"The military didn't oust President Manuel Zelaya on its own but instead followed an order of the Supreme Court. It also quickly turned power over to the president of the Honduran Congress, a man from the same party as Mr. Zelaya. The legislature and legal authorities all remain intact."
But then why is Barack Obama — our constitutional law professor President — taking the other side — aligned, alarmingly, with Hugo Chavez?
July 1, 2009
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 217 of 217Yeah, FLS. So, the conservatives are, once again, supporting a military coup in Latin America as they have so many times. They cannot fathom why people would get angry at that.
Let alone why anyone would be angry when Glenn Beck and his guest are agreeing on Fox News that Osama bin Laden needs to attack the US.
This is all normal to conservatives and no cause for denunciation. They say anyone who would get angry at that must be weird or twisted.
It's like Bizarro world. Ethics and principles are all the opposite what they should be.
I missed this from Jim, where he assigns an argument to me I never said:
But yet Leftists keep claiming that Rush Limbaugh is the "Leader of the Republican Party" even though he has never held office or made him chair of the conservative club. .
I never said Scheurer is a leader. Glenn Beck is a favorite right wing TV blabber. This is his guest. Neither Beck nor any conservatives have denounced this talk. Beck nodded along with it and then elaborated on it.
Maybe you're just playing dumb.
Some other articles people noticed which seem to have been abused by the military coup (don't know if the translation is entirely accurate):
Article 69: "A persons liberty is inviolable and can only be restricted or suspended temporarily through process of law."
Article 71: "No person can be arrested nor kept incommunicado for more than 24 hours without being placed before a competent authority to be judged. Judicial detention during an investigation must not exceed six consecutive days from the moment that the same is ordered."
Article 78: "Freedoms of association and meeting are always guaranteed when they are not contrary to public order and good customs.
Article 79: "All persons have the right to meet with others, peacefully and without weapons, in public demonstration or transitory assembly, in relation to their common interests of any type, without necessity of notice or special permission."
Article 81: "All persons have the right to circulate freely, leave, enter, and remain in national territory. No one can be obligated to change home or residence except in special cases and with those requirements that the Law establishes."
Alpha -
You pre-suppose that the guy who was running rough-shod over the Honduran constitution every day until his removal from office would suddenly, on November 1st, develop a new-found respect for it.
On what basis do you presume that he will have this sudden change of heart? Do you have some insight into his soul denied the rest of us that you somehow just know that a guy who felt the need to hire thugs to invade a military base would suddenly stop?
If it was just "an advisory referendum" as you claim, and such a non-issue, then why did he think the exact opposite. After all, he felt the need to defy the Supreme Court. He defied Congress. He defied members of his own party. He defied the attorney general. He had the ballots printed up by Dictator-for-Life Chavez and flown in. He hired thugs to invade a military base to steal them. So what did he know that you are having such a difficulty grasping?
Are you trying to make the ridiculous claim that an "advisory referendum" was nothing more than a glorified public poll and meant nothing? Really? Is that where you want to make your stand?
C'mon, Alpha. I'm not ducking and weaving. I was trying to give you the opportunity to let the issue go rather than further embarrass yourself. But rather than climbing back off the limb, you've decided to go out further and start jumping.
Your theoretical scenario makes absolutely zero sense in light of Zelaya's own actions. Really, take a deep breath and climb down from that tree or I'm going have to call the fire department and have you rescued like a stranded kitten.
Alpha -
Now who's ducking and weaving?
"I never said Scheurer is a leader. "
That's right. And not one single commenter on this blog has ever proclaimed Rush Limbaugh leader of the Republican Party, but that never stopped a single Leftist on this blog from claiming that he was...over..and over..and over... again.
Either it's OK to claim that someone is a leader of the opposition party because you think you can score "gotcha" points or it isn't. You don't get to play this one-way game of "I'll tell you who your leaders are, but you can't tell me who mine are." Either it's a two-way street, or it's closed to traffic.
So were you wrong or weren't you? If you weren't, then you have to own Schauer. If not, then you need to apologize for your repeated "Rush Limbaugh is the leader of the Republicans" comments. One or the other. Make a choice.
Alpha -
Just because you keep calling it a "coup" doesn't make it one. You have been shown over and over again that the military had the right to arrest Zelaya under the Honduran constitution. If you can't understand the difference between a coup and a lawful use of the military, you're really not qualified to discuss the subject at hand.
[Cut and pasted from a Google translation of local Honduran news]
Yesterday, spilled over the Pacific Ocean through the streets of the "Sultana del Sur." It was just that, a sea of people dressed in white to tell the world that Honduras has won democracy and to offer their support for the new government.
More than 35 thousand southerners without distinction of creed, race and political joined the peaceful march that toured the main streets of Choluteca.
About 10 blocks from Main Street Wilians Vincent were dressed in white by the demonstrators, with the national flag in hand and white handkerchiefs were living in peace and democracy. Among the messages on placards, southerners called on the world to stop the Honduran solve problems and not to meddle in affairs of the country.
During the course of the trip were many people who came together to protest the actions of international organizations, and stressed that this country is peace and not war as we want to see some of the outside of Honduras.
The march was accompanied by compatriots of all strata of society, as representatives of the informal trade, business, workers, peasants, religious groups and persons living in rural areas.
Father Florentino Gonzales of the Catholic Church said that his participation in all that we are united and the most important thing is that we are all brothers and we will strive to overcome all want to see us in acts of war representatives of other countries.
Euphoric demonstrators on their way to the world told him that this is the first battle for the Constitution and will continue to be fought to prevent the peaceful restoration of President Hugo Chávez wants to impose.
Support for democracy
The Honduras to live in peace and democracy were the main weapon in the march, where thousands of people shouted with all his strength so that, if you can hear members of the United Nations.
Bonifacio Izaguirre, president of the Federation of Peasants of the Agro Fenagro said "I recommend 'Mel' Zelaya not return home because if you come to this country is the National Penitentiary, and that many damage you've done to the Hondurans, we have faced, "
The mayor of Choluteca Quintín Soriano one of the organizers of the march said the world should not be confused with either Cuba or Venezuela because here what we want is peace and democracy and not the government or liberal Roberto Micheleti is required by this quiet town.
Soriano asked the Organization of American States (OAS) to listen to the Hondurans to give a ruling, because the only thing that has been done is to listen to the lies of Zelaya.
Southerners ended up at the edge of the midday dance music as a point where civic act demonstrated his support for peace and democracy. The area where the march took place was guarded by the military and air by private helicopter and the armed forces to prevent riots by supporters of 'Mel' Zelaya.
Yeah...sounds just like a coup to me...People peacefully demonstrating in the street, pleading with the United Nations to prevent Hugo Chavez from imposing his Dictator-for-Life government on their country....sounds just awful. I sure am glad we're not supporting wannabe dictators against the will of the people or anything...
All in all, I smell a corrupt oligarchic power structure that threw out a troublemaker, who was supposed to be loyal to his class.
So, you support violating the law as long as you support the guy, eh?
* Jim, I mention press being suppressed because it casts doubt on the line that this was a simple law enforcement action by the AG and not a coup.
They shut down CNN who has a documented history of protecting thugs to keep "access" and they shut down a Chavez station. How will the world ever survive?
* Yes, I agree Dem Presidents also supported dictators. It was wrong and often done for the crudest motives. But GOPs went further and embraced Pinochet and his torture regime, as others (Guatemala has had a tragic story).
Do you REALLY want to compare the Right's treatment of Pinochet to FDR's butt-kissing of Joseph Stalin? Shall we go into the sheer number of people killed? FDR's first act in office was to recognize the USSR --- JUST as they were undergoing their mass slaughter of Ukrainians via starvation.
FDR and Truman didn't treat Stalin as a necessary evil. They treated him as a friend, pure and simple. History isn't exactly quiet on this issue. Truman didn't become "anti-Communist" until, ironically, the GOP routed the Dems in 1946. And he and FDR did employ an awful lot of people on the Soviet payroll.
Let alone why anyone would be angry when Glenn Beck and his guest are agreeing on Fox News that Osama bin Laden needs to attack the US.
So, Beck not shouting down Schuerer is proof that conservatives love terrorism?
Man, imagine what we can do with what Olbermann has said over the years. Or Kos, considering that Dem politicians have written for him. Heck, Obama admits to reading Sullivan and we know the depths of insanity that man dives down to.
I never said Scheurer is a leader. Glenn Beck is a favorite right wing TV blabber. This is his guest. Neither Beck nor any conservatives have denounced this talk. Beck nodded along with it and then elaborated on it.
Then the Left has called all Tea Parties meetings of racists and bigots. See, Olbermann is quite popular in Leftie circles and when Janeane Garofalo was on his show, he nodded while she said this.
And when Musto lambasted Carrie Prejean in rather vulgar terms while on the show and Keith nodded and smiled, it means the Left supported the character assassination of Carrie Prejean for having the same stand on gay marriage that Obama does (actually, her stance is MORE pro-gay marriage since she didn't liken it to incest).
I didn't hear the Left saying one word about that.
And since you can name the leaders of the Right, I'm free to name your leaders.
"You righties seem a little too smitten with the idea of changing Presidents via the military coup"
I think it is much of a stretch to call me a 'righty'. Doing so merely speaks to how far out on the left fringe you are.
I believe in the rule of law being upheld. If it falls to the military in Honduras, I don't have an issue with it. If, however, the military decided to impose a military dictatorship with some General assuming command permanently, then that would be troublesome. Naturally, that is not what happened here. A wannabe Castro or Chavez found his country ready for his attempts to rewrite the laws and constitution of the land with forged ballots counted by henchmen.
Again, Jim et al, you fail to back up that he sought to prolong his stay in office with the referendum.
How, exactly, does that work? You accept as an article of faith the (likely trumped up) charge againnst him.
To answer you question Jim, even if you duck mine; he wanted to reform the Constitution. As we've seen, there are many good reasons to do so.
But by the time the vote on the final referendum question came and was counted, he would be a lame duck.
Are you saying he would run for re-election? Got proof? Didn't think so.
Are you saying he would upstage the elected President in November to stay in office? How do you know that?
Duck and weave, man. You can't answer the question. You're just carrying water for the coup coverup.
Same-o, same-o.
Scifinity:
So, Beck not shouting down Schuerer is proof that conservatives love terrorism? .
You don't read well. Beck was nodding along with Scheuer. He was agreeing and then expanded on Scheuer's comments.
He didn't disagree, say "that's outrageous," or disavow it. He NODDED ALONG.
@AL:
From the Brookings Institution:
The real problem, however, was that by organizing a de facto referendum to test the popularity of his idea, Zelaya pursued his ambition with total disregard of his country’s constitution. The latter explicitly forbids holding referenda—let alone an unsanctioned “popular consultation”—to amend the constitution and, more specifically, to modify the presidential term.
There are also articles discussing his expressed intention to perpetuate himself in office by this method. We cannot know whether or not he would have appeared on the November ballot, but Honduran authorities, and common sense, are entitled to some deference on this issue.
His intention to run is not relevant, however, since his intent to subvert the constitution illegally, his overt actions toward that end added to findings by virtually every relevant Honduran civil authority that he was acting illegally, constituted provocation for the army to act under Art. 272 of their Constitution.
It is one thing for the international community, including the Brookings Institution, to debate whether the Army chose the appropriate action. It is quite another to impose sanctions on Honduras, whose army and interim government are acting under provisions of Honduran law.
Thanks for the Brookings link. It, however, does not provide evidence that the Constitutional reforms were to give him a second term.
Nor does it explain how that would be accomplished.
It's just another repetition of a dubious talking point.
However, he does state that the coup is illegal.
I'm sincerely interested in someone explaining the connection between the referendum and a second term. It is not plausible now.
@ AL: Your "second term" argument is a red herring.
Virtually all reports of the controversy assert that his goal was a second term. I do not believe that Zelaya has ever denied that, so you have no basis for doing so.
Indeed, he has recently promised not to seek a second term if he is allowed to return. If, as you argue, a second term was not at issue, the promise was unnecessary.
In any event, as I pointed out in an earlier comment: "His intention to run is not relevant... since his intent to subvert the constitution illegally, his overt actions toward that end added to findings by virtually every relevant Honduran civil authority that he was acting illegally, constituted provocation for the army to act under Art. 272 of their Constitution."
Ahem.
Limbaugh: So we've got hell breaking loose in Honduras. You know what we learned about Honduras? We learned the Obama administration tried to stop the coup. Now what was -- the coup was what many of you wish would happen here, without the military.
In the Christian Science Monitor July 2, 2009:
"A 'Coup' in Honduras? Nonsense" - by Ocatavio Sanchez. Okay so blow this guy off -- he is obviously just is expressing an "opinion" (and quoting the Honduran constitution).
The background he provides is worth the read.
Read the whole things as they say. A 'Coup' in Honduras? Nonsense
One little thing that jumped out at me, is that Zelaya ORDERED all government employees to participate in the "poll." Ha ha ha. Just sticking his finger up to test the winds, eh?
The response of this administration to Honduras in contrast to the response to Iran shows a deficit I would not have imagined, even not having high hopes for this presidency.
I cannot wait for 2010, and hope we can salvage what's left in 2012.
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