Althouse: "It is a shame. But you have to come to a realization around here that at this point in time, the N.R.A. gets the votes."

May 20, 2009

"It is a shame. But you have to come to a realization around here that at this point in time, the N.R.A. gets the votes."

"Either you are going to bring down the whole Senate and never do anything or you or going to swallow hard and say, ‘I will just vote my conscience on those amendments and speak out until people get a hold of their senses.’ ”

Senator Boxer said. The bill permits us to carry concealed guns in National Parks.

335 comments:

«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 335 of 335

Freder Frederson said...: Freder... don't be insulting.

There's a difference between being escorted to your car late at night and being afraid to take a walk in a National Park. One is a reasonable precaution, the other is just plain paranoia.; 5/20/09, 3:46 PM
Original Mike said...: 200+. Who'd a thunk it?; 5/20/09, 3:48 PM
Jeremy said...: John - "I don' think any woman feels the constant danger of being attacked. But any woman who is aware and walking in public certainly understands that the possibility exists."

Yes, John... understand, and I never said it was for ME to decide anything.

If you think they should all be carrying loaded guns...that is your prerogative, but in the long run I really don't think it would be in their best interests.; 5/20/09, 3:51 PM
Sofa King said...: If you think they should all be carrying loaded guns...that is your prerogative, but in the long run I really don't think it would be in their best interests.

So you support the law as passed, then? It seemed like you were saying something different.; 5/20/09, 3:52 PM
Michael McNeil said...: Well, in the Senate 60 votes are needed.

And the Dems at last count have 59, soon in a few weeks or a month to be 60.

To block the bill even now would take all the Republicans in the Senate holding together. Since at least a few of those supposed Republicans are really RINOs, such an effort at filibustering the bill would likely fail.

“Unanimously? Shucks, you couldn't get that
many to whistle ‘Yankee Doodle’ unanimously.”
Lazarus Long, aka Robert A. Heinlein; 5/20/09, 3:53 PM
Jeremy said...: Freder Frederson said..."One is a reasonable precaution, the other is just plain paranoia."

Are you kidding?

Most of the people here would like the term "paranoia" included in the Pledge of Alligiance.; 5/20/09, 3:54 PM
Jeremy said...: My bad...Allegiance; 5/20/09, 3:55 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael McNeil said..."To block the bill even now would take all the Republicans in the Senate holding together."

Well they've been pretty good at not voting with Obama so far.

Sofa King asked "So you support the law as passed, then? It seemed like you were saying something different."

Sorry, but I'm still harping on the loaded guns in the forest.; 5/20/09, 3:57 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: 200+. Who'd a thunk it?

Me, once the Jen/Jeremy show began.

There's a difference between being escorted to your car late at night and being afraid to take a walk in a National Park.

@Freder. I don't think that anyone, even us delicate lady types, are saying we are afraid wo take a walk in a National Park. What I'm saying is that there can be danger. Danger in walking to your car at night in a deserted parking garage and danger in walking alone or even in groups in a wilderness area that teems with wild animals and criminals growing illegal substances.

Only a fool doesn't take precautions against danger.

Just because I have a fire extinguisher (on my deck near the barbeque) or carry a AAA card or have a recahrgable flashlight on the wall, next to where I keep my Mossberg 500 Persuader, doesn't mean that I live in fear of fire, flat tires or home invaders. It just means that I'm prepared.

If you want to waltz merrily through life waiting for others to rescue you...fine. That's YOUR choice.; 5/20/09, 3:57 PM
Jeremy said...: Big Mike said..."Jeremy, you recite a couple liberal talking points, interlayer it with some snark, and you call that thinking? Child, you're delusional."

And you're points aren't conservative?

Ohhhhh...I see.; 5/20/09, 3:59 PM
Jeremy said...: Dust Bunny - "I have a fire extinguisher..."

Now, carrying a concealed and loaded fire extinguisher I support.

Especially the really big red ones.; 5/20/09, 4:00 PM
Synova said...: "I don' think any woman feels the constant danger of being attacked. But any woman who is aware and walking in public certainly understands that the possibility exists."

Exactly.

It's always there as a part of your reality.

Men do it too, to some extent.

But for every man who decides to pass over the cowboy/biker bar because he's dressed wrong and has an Army hair cut (or doesn't pass it over and gets the snot beat out of him and his jaw wired), a woman decides not to go to a bar at all.

You always think about how well a street is lit before you walk down it.

You always think about where you are alone and if it's wise to be alone where you are.; 5/20/09, 4:01 PM
Sofa King said...: Sorry, but I'm still harping on the loaded guns in the forest.

Why? What precisely is your objection? It gives those who feel it prudent the choice do so, and those who don't the choice not to do so. Are you against choice?; 5/20/09, 4:01 PM
Jen said...: Big Mike said:

"@Jen, I almost forgot to ask. Where did you buy an SPP-1? I thought that was Russian military issue only?

Or did you just give yourself away?"

Yup. Just gave myself away. I'm a terrible Russian spy.

It was a J-O-K-E.

You know, man eating bears. . .sharks. . .oh never mind.; 5/20/09, 4:02 PM
Jeremy said...: "...a fool and their precautions are soon parted."

Old Criminal Axiom.; 5/20/09, 4:02 PM
Jeremy said...: Jen - "You know, man eating bears. . .sharks. . .oh never mind."

Again...what about the woman eating bears?

Why no complaints?; 5/20/09, 4:03 PM
hombre said...: How exactly were the Republicans supposed to stop it in today's Democratic-dominated Congress?Give me a break, Michael! How about a filibuster? Beyond that, with the exception of slowing Porkulus I for one vote in the House, have the Repubs shown anything besides the white flag since they became the minority?; 5/20/09, 4:03 PM
Jeremy said...: Sofa King in response to my comment: ("Sorry, but I'm still harping on the loaded guns in the forest.") "Why? What precisely is your objection?"

Well, for one, what if a bear takes the gun away, shoots you, then goes on a wild forest-wide "manhunt" or even a "womanhunt?"

Then what?

See?; 5/20/09, 4:05 PM
Michael McNeil said...: Myself, I wish that women in the mass would get in the habit of carrying a concealed handgun that they'd learned how to properly use. Not only would it do far more in dispelling the enervating fear that women have described earlier in this thread than any number of candlelight “take back the night” vigils, but it would also go a long ways in putting the fear of God (or Woman) into the mentality of any number of male thugs, preventing lots of attacks on women in the first place.; 5/20/09, 4:06 PM
Sofa King said...: So you're just trolling then. Good luck with that.; 5/20/09, 4:06 PM
Synova said...: "If you think they should all be carrying loaded guns...Where did "all" come from? Has anyone said anything remotely like "all women should carry guns?"

(And I'm not going to say "loaded" every dang time... it's moronic. What possible use is an "unloaded" weapon?)

"that is your prerogative, but in the long run I really don't think it would be in their best interests."

Glad you're looking out for the well-being of the women-folk, but how is carrying a weapon not in my best interest in the long run?; 5/20/09, 4:09 PM
Jeremy said...: Okay, I just got an email from both Yogi and Teddy...and strangely enough; Barely Legal...and they say that if they see anybody packing a loaded weapon...and believe me, they can be pretty rough during the frisking...they're eat one of your kids.

The fat one.; 5/20/09, 4:10 PM
Jeremy said...: Sofa...you're late.; 5/20/09, 4:11 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jen, actually if you really were a spy you wouldn't call attention to yourself, so yes I got the joke.

Still, it's ver-r-r-r-y strange that you even knew about the SPP-1. I had to go look it up myself.

Or are you one of those daredevils who go free diving with sharks while the water is being chummed? (I read about it. Hope once we get universal healthcare that my taxes don't go to patch up a person who does that for fun and games.); 5/20/09, 4:17 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jeremy, I'm actually happy to be labeled a conservative. I used to a liberal, but then I grew up. Or, more precisely, liberalism changed.; 5/20/09, 4:19 PM
Shanna said...: Whatever the stats on bear attacks, they would probably be much higher if people who routinely entered bear country weren’t smart enough to bring some sort of protection.

I think that some people are just paranoid about other people having a gun and that is their own issue with guns that they need to get over and let the rest of us live our lives as we choose.; 5/20/09, 4:19 PM
Jeremy said...: Shanna said..."I think that some people are just paranoid about other people having a gun and that is their own issue with guns that they need to get over and let the rest of us live our lives as we choose."

Gee, ya think so?

Nationwide for 2005, there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S.

And about half were people killing themselves.; 5/20/09, 4:29 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Nationwide for 2005, there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S.

And about half were people killing themselves.

Their choice.; 5/20/09, 4:30 PM
Synova said...: I wonder if a man has ever been told how to *walk* in order not to give the impression of vulnerability.

I'm convinced that just about any woman here could tic off the important points of how to walk across a parking lot.; 5/20/09, 4:31 PM
Jeremy said...: Big Mike said..."Jeremy, I'm actually happy to be labeled a conservative."

That's nice.; 5/20/09, 4:31 PM
Jeremy said...: Synova said..."I wonder if a man has ever been told how to *walk* in order not to give the impression of vulnerability."

Strangely enough, yes, there is very specific way in which a man should carry himself when he feels threatened or is suspicious of his surroundings.

I spent years working in a business where were were taught to never let someone we felt posed a threat to get to close (and I don't mean in a touchy-feely way) and to always keep our hands in full few so they wouldn't think we were holding a weapon or ourselves posing a threat.

Glad you mentioned it.; 5/20/09, 4:36 PM
Jeremy said...: Dust Bunny Queen said..."Their choice."

Wow...deep.

Is there a point?; 5/20/09, 4:37 PM
Jen said...: Jeremy:

Ok. Woman eating sharks / bears too!

Can I get back in the car now?

Synovia: Unfortunately, yes, I know exactly what you are talking about. Walking, talking, take care not to give the wrong impression. . .

this is exactly why I prefer to march around in the woods alone, well, not alone. . .with bears who want to eat me apparently.

And Jeremy, I think Synovia was saying that women take care because they don't want to be attacked. Men take care because they don't want to be accused.

(sigh)

I guess I'm getting out of the car again.; 5/20/09, 4:39 PM
Original Mike said...: Nationwide for 2005, there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S.

And about half were people killing themselves..

Wow, I learned something from Jeremy! Those gun death stats you always see are inflated by a factor of 2.; 5/20/09, 4:39 PM
Jeremy said...: Original Mike said..."Wow, I learned something from Jeremy! Those gun death stats you always see are inflated by a factor of 2."

One more reason to pay closer attention to what I have to say.

You keep this up and Jen and I might let you...oh, never mind.; 5/20/09, 4:43 PM
Original Mike said...: I don't know. The information density is pretty low. Not really worth the effort.; 5/20/09, 4:45 PM
TMink said...: "I feel proud to be associated with the few who apparently think for themselves."

You treat people who disagree with you with complete disdain and disrespect. You are an asshole.

It is how I tell you and Jen apart. She is a liberal.

There is a difference.

Sometimes.

Trey; 5/20/09, 4:46 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Is there a point?

Not really. Other than people can chose to kill themselves anyway that they want. Should we tear down the Golden Gate Bridge?

Did you have a point?; 5/20/09, 4:49 PM
Michael McNeil said...: I think Synovia was saying that women take care because they don't want to be attacked. Men take care because they don't want to be accused.

While men oftentimes must be careful not to be suspected or accused of shadowing or endangering women, you're quite wrong to imagine that men aren't in general worried about other men. Many more men are killed every year by other men than women are murdered by men.; 5/20/09, 4:49 PM
Jeremy said...: Jen - "And Jeremy, I think Synovia was saying that women take care because they don't want to be attacked. Men take care because they don't want to be accused."

Oh, I got it, and I agree, it's something that women, in certain situations should be aware of. And if anyone does appear to trouble they should scream their heads off.

I had a situation a few years ago where, as it turns out, I thwarted an attempted stick-up or worse of myself.

As I walked to my car on a parking lot in Los Angeles, I happened to notice two men sitting in a nearby car. It didn't register until, as I was about to open my car, a young woman approached from another direction, and tried to engage me in conversation.

For whatever reason I put the two together and turned to find the two men out of their car and heading toward me.

I assume she was the diversion, the men the ones who were going to do whatever.

I literally pushed her away, got into my car and drove right over to the men's car, wrote down the license plate number and called it in.

The police called me the next day and said they were all arrested at another location, attempting to force someone to take money out of their bank via ATM.

It made the hair on the back of my neck stand up just hearing it.

*Now, had I been packing I could have shot and killed all three, but being a liberal, I felt they had another chance at life.; 5/20/09, 4:53 PM
Michael McNeil said...: Now, had I been packing I could have shot and killed all three, but being a liberal, I felt they had another chance at life.

If you'd been packing, they — not you — would more than likely have run away. It's quite wrong to imagine that the only defensive utility of a firearm is to shoot it with intent to kill.; 5/20/09, 4:56 PM
Jeremy said...: Dust Bunny Queen said..."Not really. Other than people can chose to kill themselves anyway that they want. Should we tear down the Golden Gate Bridge?"

Well, not, but I bet there are one hell of a lot more people who wouldn't have killed themselves, except for the fact that they had ready access to a loaded weapon and could handle the deal right then and there...versus those who have access to the Golden Gate Bridge.

Let me ask you this: If everybody who commits suicide had to get into their car or walk to a nearby bridge, opposed to pulling out a loaded weapon...do you think it just might make a difference?

Might spare their immediate families, their children, friends the kind of sorrow associted with such an act?

Well...?; 5/20/09, 4:57 PM
Big Mike said...: Glad you're happy, Jeremy. But all you did was leave someone else to face injury or death.

You can sugar-coat it all you want, but you had a chance to prevent a crime and chose the side of the criminals. Sort of a reverse Samaritan effect, I guess.; 5/20/09, 5:00 PM
Jen said...: MM:

I stand corrected in the hallway with my firearm.

You are absolutely right. Men do worry about other men. But I think the point is lost here.

Women tend to be hyper-aware of their surroundings because of the high incidence of attack and rape. What was the stat? 1 in 4 women have been or will be assaulted?

Walk to the car with your keys out.

Or, just spend more time in a state park!; 5/20/09, 5:00 PM
Jen said...: Jeremy:

Would you actually. . . let me. . .DRIVE the Mercedes?!; 5/20/09, 5:01 PM
Original Mike said...: Being the good liberal that you are, why didn't you just take out your wallet and hand them 65% of what you had on the spot. You know, cut out the middle man.; 5/20/09, 5:02 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: And if anyone does appear to trouble they should scream their heads off.

Wow. That's GREAT advice. Too bad it doesn't work

LINK LINK LINK Yep. Real good advice, you stupid fuck.; 5/20/09, 5:02 PM
Jen said...: There is a caveat to that statistic though isn't there? And I'm asking because I don't know.

Aren't most of these women assaulted by someone that they know??

Doesn't really leave a lot of time to break out the gun if you are attacked by your neighbor.; 5/20/09, 5:03 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Damn blogger and the line break issue. Those are 3 separate links.; 5/20/09, 5:03 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael McNeil said..."If you'd been packing, they — not you — would more than likely have run away."

My comment was obviously facetious, but yours is based on me being able to actually pull the gun out in time to scare them off...and of course, they themselves not also having weapons.

Why not provide links to all of the robberies individual citizens thwart because they were able to "scare people" off with guns.

Methinks not many.; 5/20/09, 5:03 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jeremy, if suicidal people didn't have a gun they'd use overdoses of pills or hang themselves or lock themselves in a car in an enclosed space with the engine running. Or go into a biker bar and yell out that Harley riders are sissies.

I don't see why I should give up my best tool for defending myself and my family because 15,000 people want to kill themselves. Makes no sense to me at all.; 5/20/09, 5:05 PM
Jen said...: "Real good advice, you stupid fuck."

Was "stupid fuck" on the drinking list too? I'm going to need a hard copy for reference.; 5/20/09, 5:06 PM
Big Mike said...: Ah, Jen, I think DBQ is getting offended by you. There is a finite, nonzero likelihood that that is what she was trying to convey with the words "stupid fuck."

You never did answer my question.; 5/20/09, 5:09 PM
Jeremy said...: Dust Bunny Queen said..."And if anyone does appear to trouble they should scream their heads off. Wow. That's GREAT advice. Too bad it doesn't work..."

Based on what?

Your opinion?

How about this:

Important Safety Tips Every Woman Should Know:

If attacked, scream and run. If you become the victim of an attack, don't fight back. Yell "Fire!" instead of "help" as this is usually better at attracting attention. Run as fast as you can away from the assailant, and seek help in a public place.

There are ten tips - Articlebase.com

Take the time to educate yourself before calling someone a stupid fuck.; 5/20/09, 5:12 PM
Jen said...: Ok BM, I'm not going back to look, so give me the question in bold again and I'll answer it honestly.

It was just that there were more interesting things going on.

She didn't call me a stupid fuck. I think she leveled that winner at Jeremy. But since we are the same person, I guess it was leveled at me too.; 5/20/09, 5:13 PM
Jeremy said...: The reason police suggest women carry whistles and other devices that makes lots of noise is because they just think it's cute.

Just as Dust Bunny...it really has nothing to do with calling attention to an attack.; 5/20/09, 5:14 PM
Michael McNeil said...: My comment was obviously facetious, but yours is based on me being able to actually pull the gun out in time to scare them off…

You had time to start and drive your car over to their car, then write down their license number, and then drive off. Even the slowest draw in the world would've had time to get their gun out in that interval.

and of course, they themselves not also having weapons.

Muggers typically want an easy mark, not a lion who might well kill them in a shootout.

Why not provide links to all of the robberies individual citizens thwart because they were able to “scare people” off with guns.

Such statistics, best I can tell, do not exist, and would be grossly inaccurate even if they did. Repeat after me: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.; 5/20/09, 5:15 PM
Joe said...: Just for the sake of some accuracy, her is are lists of fatal bear and mountain lion attacks (apparently compiled by people with too much time on their hands):

Bear Fatal Attacks by Decade Mountain Lion Fatal Attacks by Decade* * *

Apparently, many of you also ignore the number one reason to carry weapons in parks: to kill hippies.; 5/20/09, 5:15 PM
Cedarford said...: Having done a few visits to Alaska, hiking to remote Glaciers, doing fishing, even watching Kodiaks on their silver salmon feed almost all in National Parks or Native American Corporation lands....the advice was "always pack a good gun" and "never use it unless you are ready to be arrested and fined, meaning you HAD to use it."

A few NA's we hired as guides on a remote tour of a national park carried M-1s (30'06 10 shot semi-auto)...and I "rented" a 44 mag from one in going through a heavy brush area to a rarely visited glacier that occasionally disgorges some nice gold nuggets at the base.

The NA's also carry some fireworks. The fireworks are tried to scare the animal away (Moose are the most feared down by Denali). Roman candles, M-80s (illegal), and whistling multiple salutes.

A friend on one of the Alaskan trips later had occasion to try the fireworks idea (he had a .270 semi-auto as well) when a pack of coyotes came up to his family's campsite in Texas. The pack was attracted by food, scent of the family dog...but sat on the edge of the camp with a "fuck you attitude" at the initial yelling, banging of pots.

Then he lit off a roman candle, firing the exploding balls at them. Coyote pandemonium! They bolted so fast that a couple went ten feet in the air over a ravine and tumbled to the bottom.

Also, another friend doing some camping and rock hounding in Colorado, (never in Alaska but who thought packing was a good idea) had to pull his 9mm on some really creepy scary meth heads that came into their camp and were menacing the two families there for "beer money". Who he held and searched to ensure they were not armed. Then they vanished as fast as the abovesaid coyotes did.

(And for "critter menaces" - add in that there is an explosion of aggressive feral pigs down South that have torn up a few people and lots of unlucky dogs..)

My advice is to pack if you are confident you will display it, even use it if need be - but only display and/or use as the absolute last resort.; 5/20/09, 5:16 PM
Big Mike said...: @DBQ, I just looked up the 500 Persuader on the company web site. Mossbergs sure have changed since the 670.

Elsewhere on the web I've seen suggestions that a 20 ga. double-barrel would be light enough for my wife (petite) but have enough stopping power for intruders. Do you have any thoughts on this?; 5/20/09, 5:18 PM
Joe said...: Reading my links above, it appears that staying out of Canada is a pretty good defense against bear attacks.; 5/20/09, 5:20 PM
Jeremy said...: Big Mike said..."Jeremy, if suicidal people didn't have a gun they'd use overdoses of pills or hang themselves or lock themselves in a car in an enclosed space with the engine running."

True, but every statistic I've ever encountered says the loaded gun is the best method of making damn sure it's over and done.
All kinds of people take all kinds of drugs and don't die. Unless it's the type of drug that shuts down your system...you'll be back.

Women almost always use pills, and many studies have shown that that is because they are sometimes not quite as convinced of what they should do, there is a possibility of survival, and many just don't have guns.

And how often do you read about people hanging themselves or even carbon monoxide versus a bullet in the head?; 5/20/09, 5:22 PM
Michael McNeil said...: Reading my links above, it appears that staying out of Canada is a pretty good defense against bear attacks.

Famous last words if you're hiking in Glacier Park in Montana — one of the most incredibly scenic places on Earth. Last I heard, it's not in Canada.; 5/20/09, 5:24 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jen, here it is again. The context had to do with your belief that a handgun would not be of much use to defend yourself from two-legged predators (you phrased it something along the lines of not non-human).

My question was why on earth do you think that a decision you've made for yourself ought necessarily to apply to me or, for that matter, to my wife?; 5/20/09, 5:24 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Jen,

You are, indeed, the one who wrote these words: "And a gun is not going to help me much in that situation."

Jeremy,

Just for the hell of answering... every single time I go to a state park here in WA. Every single time I go camping in the National Forest here, too.

Bob, alas but Althouse lives in the benighted state of WI, one of the few that has no provision for concealed carry--not even for the priveleged few. So she's going to have to open carry. But no worry, I'm sure Meade can help her pick out a decent bunch of holsters to go with her outfits...; 5/20/09, 5:25 PM
traditionalguy said...: A gun with you is most analagous to wearing a seatbelt when driving since you hardly ever need it, but when you do need it suddenly it has to be there. So as you habitually buckle-up, also habitually check for the firearm. Just remember the airport prohibitions.; 5/20/09, 5:25 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jeremy, sadly it is possible for people to survive shooting themselves in the head.

The local paper hardly ever publishes suicides.; 5/20/09, 5:26 PM
Jeremy said...: Big Mike said..."Elsewhere on the web I've seen suggestions that a 20 ga. double-barrel would be light enough for my wife (petite) but have enough stopping power for intruders. Do you have any thoughts on this?"

You know we've almost reached the end of the line when Big Mike is asking for shotgun suggestions from the Dust Bunny.; 5/20/09, 5:27 PM
Jeremy said...: Big Mike said..."Jeremy, sadly it is possible for people to survive shooting themselves in the head."

Yes it is.

Do they get some kind of bullet rebate?; 5/20/09, 5:28 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Was "stupid fuck" on the drinking list too?

Actually. Stupid fuck was addressed to Jeremy. If you want to add stupid twat to your drinking list. Feel free. And if I say them both enough maybe you will both get liver cancer and die. Ha ha ha... that's a J.O.K.E. Just like Wanda Sykes. Tee hee. Get it? What? No sense of humour I suppose.

@Big Mike: I'm 5'6" 147lbs and don't have too much problem with the Mossberg for kick back/kick up. It isn't as easy as a regular 12 gauge shotgun that you rest against your shoulder, though but a lot more maneuverable in a home or cramped environment. A 20 gauge would probably deter a home invader. Aim for the head and face first and then the groin.; 5/20/09, 5:28 PM
Jeremy said...: Kirk Parker said..."Jeremy, Just for the hell of answering... every single time I go to a state park here in WA. Every single time I go camping in the National Forest here, too."

That's nice to know, Kirk.

Could you post your schedule for those of us who might be there at the same time? (Especially those with lots of body hair.); 5/20/09, 5:30 PM
Joe said...: Considering that the last published fatal bear attack in Glacier Park was in 1998, staying out of Canada is still a pretty good strategy (which is different from a perfect strategy, which would involve living in Hawaii where there are no bears--you instead die of a myriad of other causes.); 5/20/09, 5:30 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jen, for what it's worth, I asked the same question of Camille Paglia when she was discussing firearms and expressed her fear of semi-automatics.

FWIW, in my opinion a revolver is the more dangerous. If a semi-automatic jams or has a bullet not fire, then it takes time to clear. If a revolver doesn't fire you just squeeze the trigger again.; 5/20/09, 5:35 PM
Big Mike said...: @DBQ, egg all over my face. The 670 was a Winchester rifle. I have no idea what my uncle's Mossberg pump was.

In my defense, my youth was a long time ago.; 5/20/09, 5:36 PM
Jeremy said...: Jen - I want you to write down these helpful hints from the Dust Bunny...just in case:

1. The Mossberg isn't as easy as a regular 12 gauge shotgun that you rest against your shoulder. (Who knew?)

2. It is a lot more maneuverable, especially in a cramped environment.(A trailer or bomb shelter perhaps?)

3. A 20 gauge would probably deter a home invader. (Unless of course, they're the fucking Terminator.)

4. And always aim for the head and face first and then the groin. (Unless it's your husband or special partner, then the other way around.); 5/20/09, 5:37 PM
Big Mike said...: @DBQ, my uncle hunted; my Dad not. Both have been gone for quite a while.; 5/20/09, 5:37 PM
Jeremy said...: Joe said..."Considering that the last published fatal bear attack in Glacier Park was in 1998, staying out of Canada is still a pretty good strategy..."

And what's really bizarre; the bear was from Chicago.; 5/20/09, 5:38 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Jeremy,

"Why not provide links to all of the robberies individual citizens thwart because they were able to 'scare people' off with guns.

Methinks not many."

Your thinking is as wrong as your reading ability is bad. I've already posted one such place earlier in this thread.; 5/20/09, 5:40 PM
Big Mike said...: ... and thanks for the advice.

You're slightly taller than my wife. She works out regularly in the gym but her upper body strength isn't all that great.; 5/20/09, 5:41 PM
Kirk Parker said...: C4, sorry but the Garand only holds 8 rounds. What other inaccuracies did you slip in that I don't know enough to call you on?; 5/20/09, 5:41 PM
Jeremy said...: Kirk - Wonderful.

And that's it?; 5/20/09, 5:42 PM
hombre said...: Hey Professor: I just collapsed these comments to see who's running up all the posts. I think the trolls are trying to shut you down.; 5/20/09, 5:47 PM
Bill Kilgore said...: I don't care if you're packing a machine gun...you get lost in the forest, especially at night (when they turn ALL the lights out...and it gets REALLY cold)...and it won't do you a bit of good.There's been a lot of foolishness in this thread but I'm surprised none of the self-identified explorers have pointed out this gem. One of the reasons to take a gun on a hike into the bush is that if you are lost or unable to proceed, you can fire 3 rounds in quick order as a distress call. As someone who used to camp with two people- neither of whom could carry me any great distance were I, or we, injured- this is a pretty big deal.

Most importantly, if you're out and about you should know this in case you hear someone else put out the call. Shocking that Ann's Lewis & Clark contingent didn't mention it.; 5/20/09, 5:49 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Jen - I want you to write down these helpful hints from the Dust Bunny...just in case:

1. The Mossberg isn't as easy as a regular 12 gauge shotgun that you rest against your shoulder. (Who knew?)

2. It is a lot more maneuverable, especially in a cramped environment.(A trailer or bomb shelter perhaps?)

3. A 20 gauge would probably deter a home invader. (Unless of course, they're the fucking Terminator.)

4. And always aim for the head and face first and then the groin. (Unless it's your husband or special partner, then the other way around.)

Yes. A whole lot more useful than scream like a ninny and flap your hands in the air, hope to Hell some one hears, hope to Hell some one cares enough to come to your aid.

Thank you.

Oh and @BigMike. Be sure to remove the plug in the shotgun so you can have more capacity in the magazine. With one in the chamber (which I do NOT recommend) the gun will hold 6 shells.; 5/20/09, 5:52 PM
Jeremy said...: elHombre said - I was wondering when you were going to start sucking up and whining.

What took so long?; 5/20/09, 5:54 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jen and Jeremy.

(1) The Mossberg 500 is stockless, hence DBQ's comment.

(2) The problem with using a long arm -- rifle or hunting shotgun -- indoors is that the barrel can get hung up on door frames or the side wall of a hallway may cost you a fraction of a second bringing it to bear.

(3) The Terminator is fiction. You keep getting that confused with reality.

(4) Some women have been advised to aim for the groin of a male attacker, on the reasonable notion that men will be frightened of threats to their genitalia. DBQ and others advise against. Chest is a good target because it's hard to miss and even if your shot goes high or low you'll hit the face or the stomach/intestines/kidney area. DBQ suggests the face instead, because looking down the barrel of a shotgun you think you're looking at the mouth of a cannon it's so huge. Even a .410. I learned that while some cousins and I were fooling around back when I was a kid. For a change the gun really was unloaded.

See, all perfectly logical.; 5/20/09, 5:54 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Cute, Jeremy. Did I mention that I'm in WA state? We have the just about the oldest concealed-carry law in the nation, have a very high rate of concealed-carry license issuance, it's perfectly legal to carry concealed in state parks (with a license) or openly (with or without a license), open carry is completely legal everywhere it's legal to have a gun in the first place, and--in general--everywhere you go, from the hippie shops of Port Townshend to the wilderness areas to the streets of downtown Seattle on a workday, crowded with men and women in power suits, you are surrounded by far more private citizens carrying guns than you would guess.

If that creeps you out, feel free to stay away.; 5/20/09, 5:55 PM
Big Mike said...: @Bill K, once you wrote it I remembered that from Boy Scouts. But I wonder if anyone besides you or I would think of that these days. (And maybe not even I.); 5/20/09, 5:57 PM
Jeremy said...: Dust Bunny Queen said..."Yes. A whole lot more useful than scream like a ninny and flap your hands in the air, hope to Hell some one hears, hope to Hell some one cares enough to come to your aid."

So when you're out shopping, you generally carry a Mossberg?

That's creepy.; 5/20/09, 5:57 PM
Big Mike said...: @DBQ, I don't currently own a shotgun, but I stumbled across a web site where somebody was writing about his experiences converting an old Remington pump into a home defense weapon. I'm thinking more along the lines of a used 20 ga. autoloader or double-barrel because, as I said, I question my wife's upper body strength. Barrel(s) shortened to 20" it shouldn't be a problem in the house.; 5/20/09, 6:00 PM
Original Mike said...: The NA's also carry some fireworks.For years when I was in grizzly country I carried a road flare. No idea how successful it would have been (it was suggested to me by the mountaineering club in Jasper), but it's easy to light and gives me something to try: possibly scare him away at a distance, stick it in his eye at the end. And I wasn't going to carry a gun. Just too effing heavy.; 5/20/09, 6:09 PM
Jeremy said...: Kirk - "If that creeps you out, feel free to stay away."

It does kind of creep me out, but I love Seattle so I guess I just have to be careful about who I offend. I also could care less if people own guns, I just think carrying them around on a regular basis is overkill. (No pun intended.)

I think most people who feel they have to carry loaded weapons around on their person are basically gun lovers and aren't really basing their being armed in the actual safety they provide.

I've never read a study that supports their effectiveness in stopping an abundance of crimes against individuals...here and there, but not many.

One hell of a lot more people accidentally shoot themselves or others than someone robbing them.

You provided one instance at a liquor store, but I bet there are many more examples relating to my point of view than yours.

A minimum of around 35,000 people die from gun injuries in the United States.

Over 105,000 are injured and hospitalized from guns. (34% of those injuries are with victims 17 years old and younger.); 5/20/09, 6:12 PM
Jeremy said...: Big Mike said..."You keep getting that confused with reality."

Speaking of reality, provide the evidence that having a gun in the house stops more robberies than not.

As we all know, the burglar, etc. doesn't know whether you have a gun or not, and you certainly don't know if they do.; 5/20/09, 6:19 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Jeremy,

"You provided one instance at a liquor store"

No, I provided a link to the main page of a volunteer site that posts armed self-defense stories from all over the US--thousands and thousands of them, and those are just the stories that manage to get reported in some local media, and then noticed by someone who knows about that blog and sends them a pointer.

In addition, have you ever heard of the National Crime Victimization Survey?; 5/20/09, 6:54 PM
hombre said...: Jeremy, et al, wrote: "I was wondering [blah, blah.]

I'm pleased that you have been thinking of me, odious troll[s], but piss off anyway.; 5/20/09, 6:58 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Jeremy said *Now, had I been packing I could have shot and killed all three, but being a liberal, I felt they had another chance at life.
..

Which makes you a moron since it means its another chance for them to victimize another person.

Congratulations.; 5/20/09, 7:10 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Speaking of reality, provide the evidence that having a gun in the house stops more robberies than not..

Well as I pointed out earlier. Having a gun stopped one in my house and that's all I need for my justification.; 5/20/09, 7:21 PM
Cedarford said...: Kirk Parker said...
C4, sorry but the Garand only holds 8 rounds. What other inaccuracies did you slip in that I don't know enough to call you on?I've never shot a M-1.
Nice nitpick, though.
=======================
Original Mike said...
The NA's also carry some fireworks.For years when I was in grizzly country I carried a road flare. No idea how successful it would have been (it was suggested to me by the mountaineering club in Jasper), but it's easy to light and gives me something to try: possibly scare him away at a distance, stick it in his eye at the end. And I wasn't going to carry a gun. Just too effing heavy.

A rifle can be cumbersome. A .44 Mag doesn't weigh that much. I have carried road flares, too. But mainly for firestarting and signalling. Don't carry them anymore. A cell phone works better for signalling in most cases. And I now know where to get the dry tinder in even the wettest places.

The fireworks seem to work as premiere moose and bear chasers away mainly on sudden motion, bright flashes and loud reports. NA's say that if they kill a bear or moose in self-defense, outside hunting season, it can be a nightmare of hassle, investigations and paperwork (if they report it). But they generally get to keep what they shoot.

And in certain places of the country, like California, it may be a real bad thing to light off a roman candle to scare off a mountain lion if the result is a 5,000 acre fire and 118 lost residential homes. Good luck to you and your lawyer explaining that away....; 5/20/09, 7:59 PM
JAL said...: The Southeast (NC, GA, FL) had a serial killer who took out at least 4 hikers in three parks in late 2007-2008. It is possible there are more victims.

They caught the guy, partly becasue he couldn't bear to kill the girl hiker's dog. Mind you that's after he killed 3 people.

The hikers were not armed.; 5/20/09, 8:38 PM
Original Mike said...: A .44 Mag doesn't weigh that much..

Depends what you're doing, of course. When you're hiking 100+ miles and carrying all the food you'll need for a couple of weeks, you get very jealous of every oz.; 5/20/09, 9:22 PM
Synova said...: Big Mike: I'm very small. Five feet only. I don't consider the weight of a shotgun an issue. I think it's the way it's held against the shoulder. Either that or I've never fired enough rounds in succession to get tired out. I have had trouble with pistols at a firing range where I went from getting the first several shots nicely in the center of the target to shooting the dirt three quarters of the way down the range before we were done.

The weight of a shot-gun or rifle is held closer to the body.

What is more likely to be an issue for a short person is the length of the stock. I never noticed it as a problem with shot-guns or .22's, but an M-16 is near impossible for me to handle comfortably.; 5/20/09, 10:50 PM
Big Mike said...: @Synova, thanks for the insight.; 5/20/09, 11:02 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: "People have been citing stats on here about bears in the lower 48. Why would you leave out Alaska? Don't Alaskans matter? Shouldn't they be able to defend themselves? The guy I mentioned who killed the Grizzly lived in Alaska at the time."

I think maybe because of the gun culture up there. Friends in Fairbanks claim that they never lock their doors, nor do anyone else they know there, because every house has an armory. Probably exaggerated, but still, there is some truth to it.

Back before they were married, the wife, had a summer job gold panning up rivers for a mining company. She would spend most of a week at a time alone in the wilds of Alaska. Her husband to be insisted on her carrying a large caliber pistol of his, since a long gun was not really practical. And, a couple of times, she did draw it, JIC. Luckily, she didn't need it.

But contrary to down here, you can run into bears almost anywhere in Alaska. For example, one night we were driving to a B&B right inside the Wrangell St. Elias Nat. Park right after dark. We went around a curve, and there was a sow with two cubs ambling down the road ahead of us. We followed them for maybe 1/4 mile, until they headed off into the brush. We weren't worried whether our Bear Mace would work, since we were in the car, and the bears weren't that big.; 5/20/09, 11:13 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: "NA's say that if they kill a bear or moose in self-defense, outside hunting season, it can be a nightmare of hassle, investigations and paperwork (if they report it). But they generally get to keep what they shoot."

Probably not as bad as down here in the lower 48. Back a couple of decades, a co-worker told of hunting down near Durango (CO) with a double barreled shot gun. Things were going fine, until he was attacked by a (black) bear. He ran for a short bit, but the bear was catching up, so he turned around and let the bear have both barrels. He dropped the (now empty) gun, and ran to his truck, where he locked himself. An hour or so later, he went back up to see what had happened, and found the bear dead.

That was when his problems really started. Dutifully, he reported the killing fo the bear to the Colo. Dept. of Wildlife, and they made his live hell for the next six months. It was out of season, he didn't have a license for bears, and was using the wrong type of gun. They finally let him off, figuring that no one in their right mind hunts bear with a shotgun, and that he turned himself in immediately.

This same guy managed to acquire a Thompson submachine gun and a BAR from parts when they were cutting up the guns to destroy them while he was in the Marines. He finally sold them, because it was such a hassle to own them. He would get them out of the bonded vault he stored them in a couple of times a year to shoot them for the local police, at a time long before automatic weapons were common for them.; 5/20/09, 11:27 PM
former law student said...: I'm thinking more along the lines of a used 20 ga. autoloader or double-barrel because, as I said, I question my wife's upper body strength. Barrel(s) shortened to 20" it shouldn't be a problem in the house.

Why shorten a good barrel? 20 inch barrels for Remington 20 ga. shotguns are available from Cabela's.; 5/20/09, 11:27 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Finally, onto the subject of the difference between men and women when it comes to danger.

I think that a lot of the difference in the way that the two sexes act in the area of danger, is that males, on average, have a lot higher threshold for danger. Even after excluding drug and gang violence, males experience several times the frequency of violent attacks of all types, excluding rape, but all the way up to murder (and also including attacks from wild animals).

Even now, in my later 50s, I still am more adventuresome than many, if not most, young women in their late teens and twenties, esp. in where I am willing to go. Sure, there have been bars that I have not gone in, or turned around, or walked right out of, or walked out of after a suggestion has been made to me that I don't belong (though for a male, that is a bit harder). And, I still drive different routes, just to see what I can see.

Maybe it is part of the different programming that males and females get in this country. But I suspect that it is more fundamental than that. Males have had to be adventurous traditionally, to get ahead, and to acquire a good mate. Females have typically been more valuable from a breeding point of view, and can sit back and wait for the males to come home with their prizes.

I think that you see this sort of behavior in our nearest relatives, the chimps, where the males roam much further than the females do.

I should also note that typical male navigation (spatially) is more useful for longer range reconnaissance than is typical female navigation (using landmarks). (I used "typical", because some women are as good at spatial navigation as guys are - my mother was quite good at it, which may tie into her degree in mathematics).; 5/20/09, 11:44 PM
Freder Frederson said...: If you are really concerned about your safety in the wilderness enough to carry around a couple pounds of excess metal, then your best bet is probably to carry a coil of thick copper wire so you can rig a makeshift lightning rod. I bet more people are killed or seriously injured by lightning in the wilderness by anything you could ever hope to shoot (non-human or human); 5/20/09, 11:47 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: I am pretty sure that you can legally go down to an 18 inch barrel (26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(1) and (2)). I bought my 12 gauge for home defense with that short of a barrel, and then got a long barrel so it would useful outdoors too. I bought another one with about that short of a barrel, but ended up loaning it to my girlfriend, whose tweaker son-in-law ended up selling it for drugs. Only shot that one a couple of times before it was stolen, but it looked mean, which was the point - black on black pump.; 5/20/09, 11:54 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: So the advice to women reads thus:

(1) Don't worry your pretty, little head about it, you silly thing.
(2) Don't go nowheres you don't belong, darlin'.

And the kicker:

(3) If you are attacked, just lie there and take it like a good girl. Don't fight er nothin'. Good girls live to see another day.

Nice.

I have a better idea. How about we women start packing heat so we don't have to listen to that kind of stupid advice?; 5/21/09, 12:02 AM
Beau said...: Freder and Jeremy... I can imagine a lot of women reading this drivel, who are now enlightened and realize that they are not in danger after all.Spend your life expecting to be a victim and you'll surely become one. Being afraid to walk beyond half a mile in the woods is freaking pathetic.; 5/21/09, 12:59 AM
Eric said...: DTL: Well I guarantee my IQ is at least 30 points higher than yours twink - so that makes you a fucking retard. No surprise.

Heh heh. You can take that guarantee to the bank.; 5/21/09, 1:12 AM
hoyden said...: I took lethal force training from the Lethal Force Institute (http://www.ayoob.com/) after getting a concealed carry permit. The training went well beyond shooting and legal issues.

I learned how to interact with my environment. When walking in public I try to stay aware of the people around me, even those behind. I walk towards the street side of the sidewalk so I can scan recessed alleys and doorways at a distance. This also puts more distance between you and a possible mugger. I make eye contact more often. These are some of the techniques I can practice regardless of whether I'm packing.

Another good website is nononsenseselfdefense.com for learning about criminal thinking, the ways crime can manifest, and how to respond.

I feel more aware and engaged in my life when I practice these techniques.; 5/21/09, 6:51 AM
hoyden said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/21/09, 6:52 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Spend your life expecting to be a victim and you'll surely become one. Being afraid to walk beyond half a mile in the woods is freaking pathetic..

Evidently you and others seem to think this strawman actually gives your position any credibility. There is a large difference between being afraid and being prepared. When I drive to work every day I don't cower in fear that I'm going to get in a wreck but I still carry insurance. I don't worry every day that I'm going to get [insert disease here] but I still carry health insurance. I also have a fire extingusher in the house, a spare tire and flares in the car trunk and other items that I never actually think I will have to use but its nice to know I have them available.

I know that's hard for most lefties to wrap their grey matter around but that's pretty much the rationale gun owners have.; 5/21/09, 6:54 AM
hdhouse said...: There seems to be only 2 choices here. No guns or all guns.

Why would I feel safer if the likes of Paul a'barge, Hoosier, etc. were wandering around with concealed weapons? How does that even remotely give anyone a feeling of confidence.; 5/21/09, 8:54 AM
hdhouse said...: Jen said...
"Doesn't really leave a lot of time to break out the gun if you are attacked by your neighbor."

I beg you Jen not to use logic or reason with the gun lobby. They recognize neither.; 5/21/09, 8:57 AM
hdhouse said...: Bill Kilgore said...
"... if you are lost or unable to proceed, you can fire 3 rounds in quick order as a distress call.."

handing Bill Kilgore a cell phone.........; 5/21/09, 9:00 AM
X said...: as much as they try to flip the script, the stench Jeremy of Freder's fear of guns is strong.; 5/21/09, 9:04 AM
Original Mike said...: handing Bill Kilgore a cell phone.........We can tell house doesn't spend any time in the backcountry. Cell phones don't tend to work back there.

Not that I'm endorsing Bill Kilgore's idea of the most likely use of a gun. The best way to avoid having to send a distress call is don't get lost.; 5/21/09, 9:07 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Why would I feel safer if the likes of Paul a'barge, Hoosier, etc. were wandering around with concealed weapons? .

Because you're a fucking moron who can't distinguish between a me being law abiding citizen minding my own business and a criminal seeking to do harm?

Maybe that's it.; 5/21/09, 9:15 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: if you are lost or unable to proceed, you can fire 3 rounds in quick order as a distress call.."

handing Bill Kilgore a cell phone..........

Good call hdhouse. I'm sure he never thought of that because we all are aware that cell phones work everywhere especially in National Parks and the wilderness. You can't get a better cell signal than in the middle of the Grand Tetons did you know that?That's why no one is ever lost out there and rescue easily find all those lost hikers by homing in on that cell phone signal.

Your logic and reason as well as common sense are razor sharp as always.; 5/21/09, 9:19 AM
Original Mike said...: Hell, there are plenty of places in northern Wisconsin that cell phones don't work (which I consider a good thing, actually).; 5/21/09, 9:28 AM
former law student said...: The best way to avoid having to send a distress call is don't get lost.

But that conflicts with this message I see occasionally:

http://www.bumperart.com/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=2004012314&productID=1634; 5/21/09, 10:17 AM
Original Mike said...: Link doesn't seem to work, FLS.; 5/21/09, 11:03 AM
raf said...: "Americans should give up right to carry the day the President gives up his Secret Service protection"

Good point. The incidence of fatal presidential assassinations over the last 40 years is zero, there is obviously no need for SS protection.; 5/21/09, 11:19 AM
Kirk Parker said...: hdhouse,

"There seems to be only 2 choices here. No guns or all guns."

I defy you to find any person here who ever said, even once, that anyone should be forced to carry or own firearms if they don't want to. This has never happened here.

"handing Bill Kilgore a cell phone........."

Ah [light bulb coming on] -- you must be one of those guys who lives in NYC and thinks a trip to Yonkers or Long Island is really roughing it! Have you the slightest clue how little of the West's wilderness areas have cell coverage? [Yes, that's a rhetorical question.]

And as I said above to Jeremy, if you go to Seattle (or Portland, OR, for that matter--Oregon is in general just as gun-friendly as Washington) there will be folks like Hoosier and myself carrying all around you, everywhere you go. And (this shouldn't need to be said, but probably does) it doesn't cause problems for anyone but criminals.; 5/21/09, 12:27 PM
Jen said...: DBQ said, "Actually. Stupid fuck was addressed to Jeremy. If you want to add stupid twat to your drinking list. Feel free. And if I say them both enough maybe you will both get liver cancer and die. Ha ha ha... that's a J.O.K.E. Just like Wanda Sykes. Tee hee. Get it? What? No sense of humour I suppose."

People who drink to much get sclerotic livers. The j.o.k.e. would have been funny if you would have gotten the disease right.; 5/21/09, 7:40 PM
Jen said...: BIG MIKE said,"why on earth do you think that a decision you've made for yourself ... ought necessarily to apply to me or, for that matter, to my wife?"

Apparently everyone around me is packing.

Ok, BM, I've thought about it.

I never presumed to make the decision for you or for your wife or whomever. I just don't think that the assumption that toting a gun around makes you safer is an accurate one. If you feel safer carrying, good. I don't.

I don't feel safer if I'm with someone who has a gun either.

Carry a gun. But the presumption that you are safer because you have one is a wrong one, the statistics (um) "bear" that out very nicely.

And yes, my dad was and is a member of the Racine Rifle Club. And yes, I did grow up around and learned how to fire several kinds of guns. And no, I don't think because we had these weapons in the house I was any safer. In order to keep them away from the kids, my dad had them hidden, tucked away, unloaded.

If someone broke into our house, he would have had to have gotten to the gun, wherever it was, loaded it, wherever that was, and then proceeded to confront the intruder in a calm and well trained manner. I don't think anyone is calm in situations like that, except maybe police, etc. And even well trained people, people who confront violent people for a living, get in trouble here.

DBQ, somewhere on this thread, said that she was really freaked out when she had to fire into the air when tracked by a mountain lion (or some other animal. . .I can't remember). Imagine if someone is skulking about your house. Are you really going to have the wherewithal to get your weapon of choice together, and then handle it the way you should?

So, that's it in a nutshell. It's not complete, but I told you I'd answer.; 5/21/09, 8:01 PM
Synova said...: If someone broke into our house, he would have had to have gotten to the gun, wherever it was, loaded it, wherever that was, and then proceeded to confront the intruder in a calm and well trained manner. I don't think anyone is calm in situations like that, except maybe police, etc. And even well trained people, people who confront violent people for a living, get in trouble here.I like that there is no alternative given here other than to... what? Hope no one breaks in?

Refuse to confront a violent person?

What do you do if your house gets broken into that you can not *also* do if you've got a weapon for home defense? Certainly the other useful, proper, response is still available and probably ought to be done *first*... so what is it?

I'm with Freeman on this one, seeing as Jeremy actually *said* that women weren't supposed to fight back against their attackers (!) I'm wondering what response to a home break-in is the "proper" one.

What I'm hearing sounds a whole lot like "lay back and think of England" or "don't resist and maybe you won't be harmed."

If that's not it... please clarify.; 5/21/09, 9:18 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jen, thank you for a thoughtful answer. Synova, and others, respectfully beg to disagree. (Okay, "respectfully" is not quite apt, but this isn't a blog to comment on if your skin is thin.)

My main point is that people who feel the need for self-defense have the right to defend themselves with an appropriate weapon -- or ought to. I'd like there to be widespread training in how to use and store the weapon safely so that there are fewer accidents, and I recognize that if someone is not prepared through practice at a range and other training to use the weapon then you might as well "lay back and think of England."

You make it sound like your Dad would have had problems locating and loading his handgun in the event of an intruder. I don't think it would have taken nearly that long, because I've timed myself reassembling and loading my field-stripped handgun. It can be pretty fast if you work at it. Of course there's the foggy brain of a person roused from deep sleep, plus adrenaline as you correctly point out.

You also, quite frankly, came across in your earliest comments as yet another bubble-brained liberal female frightened to death by the very thought of firearms. I seem to have been mistaken, on several of those points.; 5/21/09, 9:37 PM
Jen said...: Big Mike:

Thanks.
. . .
I think.

Jen; 5/21/09, 10:00 PM
Big Mike said...: @Jen. Welcome; 5/21/09, 10:07 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Jen,

"But the presumption that you are safer because you have one is a wrong one, the statistics (um) "bear" that out very nicely.... I don't think anyone is calm in situations like that, except maybe police, etc."

Complete nonsense. I suppose you're basing this on the comprehensively-refuted Kellerman study, right? Meanwhile, did you even bother to look at the Civilian Gun Self-Defense blog I referenced earlier. It abstracts news reports, day after day after day after day ad nauseum, of ordinary non-police folks doing just what you claim them to be incapable of: successfully defend themselves with firearms.

Big Mike,

We all want fewer accidents, at least I assume we all do. But you know what? We already do have fewer accidents: the rate of accidental shootings has been on a long, slow decline for quite a while. So while it's fine to wish all schools offered basic firearms safety training (and I heartily agree with you there), it's important to not present it as needed to stem some horrible slaughter.; 5/21/09, 11:38 PM
Big Mike said...: @Kirk, I stand corrected. I suppose I fell victim to the usual MSM practice of highlighting the accidents that do happen. Thanks.

(Er, you couldn't perhaps post a link to the statistics somewhere in the comments of a future Althouse post -- or maybe the one labeled "Guns" featuring the picture of a BAR?); 5/22/09, 8:53 AM
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