December 28, 2021

"On any given afternoon, Bongino might read advertisements for survivalist food rations ('Act now, and your order will be shipped quickly and discreetly to your door in unmarked boxes') and shotguns and massage chairs and filet mignon and holsters..."

"... 'custom-molded to fit your exact firearm for a quick, smooth draw.' In between, he supplies listeners with a tight rotation of political hits—a jab at the 'pino' ('President in name only'), followed by a savaging of the press ('Don’t ever call me a journalist, that’s an insult')—interspersed with dispatches from the culture wars (a ruckus over the use of 'jedi' as an acronym for 'justice, equality, diversity, and inclusion,' which prompted Bongino to cry, 'They can’t cancel "Star Wars"!').... Bongino, like other prominent [Trump] supporters, seems to put increasing stock in what researchers refer to as 'blue lies,' the kinds of claims that pull believers together and drive skeptics away....  Bongino is also adept at the 'accusation in a mirror' approach—co-opting the language and strategies of his opponents.... Nothing, though, has proved more potent than the constant regeneration of fear.... 'These people want you dead,' he said, and offered a call to action. 'The activism has to be dialled up times ten. These people are crazy....'...  In his punditry, Bongino talks about fear all the time. 'Fear has always been the Democrats’ coin of the realm,' he told podcast listeners in June. 'How else are they going to coax you into delivering them your civil liberties and freedom? They do it through things like coronavirus.' In a mock orator’s voice, he said, 'Give up your right to assemble!'"


I don't think I'd ever noticed the term "blue lies" before. Here's an article from 2017 in Scientific American — "How the Science of 'Blue Lies' May Explain Trump’s Support/They are a very particular form of deception that can build solidarity within groups." We're told it's "a psychologist’s term for falsehoods, told on behalf of a group, that can actually strengthen bonds among the members of that group":
Children start to tell selfish lies at about age three, when they discover adults cannot read their minds: I didn’t steal that toy. Daddy said I could. He hit me first. At around age seven, they begin to tell white lies motivated by feelings of empathy and compassion: That’s a good drawing. I love socks for Christmas. You’re funny.

Blue lies are a different category altogether, simultaneously selfish and beneficial to others—but only to those who belong to your group. As University of Toronto psychologist Kang Lee explains, blue lies fall in between generous white lies and selfish “black” ones. “You can tell a blue lie against another group,” he says, which makes it simultaneously selfless and self-serving. “For example, you can lie about your team’s cheating in a game, which is antisocial but helps your team.”

In a 2008 study of seven, nine and 11-year-old children, Lee and his colleagues found that children become more likely to endorse and tell blue lies as they grow older. For example, given an opportunity to lie to an interviewer about rule breaking in the selection process of a school chess team, many were quite willing to do so, older kids more than younger ones. The children telling this lie did not stand to selfishly benefit; they were doing it on behalf of their school. This line of research finds that black lies drive people apart, white lies draw them together and blue lies pull some people together while driving others away....

That explains why most Americans seem to accept that our intelligence agencies lie in the interests of national security, and we laud our spies as heroes. From this perspective, blue lies are weapons in intergroup conflict. As philosopher Sissela Bok once said, “Deceit and violence—these are the two forms of deliberate assault on human beings.” Lying and bloodshed are often framed as crimes when committed inside a group—but as virtues in a state of war.

This research—and these stories—highlights a difficult truth about our species: we are intensely social creatures, but we are prone to divide ourselves into competitive groups, largely for the purpose of allocating resources. People can be prosocial—compassionate, empathetic, generous, honest—in their group and aggressively antisocial toward out-groups. When we divide people into groups, we open the door to competition, dehumanization, violence—and socially sanctioned deceit....
It is in blue lies that the best and worst in humanity can come together. They reveal our loyalty, our ability to cooperate, and our capacity to care about the people around us and to trust them. At the same time, blue lies display our predisposition to hate and dehumanize outsiders and our tendency to delude ourselves....

There's SO much blue lying out there! It's hard to get along with people if you don't go in for it.  

97 comments:

Clyde said...

I remember the days when Scientific American was a magazine dedicated to science, not politics. The election of Trump broke them, along with a lot of other liberals. As for the label of "blue lies," I'd be more likely to apply such a label to the lies and disinformation told by the blue side of the aisle and their flying monkeys in the media. If we're going to use a color for so-called lies by Republicans/conservatives, call them "red lies."

Ann Althouse said...

Clearly, both parties do blue lies. The color blue is symbolic of loyalty.

David Begley said...

“the kinds of claims that pull believers together and drive skeptics away”

And so Bongino is a practitioner of blue lies that promote fear? Try all the bullshit blue lies that Fauci and the Fake News told about covid. These fucking blue lies have destroyed a generation of children.

The Left has no self-awareness.

Lexington Green said...

Ds and media will refer exclusively to “blue lies” by their enemies, itself a blue lie.

exhelodrvr1 said...

This article, pointed primarily st the right, is itself a huge exame of "blue lies". After all the Russian collusion bullshit, etc.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Example

rhhardin said...

Any analysis of what "we" do is crap. Substitute "I" for it while reading it.

rhhardin said...

What if all you liked about Trump was his ability to always see that deals have to benefit both sides, otherwise there should be no deal.

Mr. Forward said...

What color was Hunter Biden’s laptop?

rwnutjob said...

"Media Matters"
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Bilwick said...

So do "liberals" (i.e., "coercion-addicted, power-tripping State fellators") actually refute these "blue lies"? And by "refute" I mean employing actual facts and logic? Usually when "liberals" accuse people in the pro-freedom camp of lying it's the secular equivalent of simply yelling "heresy! Heresy!"

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

While the term blue lies is new to me, it’s something we can all see right in front of us all the time. The phrase that really struck me though was the headline with “big business of returning Trump to power” howler. Can anything Bongino undertakes come anywhere near the disbursement of Zuck Bucks to “select districts” last year to boost Democrat and only Democrat GOTV efforts at the CD or County level? Will these mythical sums come anywhere near the in-kind contributions of every DNC-Media outfit that heaped scorn on Trump and propped Biden up as Mr. Return-to-normal last year, going so far as to actually repress news about Hunter and Ashley and the other scummy Biden clan?

mezzrow said...

The interstate is jammed and crammed with exhaust mist
It only leads to somewhere you'll never miss
You'll never miss

Get on the blue highways, follow the blue highways
You know that they're there, you know that they're there
Where the real america lies
The rusty chrome, the shutters swing open and closed
Don't knock that door, don't knock it, nobody's home
The blood runs cold, the blood runs cold
There must be gold where fools are
That's what we are, that's what we are

Get on the blue highways, follow the blue highways
You know that they're there, you know that they're there
Where the real America lies


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQNdWQEMgdM&ab_channel=dontbringmedown1900

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

To agree with and extend Bilwick’s comment: most the time things the Left and Media call “lies” are facts inconvenient to leftists, which they damn with their feint, “he said, providing no evidence,” a phrase they never saddle progressives assertions with.

Big Mike said...

In a funny coincidence I went from reading this post to reading this one:

”It's the same reason that 99% of all so-called "hate crimes" turn out to be hoaxes; white supremacy, white nationalism and institutional racism - all the things the Democrat Party claim are major threats that they claim to be fighting - are either no longer extant in society or never existed in the first place.

Plus calling January 6th an “insurrection” and trying to sell the lie that a Capitol Police officer was killed by an assault with a fire extinguisher instead of dying from a stroke at home.

@Althouse, you had some posts last week that were religious in nature; how about you read Matthew 7:5?

Does it matter said...

In any real conflict one sides "lies" are the other sides "truths". The peace dividend has been priceless here in the homeland. Lets hope we keep the peace. Everyday Americans that used to sit on the sidelines are getting caught up in the cult of idealogy and personalities and choosing sides. The reality is our institutions are failing us and congress has been broken far too long. When more states feel compelled to take over and kick the feds out things will only get worse. The "United"States is changing and in turmoil. We need something to bring us together. Unfortuneately that is usually war.

Temujin said...

Great. Now do Rachel Maddow.

Scot said...

Alternate theory: both The New Yorker and Bongino just want more advertisers, so each invents blue lies to garner larger audiences. When something with a higher Q score comes along, they'll move on from Trump. Gotta sell tickets!

Richard said...

I think that guy from "Friends" said something like, "It isn't a lie if it's true. "
The grim, drooling satisfaction you hear from Very Nice Church Ladies about the death of Babbitt is a minor note in "they want you dead".

Leland said...

I guess Charleston would be an example of blue lies? Oh maybe "Rittenhouse crossed state lines"?

Darkisland said...

Blogger mezzrow said...

Get on the blue highways, follow the blue highways

That reminds me: in 1982 Bill Trogdon wrote "Blue Highways" about a journey around the US in a van sticking to the blue, non-interstate, highways.

He later wrote another book "River Horse" about taking a 25' outboard from New York to Portland(?)

Both are excellent books.

Trogdon has some indian background but not a lot. He writes as Willing Least Heat Moon and pretends to be an Indian (as in Native American or DEAP)

Is this an example of a "Blue Lie" done in the service of selling books?

John LGBTQBNY Henry

Birches said...

Only tangential to the discussion, since Althouse's excerpt featured advertisements on Bongino's show.

Hilarious. And true. Ryan Long's Leftwing sponsors vs. Rightwing Sponsors

Readering said...

Isn't this the guy in danger of losing his radio gig for defying employer's mandate to get vaccinated?

MikeR said...

Well, I just visited my mother, may she be well. She watches Rachel Maddow regularly, so I got to hear it a few times. Literally two (thirty) minutes of hate. It is perfectly clear when you listen to it: The goal is never whatever she's talking about. The goal is to make my mother hate Republicans, and it's pretty effective.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

Scientific American has been a fountain of lies for decades now. I was an avid reader from my teenage years up until the 1990s. They'd dumbed-down their magazine around 1990 to gin up more subscriptions. They'd also kept promoting the global warming lie. Anything in their copy is to be assumed to be a lie unless proved otherwise.

farmgirl said...

“Antifa isn’t a group of people- it’s an idea” … like that blue lie?
What color of a lie would that be?

A lie is a lie.
And there’s a little bit of truth in everything you say.

Bob Boyd said...

Since Rush died, I find I don't listen to talk radio anymore.

I think the golden age of talk radio is over. Podcasts are killing it off.

CJinPA said...

Nothing, though, has proved more potent than the constant regeneration of fear....

Wow. That guy sounds like a dangerous fear-monger. What's the title of this sober, level-headed piece?

"Dan Bongino and the Big Business of Returning Trump to Power/The Secret Service agent turned radio host is furious at liberals—so he’s trying to build a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024"

Bob Boyd said...

Isn't this the guy in danger of losing his radio gig for defying employer's mandate to get vaccinated?

As I understand it, Bongino is vaccinated himself, but threatened to walk over syndicator Cumulus Media's company-wide mandate on its employees. Don't know how or if that has played out yet.

Maynard said...

Clearly, both parties do blue lies. The color blue is symbolic of loyalty.

I agree.

However, it appears that social science has confirmed beyond reasonable doubt that the lies told by and for conservatives are far worse and more damaging than the small lies told by liberals. The former lies latter threaten our very democracy.

Big Mike said...

Mike of Snoqualmie said...
Scientific American has been a fountain of lies for decades now


That was my experience as well. It’s as if they hired the entire editorial staff from the Journal of Irreproducible Results.

Rollo said...

'Don’t ever call me a journalist, that’s an insult'

Osnos isn't doing anything to prove Bongino wrong.

In this article as in his attack on Manchin last week, snobbery seems to be his starting point. The rap against the New Yorker was that, rather than tell you about something, it prescribed the attitude one had to have about the thing. That's true more than ever, and more than ever, it's tribal.

Everybody in politics "lies blue" to the point where a better, less polemical phrase is needed to describe the phenomenon. In politics, at least, we do "live by the stories we tell." And those stories --Russiagate, for example-- keep the tribe together, rather than describe real world events.

Jamie said...

The former lies [told by those on the right] threaten our very democracy.

They threaten our very existence, I am regularly assured. Whereas the latter lies, the small, necessary lies told by those on the left, will bring about the Age of Aquarius. Or was it the Rapture? Something like that.

On a more positive note, my daughter tells me that some TikTok guy who says the only real way for white people to be allies is to stop having children and die out is unpopular even with BIPOC, specifically because such a view is racist. Truly I do find this a reason for a bit of optimism, since I live in the particular house of interwebs where I hear about those who espouse such opinions, and I'm sure I tend to afford them greater importance and influence than they actually have. (My husband is made of sterner stuff and visits other houses, reporting his discoveries to me so I don't have to.)

But unfortunately views one click down from there - that the only way for me and my kids to be allies (if I aspired to that goal) is to acknowledge that I am filled with uncleansable Original Sin and must perform acts of expiation all my life - appear to be the platform of that movement. So, if the young folk are rejecting the most egregious form of this movement, I feel only that bit of optimism.

Sebastian said...

Already covered in other posts, but still, here's the first paragraph in the linked article:

"Donald Trump tells lies. His deceptions and misleading statements are easy to unmask. In one example—among hundreds of well-documented lies—FBI director James Comey told Congress in March that there is “no information that supports” Trump’s claim that President Barack Obama tapped his phone."

Which is itself a blue lie, part of the biggest blue lie in American political history.

The difference between Bongino and the blue blue liars is that they have real power.

Robert Cook said...

"The peace dividend has been priceless here in the homeland. Lets hope we keep the peace."

What peace dividend? What peace?

We've been at war in various places around the world for decades, and the War Department continues to receive greater and greater budget increases each year. The peace dividend refers to the funding that would not have been directed to the War Department anymore--given the absence of war--but would have been directed to useful purposes domestically for the benefit of the people. The people got and continue to get shit.

Gahrie said...

Were "Kavanaugh is a rapist" and "Sandmann is a racist" examples of Blue lies? How about Anita Hill's pubic hair? George Bush's SR-71 flight?

Name some comparable blue lies from the Republican side.

Gahrie said...

But unfortunately views one click down from there - that the only way for me and my kids to be allies (if I aspired to that goal) is to acknowledge that I am filled with uncleansable Original Sin and must perform acts of expiation all my life -

My niece insists that her White relatives are racist and her Hispanic relatives are pure and honorable, even though her White relatives have been far more supportive of her than her Hispanic ones. My parents are pissed, I'm simply resigned.

hombre said...

Maynard wrote: “... it appears that social science has confirmed beyond reasonable doubt that the lies told by and for conservatives are far worse and more damaging than the small lies told by liberals.”

Bwahahahaha! “Social science has confirmed ....” Good one, Maynard!

Wince said...

How about the "blue playbook"? Always accuse the other side of what you're doing.

In his punditry, Bongino talks about fear all the time. 'Fear has always been the Democrats’ coin of the realm,' he told podcast listeners in June. 'How else are they going to coax you into delivering them your civil liberties and freedom? They do it through things like coronavirus.'

Readering said...
Isn't this the guy in danger of losing his radio gig for defying employer's mandate to get vaccinated?

Jamie said...

This pair of images - if my link works - is a blue-lie visual: Aaron Rogers and some reporter standing at the proper social distance, followed by someone's picture of the two of them hugging once the cameras were turned off.

Amadeus 48 said...

I personally will never forgive the ignorant, ahistorical US news media for obliterating the long and honorable tradition of "red" (the Red Flag, Red China, the Red Army) for the Left and "blue" (true blue Tories) for the Right.

A polite person would say, well, the media wanted to break up convention. An impolite person would say they don't know their ass from their elbow.

Darkisland said...

so he’s trying to build a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024"

Don't know why he would need to do that. He already has the infrastructure. You don't really need a lot of infrastructure for what he is doing. Sure, Sirus and other platforms make it easier but hardly necessary.

And the MONSTER platform in the room is PEDJT's Truthsocial.com They've raised $1.5 from investors, not donors. It will be a Mastodon site which is uncancellable and open source. They got Devin Nunes to leave his congressional seat to run it.

I love the name "Truth". Whatever else Donald Trump may or may not have accomplished over the years he has proven himself a master at branding. Look at the "Fake News" brand that CNN et al tried to establish. Who owns that brand?

By June we are going to see "Truth" and think MAGA. CNN et al is going to try to be the source for truth and all they will do is make people think of Truthsocial where the truth really resides.

The other thing is that CNN is being kneecapped little by little. Remember that fake pedo conspiracy of a couple years ago with Comet Pizza and all? Now at CNN. Remember how you used to see CNN at airports? Gone. CNN shut that business down. Company value way down.

It is almost like someone is running it down so he can buy it on the cheap. John Malone who heads one of the largest cable networks has talked about buyng CNN and straigtening them out. Could he be behind CNNs demise?

John Henry

hombre said...

“Blue lies” is certainly susceptible to more than one interpretation. For those who are not devotees of social “science,” for example “blue lies” might refer particularly to lies told by those of blue persuasion to further their political aims.

More specifically, let’s look at “Deceit and violence—these are the two forms of deliberate assault on human beings.” Taking into consideration the Trump-Russia scam, the January 6th “insurrection” flimflam, both impeachments, media self-censorship, the BLM/Antifa “mostly peaceful” riots and the like, who is engaging in the most seditious form of blue lying and violence? One need not even delve into the election irregularities or Covid tyranny to make the point.

Jamie said...

A polite person would say [about the reversal of "red" for left and "blue" for right], well, the media wanted to break up convention. An impolite person would say they don't know their ass from their elbow.

A suspicious person would say they wanted to cozen low-information ears and eyeballs from the other side into believing that left is right, so to speak.

gspencer said...

Rush Limbaugh, Howie Carr, others (like Rush's Buck & Clay replacements) in so-called conservative talk radio, are out for Rush, Howie, those others. Do this little observation. Start with 60 minutes. Now subtract from 60 all the minutes for news/weather and all the frappin' ads these shows have. Your net will be about 35 minutes.

wendybar said...

Maynard said...


However, it appears that social science has confirmed beyond reasonable doubt that the lies told by and for conservatives are far worse and more damaging than the small lies told by liberals. The former lies latter threaten our very democracy.

12/28/21, 9:07 AM

And the Russian Hoax lies (for example, and there are MANY MORE I CAN LIST) aren't threatening our democracy?? What planet do you live on??

Michael K said...

Scientific American went looney left decades ago.

Michael K said...

On a more positive note, my daughter tells me that some TikTok guy who says the only real way for white people to be allies is to stop having children and die out is unpopular even with BIPOC, specifically because such a view is racist.

In an essay about teaching in a black majority school in the South, the teacher asked the black children what would happen if all white people vanished or died off. "We be fucked" was the answer. Those kids were more realistic than the NY Times writers,

Greg The Class Traitor said...

"what researchers refer to as 'blue lies,' the kinds of claims that pull believers together and drive skeptics away.... Bongino is also adept at the 'accusation in a mirror' approach—co-opting the language and strategies of his opponents...."

"Clearly, both parties do blue lies. The color blue is symbolic of loyalty."


So, simple question: what are the Right's "blue lies"?

Not "what are the Right's statements that you don't like but can't disprove" (note: have auditors visited every single one of the 160k new "permanent invalid" WI voters, and established that they all exist and are legal WI voters? No? Then you can't prove teh WI vote wasn't stolen), what are the lies, knowingly false statements, that the Right presses?

I eagerly await responses

Yancey Ward said...

Bongino has hit the big time!

Robert Cook said...

"(note: have auditors visited every single one of the 160k new "permanent invalid" WI voters, and established that they all exist and are legal WI voters? No? Then you can't prove teh WI vote wasn't stolen)"

No one has to prove it wasn't stolen. Those who claim it was stolen have the obligation to prove it was. They remain unable to do so.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Red v Blue in American politics:

The rule was the Party of the incumbent President was Blue, the out Party was Red. This meant in 2000 with Clinton the incumbent, the Dems got blue and the GOP got red

The journalists started writing articles about Red States, Blue States, like this: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/12/one-nation-slightly-divisible/376441/ either ignorantly or maliciously trying to freeze the colors. The trick worked, and it's unlike to change now

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Robert Cook said...
"(note: have auditors visited every single one of the 160k new "permanent invalid" WI voters, and established that they all exist and are legal WI voters? No? Then you can't prove teh WI vote wasn't stolen)"

No one has to prove it wasn't stolen. Those who claim it was stolen have the obligation to prove it was. They remain unable to do so.


To overturn the election we have to prove it was stolen.

To prove we're lying you have to prove it was not stolen.

Which you can't do, because teh Democrats explicitly set out to make an election where fraud was easy to do and hard to detect, and since then have fought tooth and nail to prevent any audits to detect it.

Here's the deal: do you want your election victory to look real? Then you have to not engage in actions that make it look fraudulent.

Like "discovering" boxes of votes when the count's almost all in and it looks like your side will lose

Like shutting down vote counting on election night while your side is behind, and there are still votes in to count

Like blocking poll watchers from observing the poll workers

Like illegally changing the voting rules to favor fraud

The Dems did the first in Seattle in 2004 to steal the Governor's race. They did all the rest in 2020, which is why no honest person can ever claim that 2020 was an honest election. The Democrats made it impossible to prove that they hadn't stolen teh election. And when one does that, the only proper belief is they did that because they were stealing the election.

43k votes. That's Biden's margin of "victory". And given the actions of the Democrat "vote counters", there's no longer any possible way to prove those votes were legitimate.

Acknowledging that reality doesn't mark us as the liars

James K said...

No one has to prove it wasn't stolen. Those who claim it was stolen have the obligation to prove it was. They remain unable to do so.

Inability to prove an assertion does not make it a "lie." Mail-in voting is amenable to undetectable fraud, which is why it's never been allowed anywhere until the 2020 US election. All of the audits simply recount the same potentially fraudulent votes. There is no way to determine whether all those mail-in votes were valid. The only solution is to prohibit mail-in voting in all future elections.

You might as well say belief in God is a "lie," since God's existence can't be proven.

iowan2 said...

I echo Yancy. Bongino is over the target. When take down pieces target your work, people are scared.

mikee said...

Robert Cook: The problem with the 2020 vote is that with universal mailed ballots, drop boxes, lack of chain of custody, social distancing during ballot counts, closure of vote centers to observers, late entry of supposedly valid ballots after election day, and so on, there is no way to prove or disprove whether many, many votes are valid or not.

If that doesn't seem a problem to you worth solving before the next elections, I'll just note that both sides can play games with unverifiable ballots and unauditable vote counts. Both sides shouldn't be able to do so, and neither side should be able to do so, as well.

If you aren't addressing the actual issue with the last election, which is lack of verification of voter legitimacy and loss of chain of custody of votes, you either don't understand the problem or are being disingenuous.

gilbar said...

Greg The Class Traitor said...
The rule was the Party of the incumbent President was Blue, the out Party was Red. This meant in 2000 with Clinton the incumbent, the Dems got blue and the GOP got red

Bullsh*t!
Traditional political mapmakers, at least throughout the 20th century, had used blue to represent the modern-day Republicans. This may have been a holdover from the Civil War, during which the predominantly Republican north was considered "blue".

Later, in the 1888 presidential election, Grover Cleveland and Benjamin Harrison used maps that coded blue for the Republicans, the color perceived to represent the Union and "Lincoln's Party", and red for the Democrats


NBC continued its color scheme (blue for Republicans) until 1996.[1] NBC newsman David Brinkley famously referred to the 1980 election map outcome showing Republican Ronald Reagan's 44-state landslide as resembling a "suburban swimming pool".[14]

They Changed it, because RED==COMMIE CR*P, and the Commie Cr*p that run the media didn't want people thinking that democrats were Commie Cr*p (since They WERE)

Michael K said...

It sure is interesting that all the lefties who swear the election was clean and on the up and up fight any attempt to prove they are correct.

Wonders never cease.

Robert Cook said...

"To prove we're lying you have to prove it was not stolen."

Why does anyone have to prove "you" are lying?

The burden of proving anything regarding the alleged "theft" of the 2020 election lies solely with those making the claim the election was stolen. Those who who accept the election as valid have no obligation to prove it wasn't stolen or that those claiming it was stolen are lying. It's irrelevant if such claimants are lying. (I'm pretty certain most adherents to the claim of a stolen election do actually believe it. Such belief, however, does nothing to prove the truth of their claims.)

Rollo said...

Aren't "blue lies" essentially myths, things that may or may not be true but are believed by groups as a way of promoting unity and group identity?

Calling such ideas and utterances "myths" or "blue lies," though, is a way of discrediting them without ever examining whether they might actually be true. Labeling something a "blue lie" may itself be a blue lie. And one has to keep hitting Trump and the right as liars who spread myths so that nobody asks if one is telling the truth oneself.

Rollo said...

Before color TV, the red states and the blue states were both just different shades of gray.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

Robert Cook: The Democrats need to prove that the vote count was honest. That they followed all procedures and that all the ballots are valid. The biggest disputed locations are the big counties in Georgia (Atlanta/Fulton), Michigan (Detroit/Wayne), Pennsylvania (Philadelphia and Pittsburg/Allegany) and Wisconsin (Madison/Dane). In all of those counties, the vote counting was halted at around 11:00 p.m. election day when Donald Trump was way ahead of Joe Biden. Then during the night/morning, when they were not counting votes, they announced new vote totals with Joe Biden leading narrowly. How could they have new vote totals if they weren't counting?

The Maricopa County audit found about a 40,000 invalid ballots, that's about 2% of Maricopa's vote total. That's an unacceptable error rate. Would you fly on a 737 if you knew that 2% of the rivets were fraudulent, that they didn't meet Boeing's specs for strength and corrosion resistance? They might hold the wing onto the body, but know one knows what structure they hold together?

Conduct audits in those suspect county, show that all the ballots are valid and all procedures were followed. They won't do that because they know they can never prove that. Show that the maximum error rate was less than 0.1% and then everyone would accept the results instead of at least a 1/3 of the voters thinking there was massive fraud.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Robert Cook said...
"To prove we're lying you have to prove it was not stolen."

Why does anyone have to prove "you" are lying?


Because, moron, my statement was "if you want to claim that 'the 2020 election was stolen' is a 'blue lie', you have to prove it's a lie."

If your answer is "hey, there are no GOP 'blue lies', only the Left does those", I'll be happy to agree with you. If not, what are the GOP "blue lies"?

Douglas B. Levene said...

“Blue lies,” huh? Kinda like the claims that Trump and Putin conspired to steal the 2016 election by phishing John Podesta’s emails? Those kind of lies?

Robert Cook said...

"If you aren't addressing the actual issue with the last election, which is lack of verification of voter legitimacy and loss of chain of custody of votes, you either don't understand the problem or are being disingenuous."

I do not assert the election was not stolen. It's not outside the realm of possibility. I assert only that those claiming it was stolen have failed to date to prove their claims.

Trump was/is so widely hated, many people came out to vote against him, (not for Biden), many of them probably new voters. Absent compelling evidence of widespread fraud, there is no serious reason to doubt the legitimacy of the outcome.

Robert Cook said...

"Robert Cook: The Democrats need to prove that the vote count was honest."

No, they don't. To repeat myself, the only burden of proof lies with those making claims of a dishonest vote count.

Bilwick said...

I never watch Bongino's show, although I've seen him as a panelist on Greg Gutfeld's show. He seems generally pro-freedom, which of course would raise the ire of the State-shtuppers; and the fact that so many State-shtuppers don't like him would tend to confirm my original impression of him. These are people who want us to believe that, despite all its homicidal and larcenous tendencies, the State is our best friend, and we should just give it more and more power. Between such morons and mountebanks on one one side, and Mr. Bongino on the other, guess who I'm more inclined to trust?

Achilles said...

Some examples of Blue lies:

Russian Collusion Hoax
People who don't like Vaccine Mandates are anti-vaxxers
Brett Kavanaugh is a rapist
Hunter Biden's laptop is russian misinformation
"Let's Go Brandon" is slow insurrection
Jussie Smollet and the rest of the race hoax industry
There is no inflation
inflation is transitory
Inflation is good
The Southern border is secure. Really.
Joe Biden didn't abandon americans in Afghanistan.

Robert Cook said...

"If your answer is "hey, there are no GOP 'blue lies', only the Left does those", I'll be happy to agree with you. If not, what are the GOP "blue lies"?

I have made no mention or accusation of or reference to "GOP blue lies." I'd bet that Trump and those close to him--such as Giuliani--are lying, making claims simply to tarnish the outcome, but I am sure, as I said, that most believers in the "stolen election" claim really believe it was stolen. Their problem is their failure to prove this to be so.

narciso said...

see jane mayer and her wingman avenatti, or all the lies she flacked for steele, the new yorker is just chalk full of lies,

the most rotten boroughs, Atlanta Detroit Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Maricopa County in general, enabled the theft of the franchise,

Achilles said...

Robert Cook said...

"Robert Cook: The Democrats need to prove that the vote count was honest."

No, they don't. To repeat myself, the only burden of proof lies with those making claims of a dishonest vote count.

This is not true.

In any fraud proceeding where a company or individual was caught doing anything against the law and fraud charges are brought it is on the company to prove they are legit. They have to completely open their books and submit to a full legal audit.

Once there is a single fraudulent vote found in a jurisdiction the burden of proof transfers. Once the defendent acts illegally as several voting centers did when they kicked observers out during counting the burden of proof changes. When people are caught on video stuffing ballots through the scanners multiple times the burden of proof changes.

It a very low standard for this burden to change. The 2020 election blows that standard completely out of the water. Any company or individual defendent in a case like this would be forced to prove their innocence.

But Robert Cook thinks Joe Biden got 81 million votes. No really. Joe Biden got more black voters to vote for him than Barrack Obama. His turnout machine was That Good.

And Americans really hated Trump so much that he got more votes than any other American in history. Except Joe Biden of course. No really.

You are trying to fall back on an untrue argument.

And at this point you know Biden stole the election.

That is why your arguments are so pathetic.

Achilles said...

Robert Cook said...

I have made no mention or accusation of or reference to "GOP blue lies." I'd bet that Trump and those close to him--such as Giuliani--are lying, making claims simply to tarnish the outcome, but I am sure, as I said, that most believers in the "stolen election" claim really believe it was stolen. Their problem is their failure to prove this to be so.

This is why all those democrat controlled counties immediately gave full access to the Dominion voting machines so that everyone would have no choice to accept the results.

And this is why all of the giant corporations are censoring information as it comes out.

Robert Cook loves him some huge corporation and government collusion. He loves it when the 20 richest people in the country use their media companies to censor information.

You are on the side of people who are concealing and censoring Cook.

You are one of the baddies.

Jamie said...

Absent compelling evidence of widespread fraud, there is no serious reason to doubt the legitimacy of the outcome.

Two qualifiers and an insult. Try it again without those, since the two qualifiers are not part of the serious doubts I have about 2020. The issue in my mind is that Democrats deliberately did two things prior to the 2020 election (interestingly, autocorrect first made that word "ejection"): they dramatically increased the potential for untraceable fraud, and they attached the word "racist" to any questions or efforts to roll back the changes they unilaterally made. A third thing: they have vehemently opposed efforts to legitimize the election, which - if it were possible - would put to rest the doubts so many of us have about it.

A fourth thing, something truly "institutional" now: the much-discussed infusions of massive cash into only Democrat counties (and in-kind donations in the form of inexplicably positive media coverage for Biden and wild accusations of criminal behavior for Trump).

What Democrats did was to inject doubt into every future election, while waving the bloody shirt of racism at anyone who questions their motives or methods.

hombre said...

Cook: “...most believers in the "stolen election" claim really believe it was stolen. Their problem is their failure to prove this to be so.”

Cases dismissed on procedural grounds do not support a “failure to prove” conclusion. The dismissals do support a “denial of the opportunity to prove” claim. Additionally, it is uncontested that many state apparatchiks unconstitutionally altered election laws without legislative approval. The alterations resulted in voting methods (e.g., mail in ballots) known to facilitate fraud. Finally, the hundreds of millions donated by fat cats and plied by local authorities to disproportionately encourage Democrat voter turnout may have been expended discriminatorily, hence illegally, to alter the election. Not litigated yet.

Most of us who question the regularity of the election have certainly considered the evidence. Leftist sheep who summarily declare, “There was no fraud,” have not.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

The Georgia Star News did a public records request for the chain of custody paperwork for all of the absenstee/mail-in ballots. 604,000 of those ballots had no paperwork. Are those 604,000 ballots valid or fraudulent? Know one knows.

The Star has many articles on chain of custody problems.

Maynard said...

And the Russian Hoax lies (for example, and there are MANY MORE I CAN LIST) aren't threatening our democracy?? What planet do you live on??

The planet of Obvious Sarcasm.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

hombre said: Finally, the hundreds of millions donated by fat cats and plied by local authorities to disproportionately encourage Democrat voter turnout may have been expended discriminatorily, hence illegally, to alter the election.

Bribes to election officials to alter election procedures in favor of Democrats.

Gahrie said...

The rule was the Party of the incumbent President was Blue, the out Party was Red. This meant in 2000 with Clinton the incumbent, the Dems got blue and the GOP got red

Bullsh*t!


Actually....

Originally there was no rule. The colors switched from election to election, and sometimes were different in the same election depending on which network you watched. It was Tim Russert who finally convinced the MSM to make the Democrats blue, and the Republicans red, so it would avoid having the Democrats linked to the color of Communism.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

We must not forget Joe's brag about the "The Most Extensive And Inclusive Voter Fraud Organization" in American History. Joe told us what the Dems were going to do, then we saw how they did it. Now the Dems don't want to own up to Joe's brag.

Richard Dillman said...

I think that blue lies , if they exist, are now a standard part of modern rhetoric. Modern political rhetoric is tribal; politicians speak and write for tribes. The tribes tolerate factual distortions, and there is very little interest and effort to persuade people from other tribes. Its regarded as a waste of time to persuade members of the rival tribes. The internet often operates the same way, focusing on micro audiences of slices of the media audience. It s a bit like preaching to the choir. The rhetoric of Instapundit or Powerline is anathema to leftists. They are not the intended audience. Moreover, the rhetoric of MSNBC is painful for conservatives. Blue lies on both sides are part of the trend. And it is nearly impossible to separate the rhetoric or style from the content; they blend so seamlessly together. If, however, we keep expanding the definition of lies, then even using metaphors would be a form of lying. Kenneth Burke pointed out years ago that you persuade people if you identify with them in language, syntax, idiom, imagery, metaphors, tropes, figures and themes, etc. I think his definition of persuasion might include this facile concept of blue lies as well. However, to protect yourself from all this excess, we all need a modern version of Hemingway’s
all-purpose “shit detector.”

Jim at said...

However, it appears that social science has confirmed beyond reasonable doubt that the lies told by and for conservatives are far worse and more damaging than the small lies told by liberals. The former lies latter threaten our very democracy.

Parody is much more entertaining when not so obvious.
Try harder.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Robert Cook said...
Trump was/is so widely hated, many people came out to vote against him, (not for Biden), many of them probably new voters.

Bzzt, thank you for playing. Trump was "widely hated" among the class of people who routinely vote. The idea that you could get massive numbers of new voters out of the college indoctrinated crowd is stupidly ludicrous.

Absent compelling evidence of widespread fraud, there is no serious reason to doubt the legitimacy of the outcome

But we have that. In Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, and Atlanta, Democrat "vote counters" engaged in teh obviously fraudulent activity of closing down the vote count and kicking out all observers, election night, while there were still votes to count.

Detroit and Philly were repeatedly caught blocking poll watchers from observing what the workers were doing.

Both of those activities are compelling evidence of fraud.
Being spread out over 4 States whose votes switched the result counts as "widespread"

And that is why we have serious reason to doubt the legitimacy of the outcome

rcocean said...

Sorry, everything the MSM especially the New York City media prints about the Center Right is always a lie. So, do not care. The MSM has decided that rather then tell the truth, they will lie, and the call everyone who disagrees a liar. Its an old commie strategy.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Blogger Robert Cook said...
"If your answer is "hey, there are no GOP 'blue lies', only the Left does those", I'll be happy to agree with you. If not, what are the GOP "blue lies"?

I have made no mention or accusation of or reference to "GOP blue lies."


Our hostess, in the second comment on this post, wrote "Clearly, both parties do blue lies."

I quoted this in the comment you pretended to respond to.

Don't lash out at me for your own stupidity and / or reading comprehension failures.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

Greg the Class Traitor said:

Bzzt, thank you for playing. ...

And that is why we have serious reason to doubt the legitimacy of the outcome


But if none of that is covered on CNN/MSNBC/NYT/WAPO, it doesn't exist. That's the rules of the game for Democrats. The Lie-Stream media must cover it or it's just unicorn farts.

rcocean said...

Remember that all this MSM outlets believed Trump russia collusion and the Kavanaugh rape story were "credible". And then they all supressed the Hunter Biden's computer story and his collusion with China as "Lies" along with any evidence of election fraud in 2020. The woman who acccused Biden of sexual harrassment was also labeled "Not Credible" and a liar based on....nothing.

Big Mike said...

@Althouse, Glenn Greenwald has the answer to you:

"Whatever you think of Bongino or anyone else whose views you hate, it's incomparably dangerous to allow groups created by supreme DC scumbag David Brock to police our discourse, and it's good and healthy that new independent platforms deny them that power"

Drago said...

Now would be an appropriate time to mention Cookie is an October Surprise Truther. He actually believes Reagan/Bush (not The Lesser) conspired with the Ayatollah to hold the American hostages longer to win the election in 1980 against the hapless Carter.

Michael K said...

Cook is on a roll. The election was fair and square because he and his Stalinist buddies say so. No need to check the results. Shut up !, he explains.

The US Supreme Court was not willing to have loonies chanting outside their houses so they ruled that states "did not have standing" to challenges results. Even when Alito tried to insist that late mail-in ballots had to be sequestered, he was ignored by Pennsylvania. No consequences. It was a farce. Now, when people try to insure fair election rules, they are accused of "racism," which of course is typical of all white people. The black ruled countries are such exemplars.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

Pennsylvania's Fulton County will be sending its Dominion voting machines to the state Senate for inspection. The walls are closing in on Joe Biden! (To quote a favorite mantra from the Lie-Stream Media).

https://www.wnd.com/2021/12/boom-judge-inspection-2020-dominion-voting-machines-take-place/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=wnd-breaking&utm_campaign=breaking&utm_content=breaking&ats_es=a4506150730b6add0e1376587953655c

Jupiter said...

I used to read Scientific American. Back when it was both American and Scientific.

Robert Cook said...

"Cook is on a roll. The election was fair and square because he and his Stalinist buddies say so. No need to check the results. Shut up !, he explains."

Nope! Put up or shut up, I say.

Narr said...

"I suspect that it is an experiment to see if we are able to act in a more mature manner."

OHHHHH NOOOOO!

Jamie said...

Put up or shut up, I say.

Well, if a group's actions have the effect of making fraud both more likely (based on the long-standing policy among developed nations not to allow mass mail-in balloting because it increases the potential for fraud) and easier to commit without detection, then I say that group ought to be able to point to a compelling reason why it's taking those actions, as well as why it refuses to come out with any such reason and why it goes back to the same unexamined, unfalsifiable cry of "Racism!" whenever questioned.

It is undeniable that Democrats changed voting standards, processes, and rules in critical swing districts and states before the election, often extralegally, trying to point to COVID at first but, when it was pointed out that elections had been held safely in person already during the pandemic, pivoting to "racist voter suppression." (They probably also performed that pivot because they realized that COVID wouldn't last forever, but claims of invisible racism demonstrably can.) The many unexplained irregularities that occurred in those critical districts and states on election night and thereafter notwithstanding, it's up to Democrats to convince the American people that the changes they instituted were both necessary and appropriate, and they've done no such thing.

So you "put up." My side already has.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Robert Cook said...
Nope! Put up or shut up, I say.

No, Cookie, what happens is I "put up", and then you "shut up".

Which is why you haven't responded to any of the issues I pointed out with the 2020 election.

Because you can't

Achilles said...

Robert Cook said...

"Cook is on a roll. The election was fair and square because he and his Stalinist buddies say so. No need to check the results. Shut up !, he explains."

Nope! Put up or shut up, I say.

Cook has no idea what the difference between a low trust society and a high trust society is.

According to Cook the same people that he says lied us into the Iraq war would never steal an election.

But he hasn't figured out how any of this works. He is just really confused right now and completely lost.

That is why his posts are so empty.

Ann Althouse said...

“ @Althouse, Glenn Greenwald has the answer to you:”

Answer to what?