March 26, 2017

"Must I first define 'privilege' in its current use, or should I imagine that if you’ve reached this paragraph, you’re already among the cognoscenti?"

"As it is known today and discussed in progressive circles, a jurisdiction Bovy writes about with the knowing weariness that comes with longtime residence, privilege is not just about having special advantages available only to the few, but it is also about those advantages that are entirely unearned, and usually ones of which the privileged party is blissfully unaware or, even better, somewhat defensive."

Paragraph 4 of "The last thing on ‘privilege’ you’ll ever need to read/A new book argues that accusing people of unearned advantages does nothing to address inequality — and may only make things worse," a review by Carlos Lozada (in WaPo) of the book "The Perils of 'Privilege': Why Injustice Can’t Be Solved by Accusing Others of Advantage," by Phoebe Maltz Bovy, who, according to Lozada seems to have "scoured the Internet for every overwrought think piece and self-indulgent personal essay about privilege" and "read all of them." She's even "read the comments sections, those swamps of vitriol and condescension that no one is ever supposed to even contemplate or speak of, let alone wade into."

I know you may never click through, since it's in WaPo, and there's a paywall, so let me tell you that there's a lot more of Lozada displaying his exasperation that anyone would do research into understanding what people are talking about on the internet. Bovy herself worried that there might be a problem with a "microhistory" of some phenomenon as it played out on the internet,* and Lozada — noting Bovy's interest in seeing more variety in what's written about economics and inequality — gives her the send-off:
We could, of course, just start reading something else, too. Not all the waters out there are so swampy.
Yeah, stick to mainstream media like The Washington Post where we keep the opinion tidied up and presentable. Speaking of privilege! It seems to me that Lozada is the privileged party... blissfully unaware or... somewhat defensive. Why is anyone wading the swamps of vitriol and condescension, when we've got these nice, clean newspapers with everything laid out for you?
_____________________

* But I think there's an excellent chance that this is exactly the kind of research historians will need to be doing. This is public discourse preserved. It will not be enough to study what the big newspapers were saying at the time. People were talking and leaving their discussions in writing. Lozado would like to reject all this discussion as illegitimate — a swamp. He'd like to say: That's not the real public discussion. The people who actually matter were somewhere else, and they did not put their thoughts in writing. These are not real people in here talking. Ignore them. They don't matter.

It's a bit like the way Trump voters are portrayed as people whose ideas and opinions can't possibly matter. We've seen that they matter, whether the coastal elites in mainstream media like it or not. And historians can act aloof and swampophobic, but I don't think that will play out any better than the "Great Man" approach that once kept historians above lowly things.

183 comments:

rhhardin said...

Microprivilege so far has been overlooked.

rhhardin said...

Privilegism.

rhhardin said...

Vitriol was a men's hair lotion in the 50s.

David said...

We live in the United States. That's a privilege.

David said...

Also a right for citizens. Not for non-citizens unless specifically authorized. Though obviously some now disagree with that.

AReasonableMan said...

RedState says...
President Trump, Coward: He Wants Paul Ryan To Step Down But Gets A Sycophant To Say It


Politics can't work without sycophants, so I feel this is an unnecessary slur.

robother said...

Welcome to the swamp. What'll it be today, vitriol or condescension?

Mary Beth said...

scoured the Internet for every overwrought think piece and self-indulgent personal essay about privilege

More thorough than just reading /r/TumblrInAction/ but probably not that different in the end.

Laslo Spatula said...

"She's even "read the comments sections, those swamps of vitriol and condescension that no one is ever supposed to even contemplate or speak of, let alone wade into."

Has this come from the Washington Post writer reading the comments of Washington Post articles?

By the way, there are 145 comments there (so far) on his very own article.

He is above that of course: Washington Post Writer Privilege.

I am Laslo.

rhhardin said...

Think of privilege that one is unaware of as like a sense of humor.

Having one or not.

What a huge inequality between left and right.

That's not funny.

Henry said...

Privilege is the enemy of art.

Tommy Duncan said...

You see how easy it is? I’ve never met Bovy and know nothing about her life other than what a Google search yields and whatever appears on the jacket of her new book, but here I am self-righteously accusing her of privilege and parading my own unverified circumstances as a relative virtue.

I've always wondered how growing up in a blue collar family. working in foundries for college money, taking physics and math classes and spending spring break working were evidence of my white privilege.

AReasonableMan said...

Jeanine Pirro said...
Paul Ryan needs to step down as speaker of the house.


Hard to argue with this.

traditionalguy said...

Americans were very privileged between 1620 and 1962. But 50 years ago that privilege hammered in the First Amendment was reinterpreted to forbid school children from hearing prayer. The Philosopher Kings announced Free Exercise of Religion meant all along to STFU.

We have lived in 1984's New World ever since then.

Meade said...

"What'll it be today, vitriol or condescension?"

Relax. You're soaking in it.

rhhardin said...

MERCEDES: I work and you porn-surf and pretend to work.

DEAN: That's so much bull right there, okay? I had four postings today alone. Fogcaster, Skyscan, Parsec12.com.

MERCEDES: They're not postings, they're comments. Comments! Like, "You're lame" is a comment.

- Larry Crowne (2011)

Tommy Duncan said...

ARM seems more confused than usual. Or hellbent on hijacking this thread.

rhhardin said...

I worked as a lab assistant in high school for $0.80 an hour to pay for flying lessions.

Talk about a hardscrabble life.

Ann Althouse said...

I added a lot to the original post. Don't miss it.

rehajm said...

The way she promotes the alternative meaning of the swamp as the great unwashed rather than the Washington establishment. Very Clintonesque.

Laslo Spatula said...

Althouse wrote:

"He'd like to say: That's not the real public discussion. The people who actually matter were somewhere else, and they did not put their thoughts in writing. These are not real people in here talking. Ignore them. They don't matter."

From my earlier comment:

"He is above that of course: Washington Post Writer Privilege."

I am Laslo.

rhhardin said...

The newspapers are for their audience, not for most people.

They do audience-care, not people-care.

Meade said...

The new improved Swamp under Madge/Trump: Cleans dishes AND softens your privileged hands.

tcrosse said...

The word Underprivileged used to be a euphemism for Poor. We don't see it too much these days, but it could be useful. It suggests that a certain amount of privilege is the norm, and underprivilege an anomaly.

Ann Althouse said...

Your tiny, privileged hands.

AReasonableMan said...

Speaking of unearned privilege:
Health care fiasco jeopardizes Trump's alliance with Ryan

Paul Ryan Failed Because His Bill Was a Dumpster Fire

The Alt-Right Dances on Paul Ryan's Grave

Paul Ryan: “Obamacare is the law of the land”

Laslo Spatula said...

The condescending attitude about commenters will no doubt change when I release my book:

"Why The Anal Sex References Mattered: My Life As A Blog Commenter", by Laslo Spatula.

I am Laslo.

Quaestor said...

Vitriol was a men's hair lotion in the 50s.

That's what made Johnny Unitas's hair stick straight up like quills on a hedgehog. He could have used his hair to fend off oncoming defensive linemen, but the NFL made him wear a helmet. He even a made some Vitriol TV commercials. Vitriol, Your First Line of Defence, was the punchline, I believe. Something like that, anyway.

Fernandinande said...

accusing people of unearned advantages does nothing to address inequality
...
Why Injustice Can’t Be Solved by Accusing Others of Advantage


They seem to be conflating inequality, which is unavoidable and almost always desirable, with injustice.

AllenS said...

I own 4 tractors. How privileged is that? That's probably more than 99.9% that each individual human owns. Suck it, world!

harrogate said...

Pseudonyms and anonymity change the way (most) people talk. Sure, there are some sociopaths out there who talk the same face to face as how they write in "the comments section," but they are outliers for sure.

I realize how obvious that observation is. But some claim that writing has less credibility when it doesn't have an identifiable author standing behind it. That certainly seems to be the view held by the people Althouse is mocking for their "coastal elitism" in this post.

Anyways, Somehow I doubt historians are gonna replace news organization citations with quotes by "Otis Is Hungry" on some blog site.

Quaestor said...

So far no one has used white privilege in conversation with Quaestor with non-ironic intent, which has prevented me from asking for an example of same.

Bob Boyd said...

By God, it's a privilege to come here and top up my vitriol and condescension reservoirs amongst you sorry losers...and if you don't like it, fuck you. When the needles hit full, I take my sloshing load of distilled essences back out to the world and turn the hose on everyone I meet. It's a commenter's life for me!

AllenS said...

Oftentimes, I'll drive one of my tractors across the lawn of someone underprivileged. Because Trump.

Bob Boyd said...

"Vitriol, Your First Line of Defence, was the punchline, I believe. Something like that, anyway."

There's something about a Vitriolic man.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"I've always wondered how growing up in a blue collar family. working in foundries for college money, taking physics and math classes and spending spring break working were evidence of my white privilege."

Not being taught to hate your "oppressors" is in fact a mindset far superior to those unprivileged sorry sons a bitches who believe they have no control over their existence's because of anything not legitimately oppressing them, legitimate defined here for example as plantation owners forcing labor and refusing any liberty under penalty of death.

Remember how Ricky Bobby stabbed himself in the leg? Now people who don't have a knife (or two, he had two knives in him) in their leg are privileged compared to the stabbed man.

Now, wonder more and consider others accusing you are jealous of what they perceive to be your superior natural genetics.

Also the folks calling you privileged may be trying to get you to kill yourself since they believe that will somehow enrich them.

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

There are historians who study, not the writings of famous historical figures, but those of ordinary people: journals, ledgers, notes scribbled in Bibles, etc. They argue that these writings show a fuller picture of everyday life, aspects that are neglected or glossed over in the more famous works. They try to understand the details that are lost in the big picture.

I see no reason why the same should not be true of the internet at large.

rhhardin said...

If everybody would light one little candle, somebody would probably light two.

- Roger Price

Quaestor said...

Vitriol was a men's hair lotion in the 50s.

Vitriol supposedly contained a secret ingredient. Umbragium-X, I think it was. Vitriol - Now with Umbragium-X! Something like that. Or maybe it was Hostilicon-7... I dunno.

Laslo Spatula said...

"But some claim that writing has less credibility when it doesn't have an identifiable author standing behind it."

Being that I, Laslo, am occasionally an Advocate for the Devil, will posit:

By attaching their names to their work, many of our Elites are LESS honest and credible. They are virtue-signalling to their peers, and write with the intention of maintaining their status, and hopefully growing their position of Perceived Importance.

What they might actually think is air-brushed away when it could affect their Status: that is, when an idea from Outside the Bubble ever entertains itself in their minds.

Probably why a lot of people here read Althouse: she signs her name to what she thinks while actually writing what she thinks, rather than writing for her peers.

I am Laslo.



rhhardin said...

I have all the volumes of Coleridge's notebooks (thanks Kathleen Coburn). Think how many more volumes there would be if notebooks had comments sections.

urbane legend said...

Tommy Duncan said...
I've always wondered how growing up in a blue collar family. working in foundries for college money, taking physics and math classes and spending spring break working were evidence of my white privilege.

Merely taking physics and math classes is evidence of privilege. Passing them makes me wonder why you condescend to acknowledge mere mortals.

AllenS said...
I own 4 tractors. How privileged is that? That's probably more than 99.9% that each individual human owns. Suck it, world!

I don't own one, nor have land to use one. You have them only to display your privilege, don't you? I once aspired to such heights.

Chuck said...

It's a bit like the way Trump voters are portrayed as people whose ideas and opinions can't possibly matter. We've seen that they matter, whether the coastal elites in mainstream media like it or not. And historians can act aloof and swampophobic, but I don't think that will play out any better than the "Great Man" approach that once kept historians above lowly things.

I've been a bit guilty of that and I need to be more careful about it.

For instance, I myself am a Trump voter. There are all kinds of Trump voters.

There are Trump voters who adore him and who believe he is poised to be one of the greatest presidents.

There are Trump voters like me who loathe Trump personally and who only voted for him as the least-worst option.

In between, there are Trump voters who preferred Ted Cruz, voters who don't like what they call "the GOP establishment," voters who are all about "the GOP establishment," voters who are coal miners, voters who are Great Lakes fishing charter boat captains, voters who rely on their Medicare and Social Security, voters who think the national debt is a crisis, voters who are tired of America's foreign entanglements, and voters who want to destroy "radical Islamic terrorism."

So indeed there are lots of different kinds of "Trump voters." Having voted for Trump might not tell us a great deal about somebody.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Funny, in the rough and tumble of life outside of the sanctity bubbles of airless hallucinations masking reality as understood by most, privilege is something that should be checked in order to destroy competition, not immobilize oneself out of a dumbassly fatal sense of duty or decency.

You check your privilege when you notice you are 7' tall and athletic by ballin.

You check your privilege when you notice you get people telling you, besides just Mom, you sing beautiful melodies never heard before in a most wonderful of ways.

You Czech your privilege when you go to Old Town Square in Prague, the square with the astronomical clock it says on Wikipedia.

AprilApple said...

How much privilege is involved when progressives choose to ignore blatant lawlessness?

How Obamacare Execs Broke the Law and Cost Taxpayers Billions

NYTimes:
U.S. [Obama] Paid Insurers Funds Meant for Treasury, Auditors Say

WaPo:
Obama administration may use obscure fund to pay billions to ACA insurers

Forbes:

How The Obama Administration Raided The Treasury To Pay Off Insurers


Gruber:
"Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage,” .... “Basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical to getting the thing to pass.”

Owen said...

Interesting problem (opportunity) for future historians, as to which data-middens they will excavate and catalog, and for which they will claim epistemic privilege. There will be such superfluity of abundant surfeit, such oceanic swamps, that they and their readers will surely drift and drown unless they can recruit robots to read and sort it all.

As with automated discovery and search algorithms, future "history" will be only incidentally or peripherally human.

Quaestor said...

I have all the volumes of Coleridge's notebooks...

Because he knows, a tedious troll
Doth close behind him tread.

Bob Boyd said...

I cried because I had four tractors until I met a man who had four boats.

Martha said...

"Must I first define “privilege” in its current use, or should I imagine that if you’ve reached this paragraph, you’re already among the cognoscenti?"

Lozada does not apparently expect much of the cognoscenti.


Meade said...

AllenS is enslaved by tractors. Chained to the PTO.

Owen said...

Bob Boyd: "...four tractors...four boats." Very good!

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

FYI, for some of the newer folks here, this post is Althouse repeating something she's more explicitly stated in the past.

She believes that her blog will be studied by future generations.

I know. Adorable.



Carry on.

Angel-Dyne said...

Tommy Duncan: ARM seems more confused than usual. Or hellbent on hijacking this thread.

I thought his comment about sychophancy was funny. Even though I usually address ARM with vitriol and condescension.

William said...

I remember Vitalis, Brylcreem, and Wild Root Cream Oil. I don't remember Vitriol. Do these products still exist? How imperceptibly they faded away. Where are the snows of yesterday? One year you're living in a world where a little dab will do you, and then that world is gone. Even the memory of that world is gone. Will white privilege someday go the way of slick hair?

Quaestor said...

Lozada does not apparently expect much of the cognoscenti.

What's the point of being a cognoscente in the age of the smartphone?

Meade said...

FYI, PB GoodPerson is the only "newer folk" here.

Meade said...

I know. Adorable.

Virgil Hilts said...

My family - 5 children, 4 with advanced degrees, all very successful and happy.
Nextdoor - 4 children of parents with same income, neighborhood, school. Result - suicide, drug abuse, juvenile detention, 16 year old run away and one unhappy religious fanatic. Anecdotal, of course, but produced unshakable conviction early on that real privilege consists of good genes (including high IQ) and good parents. The left doesn't like this because of the implications, but ke sera sera baby!

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

The future will be interested in what was not influential in the past. Their fascination will be eaually split between this blog and the LKay6 empire on Myspace.

Logic.

John Nowak said...

>Anyways, Somehow I doubt historians are gonna replace news organization citations with quotes by "Otis Is Hungry" on some blog site.

This is why nobody takes Voltaire seriously.

William said...

My childhood (sob, moan) was more notable for its deficits than for its advantages. I was, however, white, heterosexual, and not physically handicapped. Apparently any success I have achieved later in life was due to these advantages. Good to know.

Quaestor said...

AllenS is enslaved by tractors. Chained to the PTO.

Attention tractor slaves! Time for obligatory name changin'. You! over there chained to four tractors...

My name is AllenS, sir.

Forget it! From now on your name is Caleb!

AReasonableMan said...

Angel-Dyne said...
I usually address ARM with vitriol and condescension.


Well earned, I say.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The greatest privilege of all is the power to bestow privilege on others or deny privilege to others.

Tarrou said...

Let's talk about the privilege of those who subscribe to the most fashionable and faddish of opinions, who always get their so-called "think-pieces" published in respectable outlets and who thus oppress and silence all those who might have a different lived experience. We should kill them all.

Quaestor said...

You Czech your privilege when you go to Old Town Square in Prague, the square with the astronomical clock it says on Wikipedia.

Czech my privilege? Rozumím.

Quaestor said...

Well earned, I say.

Well needed you mean. Look at your hair. It's so stiff and marbly. You definitely need Vitriol (now with Hostilicon 7!)

Michael K said...

I define "white privilege" as studying and doing homework. Those Dartmouth students in the Baker Library in November 2015, for example. They were there indulging their "privilege" by studying for exams when the library was invaded by Black Lives Matter activists who know they don't have to study for that African American Studies final because there won't be one.

Invading the library and screaming at white students trying to study will be their assignment to get the mandatory A.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Have you ever taken one of the "privilege tests" they make college kids take? You can find them online.
They are testing for whiteness, not sex, and not education level or wealth. The proxy they use for whiteness is that you are of the race of the majority and you have lived your life where the majority race controls most institutions, i.e., the cops, teachers, bankers, etc. are of the same race as the test taker.

Owen said...

Michael K: unless you have a personal connection with Dartmouth I think your citation of Baker-Berry riot is good evidence that the school's reputation has been pretty widely ruined by that BLM Special Snowflake Moment.

Maybe my using the snowflake metaphor is more white privileged there. I denounce myself on the required preemptive basis.

Original Mike said...

Blogger rhhardin said..."Microprivilege so far has been overlooked."

I'm the recipient of picoprivlege myself, and I'm a little bit ashamed of it.

Drago said...

Michael K: "Those Dartmouth students in the Baker Library in November 2015, for example. They were there indulging their "privilege" by studying for exams when the library was invaded by Black Lives Matter activists who know they don't have to study for that African American Studies final because there won't be one."

Was that the time the Asian kid walked and told them to shut up because, duh, "this is library".

A perfect illustration as to why some subgroups move forward and some subgroups do not.

Real American said...

Yes, accusing people of made up, fairy tale, Marxist, racist bullshit is not very effective human relations.

robother said...

@William: "Will white privilege someday go the way of slick hair?"

A little dab'll do ya.

AllenS said...

I also have a small bulldozer, but I didn't want to brag. Because, when you got it, you got it. Winning.

AReasonableMan said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
Their fascination will be equally split between this blog and the LKay6 empire on Myspace.


I actually googled the LKay6 empire. The first reference is to this comment. And, yes, I know, idle hands...

Inga said...

"Pseudonyms and anonymity change the way (most) people talk. Sure, there are some sociopaths out there who talk the same face to face as how they write in "the comments section," but they are outliers for sure."

Yes indeed! I'd love to be face to face with at least one of them if they spoke that way to my face.

As for Trump voters, I think we non Trump voters were trying very hard to understand you people, getting extremely frustrated, disgusted and then on to resignation. I'll admit there are some normal people who voted for Trump. I guess they are seeing him far differently than we non Trumpists do, or something...

pacwest said...

Inga,
We voted for hope of change just like you did.

Lewis Wetzel said...

As for Trump voters, I think we non Trump voters were trying very hard to understand you people, getting extremely frustrated, disgusted and then on to resignation. I'll admit there are some normal people who voted for Trump. I guess they are seeing him far differently than we non Trumpists do, or something...

It is not your place to judge Trump voters.
Check your privilege, Inga.

Kevin said...

"As for Trump voters, I think we non Trump voters were trying very hard to understand you people, getting extremely frustrated, disgusted and then on to resignation."

Is your purpose to understand them or to persuade them they made a mistake? What you choose to understand is entirely within your control, and shouldn't be frustrating in the least.

Inga said...

Not judging anymore, just trying to understand now with all sincerity.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I used to do a lil dab, because of the wisdom of crowds like here at Althouse, but then, like the fella A. Rose says, or maybe it was Slash?, "I used to do a little but a little wouldn't do it so a little got mo and mo, just keep trying to get a little better, a little better than before."

http://m.animalnewyork.com/wp-content/uploads/cannabis_dabs_wax_animalny.jpg

Original Mike said...

One word, Inga. Hillary.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

accusing people of unearned advantages does nothing to address inequality

Just like screaming "racist" at people for merely disagreeing with you and calling them Nazis and other epithets is going to make them agree with your world view. Not a very persuasive technique, but I guess it feels good from their end.

Luke Lea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lewis Wetzel said...

Inga, I think that there are a lot of people who did not vote for Trump, but find that they are now defending him, because the anti-Trumpers have revealed themselves to be radical, hate-filled, and anti-democratic.

Kevin said...

What specifically don't you understand? I'm sure if you asked in a nonjudgmental way Ann's commenters would be capable of addressing your curiosity.

Pro tip: "Why did you vote for Hitler?" is judgy.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Understand Inga I am a (fellow?) Nazi who wants power and blood, not in that order.

If I see small critters, I bomb them just like the guy on the bike with the cigar in Raising Arizona.

Now you know, you know.

pacwest said...

"Not judging anymore, just trying to understand now with all sincerity."

Checking your premises is the indicator of an intelligent mind. I wish it was not such a rare thing. Thanks for that. It doesn't mean you have to change them. Just check them now and again.

Kevin said...

"Checking your premises is the indicator of an intelligent mind. I wish it was not such a rare thing. Thanks for that. It doesn't mean you have to change them. Just check them now and again."

Bravo.

Luke Lea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...

It;'s nice to see Inga identifying herself and maybe we could have a discussion about healthcare.

"Michael K: unless you have a personal connection with Dartmouth"

I am a graduate and follow the decline. At least it has not declined to the level that Yale has.

Maybe the cold weather helps keep some sanity although the SJWs were there when I was in 1994-95.

Sebastian said...

Surprise: prog WaPo writer writing about privilege in the usual prog fashion is blissfully unaware of his own pseudo-privilege. Of course, any number of people on this blog, starting with our hostess, can spot his phony pretensions more easily than any MSM flunky. Many people here, retirees grandfathered in, have real jobs, real degrees, real incomes, real knowledge about real things, and therefore enjoy the distinct privilege of being immune to WaPo BS.

The future challenge to historians is real. Used to be, they had to search long and hard for data--scour court records, reconstruct wheat prices, and so on. Now they face a big-data conundrum: plenty of material, but hard to sift. Sure, the usual prog ideologues will select the evidence to suit their cause. But the opportunity to do something creative with the online vs. MSM "discourse" of the past decade or so will tempt mavericks. It's important: a growing minority filters and perceives events in new ways, creating new virtual communities along the way. Reading AA and commenting here certainly has affected me. Only one data point--but potentially relevant to some future historians.

Inga said...

OM,

But what if we find out Trump is worse than Hillary?

Kevin said...

See Inga, people are trying to answer your question and they don't really even know what it is.

Imagine the insights you'd get if they really knew what it was that specifically confused you.

AlbertAnonymous said...

I so wanted to see Laslo write a story about the couple entering the country club for the formal dinner, passing the counter for the "coat check" where some nice young lady (probably with a British accent) says "may I check your coat madame?" And then they pass the counter for the "privilege check" and Laslo's over the top inner city black character (can't remember his name, sorry...) says something like "yo muthaf**ker check to damn privilege!!!! I ain't playin"

Luke Lea said...

Though I am late to the discussion, let me just say that what the left is calling "privilege" is one of the inescapable consequences of human biodiversity in a multi-racial, multi-cultural bi-gendered society.

Among the things we are learning in this new genomic age, is that all human traits are genetically heritable to a significant degree, and that all population groups (as well as the two genders) differ statistically in just about every trait that matters which natural and sexual selection have had time to act upon. Moreover, it turns out that "gene-culture co-evolution" is a real phenomenon (because cultures are an important part of the environment in which humans evolve) and that it operates on a time scale of centuries. For how that has worked in the West see here: https://goo.gl/q18ekk

Clearly, then, problems of "privilege" are here for the long-term. They challenge the ideal of human equality upon American civilization is based -- a challenge that, realistically speaking, "equality of opportunity" by itself is not about to solve (at least if by "equality of opportunity" we mean an equal opportunity of rising to the top).

Trump has a better idea, in my opinion, when he talks about creating a society that provides good jobs at good wages for everyone, including the "poorly educated" that he so famously loves. In other words a society in which anyone who "works hard and plays be the rules" has a decent chance to lead a good life. We don't have that now but if we did there would not be so much inter-racial strife.

For my pitiable proposal on how this might one day be achieved, at least for the two-thirds of the public who once expressed interest in the idea, see here: https://goo.gl/NMIF7y

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I also have a small bulldozer, but I didn't want to brag. Because, when you got it, you got it. Winning.

LOL Allen. You have got it you privileged guy. Show off.

We have a tractor too. What attachments do you have. How about a backhoe? Scraper. Tiller? Got those? Hydraulic boom truck? We don't have a grader but have to borrow one from our neighbor soon to re do the driveways and parking areas that got ruined by the excessive snow, ice and water this year. Our neighbor is much more privileged than we are and has bigger tractors too.

Inga said...

Michael K,

I think the country needs a sincere discussion and a move to real healthcare reform. Governor Kasich was on CNN just now and in his plain spoken way said Democrats and Republicans must work on healthcare reform together, or it was nuts! When Trump said that he was now open to working with Democrats on healthcare it was a spark of hope for me. Trump made some statements on the campaign trail about something that sounded like a Public Option of some sort. If Trump would be the President to usher in Universal Healthcare, he could be forgiven of many things that bothered the left.

mockturtle said...

Privilege isn't necessarily unearned. If you belong to a club, you enjoy its privileges as a member. But you have to pay the dues.

Inga said...

And now Sanders is talking about working with Trump on lowering the cost of prescription drugs and that there is a bill to do so in the Senate. Will Republicans come aboard?

mockturtle said...

Breaking News: The is no Utopian solution.

AllenS said...

DBQ, 3 have hydraulics. These are farm tractors, not industrial. I own a lot of stuff to pull around.

Yancey Ward said...

Can I assume the comments section of Lozada's essay are turned off?

I looked- no.

pacwest said...

"But what if we find out Trump is worse than Hillary?"

To me that is a real possibility. He is a reality TV star/businessman with no governing experience after all. There are several considerations make me fall on his side vs Clinton though. The list is long of course, but a couple are that his supply of common sense seemed much larger than Hillary's. And, as mentioned here by many during the campaign, his powers will be kept in check whereas that was not likely the case with Hillary.

mockturtle said...

Don't forget that Trump won whites with a college degree 49% to 45%, according to the Pew Research Center. The media would like us to believe that Trump voters are all uneducated hillbillies [no offense to uneducated hillbillies, BTW, which include a few of my ancestors].

Inga said...

"Breaking News: The is no Utopian solution."

That's not news. But there are better options, much better.

Original Mike said...

"But what if we find out Trump is worse than Hillary?"

Then I will regret my vote but I am not, at this juncture, anticipating that. Hillary was rotten to the core.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Allen. Farm tractors...like ours cool.

Every year we have a local group that puts on a "tractor show" from brand new machines to the very old Allis Chalmers and even some steam powered tractors and other antique farm equipment. Almost all of them beautifully restored and fully functional. It is a big hit and shows how deprived we all really are out here in fly over country for entertainment :-)

Meade said...

"But what if we find out Trump is worse than Hillary?"

Then, unlike stupefied voters in 1996 and 2012, we won't reelect.

Original Mike said...

"Then, unlike stupefied voters in 1996 and 2012, we won't reelect."

There's a plan!

Yancey Ward said...

Inga asked:

"But what if we find out Trump is worse than Hillary?"

Didn't "we" already decided the answer to this question before the election? I am sure you will dismiss this out of hand, but it is an important question for you to answer. Check your pronouns.

Sam L. said...

I don't need to read the first thing on privilege, either.

Bill Peschel said...

Inga, since you asked, I am a Trump voter. I voted for him reluctantly, and now I'm thrilled that he won.

I am white, mid-50s, grey-collar background (Dad helped manage a steel mill near Youngstown, Ohio, in the '60s) who also grew up on North Carolina during forced integration, which gave me a taste of badly run schools and clashes with black students from poorer neighborhoods.

I got a journalism degree and drove a bread truck, worked for a role-playing game company, tried to write fantasy fiction, before I found a home on a newspaper copy desk for the next 22 years before I was laid off.

I've been a registered Democrat, unaffiliated, and am now a registered Republican. I voted for Anderson or Commoner in '80, and frankly can't remember since. I didn't vote for Obama either time, since his lack of a record and associations with Wright and Ayers, the Chicago chicanery by which he got his senate seat, his hiding of his Harvard grades, his lack of a paper trail, and the financing of his campaign through hinky overseas donations (his campaign had turned off credit card verification) pretty much told me all I needed to know about him.

This past eight years, I saw how he used the IRS against the Tea Party, his fecklessness in Syria (remember the "no crossing the blue line"?), his promises to the banksters that "he was all there was against the pitchforks"), his hot-mic comment to Putin that he'll be free to act as he pleases during his second term (why tell him that?), Hillary's deal to sell Putin our uranium after a major contribution to the Clinton Foundation; his and Gruber's lies about Obamacare and the utter trainwreck that has followed (the botched roll-out, the collapse of the exchanges, the increase in premiums), not to mention his Justice Department's involvement in running guns to Mexico and involving themselves in Ferguson. I should also mention the cash payments to Iran and allowing them to reopen their nuke program.

This past campaign, I read the Podesta emails that showed the pay-for-play deals with the Hilary campaign, a major NYT reporter letting the campaign vet Hillary's on-the-record comments, the Boston newspaper coordinating its coverage with HRC's presidential announcement, and the general backslapping between the reporters and the campaign.

Then there's Hillary's non-record as a senator, and her deflecting the Libya attack onto a maker of a rarely watched video. Collapsing after the 9/11 memorial event should have raised far more red flags than the media was willing to admit.

Against all that, there was Trump, who I've been aware of since the '80s, when I read Spy magazine. He reminded me of my former boss at Avalon Hill, who was a nasty, hard man, who'd cut every corner he could, grasp for every advantage he could get, who'd let his subordinates have their head so long as they produced, and expressed himself in the same vulgar way.

I wouldn't want to work for such a man, I understand where he was coming from.

I also don't t accept the argument that enforcing existing immigration laws was "racist." I approve of immigration. We are nation of immigrants. But I didn't like the fact that admitting illegal immigrants drove down wages (and Silicon Valley and Disney abusing the Visa H1B program to drive down wages for engineers and programmers).

But most of all, I didn't like the current system in which a compliant press wasn't going to vet a Democratic president as much as a Republican. A system where laws were being created by Obama's pen, and where Title IX, used to equally distribute sports assets equally between the sexes, was being used to create kangaroo courts for young men being convicted of rape solely on a woman's word.

Now, Inga, you know part of the mind of one Trump voter. This was written in one go, with minimal back-editing. Deal with it as you will.

Just be glad you didn't ask about global warming. :)

rcocean said...

I refuse to use a bullshit phrase like "White privilege" Why does everyone dance to whatever tune the cultural Marxists play?

I'm always astounded how phrases and words that no one has used before get put out by the Left and then everyone adopts them - even conservatives - without every saying "Why the fuck are suddenly talking about "white privilege" (or whatever)?"

Did I miss the memo? Who came up with term and why?

mockturtle said...

Nice summation, Bill!

Inga said...

Bill, thanks for your comment. You sound like a very decent guy, not unlike the decent people in my own family that voted for Trump. My relatives that were Trump voters have said very similar things in discussions we've had. There was some cognitive dissonance with myself when trying to understand how such good decent people I loved could align themselves with Trump. Obviously many of you were/ are able to disconnect yourselves some his less than admirable qualities. If Trump does some good things for Americans, such as real healthcare reform, I can turn my head from some things about him I detest.

William said...

Identity is destiny. Inga seems a tad less polemical than usual. Is Inga her Clark Kent persona?........As I understand history, the class and religious differences among 19th century white Americans were quite nasty, even nastier than what now exists between whites and Them. It's kind of a triumph that being white is now considered some kind of homogenous identity.......If diversity is such a wonderful thing, why didn't the Hapsburg Empire endure?

Michael K said...

Trump made some statements on the campaign trail about something that sounded like a Public Option of some sort. If Trump would be the President to usher in Universal Healthcare, he could be forgiven of many things that bothered the left.

One of the problems is that most people on the left who talk about "single payer" have no idea of what it means.

Britain, in the aftermath of WWII, was governed by Socialists and began a tax paid for health plan. Canada did something similar about 1986. Both are in trouble.

When the price of something is effectively zero, demand reaches to infinity. There is an old expression: "Land Office Business" which refers to the days of giving away free land. The 1862 Homestead Act at least required a registration fee and the owner had to improve the land and stay there for five years,

I like the French system because it controls demand with price and with the requirement that the patient pay FIRST. The health plan, which is funded by payroll seduction, sends a check for reimbursement a couple of weeks later. The doctor is allowed to charge more if he/she can get people to pay it. They have to post their fees in the waiting room.

France has serious employment problems, related to the Socialist governments they've had for 40 years. For that reason, the health plan relies on taxation more than it was designed to do. The French also have co-insurance, like MediGap insurance here, which pays an additional amount to cover the share not paid by the health plan.

The patient is reimbursed by insurance, 80% by Securite Sociale, and the rest by assurance complementaire but the principle is supported by the French when they are surveyed and they are suspicious of “free care” as wasteful and liable to abuse.

From the posts I linked to. Only 80% is reimbursed.

In recent years, more and more doctors have accepted the negotiated payment as payment in full, sort of like Medicare "Assignment" here. However, the health plan then provides paid vacations and pensions for those doctors.

Since medical school in France is free and does not require a college education. doctors there do not have student loans.

It would be the basis for a significant reform here but the Democrats went the way of lobbyists and insurance companies.

Michael K said...

"payroll seduction"

That was payroll deduction but it does make in interesting Freudian slip.

Angel-Dyne said...

Michael K: "payroll seduction"

That was payroll deduction but it does make in interesting Freudian slip.


Well, you were talking about the French...

Inga said...

"Identity is destiny. Inga seems a tad less polemical than usual. Is Inga her Clark Kent persona?"

William, don't be complacent, you never know when I'm going to tear my shirt off....

mockturtle said...

Everyone should be able to get basic healthcare--and pay for it, at least in part. But, as an eminent German urologist once remarked, "Everybody should be able to have a car. Not everyone can have a Porsche."

Zach said...

The thing about privilege is that it's always limited and situational.

If college has taught us nothing else, it should have taught us that marginalized subgroups which are so rare as to be invisible in the broader world can be as vicious and nasty within the range of their own voice as any white male ever dreamed of being.

It's a big problem with intersectionality on a theoretical level: the idea that privilege is always additive, and a roughly constant property of a person rather than the situation the person is in. It then naturally follows that some groups are privileged, always and everywhere, and some groups are not -- again, always and everywhere. And then the subgroups are justified in being as vicious and nasty as they always claimed everyone else was

Inga said...

With Medicare, there is a premium payment. Why not extend it to everyone? Everyone buys in, the pool becomes huge, healthcare costs go down. Also price caps on services will be essential, as it is in other countries. The poverty stricken get Medicaid. No doctor or clinic should become filthy rich providing healthcare.

Inga said...

"No doctor or clinic should become filthy rich providing healthcare."


Add insurance companies to that.

Francisco D said...

Inga said: "No doctor or clinic should become filthy rich providing healthcare."

MDs and PhDs work their asses off to get credentialed and take great financial risks to earn those credentials. Whatever "filthy rich" means, why doesn't it apply to Hollywood actors who usually have very little formal education?

Once we get started down that road, do you see where it leads?

William said...

The morality of our age dictates that everyone should have health care. The technology of our age dictates that procedures and exams will become increasingly more complex and expensive. The economics of our age indicates that this conundrum can't go on indefinitely. The politics of our age indicates that it will.........Is it better that 80% of the population have access to first rate medical care or that 100% of the population be treated in shabby clinics after long delays?

Michael K said...

"No doctor or clinic should become filthy rich providing healthcare."

This is another leftist myth. A friend of mine, a fantastically successful ophthalmologist, told me a few years ago that he had sold his London flat that he had had for a few years. London real estate prices had gone up so much that his profit on the sale of his flat was greater than his entire annual income from his practice.

He now spends several months a year doing eye surgery in Armenia where his grandparents came from. I think he speaks the language.

The rich doctors I know all made their money by investing their income wisely. Not from practice. Roger was a clinical investigator when cataract surgery was just beginning. He was doing soft lens implants after removing cataracts. He saw how superior this was and got his entire family to mortgage their homes and borrow all the money they could raise and invest in stock in the company that made the lenses. That is where his money came from.

Of course, your definition of "rich" may be influenced by your own circumstances but "filthy rich" is something that doctors don't get.

Inga said...

Francisco,
Yes, I'm aware of the expense. Doctors salaries aren't the entire problem as to why healthcare costs are so high, but it is a contributing factor. I'd be in favor of free tuition in exchange for, let's say a few years of paid service at some free clinic, etc.

Pay me like a French doctor.

Michael K said...

"The technology of our age dictates that procedures and exams will become increasingly more complex and expensive. "

Not necessarily. Some procedures follow something like the Moore's Law. Look at LASIK. You know what is different about LASIK ?

Insurance doesn't cover it. The same applies to cosmetic plastic surgery.

pacwest said...

"filthy rich"

To me this is one of the great divides between the left and right.

Right-equal opportunities
Left-equal outcomes

Inga said...

The billionaire doctor's club.

I admit I didn't look through the entire list. Britain, Canada, Germany, France etc. docs don't make the kind of money American docs do. I'm actually more concerned with clinics and hospital charges. Price controls seem to work in many countries, why not here?

Original Mike said...

"With Medicare, there is a premium payment. Why not extend it to everyone?"

Because the economics of that are catastrophic. Medicare doesn't come close to "paying its way". It is subsidized by those paying into the private system. As bad as that is, it's creaking along. You're plan would bring the whole system down.

Michael K said...

This makes the physicians’ collective take-home pay only about 10 percent of total national health spending. If we somehow managed to cut that take-home pay by, say, 20 percent, we would reduce total national health spending by only 2 percent, in return for a wholly demoralized medical profession to which we so often look to save our lives. It strikes me as a poor strategy.

This is from your link, Inga.

The other factor no one talks about, unless they know what they are talking about is that HMOs have a larger share of their expenses from MD salaries. That's because they are more into primary care. The same applies to Canada. They spend more on primary care and ration specialist care with low payment.

The French approach on medical school tuition and working in cheap clinics would be a fair trade to me.

I have been encouraging my students for 15 years to think about joining the Army to go to medical school. The military will pay their tuition and even provide a salary. In return they put in 7 years in the military, 4 for the years of subsidy and 3 for the basic obligation.

They don't do it. I see kids joining in my job and they are usually from second rate medical schools.

I don't know why kids would rather take our $250,000 in loans and spend decades paying back.

Original Mike said...

Excellent post Bill Peschel. Add to that Lewis Wetzel's comment "I think that there are a lot of people who did not vote for Trump, but find that they are now defending him, because the anti-Trumpers have revealed themselves to be radical, hate-filled, and anti-democratic." and I think that pretty much covers my feelings toward a Trump presidency.

Dead Inside said...

It seems that everyone forgets we all live in a capitalistic country/society. The way capitalism works is a lot of people work hard and are poor or middle class, while a few are rich and make money off of the poor/middle class. The middle-class and lower-class line is almost completely dissolved though which is exactly what republicans want. I don't see why white, uneducated, poor voters would vote for Trump when he is going to royally fuck them up the ass.... But hey, lets make American great again- at the expense of our land, jobs, and living- am i right??? So privilege is only a term that can be relative in certain situations. I am a black teenager who goes to a very nice public school, which enrolls us with MacBook Air pros. Even though I live in the hood- but in a nicer area, and attend a nice school- even though i am black- i am still more privileged than my well-lessto do counterparts. If everyone acknowledged their privilege- it would be nice. But American citizens as a whole are SUPER privileged. We have so many freedoms that people in countries elsewhere do not have at all. Before you pull the privilege card, make sure you check the price tag on your jacket. This is America lol. Obviously we are not all made equal.

Original Mike said...

Blogger William said..." The technology of our age dictates that procedures and exams will become increasingly more complex and expensive."

I think this is wrong. While new procedures may start out more expensive, they don't have to stay that way. There are any number of examples of this. Take automobiles; very expensive when the technology was new but now economically available to almost everyone. But for this dynamic to play out requires the private market. This is my biggest objection to government "taking over" healthcare. It dooms us to exactly the future we wish to avoid.

Michael K said...

The way capitalism works is a lot of people work hard and are poor or middle class, while a few are rich and make money off of the poor/middle class.

You mean like movie stars ? Or Steve Jobs who conceived that MacBook you have?

The people who make lots of money, and I am not one of them, make it by inventing something or creating something that many, many people will pay a small amount to buy or rent,

Very few get rich by screwing others because that behavior has a very short period of success.

They do something or make something that others are willing to pay a small amount for.

If you don't understand that, you don't understand how America works.

Francisco D said...

Michael K said: "I don't know why kids would rather take our $250,000 in loans and spend decades paying back."

My nephew graduated med school about five years ago. His estimated debt was closer to $325K. I doubt if it is any cheaper today.

For Inga:

My nephew comes from a lower middle class family. Going to med school was a huge financial risk for him. He could have sold insurance (as I once suggested) without much financial risk. However, he had a dream.

If he invents a procedure or device that saves lives that were previously lost, I do not want his remuneration capped, just as I don't want Bill Gates' profits to be capped.

Michael K said...

"But for this dynamic to play out requires the private market."

That is my comment above. Cars are very expensive because they are very much regulated by government.

My first new car was a 1968 Mustang convertible. I paid $3050 for it.

Owen said...

Bill Peschel: what you said. Admirable summary of about 80% of the issues that motivate me. And yes, no need to start on "climate change." That is a great litmus test of idiocy.

Original Mike said...

"If we somehow managed to cut that take-home pay by, say, 20 percent, we would reduce total national health spending by only 2 percent, in return for a wholly demoralized medical profession to which we so often look to save our lives. It strikes me as a poor strategy."

Yeah. Some people don't think past the nose on their face.

Michael K said...

Blogger Inga said...
The billionaire doctor's club.


Take a look at the stories, Inga. The really rich ones are doctors only by education. They made their money from investments or inventions. The few who seem to make it from practice are in the $10 million range and probably also made it from investments. Several are in show business.

It doesn't support your thesis.

Michael K said...

Original Mike, you are getting the totally demoralized medical profession from Obamacare and the permutations of the changes in healthcare.

Original Mike said...

I know.

Original Mike said...

I have never had a problem paying people well who provide me a service. I feel good about it. I have a need, they fill it. Win/win. OTOH, if people aren't compensated adequately they won't be there.

mockturtle said...

Dead Inside makes a good point. 'Poor' people in the US are much better off than even middle-class people in other countries and have much more opportunity. Opportunity does not guarantee outcome. What you do with opportunities is up to you.

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga said...

I’m a U.S. family physician who has decided to relocate to Canada. The hassles of working in the dysfunctional health care “system” in the U.S. have simply become too intense.

I’m not alone. According to a physician recruiter in Windsor, Ont., over the past decade more than 100 U.S. doctors have relocated to her city alone. More generally, the Canadian Institute for Health Information reports that Canada has been gaining more physicians from international migration than it’s been losing.

Original Mike said...

Yes, there are problems with our current healthcare system. Right now all we can hope for is you guys don't make it worse.

Rusty said...

Blogger Inga said...
"Pseudonyms and anonymity change the way (most) people talk. Sure, there are some sociopaths out there who talk the same face to face as how they write in "the comments section," but they are outliers for sure."

Yes indeed! I'd love to be face to face with at least one of them if they spoke that way to my face.

As for Trump voters, I think we non Trump voters were trying very hard to understand you people, getting extremely frustrated, disgusted and then on to resignation. I'll admit there are some normal people who voted for Trump. I guess they are seeing him far differently than we non Trumpists do, or something...


Jesus, Inga. I know people with downs syndrome with a firmer grasp of reason.
And yes. I do talk like this to peoples faces. Espacialy eyeball gougingly dense people like yourself. Although they're usually too dense to gat the drift.

Michael K said...

" More generally, the Canadian Institute for Health Information reports that Canada has been gaining more physicians from international migration than it’s been losing."

Canada cut way back on medical school admissions 25 years ago and closed nursing schools so they would rely on immigrants, mostly from third world countries.

I was at a meeting a few years ago and met the architect who was designing the first new hospital in Canada in 20 years.

We may have solved their emigration of doctors problem with Obamacare which is even worse for primary care docs.

Owen said...

Demoralized doctors? You mean the people who are paying six figures for malpractice insurance and have to hire specialists to install EHR technology mandated by Barkycare? And then have to hire extra admins to do the coding and extra data entry? And then fight the insurers to get reimbursed some fraction of what they were owed? Those guys?

I simply can't believe that.

Inga said...

LOL! Thanks for recognizing and admitting your sociopathy Rusty.

Funny stuff.

Francisco D said...

Inga,

You deserve credit for coming out of the "unknown" closet. I think that will make for a more reasonable dialogue over the long run.

In the meanwhile, I hope that you can be patient with the people you have really annoyed in the past. It seems that you are less focused on being annoying. I hope that proves to be the case.

Inga said...

Francisco, as in life offline, it takes two to tango. I'll try to be forgiving of those who annoyed me.

Francisco D said...

Inga said: "Francisco, as in life offline, it takes two to tango."

As a poor dancer, I think it takes two who know how to tango.

If my significant other takes up dancing to replace marathon running, I am in for some significant learning experiences.

AJ Lynch said...

You can learn a lot by reading the comments on news websites. Often I learn more from the comments than from the news story. I can tell the reporters almost never read the comments because they are not getting any smarter.

mockturtle said...

Owen posits: Demoralized doctors? You mean the people who are paying six figures for malpractice insurance and have to hire specialists to install EHR technology mandated by Barkycare? And then have to hire extra admins to do the coding and extra data entry? And then fight the insurers to get reimbursed some fraction of what they were owed? Those guys?

It has reached a critical stage. Physicians are retiring early and fewer replacements are coming from US medical schools. Most of the doctors here in my area are foreign-born and educated. While most of them are competent, there is some communication difficulty. And would we not prefer to encourage our own sons and daughters to eagerly pursue a medical career? My stepson, a surgeon, is only in his 50's but can't wait to retire. Medicine is not very rewarding any more and I'm not talking about money. The issues you mention are making the profession a nightmare.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Ricky and The Two Knives, for your Althousian enjoyment this Sunday.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dye05tvSoo

You can, probably even try, and thank me, but it won't be enough. My shit was stolen, no male-birth babies, and The Badgers heartbreak 'cause I had to run my mouth off.

Veil of shit-tears.

William said...

John D. Rockefeller's father was a charlatan. He pretended to be a physician and toured western towns selling snake oil. John D.'s life was to a large extent an expiation of his father's sins. He was extremely influential in the development of medicine as it is practiced in the United States. He funded the John Hopkins medical school which became the model for how doctors learned the trade and science of medicine. Previously medical education was much less clinical and focused. He also funded the Rockefeller Institute. In short order, the physicians and scientists gathered under its aegis found the cure or prevention for diseases such as yellow and scarlet fever......You can say that the government could have funded this research, but the fact is they didn't. When Rockefeller lost 25 million in an antitrust lawsuit, the liberal New York World crowed that The government could now use the money to by five battleships.......It is useful, also, to contemplate that Mother Jones became a labor organizer after her children all died of yellow fever.....I'm pretty sure Mother Jones, were she alive today, would be in favor of universal health coverage and for the outright appropriation on Rockefeller's assets.

William said...

I'm inclined to think that the next big breakthrough in modern medicine will be achieved by some greedy bastard who wants to get rich. I'm open to the possibility that it might also be the work of some rich bastard who funds research into some private passion of his. I think the chances of it being developed as part of some government program are slim indeed.......They've had socialized medicine in Europe for over two generations. What were the blockbuster drugs or innovative procedures that were developed there?

mockturtle said...

The 'words' micro-privilege and micro-aggression should both be eliminated at once from any form of discussion. Along with 'empowerment'.

Kevin said...

One of the biggest things hindering the health care debate IMO is the idea by many that if we just look to country x's system there are easy fixes for our own. In addition, the only thing holding us back from country x's system is "lobbyists".

However, most people don't understand that you can't just import the pieces of the system you like from country x (price controls!), but the whole thing - lock, stock and barrel. Taking one piece from country x and putting it in country y can have all sorts of unintended consequences.

Most of those systems have components (low doctor's salaries, longer waiting times, parallel private systems, less access to high-technology healthcare, much higher taxes, etc.), which would be difficult for the American consumer to accept.

So instead of saying that country x has a feature you like, the sane argument is that country x has a feature you like and a feature that Americans would not like, but that Americans would gladly adopt both. Unfortunately, that also takes time to investigate what people might not like about country x's system...

Michael K said...

have to hire specialists to install EHR technology mandated by Barkycare?

I quit teaching largely because of EHR. 25 years ago, I was an enthusiast. I had been a programmer and have been very computer savvy since the first PC I bought in 1981.

It was designed by low bidders who had no experience with medical case.

He funded the John Hopkins medical school which became the model for how doctors learned the trade and science of medicine.

Actually, it was funded by Mary E Garrett who was the heiress of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad. She donated $600,000 to open the medical school on the condition that women were admitted on an equal basis with men.

The first class of 18 included three women.

mockturtle said...

Ideally, we would have a fee-for-service system where providers would, in lieu of insurance headaches, provide a number of pro bono services each month [I know quite a few physicians, physician assistants and ARNPs who already do this]. I think medical insurance has not only driven the cost of health care through the roof but it is destroying the system of delivery by forcing obstacles between provider and patient.

Michael K said...

What were the blockbuster drugs or innovative procedures that were developed there?

The French discovered the first anti-psychotic drugs that actually worked. Chlorpromazine began as an antihistamine, then anesthetists noticed it sedated surgical patients. A woman intern in Canada first used it for psychosis.

The discovery was soon after the war and some French discoveries were during the war.

In general, government research, with the exception of the early space program, produces few discoveries.

The best example of the Human Genome Program which was established with Jim Watson as director with a plan to spend ten years discovering the genetic code.

Craig Venter started a privately funded competing program, about the same time. His plan was to sell the rights to useful genes, an idea that horrified the bureaucrats.

He used a different technique which is well explained in two books. One is Venter's biography, which is excellent. The first review on Amazon was written by me.

The other good book is "The Genome War, which tells the story from the outside.

Venter sequenced the human genome in two years and his credit was diluted seriously by the fact that his company had sequenced the DNA on Monica Lewinski's dress. Clinton was pissed and forced Venter to share credit with Watson who had done nothing useful.

Venter has continued to do great research with private funds. He calls his principle company, "The Institute for Genomic Research," or TIGR.

I have a series of blog posts on my own blog about Venter and molecular biology.

Clark said...

I've always felt that there was a distinct racist undertone to most liberal discussions of privilege. It's largely a bunch of white people demanding that other white people ackowledge that we think we're better than others and have been given opportunities others haven't. Of course there are people for whom that is true but it is not an incontrovertible institutional reality. More troubling though, is how their discussions of privilege are almost inevitably followed by policy prescriptions for what's best for these poor downtrodden minorities, the conservatives among whom just can't seem to figure out what's best for them. If only they'd listen to us, their betters.

pacwest said...

I've not seen it mentioned in this thread, but isn't end of life one of the biggest costs of healthcare? How do you deal with that?

AReasonableMan said...

The complaints about the life of an MD would have more force if it weren't for the fact that undergraduate students are falling all over themselves to get into Med School. MD programs remain the most competitive post-grad programs. Students aren't stupid, law school applications are down because the job market for lawyers is in decline. Self-evidently, this is not the case for MDs.

mockturtle said...

pacwest asks, somewhat disingenuously, I've not seen it mentioned in this thread, but isn't end of life one of the biggest costs of healthcare? How do you deal with that?

Well, that's easy! Anyone nearing the end of life must be euthanized in order to minimize costs. /sarc [I have to add that, as Inga or someone will quote my heartless comment in another context].

Original Mike said...

Blogger Clark said..."I've always felt that there was a distinct racist undertone to most liberal discussions of privilege. It's largely a bunch of white people demanding that other white people ackowledge that we think we're better than others and have been given opportunities others haven't."

Yeah, the people pushing this privilege stuff think they are better than others and feel guilty about it.

Original Mike said...

"I've not seen it mentioned in this thread, but isn't end of life one of the biggest costs of healthcare? How do you deal with that?

With respect, I'm completely unimpressed with this observation. It's right up there with "You'll find your keys in the last place you look."

Original Mike said...

"The complaints about the life of an MD would have more force if it weren't for the fact that undergraduate students are falling all over themselves to get into Med School."

Who's opinion commands more respect; the teenagers trying to get in or the oldsters leaving early?

AReasonableMan said...

Original Mike said...
Who's opinion commands more respect; the teenagers trying to get in or the oldsters leaving early?


They are not teenagers and they are investing in a life time of work rather than blowing hot air at no cost.

Original Mike said...

I taught graduate students for decades, ARM. They really don't have a basis to judge what they are embarking on. How could it be otherwise?

I don't mean that as criticism because, as you rightly say, they are investing their life in the endeavor, but do you really think they are better informed than the 60 year old? Your case is absurd.

wildswan said...

Inga
Trump addressed my two biggest concerns - 1. Abortion and the genocide against the blacks which is an ongoing consequence of support for Planned Parenthood and its ethos. 2. The collapse of the manufacturing economy and the American economy in general which Trump explained as due to unfair trade deals, undue deference to globalism, and overregulation/overtaxation. After that, I came to understand that the overarching theme - Make America Great Again - meant these concerns and many others. All were going unaddressed because the Democrats had turned on the workers, regarded them as worthless yahoos and were conducting a kulturkampf against them and most other Americans.

And I believe that Trump had a particularly clear view on these issues because he was a builder and the building industry was very hard hit by the crash of 2008. Construction used to be the number 1 employer in the US and now it is number 13. He would have seen how people he and his father had known were adversely affected and how indifferent the Dems under Obama were to it all. So that is why a privileged person might become a good advocate for people having tough times in the circumstances after the crash.

AReasonableMan said...

Original Mike said...
I taught graduate students for decades, ARM. They really don't have a basis to judge what they are embarking on. How could it be otherwise?


Apparently you failed to speak to the students. Most students applying for Med school carefully weight up their options. Many have relatives or friends in the business and others will shadow physicians to see what it is like. But, more to the point. they are investing a vast amount of their time and money in going to Med school. It has a genuine cost, unlike blowing hot air on the internet.

Michael K said...

The complaints about the life of an MD would have more force if it weren't for the fact that undergraduate students are falling all over themselves to get into Med School.

Most of the students I saw over 15 years were either Asian or foreign born. The numbers of white American born is declining.

Now, you can interpret that several ways. White students are not qualified by admission standards, and that could be true.

Or they are savvy enough to look for other majors, like Petroleum Engineering as one friend's son chose as a major.

I don't know the answer but I do see a shift in medical students ethnicity.

Inga said...

Mockturtle said...
"pacwest asks, somewhat disingenuously, I've not seen it mentioned in this thread, but isn't end of life one of the biggest costs of healthcare? How do you deal with that?"

"Well, that's easy! Anyone nearing the end of life must be euthanized in order to minimize costs. /sarc [I have to add that, as Inga or someone will quote my heartless comment in another context]."
------------
What is your problem today Mockturtle? From personal attacks on another thread to your snide comment here. Did you accidentally take a bitch pill instead of your BP med? I guess being civil to you was misconstrued as weakness.

There is something called a Living Will and Advanced Directives later that has been around long before Obamacare. I'd suggest you do some research and make your own decisions according to your end of life plans so your kids don't make the wrong decision for you.

Inga said...

Wayyyy, too much time online today, yikes.

Rusty said...

Inga said...
"LOL! Thanks for recognizing and admitting your sociopathy Rusty.

Funny stuff."

Then again some people are so dense information can't enter their heads.