"In their eyes, Zelensky already had two strikes against him when he sat down with Trump and Vance.... Strike 3 against Zelensky: He disagreed publicly with Vance, who accused Zelensky of trying to 'litigate' his case before the media.... Strike 2 came just before Friday's meeting, when Zelensky arrived at the White House without a suit or jacket, as requested.... Strike 1... came Feb. 15, when Zelensky publicly trashed a proposed mineral rights deal with Ukraine that he privately had discussed the day before in Munich with Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio. The plan Friday was for Zelensky to sign a new version of the deal as part of a plan to end the war. That didn't happen.... The meeting was largely uneventful until Zelensky addressed Vance directly and asked how diplomacy would work with a lying killer like Putin. 'No one expected Zelensky to walk in there and act like such a petulant child, constantly frowning and shaking his head and DJT and JD had had enough,' one Republican close to the administration told Axios via text...."
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116 comments:
Zelinski does not care about his people dying.
He cares about Zelinski - and appeasing the horrible leftist globalists.
Well - enjoy your war - EU.
Does Ann have a baseball theme today?
“No Deal and No Meal” could be a good title for a book.
They asked him to wear a suit and he wouldn't do it???
The Nulands, Frums, Kagans and Kristols can't even control the American narrative, much less dictate the pace of the war they helped lose. Not only does President Trump have an excellent excuse to cut off Ukraine, he can act in ways that will collapse multiple European regimes. Sanctioning Romania for their autocratic arrests of leading opposition candidates- something he is particularly experienced with- is but an opener.
Apparently Zelensky thought the meeting was supposed to be with Senator Fetterman.
Ukrainian men themselves are unwilling to fight this war- they have to be conscripted to fight it. With the fighting age men (18-45), who before the war numbered 10 million in the non-Russian demographic, the Ukrainians should not be scrounging around to put at least of million of them into battle. If the Ukrainian men on the whole can't be bothered to volunteer, why should anyone outside of Ukraine care to save the Ukrainian government?
"three strikes" Yes, and Rubio had been very clear about the private-vs.-public game Zelensky was playing, marking him as unreliable at best. I suspect the U ambassador reminded Z, but to no avail. But it's still in US interest to strike an actual deal. Simply walking away is possible but not good. And that was Z's card: his only leverage. But minimal: Trump is not going to be hustled.
The democrat’s newfound bloodlust for war in Ukraine is puzzling until I realized that the neocons abandoned Trump’s republican party and infiltrated the democratic party. Trump is acting like the democrats did post-Vietnam, he hates needless death.
Z will publicly apologize on Monday. There will be a new minerals deal much better than before. Ukraine will agree to a cease fire. Z will come to the WH, wearing a suit, and sign the new deal. Z will go on Fox and rat out all the Dems who put him up to that stunt. Names will be named starting with Schumer, Schiff and Murphy.
I think strike 2 was when Zelensky didn't come prepared to sign the deal. Axios wants it to seem that Trump is being petty about requiring a suit. Kash Patel doesn't wear a suit. Trump likes suits, but he doesn't require them. Trump wants a deal. Zelensky was invited to the White House to sign a deal. Zelensky opted to not sign the deal. The rest was Zelensky trying to explain why he wouldn't sign a deal, and Trump and Vance had enough.
The left can make hay claiming Trump lost his cool, Trump couldn't make the deal or, the truly zany, Trump was doing a stunt to show his support for Putin. Bottom line, Zelensky brought nothing to offer the United States while asking for a security guarantee. Maybe a President Harris would have said "hell yeah, let's through in a hundred billion too", but for Trump, "No Deal". Let the EU and lame Trudeau make a deal for nothing.
Add in Zelenskyy’s cooperation with Pelosi and the Democrats in the first Trump impeachment and his participation (perhaps unwitting) last fall in an anti-Trump campaign photo op in swing state Pennsylvania, and he’s up to strike #5.
How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a dolt?
The Slavic Spring was conceived and birthed before, but progressed with Zelensky's coup representation. Biden was full of emoluments, compromised, and could not risk exposure. Zelensky could end the civil war today, if he cared about the Ukrainian people. Clinton's maneuver to destroy essential services in Serbia, did not translate well to Crimea. Mass abortion was an inevitable choice in areas where Ukranian who were disenfranchised from 2014 looking forward, resisted attacks from the regime in Kiev and aligned axis powers.
I guess the question is how much is Trump willing to bend for Zelensky given how much Trump wants the killing to end. The allies certainly aren’t helping things come to an end. Why not? Its clear Ukraine can’t win this….
From Axios: "Zelensky is an actor who committed a common mistake of theater kids: He started to think he's the character he plays on TV," a White House official involved in the talks said.
Hahahaha.
Zelensky's uncivil behavior is reminiscent of the left-wing extremists who occupied the professor's home and then cried for empathetic support. He thought that Trump would beg for his agreement. He learned nothing of Trump's constitution in the woke of Democratic witch hunts and lynch mobs.
Zelensky needs to fire every Democrat "advising" him, cut off all their bribes, then call up JD and ask for advice.
Because if he doesn't, he won't have a country left by the time the Democrats regain enough influence to matter
Well Trump wanted peace and a cease fire. Zelenskyy wanted boodle and troops. Zelenskyy didn't get what he wanted and either left in a huff or was thrown out. Hard to say who lost the most from that contretemps. Trump didn't get the peace he wanted. In the long run the bigger loser will be Zelenskyy. He may ride the Ukrainian people to death and glory--but in the end there will be peace.
There's nothing I hate more than the demand for apologies from Political leaders. Who gives a fuck if he apologizes. What does that prove?
What really matters is what Zelensky does as the dictator of Ukraine. Will he sign the Mineral deal? Will he accept a peace treaty negotiated by Putin/Trump? Will he get with the EU warmongers and get enough weapons to fight on, no matter what?
I think the Zelenskyy meeting in the Oval Office is like a litmus test. If you’re deeply afflicted with TDS then Trump and Vance have totally disgraced the Presidency. If you’re more rational, then you’re aware that the meeting was a classical diplomatic photo op to show the participants signing an agreement that had already been negotiated behind closed doors weeks ago. It’s emphatically not the time and place to raise new issues (much less reraise old ones) or renegotiate what had already been agreed to.
The war in Ukraine is not an 80%-20% issue, but the portion of the American electorate that is tired of sending money to far-off Ukraine when if could be better spent at home is still somewhere between 60% and 70%. It would be great if Trump could could stop the cash outflow by negotiating a lasting peace, but a lot of us wouldn’t care in the slightest if we simply stopped sending Zelenskyy money and Ukraine made out as best as it can with no support from us.
Fascinating that Trump demanded Zelenskyyy show up in a suit and tie. It reminds me of Reagan never going into the Oval office with having a suit and tie on. Respect for the Presidency.
People who support Ukraine aren't Americans they're globalists. I'm talking about the well informed elite. Not the dumb average libtards who just believe the party line, and follow it.
Reading the NYTs and Financial Times today, you'd think they were citizens of Ukraine and not Englishmen or Americans. Poor Zelenskyyy having to put up with Trump. Why Putin would've acted the same way!
If you're an American, and you think this is Zelenskyyy vs. Trump then you need to get your head examined. Or just admit you're a Ukrainian asset or a globalist. Trump is sticking up for us - the USA. Zelenskyyy is a foreigner, looking out for Ukraine.
We have no stake in who controls Crimea or the Donbass. We don't want WW III with Russia. Ukraine does care about their border. And they are willing to risk WW III if it helps them.
From the article:
Strike 2 came just before Friday's meeting, when Zelensky arrived at the White House without a suit or jacket, as requested. It was perceived by White House staffers as disrespectful.
Axios makes that claim with zero evidence or attribution, not even a "sources say". Which staffers? According to whom? And the big question: does Trump really care of his staffers found it disrespectful?
Overall, a very poor attempt at trying to find "strikes".
I think Dave Begley has the right scenario. It may take until the end of the week, but it is the only path open to Zelensky. Would really love to know "what was he thinking?"
I can't be the only person in America who doesn't give a sh*t about Ukraine. How is Zelensky able to travel freely around the world if his country is at war? He's not even properly elected, his country doesn't have elections anymore. He can travel freely but he can't hold an election in his country. How convenient.
I figured him for another grifting creepy loser when he and his wife posed for the Vogue magazine cover. And nothing that's happened since makes me think I should change my mind.
Thinking that way obviously makes you a Putin stooge, Sal. /s
I think Zelensky has a tiger by the tail. His immediate patrons and bosses in the US "Deep State" for the moment lack the ability to funnel more money to him. He also can't blackmail Trump by threatening to expose the massive corruption on the US side of the "Aid" operation: billions in money stolen and diverted with some of it kicked back to US persons, US munitions sold on the black market, biowarfare research against the Geneva Convention (and the diversion of God knows what materials from those labs), and most of all the the destruction of Germany's multi-billion-dollar pipeline (which crippled the German economy), and the attempted assassination of Fico (and for that matter maybe one or both of the attempted assassinations of Trump).
A ceasefire and open elections risks this information coming out sooner rather than later.
So, I think, his Hail Mary is to get the US fighting Russia at the Russia/Ukraine border. I think the plan is to use long-range German missiles to provoke a Russian attack on a NATO country, so spazzing out in front of the media was a way to gain support from the EU-garchs who hate Trump and populism. And he very well might get that, but at the cost of Trump telling Germany and others "You're on your own" if you give the Ukrainians long-range weapons that provoke a Russian counter-strike.
And yes, Putin would love to fragment NATO this way, but Obama, Nuland, and Rice have made an unholy mess that now has to be cleaned up one way or another.
RCOCEAN II said...
People who support Ukraine aren't Americans they're globalists.
Oh bullshit you complete fucking moron.
Putin is America's enemy. Opposing attempts by America's enemies to increase their power and resource base is what actually GOOD Americans do.
The meeting was largely uneventful until Zelensky addressed Vance directly and asked how diplomacy would work with a lying killer like Putin.
This is a major weakness in Trump's strategy. Assuming Putin restrains himself the next four years, as he did from 2017-2021, what then? Will he not challenge the next President, whether it's Vance or someone else?
I'm unimpressed by the whole thing as acted out. I assume it's to appear to be on Putin's side so as to cause him to make assumptions that will work against him in negotiations.
The outrage by Trump is fake. Vance is probably moron enough to be outraged at the dress code violation of his esteemed position, though.
"Sally327 said...
I can't be the only person in America who doesn't give a sh*t about Ukraine."
And you're not. I can't believe the crap I see on my Facebook feed though with friends, who I would bet $1,000 could not find Ukraine on a map, posting flags, support, etc.
"Lance said...
The meeting was largely uneventful until Zelensky addressed Vance directly and asked how diplomacy would work with a lying killer like Putin.
This is a major weakness in Trump's strategy. Assuming Putin restrains himself the next four years, as he did from 2017-2021, what then? Will he not challenge the next President, whether it's Vance or someone else?"
Well then they'll have had four years of Ukrainian and Russian men NOT dying on the battlefield, and who knows how different the world will be then. Putin and Trump might both be dead, they're not youngsters. Four years of no war is better than none.
"Zelenskyy didn't get what he wanted and either left in a huff ..."
*****************
Is that what it was. I really couldn't make out the model as it drove away in it from the White House entrance.
"On 26 September 2022, news broke of four explosions at the Nord Stream 1 and 2 natural gas pipelines, rendering three of the four lines inoperable. Three separate investigations were started by Germany, Sweden and Denmark, the latter two were closed without publicly assigned responsibility for the damage in February 2024. In June 2024 German authorities issued an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian national suspected of the sabotage.
Although none of the four Nord Stream pipelines were in operation, they still contained pressurized natural gas, of which vast quantities were released into the Baltic Sea."
Zielinsky will be just fine. Europe will step up and back his continued war of attrition with Russia.
Has there ever been a comic head of state? That might say a lot about Z.
Good move by Trump to start revoking the neocon’s security clearances before this.
Looks like Zelensky lied about a deal and Rubio got rug pulled. Look at the videos of Rubio during the meeting. He set up the meeting and the deal and Zelensky made him look really bad.
Zelensky was always a corrupt morally adolescent dictator pretending to be a freedom fighter to get more money. Pretty soon we are going to be finding out how much US taxpayer money he squirreled away for himself along with all the other corrupt globalist pieces of $$$$ that have been profiting off the war and dead Ukrainian people.
I did not know they had requested that he wear a suit or jacket. They should have done what restaurants used to do when more of them had dress codes - provide a loaner jacket (that only fits somewhat and is 10 years out of style).
Zelenskyy could always flee to Germany, where he could be the Number 1 Comedian in that country.
And the only comedian in that country.
Sally327 said...
I can't be the only person in America who doesn't give a sh*t about Ukraine. How is Zelensky able to travel freely around the world if his country is at war? He's not even properly elected, his country doesn't have elections anymore. He can travel freely but he can't hold an election in his country. How convenient.
I figured him for another grifting creepy loser when he and his wife posed for the Vogue magazine cover. And nothing that's happened since makes me think I should change my mind.
You are not. Most people have been thinking this.
They had to call us traitors to keep from honestly discussing this obvious truth.
Also let's do Europe. F those people. I think Russia would be a more honest partner than the EU. Western Europe is just a globalist money laundering scam ripping off US taxpayers. We are directly funding European welfare states with US tax dollars.
Time for the brokies in Europe to go get a job.
Zelinski didn't make anyone look bad but himself.
Zelenskyy was setup for a public berating which in turn is being used as an excuse for Trump to cut off aid and support for Ukraine, which is what Putin fully supports.
The fact that Trump allowed himself to be interrupted by Vance in the middle of the visit of a foreign head of state and just sit quietly while he attacked the visiting leader shows that the whole thing was planned beforehand.
If Zelenskyy hadn’t pushed back when he did they would have just kept going until something else they said triggered some response. This is high school lunch table politics masquerading as international diplomacy. Incredibly sad state of affairs if this is what we’ll get from Trump administration for the next 47 months.
Staged. Next, Zelenskyy comes naked. Leaves behind blue pill, congestion, indigestion, flushing, headache, sings the tune of Big Button.
listened to a bit of NPR's "All Things Considered" this afternoon..
According to NPR:
The meeting was a 'devastating Failure'.. for Trump
Also, according to NPR, the ENTIRETY of Europe has now 'embraced' Zelensky, and has agreed to COMPLETELY FUND, and MAN the defense of the Ukraine.
These leaves the USA 'out in the cold', with 'no allies' (AND, nothing and noone to spend money on)
This.. According to NPR.. is ACTUAL ACTUALITY, and is "BAD"
Sometimes, listening to the fever dreams on NPR is entertaining
Zelensky is a provincial peasant doing his provincial peasant diplomacy. Up to his neck in blood, self-righteous and self-pitying dimwit. His sense of superiority and “you owe us” attitude kicked him out of the White House and straight into the arms of his Mommy, The Euro Trash.
These continued 'strike 2' discussions about dress code, and wearing a suit. I watched the early part of the meeting, and there was an obnoxious reporter that demanded to know from Zelensky why he hadn't worn a suit. 'Don't you own a suit?', he asked in a condescending, abrasive tone. He was one of those 'alternative media' 'reporters' that has now been invited in, and it was pretty clear he doesn't know much about his role. He sounded a bit like a Big Personality drunk at a mixer, not that he sounded drunk, it was just that kind of rudeness. It looked like Zelensky was put off by this, insulted. Maybe even, like he felt like he was being set up. Wouldn't it be wild if it turned out this interfering reporter, that doesn't know how to ask questions respectfully, actually precipitated some of this, and it isn't getting reported because 'he's a reporter' and not one of the players?
Kier Starmer embraced Zelinsky, and told him to go back and patch things up with Trump.
Also, it's been mentioned elsewhere, but I think the meeting would have benefited tremendously if Zelensky had brought an interpreter and used him. It would have provided nuance that probably escaped his limited English, and given him a bit more time to deliberate on his replies, be more articulate.
I wonder if any of those who fully back Ukraine are sincere enough to go enlist in the Ukrainian Army? I'm sure the Ukraine would be happy to put them to use.
The Dems will be happy to let American GIs die in Ukraine, since they are not likely to be LGBTQA.
@Greg The Class Traitor; "Putin is America's enemy."
How on Earth do you figure that? Adam Schiff is America's enemy. The Soviet Union was America's enemy, but it's all gone now. Putin is the elected dictator of Russia, a white, Christian country that the US could do a lot of mutually profitable business with.
Look, figure it out. Europe is the undersized rump of Asia, and the people running it are in the process of handing it over to third-world vermin. What does NATO have, that America can use? The Louvre? The muzzies will turn that into a mosque about the same time they rape the last white virgin in Britain. Maybe they'll save a few in Germany, for later.
It would be nice to save Europe from itself, and maybe Trump (and JD, who the Euro-weenies might want to recall is likely to be the next President of the United States) can manage it. But it's a luxury we don't really need.
The dimwit has insulted Trump. Trump wanted to show the American people how he is delivering on his campaign promises, the track suit Churchill dude was expected to sign a piece of paper, babble a few words in his thick incomprehensible Slavic accent and be gone back to his Briberstan. z showed up and had a meltdown like someone on the autistic spectrum, ruining a good day for Trump. I hope President Trump understood z is a snake not to be trusted in the future.
Trump doesn't want a peace deal, he wants a surrender deal.
And neither Zelensky nor Europe are willing to sign up for that.
If Trump intended to ramp up the pressure on Zelensky, then PM Keir Starmer is giving him reassurance that he can ignore it.
Neither Ukraine nor Russia will 'win' this conflict. Both sides have lost too many people and too much treasure. It will take years to rebuild and a lot of money Ukraine does not have. Showing up to a very important meeting about your country's future in your badass warrior costume is not appropriate nor smart. Trying to bully Donald Trump is the height of ignorance.
I do not want Russia to prevail, however at this point I am willing to tell Europe that if they want to engage in this matter, they can do so on their dime and without any participation of the US. No more money and not one US life.
Kaka said:
"If Trump intended to ramp up the pressure on Zelensky, then PM Keir Starmer is giving him reassurance that he can ignore it."
************************
Let's see if those "reassurances" consist of several hundred billion pounds and Euros. Plus weaponry. and Boots on the Ground.
There used to be a show called "The Dog Whisperer" and every once in a while he would run into a yappy little ankle biter like Zelensky. He would put the dog on a program of lowering its perceived status. Making sure it didn't go through a door first, didn't eat first, stuff like that, until it got the message who was really boss.
"then PM Keir Starmer is giving him reassurance that he can ignore it."
I don't see what Zelensky is worried about then. Starmer has signed a 100 year deal with Ukraine to be there for it, and has even talked about putting the British fleet in the Sea of Azov after, you know, Ukraine has driven out the Russians. So go ahead Europe, which is as blood-soaked a continent as has ever been, having invented industrial war with the Romans. You want to have another "Great War," you do it without us.
This war is already lost. There are two possibilities to avert a military capitulation by Kiev. A negotiated settlement, or world war three. Biden should never have provoked this war, and Europe should have grown a pair then. It's too late now.
Europe prefers a military capitulation because that keeps the conflict going, as they will refuse to recognize it, and their hope will be that because the conflict is still going, the US can't leave and do its long planned, and in the eyes of many who plan these endless wars, long overdue "pivot to the Asia Pacific."
Jupiter said...
@Greg The Class Traitor; "Putin is America's enemy."
How on Earth do you figure that?
Because I'm not a complete moron?
The Soviet Union was America's enemy, but it's all gone now.
And Putin mourns that fact, and wants to bring it back.
Putin is the elected dictator of Russia, a white, Christian country that the US could do a lot of mutually profitable business with.
1: "Elected dictator" is an oxymoron only used by morons.
he's a dictator, a Communist who hates America because we defeated the USSR
2: Putin is not a Christian, he's a former Communist who doesn't believe in anything but himself.
He also believes your'e an idiot for letting him sucker you with the "we're all white Christians together"
3: Russia is a kleptocracy run by former Communist oligarchs. They are fundamentally incapable of understanding commercial exchange, or capitalism, or anything other than "I steal".
We can no more do "mutually profitable business with" them than we can with CCP China
"Russia, a white, Christian country"
Pope Francis is "White", and unlike Putin he actually IS a "Christian". If you think you have much in common with him, that he's not our enemy, you are even more of an idiot than I think you are.
Oh, and Ukraine is a "White Christian" country that rejects Communism. So why are you so eager to throw them under the Russian tank?
Howard - who is left to care about the people of Ukraine?
Kakapoodle - you are embarrassing yourself again.
Kak - It's all theater for you dedicated democratic-Soviets.
"How on Earth do you figure that?"
Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden told him so. I still can't figure out what, if anything, either Putin, or Russia for that matter, has done to the United States but sit in maybe a hundred trillion dollars worth of natural resources, and a relatively low population, making it a fat target for regime change, collapse, and putting our puppets in charge of looting those resources for us and Europe.
Europe has maintained its wealth for five hundred years by looting Africa, and has been trying to loot Russia since King Charles the XII of Sweden at least, then Napoleon, then Hitler, now NATO is trying to put a knife to Russia's throat by cutting it off from the Black Sea, handing Russia a strategic defeat which we hope will lead to its collapse into the helplessness we have sought since the 18th Century. This is how the Austro-Hungarian Empire was defeated, it was dealt a strategic defeat and it collapsed. This plan for the Russian Federation has been written about in Western foreign policy journals.
The only Russian invasion of Europe was a counterattack to Hitler's invasion of Russia. Russia is a resource rich country with a smallish population for its physical size, and these are not the kinds of countries that invade their neighbors, more like the kinds of countries that just want to be left alone, and yet seldom get their wish.
"So why are you so eager to throw them under the Russian tank?"
Um, because they provoked the Russians? Because they tore up three generous peace deals since 2014, when we overthrew the democratically elected government there and precipitated a civil war?
Why do leftists argue like prissy middle school cheerleaders?
I suspect that Putin does feel a certain nostalgia for the USSR, but I see no evidence he intends to reassemble it. He looks to be a dictator, and he was most certainly elected. So.
I didn't say he was Christian, I said that Russia is Christian. I'm not Christian either, except culturally. Russia built a pipeline to transfer natural gas to Europe, which would seem to indicate a certain, rudimentary understanding of commercial exchange.
Any additional counterfactuals you'd like to assert today?
"And Putin mourns that fact, and wants to bring it back."
This is a plain lie. Putin said that it was a tragedy that the Russian people were divided as parts of Russia were broken off in the chaos that attended the fall of the USSR. Parts of Ukraine, like Crimea and Donbas, were Russian for centuries. Ukraine's borders were pasted together by dictators like Hitler and Stalin and Khrushchev, without any regard for the wishes of the people who lived there.
"So why are you so eager to throw them under the Russian tank?"
Nice response, Jaq. Let me just add, that the part of Ukraine "under the Russian tank" at the moment is mostly the part that predominantly speaks Russian, and would vote to join Russia if a vote could be held. So, the question is really, "Why don't you want to help Zelinskyy and his kleptocrat henchmen reoccupy liberated Russian Ukraine?".
Um. Cause I'm not a criminal neo-con?
EU can help round up Ukraineans and send them back to Zelenskyy
Maybe USA can learn how people-catching was done
It is endlessly noteworthy, that when Teddy Kennedy colluded (unsuccessfully) with the Soviets to win the 1980 election, the Democrats had no problem with it. But now that Russia is no longer Communist, the Democrats see it as the White Peril.
LLR-democratical Rich: "Zelenskyy was setup for a public berating which in turn is being used as an excuse for Trump to cut off aid and support for Ukraine, which is what Putin fully supports."
LOL
Perfect channeling of Susan Rice, verbatim, and Team Obama.
Shocker, eh?
And while I'm on the subject, it is not evident that Putin's government is less "democratic" than those of the EU. Which is what Vance was trying to tell them, but modern fascists don't like to be told they are fascists.
Starmer told Zelensky: Go back and patch things up with Trump"
We note the liar left are really trying to re-write history as to when the war began - reality: while Crook Joe was at the helm.
How is a cease fire not in the best interest of Ukraine? It's not like they're on a tear and driving the Russians before them. They're not going to lose momentum.
They could use the time to rest, regroup, re-arm, etc, even if the peace talks ultimately break down.
The left just like to call everyone "Putin lovers"
That's about all they can summon.
LLR-democratical Rich: "Trump doesn't want a peace deal, he wants a surrender deal."
LOL
The deal the Trump admin had negotiated, as written, would have created a permanent joint economic partnership between the US and Ukraine, thus satisfying American requirements that the US see a return on its continuing funding of Ukraine, just like the euro-weenie deals with Ukraine in the form of loans for payback. (Just this morning, anotherLOAN of 2.5Billion Euros from the UK to Ukraine)
Further, interms of a "security guarantee", American companies, American workers and American business operations would exist up to the edges of whatever cease-fire borders were established.
Thus, an American economic tripwire would physically exist to act as a deterrent to future russki adventurism in Eastern Ukraine.
That was the deal the Trump admin negotiated for and received approval on 3 different times....before Zelensky zig zags.
But the neocons and euro-money grifters want nothing less than US boots on the ground slugging it out with the russkis directly. Nothing less than that will be acceptable to them and they have captured the little coked up midget's ear.
WHY ZELENSKY CANNOT MAKE PEACE
BTW, you can tell the initial Zelensky/neocon/Forever War-globalist ploy to try and embarrass Trump failed horrendously by the rapid, within 12 hours, shift in the main lefty talking point from "whoo boy Zelensky sure showed the bad orange man!" to "Zelensky was set up!"
So transparently dishonest...and you cant spell transparently dishonest without L-L-R-d-e-m-o-c-r-a-t-i-c-a-l-R-i-c-h!
"They could use the time to rest, regroup, re-arm, etc..."
Which is exactly why Russia will never agree to a cease fire. They are not idiots.
I do have to admit that cranking up greater euro-weenie boots on the ground numbers would greatly accelerate the EU's ongoing replacement of white Christian people with 3rd world muslims so that Sharia law might be established more quickly in the coming Euro-caliphate.
Russia has never had much interest in Western Europe, except as a cultural model. Russia's territorial aspirations are to the SouthWest. Who knows, maybe while the Muzzies are desecrating the Cathedrals of Europe, the Russians could drive that little shit-heel Erdogan into Syria, retake Constantinople, and restore the Hagia Sophia. While we help them develop their vast Siberian resources. Fuck a bunch of Europe.
Jaq said...
"And Putin mourns that fact, and wants to bring it back."
"This is a plain lie. Putin said that it was a tragedy that the Russian people were divided as parts of Russia were broken off in the chaos that attended the fall of the USSR. Parts of Ukraine, like Crimea and Donbas, were Russian for centuries. Ukraine's borders were pasted together by dictators like Hitler and Stalin and Khrushchev, without any regard for the wishes of the people who lived there."
So were the Baltic states. They have Russians living in them. You wanna give them back too?
Putin dreams of the former soviet empire.
Groucho would have said, "he left in a huff. If that's too fast for you, he could leave in a minute and a huff."
"The only Russian invasion of Europe was a counterattack to Hitler's invasion of Russia."
And then they kept it all.
"I can't believe the crap I see on my Facebook feed though with friends, who I would bet $1,000 could not find Ukraine on a map, posting flags, support, etc."
There was an event in Madison, WI at the beginning of the war that stunned me. There was a performance at the Overture Center (performing arts center) and before it commenced they played the Ukrainian anthem and everybody rose in salute. My thought was, WTF? I mean, sure, it was tragic that a war had started and yes Ukraine appeared to be the victim, but why were all these liberals paying homage in a way they wouldn't be caught dead doing for their own country?
I still don't understand this dynamic.
Jaq repeats a lie I've corrected before: "The only Russian invasion of Europe was a counterattack to Hitler's invasion of Russia." He conveniently 'forgets' that just a few years before Stalin's counterattack in 1943-45, he invaded Europe - Poland and the Baltics - in cooperation with Hitler. He also forgets the three previous partitions of Poland, among other things.
Lem Vibe Bandit writes (5:25pm) "Has there ever been a comic head of state? That might say a lot about Z."
Has he never seen Ronald Reagan in Bedtime for Bonzo? If he retorts that Reagan did different kinds of movies, not just comedies, I think Zelenskyy did, too. It appears that acting is in fact a pretty decent preparation for head of state.
Jaq repeats a lie I've corrected before: "The only Russian invasion of Europe was a counterattack to Hitler's invasion of Russia." He conveniently 'forgets' that just a few years before Stalin's counterattack in 1943-45, he invaded Europe - Poland and the Baltics - in cooperation with Hitler. He also forgets the three previous partitions of Poland, among other things.
Jaq also neglects Russia (it wasn't yet the “Soviet Union”) under Lenin's attack on and attempted conquest of Poland in 1919-1921 (spreading the Revolution westwards, as Lenin saw it)—which the Poles defeated via one of the last great cavalry battles (as well as other battles) in modern warfare.
Trump has hated Zelensky ever since he was impeached for pressuring Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden in 2019. Trump wants to cut off aid and screw Zelensky and Ukraine. But he doesn’t want Ukraine to be his “Biden leaving Afghanistan” moment.
To avoid such personal accountability, Trump needs excuses and other people to blame if he screws Ukraine and it falls. That’s why Team Trump trashed Europe last week. And that’s why Trump ambushed Zelensky this week. Europe and Zelensky are the fall guys. Next Trump will try to cut off aid and relieve sanctions on Russia. Then, if Ukraine falls, “he did everything he could for peace.“ It’s Europe and Zelensky’s fault.
When you look at everything through this lens, it’s clear and predictable. It’s also manufactured, dishonest and disgusting.
The only other interesting angle I see is JD Vance. I think he has an inferiority complex from his a broken family and poverty in Middletown, Ohio (dude literally wrote a book about it). Because of that, he overcompensates with aggressiveness if he feels attacked or embarrassed. When coupled with his lack of experience, this is not the junior Senator you want anywhere near a situation requiring diplomacy.
Trump has hated Zelensky ever since he was impeached for pressuring Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden in 2019. Trump wants to cut off aid and screw Zelensky and Ukraine.
Okay, so the Trump hatred has morphed from "He's literally Hitler" to "he's an insanely petty man who wants millions to die." Apparently the 2024 election has moved the needle of the TDS insanity exactly one notch closer to sane.
I wish the hate-filled crowd would acknowledge, out in the open, that Trump is not Hitler, and everybody who called him this was wrong and should apologize. If you could just do that, maybe you would be cured. This hatred is embarrassing and it makes all you people look really bad. You are hating a figment of your imagination.
Consider the possibility that Trump is not a psychopath and doesn't actually like that millions of innocent people have died in a stupid war between Russia and Ukraine. Maybe he really wants a ceasefire and is trying to broker a deal between a nuclear-armed asshole dictator and the dictator whose country he invaded.
The deal Trump brokered, to have the USA in Ukraine, right on Russia's doorstep, working on mining rare earth metals, while France and other countries send troops, was an outstanding deal. There would be no pledge or commitment to enter WW3 if Ukraine is invaded again. That's what Zelenskyy wants, apparently. He's not going to get that. I don't know why the hell he objects to a ceasefire. That's irrational. Zelenskyy tweeted that a "ceasefire is dangerous for Ukraine." More dangerous than a war?
And that’s why Trump ambushed Zelensky this week.
Turns out, it was the resistance Dems behind an ambush. Just prior to the meeting with President Trump and Vice President Vance, Zelensky was encouraged by Dems in another meeting to not sign the agreement without demanding US security promises. That prompted Zelensky to act the fool in front of the press pool, and the Vice President rightly slapped the bitch across his resistance Dem pole sucking hole.
- Krumhorn
…although, Sen Chris Murphy doesn’t appear to have much of a pole. More like a boy weenie by the evidence.
- Krumhorn
Nice link at 7:48, Peachy, thanks
"To avoid such personal accountability, Trump needs excuses and other people to blame if he screws Ukraine and it falls. That’s why Team Trump trashed Europe last week."
Bullshit. "Team Trump" told Europe exactly what it needed to hear; that they've become a bunch of anti-democratic thugs. Maybe it's not too late for them to change course.
Various posters: " he invaded Europe - Poland and the Baltics - in cooperation with Hitler. He also forgets the three previous partitions of Poland" and "Lenin's attack on and attempted conquest of Poland in 1919-1921".
Well, to be perfectly honest, didn't Polish-Lithuanians started it all :))))? In one moment they even tried to declare some miserable puppet as the Tsar? If we want to look back...
Also from the point of view of Stalin, neither of these were "attacks", but revisions of the forced peace treaty with Germany. You know, "historical injustice" and all...
These problems with Poland and Finland do not exist any more (although attempts to close seaways and terrorist attacks on infrastructure are opening interesting opportunities to revise all these issues, once and for all). Baltics... well... I think they made a wrong bet. Hopefully, they readjust quickly and survive, they are currently going through "the march of folly".
p.s. I find interesting attempts by Zelenski/y to mimic Polish pre-1939 behavior, which was perfectly seen through by Vance/Trump and even by Tusk (based on his recent statements). So, instead of giving a safe corridor and the special status to Gdansk/Danzig (which pretty much everyone agreed with, including local population), we got the WWII. Instead of accepting loose Federation and equal status to Russian Language, we are supposed to get WWIII and Hazelnuts striking military bases in Poland and Germany as the next step in escalation? Sure, we are all for it! British should re-read their diplomatic notes from that period.
Because of that, he overcompensates with aggressiveness if he feels attacked or embarrassed.
Or maybe as a former squad leader in the US Marine Corps, he knows how to deal with a whiny bitch.
- Krumhorn
VDH has an excellent analysis of the peace negotiations. I agree with him 100%.
Correction on my post from 5:51. I said that "millions of innocent people have died." That number is way off.
Overall, 1.5 million people are dead, missing, wounded, or captured in the war. Almost all of those people are soldiers.
Civilian deaths in the Ukraine war are around 12,000.
If Zelensky believes the bullshit he was spouting and that the Euro-elites began cheering then he can prove it now by using the overwhelming support of The EU to win his war. Making a secret deal for the mineral rights and then showing up to the signing ceremony to change the terms and berate his benefactors was…unwise.
There had better be a good close look at this subversion of the President’s exclusive authority to conduct US foreign policy. The resistance Dems should have to answer for this. Hard
- Krumhorn
Given the fact that nothing about the Minerals Deal, which was the agreed upon purpose for the Signing Ceremony that was open to the Press unlike any planned negotiations would have been, was in any way favorable to Russia or Putin then it’s up to all the mini-Vicky Nulands posturing here to explain their position. The reason Rubio was there was because he had worked out a very detailed agreement with Zelensky.
So step up your game Trump haters and explain why the US would ready such a deal for signing and then blow up a meeting so publicly. Please include an explanation for why none of the anti-Trump Press is mentioning the terms of the Deal, just like none of the “you go grrrl!” Tweets the Euro-weenies launched afterwards even nodded at the stated purpose for the very public Meeting.
Isn’t what Zelensky agreed to beforehand relevant? Why did he change his mind?
When you look at everything through this lens, it’s clear and predictable.
Yes, Orange Man Bad makes everything clear and predictable. Including undiagnosed and heretofore invisible inferiority complexes.
Thank you for shining the light of your special insight on the situation.
Not wearing a suit after being requested to tells you all about Zelensky. It's about him and the world stage. It's not about the other Ukranians. Churchill would have worn a track suit to get more support from FDR.
From Axios: "Zelensky is an actor who committed a common mistake of theater kids: He started to think he's the character he plays on TV," a White House official involved in the talks said.
Hahahaha.
Too true, but hardly a laughing matter. If all this had happened in the 15th or 16th century, Shakespeare would have written a tragedy about it. If it had happened in the 20th, Charlie Chaplin would have made a film -- but not one of his funny ones -- and played Zelensky himself. True, Zelensky's not the hero some make him out to be, but Richard II wasn't that heroic either.
Also from the point of view of Stalin, neither of these were "attacks", but revisions of the forced peace treaty with Germany.
Hitler ranted on and on about forced treaties and supposed injustices. Stalin didn't. His attack was a grab for power and territory, whether in the name of advancing Communism or giving the USSR more security. He united western Ukraine and the rest of Ukraine, but he didn't play that up because that would have encouraged Ukrainian nationalism. He may have been playing the role of a Russian imperialist in uniting Latvia and Lithuania with Russia, but he didn't want to portray himself as the heir of the reactionary, imperialist tsars -- until the German invasion made that absolutely necessary.
I find interesting attempts by Zelenski/y to mimic Polish pre-1939 behavior, which was perfectly seen through by Vance/Trump and even by Tusk (based on his recent statements). So, instead of giving a safe corridor and the special status to Gdansk/Danzig (which pretty much everyone agreed with, including local population), we got the WWII.
Hitler wanted war. Danzig was only a pretext. If he got Danzig, he would go on to make other demands.
What's to be feared going forward is that some may be moving from a healthy realism about foreign affairs to E.H. Carr's way of thinking in the 1930s -- that the strong are entitled to what they can take and the weak suffer what they must.
I hope "America First" doesn't make us pivot from a rejection of overextension and excessive commitments abroad to an arrogant national self-assertion similar to George W. Bush's pivot from calling for a "more modest" foreign policy that eschewed "nation building" to trying to remake a whole region of the world.
There's always potential for a boomerang effect when countries embrace the "Jacksonian" view of things. "America First" is an ambiguous phrase that can mean either retreating from foreign entanglements or aggressively asserting one's own national interest in foreign affairs.
"Too true, but hardly a laughing matter. If all this had happened in the 15th or 16th century, Shakespeare would have written a tragedy about it."
He did. The play is called Macbeth.
"Stars, hide your fires; Let not light see my black and deep desires."
Original Mike, ref standing for the Uke anthem:
In the summer of 2022, I went to a big Paul McCartney concert at Camden Yards. Paul came out for his encore waving a gigantic Uke flag, to massive cheers from the boomer crowd.
Couldn't understand that one, either.
JSM
Lazarus: "Hitler ranted on and on about forced treaties and supposed injustices. Stalin didn't. His attack was a grab for power and territory, whether in the name of advancing Communism or giving the USSR more security." and "Hitler wanted war. Danzig was only a pretext. If he got Danzig, he would go on to make other demands."
RE: There is no need for ranting, it is a personality trait. Reversal of all effects of Brest-Litovsk (which was always considered painful) was a major drive in Soviet policy, often presented as security issues.
Re: Hitler and Danzig... you don't know that, beyond what British and French subsequently claimed to cover their stupidity.
Zelensky, who was compared to Churchill more times than Churchill himself, is a Meghan Markle of the royal family.
Soviet officials had a complicated relationship with the gains that Imperial Russia had made and with the loss of those territories in 1918. They wanted those lands back, but there wasn't the burning sense of grievance that Germany and Hungary had over their losses. Looking at things now in terms of "Russia" rather than the USSR may give one a different understanding of what was involved than those at the time had. It's certainly ignoring one aspect of Soviet attitudes.
Hitler's ultimatum was just for show. War had already been decided on.
When Joachim von Ribbentrop refused to give a copy of the German demands to the British Ambassador [Henderson] at midnight of 30–31 August 1939, the two almost came to blows. Ambassador Henderson, who had long advocated concessions to Germany, recognized that here was a deliberately conceived alibi the German government had prepared for a war it was determined to start. No wonder Henderson was angry; von Ribbentrop on the other hand could see war ahead and went home beaming. - Gerhard Weinberg, A World at Arms, A Global History of World War II.
Lazarus:
I basically agree about "it is complicated", in regard to SSSR-Poland situation (not to mention Finland and Baltics). And all these things can be true at the same time. I would just like to point that Stalin himself had particularly tricky and personal relationship with Brest-Litovsk due to Trotsky-Lenin split about that issue, and rewriting history of those events in 30's to recast Trotsky as "Judas-Trotsky" and as a German mercenary, and Stalin as a strategic person who supported Lenin's decision to sign (to recover strength -- which he did).
However, when it comes to Polish-German relationship, and your quote from "Global History of WWII": "Hitler's ultimatum was just for show. War had already been decided on", I have to ask you to take a step back.
So, yes, certainly, on August 30th, but if you go back just two months, you see Poland being bellicose, in the "we have Britain and France with us" sense, refusing to even negotiate properly with Germany.
I think these days even in Britain (at least post 60's) it is widely accepted that allowing Poland to decide "war or peace" in the name of Britain, was a huge misstep. And that is what Zelenski and his supporters are trying to do to Trump.
So, to reiterate: Germany was possibly negotiating with Poland in good faith (at least no contemporary documents showing clearly otherwise), Poland was rejecting completely reasonable proposals, and making threatening moves towards German minority (they were also mistreating Ukrainians), with, indeed, the final ultimatum (and fake attack) just being for show (because Germans knew it will not be accepted).
[Interestingly, this is exactly what Putin told Karlson "Poland behaved badly and war started" (FAFO), which was attacked by everyone here in this very manner, based on very simplified assumptions. This, in no way is meant to reduce the Polish suffering during WWII and afterwards, under communism]
When you look at everything through this lens, it’s clear and predictable. It’s also manufactured, dishonest and disgusting.
And when you look at it realistically, it's precisely opposite of the shit you threw on the wall.
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