Weinstein has a lot of things he wants to say, and he takes the time spell them out calmly. Davidson is way more emotional — embarrassingly angry at women — to the point where I felt that he shouldn't be on the show at all, but he did give Weinstein a lot to bounce off from.
December 2, 2025
"So anyway, there are a number of you folks in what I would call the manosphere who are reaching some conclusions that I wonder if they're not going to be, um, more harmful than they are insightful...."
Says Bret Weinstein to Ben Davidson, in a podcast titled "Son Set in the Manosphere."
Posts
81 comments:
Is this Ben Davidson guy well known and I'm just out of the loop? I vaguely remember a lineman with the Raiders by that name, going back many decades, but for sure it's not the same fellow. Is he someone worth paying any attention to at all?
Weinstein is a treasure.
Interesting discussion although I had to bump the speed up to 1.7 because they're "slow talkers".
One thing i disliked is the whining about "I'm a nice guy, I do all the right things, and cant get a date. But some 'bad boy' can do everything wrong - and score. Women are blah blah"
So absurd and hypocritical. Yes, I'm sure you'll go out with a nice 250 lbs who does all the right things. And you'll never put up a beautiful women's crazy antics. LOL.
For sure the relationship between men and women is breaking down, and I think the women deserve most of the blame, as illustrated by the data from dating apps. Men rate 50 percent of the women below average, while women rate 90 percent of the men as below average.
They bitch when men hit on them, and they bitch when men don't hit on them, and the whole dynamic seems to be mirroring the famous Tom Brady skit from SNL: "Be Handsome", and you can summon all the harem girls and booty calls you want with the swipe of your thumb, and treat them like disposable dishrags; but if you don't fall in that top 10% of men, it's creepy sexual harassment even to speak to a woman.
Women control sex. Men control marriage. Women who want marriage had better remember that.
If you're concerned about people getting married and having kids you'll have to address economics. Its part of the equation.
As for women. We want women to have high standards. What father wants their daughter to marry a loser. I certainly dont.
The downside of that if women set their standards too high, that's not just a problem for them, it ultimately becomes a society problem.
If you're concerned about people getting married and having kids you'll have to address economics. Its part of the equation.
I'm in total agreement.
The most important thing we can do on that front is to cut immigration by 90 percent, and deport as many illegals as we possibly can, and stop any legally resident foreigner from collecting so much as a dime from public funds, unless it's for a one way ticket home.
"Oh, but what about the kiiiiids?...." Fuck the kids. If immigrant welfare leeches are having broods of children while living at my expense, that's even worse. Make them suffer real hardship until they get the hell out of here.
The most important thing we can do on that front is to cut immigration by 90 percent, and deport as many illegals as we possibly can
But then where will Leftist women find macho men, who strongly support the welfare state, and need to marry them for citizenship?
… but he did give Weinstein a lot to bounce off from.
@Althouse, you worked it out!
I will have to return to this interesting conversation. But I'm curious about the sculpture on Weinstein's desk.
After sampling Weinstein's thoughts about academia, I'm convinced the sculpture is a dung beetle rolling the earth.
Turns out, I'm right! Or at least half right.
An hour and a half? For two fruitcakes to drizzle about their "manhood"?
We want women to have high standards. What father wants their daughter to marry a loser.
Hence Jordan Peterson's emphasis, not exclusively directed at young men but very helpful to them, on not being a loser - on being a worthy man, the best you're able.
I don't think it's primarily - let me start again. I don't think it's young men's fault that young women perceive so many of them as losers. I put that blame on Girl Boss "feminism" and intersectional critical theory and all that nonsense. But young men have three options, I think, to cope with that situation: 1. Bitch about it and do nothing. 2. Become actively misogynist, maybe even to the point of physically harming women. 3. Affecting what they can in their own lives, so that it becomes clear to all that if some stupid woman is applying the label "loser" to them, it's obviously a "her" problem.
It's not in any way fair that the onus falls on men here. (In fact I think there is an accompanying onus on women, to be the most worthy woman they can be, but too few seem to see it that way.) But life isn't fair, and we are all limited in what we can affect and change.
It seems to me immigration policy can fix this. You can do a lot by fiddling with immigration!
It will be like a years-long "ladies night".
Pretty young women get in free.
Change the inputs in the market.
Davidson seems like a guy who is shattered by his recent divorce. He looks so hurt and sad/mad and I feel sorry for him, but when he brought up the Tate bros as examples of good masculinity, whoa.
Some women may be delusional regarding their expectations about men they’ll date or marry, but men are equally delusional about where they believe they should rank in the order of desirable men.
What good does it do to be bitter about not getting the woman a man may be attracted to, move on, there are other women out there who may suit him better.
Davidson talks about the loss of gentility, yet he sees value in what the Tate bros have to say about relationships between men and women.
His angry demeanor puts out red flags to women, avoid , avoid, avoid.
Davidson is way more emotional — embarrassingly angry at women — to the point where I felt that he shouldn't be on the show at all, but he did give Weinstein a lot to bounce off from.
Ann couldn't argue this point or anything that has been said on this show.
So she does what women do when confronted with possible responsibility.
It would be hilarious to watch Ann try to deal with hoe_math.
My grandson, second college student studying finance, brought his first girlfriend to meet us this weekend. She is also second year college student studying psychology. Why psychology I asked? Because she has anxiety issues. Praying for a break up.
As a side note: her mother is vegetarian.
The Tate brothers are two things: A rather disgusting example of masculine extremes of all the wrong behaviors, and a logical conclusion of decades of feminism. The Battle of the Sexes rages on. I have hopes.
Some women may be delusional regarding their expectations about men they’ll date or marry, but men are equally delusional about where they believe they should rank in the order of desirable men.
Not on the same scale at all per the studies we have all seen about how women rate men on dating apps - referenced in this very thread.
What I haven't seen, but might exist, is a study about how women and men rate themselves. Given that the above comment compares how women rate men to how men rate themselves, it could be worth looking into. Off I go to see what I can find.
This whole discussion skirts around the topic of harem/dominant male and pair bonding mating patterns.
Women decided to be Harem Girls. About 20% of men support them on this.
This causes the 80% of men to get shut out of everything meaningful in life. This is the pattern that caused war and degeneracy throughout history.
Christianity imposed pair bonding mating patterns on society and outcomes were overwhelmingly better for both men and women.
But here we are letting 70% of women and 30% of men vote for democrats and turn a generation of women and men into degenerate whores who live on an animal level with poor moral development and this has obvious deleterious effects on society.
Modern women are getting exactly what they created.
Some men are losers because of the genetics, especially the level 1 kind. Undiagnosed and unmedicated, they are desperado, running around being rejected, angry, narcissistic and masturbating. If they succeed in gaslighting someone into a relationship, they are the worst kind of partners and fathers. I hope the women wise up and learn to vet the character before procreating, although it might be hard when someone is intentionally manipulative. There are many childish, messed up, narcissistic women too. So they match up well with those losers.
RCOCEAN II said...One thing i disliked is the whining about "I'm a nice guy, I do all the right things, and cant get a date.
"Nice guy" is a brand of asshole. Someone who thinks treating women well means he deserves the head cheerleader. Meanwhile, he ignores the women who are in his league and would be happy to date him if he'd give them a fair chance.
"Incel" is almost entirely a phenomenon of young men refusing to date women they are an appropriate match for.
My buddy the Divorce Attorney says that anywhere from 70-90% of his business is from women wanting out of their heterosexual marriages. Why contract into a relationship with those kind of odds if you're a man?
Jamie said...Not on the same scale at all per the studies we have all seen about how women rate men on dating apps - referenced in this very thread.
Yes, forums designed to be shallow vehicles for casual sex reflect men's genetic desire to have sex with many women and women's genetic desire to have sex with choice men.
That tells you little about dating and relationships.
Hassayamper said...
For sure the relationship between men and women is breaking down, and I think the women deserve most of the blame, as illustrated by the data from dating apps.
About 70% or women and 30% of men deserve most of the blame.
It appears that I stand corrected in my implicit assumption - men's self-ratings tend to be about 1 point higher on a 1-10 scale than women's, with men tending to overestimate their attractiveness (compared with third-party ratings) by a large fraction of a point and women tending to underestimate their by a smaller fraction of a point.
It was an interesting exploration of matching-up behaviors. It can't down to women swiping right (or whichever direction is the "good" one) on men who might be aspirational for them because, essentially, why not? There is no cost to them for doing so, especially since men predominate on dating apps. And of course evolutionarily women are choosy.
But I will stand by my long-held belief that the sexual revolution has been disastrous for many-to-most women and has done most men few favors.
I, rightly, rated myself quite highly, before I got fat, old and bald.
Did pretty well really. But that was long before dating apps.
At 1:12 Bret comes out and says it: I would rather you have a drug addiction than a porn addiction.
"Christianity imposed pair bonding mating patterns on society and outcomes were overwhelmingly better for both men and women."
Monogamy predates Christianity, and exists in many cultures that have no Christian heritage.
I wonder if the battle of the sexes ought to be governed by sic utere tuo ut alienum non laedas, misuse of private parts being the cause of most of the trouble in the world.
"Mr. O'Connell, has your client never heard the expression sic utere tuo ut alienum non laedas?" -- "M'Lud, in the remote fishing village in County Kerry where my client lives, they speak of little else."
I'd suggest reading Thurber "Is Sex Necessary" and the cartoon series "The War of the Sexes" or whatever it's called. None of this is new.
I watched the whole video.
Davidson is way more emotional — embarrassingly angry at women -- to the point where I felt that he shouldn't be on the show at all, but he did give Weinstein a lot to bounce off from.
Projecting much?
Remember Walter Mitty? The story of a man who escaped his wife.
I stuck it out for the whole thing because I wanted to hear what secular non-religious people had to say on this subject. All I can say in response is that these guys are desperate to do ANYTHING rather than consider that traditional Judeo-Christian morality is a valid option. A vague reference to 'maybe people who go to church have a different experience' is the closest they are even willing to go to that. Weird, really.
Thurber was a feminist but of a more genuine sort than you find today. No illusion about what a woman can be.
Podcasts are a good cure if you don't like reading.
And vice versa.
Much on line about the mustachioed football start turned prolific, if minor, television actor who died in 2012, but I think that's a different Ben Davidson.
Jupiter said...
"Christianity imposed pair bonding mating patterns on society and outcomes were overwhelmingly better for both men and women."
Monogamy predates Christianity, and exists in many cultures that have no Christian heritage.
It exists in nature too.
The combination of pair bonding mating patterns and private property and decentralized religion building a virtuous citizenry allowed a large number of men that were previously discarded by society to participate in the building of wealth and allowed a large number or women that usually had to raise children in a harem situation had a provider around.
It was a combination of things that allowed the United States to lift billions out of poverty.
But since its creation forces have been attacking the foundations that US society is founded on.
Fr. Denis Lemieux said...
I stuck it out for the whole thing because I wanted to hear what secular non-religious people had to say on this subject. All I can say in response is that these guys are desperate to do ANYTHING rather than consider that traditional Judeo-Christian morality is a valid option. A vague reference to 'maybe people who go to church have a different experience' is the closest they are even willing to go to that. Weird, really.
Bingo.
I used to be a libertarian. But the foundations of libertarianism require a foundation of moral development that requires you to understand people who aren't libertarian.
To actually build a libertarian society you have to realize that about 5% of people just cannot ever live in a libertarian society. You have to kill them, imprison them or exile them.
Female libertines have a real problem learning why there are rules and shame in society and they skip from lets all share snacks level of moral development to everyone should be free to do what they want moral development.
We need to bring back shame.
There is also about 20-40% of people in society that will always have to be suppressed to maintain a libertarian society.
Marxists will always exist.
Thus in order to have a libertarian society you have to treat a large percentage of people in a non-libertarian way because they will always use freedoms you give them to attack your freedom.
You also cannot really have a libertarian society with libertines in it.
Libertarianism is thus self defeating.
Women are from Venus, men are from Mars, and progressives are from Uranus. On Earth, we reconcile to normalize a favorable juxtaposition of the sexes.
"sic utere tuo ut alienum non laedas".
Hmmmm .... Don't stick your dick in crazy?
I am not interested enough to bother watching, but it doesn't actually refute what people are saying if one of the people who has no problems getting women tells you that it's all in your imagination. The way a Pareto curve works, there will always be men who have no problems and wonder what the fuss is about from others.
It's like Bill Gates saying that he doesn't get why everybody doesn't just go out and make a billion dollars and poverty will end.
Weinstein can't or wont have Nick Fuentes on, so he gets as close to the trending hot stove as possible, with a less controversial aggrieved white male, Ben Davidson.
It's about staying current.
"... if one of the people who has no problems getting women tells you that it's all in your imagination."
Given that the sexes are essentially equal in number, the fact that some men have no problem "getting women" -- plural -- may well indicate exactly why other men have problems "getting" even one woman.
I've seen Weinstein (and his bro) on YT, and they aren't always wrong, but I had no idea who Davidson is until Weinstein referenced his work in science.
Can't invest 90 minutes in beta-talk, and don't want to look at the guy's lugubrious mug.
Oh, I get it. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.
Son Set in the Manosphere.
I wont get that AI implant just yet.
Muslims don't have these problems. Or, poor Indians, Bangladesh, etc. Buy a wife, cheap.
"RCOCEAN II said...
One thing i disliked is the whining about "I'm a nice guy, I do all the right things, and cant get a date. But some 'bad boy' can do everything wrong - and score. Women are blah blah""
This guy who goes by the handle Hoe_Math has put out some videos aimed at younger men to help them understand what is going on in relationships. This one is about 'Nice Guys'. I've watched a few of this guy's videos and he is actually a fairly deep thinker. He has some that are about broader social contexts concerning how different people get to different levels of development worldview-wise and what that means for society as a whole that are interesting.
Yes, forums designed to be shallow vehicles for casual sex reflect men's genetic desire to have sex with many women and women's genetic desire to have sex with choice men.
A lot of assumptions packed into that statement.
Yes, there are apps that are designed for little more than late night booty calls at best, or outright prostitution at worst. Or maybe "used for" is more apt than "designed for" in this context.
But there are other apps that at least claim to be suitable for people of both sexes to sincerely seek their life's partner and true love, and with increasing frequency these days, they find them online. My niece found her man on one, Bumble I think it's called, and they've been together for a decade and married for four years.
hoe_math and ShoeOnHead are both interesting. hoe_math says that was chubby, couldn't get girls past that first girlfriend, got buff in the gym, suddenly he was getting hit on all the time, whereas before, nothing, and he eventually got disillusioned in women, because he knew that he was the same person before, and it was just externals that drove the female species, no matter what they claim. That's his story, anyway.
I think that social interactions have changed so much that the old ways where normal guys could grown on women, and normal women could grow on guys, just don't have space to happen, and the dating apps are a symptom, not the disease.
Due to the focus and subject matter of media for the last couple decades, unrealistic expectations are poisoning the minds of potential mates leaving them as ship passing in the night refusing to slow down or even signal. A better boat is sure to come my way and naturally appreciate me at first sight.
Yes he was very civil until the end
I dont think its an act, for hundreds of years we abided by these rules
But these devices have liberated the id
I went over to YouTube after writing that comment and it affected the algorithm and I start getting these "how to" manosphere videos. Yeesh.
Jaq said...
I went over to YouTube after writing that comment and it affected the algorithm and I start getting these "how to" manosphere videos. Yeesh.
I am getting text messages on my phone from people who want to correct misinformation about Israel.
Marxists will always exist.
Yep. Doesn't matter how many countries attempt and then abandon this antiquated 19th-century delusion (38 and counting over the last century) or how high the mountain of corpses it produces. For as long as humans are stupid, lazy, greedy, and selfish, there will be socialists wishing to be kept like cattle and fed from the sweat of someone else's brow. The Marxist dream will never die.
Unless society takes harsh and definitive steps to exterminate it, as we should.
"I am getting text messages on my phone from people who want to correct misinformation about Israel."
Jeezum Crow.
Here is a scene for a movie for you, two friends get out of their car at a gas station during a long drive, and a stranger walks up to them and says "What makes you guys think we are spying on you through your phone?"
The "war of the sexes" (which predates feminism by thousands of years) is about reproduction strategies.
I believe the left is obsessed with limiting and/or stopping human reproduction. (Particularly with poor people). They want the poor to kill off their own children. They also want you to castrate your sons and make your daughters barren. The left does not care if they inspire suicide, homicide, or massive unhappiness.
The left is anti-humanity and anti-baby. And they want to bring in poor people from other countries as replacement humans. That's their big strategy. The left believes the world is Dr. Strangelove, and all of humanity is vying for bunker space.
Marriage is vital. Reproduction is huge. The left hides this from the young. While they plot ways to blot out the sun. Vote pro-life.
Tbe family was foundationsl to the republic and also as a bulwark against the state so they went about attacking all traditional relationships
Saint Croix @2:35, do you truly believe this about people on the left? I’ve been told here over and over that I am as far left as they come, YET, I married, I had FOUR children, I don’t want anyone to castrate our sons, and make our daughters barren.
My three daughters all went to college, married and had children even while having careers. I never discouraged my children from finding a life mate and marrying and having children of their own. Marriage and children are celebrated in my circle of liberal family and friends.
In my circle of friends my age, we all married and had children, some had careers and children, some were stay at home moms. We are all liberals. Our own children have married in their late 20’s early 30’s (some even younger) and given us grandchildren.
I have some friends who are conservatives, one of them has a daughter who is a lesbian and for a while her mother disowned her. Their oldest son who is in his late 40’s is still not married, another daughter who is in her mid thirties is still not married. The lesbian daughter is in a relationship. How can it be possible that my liberal friends and relatives have more married children and grandchildren that the conservative family?😳
Why haven’t you gotten married and had children, I’m guessing you’re at least in your late 40’s.
Economics does play a part which is a harder twist than political matters not to mention cultural
Weve had two three generations of certainly non traditional habits
As a matter of fact, there are a few men who comment here who are quite vocal about marriage and children, yet have not married or had children themselves. I recall a guy named Gahrie that Jamie knew, he passed away a couple of years ago, may he RIP. He would often say how the 19th Amendment should be repealed and he was quite worried about the birth rate. No marriage, no kids.
We have our commenter Bagoh2, same story in certain ways. No marriage, no kids.
There are probably more of these guys in the comments section.
Never heard of Ben Davidson and am not at all sure why his opinions should matter. Did he write a popular book or are his ideas and opinions being endorsed by a bunch of people (real people, not bots or foreign agents)? To the I'm about 1/3rd through it and so far he only references other internet personalities. Is his claim to fame that he's an angry divorced man?
Its kind of an intricate set of conditions
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3vPvYhXvLo9kW6tex2qn0l
Is this him
1. Bret Weinstein’s attitude really grated on me. It was obvious that Davidson was in deep pain from his divorce, yet there was Weinstein openly congratulating himself on his own views and his marriage - to the point of saying he might even shame Davidson himself. It might have been some form of “tough love” that only men understand (the whole “snap out of it!” thing), but I didn’t care for it at all.
2. My favorite relationship movie that deals with pornography is Don Jon (2013) (currently streaming for $2.40 on Amazon Prime). It was written and directed by Joseph Gordon-Levitt. I don’t know whether it’s realistic or more of a fairy tale, but it rings true to me.
I dunno, I sped it up to 1.6x and I still couldn't make it through. This guy is really angry, still. Can't get past it, and it's warping his ability to think critically. Weinstein can be annoying at times, but I thought he was pretty even here, willing to be uncomfortable toward his friend if he thinks it will help.
Heterosexual dissatisfaction with the unfairness and foolishness of the opposite sex has been a perennial element of human affairs. It is as if it were an important part of the basis upon which the human race survives.
Jaq--Formerly chubby guy gets buff at the gym, and is disillusioned with women because they are hitting on him now that he's in shape?
I'll take "Things that never happened" for $500, Alex.
That's his story and he's pretty convincing, but you are free to not believe him. I can't personally vouch for it.
He might be disillusioned with ugly fat women who want to date him, but c'mon.
The horrible dating apps are a huge contributor to this misery. Women put in minimum height of 6' and are then surprised that they can't find someone. Only 14.5% of the men in the U.S. are >6' tall. (In European dating apps this isn't such a big deal, as there's no particular cm height that's as obvious as 6 feet).
The problem is not that women prefer taller men. That's always been the case.
The problem is that because they're using the stupid apps they've algorithmically ruled out all 5' 10" or 5' 11" potential partners even though if they met them in real life they would seem plenty tall enough to a 5' 2" woman.
There are many other things wrong with the dating apps, but this is a really obvious and stupid thing.
"...potential partners even though if they met them in real life they would seem plenty tall enough to a 5' 2" woman.
There are many other things wrong with the dating apps, but this is a really obvious and stupid thing. ..."
Ah, Mate....... I'll just point out, it's a poor carpenter that blames his tools.
"Never heard of Ben Davidson"
I had never heard of him either, and I only watched about ten minutes, but I frequent Space Weather frequently. Apparently, it's his site?
Well gigo its not the apps fault what criteria you fwed jnto it
Glad I came of age in the days before dating apps. Yikes.
Kinda sad , really, for many. Men and women on dating sites can always be on the lookout for "someone better".
Gonna go out on a limb and say most commenters here hooked up from school, work, church, friends, gym.
Anybody here have a serious or semi-serious relationship otherwise?
Maybe a few got lucky with genuine bar connection but mostly the usual pre internet way.
Did meet a couple back in AOL, earthlink days who met on net and got married. He was from Russia, she from San Jose. Seemed happy, hope they still are.
And, guarantee you, lots of lonely single moms in 30's
"Inga said...
Saint Croix @2:35, do you truly believe this about people on the left? I’ve been told here over and over that I am as far left as they come, YET, I married, I had FOUR children, .."
That was a long, long, long time ago
Pre internet, and more importantly, pre-Trump and hating right leaning men. Less unjustified hatred back then
"We have our commenter Bagoh2, same story in certain ways. No marriage, no kids."
Also no divorces, no alimony, no child support, no angry exes, , and no regrets.
I have raised four kids in two relationships that each exceeded a decade. I have a thing for single moms, because I love kids and families. Just never found anyone I trusted enough to marry. I find it an overly difficult and challenging way to structure a relationship by today's rules.
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