ill Charlton Heston in "Bowling for Columbine..." evil, indeed.
I am surprised he's so rich given that he donates all his income to charity.
Oh wait.
He makes money on his movies?
He pays salaries? (and sometimes taxes and benefits?)
Never mind.
Another confused capitalist.
WV: miangera, the Spanish equivalent of "My Way--D****T!"
"But democracy can defend itself only very feebly; its internal enemy has an easy time of it because he exploits the right to disagree that is inherent in democracy. His aim of destroying democracy itself, of actively seeking an absolute monopoly of power, is shrewdly hidden behind the citizen's right to oppose and criticize the system. Paradoxically, democracy offers those seeking to abolish it a unique opportunity to work against it legally. They can even receive almost open support from the external enemy without its being seen as a truly serious violation of the social contract. The frontier is vague, the transition easy between the status of a loyal opponent wielding a privilege built into democratic institutions and that of an adversary subverting those institutions. To totalitarianism, an opponent is by definition subversive; democracy treats subversives as mere opponents for fear of betraying its principles."
How Democracies Perish
Jean Francois Revel
I don't see the hypocrisy. Moore's earned his Black Sea dacha through his heroic efforts on behalf of the party and the workers of the world.
Well done, comrade.
Says est worth $50 mil
wv= tyrounso: big mean toothy lizard with weight issues.
Actually, Gateway Pundit only has it half right. Moore owns two side-by-side lots making over 300 feet of lake frontage on Torch Lake. Total market assessed value of $1,003,800. There's a property for sale in the same area with an asking price of $1.5 million but only half the lake frontage.
Tax assessed value is almost meaningless and market assessed value is only slightly more meaningful. As has been pointed out previously, homestead exemption makes a really, really big difference when it comes to tax assessed value. Also, it seems that compared to other lake states (MN & WI) Michigan lake property values seem to be a bit depressed.
If you check county records, Moore does indeed have the homestead exemption, yet his multi-million ($4 million?, IIRC) dollar Manhattan apartment is listed as his mailing address.
Anyway, his property may not indicate Steven Spielberg mansion-style rich, but it's a far cry from auto worker, workin' man o' The Peepul poor.
Maybe a million+ isn't a vast sum to a lawprof, but it's a huge amount to most people who aspire to own lake property Up North.
If you check county records, Moore does indeed have the homestead exemption, yet his multi-million ($4 million?, IIRC) dollar Manhattan apartment is listed as his mailing address.
Wonder if he takes a homestead exemption on the New York apartment, too. A little tax cheating wouldn't surprise me.
Michael Moore certainly has the face he deserves.
wv: chingaut (honest to blog it said that-need I say moore?)
Moore was caught a few years back filling in wetlands to expand his beach. He's also an eco-hypocrite:
Michael Moore Says "Capitalism Is Evil," But Lives On A $1 Million Estate Where He Was Caught Filling In Wetlands To Expand His Beach
Also wonder where he votes. New York or Michigan?
Also wonder where he votes. New York or Michigan?
"Or"?
"Or"?
Thought of that possibility, too.
I have spent a lot of time in that particular area of Michigan. While the market is currently depressed, his land would have cost well over one million at the time he likely bought it. While it isn't mega Hollywood rich, it costs a lot of money to live there.
Does Michael Moore buy carbon indulgences à la Gore?
@Michael
According to county records, he purchased one lot in 1995 for about $250k and the other lot in 2003 for about $640k. News accounts say that he's got a total of 10 acres. A nice house on ten acres on a comparable lake in northern MN (discounting the fact that Torch Lake is a stone's throw from Lake Michigan) with 300+ feet of lake front would probably go on the market with an asking price of between $1.5M and $2M right now. So, yeah, not obscenely rich but not an average lake home, either.
Clarification: about the mailing address, I'm assuming that it is his Manhattan apartment, I don't know that it is for a fact.
Professor, it's never time to pay attention to Michael Moore.
In Maysville/Mason County, KY $647,200 likely would be the most expensive home in town although many farms are worth more. The average household value is $72,300 in the area.
So, yes, Michael Moore is rich. Not filthy rich, but by the definition of the everyday, blue collar American he pretends to care about, he is very rich.
BTW - I have about the same amount of water frontage on a creek just a few hundred yards from the Ohio River. It doesn't help my property value any. (Which is much closer to the average value cited above than to Moore's.)
Plus, does Moore have a condo in New York? What other assets does he have? Some wealthy people don't have huge, expensive houses.
DADvocate said...
In Maysville/Mason County, KY $647,200 likely would be the most expensive home in town although many farms are worth more. The average household value is $72,300 in the area."
DAD...I went to camp on Torch Lake and have taught at Maysville CC so know both. 647k would not be the most expensive home in town by a long shot and your average is brought down by a rather substantial number of <20k properties scattered all around. further the assessments in KY are a wonder of imagination.
Torch Lake has been and will nearly always be a destination area with Traverse City and Interlochen attractions in the summer.
I wonder what gets into people. $600k isn't even possible in the Hamptons as that cost comes along as a "tear down" north of the highway at best. Or is it that the lunatic fringe right wing on this board is just so full of hatred for anything liberal that they go chasing off after this fox and yelp themselves near to death.
Knox is probably right. I doubt Moore lives on Torch Lake. It's a summer residence, IMO. Beautiful place.
And that is not the point, as a few here have said, anyway. He should be living in a modest shack and donating all of his money to the government so that we can all share his wealth. There is no need for any extra creature comforts! People are suffering, and Moore has more than he needs. :)
Awesome! Jason (the commenter) wins Best of Thread!!! (@ 8:41am)
FWIW, at least one of Moore's movies was an obscene ad hominem hit piece, passed off as professional-level art.
It's perpetual open season for Michael Moore.
Perhaps Michael Moore knows some tax loopholes, like hdhouse. Who on earth would see this film?
I don't care where Michael Moore parks his fat ass. If he was getting his paychecks from the government for making propaganda films he'd still be living in the same place, but he wouldn't be surrounded by white trash [Stupid White Men] millionaires.
It wouldn't be Labor Day without a good grilling...Althouse serves up some predictable red meat for her minions. Yawn.
He votes in NYC and Michigan. See www.thesmokinggun.com/archieve/0628041moore1.html
ZPS: Well, at least we don't eat human fingers.
Ironically, there is no greater testament to American capitalism than Michael Moore's success. He is the perfect example to hold up and say: "If he can, anyone can."
Unfortunately, many might assume that financial success and fame comes from lying, libeling, cruelty, hypocrisy and cheeseburgers. Sometimes, they would be right.
Don't think for one moment he does not understand how lucky he is and how he got what he has. He just thinks it was required to fight the good fight. We are responsible for making such stupidity worth envy. Well, not me actually, I've never paid to see any of his stuff.
Again they, and Althouse, go on the attack against Michael Moore while sidestepping the points he raises.
Again con's have trouble with nuance. I don't think Michael Moore is against having a market place where people can prosper by selling goods and services - like film making.
I'm betting he's against the abuses of power and the political power of corporations. But I haven't even seen the trailer yet so I will keep an open mind.
"Loons should just shut up and listen: Michael Moore not out to brainwash school kids."
At his most basic, he is a multi-millionaire (who lives as such) who became a multi-million DUE TO our system of capitalism...
Which is proof that capitalism sometimes rewards bad things.
Well, at least we don't eat human fingers.
Zing!
I think there needs to be film-maker reform NOW! Greedy capitalists like Moore need to have their profits taken away.
It's for the children.
"Capitalism is evil"
How can capitalism be evil? Is it a rational entity with pernicious motives? Is designed for the primary purpose of damning eternal souls? Does capitalism have a lair in which we can send knights to do battle with it and its nefarious plans for global domination?
It's a system. It's a philosophy. It's an economic approach.
And herein lies the really big problem for the "capitalism is evil" crowd. It's not capitalism that is evil. People are evil, or at least can be. Capitalism is an expression that evil people can use to dominate other people. Its benefit is that it acknowledges these faults and puts them in competition against other people's faults.
Socialism, however, by attributing evil to a system, entirely misses the fact evil is in the people. Making a whole system dependent on the people then makes for radically evil possibilities.
Socialism is dependent on the nature of humanity. A wholly good, perfectly giving, always seeking the advantage of the other, society could likely have a beautiful expression of socialism.
But there's no society on earth that has these kinds of people, and so any society that tries to depend on people being good, on leaders being good, instead runs into the wall of personal evil. But since it doesn't see personal evil, it begins to call evil good--and all kinds of utterly pernicious acts are allowed.
I'm betting he's against the abuses of power and the political power of corporations.
Sounds like an Obama hit piece.
Moore must be a "Loon," then.
"I'm betting he's against the abuses of power and the political power of corporations."
Yea, he's out there on his own, brave li'l fella. He's gonna have a hard time selling those ideas. They're so radical. Us conservatives are gonna fight for the right of the powerful to abuse us all. I personally will not rest until I have some corporate heel right on my throat.
His speaking truth to power shtick is just that, a shtick. You really have to by pretty adolescent to fall for it.
hdhouse - I've never seen a piece of property for sale for over $600,000 in Maysville/Mason County except for ones that include acreage, a farm or resort property. There are a few I suspect but it appears KY doesn't have online assessments available.
I did a MLS search and found one property for sale at $780,000 that had 105 acres. I looked at several other local realtors and in a brief search can find no strictly residential properties selling at over $600,000.
Maysville if far from a poor community but, outside of farms, $600,000 residences are virtually non-existent but there are probably a few.
Speaking of Labor Day and the oh-so great unions versus evil capitalists, public regard for unions — after staying almost constant for many decades — has plunged, even for Democrats but particularly among independents, during the last year. For the first time in polling history, it's now below fifty percent.
Michael Moore is an American success story. I think he is an idiot but he's found a way to get his views across and be well paid for it. So what if he has an expensive house? He's a liberal, not a priest. He did not have to take a vow of poverty.
Yea, I have no problem with him being rich. That's great for him, and the people he cares about. The problem is the damage caused by his film. I know many people who still believe the lies told even after they have been thoroughly debunked. That's the problem with drive by attacks - only the victims remain behind. The attackers drive on to the next victim.
Alpha - he raises no interesting points at all. He's a communist pure and simple just like you.
David - I have an objection to him using the tools of capitalism to try and bring it down. I find it very objectionable. In fact, downright repulsive and evil.
By American standards, a $400,000 waterfront spread is by no means “rich.” However, by Communist standards I believe it’s safe to say that it is absolutely filthy disgusting rich and is sufficient cause of action for the government to immediately take possession of his property and publicly execute him.
And for his final meal I suggest that he eat cake.
Michael Moore is a fat, disgusting pig and the sooner he takes a fall the better!
Michael Moore Says "Capitalism Is Evil," But Lives On A $1 Million Estate Where He-
Was Caught Filling In Wetlands To Expand His Beach
Oh come on!
Can't a guy lay down on his beach!
Jason-
It's quite plausible that the the appraised value of the house undershoots the real value of the house and all its contents by a significant margin.
fold in the value of the Twinkies in his basement and you could double his assessment.
Hypocrisy doesn't make someone wrong. Being wrong makes them wrong.
He's angling for an invite to the White House. They've forgotten him and he wants them to remember what a big addition he is to their causes. So he can sit next to famous beautiful people at DNC stuff.
Barack! Yoo hoo! Barack!! It's Michael!! Remember me? No, not *that* Michael ... Hey-- I've even I've got some wealth you can re-distribute .... Barack??!!
wv backsli
Michael Moore must be a backsli (der) to own property and be a hypocrite and all that. (Nah. He's just a lefty.)
Moore is rush limbaugh without the entertainment value. and rush wisely learned long ago to stick with audio as his medium; no one really wanted to look at him. a lesson moore needs to learn.
i'm struck by this "evil" that secular "progressives" like to reference... what is the basis of this evil? doesn't a notion of evil require a mystical dogma to define and justify it? is "evil" to be defined as something the speaker doesn't like? but then why the recourse to very heavily loaded religious terms??
eh, its just emotionalist propaganda. i guess moore isnt like rush after all. rush is self-effacive humor with a specific political trajectory. moore is a propagandist who sometimes uses humor, but in the completely humorless way of the propagandist.
IT is fairly clear that Moore is rich. Not just the adjacent Lakefront property Althouse neglects to mention (combined purchase price 890,000) but his Manhattan property, likely others, plus ownership in movie production companies, book and movie residuals.
Clearly more than several dozen law profs are worth.
But that old dumb "hypocrisy!!" charge does not hold much water. The best critics of a "system" are those from within, not standing outside looking in. Or, from another perspective, the worst revolutionaries tend to be people who themselves or their families were generously rewarded by systems they seek to topple (Marx, mill owners the Engle Family, Lev Bronstein (Trotsky), Che Guevara, Mandarin Chou En Lai, bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, lawyer's boy Mohammed Atta, Obama's longtime patrons - the radicalized billionaire Jewish Families of Chicago, Avner Mikva..)
It is Moore's challenge to come up with work that stands amongst the other famous critiques of capitalism that do stand the test of time. Not just Marxian, but "3rd Way" writings, anti-colonial capitalism treatises, intellectual basis of Asian command capitalism economies, Lee Kwan Yew's critiques on Singapore's, various western nation capitalist systems.
It is probably a ripe time for Moore to have his shot.
We are seeing the downsides to "laissez faire" globalism, Reaganomics now. Jobs gutted from America, technology and high tech jobs flowing from our shores now in addition to the good-paying industrial jobs lost.
America now the heaviest debtor nation with taxes projected to triple just to pay our foreign lenders the interest owed in 30 years. Japanese and Chinese now sign up for "Ruins of Detroit" tours.
"De-regulated Wall Street" failed. Capitalist healthcare failed to be as competitive in quality per dollar spent or cover as many people as the Euro or Asian models.
We now have a positive balance of trade with two countries out of 194. (Cuba and "Our Special Friend", Israel - with their deficit graciously made up with by 4-5 billion annually of US taxpayer aid, loans, other grants).
Another "bubble" economy has collapsed, about 40% of US wealth has "disappeared"...and it doesn't look promising to see that lost wealth come back for most.
Worker's wages have stagnated or dropped since 1980. In some states, the average wage, in real dollars, is less than it was in 1980.
No, no matter how many houses Moore has, he has fertile field to plow. We can be fairly sure though that he will explain some causes of America's decay...Corporations, stupid rich people on Wall Street, globalist traitors that sold America out...But not others (trial lawyers, government employee parasites that see any private business as evil that must be stifled, "green jobs idiots", a parasitic underclass, tens of millions of low skill illegals allowed to walk across our Borders by Republican and Dem Ruling Elites.)
As one who claims to eschew capitalism Moore is obviously a big fat liar and irony challenged.
[RE "Capitalism Is Evil"]"Bob and Harvey Weinstein executive produce the film, but won't be involved in its distribution, with Moore opting instead to deal with Overture Films and Paramount Vantage."
Overture Films, LLC, is a subsidiary of Liberty Media. The Liberty Media Corporation is an American media conglomerate and the control is exercised by company Chairman John C. Malone, with a majority of the voting shares.
Liberty Media operates three divisions: Liberty Capital (NASDAQ: LCAPA, NASDAQ: LCAPB), Liberty Entertainment (NASDAQ: LMDIA, NASDAQ: LMDIB), and Liberty Interactive Group (NASDAQ: LINTA, NASDAQ: LINTB).
Paramount Vantage is owned by Viacom (NYSE: VIA) (NYSE: VIAB).
The Weinstein Company (TWC) is an independent American film studio founded by Harvey and Bob Weinstein in 2005 after the pair left the Disney-owned Miramax Films, which they had co-founded in 1979. TWC has rental/distribution deals with Blockbuster Video (Blockbuster Inc. (NYSE: BBI) ), Showtime (Showtime Networks, Inc. a CBS Corporation)) and BET (BET Networks - Viacom) among other cable distribution channels and is a privately held company.
Very cosy with the eeeviiilll Wall Streeters ain't he?
Doesn't Moore also have a multi million dollar apartment on the upper west side of Manhatten? I assume Michael Moore is rich and benefits from a capitalistic system (and I do not begrudge him that, say what you will about his politics and ethics, but the guy has a talent for making these documentaries profitable), but also recognizes creating controversy sells movie tickets.
The best thing you can do to punish Michael Moore is ignore him. He thrives on creating controversy.
Moore's films have little to do with critiques of capitalism. He knows he loves it too. They are products designed to make money and get some bitching in that will make him cool in the crowd he hangs. That's all it is. It's just basic low brow stuff. No great social statements - just say what gets your friends to laugh, like any good clique member tries. He's not an intellect, just an opportunist and a bully like most leftists.
ZPS: Well, at least we don't eat human fingers.
I am ashamed to say my kids love lady fingers...oh wait, they are not made of meat. Nevermind.
"He makes money on his movies?"
Does he provide any or all of the working capital for production and marketing of his movies?
If not, does he make money for the investors who put up money for his movies?
Either way, he is in fact a bigger capitalist swine than 99.9999% of the idiots that will pay to see his movie.
Moore is first and foremost a con man, second a sub-mediocre film maker, and third a turd in ill-fitting clothes.
wv = mancoliq. What real men get when they are babies...
If he is a Michigan resident and he had owned the property for any length of time the market value could be considerably higher than these values.
Torch Lake is gorgeous.
Moore lives in Manhattan.
This site mentioned this quote from Stupid White Men:
"I walk among them. I live on the island of Manhattan, a three-mile-wide strip of land that is luxury home and corporate suite to America's elite..... Those who run your life live in my neighborhood. I walk in the streets with them each day" (Michael Moore, Stupid White Men, p. 51)
I happen to own that book, so I checked, and yes, it does say that.
Of humor: When I put the book back, I noticed that it is shelved next to Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man. Ah, contemporary politics-lite lit.
Gather all these mournful numbers -- 16.8% of Americans unable to find work or unable to find full-time work, 25% of 18-20 year olds unemployed/not attending school, the 70 percent of workers under 35 who are unable to set aside any money, the nearly two out of three Americans approaching retirement age who fear they won't be able to retire, and the sub-nation of low-wage Americans routinely cheated on the job -- and what emerges is a picture of a country in decline. The first nation in human history to create a middle-class majority looks increasingly to be losing it.
Median worker wage in real dollars has declined since 1980.
40% of Americans have seen their standard of living slip, by their economic quintiles, since 1980. The portion of low wage Americans without health insurance has gone up to 31% from 24% in 2000.
Happy Labor Day.
I'm off tomorrow to see what of electric energy and furnace plant, heavy tool systems of a shutdown factory that once made 5% of all plumbing valves sold and employed 510 skilled employees, can be sold as scrap. Mostly copper to China, scrap steel to India or a boutique steel mill in N Carolina for the high-nickel stuff.
Few things ...
Michael Moore got in a pissing match with Daniel Radosh over at Salon way back in 1997. At that time Radosh fired off a missive at Michael Moore that indicated that he was a hypocrite for leaving Flint and moving to the Upper West Side of Manhattan where he purchased a $1.27M condo (1997 Dollars). This is, in fact, his primary residence. He has been criticized elsewhere for sending his daughter to private school.
Interestingly, the Smoking Gun did an investigation into Michael Moore back in 2004 to determine if he voted in both NY - his primary state - and Michigan, where he maintains this $700k vacation home.
I have no problem with him having that sized, or any sized house. I do have a problem with our education system that produces people who think his movies are worth watching.
From the movie, via Reuters:
"Capitalism is an evil, and you cannot regulate evil," the two-hour movie concludes.
"You have to eliminate it and replace it with something that is good for all people and that something is democracy."
So, how does that work? Are we all going to vote on who produces what, and who it is distributed to?
I know in the movie he complains about bailouts and ties between business and government. I agree with that, but the word for that is not capitalism. It is corporatism. It is the inevitable result of too much government. Somehow I don't think Moore will ever reach that conclusion.
I wonder if that behemoth might be able to afford an LA Fitness Gym membership with a trainer. Looks like his abs might need some work, and those obliques!
"- and what emerges is a picture of a country in decline. The first nation in human history to create a middle-class majority looks increasingly to be losing it."
What we are losing is the differential between our exceptionalism in the world to being more on equal footing with it. We remain far far above the average lifestyle of most in the world, but many are catching up. They are competing for businesses that used to be our monopolies. It is unrealistic to believe we will ever have our former level of superiority. Over time it was based on resources, opportunity, freedom, education, innovation. We are less exceptional in these things now. It's not a disaster, just a different more challenging game for us.
Unfortunately, we have been robbing ourselves of some of our key strengths. Two keys to our success have been seriously shot in the foot over the last 30 years: education and freedom. During the same time many of our competitors have improved these areas where they had formerly been holding themselves back.
We could remain healthy, competitive and successful, but only by regaining what made us great in the first place: having smart people motivated by opportunity and the freedom to pursue it. This is not popular with 50% of our population who would rather opt for economic security, which is always a fantasy.
Many of our people have lost the desire to be exceptional or at least the vision to believe it possible.
Alex said...
"David - I have an objection to him using the tools of capitalism to try and bring it down. I find it very objectionable. In fact, downright repulsive and evil."
If Michael Moore can bring down capitalism, then capitalism's foundations are rotten indeed. There have been more dangerous attacks that have just made capitalism stronger.
One of the marketplaces in capitalism is a market in ideas. Michael Moore has some ridiculous ideas but he's clever enough at presenting them that he gets well paid. That's actually an affirmation of capitalism, I believe.
There is also a market in ideas in the sense of who is the most persuasive. Moore is sometimes (emphasis sometimes) pretty good at persuading the ignorant and previously convinced. But mostly he preaches to the choir, which is where the money is.
Michael Moore is basically Rush Limbaugh lite (if anything about Moore can be said to be light or lite.) But he's less entertaining than Rush, less effective, less persuasive, less important, less funny and considerably less rich.
See, capitalism still works.
Yes, I see the $647,200 too. It's also quite modest for a man of Moore's success. It sounds like a relatively nice middle class home.
You are either skewed or I'm living at the bottom of the heap.
wv: atent (not quite yet).
It depends where you live. In the suburbs of Cleveland (where I live), a 600 grand house is one of the nicest homes in the area in one of the ritzier parts of town (and you can get some really amazing homes at that price, with incredible craftwork and so forth), and you're definitely considered rich. In other parts of the country, that will get you a much more modest home. I assume Michigan is similar to Ohio.
Anyway, I've never bought this idea that Michael Moore is insincere. I hate Michael Moore, but I think he is sincerely a socialist. However, I've heard he treats employees poorly. I think I read something like that from Roger Ebert or some other film critic once, I forget.
My dad worked for a developer who built a beach house in a private development on Lake Michigan with 234 feet of frontage not far from Torch Lake. The house is assessed at $969,000. While it's no mansion, just about everything in it is top of the line. From hand-hewn beams supporting the cathedral ceiling, to the marble floors, granite countertops, elegant custom shelving, office, and entertainment unit woodwork, and cherry and hickory cabinetry, everything in this house exudes high-quality craftsmanship. Photos can be seen here.
All that to give some context of property values in the area. While perhaps not a world-class residence, Michael Moore's house is more than most middle class families in Michigan would own. It would definitely fit in the high end of middle class. So, not lavish, but definitely enjoying the benefits of capitalism.
ADDED: Yes, I see the $647,200 too. It's also quite modest for a man of Moore's success. It sounds like a relatively nice middle class home.
It's not $647k, it's over a million. Two side-by-side lots make for one property. In the upper Midwest, lake property up north worth more than a million dollars counts as "rich", a third to half that is "middle class", "working class" is 200 grand or less (and is not lake front). And unless you're talking about lake front on one of the great lakes, there's an upper limit to the amount you can spend. Even if Moore wanted to spend $5 or $10 million on lake property, he'd be hard-pressed to even find it.
Going by property alone, Moore has more in common with an asshole Chicago investment banker with a $70k SUV and 20 foot $50k closed-hull boat than he does with a workin' man with a 3-season cabin on less than an acre, used pick-up, and used 16 foot Alumacraft.
If you want to go after Gateway Pundit for his post, go after him for picking the low-hanging fruit. Say that calling Moore a big fat hypocrite regarding capitalism is like saying water is wet and attacking Moore for the way he's distorting language (his assertion that democracy, a clearly defined political system, should replace capitalism, a clearly defined economic system) is a more substantive argument. But saying that a million+ dollar property Up North doesn't count as "rich" doesn't jibe with reality.
In Michigan, the assessed value is 50 percent of the market value. (The taxable is something else, based on how long you have owned your house.)
So the state thinks the property is worth $1.2 million/
Here's what the terms mean:
Question: What are the different terms associated with property tax in Michigan
Answer:
* Assessed value = 50% of the property’s market value
* Capped value = Last year’s taxable value plus (+) the lesser of 5% or the rate of inflation
* Taxable value = The lesser of the assessed value or capped value
http://detroit.about.com/od/neighborhoods/f/proptaxterms.htm
So the property is worth $1.294 million.
I wonder- what % of families own a 2nd home? I'd guess it is no more than 5%. If my guess is right, then the 5% is a good demarcation line to measure an average family vs. a wealthy family.
Moore is surely among the very wealthy regardless of the market value of his obvious assets.
FWIW, I just returned yesterday from my cottage on Lake Michigan, on the Old Mission Peninsula near Traverse City (a stone's throw from Torch Lake). The cottage next door to us has 100 feet of private beach and is listed for sale for something like 1.2M.
The whole area is terribly depressed, Michigan's economy has been destroyed. Ironically enough, it has been destroyed by the labor unions Michael Moore so extols.
Nasty, Brutish & "The whole area is terribly depressed, Michigan's economy has been destroyed. Ironically enough, it has been destroyed by the labor unions Michael Moore so extols."
Wrong bonehead. The auto industry was nicely destroyed by auto management which had its head up its ass for any number of years. if you are a republican it automatically doesn't give you license to think like a moron.
The auto industry was nicely destroyed by auto management which had its head up its ass for any number of years. if you are a republican it automatically doesn't give you license to think like a moron.
The American people — not just Republicans — obviously disagree with you. As I pointed out earlier, the regard of Americans for unions, after staying almost constant for decades, has crashed just in the last year — with less than 50 percent now approving of unions for the first time, while the rate for independents in particular dropped precipitously in that year from 63 percent approving of unions as of 2008 to just 44 percent now.
Given the prominence of the failure and public takeover of (most of) the U.S.'s native auto industry during that same year, clearly independents (not just Republicans) believe that unions had a great deal to do with that fall. You can call the bulk of Americans “morons” if you want, but it simply reflects back on you.
So capitalism is evil to Mr. Moore? Then I wonder how he can explain its exercise by those that allow him the privilege to continually reap its benefits to continually demonize it. Mr. Moore's problem is that he doesn't realize that irony of his hypocrisy is a river that runs fairly deep and if he does, well then his proclamations put him at the forefront of being a liar or a deeply misunderstood fool. Either of which still has allowed him to make a hefty sum of money.
All this piece of visual slapstick does is give him the ability to hang out with the cool kids in their effete enclaves in whatever city their little film festivals are held at. He's finally found his golden ticket out of obscurity and doesn't have to be the laughing stock anymore. Beyond that watching him elucidate on anything at this point is like watching a loose vagina flapping it's vulva's whenever it queefs to speak.
The entire point made in the film is that our system used to be about getting rich making something people wanted to buy or providing a good service people wanted to pay for and now it is about getting rich in high finance and by "aquiring" companies, laying off their employees and flipping them at a profit. It is about morality in the monetary system, not getting rich off the backs of others' tragedy, especially the "others" who made you rich in the first place.
Brian - so you'd outlaw mergers and acquisitions? Or maybe you would put into law that a company can only grow to a certain size before it has to split into sub-companies? Also no company will be allowed to become multi-national or outsource jobs.
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