I stare the nerve-wracked student in the face and say "Is using AI is like bringing a forklift to the gym when your goal is to build muscle?"
The student, knowing his grade in my "Logic and Language" course depends on how fluently and sensibly he responds to that prompt, answers:
"Professor, I think the analogy is seductive but ultimately misleading, and examining it carefully reveals something important about the structure of teleological language and the way we smuggle normative assumptions into metaphorical claims. When someone says that using AI is 'like bringing a forklift to the gym when your goal is to build muscle,' the metaphor only works if we’ve already stipulated that the exclusive, intrinsic purpose of 'going to the gym' is the autotelic activity of unaided muscular exertion. In other words, the analogy presupposes a purely expressive or ascetic concept of training: the value lies in the struggle itself, not in any extrinsic end. Under that stipulation, yes, the forklift necessarily frustrates the telos, because the telos has been defined as resistance against unassisted human tissue. But notice how question-begging that stipulation is. In ordinary language, when we say 'I want to build muscle,' the phrase is almost always instrumental rather than purely expressive. The speaker typically means 'I want the morphological and functional adaptations we call 'muscle hypertrophy' because they serve further ends (health, aesthetics, athletic performance, social signaling, etc.).' Once the goal is construed instrumentally, the normative force of the analogy collapses. A forklift would then be evaluated exactly like any other technology: Does it produce the desired physiological outcome more efficiently, safely, or reliably than the alternatives? The answer is often yes, in which case refusing the forklift would be a category error, like refusing to use a pulley system when building a cathedral because 'real stonemasons lift the blocks with their own hands.' So the metaphor covertly equivocates on the concept of 'building muscle.' In one sense (the expressive, autotelic sense), AI is indeed a forklift: it removes the very resistance that constitutes the activity’s internal good. In the other sense (the ordinary, instrumental sense in which almost everyone uses the phrase), AI is more like a well-designed training program, forced reps, or even anabolic steroids: an external means that accelerates progress toward the actual end-in-view.The deeper philosophical point, I think, is that technological mediation doesn’t inherently alienate us from a practice unless we have already romanticized the practice as requiring unmediated struggle. That romanticization is itself a historical and ideological choice, not a logical necessity. Aristotle could still achieve eudaimonia while dictating to a scribe; the medieval scholar could pursue contemplation while using an astrolabe. The tool doesn’t negate the human excellence unless the excellence has been artificially defined as 'doing it without the tool.' So to answer directly: No, using AI is not like bringing a forklift to the gym, because most of us are not in the gym for the sake of lifting weights as an end in itself. We are there to transform ourselves in certain ways, and the intelligent use of tools (including cognitive tools) has always been part of how human beings pursue self-transformation. The real question is whether we can retain critical agency in choosing when the tool serves the end and when it quietly substitutes a different end altogether. That’s a question of practical wisdom, not a logical contradiction inherent in the technology itself. Thank you."

99 comments:
Teacher: "I'm skeptical."
*the look*
Oral exams will terrify students.
The brick and mortar educational system is doomed. Same death spiral that has afflicted the Legacy Media. The brick and mortar system will survive for two or three decades because the rent seekers are financially and ideologically committed to it.
I never took an oral exam, but we had daily oral quizzes on declensions / conjugations in Latin class. You didn’t get called on each day, but Mr. Hill had a knack for identifying the slackers. It was a damned fine motivator to study.
Amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant.
I've sat thru PhD oral exams and although it might be tough to handle a boatload of undergrads in this manner, it's quite effective in assessing a student's knowledge -- and ability to think on his/her feet.
I had oral exams in some undergrad classes, Botany particularly comes to mind. Prof. Rasmussen would sit down and ask a series of questions about what ever we were covering at the time. At some point, he decided to put my wife-to-be and I together to save time, saying if one of you knows it, so does the other. Of course I went through my own oral exams for my MS and PhD, which, of course, are terrifying because to fail is to have wasted years.
A colleague has ditched term papers and has gone totally to blue book exams in her course. Probably easier than having 25 students do orals.
PhDs aside, we're generations removed from oral exams. I do think students would be terrified and completely thrown out of their comfort zone. They'd be forced to read their assigned work, forced to learn it. Some would do the work, and learn to love doing it that way. But that is a small segment. Some would figure out a new, multi-layered hack. I have no idea what it could be. I'm not that smart. But I do know human tendencies to work harder at finding a go-around than to do the actual work. The majority would simply stress out over all of it and try to do their best, many failing miserably.
Grok failed miserably. And Professor Althouse...as I think about it, you would have been very tough at this. Very tough.
There should be a comprehensive oral exam for each student to move to the next grade. AI then becomes a study tool for the student -- one that can quiz them and assist in assessing their own mastery.
Bonus: You're free to take the exam any time, even at the beginning or middle of the school year, allowing students to "test out" of the remaining material.
the metaphor only works if we’ve already stipulated that the exclusive, intrinsic purpose of 'going to the gym' is the autotelic activity of unaided muscular exertion.
Likewise, we'd have to show the purpose of the public school system has something to do with developing students.
Hardly anyone fails a PhD oral exam, it’s really just an opportunity for the student and professors to show off. A proctored written exam is a lot easier to administer than an oral exam, and also fairer to grade.
However, the time may soon come where success in the professional world depends on knowing how to get the most out of AI and knowing when what you’ve gotten from AI is good.
I’d fail your student, by the way, because building muscle is the extrinsic end in the analogy, not lifting weights as an end itself.
My self-assigned homework today is to look up all the words in the response that I do not know.
Of course, AI could be used to administer and grade the oral exam. Then you just need a proctor to be sure the student doesn’t also use AI to answer.
Never happen. It's racist. End of story.
Dean Martin: Well, Thornton... I'm only going to ask you this one time. Is the work that you turned in your own?
Thornton Mellon: I can't lie to you, Dean Martin. Yes, it is.
Dean Mellon: I'm satisfied. Phil?
Professor Barbay: I'm outraged.
Dean Martin: Gee whiz, Phil! I just asked the man if the work was his, and he said yes. What do you want me to do, torture him?
Professor Barbay: I suggest a comprehensive oral examination conducted by all of Mr. Melon's professors.
Thornton Mellon: Oral examination?
Professor Barbay: Yes. If you've done the work you say you have there should be no problem, should there?
As a math professor, this is easy. About 80 percent of their grade comes from in class exams, where of course technology (other than an old school TI 84 calculator, which comes with its own issues - I don't want to allow them but my department forces me to) is forbidden. So they either know it or they don't. The other 20 percent comes from homework, where they're free to cheat with whatever technology they see fit, but that's obviously reflected on their exam performance. Every semester I get a ton of students with perfect homework scores and like a 40% exam average, so they fail the class. No need to weed out the homework cheaters, they do it themselves. I tell them this, day one, and I still get a lot of them.
The journey to know-how is much more important than the destination. However, modern society teaches that only suckers put in the hard work follow the rules and do the right thing.
This isn't some semantic game where the clever use of liberal arts logic can justify or condemn any activity. This is your life. Use it or lose it.
Bar said...
TLDNR.
"D"
In my first and second year at USMA, we were expected to solve algebra and calculus problems on our feet, in front of the entire class. We were graded daily.
Other classes followed similar protocols. I do not know if the same teaching methodology is used today, but is was a great discriminator.
Three years into my brief career, we were sent to CASS3, a school that taught briefing techniques and staff principles. Again, we were graded daily on our presentations.
These schools taught me a lot, and the skills I learned served me well in life. Pity, it would be considered cruel to subject all to such treatment.
Oral exams will terrify students.
I was terrified when I had to defend my dissertation with my committee. It was actually a breeze despite all the fear mongering.
It turned out that my committee treated me as the expert in the area I investigated because I actually was.
As an undergrad, I had an oral final in a French class. I was well prepared and it went extremely well. The fear of orals is justified only if you are not prepared.
If I have a forklift always at the ready, why do I need to work out. The forklift will always be better and keep getting better as I age.
First Year of law school used to consist of daily random oral exams--the Professor Kingsfield model. It was terrifying, but it worked and you knew the material. You had to know it well enough to think on your feet about it and respond intelligently, or be publicly embarrassed.
I don't know whether that has changed.
"Across the country, a small but growing number of educators are experimenting with oral exams to circumvent the temptations presented by powerful artificial intelligence platforms such as ChatGPT."
Circumvent? This is so fucking stupid.
My daughter is putting together a project describing groundwater filtering. I have built large filter systems for orchards and have an idea about how it works. But I still typed in a basic prompt to get the basics on ground water filters. I have set up multi-level physical to reverse osmosis systems to generate hundreds of gallons of zero water a day.
In 30 seconds I learned shit about ground water filters.
Grok is better at teaching math than I am.
Teachers in our public schools are going to get replaced and it can't happen fast enough.
"autotelic activity"
AI really is a pseudo-intellectual.
The most used question right now with our kids:
"What did you just read?"
There will be a lot more emphasis on reading comprehension for a while in education. The true skills is going to be vetting and processing information.
Oral exams can only improve job candidates' interviews.
Humperdink said, "Oral exams will terrify students."
I recently read that students at America's top schools claiming disabilities is pushing almost 40%. The snowflakes can't handle what's expected of them now.
@Kevin, I remember Dean Martin. Palled around with Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis, Jr. Sang some.
Why not just go back to the blue book? Simple! Drop your phone in a box at the door, get out your ink pen, and get to it.
Orals makes sense in some areas of study, less in others. My closest friend is an associate at Duke. I grill him about this often. How do you know your quizzes and examines are fair, say I. Any from of examination that is vulnerable to cheating isn't fair, not in the least -- not to the subject, the university, least of all to the students, especially those who cheat.
My advice: Bring back the blue books. Use proctors and surveillance, think of Frank Oz in Spies Like Us. Lastly, construct examination room that function like Faraday cages -- sever the cheaters from AI.
I look forward to seeing the oral exams for long division and algebra.
Oral exams are great to test depth of knowledge on specialized topics for small advanced classes. But we have standardized testing for a reason, which is to test across a cohort of students for retention of material in the syllabus. It won't work for engineering and science, problem solving, or anything course where it's important for the educator to know whether or not their methods are working.
If the goal of the test is to sniff out users of A.I., then you've already failed as an educator.
Humperdink said...
Oral exams will terrify students.
I expect in many cases it will terrify the teachers more.
It seems likely that Althouse would pass such an exam. If she manages to keep the examiner awake of course. A major risk of this approach.
Once in grade school 6th year I think my parents were pulling me from school to travel before the end of term exams and my science exam was oral in front of the class. Me alone and my exam served as review prep for the rest of class. I was pretty mad. I got a low A but would have done better on the written…
I did an MA in Business Administration in the 70s. One of the requisites for graduation was a comprehensive exam. Given twice a year it consisted of 8 questions. 4 in the AM on any general course in the business program and 4 in the PM on any concentration courses. About a 40% 1st time pass rate.
Answers handwritten in bluebooks. Questions were like "Discuss Quality"
I took the exam assuming I would fail and 1st time was just practice. I decided that I would completely fill a bluebook with each answer, no more, no less.
I went home knowing I had failed. Imagine my surprise when I found I had gotten a 76, 75 was passing.
That answer above sounds like the meaningless bullshit I filled my bluebooks with.
After I retired I got a gig teaching as an adjunct professor at the local B-school. I didn’t need the money but one of the things I enjoyed most during my career was mentoring bright, young staff. It’s very easy to write exams that are wholly out of touch with business realities, for instance asking questions on exams that any reasonable person would look up online in 10 seconds (e.g., what is the definition of “cost of money”). I wrote my exams to be open notes, open textbook, open laptop, cell phono on. It isn’t easy, but if you’re any damned good then you can do it. Knowing the definition of the cost of money doesn’t mean you know when you have to worry about it. Write a question that the student will get wrong if he or she forgets to apply the principle.
@Joe Bar: Googling shows USMA is West Point. However, CASS3 auto-corrects to CAS 3, which is a British programme for housing for recently released prisoners.
Not a terrible thought. Harder to do for math.
I started to read that block of text and my eyes glazed over after the first sentence. AI writing is so wordy and unnatural. I can't deal with it.
The student stated…
“Under that stipulation, yes, the forklift necessarily frustrates the telos …”
If the purpose of language is clear, concise communication, then I’d say the student’s whole response frustrates the telos.
Excuse me, but there's a very good reason to have forklifts, as well as learning how to use them. Your ability to lift 100 pounds (metaphorically speaking) won't mean squat if the situation at hand requires moving 10 tons of material and getting it done in ten minutes instead of ten weeks or hiring 100 guys to do it.
This isn't just a hypothetical observation. Lately, I've been using various "AI forklifts" to do that exact equivalent. As a system designer/developer, I am now building, testing, and implementing various application modules in hours or days that used to take teams of programmers weeks or months.
And instead of being the death knell for all coders, the good ones are "learning how to drive an AI-forklift" by becoming AI system prompt engineers, which are now commanding $200K+ salaries. So my advice is, regardless of what your field is, learn to drive an AI-forklift.
And any instructor who discourages or actively punishes that new skill is committing educational malpractice. Luckily, that kind of instructor will be forklifted out of a job soon.
I've been retired from teaching for a few years, but am aware of how AI is challenging my former colleagues.
I don't understand the problem, just give in-class assessments. Oral exams would take so much time, and as Aggie pointed out, doesn't led itself to all fields.
Also, modern students would need a paper trail and documentation to support any points that were deducted.
In physics, homework is for practice, and doesn't count for much in the overall grade. Ask AI, ask a friend, ask your parents, it doesn't matter. The assessments are taken in class, with a calculator, but no phone, tablet or laptop.
Quaestor said...
" Lastly, construct examination room that function like Faraday cages -- sever the cheaters from AI."
I have a friend who teaches at a Massachusetts university occasionally. About 10 years ago, he had concerns about this problem, and I pointed out that cell phone jammers were available from Alibaba, or Chinese sources, but they were illegal (bad news if the FCC catches you, but we used them a lot in Iraq)
I know he tried it at least once. I'll have to ask him if he's still using it.
Aristotle could still achieve eudaimonia while dictating to a scribe; the medieval scholar could pursue contemplation while using an astrolabe. The tool doesn’t negate the human excellence unless the excellence has been artificially defined as 'doing it without the tool.'
"Or...or, is the floor on the shit?" is what Kierkegaard would say."
I found oral exams a lifesaver, in the first grade! I was a newly arrived Army brat, and was enrolled in a British school in Lima, Peru, where the Peruvian history and geography subjects were taught in Spanish. When I arrived in Lima, I knew nothing of that language. Fortunately, the exam was to be oral, and the questions and answers were written on the board as the class went along, and were to be copied into your notebook each day. Spanish is phonetically very regular, so I memorized each question and each answer, confident I would be able to recall and recite the answer when I heard the question, even though I had no clue at the time what either one meant. Aced it!
Historically, human language has been spoken, not written. The introduction of written communication has enabled great wealth even as it has insinuated a cluster of moral hazards into the resulting civilization. Hope it all works out okay.
I just wonder where this piece of sophistry came from. There's switch in the middle of this article which allows it to suggest that the end of getting stronger might be achieved with a forklift, hence the metaphor would be invalid. The switch comes in this sentence. "A forklift would then be evaluated exactly like any other technology: Does it produce the desired physiological outcome more efficiently, safely, or reliably than the alternatives? The answer is often yes... " A forklift never produces the desired outcome of a trip to gym but it does often produce the desired outcome of more efficient and safer lifting in a warehouse envirinment. It is, indeed, a tool to be evaluated in terms of its effectiveness like any other tool as the essay goes on to explain at length. But the argument by now has veered completly off course. The question was not: should we use tools appropriately, but it was: is the metaphor accurate. Is a forklift used inappropriately when it is used to do power lifting in a gym in place of the person doing their own lifting? And the forklift is inappropriate because the person will not achieve their goal by using the forklift in place of their own muscle. But this argument is not carried out to a conclusion and, in its place, there is a verbose discussion of the importance of using the right tool for the actual job.
Hence, I would say that if the goal of the essay was to fill a sheet of paper, it is successful. If it was to construct an oraganized argument, it deserves an F.
And I think Althouse knows this and I wonder where she found it. Some example of how to win in court?
The corrupt left opened the door to bad education; degraded standards, unruly classrooms run by unruly students, sex and race obsessions that have no place in any classroom, participation trophies, etc..
Rocco said...
"@Joe Bar: Googling shows USMA is West Point. However, CASS3 auto-corrects to CAS 3, which is a British programme for housing for recently released prisoners."
I miss typed. It's CAS3, Combined Arms Staff Services School. It was taught at Ft. Leavenworth.
"Every semester I get a ton of students with perfect homework scores and like a 40% exam average, so they fail the class. No need to weed out the homework cheaters, they do it themselves. I tell them this, day one, and I still get a lot of them."
My experience exactly (though I don't have the heart to fail many students, but nowadays a C or D is sufficient punishment). Also agree with Randomizer that pen and paper is just as good as oral, assuming you can monitor students to make sure they are not getting answers from some other source. Oral exams also don't really work for technical fields involving problem-solving.
The only oral exam I had was just before graduating college. I remember being quite nervous, though I did fine. Since I am in a technical, quantitative field, the exam didn't really test much other than my ability to think on my feet.
Wildswan's comment at 9:02 touches on the point that most troubled me about Grok's answer. Almost imperceptibly, Grok rejected the premise of Althouse's question, and instead answered a question in a way that would paint AI in the most positive light. It made the switch somewhere around here in its monologue: "Once the goal is construed instrumentally, the normative force of the analogy collapses."
That should worry us all. Grok overlooked -- or ignored or rejected -- the question of whether the positive human gain of going to the gym to develop human muscle would be lost if a forklift did the work instead, and moved on to answer whether having the forklift do the work instead is a good or bad thing. It's almost a given for Grok that human muscle development is not a goal worth serious consideration, for Grok, anyway. This should trouble us all, and trouble us most for our younger generation that now relies upon AI not just for quick answers, but for its wisdom.
I have heard secondhand stories from education that makes me think perhaps the biggest threat to student learning from students using AI is in the essay. Students use AI to churn out essays on any particular topic. Professors can somewhat reliably tell a student used AI by comparing the submitted essay to an a writing sample he or she produces, in class, in the beginning of the semester. While this doesn't really apply to the hard sciences or more technical fields, nothing trains a student's mind on a subject like having to write an essay on the subject. It forces structured and deliberative thought on the subject.
Beasts of England said...
“amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant.”
Beasts, our Latin instructors must have used the same book. Amare was the initial first conjugation verb I was exposed to as well.
And there’s this scene from The Life of Brian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjOfQfxmTLQ
I did two oral exams in graduate school- one on my original research proposal and the second was the defense of my dissertation. The first one, done at the end of my third year was a bit intimidating but the second was fine though 75% of the time was spent on a tangent that was completely unrelated to research project itself- the panel either really didn't understand a basic concept or were just testing me to see if I did- I still don't know which it was.
I don't think oral exams are a bad option, but I think they're testing for two things -- substantive mastery and glibness -- and you can have one without the other. I attended an engineering college, and from my experience, there are an awful lot of people with excellent subject matter mastery who would be at a total loss in an oral exam. That's a skillset that's pretty much orthogonal to technical competence in the subject matter. The people who designed the curriculum were well aware that (a) the world is full of people who mistake glibness for understanding and (b) the decision makers on critical design or infrastructure projects are likely to be highly verbal MBA or lawyer types with negligible competence in the relevant engineering or other technical aspects of the project, so they required us to take courses on how to communicate technical concepts to people without a technical background. They knew engineers might someday be in a position where they have to persuade their bosses that something is dangerous, while some slick verbal type is very persuasively arguing that it's no big deal, and they didn't want their graduates totally disarmed in the fight between words and reality.
But oral exams would have been putting the cart before the horse. Oral, on-the-spot defense is a separate skillset.
Oral exams from Back to School: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yec9xYJxpE
If you tested 100 people who majored in math last year, how many of them could explain what a logarithm is without looking it up? Or, how many of them could divide 1505 by 13 with just a pencil and paper? Tools are very powerful but they can be crutch that makes the mind weak.
I'm with the critics here--the long-winded answer from AI was mere unconvincing wordplay.
Glibness is the downside. Oxford and Cambridge did away with oral exams for the most part over a century ago, but glibness is still a hallmark of Oxbridge.
American students and faculty aren't ready to go all the way over to oral exams. We'll probably have more exams with the trusty old blue books. Probably more written quizzes along the way too. Will that mean more hours of class each semester? Maybe. Otherwise quizzing will cut into lecture time. In any case, there will be more work for the TAs. Almost certainly without more pay.
@Yancey at 9:37
That sounds strikingly familiar to my experience.
Two thirds of my oral defense was spent explaining the stepwise regression analyses I used. When I was hesitant to get into details, one of the committee members said, "You're the expert. Educate us".
My defense of the proposal was a lot more difficult. What I learned (and kept secret as we are obliged to do) is that once your proposal is accepted, you are pretty much assured of being awarded a doctorate. That is, unless you really screw up your data collection and analyses.
"Yancey Ward said...
If you tested 100 people who majored in math last year, how many of them could explain what a logarithm is without looking it up?"
I would guess around 10%-20%.
"Or, how many of them could divide 1505 by 13 with just a pencil and paper?"
95% plus.
Oral exams have a secondary benefit: You can fail people based on their race ... so if you want to resist, you can for example just give white people lower marks than blacks, based on your subjective "grade" of their oral presentation.
Let's get real about what they want.
Let me repeat. The brick and mortar school system is doomed by the AI/robotics revolution. It will continue to exist in a sort of museum format because of the massive rent seeking structure built to perpetuate it.
"Maynard said...
@Yancey at 9:37
That sounds strikingly familiar to my experience.
Two thirds of my oral defense was spent explaining the stepwise regression analyses I used. When I was hesitant to get into details, one of the committee members said, "You're the expert. Educate us".
My defense of the proposal was a lot more difficult. What I learned (and kept secret as we are obliged to do) is that once your proposal is accepted, you are pretty much assured of being awarded a doctorate. That is, unless you really screw up your data collection and analyses."
Your major prof has a lot invested in you by the time you get to the thesis defense, it doesn't look good for them if you flunk, and he/she/it should be doing everything xi/xer/xem can to make sure you're ready. But it does happen. A fellow grad student under my professor failed. IIRC, he wanted her to wait, but she had a new job she wanted to get to. Being a modern woman, she blamed the old boys network.
"Shouting Thomas said...
Let me repeat. The brick and mortar school system is doomed by the AI/robotics revolution."
Which sales pitch do you think sounds more appealing to parents who are upper middle-class and up?
Our School uses cutting edge AI technology to educate your child. The AI system fully monitors your child's educational progress and gives appropriate feedback individualized to your child's needs. It provides additional support for any areas your child might be lacking in as well as supplemental opportunities for areas that your child excels in to maximize their growth potential.
Our School is comprised of educators who are skilled and passionate about education. All our teachers are highly educated. In addition to being experts in their individual fields all our teachers have demonstrated a breadth of knowledge to be able to be responsive to your child's particular areas of passion and talent. In addition your child will be surrounded by other children of intelligence and curiosity.
I also wonder what the elite K-12 private schools are doing currently regarding AI.
There was a time when only a small percentage of people went to college. They were selected from the very wealthy and the very bright. And most of them were quite successful in life. From this it was concluded -- not surmised, not hypothesized, concluded -- that if everyone went to college, everyone would be quite successful. Seems legit.
Oral exams and handwritten closed book exams are the solution. They aren’t popular with professors because they are more work to grade.
Short answer: yes
I've got no problem with oral exams, other than they either take a LOT longer to give, or do a much poorer job of covering teh material, than does an in class, hand written, exam
But I guess the required "disability accommodations make those useless, too
Douglas B. Levene said...
Oral exams and handwritten closed book exams are the solution. They aren’t popular with professors because they are more work to grade.
Handwritten exams are easy for the professor to grade: he assigns the grading to the TAs
Build a simple laptop computer with ~1990 level of capability. No ports for internet access, no wifi, just a WordPerfect level of performance. Issue one to each student as he or she enters the exam room, with the essay or test questions already present in the document. Anyone seen opening a phone fails immediately. CLose the document at the end of time allotted.
Easy to grade (no cursive to decipher).
Left Bank of the Charles said...
I’d fail your student, by the way, because building muscle is the extrinsic end in the analogy, not lifting weights as an end itself.
A statement by LBC that I entirely agree with
I've been working this morning on updating my book descriptions on Amazon. I could sit and think and polish for an hour or two and get something I am satisfied with but not in love with.
I gave Grok the current descriptions and said "rewrite for Amazon using SEO. Make it sell" It gave me descriptions that I liked but that needed some light editing. Probably saved me a couple hours.
OTOH, the other day I was having a discussion about KFC and how they sold as a menu item before there were Kentucky Fried Chicken stores.
In my youth, in the DC area the Tops Drive-In chain used to sell KFC on the menu. Someone denied it so I asked Grok. Grok said there was no evidence of it. It took me a couple minutes of regular search to find various pictures (Like a huge Tops sign with a KFC bucket on top) to prove my memory was right.
From Grok: There is no record in KFC corporate history, franchise lists, or local Washington Post/Tops advertising from the era that Tops ever had a licensing agreement with Colonel Sanders or sold the official “Kentucky Fried Chicken” product with the 11 herbs and spices.
Wikipedia says Grok is wrong. So does this photo from
https://www.historicfairfax.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/HFCI53-2007.pdf
DO NOT TRUST GROK. If it misses something this simple, what else will it miss?
John Henry
Several thoughts:
1. As someone else mentioned, the extra-time crowd may have difficulties.
2. To add onto Achilles ref AI instruction: Yes, the individualized AI instruction pod would obviate cheating.
3. Someone is going to claim their poor scores on orals were awarded because of their sex, gender, race, accent, political beliefs, etc. Maybe they can be done behind a curtain like orchestra auditions? With a voice anonymizer to boot?
4. Anonymized blue books would be a relatively cheap solution. The infrastructure should still be there, no? CC, JSM
Hand-written exams in the presence of a moderator/observer?
What happened to sitting at a desk in a big auditorium for 2 to 3 hours taking a test with no outside aides?
Blue books and oral exams. Oral responses should be in the classroom and on a regular basis and be the basis for part of the grade. As a final exam, it's only workable with small classes or advanced degree programs. Midterms and finals should be bluebooks. The student may bring pens or pencils into the room. Nothing else.
Vault: "Which sales pitch do you think sounds more appealing to parents who are upper middle-class and up?"
The UMC+ parents know exactly what sort of people wind up as passionate skilled private-school teachers. Many of the parents had such teachers. Many of the parents know, either consciously or subconsciously, that they are the same sort of people. A lot of the parents would go for the AI school. CC, JSM
With regards to the 'ai' response - it builds on a false premise to dispute the fork lift metaphor: people go to the gym to build their bodies. Kids do NOT go to school to build their minds. They go because the have to.
Ref: my comment at 8:32. My exams all used blue books but I was not completely happy. One of my students was bright enough to earn an A or a B, but he had a problem. He was a foreign graduate student working on his MBA, and his native language was Arabic. His verbal command of English was excellent, and his keyboard skills were as good as anyone’s, but he could only complete about half of an exam in the time allotted. When I read his blue book I realized that he was not writing his letters, he was drawing them. I met with university staff to discuss ways to arrange extra time for him, only to be told that I could not legally do do without a medical justification. Very unfortunate situation.
Althouse--I suggest that you should prompt that "student" to cut out the bullshit and state the premise in clear, understandable language. Using 1/3 of the words of the original.
My own take is that AI is just another tool that college graduates — like people who never went to college! — can and ought to use out in the real world. Professors should assume the use of AI and adjust the syllabus and their pedagogy appropriately.
I’m thinking now of lawyers, and even judges, who use AI apparently without awareness that today’s AI tools can simply make things up. I think it’s okay to use AI to produce briefs, but only if one is trained to Shepardize the citations and make sure that the AI tool didn’t make them up or (deliberately) misinterpret what the caselaw actually says.
My analogy comes from forestry. It’s as though the people training lumberjacks and smoke jumpers deplore the use of chainsaws and forbid their use in classroom settings instead of training how to use chainsaws safely (with chain brakes and other anti-kickback safety devices, for instance).
Why oral exams over and in class written exams on paper? Easier and quicker to fairly grade and some kids would be intimidated and I’m sure teachers are biased towards some students.
I agree with Greg at 11:38.
The absolute worst aspect of being a TA was grading written essay, exams and term papers. It is shocking how poorly students wrote over 40 years ago. I suspect it is much worse today.
"I pointed out that cell phone jammers were available from Alibaba"
Jammers are illegal because they broadcast RF interference. A Faraday cage, however, is entirely passive and unrestricted by FCC regulations. Confiscating devices works just as well, but would require invasive measures like TSA body searches or expensive scanners. Building a "Faraday" testing room would be expensive upfront with negligible costs going forward.
Big Mike: ref your Arab letter-drawer: weren't there typing rooms for exams at your university? There were at mine in the mid-late 80s. CC, JSM
When I was adjuncting in the history department, I gave mid-term and final exams that included written essay questions, to be answered in bluebooks.
History courses were 'writing intensive,' and I had nothing like a TA--it was all on me to decipher and grade.
It sucked, and I only did three sections over a span of about fifteen years. At least it confirmed my decision not to become a teaching prof. Even with rank and helpers, it's too much work IMO.
That was before smartphones and AI and all the implements of torment we have now of course.
So, Grok is baffling them with bullshit. Who woulda thunk it?
@john mosby, if there were, I was no made aware of them.
DO NOT TRUST GROK. If it misses something this simple, what else will it miss?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I'm thinking a human could search the Internet at some length and not be able to find definitive proof of Tops selling KFC. I didn't find the link you provided when I searched for "Tops Restaurant Selling KFC" on google. Google's AI also denied that there was any such connection.
Maybe it's because no one in those days abbreviated it as "KFC", at least in written materials.
This is the sort of thing that might require a dive into newspaper microfilm archives for some Eyeball 1.0 analysis.
Anthropogenic Intelligence (AI)
On the other hand, using a textbooks books does most of the work of studying and so is to handicap the student's initiative and self starting. The greater part of studying is to supplement the thought of the main sours, extract and organize the ideas then judging their relative worth. Textbooks do all this leaving the student with rote memorization.
Real learning comes when the student is ready and has incentive to think about it. Schooling is about shoving stuff in the students face at the convenience of the teacher and school.
And these days even more schools inculcate their students with "school helplessness".
In spite of the fact that schools exist for the sake of education, there is many a school whose pupils show a peculiar "school helplessness"; that is, they are capable of less initiative in connection with their school tasks than they commonly exhibit in the accomplishment of other tasks.
School helplessness trains the kids for work helplessness.
I used to tell my guys, "If I walked into the office and said there was just something on the radio about free bagels at some place on the North Side, but I didn't catch the name, you wankers would locate it and be there before I turned around to ask how your morning's been so far. Yet I tell you to do something for work and I get a zillion questions." CC, JSM
Grok’s cousin is driving your Waymo…
I would have loved this form of exam. Half my blue books were almost illegible, as I was trying to shove as much as I could, and I could stand. I always express myself better when I can pace back and forth.
Or just give them all A's, and call it a day.
Years ago, one college professor gave my class our final exam as a "take home handwritten essay exam", to be turned in on set date and time, pages stapled together w/coversheet. When handing back the tests, he said he threw the essays down his basement stairs, and graded papers on basis of how far they flew down the stairs. Verbosity and large handwriting was a distinct advantage.
Not much better 40 years ago, when my PoliSci prof announced to the class EXACTLY what would be on the bluebook essay final. Topic by topic, outlined on the whiteboard.
In the week approaching the exam, I started writing the answers from notes and memory, then compared them with our texts and handouts. Next day, I just went with memory, and compared the results from the day before, making corrections and additions. Next day, I did the same thing.
Exam day I filled two bluebooks. When the grades were published, I was one of TWO students to get an A, several with B's and the rest of the class of *60* got C's and downwards.
It was essentially the offer of a free A, fer chrissakes, yet nobody wanted to invest the small amount of focused study to get it!!!
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