March 31, 2006
"You'll pretty much say anything to stay alive because you expect people will understand these aren't your words."
The hostage point of view. We can't ask for more. We can imagine a bolder hero who would do more. But we should speak no ill of the person who does less.
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15 comments:
The bolder hero we imagine only lets down different people. Their family, for example.
A flag is only cloth, a bible is only paper and words are only words. She did what she had to do and that impresses the heck out of me!
I haven't really seen criticism of her, only questoning what was going on.
Personally, I think she did the right thing. She is not a soldier and not duty bound not to submit.
(Even soldiers have a duty to resist, not to commit suicide).
I imagine most of admire and maybe even wish to be like Nathan Hale but when the time comes we find that we are not made of sterner stuff. But we do have the necessary "hard men" to make up for the lack of patriotism or nerve that the rest of us might fall prey.
It's very easy to take the high and mighty stance when your not facing the possibilty of having your head sawed off.
I'm with Uncle Jimbo (unsuprisingly, but not just because I'm a suck-up.)
It's not a moral weakness to cooperate while under the control of people who will kill you or torture you. And she's right that she *ought* to expect people to understand that the words you speak are not your words.
Nor should she expect a sane person to believe her when she says she was treated well. (As someone other than me pointed out... her first statements were probably to reassure her family. In that sort of situation, even if I were raped daily and beaten, I'd say I hadn't been for the sake of those who love me.) She witnessed the murder of her translator, was kidnapped, forced her to make a video, and was held captive with a threat of death hanging over her for three months.
She shouldn't have to worry that some moron doesn't *get* that just because she doesn't say it.
And I don't think that big tough fellas with "how to survive captivity" training would be so quick to condemn either, even if it was their buddy kidnapped instead of a female journalist who hadn't had any of that preparation, because they've got a realistic view of what *precisely* the captive has to deal with.
gj, can't you be more understanding toward the LGF patriots when they just make crap up and then, like lab monkeys, fling their crap at everyone that walks into view?
Daryl, you fail to give a motive for these people who travel to one of the most dangerous cities in the world, coordinate to be kidnapped and spend three months in the captivity of their insurgants. It's not enough to say that they weren't politically aligned with the Bush administration on Iraq, thats a demographic that includes the majority of Americans.
source: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/16/iraq.poll/
Wickedpinto: You've thoroughly confused me. IIRC, John McCain was also compelled to make a video similar to the one Jill Carroll did. Does that make him less of a hero?
Regardless. I didn't call her a hero. I don't think saving your own life necessarily makes you a hero.
My point was that the bolder hero who in the same situation chooses to spit in the face of his captors and give up his life solely to avoid making a propaganda video isn't necessarily doing the most heroic thing, either. Just the most glorious.
Maybe I'm biased because I have a dog in the fight. But if my husband chose to lay his life down in Iraq, not to preserve opsec, not to put mission first, not to accomplish anything but simply so he didn't make a video that everyone would know was BS anyway, I'd be pretty upset. Maybe that's selfish.
A lot of this discussion seems based on the idea that some people believe things that hostages say when their captors videotape them. Of course nothing a hostage says during captivity (and often for some time after) can be taken at face value.
And IMO there's nothing dishonorable about appearing in a video and mouthing what your captors want.
Are there people who are stupid enough to believe what a hostage says?
Are their captors stupid enough to believe there are people that stupid?
I'm actually thinking the whole scenario is a meta-message. Captors to foreigners: stay out of Iraq because if you come here, we might kidnap and humiliate you.
Sarah: You're right. Fabrizio Quattrochi is a great example of what can be accomplished through resistance. I didn't think it all the way through.
I still think living to fight another day is honorable as well.
"Fabrizio Quatroci, for example, who wrecked the video that was made of his murder so it could not be used as propaganda."
Obviously, _someone_ thought it could be used as propoganda or it would have been destroyed and never seen the light of day.
Daryl, I didn't accuse you of making anything up. Your first message, the "let's try to see the nutcases' point of view" one, was putting forth the LGF crowd's position, I gathered from your phrasing. And they make crap up. It now appears perhaps you believe some of it, too. That's too bad. Why would Christian missionaries be in Iraq? Oh, obviously to be kidnapped! It's not like there's any other purpose, no volunteer work to be done. We're not at war with the Iraqi people. Peace groups have motivations to work with Iraquis rebuilding their nation. To assume (and insist others "admit") that they only reason is to help the insurgents shows that yes, you make stuff up.
daryl,
so the war is going much better than the big bad media is letting us see, but at the same time anyone who goes to iraq is "literally asking to be kidnapped"?
interesting disconnect from logic
and to anyone questioning this poor woman's "honor," i'm sure you'd be quaking in your pennyloafers if you so much as saw someone in a turban across the street
sarah-
I, too, hope that put in Carrol's position I would resist and Rambo my way out of the prison compound doing fancy kung fu moves on my captors. But I also realize that to do so, when concurrantly offered freedom in exchange for speaking in front of a camera for a few minutes, would require a large dose of PCP.
Despite how noble it sounds, there are only an extremely miniscule amount of people in the world who are willing to die for their country. I don't mean willing to fight wars for their country, I mean choosing a certain and gruesome televised execution over potentially disrespecting a small self-righteous sect of your contry.
Uncle Jim said it perfectly. The rest of it is just posturing.
http://crankyinsomniac.blogspot.com/2006/04/jill-carroll-video-price-of-freedom.html#links
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