To my mind, this still from the movie establishes a proposition I've long been aware of: Zeppo was the funniest Marx Brother. For the uninitiated: Zeppo is second from the left.
Now, for those of you who don't want to read anything written by A.I., it's time to leave. Here's the prompt I took to Grok: "Is it true that in the opinion of those whose opinion counts most Zeppo was the funniest Marx Brother?"
The answer is yes.
First, Groucho said it, repeatedly. Grok writes: "He described Zeppo as having the best natural comic timing and delivery in real life, a dry, deadpan wit that killed in a room, but that Zeppo simply didn’t care enough about performing to push himself forward on screen. Groucho claimed Zeppo could have been the breakout star if he’d wanted it."
Then there was George S. Kaufman, co-writer of "The Cocoanuts" and "Animal Crackers," who "reportedly said Zeppo was the funniest of the brothers in rehearsals and in person." Other authorities who said the same thing included Steve Allen, Woody Allen, and Billy Crystal.
So Zeppo was given the “straight man/romantic lead” role until after "Duck Soup" he quit movies altogether and "became a successful theatrical agent and inventor (he held patents related to the cardiac clamp used in open-heart surgery)."
I was motivated to say: "If the other brothers saw him as the funniest, they had something to strive to excel. Zeppo was maximizing the comedy by performing that role and he didn't have the motivation to excel anyone. He was secure."
Skimming Grok's somewhat lengthy mirroring of what I'd just said, I got a new idea: "I want to expand this into a larger life lesson and write a self-help book — in the manner of 'Let Them' — that would be titled 'Be the Zeppo.'"
1. By "write a self-help book," I meant write a blog post that would earn the tag "Unwritten Books," that is, the blog post you are reading now.
2. Of course, Grok immediately outlined this book for me, replete with subtitle options — like "The Power of Radical Non-Competition" — and 10 chapters — including "The 'Anything Further, Father?' Principle/One perfectly timed sentence beats a ten-minute monologue. The power of strategic silence."
3. Here, you can read everything Grok said.
4. Here's Mel Robbins, the author of "The Let Them Theory," quickly explaining the whole book to Bill Maher.
5. Anything further?
5. Anything further?
Posts
61 comments:
JD is the Zeppo of the 47 Admin. CC, JSM
Awesome, Althouse. I never knew any of this. And I'm a huge Marx brothers fan. In their public art, he's not funny at all. But in private, he's hilarious. I love it.
A Day at the Races
A Night at the Opera
Duck Soup
Another thing I love is how their comedy is vaguely Marxist, with the brothers attacking the upper class. But they also attack themselves and the lower classes, too.
Slogan for New York's new mayor? "The Marx brothers have never been tried."
And I spent all those years thinking that Zeppo only invented the cigarette lighter because he thought Gummo was getting too much fame for inventing that stuff you can chew that isn’t tobacco.
I can see how the same person would be a movie agent and a patent holder. You establish a structure where you keep getting a cut.
And his position in the Marx Brothers was similar, set up so that they frenetically worked and he got his cut.
Reacher said nothing.
I am, I believe the only person who bought Barbara Sinatra's "Lady Blue Eyes: My Life with Frank" because I wanted to read what she has to say about Zeppo Marx.
Blogged here: https://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/05/perhaps-it-was-zeppos-ardent-pursuit.html
Mrs. Sinatra was previously married to Zeppo, so think about what that must mean about what he was like in private and how he had too much of a sense of personal security to need to beg for attention.
"Let Them" is basically stoicism.
Blogger James Lileks recently wrote that "Grok was designed and engineered for old women who live alone because their cats can't talk back to them."
I say dolphins change my mind
Any list of of top 100 comedies that doesn't include "Tom Jones" and the original "Cage aux Folles" is seriously deficient, in my humble opinion.
I believe that in their Broadway days, Zeppo would understudy all three of his zany brothers.
Zeppo only got into the act because brother #4, Gummo, was drafted into WWI and the act needed a replacement.
"Blogger James Lileks recently wrote that "Grok was designed and engineered for old women who live alone because their cats can't talk back to them.""
So if the cats actually talked some human man would join the household?
Interesting ambiguity.
I googled it, wondering if the AI got it right. Google's AI says the exactly opposite.
Groucho Marx had a complex relationship with his younger brother Zeppo, often viewing him as the least funny and most serious. While Groucho frequently teased Zeppo about his straight-man roles, he also acknowledged that Zeppo's business acumen was successful after leaving the act. Groucho also said Zeppo’s stage name was a reference to the Zeppelin airship, while a less flattering account by Groucho claimed he named Zeppo after a chimp named Mr. Zippo that he imitated.
Comedy and seriousness: Groucho viewed Zeppo as the "straight man" and often made fun of his younger brother's seriousness, particularly in the context of comedy.
Business success: Groucho acknowledged Zeppo's success in the business world. Zeppo became a successful talent agent who represented other actors, and his net worth at his death was notably higher than his brothers, who continued to perform in comedy.
Stage name origins: In his 1972 Carnegie Hall concert, Groucho Marx said Zeppo's name was a reference to the Zeppelin airship. In contrast, Groucho also claimed to have named Zeppo after a chimp named Mr. Zippo, though this account is less flattering and less consistently repeated.
Role in the group: Zeppo was the youngest of the Marx Brothers and appeared in the first five films, often in a romantic lead role that was eventually phased out. His departure from the group to focus on business was a turning point for the Marx Brothers' comedy, which Groucho felt was not the same without Zeppo.
The super annoying thing, is that when you ask the AI to do it again, the AI will give you something that is completely different. AI quotes disappear and new information is added.
AI is bad for journalism and non-fiction, obviously. We can't trust it. It's very authoritative-sounding. And then it authoritatively says the exact opposite.
old women who live alone because their cats can't talk back to them
Where do you find cats who don't talk back? Mine are pretty mouthy.
"The super annoying thing, is that when you ask the AI to do it again, the AI will give you something that is completely different. AI quotes disappear and new information is added."
Yeah, you've got to learn how to use AI wisely (or don't use it).
For the record, my original prompt was based on what I remember from books and what I had personally observed in the movies.
So you check some books too and see what you get.
Something I learned from reading The Making of the Atomic Bomb was that on the flight to Hiroshima, the bomb was secured to the B-29 by use of a Marman clamp, which was invented by Zeppo.
As for "Groucho viewed Zeppo as the "straight man" and often made fun of his younger brother's seriousness, particularly in the context of comedy" — that's not inconsistent from what i have in the post and what you see at Grok. Zeppo didn't want to put much into comedy — certainly not the madcap antics the other 3 did — so he was used in the straight-man role. It wasn't because he wasn't funny that he was chosen for that role.
IIRR in "Grouchophile," when Groucho was ill during the run of one of the plays, Zeppo stepped in and did so well that Groucho joked [?] that he got well quickly before he was replaced.
There's also the story about Zeppo or Gummo (both were theatrical agents) trying to encourage an actor to sign with them during a restaurant dinner. A belligerent drunk was bothering them and Marx stood, belted the drunk, turned to the actor and said, "There! Would any other agent provide this service?"
The method of the heuristic how the Ai remembers and what it leavss out
"Groucho viewed Zeppo as the "straight man" and often made fun of his younger brother's seriousness, particularly in the context of comedy" — that seems like a twisted way of saying what I'm saying: He made the straight role funny (as you see in the "Anything further, father?" clip). It's funny to be serious. There are various comedians who are funny through the mechanism of seriousness — from Buster Keaton to Stephen Wright. I find that kind of thing especially funny.
That list doesn't have "Tommy Boy" or "My Cousin Vinnie" on it. Nonsense.
"Animal House" isn't on the list either.
You'd think AI might make in-roads in fiction, since AI is completely unreliable and facts are out the window. I find AI fiction completely unreadable. AI has never made me laugh. AI has no sense of humor and cannot do humor.
I am hopeful that humor writers will have a fantastic future, as humor is one of the hardest art forms to master. Drama can be entertaining, even if it's not dramatic. If you try to be funny and fail, that's dead air. And an impossible read.
For the publishing industry, the worst part is how easy it is for non-artists to create something. "Give me a 90,000 word Agatha Christie mystery, please." And then you self-publish or submit to agents and editors.
If this was a bad movie, we'd call it The Slush Pile. A.I. empowers the slush pile and makes it 100,000 times bigger, and the Slush Pile is stomping, possibly oozing, through New York City, destroying all the publishing houses in its wake.
If I can try for an Andy Warhol quote...
In the future, everybody will write a book, and nobody will read them.
Art will survive, I hope. Although I think the movie houses are dead. Going to the movies is a dying experience. Technology shifts, all the time. And the human experience evolves with it.
The list omits “Animal House”, “There’s Something About Mary”, “Dazed and Confused” and “American Graffiti”.
Did they leave “Pet Sounds” and “Revolver off their greatest albums list, as well”?
Idiots.
AI is best for opinions.
As far as Zeppo - I must live under a rock because I really don't know.
AI is like an old fashioned gum ball machine. ?
In my new book -- I just finished the first draft yesterday -- I had several foreign characters, and they were speaking Irish, French, Spanish and Korean. I'm bad at languages. I took Spanish over and over. I'm doing Spanish again with (free) Duolingo. Spanish I kinda know, and French, a little. Irish is strange and Korean is super-strange.
Anyway, AI authoritatively translates English to foreign languages. So that was super-helpful to me. I could have my foreigners speak actual sentences. The problem, of course, is the damn AI gets the sentences wrong and makes up words.
It looks like French, Spanish, Irish and Korean. So that's helpful. It's superficially a foreign language. I suspect that these are really bad translations.
Humor is authentic and entirely subjective.
Fargo is great. I also love Miller's Crossing. The Coens had a lot of humor in their early works. But these movies also had a lot of violence and drama.
My mom and I saw Fargo in the theater. This scene cracked us up. The two of us were laughing out loud. And we were the only ones in the theater laughing.
Joel seems to have lost the plot in his last few film
Narciso, do you mean Ethan?
I've been trying to see Hellzapoppin forever. It's supposedly a classic comedy. Not out on DVD. Couldn't find it. No distribution. So it's not in my movie book. Really annoying. So I want to think Althouse, and Variety, for digging that movie up again. I just ordered it on Amazon!
I'm so mad at Netflix for shutting down their massive DVD library. Now I have to buy shit, ugh. The DVDs are pilling up in my place, along with the books. Hopefully Variety is right, and it really is funny. Based on their list, I figure I got about a 70% chance of loving it.
I don't know about Zeppo, but the right answer to the question "Who is your favorite Beatle?" was always Ringo. Just like the best James Bond has always been George Lazenby.
I note that Variety overlooks the N-word breach in Blazing Saddles.
Plot idea for a comedy: Film professor plays Blazing Saddles for his class. "The fart scene is hilarious!" And then he gets fired.
Reporter: "How do you find America?"
Ringo: "Turn left at Greenland."
Did they put A Hard Day's Night on the list? Oversight.
Oops, they did. #41. Good call!
The Marx Brothers' legs look too long in the picture. Zeppo's waist looks especially high. Primitive doctoring?
No one really speaks Irish. It's a sort of a petting zoo of a language. Of course, many CAN speak it after a fashion, and they are inordinately proud of this fact.
I'm not at all convinced about Zeppo; he's always popcorn time in my book.
But I agree that Variety provides a nice cross-section of comedies. I was pleasantly surprised seeing them include Buster Keaton's "Sherlock Jr." at #11.
This video appreciation may not be "the opinion of those whose opinion counts most," but at least it is pointing to something we can view and assess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qTcigKYGJc
I didn't see Stripes on my scroll-through of their list, either. Hmmph!
No Bob Hope on the list.
When I was a kid, I thought Bob Hope was lame. I saw him when he was old. I thought he wasn't funny. And then I saw his old stuff. Dude.
Never Say Die (1939)
Fantastic Bob Hope movie. The screenplay is phenomenal. Co-written by Frank Butler, who is English, it’s about Americans abroad in the rich enclaves of Europe. Butler and Don Hartman teamed up on a lot of the great Hope movies, including some of the Road pictures. But what makes this really special is Preston Sturges is a co-writer as well. This movie skewers high-class Europeans and low-class Texans and you just love everybody. Andy Devine should have won an Academy award for this one. It’s like a mishmash of P.G. Wodehouse and Mark Twain, with Bob Hope playing a hypochondriac millionaire. Criminally underrated, I’d never heard of this movie. Wow.
Nothing But the Truth (1941) Bob Hope has to tell the truth for 24 hours. No lies. Oh no!
Road to Morocco (1942) For years, I never appreciated Bob Hope. I was too young for him. A few years ago I saw Son of Paleface, which is very funny, but I put that down to Frank Tashlin brilliance. It's not Bob Hope, I said to myself. His jokes are bad. I had seen the first Road picture, and I was unimpressed, so I didn't bother with the rest of them. Wow, my mistake. This is the third one, and believe you me, they got the hang of it. It's a great flick. I knew once I saw Bob and Bing singing on that camel, while they look directly into the camera, that I was going to love this movie. Were they influenced by Brecht? Did Godard watch the Road pictures? You got me. But they break the fourth wall and talk directly to the audience. Come to think of it, Bugs Bunny did that too. No wonder Tashlin wanted to work with Bob Hope. And aside from all the postmodern deconstruction of narrative in Bob Hope cinema, they're so frickin mean to each other! That's the other thing that seemed so original and new. If it's not Bing selling Bob into white slavery, it's Bob setting Bing up to be decapitated. It's, I dunno, innocent Bob Hope sadism. Or something. Anyway, it's brilliant cool. Bob Hope is edgy. Who knew?
Road to Zanzibar (1941) Bob and Bing find some war drums and start beating on them like they're a jazz duo. 200 angry cannibals show up with spears. "Hi, fellas. Who's got the dice?" It's a racist line, maybe, but also funny as hell. Whenever Bob runs into life-threatening situations in some third world hellhole, that's his favorite thing to say. "Who's got the dice?" It's his fear that makes this funny, his wanting to be pals with people who are not like him at all. Bing is never afraid. Why should he be, it's Bob who has to be shot out of a cannon or wrestle a gorilla. Hanging out with Bob makes Bing zippier, and hanging out with Bing makes Bob cooler, although his nerves betray him more than once. "Who's got the dice?" That kills me. He wants to be cool so bad. Can't we play dice and be friends?
I feel like there's racism in here somewhere, and I should not laugh at this, but I also feel a great deal of humanity and vulnerability in Bob Hope's art. He's afraid like W.C. Fields but he tries to cover it up with inane jokes that don't work, and he knows it. And Bing Crosby is the perfect foil for Bob Hope. Bing is always blasé and cool, a master at underplay. I love how they riff off each other and unite in the face of danger. They acknowledge racial fears and are cool anyway, all the while undermining any pretense at white superiority. It's brilliant, really, and damn funny.
Old and Slow
so the IRA will not be mad at me! good to know
Irish is funny to me because she's white, and Christian (presumably) but her inability to speak English makes her suspicious and annoying. The Marshal who bought her in a mail-order catalog wanted a high-class girl from England. But he was drunk and ordered up a firecracker from Ireland by mistake. And she's pregnant.
Never thought about Zeppo or Gummo much. Harpo always gave me the creeps. Groucho got boring fairly quickly. But I always enjoyed Chico.
John Henry
Hellzapoppin is here, St Croix https://youtu.be/c2TOriWWSLE?si=agiyA29f9fF9pDsH
John Henry
The whole job of a straight man is give the funny guy setups and ammunition. Margaret Dumont was great at her job and probably the best Groucho straight "woman". Groucho later said she didn't get the jokes - which is absurd.
I like watching the Marx brothers on DVD, because I can skip the horrible music numbers (I wish someone had broken that damn harp) and Harpo's "Comedy". I usually just rewatch scenes with Groucho in them. When he's not onscreen, the whole thing becomes duller than dishwater.
Chico is good at interacting with Groucho. But by himself, he's a bore.
Never heard of Marman clamps but now that I know what they are from Wikipedia, I recognize them in almost daily use as Sanitary Clamps (Tri-Clover or TriClamps), as Victaulic pipe fittings, as the closure ring for drum lids and more.
Not sure if they are technically "Marman Clamps" but they are very close first cousins.
John Henry
I like watching the Marx brothers on DVD, because I can skip the horrible music numbers (I wish someone had broken that damn harp)
I agree 100%.
I suspect the Marx brothers wanted to show the audience they weren't actually low class and worthless. They were attacking opera, after all, and high class people like opera. So they put that in for non-comic reasons.
The first time I saw the movie, I was like, "I cannot believe he's playing a damn harp." For like 3 minutes! The second time, I fast-forwarded through that. The third time I saw that movie, I was like, "Maybe it's real beauty, and I ought to try to listen." I gave it a minute.
“Planes, Trains, and Automobiles” not being on that list invalidates it for me.
thanks John Henry!
SC - it was part of their vaudville act, and they never changed it. And now...Here's harpo and his magical harp.
I agree with boatbuilder on My Cousin Vinny. Holds up incredibly well, on multiple viewings. Joe Pesci's best movie, by far, not even close. And it remains the best cross-examination I've ever seen, in art or law school. Dude. And that extra who sucked down a chicken leg. And the clicking biological clock. And the death penalty! An innocent man, wrongly accused. Hitchcock approves. That's the formula. Not to mention the finest use of grits in cinema.
Also agree about Animal House. That's a strange one to omit. Maybe they're punishing John Lassiter for killing some people on The Twilight Zone. I actually rate Oscar higher now. If you think Sylvester Stallone can't be funny, check that one out. I've noticed Stallone is willing to give disgraced people (Landis, Gibson) another chance at redemption. Good for him. And I liked his willingness to produce Creed and take a small funny role in it. "Where's the cloud?"
thanks RCO, I never saw their vaudeville
I think for the most part, they wanted to do their old trusted routines for the camera. I know Groucho did not like Sam Wood. I think he called him Dead Wood? Thalberg might have been the real artist behind the scenes. He died at 37. And that was the beginning of the end for the Marx brothers, in my opinion. I still love Room Service and At the Circus. There was a big fall off in quality after that. And then WW2 hit and they were pretty much done.
One weird thing about Groucho, apparently, is that he was always acting like Groucho, even when away from the cameras. He did it with his family and his children. He had assumed a persona and he did not release himself from it.
Don't be the Zeppo. Be the Gummo.
Oh, for fuck's sake, this is a terrible list. I wouldn't criticize it too much except for the films that got added with the glaring omissions. How does Animal House not make it on this list? How does Trading Places get omitted? How does Being There get omitted? Or the following:
High Anxiety
Shrek
Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me (better than the first one)
War of the Roses
Throw Momma From the Train
Ruthless People
Any of the Pink Panther movies
The Party
The Mask
There's Something About Mary
Dodgeball
Additionally, how isn't Airplane above The Naked Gun in this list?
Please, someone, kill my italics blunder.
Its those dolphins again
The thing about vinny was it was written by two englishmen who also did yes minister
Sorry, Ann, Chico was always my favorite. Faux Italian, gets me every time.
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