1. Depiction of the political process. (Other example: "The Candidate.")
2. Blending recreated historical scenes with archival footage of historical events.
3. Recreating the look and feel of the 1970s. (Other example: "Boogie Nights.")
4. Making an implicit and effective argument for a political position.
5. Showing a character's emotions through his reaction to opera. (Other examples: "Moonstruck," "Slumdog Millionaire.")
6. Artistic representation of the moment of death.
7. Artistic representation of assassination.
8. A serious drama that creates surprising empathy for a character who doesn't deserve it and is not the hero of the story. (Josh Brolin was painfully brilliant as Dan White.)
9. Depiction of a formal debate in a political campaign. (The debate with Briggs about Prop 6.)
10. A character tells his story into the microphone of a tape recorder. (Other examples: Philip Baker Hall as Nixon in Robert Altman's "Secret Honor," John Hurt in Atom Egoyan's version of "Krapp's Last Tape.")(Not quite in the category: Ralph Fiennes in "The Reader." It's not in the category because — spoiler — he's reading books, not telling his own story.)
11. Scene reflected in a convex mirror. (The fisheye effect.)
12. Scene shot through a window with reflections on the window.
13. Depicting the importance of whistles. (Here's the competition.)
14. Depiction of political apathy. (The first appearance of Cleve Jones, played by Emile Hirsch, who was Chris McCandless in "Into the Wild.")
15. Use of notes stuck all over the wall to create alarm about a character's mental distress. (Other example: "A Beautiful Mind.")
16. Recitation of (part of) "The Declaration of Independence."
17. Actors looking uncannily like the real-life characters they play.
18. Sean Penn movie.
19. Gus Van Sant movie.
20. Movie released in 2008.
December 31, 2008
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216 comments:
1 – 200 of 216 Newer› Newest»Milk" may be the best movie in all of the following categories:
I'm curious to know will fare over time. Will it last, like "It's A Wonderful Life"?
And in the category of best 2008 pictures viewed through a fisheye lens, the winner is ....
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(May we have the envelope, please?)
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(grins)
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(looks around, grins again)
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ANN ALTHOUSE!
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(cheers, applause, whoops)
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I thought Sean Penn was brillant. He looked and acted completely different from anything he has done before. It was the best performance by an actor that I had seen this year. I know people dislike him because of his politics but I find him to be one of the most interesting actors around. Also, he is hot.
I tend to like Gus Van Zant movies too. Too Die For; Gerry; Elephant; My Own Private Idaho to name a few that I liked.
After watching the movie I did something that I tend to do all the time. I googled every character to see where they are now. Cleve Jones is an interesting person and I have quite a bit of respect for him.
So you liked it Althouse?
Sorry. Won't watch it, ever.
I saw a documentary on him back in the 1980s. Meh. Minor local political figure assassinated by crazy white guy is a bad-enough premise, but add in the lefty liberal San Fransisco 1970s and I might have to commit suicide by overdosing on twinkies.
Somehow, the right to walk around nude and be masturbated by passersby on the streets doesn't strike me as a fundamental human right, much less a victory to be savored.
MILK ≠ MLK
Did you manage to control your multiple orgasms in the theater?
You forgot "movie designed to make homosexuals look like the victims of evil, narrow minded white Christian guys"
Man, Pogo nailed it.
This ain't the civil rights era. This is the cementing of rights in stone for a upper middle class demographic which they've been led to believe are their birthright as white people.
Petty, petty people. Given the right treatment, you could make Ted Bundy look like Christ.
Ditto Pogo. I saw the trailer, and was puzzled as to what exactly was the draw - unbalanced minor local political figure assassinated by crazy minor local political figure, in San Francisco(!). If the event itself isn't independently interesting to support historical treatment (cf. Frost/Nixon), the movie lives or dies on the merits of the story, and the story, frankly, looked very, very boring.
Ummm not all gays are upper middle class.
As a gay I don't want to walk around nude and be masturbated on by passerbys-that does not sound cool. Actually I don't know any gays that want to walk around nude and be masturbated on. I must of missed that meeting.
Apologies for intruding into this serious thread about cinema, but I must announce the new year tick has been spotted, and appears ready for new year's celebration.
Please forgive. Carry on.
"5. Showing a character's emotions through his reaction to opera. (Other examples: "Moonstruck," "Slumdog Millionaire.")"
See also--"Philadelphia," "Pretty Woman"--if you can call those real emotions, "Amadeus."
Was Harvey Milk's platform for people to walk around nude and be masturbated on?
I don't even want to be masturbated on by someone I trick out with.
5. Showing a character's emotions through his reaction to opera. (Other examples: "Moonstruck," "Slumdog Millionaire.")
What's wrong with me? I don't remember this in "Slumdog Millionaire".
5. Showing a character's emotions through his reaction to opera. (Other examples: "Moonstruck," "Slumdog Millionaire.")
What about the original Scarface?
FYI-Anita Bryant went backrupt and didn't pay her employees. She now lives in the beautiful state of Oklahoma. She was divorced and as a result was ridiculed by her church.
She sang Paper Roses before Marie Osmond did.
I might be willing to have Troop masturbate on me though.
"Was Harvey Milk's platform for people to walk around nude and be masturbated on?"
It was the net (and predictable) effect.
Up Your Alley Fair
San Francisco, July 27, 2008
NSFW.
NSFHome either.
Somehow, the right to walk around nude and be masturbated by passersby on the streets doesn't strike me as a fundamental human right, much less a victory to be savored
And this is where Pogo and those who agree with him are always wrong. Thinking that's what they were fighting for then (and now) is not only sad, it's quite indicative of the underlying hatred/fear (and curious fascination) of gay people: that they are sexual deviants constantly exhibiting offensive behavior.
Gay haters (and oh, I know, none of you have a "problem" with gays) like to paint gays as weirdos with unhealthy lifestyles, but each time the gays make inroads joining the mainstream via marriage, adoption, and even anti-discrimination laws in the workplace, the haters do everything in their power to block the progress. Keeping gays on the same level as pedophiles, as Rick Warren recently did, and, to a lesser degree, degrading them with cheap masturbation jokes, is the goal, of course. Keep the perception up that they are deviant, always.
The movie, by the way, was excellent, as the Professor said.
9. Depiction of a formal debate in a political campaign. (The debate with Briggs about Prop 6.)
This sucks donkey dick in comparison to the Lincoln Douglas debate in Abe Lincoln in Illinois.
Sean Penn couldn’t hold Raymond Massey’s jock.
As a gay I don't want to walk around nude and be masturbated on by passerbys-that does not sound cool.
It's on the super-secret gay agenda that only straight white guys seem to receive.
Showing a character's emotions through his reaction to opera..
What about Lon Chaney, Sr. in the original Phantom of The Opera?
I don't want to cum near anyone else's cum.
When they tell me they are about to shoot I move away.
Harvey Milk was an interesting character, and deserving of a movie. And that movie should have been made in 1985, when it would have been brave. Now it's just Hollywood buying grace on the cheap.
2. Blending recreated historical scenes with archival footage of historical events.
Well what about Tora, Tora, Tora.
And that is not about Ernie Borgnines wife.
Of course Pogo has a link like that.
Again, curious fascination.
How many gay people spend their time on the internet looking up straight sex and straight fetish sites?
Now Ernie Borgnine is the kind of guy who would like to be masturbated by people passing him on the street.
The guy is freakin' 97 or something and doesn't look a day over sixty. He might be on to something.
Same here on Sean Penn, Titus. I really really want to write him off for his politics, but he keeps giving great performances in solid movies.
I haven't seen MILK and doubt I will, but per some of the comments above, you probably can't say anything positive about gays without people responding, "Gay sex, eww!" and thinking they've said something intelligent.
"the super-secret gay agenda "
Is the Up Your Alley Fair super-secret?
"Thinking that's what they were fighting for then (and now) is not only sad,"
I can tell their is hufge huge opposition by gays to the Up Your Alley Fair. Huge.
Troop as a passerby to me on the street would you masturbate on me? Please, please?
As a gay I want to be masturbated on by a passerby.
It is in our bi-laws and gay laws.
Now, now Titus calm down. It's too cold in New York for that kind of thing.
Nobody wants to see a hog on ice.
I once had a waitress from Sloppy Louies give me a hand job in the parking lot of the Fulton Fish Market in 1983.
That's my only public masturbation story, sorry.
One of the "net effects" of Harvey Milk was helping to defeat Prop 6, which would have prevented gay people, and those who "support" them, from teaching school.
Guys walking around in San Fransisco is a net effect of people like Pogo. If straight people didn't freak out about things like Dore Alley and look at pictures of it and post links to it on blogs, Dore Alley never would have been necessary.
I think things like beauty pageants and wet t-shirt contests are gross but I don't go around looking at pictures of them and sharing them with friends.
Come to think of it that was New Year's eve too!
Pogo, really researches what the gays do. Pogo is interested in reading about these activities. Pogo likes reading about these activities. Pogo would like to observe these activities. Pogo may even be willing to participate in these activities.
I don't even put that much time in to find these events/
I guess I am missing out.
Yeah, Zach, curious. So difficult to find this shit when perusing, say, Michelle Malkin and other hater's sites, which is what haters like me do all day.
Look, I can't watch Sean Penn anymore because I can't stop seeing the bonehead paddling around Katrina getting his picture taken in knee-deep water. It's the first thing I think of when I see his face, and I cannot any longer suspend disbelief.
However, his turn as the murderer in Dead Man Walking did change me from anti-death penalty to pro-death penalty, so I do owe him one.
Come to think of it or think to come of it.
I've already started drinking.
Happy New Year.
Any more hot gay pixxx to share Pogo?
the haters do everything in their power to block the progress.
Zach: Don't forget that the Palin effigy was before Prop. 8. You don't happen to know anybody who likes picking on Palin do you?
I suppose this is equally offensive.
Yeah, Pogo can you direct me to some more gay sex sites? You seem to have a good handle on where to find these things.
Jaeger.
Chickenlittle, no one picked on Palin because she was straight, it was because they thought she was an idiot. Are you telling me that gay civil rights are comparable to Palin hatred? Ha ha.
"If straight people didn't freak out about things like Dore Alley and look at pictures of it and post links to it on blogs, Dore Alley never would have been necessary."
Yeah, it's people freaking out that's the problem with Dore Alley, Zach.
"Any more hot gay pixxx to share Pogo?"
"Yeah, Pogo can you direct me to some more gay sex sites? "
I have always found it passing strange that a common method of denigration used by gays is to suggest that those who disagree with them must be gay. Because of course it presumes there is something wrong with being gay. Odd.
Why is that, Zach?
No useful arguments, or did that inherent self-hatred part miss you?
I will be drinking Jager tonight, Trooper. Lots of it. And I will (hopefully) have lots of gay sex, with a man, or maybe...MEN!
It's called hypocrisy. Look it up.
Hey good luck with that.
I will be hanging out with tots and pigs.
Zach- you didn't click on my link to get the link, did you?
As for your link--I wish Trooper would post video links. That Firefly link of Simon's the other day was hot!
And no one is saying you are gay, Pogo. But it sure is strange that you are posting pictures of gay sex to denigrate gays. How about I post pictures of public straight sex to denigrate straights?
Hey I just mastered photos. Or masturbated to photos. Or something like that.
That's enough for 2008. Let's leave something for the new year.
Are you telling me that gay civil rights are comparable to Palin hatred
All hatred is linked somehow.
Happy New Year BTW
You mean hatred of the Boston Red Sox is linked to hatred of gays?
I mean they both suck but in differant ways. And most gay people you meet are pretty cool as witness the ones who post here.
The Red Sox on the other hand suck dead dogs. Just sayn.
Jager.
"somehow"!
Well, hating someone or a group of someones is a waste of time. Maybe 2009 will be the year of the end of hate. Yeah.
Happy New Year to you too, CL.
Take it easy, Titus. You've won. Your crowd is the establishment. You can't have that and victimhood. No more the thrill of being persecuted for you. Homos are the new ruling class! Nothing but thankless grinding responsibility from now on.
Zachary Paul Sire said...
"Keep the perception up that they are deviant, always."
It is deviant, as I pointed out to you (or tried to) last week. It seems to me that the rejection of the characterization of homosexuality as a deviant behavior (which, as I said last week, I do not mean as a pejorative) implies that what is at issue isn't a desire to be tolerated, but a desire to be accepted, an intense desire to be seen as normal no matter what (that desire isn't deviant, but it does suggest rejection issues and unresolved trauma). I don't fret about whether my deviances are accepted, and nor should you. It suffices that they're tolerated (or not noticed).
Titus actually has it down, to tell the truth. He owns his deviant status; he does what and who he wants, and he doesn't much care if anyone approves. There's a lot to be said for that attitude.
Some people seem desperate to be seen as normal; some people seem desperate to be seen as special. Althouse even has a tag for that oversensitivity about being seen.
Zachary Paul Sire said...
"And I will (hopefully) have lots of gay sex, with a man, or maybe...MEN!"
Ah, the electrical engineer's dilemma: serial, or parallel? ;)
Either way, enjoy. :)
"Well, hating someone or a group of someones is a waste of time. Maybe 2009 will be the year of the end of hate. Yeah."
Hey hating the Red Sox is never a waste of time.
Jager,Jager.
"you are posting pictures of gay sex to denigrate gays"
Bullshit, of course, Zach.
The Castells Reader on "Cities and Social Theory" suggests this type of behavior represents "cultural expressions of the need to destroy whatever moral values straight society had left them with since these values have traditionally been used to exploit and repress homosexuality.
...This is why gay celebrations, no matter how brilliant and humorous they are, can only be city celebrations in part. There is always an underlying sexual dimension that is untenable for many people, not only because of its homosexuality but its sexuality.
Unable to build bridges towards a broader and deeper cultural transformation, the gay community is in danger of internal destruction by introspective forces thatmight cause the community to forget that human experience has to be a social experience if it's going to last and grow.".
pp.217-8
It's beyond bothersome that gays, like blacks, and other identity groups permit no discussion of these issues ever. Disagreement is heresy.
You think Milk was the gay equivalent of King. Great. I think the Harvey Milk Gay Democratic Club's agenda led directly to what San Fransisco is today. You think it's great? Fine. I beg to differ.
But don't pull that 'hater' shit on me.
Simon, I'll stop asking to be seen as "normal" when people stop going out of their way to label me "abnormal" by passing discriminatory laws against me and comparing me to pedophiles. Thank you.
Happy New Year.
You think Milk was the gay equivalent of King. Great.
Nope. Show me where I said or implied that.
I think the Harvey Milk Gay Democratic Club's agenda led directly to what San Fransisco is today. You think it's great? Fine.
Nope. Show me where I said or implied that.
When you're tasteless, underemployed and live with your parents you drink Jägermeister on New Year's Eve. When you're as brilliant and wonderful as me, you drink Krug Brut 1988.
When you desperately need to prove how sensitive and liberal you are, you drink Milk.
"Show me where I said or implied that."
Good lord, Zach, then what in heavens name are you carrying on about?
"Zachary Paul Sire said...
Simon, I'll stop asking to be seen as "normal" when people stop going out of their way to label me "abnormal" by passing discriminatory laws against me and comparing me to pedophiles. Thank you."
So, if I understand you correctly, you are determined to be unreasonable as long as others are too? You must realize that there will always be unreasonable people out there. Are you going to let that fact keep you from ever being reasonable?
Palladian - It seems Trooper is on his 3rd or 4th Jager about now. What are you saying about him? I'm drinking a Negra Modelo because it's 70 degrees here this afternoon, and the mountain snow is disappearing fast.
ZPS - are you really trying to argue equivalence between Up Your Alley and a bikini contest in a bar? Is the Alley an otherwise public place or is it private property? You normally write so cogently, but I think you are off the mark a bit here.
It's not hypocracy or self-hate to point out that some elements of the "gay community" (using the term for lack of a better one) have been and continue to be destructive and depraved. But the eternal conundrum with identity politics is that exclusion of anyone, or any group, from the "fold" is ultimately denounced as bigotry. Therefore there can only be inclusion, and there can never be discrimination (using the positive sense of the word). This is how you end up with the Folsom Street Fair and NAMBLA and how you go from being gay & lesbian to LesGayBiTgTsGenderQueerEtc. I think all identity politics groups will eventually coalesce into a giant, whiny, useless ball of grievance that will call itself US and call the rest of us THEM before it rolls over and squishes us.
Hey I am a drunken Irishman with low class tastes. Or good taste as you might say.
To each his own.
To some it is Krug and truffles with a winsome bus boy from Salt.
To others a buxom brunette with Jager and tater tots and pigs in a blanket.
Let's all live and let live.
I know it was just Althouse posting this and not saying it herself, but I figured the sentiment was shared to some extent...
"And what I would give to see a movie in which the death of a martyr is not filmed in excruciating, can-you-believe-how-tragic-this-is slow motion."
Christopher Orr, writing about "Milk."
If the death scene is shot in slo-mo, that would (by itself) be enough to make me not want to see it.
Oops I misspelled ''hypocrisy'. I'm on my iPhone so I ain't correcting it.
I agree.
Except for the Wild Bunch.
Ernie Borgnine dying in slow motion is always a hoot.
That jerking off fool.
Jager. Beer. Jager.
are you really trying to argue equivalence between Up Your Alley and a bikini contest in a bar?
Something is always going to be offensive to someone.
But no, neither event offends me at all.
Dammit Trooper, I'm still at work, and you have a huge head start.
Spot me 5 shots or go to sleep for an hour. Give a guy a chance, willya?
No problem Pogo. On body weight alone we are just even. Plus it is so cold here today the Jager is not having any effect.
I am just doing one with everyone who comes in to wish a happy New Year. You know the UPS guy, the mailman, the neighbors, the old lady with the walker I lend twenty dollars to every week and Ernie Borgnine. It's a Carroll Gardens tradition.
"But no, neither event offends me at all.
That view is exactly what the paragraph I quoted discusses. As much as it may bore you, it pretty well describes why that's such a big deal for many other people.
"Something is always going to be offensive to someone."
Moral equivalency is such an easy way out. But if it's true, and the correct response is "so what", why are you offended at what I say? Am I not permitted the same ability, the freedom to offend? Why not?
Zachary Paul Sire said...
"Simon, I'll stop asking to be seen as 'normal' when people stop going out of their way to label me 'abnormal' by passing discriminatory laws against me and comparing me to pedophiles."
So you'll stop asking to be seen as normal when you are? Under what circumstances do you usually continue to ask for what you've already been given?
#5 - with apologies, if someone mentioned it already - Philadelphia.
Am I not permitted the same ability, the freedom to offend?
Of course you are. And you're not offending me, you are just propagating negative stereotype. That's your deal...fine.
With that said, I am off to go buy a new outfit for tonight. Happy New Year to all, may the Jager go down smooth.
Trooper - How about the guy who delivers the morning paper? Nothing like sitting on the porch steps at 4AM with your bottle of Jag, waiting.
And WTF is this all about? You can get into a lot of trouble for this, you know.
I have to confess, every time I see the ad for Milk and Penn says the "I'm here to recruit you" line, he sounds like the mentally retarded character he played in I Am Sam. Hopefully I won't hear it if I see the movie.
Since I know that it's not okay to dislike the movie Milk without being labled an insensitive homophobe...
...I'd rather not watch the film than take that risk.
Meanwhile, California is trying to line up for bailout money; thank God for the political left in San Francisco.
Come to think of it that was New Year's eve too!
What you planning for this year, Troop?
Pigs and tots amba, pigs and tots.
Hey the Fedex guy is here.
Jager.
"And you're not offending me, you are just propagating negative stereotype."
...which Zach doesn't find offensive, apparently, but is just bringing it up. For hoots.
5. Showing a character's emotions through his reaction to opera. (Other examples: "Moonstruck," "Slumdog Millionaire.")
Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman."
It's not hypocrisy or self-hate to point out that some elements of the "gay community" (using the term for lack of a better one) have been and continue to be destructive and depraved.
Phew, good thing such elements haven't emerged in the straight world! /sarcasm
Sorry - statements like that are what nourish identity politics. I have very little intellectual sympathy for "community-think" but comments like that bother me more. It's not especially brave to admit that every despised community includes people who deserve to be despised.
6. Artistic representation of the moment of death.
Is that possible after Lee Marvin's death scene in The Killers (1964)?
Then again, I haven't seen Milk yet, so I don't know if you mean an actual death scene or a cinematic metaphor for the moment of death.
Not to diminish the importance of Milk's activism or his role in the campaign against the Briggs Initiative, but the single most important event in that campaign was Ronald Reagan's public opposition to it. (See From Identity to Politics: The The Lesbian and Gay Movements in the United States pp.130-31)
Oops! The question was premature.
If the death scene is shot in slo-mo, that would (by itself) be enough to make me not want to see it.
Me too, ever since the air crucifixion of Willem Dafoe in Platoon.
Speaking of drunken Irishman, am I the only one to notice the startling similarities between red haired freckle faced Neanderthals and the modern day Irish?
So combining Freeman's and Randy's astute observations, we get this: Ron and Angie.
Pigs and tots amba, pigs and tots.
LOL, somebody coming in on this assuming it was a thread with some kind of sexual theme could be badly misled.
That's the whole idea of the Althouse blog. We are all talking at each other but unless you are paying attention you are totally lost.
Tropic Thunder has completely destroyed the slow-motion hero's death.
Troop, how many times have you heard, "Friends don't let friends get head in the Fulton Fish Market drunk."? It's an 'stuck-in-the-box' ticket, I think...
Ron and Angie
Phenomenal scene, especially in the context of what happens after the heist. I wish that Reagan had played more movie villains. I started that movie thinking that he would probably make a mediocre bad guy, but he was excellent. His intelligence comes through so obviously in his eyes that the villain seems especially calculating and formidable.
Hey I refuse to be responsible for anything I did in the eighties. The statue of limitation applies.
Oh cool, the girl who owns the card store is here with our Christmas present.
Jager.
To reach parity with Trooper's bacchanal, I'll start an ethanol IV on myself.
The goddamned IV pole is a pain to drag around, but nobody gives you any shit when you start slurring and falling all over things and pissing on rocks and calling it music.
They just figure you're dying.
Which is true, just not right now.
unless you are paying attention you are totally lost.
Thats me.
Cue Alice in Wonderland where nothing can ever be the same.
Pogo, I think you are starting to channel "House".
As long as he doesn't channel Big Momma's house. He farts enough as it is.
Oh wait, here's the kid from NineD with the spring rolls.
Jager.
The worst part of what took place in SF that day was the rise of DiFi, which began when she did the presser after the murders. That is truly the saddest part of this whole sordid story.
She dragged her weak minded sister, daughter of the corrupt Bawmer mayor along with her, and the rest, as it is often said, is history.
"He farts enough as it is."
But they smell like a breezy meadow after a soft spring rain.
A breezy meadow with a herd of wet cows and dampened dung.
Another bad slow-mo death: Boromir in Fellowship of the Ring
Is the Up Your Alley Fair super-secret?
I've never heard of it until you posted your porn link, Pogo. But I don't go trolling rightwing website looking for evidence of debauched gay events. I don't hang out at evangelical churches, either, where I'm sure this is a bit hit as well.
Jen, well said: It's not especially brave to admit that every despised community includes people who deserve to be despised.
Trooper, enjoy the pig. We're having crawfish etouffee. Yum! Happy New Year - and in case you haven't heard, the Giants are going to win the Super Bowl.
So I just read the whole thread and not just the movie-related comments, and there are people actually defending Up Your Alley?! I cannot imagine how anyone, aside from the actual participants in the event, could not find that offensive.
It's okay to find some things tasteless and bad. It's okay to have class. You don't have to apologize for every depraved twit who wants to pee on people, masturbate on people, or have public sex. Geeze.
Trooper you are priceless.
But I don't go trolling rightwing website looking for evidence of debauched gay events.
Is this a rightwing website? Is this a church? The first time I ever heard of that event was in a comment thread on this site several weeks ago.
Freeman, I don't see anyone here defending that event. If Zach's comments come close to that, I'd call them more defensive than defending.
If you want to label something as bad taste, how about you start with the bullshit Pogo lays down with "Gay rights? You must mean a bunch of guys having sex in public!"
"Milk" may be the best movie in all of the following categories:
...
10. A character tells his story into the microphone of a tape recorder.
No, the winner in that category is Double Indemnity.
The first time I ever heard of that event was in a comment thread on this site several weeks ago.
I missed that - who posted it? My money's on someone who found it on Malkin or some other rightwing website.
Freeman, I don't know how closely I read the comments, but I don't know if anyone was defending it. But here's how I view it.
Was anyone hurt? No. Were the adults consenting? Apparently. Am I offended? No. Is this one tiny sliver of a population? Yes. Would I want to see my kid on that website? No. Do I think it's tasteless? You betcha. I think the same thing of anyone flaunting what I think should be private.
Part of the reason I'm not offended is that I think the participants want me to be, by pushing the envelope. I also avoid conflict, and by being offended, I'm courting conflict, so...
I do think it's silly to go looking for things to offend you, though. And then to keep going back to them. I don't know if that's my avoidance, though, or just good common sense.
The generic you, of course, not you as in you. If you know what I mean.
You must mean a bunch of guys having sex in public!
I wonder what percent of the participants at that event go home to their wives.
Zach's comments plainly defend it. Now MM is joining in.
We're not talking about some wild, private party. We're talking about a public event on a public street. As it's a public event, it's ridiculous to attack Pogo for posting about it, accusing him of looking for porn. (Though one could argue his conclusions, but many seem to be finding it easier to just call him a closeted gay guy or a porn head.) And it's certainly valid to criticize San Francisco for becoming overly lax on community standards. It has. The pictures help make that case.
Happy New Year Beth and all the rest at Althouse.
May you all have a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year and find what ever it is you are looking for.
Jager.
pissing on rocks and calling it music
Ahhh. music.
I followed the initial link to "Up Your Alley." Got as far as the warning. Turned back.
The trailer is an excellent example of a "Lessig Method" presentation, named for the famous law professor Larry Lessig.
I'm not sure which group is more tiresome, the people who go to see "Milk" in order to show how tolerant and liberal they are (as opposed to going to see it because they want to see a good movie), or people who don't go to see "Milk" and say they their refusal to see the movie is their brave stand against political correctness and liberal Hollywood.
Actually, that's not true. I'm sure the second group is more tiresome. The first group, while annoying, is generally well-meaning and clumsily tries to make this country an even better place to live in, while the latter group generally makes things worse for everyone around them. They've particularly been successful in doing so over the last eight or so years, but hopefully that trend will be reversed or at least mitigated in the new year.
Re the SF gay street fair in public!
Someone excused it as just "bad taste" while criticizing Pogo and Freeman Hunt for being aware of its video existence! As if they are at fault for being informed!
I suggest that commenter make a resolution to condemn horrible acts no matter who was involved.
Regarding #18 - Best Sean Penn movie is Fast Times at Ridgemont High. It's been downhill for him since.
OK, I just went through the pictures and thought they were gross.
I never heard of that event before.
I of course have heard of the Folsom Street Fair but not that one.
The guys are not my type. I wouldn't attend something like that and neither would my friends. Even if the guys were my type I would not attend that. I don't find that interesting sexually. I don't like watching people have sex and don't like to be watched.
I thought the entire thing looked pretty ridiculous.
I did think the guys captions were kind of funny though.
I don't even attend gay pride parades.
I don't like being around a bunch of other gay people.
An honest question that has puzzled me for a long time for the gay visitors here. Are you proud of the gay pride parades held in San Francisco?
It's long seemed to me that they are very counterproductive; while demanding to be accepted as normal [Simon's argument aside] doesn't it bug Gays to see other Gays act like complete freaks?
doesn't it bug Gays to see other Gays act like complete freaks?
I rather suspect some of them enjoy the opportunity to bash objectors as bigots.
Don't get your panties in a knot over those street festivals in San Francisco. I have NO idea why that is considered relevant, since this is a post about Milk, which has nothing to do with those festivals. But my understanding of those festivals is that they're sexually explicit and technically outdoors but not "in public" because you need to be 18 to get in. If you're gonna get all offended about that, why not just get offended by the existence of pornography? Perhaps you do. Seems to me to be a bunch of nothin'.
By the way, I say Milk is the best movie of the year. The Fall would be the main competition.
If you're gonna get all offended about that, why not just get offended by the existence of pornography?
When a city blocks off part of a public street from people under 18 to project pornography in the public space, let me know.
We're not talking about some wild, private party. We're talking about a public event on a public street.
It may be "public" but it's not like any old Joe Six Pack will just stumble upon Dore Alley and be inundated with dicks and butts. It's a very insulated, local event that everyone in the community knows about. If you want to go, go. If you don't, don't.
And I am not "defending" the event, as someone said. It's a silly gathering that is obviously and clearly for the enjoyment of consenting adults. I never would have thought about it or spoke about it if Pogo hadn't been peddling XXX pictures of it.
Now.
I got my outfit for tonight. A Ben Sherman "super slim fit" shirt with fun buttons all over it, which is solid navy blue with no lame designs or patterns. Simple and classy. For pants, I found a classic blue pair of Paper Denim jeans, on sale, for $39, size 31w, 34l. I feel like I'm venturing into a poor imitation of Titus with these details, so I will stop.
"Actually, that's not true. I'm sure the second group is more tiresome. The first group, while annoying, is generally well-meaning and clumsily tries to make this country an even better place to live in, while the latter group generally makes things worse for everyone around them."
Why do you assume that the second group is not "generally well-meaning"? Why do you assume they aren't trying to make this country and even better place to live in? I've never understood why it's assumed that liberals "mean well" and that conservatives are simply "evil" or "ignorant".
"They've particularly been successful in doing so over the last eight or so years, but hopefully that trend will be reversed or at least mitigated in the new year."
Blah blah blah. It seems to me that "well-meaning" liberals tend to fuck things up just as often as "well-meaning" conservatives. Perhaps more in the long run, since some of the nation's worst problems like the damage done by the welfare state and the massive enlargement of federal government and federal power in the 1930s were the result of "well-meaning" liberals. The road to Hell, you should recall, is paved with good intentions. What will Obama's "good intentions" and the pavers required to lay them cost us? That road is probably getting mighty close to Hell by now.
"It may be "public" but it's not like any old Joe Six Pack will just stumble upon Dore Alley and be inundated with dicks and butts. It's a very insulated, local event that everyone in the community knows about. If you want to go, go. If you don't, don't."
Do you agree, then, that a public street should be allowed to be used in that manner, at a cost to the taxpayers of the community? Do you believe that the police should selectively ignore laws that would get the "revelers" arrested in any other public venue? Should the local government be allowing an event in a public venue that encourages and consists of dangerous sexual behavior that may lead to the transmission of diseases that the public health system will most likely have to pay for?
A number of years ago a group of us were arguing about the "normalcy" of gay sex. Then my beautiful Jewish girlfriend spoke up and said "Look, its not all that complicated. The parts don't fit and if you try to make 'em fit, your gonna get sick." This brought the argument to a quick stop and somebody rolled a joint. I still wonder what the hell her point was.
Do you agree...
I'm not interested in judging whatever local community events are going, so long as they don't hurt me or anyone I care about. If the taxpayers up there have a problem with it (which they obviously don't), they can take it up with their local elected officials.
And keep in mind that this event takes place, literally, in an alley, for a couple of blocks, so let's not pretend that it's some massive event that disrupts the entire city of San Francisco.
The parts don't fit and if you try to make 'em fit, your gonna get sick
I've never gotten sick from any gay sex, and believe me, the parts fit just fine.
Freeman Hunt said...
When a city blocks off part of a public street from people under 18 to project pornography in the public space, let me know.
A portion of the street being blocked off for a purpose that you don't particularly want to participate in may be annoying, but it's hardly something to get up-in-arms about from thousands of miles away, or even from a few blocks away. It's not nearly as bad as these disgusting marathons that lock down large portions of a city just so people can congratulate themselves on what heroes they are for jogging.
Also, many of you are adamant about these things, when I doubt you really know the extent to which they are or are not public. Something can be on a normally-public street and not be open to the public.
And again, I fail to see how any of this is relevant to Milk, a biopic about a man who died years before these fairs began.
Why do you assume that the second group is not "generally well-meaning"?
Personal experience with social conservative types. I live in Texas, after all, which is a wonderful place to live, despite the nontrivial amount of social conservatives who live here.
Perhaps more in the long run, since some of the nation's worst problems like the damage done by the welfare state and the massive enlargement of federal government and federal power in the 1930s were the result of "well-meaning" liberals.
That conclusion is controversial, at best. While Amity Shlaes and her modern American Liberty League supporters may like to promote that sort of ideas, most thinking people believe (correctly) that the New Deal and Roosevelt's leadership during that era made America a much better place. If memory serves, even Ronald Reagan had lots of good things to say about FDR.
Anyway, off to a New Year's Eve party, which will be thrown by a libertarian-Republican friend of mine. Should be a good time, and I'm all for bipartisanship at the right moments in time.
Hey, the public sex thing is no big deal.
It's not like it's a nativity scene or something truly offensive that should only be tolerated (just barely) in public.
mtrobertsattorney said...
A number of years ago a group of us were arguing about the "normalcy" of gay sex. Then my beautiful Jewish girlfriend spoke up and said "Look, its not all that complicated. The parts don't fit and if you try to make 'em fit, your gonna get sick."
Therein lies the danger of dating "beautiful" people.
And again, I fail to see how any of this is relevant to Milk, a biopic about a man who died years before these fairs began.
An important point. Why do people assume that Milk would like these sorts of festivals? Had he lived, it's possible that Milk may have become some sort of a conservative (at least on some matters) over the years, particularly once the HIV epidemic struck. He started out as a Goldwater supporter, after all.
So now we're equating public orgies with sporting events? Again, there's nothing wrong with taste. There's nothing wrong with discriminating between what is and what isn't appropriate in the public space.
And again, I fail to see how any of this is relevant to Milk, a biopic about a man who died years before these fairs began.
Digression being a new thing around here.
It's not like it's a nativity scene or something truly offensive that should only be tolerated (just barely) in public.
Heh. Same thing I keep thinking of.
And again, I fail to see how any of this is relevant to Milk, a biopic about a man who died years before these fairs began.
And I see no relevance between Obama being elected President and Martin Luther King, King having died 40 years ago.
Why do people assume that Milk would like these sorts of festivals?
Has anyone assumed that? Based on what I've read of him, I think he would have condemned them. I'd like to see more people condemn them too.
Freeman Hunt said...
So now we're equating public orgies with sporting events?
You got a problem with that?
You got a problem with that?
Yes. It's intellectually lazy.
Everything's relative. Everything has equal value. The best course is to refrain from discriminating between ideas of any kind. It's all the same.
Or not.
Quote of the thread:
If straight people didn't freak out about things like Dore Alley and look at pictures of it and post links to it on blogs, Dore Alley never would have been necessary.
Remember, ZPS has no feelings at all about these events, except to say that they are necessary.
Reminds me of that old SNL Billy Jack parody: "If only there wasn't so much prejudice, Billy Paul wouldn't have to kill so many people."
somefeller said...
And again, I fail to see how any of this is relevant to Milk, a biopic about a man who died years before these fairs began.
An important point. Why do people assume that Milk would like these sorts of festivals? Had he lived, it's possible that Milk may have become some sort of a conservative (at least on some matters) over the years, particularly once the HIV epidemic struck. He started out as a Goldwater supporter, after all.
Yeah, good point, the entire Harvey Milk story is pre-AIDS and has to be viewed in that context. Harvey Milk himself never heard of HIV. And in the movie, his boyfriend points out that he used to be a Republican.
It's not nearly as bad as these disgusting marathons that lock down large portions of a city just so people can congratulate themselves on what heroes they are for jogging.
There's a resentment waiting for greater explanation.
You can always count on Zachery to screech his paranoia about being painted a deviant homosexual outcast by lashing out at the rest of the heterosexual population by calling them hate-filled homophobes who don't understand homosexuality and it's rainbow of flavors while trying to uphold the virtues of homosexuality and it's deliberate contrarian nature by applauding the entertainments industry's depiction of what they think a bold, out-there, fresh-faced, charismatic, foul-mouthed homosexual is.
Zachery to call you a tool would be an insult to hammers and screwdrivers everywhere. Your nonsense has been falling on deaf ears since you put your hands to a keyboard.
Freeman Hunt said...
You got a problem with that?
Yes. It's intellectually lazy.
What's intellectually lazy is your inability to do anything other than express feigned outrage over something that is completely inconsequential and not engage with my legitimate comparison other than to, yet again, feign outrage. Telling people how offended you are by something might sway a lot of people, but it does nothing for me.
"Telling people how offended you are by something might sway a lot of people, but it does nothing for me."
LOL. Hilarious coming from a Democrat and former Hillary supporter.
What sort of moral depravity equates jogging for charity with public golden showers and fisting?
Reminds me of that old SNL Billy Jack parody: "If only there wasn't so much prejudice, Billy Paul wouldn't have to kill so many people."
Heh. I'm still trying to mentally prepare myself to watch the Billy Jack sequel which I've heard is so boring that viewing it requires the stamina of a marathon.
"I'm still trying to mentally prepare myself to watch the Billy Jack sequel which I've heard is so boring that viewing it requires the stamina of a marathon..."
which, we've learned, is just as disgusting as 70 year old men in leather thongs drinking piss.
not engage with my legitimate comparison other than to, yet again, feign outrage
Your "legitimate comparison?" It's such a bizarre comparison that you're going to have to explain its validity before anyone addresses it. You can't just assert that two things, which are totally different on their faces, are the same without explaining how.
Do you just mean that they're both public? If so, that has been addressed. The response is that not all public events are equally acceptable.
JohnAnnArbor said... [quoting me]
It's not nearly as bad as these disgusting marathons that lock down large portions of a city just so people can congratulate themselves on what heroes they are for jogging.
There's a resentment waiting for greater explanation.
You have to be in a situation where you can't get anywhere in the city because some marathon is spiraling through the whole city, causing traffic jams and making you an hour late for anything. Go to the gym if you wanna work out! Don't close the city. When I did the AIDS Ride, we dealt with traffic like everybody else, and we went 500 miles. If you've got some stupid festival and all you're doing is blocking a little alleyway or a block or two on a street that isn't an important connecting road for commuters, knock yourself out! Just make sure you're bringing in some money for the beloved economy.
This is the difference between living in the real world and looking at issues in the abstract.
If we want to go after deviants, how about all those sensitive female singer-songwriters who are contributing to the delinquency of A minor?
Palladian said...
"Telling people how offended you are by something might sway a lot of people, but it does nothing for me."
LOL. Hilarious coming from a Democrat and former Hillary supporter.
Please, it's the Obamacons and the Republicans who spend their time getting all offended about everything. Hillary isn't so easily offended.
You have to be in a situation where you can't get anywhere in the city because some marathon is spiraling through the whole city, causing traffic jams and making you an hour late for anything.
That's an issue of whether or not a city should have big, community events at all. That's not a community standards issue. That's what some of us are objecting to, not the idea of public events, but the idea of totally depraved and obscene public events.
Your nonsense has been falling on deaf ears since you put your hands to a keyboard.
And yet, here you are, singling me out.
the idea of totally depraved and obscene public events
What's obscene to you is not obscene to the taxpaying citizens of San Francisco. You don't like it? Don't go.
With that said, you need to loosen up a bit, "Freeman Hunt." Have you ever done anal?
Christopher Althouse Cohen said...
"[T]his is a post about Milk, which has nothing to do with those festivals."
I thought Pogo's comments were asserting that what Milk did set the stage for later events, including those he's talking about here (the, uh, what's it called - the "Up Your Alley Fair" or whatever). And maybe he's wrong, but surely the assertion makes it germane to the topic, if for no other purpose than explaining why linking Milk to subsequent events is inaccurate. For example, the Iraq War would, to some extent, seem germane to a post about a biopic of George H.W. Bush, insofar as it was his refusal to pursue Hussein to Baghdad at the end of the Gulf War that set the stage for (and in my own view, necessitated) the later action by his son.
What's obscene to you is not obscene to the taxpaying citizens of San Francisco. You don't like it? Don't go.
There are no taxpaying citizens who object? I doubt that. Also, I'm not a relativist. I think it's perfectly acceptable to debate the merits of culture in other places.
With that said, you need to loosen up a bit, "Freeman Hunt." Have you ever done anal?
Now you've convinced me. You really are a classy guy.
This will be my last comment on this topic, because it's getting really redundant. My point is that the event is closed to the public and therefore it's not a matter of exposing people to pornography in an inappropriate way. As for the matter of public space being used for a private event you don't like, at that point I think the only real concern is its actual effect on the public, which I have described and which I think is based on its effect on traffic.
I think the only real concern is its actual effect on the public, which I have described and which I think is based on its effect on traffic.
That's where we disagree. I don't think that traffic is the only concern. I think that community standards and the effect on the public of maintaining them is a legitimate basis of concern.
You really are a classy guy.
I'll take that as a "no."
Hey, you're the one commenting about people peeing on each other and masturbating on each other. If you're comfortable enough to pass judgment on other peoples' private parties in a public forum, you better be fine with someone questioning your sexual behavior. Unfortunately, based on your comments here, I can only assume that your sex life is boring. Too bad.
Christopher Althouse Cohen said...
"Hillary isn't so easily offended."
Her spokesman ("Senator Clinton is pleased to learn of Jon's obvious interest in the state department") is actually paraphrasing; her original response was "hells yeah I'm getting me some of that."
It's a shame she's ineligible, I would rather like her as SecState, although I'd have preferred her in the White House.
I'll take that as a "no."
No, you should take it as a "My sex life is none of your business." You could also take it as "Your sexism isn't cute," or "You're a classless child." Any of those would work.
Zachary Paul Sire said...
"[O]ther peoples' private parties in a public forum...."
I'm going to assume that was sarcasm. You can't seriously be suggesting privacy interests attach to actions taken in a public setting, or compare what is done in private with what is done in public! There are arguments to be made either way for a ban on sodomy in a private setting (personally I'm generally against them), but there's nothing at all to be said against a ban on public sexual conduct.
Simon, you misunderstood. The public forum I'm referring to is the Althouse comments section.
No, you should take it as a "My sex life is none of your business."
As are the sex lives of the people in Dore Alley. Hypocrite.
As are the sex lives of the people in Dore Alley. Hypocrite.
Were I conducting my sex life in the middle of a public street, you might have a point. As reality currently stands, you don't.
Zach said: With that said, you need to loosen up a bit, 'Freeman Hunt.' Have you ever done anal?
Interesting choice of words there Zach. Your own sex-life must be modeled on porn. I think you must be drunk, and you may want to delete that comment when you sober up.
Identity politics here once again slides into its expected pattern, wherein any criticism of even a small part of the group is forbidden, and represented as an attack on the whole.
I quoted a book that explains how these 'celebrations' can be detrimental not just to the city, but to gay people that desire parity.
Milk was part of the SF gay movement into politics, and that set the stage for events like Up Your Alley Fair.
An unintended consequence perhaps, but a direct result. Debate that if you will, but try to do so without claiming people are secretly gay (which as I said is a very odd perjorative, much as it rests on the idea that 'there's something wrong with that.')
none of your business ..."As are the sex lives of the people in Dore Alley."
Sex on a public street is none of my business?
Since when?
Were I conducting my sex life in the middle of a public street...
And thank god you're not.
Again, you know nothing about the public/private nature of Dore Alley, how the event is handled, who can see what's going on in there, who can't, etc. So unless you live in an apartment over one of the golden shower tents or leather booths, you really come off as a fool judging these people for behavior that has no effect on you or anyone you know, and bothers no one in the community.
Good night you piss drinkers and leather queens! I'm off to do obscene things in public.
"and bothers no one in the community"
No one in California is bothered by that?
I have my doubts, Zach.
FH: Were I conducting my sex life in the middle of a public street...
ZPS: And thank god you're not.
Because, you know, that would be offensive, seeing as how you're not gay.
Because, you know, that would be offensive, seeing as how you're not gay.
Heck, it would almost be as offensive as that nativity scene you mentioned.
Remove the "gay" aspect of this for moment. Public depravity occurred. This is nothing new. And there is nothing good about it. Christopher, you make it sound like "Up Your Alley" was staged on some Hollywood set. The fact is it was staged on public property. I side with Freeman here.
The link between MILK (which I probably won't see) and the Up Your Alley event is obvious to most. Again, it's not even really a "gay" issue. A part of San Francisco is depraved. Lax city government is partly responsible. "Milk" is about San Francisco government.
You're really arguing about whether Harvey Milk represents some sort of tipping point. I'm voting present on that one.
"Milk" is an excellent movie, and I would encourage those of you who are resisting it to see it with an open mind. I was going to shun it too, because I didn't see much point in watching the recreation of a historical event that could be read about in 2 minutes, and I don't like political propaganda or actor fests. But I decided to see it because we're seeing all the very well-reviewed year-end movies this week and it's obviously on the list.
The issue of public sex may be important, but it's not too relevant to "Milk," which depicts an era in which the police were raiding gay bars and arresting people for no reason and many people thought gay teachers should be fired even if they never did or said anything gay-related in class. I'm almost sure no one here supports that kind of discrimination. The political issue is an easy one for us now.
That means you can see this movie as an interesting character study of a man moving into political power. It's surprisingly sympathetic to the murderer. We see that Milk got a little power mad in the end and used his clout against Dan White, who had his own problems. It's really a very well made drama about the political process, and not a big piece of gay rights propaganda.
Penn does not overact. He gives an interesting performance. And Brolin is devastatingly good as the murderer. Really. Just put aside thoughts of what it might be and see it.
Have fun, Zachary. Thanks for spending part of the eve with us.
chickenlittle said...
Remove the "gay" aspect of this for moment. Public depravity occurred. This is nothing new. And there is nothing good about it. Christopher, you make it sound like "Up Your Alley" was staged on some Hollywood set. The fact is it was staged on public property
I know I said I was done, but let me say something. "Hollywood set" is an interesting choice of words. As someone who lives in Los Angeles, I frequently see city blocks closed off for filming a street scene. The street is no longer open to the public when this happens. A couple months ago, they shot a scene for "Numb3rs" a block from my apartment, and the scene had police cars, fire trucks, etc. It looked like they were shooting something just after a big accident or crisis. Now, what if they shot a scene with something inappropriate for younger viewers? A violent scene or (*gasp*) a sexually explicit scene? Would it be wrong to close off the street from public view and shoot the scene there? If (and this is a big if) there is any violation of public standards in doing this, it seems VERY minimal, and certainly not enough to get all worked up about. And CERTAINLY not enough to reflect poorly on a discriminated-against minority group through some flimsy connection to the filming.
Just in case I haven't said it enough already: Zachary Paul Sire lives with Mom and Dad.
Heh.
It's not easy to shame the shameless but I try!
I am really leaving now(!), but want to say a special New Year's "F**k You" to Palladian before I go. Yes, I do live at my mom's house (where he got the idea it was mom & dad, who knows), after being laid off and living on my own for my most of my adult life since turning 18. Paying off student loans and now working full time again for a national magazine, I estimate I'll be here at mom's, saving money and paying reduced rent, for at least the next 6 months. I'm obviously not complaining, so have all the fun you want, my dear Palladian.
Christopher Althouse Cohen said...
"[W]hat if [a movie or TV production] shot a scene [in public] with something inappropriate for younger viewers? A violent scene or (*gasp*) a sexually explicit scene? Would it be wrong to close off the street from public view and shoot the scene there?"
Yes, actually. For one thing, why are they filming a scene involving public sex in the first place? For another, if applicable law forbids public sex, why on earth would the presence of a movie production make any difference? If there is a general law prohibiting and fining public nudity in effect in Madison, Wisconsin, we all agree (I assume) that it is violated when someone is drunk and takes their clothes off. Alcohol presumably doesn't make any difference to their liability. Is it not violated if there are three cameras pointing at them, along with a director and a script? I thought the camera added ten pounds, not free license to violate the law.
Zachary Paul Sire said...
"I am really leaving now(!)"
Oh, go out, would ya? ;) Have good sex. ;)
Now, what if they shot a scene with something inappropriate for younger viewers? A violent scene or (*gasp*) a sexually explicit scene? Would it be wrong to close off the street from public view and shoot the scene there?
Yes. I don't care if it was gay or straight. These sorts of intrusions into public space are disturbing, and they didn't used to occur. I think about the only defense one could make is some sort of Carnival comparison. That doesn't make it right.
Nobody's even mentioned the commercial aspect of these events. Did anybody profit from "Up Your Alley"?
I'm not sure which group is more tiresome, the people who go to see "Milk" in order to show how tolerant and liberal they are (as opposed to going to see it because they want to see a good movie), or people who don't go to see "Milk" and say they their refusal to see the movie is their brave stand against political correctness and liberal Hollywood
I am not going to see the movie because
A) I have better things to do with my time
B) I have better things to do with my money
C) I lived in San Francisco at that time... one block off from Castro Street, which used to be a pretty nice neigborhood at the time. I was there at the seminal (snark) event.
and
D) There is nothing romantic or remotely admirable about the Gay Movement (snrk)at that time. It was full of a bunch of narcissistic and self indulgent sex addicted crippled personalities who abused drugs, their own bodies and the neighborhood.
E) I wouldn't piss on Sean Penn if he were on fire, much less contribute one dime to his income.
Did anybody profit from "Up Your Alley"?
I'm certain someone did, otherwise it wouldn't run. And I think a more accurate description of what goes on there is that it's outdoors, not that it's public.
But let me go look at the pictures again, I want to feel outrage all over again.
"Did anybody profit from "Up Your Alley"?"
The pharmaceutical industry? Wesson Inc? Preparation H? Hell?
Downey: "Everybody knows you never do a full retard."
Stiller: "What do you mean?"
Downey: "Check it out. Dustin Hoffman, 'Rain Man,' look retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Count toothpicks to your cards. Autistic, sure. Not retarded. You know Tom Hanks, 'Forrest Gump.' Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded. You went full retard, man. Never go full retard."
Sean Penn went full retard.
In several films.
Hell?
Heh. Leather Crotch Bridles 'R Us looks as though it probably profited as well. There's nothing more attractive than a less than fit man with a few leather straps wound too tightly around his body like the netting on a packaged ham.
Actually, I believe the event is sponsored by Miller Beer.
However, his turn as the murderer in Dead Man Walking did change me from anti-death penalty to pro-death penalty, so I do owe him one.
I meant to comment on this earlier. Thank you. I thought I was the only one at the end of that movie saying, "Am I supposed to be upset now? Did everyone forget about the beginning of the movie already?"
Actually, I think that's why Dead Man Walking works. It doesn't try to tell you what to think.
I'm anti-death penalty but that movie definitely made me less glib about it.
Getting here late, but I have to say that pogo should get some kind of award for his trolling here.
He managed (with a few allies) to completely change the subject of the thread from a movie (whatever it's virtues or flaws as art might be) to a discussion of sexual acts he finds distasteful and his obsession that gay rights =/= public sex of a kind he finds distasteful.
What's amazing is how everybody just followed along (this is my last post on this subject here).
I'll probably catch the movie on dvd but I'm not a fan of Penn (though he was great in Sweet and Low Down) or Van Zant (liked Drugstore Cowboy and To Die For (though Kidman was still a bad actress then), hated a couple of other things but I've mostly passed over his stuff though I've caught them in parts here and there).
My problem with Van Zant is the amateur hour vibe his movies give off, there's usually a cheap, dogme-ish look and too much of them seem improvised (and I mean that in a bad way).
Gee thanks, Mr. Farris. What this blog has always needed is a prissy and prunefaced schoolmarm ready to rap the fingers of commenters who stray off course. So I salute you in that effort, sir; you are clearly gifted in the field, and know how to color in the lines, and make the leaves green not purple.
I made a comment about why I had not planned on seeing the film much as the 1984 documentary The Times of Harvey Milk sated any thirst for that narrative.
Moreover, though Sean Penn may be a gifted actor, I have viscerally hated every single goddamned character he has played, including (and maybe especially) in Mystic River. (If I could kill a movie, that would be the one.) That disgust may be the intended effect, for he succeeds, but adding in his reverence for marxist dictators makes it hard for me to suspend disbelief.
Now I see Sean Penn as Harvey Milk, albeit done really really well, yet still I see Penn, and therefore ick.
My follow-up comment was meant to be a snide reference to the aftermath of Milk's efforts. A throwaway, really, that I thought no one would respond to. You can thank Zachary for turning that up to 11.
I have no desire to read this entire thread, having divined the essence of the war between Althousian gays & straights from a representative sample of comments.
I do respect the right to privacy in one's sex life and if, as Harvey Milk's wiki entry suggests, gays were forced into having sex in public places due to oppressive laws and the threat of eviction from their homes, that is very unfortunate and unjust. I believe our society has evolved since then to where the majority of people and even the laws allow more freedom of sexual expression, so long as it is not visible to the general public. Young children and their parents should not be subjected to the viewing of overt sexual acts, homosexual or otherwise, even if they happen to blunder into certain areas of San Francisco on "special" days.
A couple of additional points - first, it seems that every "gay" themed movie is worthy of adulation from Hollywood, whether it is actually a good film or not. Perhaps the Penn performance really is great, I will never know for sure because I won't see it. I object to the notion that any motion picture or acting role deserves awards simply because it depicts some political position that the left deems "good". The same thing seems to have happened with the formerly respectable Nobel prize, with it being awarded to those who criticize the internationally hated Bush administration - Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, and even Yasser Arafat. This practice undermines the value of these prizes and contributes to the cynicism of political moderates and conservatives.
Second, I must note that Palladian always manages to maintain his classy and refined demeanor no matter the subject at hand. Kudos to you sir, and thanks.
"Second, I must note that Palladian always manages to maintain his classy and refined demeanor no matter the subject at hand. Kudos to you sir, and thanks."
Me? Classy? Refined? Wow. It must have been the Krug.
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