October 7, 2023
"When rescuers reached the couple’s campsite, they found the scientists’ mauled bodies, an empty can of bear spray, and their e-readers still open in their crushed tent."
From "Canadian couple killed by 'desperate' grizzly bear were highly skilled hikers who ‘took every precaution’: friends" (NY Post).
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104 comments:
An empty bear spray can, not an empty can of bear spray.
There's the same problem with reported car crashes with an empty bottle of liquor found.
I suppose "taking every precaution" in Canada does not include having a firearm?
Meanwhile:
Federal agencies are planning to reintroduce grizzly bears to northern Oregon.
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/10/02/federal-grizzly-reintroduction-feedback-sought/#:~:text=Each%20of%20the%20plans%20that,reach%20the%20200%2Dbear%20goal.
I’ve always suspected that bear spray is not effective.
More BLM violence. BEAR LIVES MATTER.
The bears are anthropophobic, or seeking dietary opportunities.
were they sleeping? did they have a gun? I think I'd pack a gun. yikes.
Every precaution except for a gun with which to kill the bear.
I note how all the food was properly stored out of the bear's reach except, of course, for the food in the tent.
Wince - My thoughts exactly. They're in grizzly country. Best would be a .45.
Canadian couple killed by 'desperate' grizzly bear
How do they know the bear's mental state?
"were highly skilled hikers who ‘took every precaution’"
Lets wait until all the facts are in, but preliminary analysis would suggest that they may have missed a couple precautions.
He "wore shorts during the colder months".
A “desperate” grizzly bear… undoubtedly driven to desperation by Climate Change®.
My God, what have we wrought!?!?
Actually, .454 Casull was the required "spray".
This is as good a place as any to say Fuck bears. There are way too many now and I won't go out in the woods anymore. It was not like this back in 1975 because they were hunted out. Grizzly or no, I don't care.
Any I'm tired of all the sentimentality about wild animals like bears and wolves. Jesus, people in LA have an orgasm if a coyote comes into their yard.
These creatures were feared and hunted for a reason. Delist and open fire!
I am haunted by what I imagine might have been the couple's last thoughts: "If only we had a gun."
If you're sleeping in your tent and a "desperate" bear attacks you (who can't see where that 500-pound ball of claws and teeth is coming from behind the tent fabric), I don't know that a gun would have made enough of a difference. And even if you could see the bear, and take aim, and deliver 2-3-4 rounds center mass? Still bad odds. To stop a charging grizzly, whose key targets (brain, heart, aorta) are hidden under masses of bone and muscle, is like putting a round exactly through the engine block of a Mack truck coming at you at 30 mph. Bad odds.
But better than no odds.
RIP.
On many other webpage comment sections I would be able to guess the answer. Here, responses would be more surprising.
What sort of firearm would YOU carry, knowing there are bears in the woods?
How do they know the bear's mental state?
It left a manifesto.
"Jenny Gusse and Doug Inglis, both 62, and their dog Skip, were mauled to death by a bear on Sept. 29 inside Banff National Park after their bear spray failed to thwart the beast." (emphasis added)
"…and their dog Skip". The article makes a big deal about how careful they were. But they took a freaking dog into grizzly country! Not careful. Dumb.
We used to backpack in the Canadian Rockies parks every summer. One year we did a 3-week trip, starting in Jasper N.P. and and ending in Mt Robson Provincial Park. At the outset, the ranger warned us to be aware of bears in Jasper specifically. "What about Robson, I asked?". "Bears aren't a concern in Robson", she said. "They're hunted in Robson".
If you go down in the woods today, you're sure of a big surprise
If you go down in the woods today, you'd better go in disguise
For every bear that ever there was
Will gather there for certain because
Today's the day the teddy bears have their picnic
A lesson for all of us. Bring TWO cans of bear spray next time you camp out in grizzly country. — Timothy Treadwell.
Handgun, large caliber, pref. large capacity magazine or spares, if not a revolver. - .44 Mag as a starting point. Their choice of season (pre-hibernation gorging) and bringing Fido were probably not wise decisions.
The wonder is Canada permitted citizens to carry bear spray. Their guns are confiscated and pepper spray is deemed a murder weapon.
But Grizzly bears are now weapons used by the Government to depopulate Mother Earth before masses of subhumans breath out CO2 like the hated cows do.
J.Melcher,
A flamethrower, then a .45 handgun or bigger, then a rifle .45 or larger.
If you can't handle any of those, stay out of bear country.
More like 800 pounds, Owen. About the only other top tier preditor would be a Polar Bear. There is absolutely nothing in their environment that is a threat to them. Other than another grizzly bear. Therefore everything is food. You are food.
In Anchorage if you heard a bear sound and stepped outside, you brought your shotgun.
IIRC, when traveling to AK through Canada, you could transport a shotgun or rifle if you had the required paperwork. Handguns were illegal.
S&W 500 Magnum in a chest holster during the day, in your hand (or next to it) at night.
>J Melcher said...
What sort of firearm would YOU carry, knowing there are bears in the woods?<
I've ventured into the Alaskan wilderness three times. We had bear bells on our shoelaces and always carried .44 mags, which never left our sides. Even with that, we knew we would have to be quick and accurate...and we also knew that that doesn't always happen. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
Bad.
The victims didn't take every precaution. The people who came to rescue them had a gun. Those people took every precaution.
Grizzly bears are not the black bears we have in the continental USA. They are much, much larger. Other than a rifle or shotgun, there are many large-caliber handguns that might work. Because it's dangerous wildlife, you keep shooting until its dead.
They had time to use bear spray, so they had time to use a gun. I am always perplexed by people who try to show that a gun wouldn't have been useful in a situation where it clearly would have been. The bear was shot and killed later, so it's not like it was invulnerable.
I'm sorry these people died.
Also, back in my home town a woman was killed last year by a garden variety black bear while walking her dogs. She wasn't out in the wilderness, either.
I suppose "taking every precaution" in Canada does not include having a firearm?
@Wince, for the past calendar year the Canadian handgun regulations have struck me as weird and capricious. Perhaps a Canadian commentator could elaborate. I don’t hunt but do — did — shoot competitively and many of the other shooters were hunters. When they found out I’d had a black bear on my deck raiding bird feeders they advised me that if I was charged and had a gun, to shoot at the bear’s shoulder to break its charge by breaking its front leg. I hope I never have to find out if they were right.
I have been told that people in Alaska use lever action rifles chambered in .45-70 and/or 10 mm handguns. Revolver cartridges like the .44 magnum and .500 S&W magnum hit much harder than a 10 mm but a Glock 20 has 15 cartridges in its magazine and revolvers are limited to 6. 15 rounds of 10 mm might have convinced the female grizzly to go somewhere else that night.
When I lived in Alaska I would sometimes fish alone. Always carried my .357 magnum for bear protection. An old timer told me to file the front sight off my pistol so when the bear took it away from me and shoved it up my butt it would be less painful.
"There's the same problem with reported car crashes with an empty bottle of liquor found."
Too much of nothing/Can make a man feel ill at ease...
Wince said...
I suppose "taking every precaution" in Canada does not include having a firearm?
Firearms are only good if you know how to use them and are competent enough with them to ensure good shot placement. Shooting a bear center mass isn't necessarily going to stop it, especially if they are enraged or as in the case of this bear; desperate. (Bear was a 25 year old female, quite old for a bear, that was significantly below the fat level for this time of year.) You'd need multiple heart/lung area shots or a few well placed head shots to be sure.
Best strategy is to stay away from places bears frequent, especially during the run up to winter.
Bear spray is effective. I've seen it work. It's just not always effective. Nothing is always effective. There are many stories of grizzly bears hit multiple times with large caliber bullets who go on to maim or kill the shooter. Sure, they die later, but that doesn't help the shooter.
I'm not advocating against carrying a gun, but there are additional hazards to using guns in high stress, rapidly unfolding situations and especially in the dark and with other people around.
I read about a bowhunter last season who was charged at close range by a startled grizzly. He was carrying a Glock 10mm on his chest that he'd practiced quick-drawing in case of bear attack. As the bear quickly closed, the guy drew and started firing. He stepped back, tripped, fell, still firing. IIRC, his feet came up and he hit his own leg. He also managed to hit the bear a few times. The bear mauled him anyway. His hunting partner came up shot the bear some more. It ran off and was found dead later. This was in broad daylight and they hadn't just been woken out of a sound sleep.
The following happened about a month ago:
"While hunting Smokey Range Trailhead off Canyon Creek Road in Whitefish, Montana, the two men came across a female grizzly bear with a cub, a press release from Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks reported.
The hunters unintentionally took the bear by surprise when they entered a dense section of the forest and the startled sow charged at them in an attempt to protect her cub.
As she charged, the men shot at the bear, and brought her down. However, in doing so, one of the men accidentally shot his companion in the shoulder."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hunter-shot-by-partner-attempting-to-kill-grizzly-bear/ar-AA1fZHOt
One time I was sleeping in a large tent with 4 other guys at a campground with a day of rafting planned for the next day. In the middle of the night, I awoke to the sound of something moving around outside the tent. I heard a couple others whisper, "What's that? What's that?" Then I heard the sound of 3 or 4 guys cocking their revolvers. I was like, "Nobody shoot! I'm going to look." When I unzipped the tent and shined my light, it was a doe.
I took my sleeping bag and went and slept in my truck.
The clearly did not take every precaution. They used bear spray without success. Perhaps a gun would have worked better. We'll never know.
Well, duh. What they needed was a can of *anti-bear* spray.
“Wince - My thoughts exactly. They're in grizzly country. Best would be a .45.”
“Actually, .454 Casull was the required "spray"”
I was in Kallispell a couple days ago, and bought a couple more you know what’s. Talking to the clerk there, easily the favorite bear handgun caliber in MT is 10 mm. Why not .45 ACP? 10 mm has comparable power, but the bullets are longer and thinner, which translates to better penetration, and that is the name of the game with bear defense. That means that you carry bear loads, which are extra hard, and not self defense loads, that mushroom. If you could get depleted uranium, a lot of people would happily use them. Pretty much, if you find bear loads by some company in one of those two calibers, they will offer a comparable round in the other. Another reason for 10 mm over .45 ACP is that the bulk of those handguns shooting .45 are 1911s, which typically have single stack magazines holding 7 rounds. Most typical 10 mm bear gun in MT is the Glock 20, with double stack magazines holding 15 rounds. Counting the round in the chamber, that means that the G20 carries twice the bullets that the typical 1911 carries (15+1 vs 7+1). Sometimes that matters. For example, a bear guide was attacked maybe 5 years ago by a black bear, by Raton, NM. He woke in the hospital, having exhausted the 16 rounds in his G20 (he had switched from bear loads to SD rounds, because it was no longer bear season). The bear died with its jaws clamped to his leg, having absorbed most of the 15+1 rounds from his now empty G20.
Why not .454 Casull then? A good friend carries a titanium framed .44 Mag as his bear gun when hunting (I have a lever gun by the front door in that caliber, loaded with bear loads). It kicks like a mule. There is a tradeoff between gun weight and felt recoil. If I carried something like that, I would get one round on target. Follow up shots would be problematic, esp against a charging brown bear. The 10 mm G20 has several advantages there. First, it is easy to train with. I also have a 9 mm G17. They are similar is size, etc. At the range, I will alternate guns, shooting a magazine in each, swapping back and forth. The difference between .44 Mag (or .454 Casull) and 10 mm rounds is significant. But making things better is that .40 S&W is a cut down 10 mm (supposedly for female FBI agents). 10 mm Glocks can safely shoot .40 S&W, which is even cheaper than 10 mm. So, I actually went that route: 9 mm -> .44 S&W -> 10 mm, alternating guns and magazines.
Owen said...
"I am haunted by what I imagine might have been the couple's last thoughts: "If only we had a gun.""
That goes side-by-side with the old joke about someone dying from alternative medicine and thinking "Well, I guess I am NewAge."
I see no purpose in shooting the bear. It's a fucking bear. It didn't do anything unexpected.
Carol said...
"People in LA have an orgasm if a coyote comes into their yard."
Some people. An opossum came into our yard and my Foster Mother made sure it landed in a pot. With a garden hoe, I once saw her kill an armadillo, that ran out of the sewer. I never looked at her the same again after that. There was a school altercation that was so bloody I was traumatized, and had to be sent home. But when I got there, my foster parents were engaged in the massive killing of a bunch of chickens, so there was blood all over the concrete in the backyard, gawking chicken heads with headless bodies running around, etc. I accepted reality and my worldview started being formed sometime around then. On the other hand, the first time I saw in iguana, it was running down the street, and I was sure I'd discovered a dinosaur.
They shoulda decentralized that furry mf-er.
Where’s Grizzly Adams when you need him!
one gun probably wouldn't have made a difference. Two guns definitely would have. Even one gun might have saved one life out of two.
And I wish people would stop attributing good faith to grizzley bears. LOL. They're predators. We're food to them. If they don't kill and eat humans all the time, its because we're more trouble than its worth. Or its easier for them to kill and eat a deer. Or they just aren't in the mood to eat, when they come accross us.
One good side effect of hunting grizzley bears it instills caution and fear in the survivors. They'll think twice about tangling with the species that killed Daddy or Grandma.
Federal agencies are planning to reintroduce grizzly bears to northern Oregon.
Right state, wrong region. If the feds intended to reintroduce grizzlies to just the northwest quadrant, that could be beneficial. Grizzly bears prowling the streets and byways of Portland, chowing down royally on drug-addled street trash sounds like a part of a long-delayed solution to me.
I see people are making black humor jokes about these people's deaths. So, is some leftist now going to show up to finger-wag and quote Jesus?
I doubt it.
I am so glad that, wherever I am, I feel that I am "in nature," so there's no need, pull, or compulsion to go anywhere, risking being further harmed.
That's kind of how atheism works, too. You put your lives in the hands of the holy men. I'm good, thanks.
Bear country precautions:
1) Do not surprise a bear, always wear small bells on you shoelaces so they can hear you coming
2) Carry bear spray
3) Be on the lookout for bear sign, bear scat smells like pepper and has small bells in it.
I haven't been to the range since before COVID... I don't live anywhere close to where grizzlies live and we haven't camped in years, but [shudder] bear attacks make me want to be better prepared anyway.
When our oldest was a tiny infant, seriously like a couple of months old, we took him car camping for the first time. My husband, a man of more frugality than sense at times, hated to pay for camping, so often we'd just go find a Forest Service road and camp at the end of it. In this instance, it didn't sink in until after we were all cozied up in our tent for the night that we were camping at the end of Bear Canyon Road... but believe me, when I heard something rustling around outside the tent, I suddenly remembered that name on the map as if it was in neon.
After a hurried whispered conference in which I completely freaked my husband out, we got ourselves together - car key in his hand, baby in my arms - and busted out of the tent and tumbled into the car, where we slept the rest of the night. There was nothing big out there, in fact we saw nothing at all, but at that point there was no way I was sleeping in a tent with my snack-sized baby.
No guns allowed in Canadian national parks. That said, it’s been decades since the last fatal bear attack in Banff National Park.
So, the thing is that I'm not afraid of death, but certain ways of dying...
Plane crash. Drowning. Bear or shark attack. BTK-type serial killer. Basically anything that takes time, such that I would be 100% aware of and unable to do anything about my impending demise, with extra points for extended pain.
In Canada Trudeau froze all handgun licenses and transfers of handguns... and you have to have permission from the government to take a handgun (if you already had one licensed) into the wilds to protect oneself.
Thus rifles and shotguns (if you have one legally registered.) And Trudeau has said he wants all guns banned there cause no one 'needs' a gun in Canada (except his bodyguards and Nazi police.)
Thus the bear spray... and I have several accounts of bear spray failing..
Guns work pretty well if you can shoot. I would recommend bear spray if you just don't want any guns to protect you... but, as you can see, it fails. Google Todd Orr and his bear spray failure when he was mauled.. TWICE... by a big bear.
Bruce Hayden at 11:29 has a lot of useful insights. Bruce, can you weigh in on whether the advice I received about stopping bear charges by breaking a foreleg makes sense to you?
What Bruce calls SD cartridges are also effective against wolves, more so (I’m told) than bear rounds. In Alaska (I’m told) if they’re carrying a 10 mm then the spare magazines are loaded with hollow point rounds because if you have time for a reload you’re being attacked by wolves, not a bear.
And practice, practice, practice. You need muscle memory to fo the right thing when a roaring, charging bear is shutting down your brain by overloading your bloodstream with adrenalin.
Everything I know about grizzly bears I learned from the documentary Grizzly Man by Werner Herzog.
Wild animals eat easiest to kill food first. In summer with plentiful fish, grizzlies really don’t pay attention to other food sources. Therefore small animals often stay in close proximity to grizzlies - both for protection and eating leftovers. This doesn’t mean grizzlies won’t snack on you - it means you have a better chance of not becoming a meal.
Then comes the onset of winter and fattening up for hibernation. There are fewer food sources and grizzlies will now eat everything they encounter.
The couple eaten by the grizzly bear in Alaska that the documentary was about over stayed their visit and were camping during this pre hibernation time period. It looks like this couple did the same thing.
285exp @11:43,
You owe me a new keyboard.
I wonder why this female bear was underweight? It's the time of year when food should be abundant. Just very sad and no cause for joking.
Sheesh, you people get all bent out of shape about minimal risks. If you are hiking or camping in the back country, you are much more likely to be killed in a fall or hit by lightning than killed by a bear (28 per year killed by lightning as opposed to 3 fatal bear attacks on average). And wolves have killed a grand total of 2 people in North America since 1900.
Rusty @ 10:25: "...More like 800 pounds, Owen." Very likely; certainly if I were choosing my defensive firearm, I would look for something with stopping power in that range. What we forget is how damn much kinetic energy a charging bear carries at you. Even if you empty a magazine center-mass, the shredded body will keep coming.
...The one time I got chased by a grizzly I didn't stop to ask what he weighed. I was on a forested ridge and the whole Earth shook with his approach. Pure s*** luck that I got away (we figured later he wasn't hungry but nervous, driven out of his home ground by forest fires, and he just wanted to get me to leave. Which I did.). I have never since felt very kindly or complacent in territory where there might be bears of any stripe: polar, brown, grizzly, black.
Thanks to all for discussions of best defensive tools. Good to know that Wonder Boy Trudeau doesn't allow them. ...As with illegal migrants, the only way to persuade our leaders to adopt a reasonable policy is to make them feel, directly, the natural consequences of their folly.
"massive killing of a bunch of chickens, so there was blood all over the concrete in the backyard,"
Now THAT's sad! My brother mysteriously refused to eat chicken, for many years. I only recently found out he'd watched our grandfather slaughter them in his backyard.
End of mystery!
Their lives formally came to an end in their windowless... tent.
Let that be a precautionary tale to hikers the world over.
"Talkin’ Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues"
"What sort of firearm would YOU carry, knowing there are bears in the woods?"
That's easy. An M2 Flamethrower:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPQYK5ZMbWY
"Every precaution" would include GUNS. They did not have guns. They did NOT take "every" precaution. If you are UNARMED in country you KNOW has grizzly bears in it and you claim you are a scientist, then you had BETTER be armed or you will be LUNCH.
The media want you to think they took "every precaution." But they didn't. They were STUPID. And the media wants you to be stupid, too.
Don't be stupid.
Hayden touched on something above: for bear- especially a big one- you do not want hollowpoints, too much thick skin & fur, and heavy muscle and bone to get through to hit vitals.
Couple of years ago read a piece by an instructor who runs a firearm school who gathered every report he could on people finding themselves facing bear and mountain lion with only a handgun. On bears you usually needed a solid, non-expanding bullet that could penetrate far enough to hit vitals.
Will throw in the smallest cartridge used successfully was 9mm, the largest .500 S&W Magnum.
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but I have heard that bears do very well on a vegan diet. About three vegans a week seems to be optimum.
Bob Boyd said...
"Bear spray is effective. ..."
Out here in the Rocky Mountain west, the rules of thumb for bear spray usage are:
1) If it's a black bear, try to stay up-wind of the bear and aim the spray at its face.
2) If it's a grizzly bear, aim the spray at your chest and apply liberally. The spray won't stop the grizzly, so you might as well season yourself so you taste better for the bear.
"What sort of firearm would YOU carry, knowing there are bears in the woods? "
I presume you mean grizzly/brown bears. Black bears are not danger free, but I'd scale back my artillery a bit.
First choice: Henry 45-70 lever action. Hits hard at short ranges. Large diameter. Rapid followup shots.
Second choice, 12 gauge pump or semi-auto with slugs. Big, big holes.
Handgun choice. The 10mm mentioned above for penetration.
The 454, 44 mag etc are hard to handle repeat shots. I admit to no experience with the 454 and very limited training with the 44 mag. And, for me, firing full load 44 mags ain't pleasant (I'm old and arthritic). No way I'd practice until proficient.
Love my 45 Gov't model in 45 but that's better on softer targets.
I'd use bear spray to Target security guards that get frisky.
Follow-up story:
https://tinyurl.com/mt9cvvdv
"The grizzly was described by Parks Canada as over 25 years old, with poor teeth and less body fat than usual for this time of year."
"A grizzly bear thought to have killed a couple and their dog in a remote part of Banff National Park also charged a team sent to rescue them."
I should drop my last post. I've let my training level drop precipitously. But a buddy has invited me to salmon fish in the Russan River (AK). Bears a plenty.
Back to the range...
“ Rusty said...
More like 800 pounds, Owen. About the only other top tier preditor would be a Polar Bear. There is absolutely nothing in their environment that is a threat to them. Other than another grizzly bear. Therefore everything is food. You are food.”
Back in the day, the Air Force had several installations in remote parts of Alaska. Some of them are still operational. I read that at least one of the sites had a sign posted at the gate for people on their way out. It read, “You are now part of the food chain.” And not at the top.
The weight of a gun is a problem if you're backpacking (besides being illegal, I guess, in Banff, etc). Not so much if you're out for a day or so, fishing or hiking, but if on a multi-day backcountry trip, really not practical.
We each used to carry a road flare. Likely to be ineffective, but there was some small comfort that you had something to try.
Bing AI:
Yellowstone National Park (YNP) has two species of bears: grizzly bears and black bears. Grizzly bears are larger, have a concave facial profile, and are more aggressive than black bears. Grizzly bears are also less common and have a smaller range than black bears in North America. The number of grizzly bears in the greater Yellowstone area averages around 700-750, but only 100 to 200 live in the park itself. Grizzly bears have killed at least eight people in the Yellowstone region since 2010. Black bears were once fed by visitors along park roads, but this practice was stopped in 1970 to reduce bear-human conflicts and injuries. Both species of bears are active mainly at night and during dawn and dusk.
They were warned -- or should have been.
Freder Frederson said...
"Sheesh, you people get all bent out of shape about minimal risks. If you are hiking or camping in the back country, you are much more likely to be killed in a fall or hit by lightning than killed by a bear (28 per year killed by lightning as opposed to 3 fatal bear attacks on average). And wolves have killed a grand total of 2 people in North America since 1900."
Try not to be a putz, Freder.
More people are killed by black bears than grizzley bears.
"and their e-readers still open in their crushed tent."
Those e-readers must have good batteries.
Freder,
What point do you think you are making here? I gather a great number of the commenters you are trying to mock here actually have gone camping in bear country. Is the fact that they recommend bringing a large gun that is bothering you so much? Since even falling or being hit by lightning is also a pretty small risk- surely smaller than driving 500 miles to get to the campsite- do you advocate they not worry about seeking shelter in a storm or not bother bringing a phone or radio transmitter when hiking alone?
I don’t like grizz. I carry 10mm but not sure it will help. Lots of ‘Hey Bear!’
“Couple of years ago read a piece by an instructor who runs a firearm school who gathered every report he could on people finding themselves facing bear and mountain lion with only a handgun. On bears you usually needed a solid, non-expanding bullet that could penetrate far enough to hit vitals.”
We have black and brown bears, wolves, mountain lions, and esp coyotes in the county. Luckily, the brown bears usually stay on the north ridge, and the wolves on the south ridge. As noted, you want expanding SD ammo for the wolves, mountain lions, and coyotes. Bear loads tend to be harder than target loads - often what is called “solid cast”. Depleted uranium would be best, but hard to get (legally). You need penetration, more than anything else. We mostly see black bears around town. For my G20, I have one mag loaded with bear loads, one with SD loads, and one alternating, and load the one most appropriate - though the range of wolves and black bears overlap. I also will carry bear spray around the house, because we encounter a lot of black bears, and I would much prefer spraying them, to shooting them. Even better to avoid them. Last year, out walking the dog, about a hundred yards from the house, the dog alerted, and pulled back. Then I heard the distinctive “woof”. We went a different way.
“The weight of a gun is a problem if you're backpacking (besides being illegal, I guess, in Banff, etc). Not so much if you're out for a day or so, fishing or hiking, but if on a multi-day backcountry trip, really not practical.”
That’s why that friend carries a titanium framed .44 Mag as his bear gun - it’s reasonably light. But that also means that the recoil is significant. In my lever gun, it’s tolerable. And, yes, my next one will be a 45-70. He has a Guide model, that looks really sharp.
=== Buckwheathikes said...===
== "Every precaution" would include GUNS. They did not have guns. They did NOT take "every" precaution. If you are UNARMED in country you KNOW has grizzly bears in it and you claim you are a scientist, then you had BETTER be armed or you will be LUNCH.” ==
LOL. You will be “lunch”? Have you ever even been in the backcountry?
@ Daddy Binx
We tell people like you all kinds of things when they show up out here. It's kinda mean, but kinda fun too. Seriously tho, Bud, don't spray yourself if you see a bear. That's not really a rule.
Yup. I’m in MT Glock 20. Cliche. My feeling is better than nothing. Some of my buds have a ham hock or whatever. ‘Hey bear’’ Is my best defense…
I dunno. Not hiking where grizzly bears live seems like a basic precaution.
Original Mike @ 4:10: “…road flare.” Interesting idea. Probably frowned upon by park authorities —it could light up the forest— but OTOH it would act as a funeral pyre and allow the rescue team to find your remains.
More seriously I wonder if a ring of Claymore mines might do the job? Fewer worries over recoil, penetration, etc. Can an ordnance expert opine here?
Following shots with any firearm are much easier if you Mag Na Port it.
"Original Mike @ 4:10: “…road flare.” Interesting idea. Probably frowned upon by park authorities…"
We actually got the idea from a Jasper park ranger.
Freder being Freder. Never miss an attempt to be an ass. 28 lightning deaths per year is in the entire US.
Bear spray is effective? I was just reading the bears like that spicy taste of the spray and consider the people who carry it “Cajun food”. 😆
A reminder that no matter how experienced you are in the wilderness that there are limits and risks. I’ve done lots of backpacking and wilderness camping over the years, but in the few parks left in the US where grizzlies roam, I just don’t backpack. I've been like that for years. I’ve day hiked in Glacier and Banff, for instance, but that was enough risk for me.
Remember that in the wilderness, you join the food chain.
"desperate"?
so.. of ALL the people killed by lightning.. HOW MANY were in Bear country?
If Bears are a problem in (say) 5% of the outside, and lightning is a problem WHENEVER you are outside..
Doesn't THAT MEAN? that you'd need to multiply the bear killings by 20?
Which would make bear killings MUCH more likely (IN BEAR COUNTRY) than lightning?
Freder Frederson said...
Sheesh, you people get all bent out of shape about minimal risks. If you are hiking or camping in the back country, you are much more likely to be killed in a fall or hit by lightning than killed by a bear (28 per year killed by lightning as opposed to 3 fatal bear attacks on average).
Yes, Freder, that’s what Jenny Gusse and Doug Inglis figured. But “minimal risk” is not zero risk, and bring torn apart by a bear does not strike me as a pleasant way to die. YMMV
An old Alaska type, knowing the likelihood of a newbie to panic, said:” lie flat on your back, the gun in both hands, barrel pointing straight up. When all you can see is brown fur, start pulling the trigger.”
@Owen, you’d need 6 or 7 Claymores to cover 360 degrees, they weigh 3.5 pound apiece, and they’re bulky.
Bob Boyd,
Proud resident of Idaho for more than 30 years; I've spent more time in the Frank Church Wilderness than I can recall. The bear spray guidelines are for all the West Coast folks moving into the state. My personal bear strategy is to keep a clean camp and make sure I'm not the slowest guy in the group. ;)
Try not to be a putz, Freder.
More people are killed by black bears than grizzley bears.
And your point is? The number I cited was for all bear attacks, not just grizzlies. And yes, I have camped in bear country without a firearm, and miraculously I am still alive. I was more concerned about a hail (baseball sized )and a thunderstorm than I was ever about bears
Proud resident of Idaho for more than 30 years
Since you're relatively new to the area, I'll cut you some slack in interest of being neighborly. Welcome, friend. ;)
@Daddy Binx, according to friends it’s not possible to run a cleaner camp than the one Jenny Gusse and Doug Inglis set up.
Desperado
why don't you come to your senses?
You've been out eatin’ mences for so long now
Oh, you're a fat one
I know that you got your reasons
These things with good seasoning
Are mighty good chow
when i was planning my fishing trip up Slough Creek in the Lamar valley of Yellowstone,
i quickly learned 2 things:
* never, EVER go up there alone
* don't go with a group of less than 4
Are you safer in a national park than in an inner city?
Wouldn’t work in a tent, but if you’re hiking with someone else all you need is a pistol in .22 LR for a charging grizzly. Shoot your companion in the knee as you high tail it out of there.
And yes, I have camped in bear country without a firearm, and miraculously I am still alive.
Well, Freder, keep on doing that. Forget what I wrote upthread about there being a difference between “minimal risk” and zero risk.
When I camped in AK the guide carried a 12-gauge and used it several times. He didn't shoot the bears; he shot the gun if the bears came near the camp, to scare the bears away with the noise.
He had other guns as well, but told us that if a bear charged we were probably all going to be dead anyway.
The area was very wild; apparently the closer you get to "civilization" the less likely the bears are going to be scared away by noise.
Bob Boyd said...
"Since you're relatively new to the area, I'll cut you some slack in interest of being neighborly. Welcome, friend. ;)"
Thanks. In our little town, anyone not a 3rd generation native isn't considered "from around here."
Blogger Big Mike said...
"@Daddy Binx, according to friends it’s not possible to run a cleaner camp than the one Jenny Gusse and Doug Inglis set up."
Yeah, you can do every right and still end up on the menu of an apex predator. Go figure.
You are prey. The minute you leave your front door something is out to eat you. Bugs, rodents whatever. It is pur arrogance to walk into the wilderness and tell yourself, "I'm master of all I survey!" No. Your not.
Freder: Sheesh, you people get all bent out of shape about minimal risks. If you are hiking or camping in the back country, you are much more likely to be killed in a fall or hit by lightning than killed by a bear (28 per year killed by lightning as opposed to 3 fatal bear attacks on average). And wolves have killed a grand total of 2 people in North America since 1900.
Why is it progressives are so innumerate? When it comes to risk, it isn't quantity that matters, but rather rate. And for that, you need to know N — the population at risk. For lightning strikes, it is virtually the entire US. For bear attacks, it is down to only those who are in the back country. Get back to us when you figure out the relative risk.
My wife and I went hiking in Yellowstone a couple months ago. All the trail heads had signs about bear awareness. They all recommended carrying bear spray. Not one mention of guns, which have been allowed in National Parks since the Bush administration. (Remember all the bleating from the Left about that decision? Predictions of gun fights in the camp sites? Never happened.)
I carried a .44 mag — it is painful to shoot with magnum loads, so I'm not proficient enough with it. I have a Henry 30-30, but it is just too bulky for hiking.
No one has mentioned an AR-15. Light, 30 rounds, little recoil, and good penetration. With a red dot sight, it is very accurate.
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