It's quite the climb, and you have to get back down again. Or hang out in the blazing sun:
Chris sends this snippet from a book:
Here's the book: "1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus" (commission earned). I'm going to read that. I can't see me climbing those steep stairs in full sunlight, but I do want to read that book.
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97 comments:
Charles Mann IIRC. The followup, 1493 is also good.
We've only scratched the surface of pre-Colombian American
history.
The use of Lidar (shallow ground-penetrating imagery) has transformed the archeological world in the Americas, where vegetation and the slowly-crumbling artifacts are well-hidden. They are ruins of past civilizations that once ruled to a far greater extent, with far higher populations than we have supposed. The archeologists still keep finding big surprises, and that's exciting.
Very exciting times. As much as we know, it's not a hundredth of what's out there to find. Or a hundred-thousandth.
Seconding @Narr's recommendation. These books will open your mind - we know next to nothing in our time.
One of those random Spanish phrases sticks in my brain from high school : Visitamos las pirámides de Teotihuacán y los jardines flotantes de Xochimilco
Aztecs were remarkable in a way. No wheeled transport, no horses, Oxen, Cows, pigs, or chickens. No alphabet either. They had access to Cooper and Tin, but had no Iron. Yet, they built this extensive civilization.
I hope they had some water for the dog, he looks thirsty LOL.
Ann:
If you read “1491” kindly please inform us if the author discusses the extensive human sacrifice that was going on before the Spanish arrived.
We learned from Ken Burns, the American Indians wrote our Declaration of Independence.
Visited there in the 70s on an archeology field trip. It looks different.
I think I read that book and thought it was pretty good. If I hadn't concentrated on Egypt, I'd have done Mesoamerica.
I climbed up there in 1979-ish, and got caught in a thunderstorm on the top. Also meet a lovely California girl and we're still friends to this day.
Been there and done that in the early 1980s. A visit to Mexico City and the things around it (including climbing the pyramids) should be a bucket list thing.
"If you read “1491” kindly please inform us if the author discusses the extensive human sacrifice that was going on before the Spanish arrived."
Just because the conquistadors said something does not make it true. Yes, human sacrifice was practiced but there is a lot of evidence that the scale of it was highly exaggerated.
Just imagine it is reporting on Trump fans in the New York Times.
I try to imagine a 2,000 year time-lapse camera mounted from that vantage.
Yes, Begley, I was thinking of how many people climbed up but didn't climb down. CC, JSM
Long before the industrial revolution ... ancient peoples struggled with CLIMATE CHANGE! Extreme droughts. etc...
"Carbon"! (lol) not to blame.
Aggie, not LIDAR (Light detection and ranging) but GPR ( ground penetrating radar) and SAR (synthetic aperture radar).
I am familiar with SAR a bit, since 50 years ago NASA flew many airborne sciences missions over Central America using early versions. Its original design was intended to penetrate jungle cover to reveal ground surface details at high resolution. (The high resolution came from the very long "virtual" antenna created by the plane's motion + computer synthesis). But it was discovered that tweaking the frequency allowed shallow buried objects to be imaged as well. Like old ruins.
The crews on those missions were often accused by locals of being CIA or similar, especially during preflight ground work when they went into the jungles to place large plywood and sheet metal radar reflectors at known locations as reference points.
GPR is now a common tech used for surveying buried pipes etc. It's notorious in connection with the "mass graves" fiasco in Canada.
If you want to hear a remarkable and detailed history on the Aztecs, listen to the 8 episode podcast on "The Rest is History". It is stunning. It is about the fall of the Aztecs and goes into quite a lot of detail, starring Cortez and Co. The Aztecs were an astonishing civilization. And, of course, the Spaniards wanted gold so...that was that. Also- another round of episodes on this great podcast details The Fall of the Incas. Again- astounding what was there, what took place, and what might have been had either of those civilizations been allowed to continue to flourish.
Yes, and the Inca series features Tom Holland repeating the name of the Huenca people in his accent, which makes them sound like The Wanker. CC, JSM
1491 is a great read, and that Rest of History Aztec series is outstanding.
I'm sure many of us are wondering how that doggo fared climbing down.
The Aztec Religion is interesting:
"The Legend of the Five Suns: The Aztecs believed the universe had been created and destroyed four times. The current era was the "Fifth Sun," created in the darkness when gods sacrificed themselves by jumping into a fire. They believed the sun's daily movement depended on human sacrifices to keep it in motion."
"The destination of the dead was determined by how they died rather than how they lived. Warriors who died in battle and women who died in childbirth went to the sun's paradise. People who died of drowning, lightning, or certain diseases went to the rain god's paradise, while the rest went to the underworld"
I was at Teotihuacán a few years ago and was told that climbing the pyramids had recently been forbidden. Looks like they changed back, or your son doesn't mind the risk of a night in a Mexican jail, or maybe my interlocutor was a liar and might have been trying to sell me a "Special" behind the scenes tour.
It's an amazing place. One of the grandest archeological sites of the ancient world, no doubt about it. The thought of all the death that occurred on those steps makes it seem rather creepy, much like Stonehenge (although Stonehenge itself would be a minor temple on a back street of Teotihuacán, and not even a hundredth part of the mass of stone that was moved by human muscle power there.)
I have to say, Mexico City was one of my most enjoyable recent trips. The nicer parts of town where tourists go are heavily policed and packed with people until late at night, and we never felt unsafe. There are some really fantastic restaurants, and I know from a Mexican friend that the government and hospitality industry have worked very hard on food safety in recent years. I suffered no Montezuma's revenge at all, but did pick up a nasty cold on the airplane.
The western hemisphere was colonized by Asian indians.
It should be noted that while there is evidence of extensive Aztec-style human sacrifice at the site, the Teotihuacanos are an unrelated or distantly related people who preceded the Aztecs by hundreds of years, and were unknown to them.
This site is not to be confused with the Templo Mayor in downtown Mexico City, where the famous sacrifices by removal of the beating hearts of the victims were performed by the Aztec priests, and their severed heads were mounted by the thousands on racks called tzompantli for public display.
There is a smart, young couple that put out content under the name Based Camp. They did a show arguing that there was only ever one real civilization advancing humanity at a time, and that essentially it would pass the torch from time to time, with essentially the order being ancient Egypt → Mesopotamia → Greece → Rome → Charlemagne's empire → European kingdoms → British Empire → global spread. It was only ever Rome.
I bring this up because they said that their notable exceptions to their premise were Meso-American civilizations and ancient Hindu civilizations which were also able to produce extraordinary in complexity and scale, for their time, structures.
For an eyewitness account, read The Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz del Castillo. He was one of Cortez’s soldiers and tells extraordinary accounts of his encounters with a totally alien culture.
I was there back in the 80s. It’s very impressive, and the stairs aren’t difficult if you just take it slow. It was a stadium for people to watch a ball game, which was sort of like soccer, as I recall. You can almost hear the cheering of the ancient crowds, the shouts of the victors and the screams of the losers (they were often sacrificed.) If modern soccer did that it might almost be worth watching.
Who's dog is that? A handsome beast.
The Anasazi progressed through great leaps of intranational genocide. The "burdens" were diverse, equitable, and inclusive. However, the evolution of AI preceded their ethical Choices.
If you read “1491” kindly please inform us if the author discusses the extensive human sacrifice that was going on before the Spanish arrived.
Life in Europe was no picnic either. Execution, from everything from murder and robbery to witchcraft, heresy and even adultery (almost always women) was common. There was also almost constant war. 45% of the population of Central Europe was killed or fled during the 30 years war. The conquest of the Aztecs killed 200,000 natives and another 10 million plus died in from diseases, slavery, and the destruction of the civilization.
I'd be taking those steps just like the people in the photo, and probably use the same technique on the way down. Balance isn't what it used to be.
Reaper of mathematicians: He [Witold Hurewicz] tripped and fell off the top of a Mayan step pyramid during an outing in Uxmal, Mexico. He was said to be absent minded.
Ugly steep.
1491 is excellent. Some of it's archaeological predictions have held up, others have been superseded. 1493 is a different type of information, but also good.
"I can't see me climbing those steep stairs in full sunlight,"
Would definitely not be on my list of fun things to do.
Freder wants you to know that white people are evil.
Carry on.
As usual, you cant talk about anything in the past, even something 500-600 years ago, without the Libtards stinking up the place with their propaganda and politics.
I can remember the Gibson movie Apocalypto (an amazing film BTW) and all the libtards had to rush out and put on their historican hats. "achually..." because no one could insult the Saintly Aztecs by showing them to be ruthless and barbaric towards their subjects.
I recall the Mexica had a substantial taboo where misbehaving girls were required to sweep outside at night (this was considered quite the horrifying penalty) and that any spiritual pollution - regardless of how minor - was so grave that it could affect the harvest or kill all turkey chicks in the household if, say for instance, an adulterer entered the home.
Behave yourselves, or you'll be sweeping outside tonight!
Teotihuacan is Nahuatl, the principal language of the Aztec confederation. It has been translated as where one becomes a god, but not all scholars agree. What name the builders of that city gave it is unknown, like the builders themselves. Whoever they were, Toltecs perhaps, they left no written record, nor did any Spanish missionary leave a record of consulting anyone but Christian natives about the site, people who could only repeat the Aztec story.
Everything about the place is largely conjectural, especially the names of the various pyramids and platforms. The views shared above were taken from the summit of the Pyramid of the Moon. The large structure on the left is the Pyramid of the Sun. The street running due south from the base of the Moon-dedicated structure is the Avenue of the Dead. Very dramatic. And very sketchy. The names of these and nearly every other feature were recorded by Catholic clergymen in the mid-16th century based on interviews with locals native who I'm sure were anxious to satisfy their colonial masters as quickly as possible, since they were known to flog the demons out of their benighted souls at the least provocation. (Psst... I told Father Alverez the street is called the Avenue of the Dead. For the love of God, don't contradict me.)
The Toltecs are as questionable as the name Teotihuacan. They occupy a position in Aztec tradition similar to the Greek heroes of the mythical Golden Age to the post-Mycenean Greeks of the Archaic Period. To the Aztecs, the Toltecs were the paragons of every virtue and the knowers of everything worth knowing, therefore, by definitions, the Toltecs built that excellent city that bestows divinity on mortals. QED (though it may be just pre-Columbian bullshit.)
I can remember the Gibson movie Apocalypto (an amazing film BTW) and all the libtards had to rush out and put on their historican hats. "achually..." because no one could insult the Saintly Aztecs by showing them to be ruthless and barbaric towards their subjects.
It's a pity that Gibson's snuff films are rarely accurate. I think the main objection was that Gibson mixed up the Mayans and the Aztecs. The Mayan civilization (and btw, there is no evidence of mass sacrifices, although human sacrifice was practiced) was pretty much finished by the 11th century, 5 or 600 years before the Spanish showed up (at the end of the film there is a Spanish ship in the bay).
because no one could insult the Saintly Aztecs by showing them to be ruthless and barbaric towards their subjects
Apparently, you are offended by the notion that Europeans were ruthless and barbaric to their subjects, let alone the people they conquered.
Archeologists have tried to clarify the origins of Teotihuacan, but so far they haven't made much progress. The Spanish thoroughly dugs up the place soon after the Conquest in search of... well, take a wild guess... which pretty much thoroughly jumbled and corrupted what could have been learned from an undisturbed site like the Maya ruins discovered swamped in jungle vines by less gold-obsessed 19th-century explorers.
Freder, you never change. You have nothing interesting to say on any subject raised by Althouse except your rote recitation of the Socialist Rosary. Tell us, do you put on those blinkers every morning by yourself, or does the shade of Herbert Marcuse strap them on for you?
For the record, the Aztecs didn’t build Teotihaucan. Aztecs found it much the same as Chris Althouse.
Whoever the citizens of Teotihuacan were, they engaged in some epic long-distance trade. Many of the burial chambers with the pyramids and temple platforms are lined with sheets of mica (phyllosilicate) mined in Brazil. 3000 miles is a long way to carry something on your back.
typo correction: within the pyramids and temple platforms
Speaking of mica-lined tombs, the Hopewell Culture of the Ohio River Valley region (circa 100 BC to 500 AD) used mica in precisely the same manner as the Teotihuacanese (a term i just invented) except their burial chambers were enclosed within earth mounds rather than stone buildings and their mica came from North Carolina rather than Brazil. Could the Hopewell people be a colony of Teotihuacan, or a remote offshoot of that civilization? Who knows? Not me.
"Howard said...
One of those random Spanish phrases sticks in my brain from high school : Visitamos las pirámides de Teotihuacán y los jardines flotantes de Xochimilco"
I peaked at "come te llamas? Mi nombre es George. In my defense I only took a half year in junior high.
The ruggles mica mine in Grafton New Hampshire is still open for tourists and rockhounds. Had a blast there with the grandsons a couple summers ago. Some large books of mica can still be uncovered
I'm fairly fluent in Spanish, if all I have to say is, "Los legumbres de mi madre son los mas deliciosos en todo el mundo!"
One theory is that the Aztec, with no large animals for protein, survived and thrived via cannibalism instead. They called it "recycling" and it was part of their visionary sustainability efforts. Then the white guys came in and just wasted all the meat, like they do.
I used to tell my history undergrads that everyone has ancestors, and everyone's ancestors did shitty things to someone.
I always think that I never read books, but I did read and own "1491", so that's one book and counting. I'm what some call a "man of letters". Not books, but letters.
@bagoh20, If you've ever had pozole, be thankful that the modern recipes use pork...the other other "long pig".
Hassayamper said...
"The thought of all the death that occurred on those steps makes it seem rather creepy..."
Not to worry, Mark says it wasn't all that bad.
Long pig and meatballs was an Aztec specialty during the sacrificial celebrations.
Wonder if the Aztecs ever ran into the Polynesians, bags.
Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fate of Human Societies
"One theory is that the Aztec, with no large animals for protein, survived and thrived via cannibalism instead."
According to Bernal Díaz del Castillo (Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España, 1568), only the priests and the warriors were permitted to eat the sacrificial remains, which leaves the multitude of Aztec peasants protein-deprived -- not so good for all that hard labor that was needed to be done by someone suitably lowly. However, there was dog meat, which was highly favored by ancient Mexicans. It is believed all those half-pint pups from South of the Border (the Chihuahua breed is only one of nearly a dozen) are the descendants of Aztec "fryers", the most succulent of all.
"Wonder if the Aztecs ever ran into the Polynesians, bags."
I think that was Thor Heyerdahl's speculation and the reason for his Kon-Tiki raft voyage. There's little DNA evidence for Polynesian contact with pre-Columbian peoples, nor do folklore accounts from either side of the Pacific provide strong support Heyerdahl's thesis. Nevertheless Kon-Tiki made the trip from Peru to the Tuamotu Islands in 101 days -- that's almost 7,000 kilometers.
Watching leftists try to gear shift from Marx to Whiteness Studies and back to Marx again is kind of hilarious. Maybe you can use A.I. to shift Karl Marx from his German perch and re-cast him as Not White At All.
Why Commies Hate the 1619 Project.
I know, I know. You killed Trotsky in Mexico! With an ice pick to the head. And yet, he lives on, in the hearts and minds of really sad white Marxists, who haunt the internet.
You probably should have taken out his heart and eaten it. White Russian Fail.
Human sacrifice. Protein was scarce in the Mexican plains and unfortunately cannibalism was the only way to get enough protein. I love pozole made with pork. But the original version featured people as the meat. I can’t condemn the ancients for their practice, they needed to what they did to survive. Yea they practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism, but so would you if you had grown up in the same circumstances.
Performing human rites for social, criminal, cannibal, political, and climate progress. We've come a long way, baby.
Leftists just do their standard thing, whenever the subject is non-whites and anything even mildly critical - no matter how true - is stated then its "Well Europeans/Americans/Whites were no better/worse. What about that, huh? Huh?"
Needless to say when the subject is Europeans/Whites/American and its critical, there's no derailment to "What about POC's they were just as bad.What about that?". Nope it only goes one way.
Its always them stinking up every discussion with Racism. And getting away from objective discussion.
As to “they had dogs.” What the fuck protein sources did the dogs have? Protein was a limiting nutrient. They fought mock wars to get prisoners to eat to get protein.
"I was at Teotihuacán a few years ago and was told that climbing the pyramids had recently been forbidden. Looks like they changed back...."
I asked Grok, and I was told that it's forbidden to climb the Pyramid of the Sun (visible in the photograph at a distance) but you are permitted to climb the Pyramid of the Moon — "reopened in May 2025 after a multi-year closure."
"Whose dog is that? A handsome beast."
I believe that's a feral dog. It's not my son's, though I guess that's not obvious. I'm reading on Grok that the place has feral dogs and they interact with tourists and get food and water from them. "Most reports say they are not aggressive toward people. They’re generally mellow street dogs that have learned to coexist with the heavy tourist traffic."
This is my body this is my blood. Not mere symbolism, the host and wine transform. The Aztecs were not the only ones using cannibalism in their religion. I won’t criticize other ancient cultures for their practices.
"If you read “1491” kindly please inform us if the author discusses the extensive human sacrifice that was going on before the Spanish arrived."
That's a good question for Grok:
"Yes, Charles C. Mann does discuss human sacrifice in 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus, particularly in the context of the Mexica (Aztec) Empire and broader Mesoamerican cultures.
He covers it as part of his exploration of pre-Columbian societies, focusing on the Mexica/Triple Alliance in central Mexico. Key points from the book (based on reviews, summaries, and excerpts):Religious and cosmological role: Sacrifice (mainly of war prisoners, but also slaves and criminals) was tied to the worship of gods like Huitzilopochtli. It was seen as essential to providing "life-energy" to keep the sun rising and prevent cosmic catastrophe. Mann describes how this belief drove imperial expansion, as conquests supplied victims for rituals.
Scale and estimates: He addresses the numbers, estimating thousands of sacrifices per year (e.g., around 3,000–4,000 in some discussions) in a large population (tens of millions regionally). He compares this to European public executions in the same era, arguing they served similar political purposes (instilling terror, loyalty, and spectacle) and that per capita rates were not uniquely extreme in the Aztec case.
Broader context: The book notes that human sacrifice was not unique to the Aztecs—it had roots in earlier Mesoamerican cultures like the Olmecs, Maya, and others—but it was especially prominent and institutionalized among the Mexica. Mann contrasts this with other pre-Columbian societies (e.g., Inca practices were different, often involving other forms of ritual).
Mann presents this without downplaying the brutality but frames it within the larger portrait of sophisticated, populous, and complex civilizations. Some readers critique him for contextualizing or comparing it to European practices (e.g., executions), seeing it as overly relativizing, while others see it as balanced scholarship challenging simplistic "bloodthirsty savage" tropes.
Overall, it's not the book's central focus (which is more on population size, environmental impact, agriculture, cities like Tenochtitlan, and disease effects), but it is explicitly addressed in sections on Mesoamerican empires and culture."
"I won’t criticize other ancient cultures for their practices."
Man, what "righteous" BS, Lawnerd. I'm quite certain you would offer more than vigorous criticism if it was your blood and flesh about to be transubstantiated.
"The book notes that human sacrifice was not unique to the Aztecs—it had roots in earlier Mesoamerican cultures like the Olmecs, Maya, and others—but it was especially prominent and institutionalized among the Mexica."
We know very little about the Olmecs, not even what they called themselves, so I'd advise treating Mann's comments about the Aztecs following precedents established by other cultures with more than a usual dose of salt. Like Teotihuacan, Olmec is Nahuatl. It means rubber lineage , reflecting the only thing the Aztec knew about that very ancient people -- that they knew how to process Pará sap into raw latex, for the Ball Game, dontcha know.
Before reading 1491, read Bernal Díaz del Castillo, if for no other reason than his book is freely available. After all is said and done, Charles C. Mann is just another transformer of very ancient and very incomplete information into a superficially satisfying picture that pertains to some thesis he holds important to current times. It seems every historian would rather do that than compile verifiable facts, perhaps because verified facts are almost ideologically useless.
Diaz, on the other hand, saw it all firsthand.
"Protein was scarce in the Mexican plains"
Weren't beans and amaranth daily staples in their diet?
What about the domestic turkeys they kept?
Lots of protien sources are not being considered in these sweeping declarations.
Human, especially Child sacrifice was not unique to southern and meso America. It was practiced back as early (as can be attested through archeology) Shang Dynasty China, and Middle Eastern/Levant .
A form of human/child sacrifice has been established recent years in socialist regimes (i.e. Stalin's contrived famine).
Leftists and Islamists continue to push for the practice to this day.
Could the Hopewell people be a colony of Teotihuacan, or a remote offshoot of that civilization? Who knows? Not me.
It's not out of the question.
There is a major language group called the Uto-Aztecan Languages. It encompasses the Nahuatl language of the Aztecs, a.k.a. Mexica, as well as many tribes of the American West and Northern Mexico. These extended from the border northwest as far as Oregon and northeasterly as far as central Texas. Well-known tribes like the Ute, Paiute, Hopi, Shoshone, and Comanche are in this group, and there is evidence of long-distance trading networks between them. Turquoise from the Hopi reservation has been found in Aztec sites, and parrot feathers and other artifacts from southern Mexico were transported far into the interior of what is now the US.
It's thought that the Ur-Heimat of this entire group (including the ancestors of the Aztecs) was located in Arizona and New Mexico about 5,000 years ago, roughly contemporaneous with the Proto-Indo-Europeans who were starting their migrations out of the Ukrainian steppes into every corner of Europe and much of western and southern Asia.
There is evidence of human sacrifice and cannibalism at Chaco Canyon in northern New Mexico, which might have been the Athens to Teotihuacan's Rome.
There's even a language isolate like an island within the Uto-Aztecan sea, much like the Basques and their Latin, Celtic, and Germanic neighbors of the Indo-European diaspora. They are the Zuni of northeastern Arizona and northwestern New Mexico. Their language is unrelated to any of the Uto-Aztecan tongues, nor to the other main language groups nearby, like the Na-Dene (aka Athabaskan), Yuman, or Kiowan language families.
.
Italics gone?
I don't see how the Grokified interpretation of the work of a journalist reporting on (mostly) archeological research is grounds for condemning "every historian."
A form of human/child sacrifice has been established recent years in socialist regimes (i.e. Stalin's contrived famine).
Not to mention the Nazis (although, of course, you will contend that they were actually socialists too).
Scale and estimates: He addresses the numbers, estimating thousands of sacrifices per year (e.g., around 3,000–4,000 in some discussions) in a large population (tens of millions regionally). He compares this to European public executions in the same era, arguing they served similar political purposes (instilling terror, loyalty, and spectacle) and that per capita rates were not uniquely extreme in the Aztec case.
I appreciate (notice that assholes like Jim at, Questar and especially Meade) that even though you haven't read the book yet, you backed my contention that human sacrifice in Mesoamerica wasn't a whole worse than the level of executions occurring in Europe at the exact same time.
After criticizing me, Questar goes on to promulgate myths that have very little, if any, historical research behind it, including accusations of dietary cannibalism.
Leftists just do their standard thing, whenever the subject is non-whites and anything even mildly critical - no matter how true - is stated then its "Well Europeans/Americans/Whites were no better/worse. What about that, huh? Huh?"
Unfortunately it is true. No other ethnic group has killed anywhere near as many people as Europeans. Even if you whine, "what about Mao and Pol Pot", they were guided by Western philosophy (no matter how much you hate to admit it, Marxism is a Western European philosophy).
the whole point Feder is you're not "against killing" or "Against tyranny" - you're just anti-Christian and anti-white. That's why you want to derail from the Aztecs to those evil Europeans.
Is communism European? LOL. Its the philosophy of those who hate Christianity and Western Civilization. But hey look at all those Europeans through the ages who've raped and murdered and stole things. Why Crime is European!
Actually, the Aztecs were pretty easy going. Just give 'em a few people for their human sacrifices and make sure your tribute is paid on time, and they let you alone. Of course, they owned slaves, but it was a nice almost good slavery. Unlike that other kind.
Is communism European? LOL.
I don't why you think a simple statement of indisputable fact is funny.
This for Tim and also Mark and Questor. Despite your assurances of "Oh, they ain't that bad." Nearly all the Mesoamerican civilizations used Tzompantli to display the skulls of their conquered enemies and sacrifices. Racks of skulls. According to Castillo's eye witness account the Avenue of the Sun was lined on both sides with racks of skulls ,"higher than a man on horseback." and nearly a mile long.
I think it is a good thing that the most bloodthirsty and ruthless European culture was sent to conquer Mexico.
Freder Frederson said...
Is communism European? LOL.
"I don't why you think a simple statement of indisputable fact is funny."
I find that you think you're enlightened funny.
Most of the powerful ideas--good, bad, or it's too early to tell--of the last 500 years originated in Europe.
That includes the arguments here.
I don’t know why but I really like these photos, particularly that top one. Very good photo. And that dog, what a pose.
Some people go to Mexico and experience severe gastric distress, which has been dubbed Montezuma's Revenge.
Travelers to Peru sometimes experience mild gastric upset, which is called Atahualpa's Rebuke.
IIRC it was Brother Bartholomew de las Casas who reported the Spanish ill-treatment of the peoples of the New World, and shamed the honchoes into setting some rules.
Of course, the scandal is what remained legal.
@Rustygrommet: Show me where I even suggested "they ain't that bad".
Mark writes, "Yes, human sacrifice was practiced but there is a lot of evidence that the scale of it was highly exaggerated."
False. No evidence of that at all, just interpretation and baseless assertion.
@Fred Drinkwater: Your correction addressed to Aggie is mistaken. Her report is correct. It was LIDAR techology, not GPR, that led to these recent discoveries of densely populated Maya sites in Yucatan
LIDAR it is.
They are now using it in Amazonia, and discovering new things under the canopy.
Quaestor said...
@Rustygrommet: Show me where I even suggested "they ain't that bad".
You suggested that there was less human sacrifice than was written about by eye witnesses.
Cortez lost his first battle with the aztecs. When he finally did defeat them he found a rack with the skulls of his men and their horses on display.
Which brings to mind Cahokia and what rituals were practiced there.
@Rustygrommet I demanded my own words published here cited in support of your careless and false accusation against me. And what do you do? You just repeat yourself and ignore the evidence. That's dishonest as well as pretty damned lazy.
This is a list of my comments here, ordered by date, time and subject:
5/26/26 1:05 PM Subject: The name “Teotihuacan” isn’t in the languages of its unknown builders, nor are the names of its architectural features. No mention of human sacrifice.
5/26/26 1:06 PM Deleted italics test
5/26/26 1:42 PM Subject: Evidence of long-distance trade carried out by the builders of Teotihuacan. No mention of human sacrifice.
5/26/26 1:46 PM Subject: Typo correction. No mention of human sacrifice.
5/26/26 1:58 PM Subject: Possible cultural affiliation between Teotihuacan and the Hopewell sites in the Ohio River region. No mention of human sacrifice.
5/26/26 4:10 PM Subject: Bernal Díaz del Castillo observation of sacrificial victims cannibalized by Aztec priests and warriors, followed by a brief note about dog meat in the Aztec diet. No mention of human sacrifice being limited or exaggerated.
5/26/26 4:25 PM Subject: Polynesian contact with pre-Columbian Americas. No mention of human sacrifice.
5/26/26 4:57 PM Subject: A comment directed at Lawnerd about his refusal to criticize the Aztec for their practices.
5/26/26 5:36 PM Subject: Our scant knowledge of the Olmecs and their culture, and a recommendation of the eyewitness account by Bernal Díaz del Castillo. No mention by me of human sacrifice.
5/27/26 11:15 AM Subject: A demand directed to you, Rustygrommet, for a quote supporting your accusation against me.
5/27/26 11:18 AM Subject: A rejection of Mark’s assertion regarding human scarifice by the Aztecs being exaggerated.
5/27/26 11:24 AM Subject: Information regarding LIDAR directed to Fred Drinkwater.
I invite you to read each one. I've given you the timestamps, so that won't take much effort on your part.
To show my good faith, I offer this possible defense of your calumny against me. Perhaps you read Freder Frederson’s comment dated 5/26/26 7:20 PM and believed him, a cardinal mistake. Freder is a notorious distorter of facts and an untrustworthy troll. Here is a direct quote from his comment: “I appreciate (notice that assholes like Jim at, Questar and especially Meade) that even though you haven't read the book yet, you backed my contention that human sacrifice in Mesoamerica wasn't a whole worse than the level of executions occurring in Europe at the exact same time. After criticizing me, Questar goes on to promulgate myths that have very little, if any, historical research behind it, including accusations of dietary cannibalism.”
Any honest reading of any comment I've made here clearly demonstrates that Freder Frederson is full of shit. But that's to be expected whenever he displays his butt on the blog.
Questor.
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. i'm not sorry for history.
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