December 6, 2016

A new class-action lawsuit accuses a big job-placement agency of discriminating against blacks job-seekers — in favor of Hispanics.

The NYT reports.
Kevin James, 29, one of the named plaintiffs in the suit, said he had applied for work through MVP on roughly 20 occasions but had been given a job only once. He sat in the MVP office waiting in vain while Hispanic applicants got assignments, he said.

On the one occasion when Mr. James was given a job, he said, he was sent to a packaging company where supervisors were hostile toward him, “hovering” over him and other black employees as they worked.

“It just seemed like a lot of tension, like they didn’t really want me to be there,” Mr. James said. He added that the staff of the MVP office in Cicero “was mainly Mexicans” and that the employees were not welcoming toward African-American job seekers. “I’d say the whole staff was Mexican,” he said. “It was like the whole thing was built up mainly around Hispanics."
There is evidence that MVP used the code words "guapo" — handsome — and "feo" — ugly:
"They said African-Americans wanted to keep their hands clean and not get dirty and not work as hard as a Mexican — that’s why they called them guapos,” [said Rosa Ceja, 29, a former dispatcher at MVP’s office in Elmwood Park, Ill.]. MVP employees were told that using the words “black” or “Mexican” instead of the code words, especially in an email, was a fireable offense....

The vast majority of Hispanic job applicants served by MVP were in the United States illegally, Ms. Ceja added, and their vulnerability made them attractive short-term workers. “That makes it harder for them to complain or do anything,” she said. “They are so scared to raise their voice and say, ‘Hey, this is not fair.’”
More at the link.

108 comments:

rhhardin said...

Send in some other classes and get the complete matrix. With East Asians, whites, South Asians, Hispanics, Blacks and Australian Aborigines could could have more than a dozen class action suits.

Curious George said...

Keep voting Democratic dumbfucks.

Curious George said...

"Kevin James, 29, one of the named plaintiffs in the suit, said he had applied for work through MVP on roughly 20 occasions but had been given a job only once."

Maybe they saw "Paul Blart: Mall Cop?"

John said...

That last bit doesn't make sense. So the Hispanics felt that because they were illegal, they could not complain. Complain about what? Being advantaged over blacks? Why on earth would they complain? Not their problem.

And if the employment agents are Hispanic, how could they possibly be discriminating? Doesn't everyone know that it is only possible for whites to be racist? Or discriminate based on race?

John Henry

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Sounds like a cause the Trump justice department should get behind.

John said...

Guapo does literally mean handsome. Here in PR it can also be a pejorative "El guapo del barrio" is a guy who goes around knowing how good looking he is. Sot of a PR Giovanni Seven Beauties. Can be a rather annoying type.

John Henry

Bob Boyd said...

"Doesn't everyone know that it is only possible for whites to be racist?"

They must have been white Hispanics.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

John said...

Complain about what?

OSHA violations. Being shorted on overtime pay. Being paid below minimum wage. Other labor law violations.

John said...

Another thought: If the Hispanics being placed are illegal, there is no need to prove discrimination. Simply get the migra after them and shut off the supply of Hispanic workers.

John Henry

DanTheMan said...

I have been assured that minorities can't be racist.

robother said...

"So the Hispanics felt that because they were illegal, they could not complain. Complain about what?"

The CEO of Boulder Ice Cream was busted this weekend for forcing two illegal Mexican female workers to have sex with him. Authorities are calling for other stop come forward. Apparently, the women were threatened with being turned in if they complained.

Bob Boyd said...

"That last bit doesn't make sense."

Complain about their treatment by MVP's customers where they were sent to work.

GAHCindy said...

John, I assume that means they could be mistreated, underpaid, and taken advantage of, which is what made them more attractive hires than the others.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Simply get the migra after them and shut off the supply of Hispanic workers.

John Henry, will anyone even take that call anymore?

Sebastian said...

"They said African-Americans wanted to keep their hands clean and not get dirty and not work as hard as a Mexican." Question: is such stereotyping illegal even if it is accurate?

Interesting source: Lee Jussim, Social perception and social reality: Why accuracy dominates bias and self-fulfilling prophecy.

John said...

Ignorance is bliss said:

"OSHA violations. Being shorted on overtime pay. Being paid below minimum wage. Other labor law violations."

That may be true but there is nothing about it in the article. I went and read the whole thing and it is clear that in context there statement:

“That makes it harder for them to complain or do anything,” she said. “They are so scared to raise their voice and say, ‘Hey, this is not fair.’”

Means that they expect the Hispanics to complain about having an unfair advantage in hiring.

As I said before, there is no possible reason I can see why they would want to complain about something that gives them an advantage. Not their problem.

John Henry

boycat said...

OSHA violations. Being shorted on overtime pay. Being paid below minimum wage. Other labor law violations.

And shutting them down for these imagined violations helps black job seekers how?

Laslo Spatula said...

Lamar Gonna Set You Straight....

God, I am so tired of you White People. You find you can’t push us Black People around no more so you go importing Mexicans to be your new slaves: so now you got your slaves again, AND you’re fucking us Black People in the ass by taking what jobs we have and giving them to the Mexicans — and you wonder why some of us think White People are the spawn of the Devil...

Look: we expect you’re never gonna treat us Black People fair, but you could at least be Unfair with a sense of Shame — but you can’t even do THAT, can you…?

You always needing new slaves is gonna tear your Country down, and you don’t even see it. With us Blacks back in the Day you at least were smart enough to keep the numbers in check, you feel me…?

And when the Shit DOES come down you all are gonna expect us Black People to be the ones shooting the Mexicans in the ghettoes and the barrios, because you ain’t gonna get your own damned White hands dirty…

Enjoy it while it lasts, White People: you’re bringing in your own Destruction to have your lawns mowed cheap. Don’t worry about me, though: I’ll still be here to tell you I told you so…

You think you got Problems? Fuck You.

I am Laslo.

JAORE said...

Anyone that thinks working class blacks and Hispanics are natural allies are out of their minds.

I was at a national civil rights conference for my former agency once. I was approached by a black civil rights officer from the Atlanta Regional Office. He told me that I was among a "select few" that was invited to a luncheon hosted by the (black) Regional Civil Rights Officer. The lunch, must have been 20 or so guests, most of whom I knew, was very nice. Then the host began to speak.

The short version?

Blacks got set asides for minorities and AA for hiring put into the law. And we did it for US, the African Americans. We need to stop allowing these laws to benefit women and Hispanics.

I have no idea what made these guys think I would be receptive to such a message. But I informed my contact I would not be attending any more such luncheons.

There were other, and worse, examples I could give.

John said...

Bad Lieutenant:

Hopefully after January 20 there will be someone who will not only take the call but act on it.

John Henry

coupe said...

A business dependent on temporary labor is a sham business. It's a vehicle for rich white people to make money. It is a business plan that investors should shun.

The fact that there are investors (probably the Mob) and banks, who will provide capital to these businesses, shows how utterly corrupt the country has become.

We are not becoming "great again."

I would support INS raids on these companies, and rounding-up the illegal aliens, and providing fines that target the investors and banks the hardest.

Bankrupt the investors, and make America great again. Make temporary hire a federal crime, or at least heavily taxed to pay for INS and The Mexican Wall.

The Cracker Emcee said...

Maybe Black folks are catching on. But their own communities will never allow them to speak the truth.

Otto said...

Just another avenue for Ann's profession to make money so that they can have their lattes on sunday after a wonderful picture taking walk with nature while having lawn done by illegals.

John said...

Blogger coupe said...

A business dependent on temporary labor is a sham business. It's a vehicle for rich white people to make money. It is a business plan that investors should shun.

The fact that there are investors (probably the Mob) and banks, who will provide capital to these businesses, shows how utterly corrupt the country has become.


Nonsense, Coupe. Businesses must operate more leanly. Customers, such as you and I, are demanding it. We want quicker deliveries and lower cost. Inventory is incredibly expensive to carry (typically about 30% per year of value in the industries names) and slows responsiveness.

Less inventory means that it is harder to even out production flows. Hence they hire and fire labor as needed to meet demand. Are you saying that they should hire permanent employees and then have them sit idle half the time?

As for your bullshit about "the Mob", any evidence? Westrock, for example, is one of the largest paper companies in the US.

Very few manufacturing companies don't have temps on their floor at any given time. Pretty much always in unskilled, scut-work, jobs.

Another advantage to temps is that they can serve as a trial for permanent workers. Back when I had a job, my company never hired any permanent admin people directly. We always had temps working in various capacities. (Maternity leave, for example) When a permanent place came open, we would hire one of the temps. We had to pay the agency a fee, of course, but it is still a lot cheaper than taking a chance on someone who then doesn't work out.

Ditto unskilled production workers.

It is easy to fling shit. Overcoming blissful ignorance is much harder.

Why do companies leave the US? Lots of reasons but somewhere on the list is bullshit like yours about the Mob and other illegalities with no evidence at all.

John Henry

buwaya puti said...

True, believable.
You will find a lot of this among contractors here in CA, unless they have to deal with their principals hiring rules, such as for public works, in which case they are integrated. There are all-Mexican crews, all-Asian (well, Chinese) etc.

Seeing Red said...

If you make temporary hire a crime, how do retailers hire for Christmas?

John said...

Overcoming blissful ignorance is much harder.


Believe it or not, Ignorance is Bliss, that was not directed at you.

John Henry

Owen said...

JAORE: "...Blacks got set asides for minorities and AA for hiring put into the law. And we did it for US, the African Americans. We need to stop allowing these laws to benefit women and Hispanics."

Ouch. The problem with identity politics is that it divides. The divisions get finer and finer, and it gets harder and harder to build a coalition. It was obvious long ago that these groups are rivals for the same spoils.

chickelit said...

Otto wrote: Just another avenue for Ann's profession to make money so that they can have their lattes on sunday after a wonderful picture taking walk with nature while having lawn done by illegals.

I believe that Meade is a legal emigrant from Ohio or Indiana.

Now fetch me another beer, Otto

John said...

Back when lots of clothes were made in NY, many of the manufacturers would employ only Jews. It looked like discrimination by the Jewish owners in favor of their own tribe.

In fact, it was because with a 6 day week, plants could either give Saturday or Sunday off. Jews don't work on the Sabbath, Christians don't work on the Lord's day. Having a mixed work force would have created havoc with some off on Saturday and others off on Sunday.

This, combined with the fact that many occupations were not eaisly open to Jews and other reasons, is why the garment industry was predominantly controlled by Jews.

A more homogeneous workforce will likely function more smoothly than a more heterogeneous workforce.

John Henry

Jupiter said...

In my field, they have H1-B visas, which are essentially indentures. A worker on an H1-B gets paid much less than an American, and will be deported if he leaves his current employer. So, yeah, importing slaves is legal again.

But in any case, my employer makes no bones about the fact that they discriminate on the basis of race and sex. They are proud of it. It is stated policy. Since the discrimination is against white males, it is perfectly legal. As I think it should be. But so should the opposite.

Seeing Red said...

It's a sanctuary firm/job.

It's what Rahm wants.

Mid-Life Lawyer said...

I predict that the GOP will embrace the Hispanic community more and more in the near future and that Hispanics will continue to vote in larger proportional numbers for GOP candidates. Hispanics are big on work and family and they haven't had 50 years of Democratic public policy pressure destroying their incentive to work and their incentive to have intact families. The undocumented have had to work to make it here as most of them are afraid to try to work the system even if it is available to them. President Trump will lead the GOP to some type of amnesty/citizenship for most of the undocumented who are in the U.S. now (after some kind of border strengthening) now and that will cinch the deal once and for all.

But the Democrats will still get the majority of Black votes. So they got that going for them.

I expect a lot more of these stories as the Black civil rights industry start targeting Hispanics.

Bob Ellison said...

Sounds like a business opportunity. All these motivated, unfairly treated workers of various colors and genders could make for a great workforce.

coupe said...

Seeing Red said...If you make temporary hire a crime, how do retailers hire for Christmas?

"hiring for Christmas" is as obscene and evil as it sounds.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Quite, JH. I merely asked, for information as the present time, whether you can actually report someone and make something happen. I suspect not because my town is full of Distinguished Foreign Visitors, some of whom I have often thought deserve a little attention. They seem to have a sense of immunity.

SDaly said...

MLL -

You are merely restating the decades-long claim that Hispanics are "natural conservatives" who will eventually turn en masse to Republican policies. Do you pay any attention at all to the economic policies of Mexico, Central and South America?

Not gonna happen.

Jupiter said...

Mid-Life Lawyer said...
"I predict that the GOP will embrace the Hispanic community more and more in the near future and that Hispanics will continue to vote in larger proportional numbers for GOP candidates."

You and Jeb.

coupe said...

John said...Are you saying that they should hire permanent employees and then have them sit idle half the time?

No. I'm saying that they should hire directly. When needed, as needed. They should not use agencies, who's only function is to discriminate on their behalf.

coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
EDH said...

We in the USA need to focus on the institutions that bring all races together.

In my experience, that's being in the audience of either The Jerry Springer Show or professional wrestling.

Jake said...

The job agency staffed mostly by hispanics were putting hispanics into low wage jobs where, beacuse the job-seekers were illegal, the employers could pay shit and treat the employees that way?

This helps?

FullMoon said...

“That makes it harder for them to complain or do anything,” she said. “They are so scared to raise their voice and say, ‘Hey, this is not fair.’”

Complaining/whining.
Why I gotta do it? Why can;t I talk on my phone while I work? Why I bein; paid less than the union guy? Why I gotta wear this company shirt, it looks stupid.

Sebastian said...

@MLL: "I predict that the GOP will embrace the Hispanic community more and more in the near future and that Hispanics will continue to vote in larger proportional numbers for GOP candidates." Right. Criticism from other commentators is misguided: Jeb is irrelevant, Hispanics don't have to be "natural conservatives" to be embraced. As Trump showed, the party adapts to the voters, not the other way around. A simple equation will drive GOP politics, at least at the national level: largest minority + big chunk of second-largest minority = majority.

Jose_K said...

That is why is so perplexing that both Afro-Americans and Hispanic vote Dem. It could a Zero sum game for minorities

Peter said...

""They said African-Americans wanted to keep their hands clean and not get dirty and not work as hard as a Mexican." Question: is such stereotyping illegal even if it is accurate?"

There's Jesse Jackson's quote as an example of rational discrimination: "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved." Jesse Jackson here expresses an understanding that in a world of limited information, race can be a rational tool to assessing risk.

The argument against rational discrimination is that we all deserve to be assessed as individuals. If information about individuals were always complete and accurate there would be no rational discrimination, yet, not only is it impossible to obtain complete information about anyone but, obtaining even partial but reasonably complete information is costly. And thus the temptation to use quick-and-dirty heuristics.

Situations like this seem all but inevitable, as companies hire temps to shield themselves somewhat from employment-law liability and, of course, to deal with seasonal and otherwise variable demand. And temp-labor agencies use heuristic shortcuts when assessing candidates because doing so can be cost-effective, especially with temp labor where no one can afford to spend all that much on a more accurate and complete assessment.

And so it goes: law enforcement will always be pushing this rock back up the hill, so long as legal and economic incentives favor making quick, biased, sometimes accurate assessments of employment candidates. And other than preaching "But that's wrong and unlawful!", does anyone actually have any real solutions to offer?

mockturtle said...

Emails, code words...sounds like a conspiracy theory, to me. ;-)

Jupiter said...

Sebastian said...
"A simple equation will drive GOP politics, at least at the national level: largest minority + big chunk of second-largest minority = majority."

Well, except, Paul will be happy to help you rob Peter. Getting Peter on board for that plan is not so easy.

Jupiter said...

Peter said...

"And so it goes: law enforcement will always be pushing this rock back up the hill, so long as legal and economic incentives favor making quick, biased, sometimes accurate assessments of employment candidates. And other than preaching "But that's wrong and unlawful!", does anyone actually have any real solutions to offer?"

Why yes, Peter. How about letting people hire whoever they like, based on whatever criteria they like? How about the fat-ass government sticks to doing the few things it does least poorly? How about Legalize Freedom?

What you perhaps miss is that, from the government's point of view, there can be no better solution than to keep fixing what cannot be fixed, and getting paid handsomely to do it. That is always going to be the Democrat's plan, because they are the Party of Government.

Michael said...

In case anyone was wondering why a fair number of African-Americans voted for Trump or stayed home...

R.J. Chatt said...

Where I live all the social services are staffed by Hispanics, both government offices and private agencies. It's almost like visiting a foreign country. (In a nice way.)

I decided at one point to change doctors because the womens'health clinic I used for at least ten years gradually turned into a clinic of choice for illegal Hispanic immigrants. Suddenly I found the receptionists would be warm and friendly with patients in Spanish and cold and disinterested in patients who spoke English. One day I was turning in a sample for testing and the receptionist queried me, "You're a patient here?" She was totally incredulous that a white person was actually a patient there. That and a few other unpleasant changes like having to pay in advance of seeing the doctor, was the final blow.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

"hiring for Christmas" is as obscene and evil as it sounds.

Really? It doesn't sound either to me.

Employer needs some extra help because of increased customer traffic. Advertises that they have some seasonal openings. People who are interested in the seasonal jobs respond.

Result, employer is able to handle the additional business, passes on some of the additional profit to the seasonal employees in the form of wages. Even the government wins, they get additional tax revenue.

When I was in college it was standard to try to get seasonal positions with UPS. They would interview for them a couple of months in advance. I don't remember anyone feeling exploited.

coupe said...

Ron Winkleheimer said...When I was in college it was standard to try to get seasonal positions with UPS. They would interview for them a couple of months in advance. I don't remember anyone feeling exploited.

Did UPS use an agency, or drive pick-ups to the empty lot where Mexicans were standing around waiting for day labor?

Of course not. They chose the American way.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

@coupe

No, they did not. And I will agree with you that hiring illegals in order to get around labor laws is evil because, among other things, it frays the social contract. And that temp agencies often exploit their "clients."

However, that is not the same as calling seasonal hiring "obscene and evil."

The fact is that temp agencies are able to exploit their "clients" because there is a labor surplus. The labor surplus exists because the PTB want a labor surplus, thus the Hispanic day laborers.

Rick said...

Why is the NYT complaining that jobs are awarded on skin color? Did they forget they support that?

FullMoon said...

A young acquaintance here in "Silicon Valley" works (union)construction. Mexican workers begin working off the clock 15 minutes early. They don't complain, they try to impress the bosses so they get hired for the next project. Rest of the crews do the same so as not to look like slackers in comparison.

John said...

Coupe, you are showing your ignorance and flinging shit like a monkey in a cage.

Dunno how Ron got his job but I do know that UPS uses temp agencies and has for many, many years. Fedex does too.

Lots of benefits to using temp agencies:

1) They have a pool of workers that they have pre-screened so can probably send the next day. As opposed to running ads, interviewing checking references, negotiate wages, etc.

2) An employee from a temp agency can be told not to come back tomorrow if they are not working out. Or if they are no longer needed before the expected term. Firing someone, even a temp, can be a royal pain in the ass subject to lawsuits, state and federal agencies and other stuff.

3) Agency temps know they are temps. Directly hired temporary employees may lose sight of the temporary nature of their employment. Employers can sometimes lose sight of it. When employers start treating directly hired temps as regulars, even inadvertently, it can cause a lot of problems.

4) Temp agencies take care of all the administrative BS for the employer. All the employer does is pay one bill at the end of the month.

5) Lots of people like working for temp agencies. They like the flexibility, they like working in different places and jobs. They don't like having to be going round to companies applying for jobs.

Lots of other reasons why temp agencies are so common.

Companies contract out their landscaping, custodial, maintenance, logistics and many other employees. Why would they not contract out temporary hiring?

I think you are just showing your ignorance. Again.

John Henry

Otto said...

Sorry chickelit - meade is a rara avis.

Lawrence Person said...

"The vast majority of Hispanic job applicants served by MVP were in the United States illegally"

And this is how you get Trump...

coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JAORE said...

"... they should hire directly. When needed, as needed. "

Great idea, except the company would have to expend a great deal of time getting a list of available workers by skill sets. Include background checks as needed. Read that added employees just for that task and cost.

Maintaining that list, keeping it current, would entail even more effort. Read that added keeping those employees just for that task and cost.

Then, when numbers are needed there would be scheduling, interviews, negotiations, possibly drug testing depending on the position, and paperwork issues. Read that more effort, cost and delays.

Nah, can't see why an honest, well run company would even consider a temp agency.

Despite the wasted time and effort, I admit thatdirect hiring could be done. But the firing when the need tails off..... Ah, there's the rub.

Big difference between legitimate temp agencies and the guy that trolls the Home Depot lot for under the table sheet rock workers.

Hagar said...

You are merely restating the decades-long claim that Hispanics are "natural conservatives" who will eventually turn en masse to Republican policies. Do you pay any attention at all to the economic policies of Mexico, Central and South America?

Not gonna happen.


So SDaly, why are all these people fleeing those countries and heading for the U.S.?

JAORE said...

John,
You must have posted while I was writing and editing. You said it better than I did.

coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ron Winkleheimer said...

@John

If I recall correctly, it was a direct hire. But this was many, many, many years ago. Another job I worked during college was unskilled labor in construction. That was so long ago that I don't recall any Hispanic labor. I was a direct hire because a guy I knew in college worked for the company as skilled labor (framing carpenter) and put in a good word for me. All of the other unskilled laborers were from a temp agency and were on parole. Cops and parole officers often visited the sight to check on them.

Unknown said...

I have to admit, it is tempting to shed crocodile tears about this. Unfettered illegal immigration AND massive legal immigration is going to affect black people more than any other group. It is just a fact.

Go Trump, he can make this case and possible find a way to wedge the black voter from the suicidal democrat party apparatus.

John said...

While speaking of temps and contracting out, there is an entire industry called "Contract Manufacturing"

These are US companies, with plants in the US, making all sorts of products for all sorts of companies.

Think your Colgate Toothpaste in made in a Colgate plant? It might be. It is just as likely to be made in a contract manufacturing plant that also makes Crest, Sensodyne and 20 other brands of toothpaste.

Sometimes this is to meet demand due to seasonal variation, sometimes it it because it is a new product that the brand owner (Colgate etc) doesn't know if it is going to work, sometimes it is to fill the pipeline with a new product, sometimes it is because of specialized expertise.

Perhaps a third to half of all food products you buy are made under contract by a company which has nothing at all to do with the name on the label. Ditto most other products.

I was once in a Miller brewery that bottled 80 different brands of beer, including the various Miller brands. They only made 7 different beers but bottled them with 70 different labels including some famous names that would surprise you.

A battery company made batteries under their own national name brand but the same batteries also went in Walmart, Kmart, walgreens, Radioshack and 100 other brands. You don't really think they were all different batteries, do you?

And they didn't even make the batteries. They were all made in a plant in China. This plant makes for Rayovac, Everready, duracell and the other national brands. In other words, buy the cheapest batteries you can find. They all come from the same Chinese plant.

John Henry

John said...

So Coupe,

I am still waiting to hear how you know that the companies mentioned in the article are financed by "The Mob".

Otherwise I stand by my original statement that you are just flinging shit.

John Henry

coupe said...

The sad thing is, most American companies perform all sorts of gymnastics to increase profit, but in the end, they all are just making penny stock earnings.

I'm thinking they could get the same earnings by just doing the right thing. Hell, earning might even improve.

coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ron Winkleheimer said...

@John

I toured the Heaven's Hill distillery a couple of years back and a great deal of their business is bottling for other companies, primarily liquor of various types. Quite a few distilleries don't have bottling facilities. Of course the distilleries are actually producing the product, they just contract out the packaging of it.

Also, I met a couple at a party once who would go to China for a couple of months each year where they would basically rent facilities at a manufacturing plant to produce goods.

I asked them what goods they manufactured and they said they manufactured whatever they could sell. I think they were getting contracts from people who wanted something produced, but didn't have the facilities, so they subcontracted it to the couple who went to China and rented the equipment/facility/people to actually produce the goods.

Gusty Winds said...

The Hispanic temporary labor in Chicago is like water going over the falls. There is a never ending supply. And by hiring through a temp agency 1) They will work 7 days a week, 28 to 49 days straight to get all the overtime they can get, 2) companies don't have to pay for health insurance, and 3) if someone is undocumented the responsibility lies on the temp agency who are experts at taking care of the Social Security number headaches.

Companies keep "temporary" employees on the temp payroll for years, never moving them to full time positions. These immigrants are good people, but are completely exploited in Northern Illinois and Chicago. It's not even a secret.

I believe the lawsuit completely. If you get and African-American in the mix who knows anything labor rights you'll wreck a good thing.

Qwinn said...

Damn, Laslo appears to have Crack Emcee down cold.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

so they subcontracted it to the couple who went to China and rented the equipment/facility/people to actually produce the goods.

Of course, in a 5 - 10 years it won't be necessary to go to China.

Automation is going to make setting up a facility to produce goods "on demand" as easy as renovating a warehouse to house the machinery. Infrastructure and the government environment are going to be the most important factors.

Of course, automation means a lot of people are going to lose their jobs, no matter what happens politically.

Michael K said...

Blogger The Cracker Emcee said...
Maybe Black folks are catching on. But their own communities will never allow them to speak the truth.


It is a mystery to me why they haven't so far but the destruction of the black family seems to have created an entire cohort of unemployables.

Hispanics are hard workers and I have no problem with legalizing a percentage once the border is controlled. We don't need millions of illiterate peasants who don't even speak Spanish.

Los Angeles, and soon California, has been destroyed by the illegals and the Democrats dependence on them.

Jersey Fled said...

But I thought illegal aliens were only taking jobs that African Americans didn't want.

damikesc said...

Maybe they saw "Paul Blart: Mall Cop?"

Can't be.

The movie had a sequel.

The CEO of Boulder Ice Cream was busted this weekend for forcing two illegal Mexican female workers to have sex with him. Authorities are calling for other stop come forward. Apparently, the women were threatened with being turned in if they complained.

...were they hot?

mockturtle said...

Hispanics are hard workers and I have no problem with legalizing a percentage once the border is controlled.

Have to agree. Here in AZ the economy depends on ag workers. Watching them work, I can't picture blacks or whites doing that work--or doing it as well.

traditionalguy said...

A white lawyer Joining a black professional advancement group, really as a donor, but including a membership, is an eye opener. If you do attend a meeting, the leadership gives the members reminders never to hire a white lawyer. They see no problem at all.

Now Hispanics are doing it to them. But DJT is slandering a biased Hispanic Judge by asking for a fair shake.

Peter said...

"While speaking of temps and contracting out, there is an entire industry called "Contract Manufacturing"

There was a time (long, long ago) when something like a Zenith TV was made in a factory that had a big "Zenith" sign in front, but today essentially 100% of all electronics are manufactured by contract manufacturers few have ever heard of (even though some, such as Sanmina, are huge companies- http://www.sanmina.com/ ).

"Economies of scale" are much of the reason, as a contract manufacturer can often keep a factory operating at close to peak capacity as demand for one product may wax as another wanes, but especially because the contract manufacturers can negotiate much better prices on materials as they buy in huge quantities. The pioneer here was probably Cisco Systems, which made close to nothing in-house.

And part of it is contemporary biz-theory, which sees marketing and making (manufacturing) as separate disciplines. Of course language changes more slowly, with people using "make" as a synonym for "brand," even though the two often have little to do with one another.

And finally, there was my youthful experience working in a bread factory. The factory made the usual squishy white stuff and all of it was essentially the same (although the caramel-colored loaves were sold as "wheat" bread). And at the end of the line some of that bread went into the generic/store brand/off-brand bags and some of it into nicer bags, the ones showing fields of wheat waving in the breeze against distant mountains, and with healthy-sounding (or at least honey/farm-y sounding) brand names.

And, yes, the latter did sell for about 400% more than the cheap stuff, even though the bread in the bags was all pretty much the same stuff.

GrapeApe said...

Go tell aunt Rhody,
Go tell aunt Rhody,
Go tell aunt Rhody
The old grey goose is dead.

She died in the mill pond,
She died in the mill pond,
She died in the mill pond
Standing on her head.

And the unraveling of identity politics continues apace.

Anglelyne said...

Michael K: "Hispanics are hard workers and I have no problem with legalizing a percentage once the border is controlled."

mockturtle: Have to agree. Here in AZ the economy depends on ag workers. Watching them work, I can't picture blacks or whites doing that work--or doing it as well.


But they don't stay in ag, nor do their children become ag workers. (Most illegals are not ag workers and are doing jobs citizens certainly will do, and did do before the illegal influx.) So legalizing them doesn't solve the alleged problem of needing these people to do the jobs Americans won't do. If your state economy depends on illegal labor, it's going to go right on depending on fresh new supplies of illegal labor after you've amnestied the current lot.

Bruce Hayden said...

Blogger FullMoon said...
A young acquaintance here in "Silicon Valley" works (union)construction. Mexican workers begin working off the clock 15 minutes early. They don't complain, they try to impress the bosses so they get hired for the next project. Rest of the crews do the same so as not to look like slackers in comparison.


Maybe 4 decades ago, I worked at a brickyard in Boulder, CO. Hard work, either hot and humid, or out in the summer sun, depending on whether you were making or stacking the bricks. Home of CU, and both owners were CU grads. Would have been the perfect summer job for CU students, except that invariably wouldn't last the week. Plant ran eight months a year (don't lay a lot of bricks in the winter in CO). Bulk of the low level employees were Mexican. Back then, no one worried about their citizenship, so many were probably illegal. They would work hard for the 8 months, then go back home to their families and live like kings. They were great to work with. For example, maybe 5 of us would be stacking bricks on drying racks as they came out of the pug mill. Two young guys would start racing, seeing who could stack the most bricks the fastest. Machismo. And, the rest of us could kick back for 5-10 minutes, while they did all our work. Then, another pair would do it 15-20 minutes later. They worked hard, had fun doing it, and never complained. At a job that white college students couldn't do for an entire week before quitting.

SukieTawdry said...

I worked many years for a general contracting firm that specialized in public works so although we weren't a union shop, we paid a prevailing (or Davis-Bacon on federal contracts) wage based on local union scale. We hired a lot of laborers and were an equal opportunity employer which meant we didn't care about your race or ethnicity but you had to be willing to work your ass off (on time and under budget). Ours is an area with a sizeable pool of both black and Hispanic (mostly Mexican) workers, but invariably the vast majority of applicants were white. Our Mexican employees were terrific workers and usually stayed on the job till completion. The few blacks we hired from time to time never made it to the end. They either quit because the work was too hard or were let go because they didn't perform. I draw no particular conclusions from this; it's just my anecdotal evidence.

Anglelyne said...

Hagar to SDaly: "You are merely restating the decades-long claim that Hispanics are "natural conservatives" who will eventually turn en masse to Republican policies. Do you pay any attention at all to the economic policies of Mexico, Central and South America?

Not gonna happen."

So SDaly, why are all these people fleeing those countries and heading for the U.S.?


By your lights I guess Somalis are "natural conservatives" then.

SDaly is correct in pointing out that there is no evidence, by any metric, that Hispanics in general are the "conservatives" of Republican wishful thinking. The data just don't support MLL's assertions.

Anglelyne said...

JAORE: The short version?

Blacks got set asides for minorities and AA for hiring put into the law. And we did it for US, the African Americans. We need to stop allowing these laws to benefit women and Hispanics.

I have no idea what made these guys think I would be receptive to such a message


AA and set-asides are bullshit, but I have a hard time getting worked up about American blacks making a stink about other minorities (and women) riding the gravy train. Set-asides and AA were, after all, originally put in place to redress historical wrongs against American blacks. Whatever the merit of that idea (and I don't think it has much merit), it's ludicrous that people who came to this country voluntarily, and their descendants, can latch onto those benefits merely by virtue of not being white. So blacks want to cut other "civil rights" racketeers out of the action? Hey, gotta start the clean-up somewhere.

FullMoon said...

SukieTawdry said... [hush]​[hide comment]

I worked many years for a general contracting firm that specialized in public works so although we weren't a union shop, we paid a prevailing (or Davis-Bacon on federal contracts) wage based on local union scale. We hired a lot of laborers and were an equal opportunity employer which meant we didn't care about your race or ethnicity but you had to be willing to work your ass off (on time and under budget). Ours is an area with a sizeable pool of both black and Hispanic (mostly Mexican) workers, but invariably the vast majority of applicants were white. Our Mexican employees were terrific workers and usually stayed on the job till completion. The few blacks we hired from time to time never made it to the end. They either quit because the work was too hard or were let go because they didn't perform. I draw no particular conclusions from this; it's just my anecdotal evidence.

Yep, and when you see a few million anecdotes like this, makes a person come to a conclusion.

SukieTawdry said...

@SDaly: MLL -

You are merely restating the decades-long claim that Hispanics are "natural conservatives" who will eventually turn en masse to Republican policies. Do you pay any attention at all to the economic policies of Mexico, Central and South America?

Not gonna happen.


Hispanics may be big on work and family, but they're also big on big government and favor a large, centralized government that provides a lot of benefits. The way the Republican party is going, they may indeed become "natural Republicans" but they most certainly are not "natural conservatives." Also, the out-of-wedlock birth rate among Latinas is over 50 percent. They claim that's not a problem because the whole family steps in to help raise the child. However, they still avail themselves of the various social welfare programs available to single mothers. For the time being, at least, they will remain a Democratic constituency vying with the other Democratic constituencies for an ever-increasing share of the spoils.

We also hear a great deal about how so many of the "undocumented" become entrepreneurs. Some do, of course, and can be quite successful. But more typical is the small-scale operator who hires his fellow Hispanics on a part-time basis so the employees can stay on the public assistance rolls.

Some claim that if the US becomes a Hispanic-majority country, we will no longer recognize it. If places like Los Angeles and California's central valley are any indication, they're quite likely right.

SukieTawdry said...

@Jupiter: How about letting people hire whoever they like, based on whatever criteria they like? How about the fat-ass government sticks to doing the few things it does least poorly? How about Legalize Freedom?

Why, what a novel idea. Maybe some day in a place they'll call "The Land of the Free."

Mike said...

"hiring for Christmas" is as obscene and evil as it sounds.

I don't understand that, Coupe.

Many retailers enjoy a surge of business of 100% or 200% or more during the holidays, when more than half their business is done. So they should what, provide poor service during the busy season or employ unnecessary people the rest of the year? Your're emperor. What's the call?

(Full disclosure: I've been on both sides of this equation, both temp worker and temp employer, including a multi-year stint as a long-term substitute teacher.)

SukieTawdry said...

@John: 5) Lots of people like working for temp agencies. They like the flexibility, they like working in different places and jobs. They don't like having to be going round to companies applying for jobs.

There were a couple of periods in my life that I worked as a temp. I loved it! I loved being in control of the assignments I would accept, complete or leave. I loved exploring different industries. I loved meeting new people and being in new circumstances all the time. I loved having the flexibility to continue my education. I was good and in great demand and I always, always, was offered a permanent position. If I could have made the kind of money I could command as a regular, full-time employee, I would have stayed a temp all my life.

Michael K said...

So legalizing them doesn't solve the alleged problem of needing these people to do the jobs Americans won't do. If your state economy depends on illegal labor, it's going to go right on depending on fresh new supplies of illegal labor after you've amnestied the current lot.

I know and said "a percentage" because there are many still barely literate, I reviewed workers comp claims for a few years, This was in California and about half were Hispanics and about half of them were illegal. They would claim a "second grade education" in Mexico and many were illiterate in Spanish. A guy I knew was an investigator for SCIF, the state workers comp carrier. He told me that many injuries were because employers, especially in roofing, ignored safety standards.

The illegals were abused and taken advantage of and low skill illegals should probably go home. My criteria for legalizing them would require literacy and a history of jobs and paying taxes. Once the border is secure, the flood of illegals coming from other, often more primitive cultures even than Mexico, will stop.

Michael K said...

If I could have made the kind of money I could command as a regular, full-time employee, I would have stayed a temp all my life.

I knew nurses that liked being registry or travelers. They usually had no family and tended to be younger.

mockturtle said...

I knew nurses that liked being registry or travelers. They usually had no family and tended to be younger.

I did that for a while during winters here in Arizona. Not younger but my kids were grown. Nursing was a second career for me, another four years at UW, but a more portable career than my research chemistry job so when my [older] husband retired I was free to flee to Arizona and work down here while he golfed in the winter months. They hire a LOT of seasonals here and the pay is great, housing paid for along with transportation here and back.

Martin said...

Ah, yes, another example of illegal immigrants doing the jobs that Americans won't--except when Americans like Mr. James WOULD do them if they weren't being under-bid by illegals who the employers know cannot complain.

The idea of a whole economy grinding to a halt if its supply of illegal labor is cut off is roughly as risible as the pre-Civil War South's attitude about the necessity of slavery fro growing cotton. In a reasonably flexible labor market, wages will adjust to clear the market. Some prices will rise, some quantities produced will fall as costs go up, but it's all on the margin. The people who really get hurt are owners who no longer get rents (uneconomic profits) from exploiting below-market rate labor, and the illegals, themselves, who have to settle for less attractive situations in their home countries.

The right balance of immigrants is something reasonable people can argue about, and that's a discussion we should have after we have 'secured the border." But doom-mongering on either side has no place.

n.n said...

Class diversity promoted by public agencies and civil rights businesses.

Martin said...

And, btb, this is a great issue for Trump, as it shows how legal US citizens and residents, esp. those of moderate and low skills, are hurt by illegal immigration. In an economically rational world, African-Americans and many legal Hispanics would be among the strongest for controlling the borders; they are the ones who suffer from illegals, while business owners and upper-income people who employ nannies and gardeners, benefit from paying substandard wages for those services. Illegal immigration as policy is one of the most elitist things going, if you are in the US legally.

mockturtle said...

Agricultural workers are far from being unskilled. The work is often highly specialized and time-sensitive. I have high respect for those who do it but do want them to be here legally. Trust me, no one but Mexicans are going to do some of these jobs! Maybe 50 or 60 years ago....

HT said...

Trust me, no one but Mexicans are going to do some of these jobs! Maybe 50 or 60 years ago....

Well, not quite. 23% are US-born. At some point, the "Americans don't want these jobs" does become self-fulfilling. There are many reasons.
https://www.doleta.gov/agworker/report9/chapter1.cfm

FullMoon said...

cognito said... [hush]​[hide comment]

Ever hired someone to work manual or lightly-skilled labor for short term?

I have.

Mexicans. All day long. Blacks will come back and rob you.

Pretty stupid comment, gonna depend on the person
Anecdote,
Was on a remodel job, fire and water damage, no electricity.
One other guy and me.
Other contractor black guy , never met him before.
After fourteen or so hours, much of it by flashlight in the dark, I said"No matter what, I am gonna keep working until five minutes after you leave".
He says, "Man, I been thinkin' the same damn thing, let's call it a tie and get the fuck outa here".
That was when Kerry was running for prez.
Still friends with the black guy.


SukieTawdry said...

@Michael K: I knew nurses that liked being registry or travelers. They usually had no family and tended to be younger.

My sister is an RN (not younger, but her children are grown) and did the traveler thing for a while so she could experience life in different parts of the country. But she kept getting offered permanent positions and finally got an offer here in California she couldn't refuse (California RNs make a bundle and have a relatively easy life compared to a lot of places).

Michael K said...

"no one but Mexicans are going to do some of these jobs! Maybe 50 or 60 years ago...."

50 or 60 years ago we had the Bracero Program, which filled the role and allowed Mexican citizens to come and work in the harvest season and return to their families in Mexico.

During a 1963 debate over extension, the House of Representatives rejected an extension of the program. However the Senate approved an extension that required U.S. workers to receive the same non-wage benefits as braceros. The House responded with a final one-year extension of the program without the non-wage benefits, and the bracero program saw its demise in 1964..

The AFL-CIO killed it off once Johnson was president.

That when the illegal alien problem began.

HT said...

That when the illegal alien problem began.

I am not sure it is so cut and dried. For starters, it seems the braceros program started as an informal arrangement in light of a shortage of workers during WWII and previous occasions.

And, “Guest worker programs tend to increase legal and illegal immigration for two major reasons: distortion and dependence. Distortion refers to the fact that economies and labor markets are flexible: They adjust to the presence or absence of foreign workers. If foreign workers are readily available, employers can plant apple and orange trees in remote areas and assume that migrant workers will be available when needed for harvesting. Dependence refers to the fact that individuals, families, and communities abroad need earnings from foreign jobs to sustain themselves, so that a policy decision to stop guest worker recruitment can increase legal and illegal immigration.

“Guest workers everywhere are associated with distortion and dependence that lead to larger and longer-lasting labor imports than were anticipated. Whether in U.S. agriculture in the 1940s and 1950s, in Western Europe in the 1960s and 1970s, or the Middle East and Asia since the 1970s, importing foreign workers to cope with "temporary" labor shortages inevitably distorts the economy and increases the dependence of some employers on foreign workers, while some workers, families, and regions come to rely on jobs and wages abroad.

"Most guest worker programs begin with employers in the immigration country requesting foreign workers. Before governments agree to open the border gates to foreign workers, they should consider the alternatives to foreign workers. That consideration might begin with the fact that labor shortages reflect a demand for labor that exceeds the supply of labor. In a market economy, demand-supply imbalances are brought into balance by changing prices and wages, i.e., labor shortages are eliminated by raising wages, which increases the supply of labor and reduces the demand for labor.”

http://cis.org/TemporaryWorkers-Overstays

Michael K said...

“Guest workers everywhere are associated with distortion and dependence that lead to larger and longer-lasting labor imports than were anticipated.

Caesar Chavez, before he died, bitterly resented the illegal immigrants that destroyed his union.

In fact, Cesar Chavez believed ferociously in the border of the United States — because that border protected his union. So ferociously did he hold this view that the New York Times ran a story detailing an accusation that the union Chavez founded, the United Farm Workers, set up a 100 mile “wet line” to keep “wetbacks” and “illegals” — yes, all of those are Chavez’s words — out of the United States.

mockturtle said...

I passed leaflets and boycotted Safeway for Chavez back in the day.

There are plenty of Hispanic Americans who want borders enforced.

HT said...

Apparently Cesar Chavez was one of them.

Gahrie said...

Apparently Cesar Chavez was one of them.

This. Chavez worked for Hispanic Americans, not Mexicans. His movement was later hi-jacked.

The Hispanic kids in my classroom freak out when they find out. Almost as bad as the kids freak out when they read Lincoln's speeches from the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

Gahrie said...

50 or 60 years ago we had the Bracero Program, which filled the role and allowed Mexican citizens to come and work in the harvest season and return to their families in Mexico.

there was a time when the Mexican government used to demand that the US round up all the Mexican illegal aliens and send them back to Mexico. There were whole villages where all the men were up north. That ended when the women and children started moving north, and the dollars started moving south.