November 21, 2016

"You know, listen, I'm old fashioned about my entertainment. I just like to go to be entertained. If I want politics I'll go to a town hall meeting."

"I'll turn on cable news. There's lots of outlets you can go to get politics even the issues and ideas that you disagree with. A play for the vice president-elect of the United States who was there with his family to get booed tells you how far gone civility is in America.... This is the vice president-elect of the United States. They should want him to be successful. They should want his family to feel welcome in anywhere they go in the United States like everybody should want to feel welcomed anywhere in the United States. And it starts with a small thing like not booing the vice president-elect of the United States and not having a cast come out and lecture somebody who probably paid 800 bucks to be there.... I hope they give him his money back."

Said former House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers on "State of the Union" yesterday.

I didn't think Pence should have been singled out and lectured to from the stage when the audience — which had booed him earlier — seemed so hostile. His physical safety was in issue, and that introduced an element of intimidation and bullying that the people behind the show probably didn't intend but should have been more sensitive about. The people in the audience who booed were creepy and cowardly — in their safe space and (probably) believing themselves to be the good people.

But Mike Rogers sounds like a fool talking about the theater as a place that owes you politics-free entertainment — where you pay your money and they owe you a pleasant, happy, relaxing time. Whose theory of theater is that? Rogers calls himself "old fashioned" as if he's relying on a traditional view of the role of theater in human culture, but where the hell did he get that?

Even shows aimed at children raise unsettling matters that question and challenge the audience about things that can be political. I'm not going to go down the rathole of the politics of "The Lion King." And you can, on your own time, read this New Yorker article, "The Politics of 'Annie.'" ("[Annie] wanders into a Hooverville—a shantytown whose jobless denizens (proto-Occupiers?) sing a sarcastic ode to the outgoing President....")

But "Hamilton" is a musical that is on its face about politics. How in hell could it be a night of lightweight, relaxing amusement? That wouldn't be good. You have to be lying or a fool to assert that you paid for tickets to "Hamilton" and felt entitled to a politics-free experience.

And Rogers slotted in an appeal to "civility." You know what I always say: Appeals to civility are always bullshit. Rogers himself is doing politics, and if the politics cut the other way he'd be praising free speech and parsing the language of the from-the-stage lecture for respectful intelligence. 

(For what it's worth: Mike Rogers was kicked off the Trump transition team last week.)

265 comments:

1 – 200 of 265   Newer›   Newest»
CJinPA said...

I'm the only person who is civil and it's a heavy burden.

Humperdink said...

Mike Rogers is no fool. He may be wrong, but he is no fool.

exhelodrvr1 said...

He is obviously referring to political activity/messaging that is not a part of the actual entertainment itself.

MayBee said...

Let the play and all the people there together, sharing an experience, speak for itself.

I agree that we don't need to turn every venue into a chance for the performers to issue their personal manifesto. The people who booed, the performers who singled out Pence, Kolin Kaeperninck kneeling at the national anthem... it just adds a little layer of dread to what should be an entertaining experience.

JRoberts said...

"His physical safety was in issue, and that introduced an element of intimidation and bullying that the people behind the show probably didn't intend but should have been more sensitive about."

I had to chuckle when I read that. We've learned from experience that the very group that is always expecting - and often demanding - sensitivity, is rarely willing to extend it to others.

Fen's Law strikes again.

MayBee said...

I'm fine with people booing Pence when he came in, btw. It was jeering him during the songs that was stupid.

I don't really think we want to continue down this road. It's exhausting. America needs shared experiences, not more hectoring.

sunsong said...

"...This bloated, overweight man, who insulted and demeaned a former beauty queen because he thought she had gained too much weight — and never apologized; this man, descended from immigrants, who attacked a federal judge because he had descended from immigrants — and never apologized; this man, who avoided military service like the plague, yet attacked the parents of a soldier who died fighting for us — and never apologized; this man, who called Mexican immigrants generally rapists and criminals — and never apologized; this man, who bilked students out of thousands of dollars, and just agreed to pay them $25 million dollars so they would stop suing him — but who never apologized; this man, who made billions while paying no federal taxes — and never apologized; this man, who insulted and demeaned nearly every person who ran against him during the recent election season — and never apologized; this man, who baselessly and recklessly and in total disregard of the facts waged a scurrilous campaign for eight years claiming President Obama was not an American, and therefore was an illegal president — and never apologized; this man, who told more lies per minute than any presidential candidate ever, who lied the way most people breathe — and never apologized... This man wants citizens who respectfully expressed their concerns to the Vice President Elect to apologize?!

"You first, Baby Donald..."



Grow Up, Baby Donald

Gahrie said...

Fucking Progressives ruin everything.......I can't even watch the NFL or ESPN anymore without having to endure the smug superior attitudes and platitudes from the Left.......

MayBee said...

Sunsong- I agree with you that citizens shouldn't have to apologize to the President or President elect for criticizing him or disrespecting him.

320Busdriver said...

"Our cast could barely go onstage the day after the election. The election was painful and crushing to all of us here"

Said the drama queens in the bubble.

Professional lady said...

It irritates me when a performer injects his or her personal political opinion into a performance. Yes "Hamilton" is about politics. Well and good. But what makes this or that actor think I want to hear his or her personal opinion which may or may not piss me off? I'm interested in the production - in the play itself. Injecting your own political opinion before the play starts is distracting and irritating. It's like the person sitting next to you in the theatre who won't keep quiet during the movie or play. I want to concentrate on the performance and don't need to be sidetracked by someone's need to grandstand. If you feel the need to publically express your opinion, write a letter to the editor or post something on Facebook or on a blog.

MikeDC said...

Talk about point missing. Of course plays and other forms of entertainment have political content, but that's fundamentally different than the cast interrupting the event to engage in political speech.

Todd said...

I didn't think Pence should have been singled out and lectured to from the stage when the audience — which had booed him earlier — seemed so hostile. His physical safety was in issue, and that introduced an element of intimidation and bullying that the people behind the show probably didn't intend but should have been more sensitive about. The people in the audience who booed were creepy and cowardly — in their safe space and (probably) believing themselves to be the good people.

Sorry but facts not in evidence. I think you give the cast and the audience too much credit. They didn't think beyond what they could do to make themselves feel better at that moment. Attacking the VP elect and his family while they are out for an evening's entertainment is "speaking truth to power" don't you know?

But Mike Rogers sounds like a fool talking about the theater as a place that owes you politics-free entertainment — where you pay your money and they owe you a pleasant, happy, relaxing time. Whose theory of theater is that? Rogers calls himself "old fashioned" as if he's relying on a traditional view of the role of theater in human culture, but where the hell did he get that?

Really? You feel this way? If I pay my money to see a show I expect to see that show. NOT be lectured at by the "hired help". They were paid to do their jobs. Nothing more and nothing less. They overstepped and should be called out for it. The "show" as written did not include a lecture to the VP elect. Does not matter what the subject matter of the "show" was. That was what was expected. The lecture was an add-on. Don't you see the difference?

But "Hamilton" is a musical that is on its face about politics. How in hell could it be a night of lightweight, relaxing amusement? That wouldn't be good. You have to be lying or a fool to assert that you paid for tickets to "Hamilton" and felt entitled to a politics-free experience.

They paid for the politics IN the musical, not the leftie hate fest that was included "for free". Again, how can you not see that? That would be the equivalent of going to see a play of Hairspray and getting a free lecture on the evils of organic foods and the evils of anti-vacers.

And Rogers slotted in an appeal to "civility." You know what I always say: Appeals to civility are always bullshit. Rogers himself is doing politics, and if the politics cut the other way he'd be praising free speech and parsing the language of the from-the-stage lecture for respectful intelligence.

Really? Again you see no scenario where someone would call out this behavior regardless of the politics involved just because it is in bad taste and rude? Sorry but my parents raised me better. That sort of behavior is NEVER appropriate. I guess I am old fashioned too.

Ficta said...

You know who's impressed me most in this whole kerfuffle: Steve Van Zandt What a stand up guy.

rhhardin said...

It's a civil rights issue. They refused to serve him.

Michael said...

Politics in the show is one thing - if you didn't want to see MacBird you didn't have to. Gratuitous lectures at the curtain call is another. Trump is classier than these guys.

Ann Althouse said...

"It irritates me when a performer injects his or her personal political opinion into a performance."

The performance was over. It was during the curtain call.

mockturtle said...

Gahrie says Fucking Progressives ruin everything.......I can't even watch the NFL or ESPN anymore without having to endure the smug superior attitudes and platitudes from the Left.......

Yes, the play was political. But for the cast to single out a member of the audience for a sanctimonious lecture was wrong and stupid.

Like Gahrie, I quit watching ESPN. The flaying of Curt Schilling was one toke over the line for me.

rhhardin said...

Spinning to his face is something other than politics.

Politics is lies you tell about him, not to him.

rhhardin said...

Face to face is another register.

Unknown said...

The same group that expects and demands civility and respect gave none to President Obama and his VP. LOL, "safe spaces", Drumpf now using the SJW terminology to demand respect for his VP. Ohhhh boy isn't that rich? Why didn't the old fashioned notion of respecting The Office of the Presidency be employed by the right for our current President? How respectful of the President was Drumpf? How respectful was it to demand to see his birth certificate, to imply he wasn't a legitimate president? How respectful was it to demand to see President Obama's university transcripts? Where are Drumpfs tax returns? How about his college transcripts, how about a legitimate health report?

The very same people who demand civility and acceptance for Drumpf and his VP gave absolutely none to President Obama. Tables have turned and they don't like it. Too bad and it's just begun.

Larry J said...

Ann Althouse said...
"It irritates me when a performer injects his or her personal political opinion into a performance."

The performance was over. It was during the curtain call.


There's a big difference between having a show about politics and singling out an audience member to harangue them about politics. It was a classless move on the casts' part. The audience paid their money and came to be entertained. It's just as classless as so-called celebrities interrupting their performance to spout off about politics when that isn't part of the show. Laura Ingraham wrote a book on this topic ten years ago. Just "Shut Up and Sing" if that's what the audience paid you to do.

Nonapod said...

Upon re-reading the transcript I agree that Rogers seems to frame things in a way that seems to indicate that he expects entertaining things to be apolitical. That, of course, is absurd.

While I definitely concur with the sentiment that the left has been freaking out way too much lately and generally taking things too far, I think people on both sides are being a bit oversensitive. The right has been on the losing side of the culture war for most of the past decade, and now finally has the upper hand. But in any war you have to be careful not undermine yourself by overcommitting your forces.

Unknown said...

Also, for a Congressman to yell out "You lie!" In the middle of a SOTU address is the height of disrespect. For a cast member to address a future VP is small potatoes. All you righties should quit whining. It's going to be a very long four years for you folks. Save the outrage because the disrespect is going to continue and only get worse.

Unknown said...

Is Hamilton about politics or is it about history?

JHapp said...

Very low odds anyone in the cast watched Trump's acceptance speech.

eric said...

Here is the good coming out of this.

This isn't your grandpa's Republican party anymore. Now you have trolls going to the performances and heckling them. I hope this increases. And the audience continues to interject more heckling and increasing the pleasure of the show for the audience by interrupting it by inserting more politics, which is what everyone is there for, according to Althouse.

I hope it gets to the point that they can't even put the show on anymore. That would be the ultimate politicians injected. And theyd deserve it.

Unknown said...

Everywhere Drumpf or Pence appear in a public setting they will be booed. Get used to it. The politics of division is what they ran on, now they're getting it back in spades. It's only just begun.

Brando said...

When's the last time anyone "respected" a president they opposed? I don't recall much respect for Obama from the right, or Bush from the left. Who is surprised Trump isn't getting it now?

It's the modern presidency. Trump or Pence goes to a liberal venue, they're going to get hostility. Same as if President Hillary went to a conservative venue.

Sure, it'd be nice if more people were polite, but that hasn't been the case for a long time. The end result is politicians sticking close to their protective bubbles.

tcrosse said...

2016 is the Year of the Tu Quoque argument.

Mike said...

sunsong:
"...This bloated, overweight man, who insulted and demeaned a former beauty queen because he thought she had gained too much weight..."


Here comes sunsong, engaged in more myth-spreading fake newsery. The Latina was a CURRENT beauty queen (and it may come as a surprise to sunsong that almost all beauty pageant contestants are judged primarily on their looks. It's true. Look it up!) who was being pressured by the organization to lose weight and stay within the parameters she agreed to contractually, and Trump was the one who defended her. Later, after benefiting from the support of the CEO she turned on him and said some mean things. As we know, Trump meets people where they are and he said mean things back.

CNN wrote the same things about her, calling her fat in public repeatedly. Does sunsong hold cnn accountable for their hateful demeaning? No. Of course not. Sunsong has selective outrage and an affinity for fake news. CNN good. Trump bad. But of course she insults his appearance at the same time she is "criticizing" Trump for the same behavior. Thus leftism eats itself alive.

320Busdriver said...

Just "Shut Up and Sing" if that's what the audience paid you to do.


"Kanye West is 90 minutes late for show, performs three songs then delivers bizarre rants before walking off to boos
Controversial concert follows producer-turned-rapper's declaration of support for Donald Trump in previous tour stop"

Todd said...

Imagine going to a live showing of "The Vagina Monologues" and being treated to a free lecture about the evils of abortion. It is an inherently political event, right? So you have no problem with the cast pulling that sort of "ambush" on a specific member of the audience, say someone from Planned Parenthood?

mccullough said...

Pence didn't make a deal out of this. And Trump was just trolling the safe space trigger warning crowd. He is a great comedian. He has transformed public criticism but his detractors are still looking for what was where it used to be.

Mike said...

Also, for a Congressman to yell out "You lie!" In the middle of a SOTU address is the height of disrespect.

Turns out Obamacare was the Lie of the Decade. Thank God one congresscritter had the balls to say so. Leftists NEVER show respect for the opposition. That's a stupid myth.

"For Obama to lecture the SCOTUS at the SOTU was the height of disrespect."

There. FIFY.

Professional lady said...

Ok - so it was before in Hamilton - but it would have left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm still not interested in this or that's actor's gratuitous opinion. Also, often, such comments are before the performance.

Unknown said...

Oh please. Trump was dead serious when he said the theater should be a "safe space".

Mike said...

Oh please. Trump was dead serious when he said the theater should be a "safe space".

Or he's trolling you idiots with the phrase of the day. We all know the theatre was not a safe space for some presidents.

Rick said...

Unknown said...
The very same people who demand civility and acceptance for Drumpf and his VP gave absolutely none to President Obama.


Obama was never treated this way. Once again we see the left's assertions have literally no connection with reality. They say whatever makes the point they wish was true regardless of facts.

This is the danger of living in a bubble. There's no one around to tell you the fantasies you're engaging in didn't actually happen.

Unknown said...

I certainly hope someone yells out something at Trump's first SOTU, if he gets that far. Democrats are far too classy to do something
Ike that to the President at a SOTU though. Someone should yell "Trailtor!" In reference to his possible collusion with Putin to interfere in our Country's politics and government.

Basil said...

Are you bring intentionally obtuse? The problem was not the content of the play, it was the behavior of the people at and in the play.

Unknown said...

How amusing, the amnesia sets in regarding the disrespect and blatant hatred shown to President Obama and the First Lady. Don't worry Drumpf and Melanoma will be seeing the same sort of disrespect and hatred. Sad that it's come to this, isn't it? You people reveled in it, rolled in it, now you'll be immersed in it yourselves. I'm enjoying it already.

Fernandinande said...

Hamilton wasn't big on open borders:

"The safety of a republic depends essentially on the energy of a common National sentiment; on a uniformity of principles and habits; on the exemption of the citizens from foreign bias, and prejudice; and on that love of country which will almost invariably be found to be closely connected with birth, education and family.

The opinion advanced in the Notes on Virginia2 is undoubtedly correct, that foreigners will generally be apt to bring with them attachments to the persons they have left behind; to the country of their nativity, and to its particular customs and manners. They will also entertain opinions on government congenial with those under which they have lived, or if they should be led hither from a preference to ours, how extremely unlikely is it that they will bring with them that temperate love of liberty, so essential to real republicanism? There may as to particular individuals, and at particular times, be occasional exceptions to these remarks, yet such is the general rule. The influx of foreigners must, therefore, tend to produce a heterogeneous compound; to change and corrupt the national spirit; to complicate and confound public opinion; to introduce foreign propensities. In the composition of society, the harmony of the ingredients is all important, and whatever tends to a discordant intermixture must have an injurious tendency."

Mike said...

Unknown said...
I certainly hope someone yells out something at Trump's first SOTU, if he gets that far. Democrats are far too classy to do something
Ike that to the President at a SOTU though. Someone should yell "Trailtor!" In reference to his possible collusion with Putin to interfere in our Country's politics and government.


So the president that spent a year retailing the lies "...keep your plan" and "...keep your doctor" to all of us ad nauseum on TV every night. That is the same, to idiot unknown, as a rumor that Putin was "collaborating"* with the Trump team somehow. Nevermind the REAL collaboration we saw between the DNC-MSM-HRC to skew the primaries and election in Her favor. Nevermind all THAT. Unknown heard a roooooomur!

Get a clue asshat!

Look up "ted kennedy 1980 russia" to see what real collaboration with an enemy to skew an election looks like. Your side is full of traitors.

My name goes here. said...

Also, for a Congressman to yell out "You lie!" In the middle of a SOTU address is the height of disrespect.

I believe the person that yelled out apologized. Am I wrong?

Also, in America we get to boo our politicians. Nobody is complaining about private citizens booing their next Vice President. Obama, and Bush, and Clinton all got boos when they went to places as well. The rub is that you do not go to the theater to get a political lecture by the actors.

There were a thousand ways they could have made that better. They could have invited Pence and his family on stage and asked for a selfie and asked him questions. They could have invited him backstage. They could have sent him their note without the public lecture. But none of those things would let them virtue signal has hard as playing the bully.

Todd said...

Brando said...
When's the last time anyone "respected" a president they opposed? I don't recall much respect for Obama from the right, or Bush from the left. Who is surprised Trump isn't getting it now?

11/21/16, 10:10 AM


You are correct. I remember when Obama held pressers and got shoes thrown at him, more than once. Oh wait, that was Bush.

Well I remember when Obama had out sized puppets burned in effigy in protest to his actions. Wait, that was Bush too.

How about all of those assassination porn stories and films that were created, we can agree that those were over the line but... those were about Bush too.

Well some folks wrote some mean things about Obama and published them on their blogs! Others also dared to point out illegal stuff he and his administration had done. So I guess you are right, it is all the same.

mccullough said...

All presidents have been hated and mocked. Quit whining.

Sebastian said...

"how far gone civility is in America" Only in leftist precincts and at Trump rallies.

Calling for civility is not always bullshit, if civility includes trying to get leftists to STFU occasionally.

Unknown said...

The disrespect shown to President Obama at the SOTU will be repeated in many ways and at many venues. It's only just begun. It's going to be very fun seeing the outrage and butthurt on the right and then rubbing your noses in it every single time. You own Drumpf and everything he stands for.

JAORE said...

" Sad that it's come to this, isn't it? "

Yes, Unknown, I know just how sad you are.

We all do.

LOL.

mccullough said...

George Washington never gave an address on the state of the union. Just write a letter. The SOTU is an infomercial

Unknown said...

Well, truth be told, I'm not at all sad that Drumpf and his VP are being shown disrespect. It's Karma, honey.

Fernandinande said...

CJinPA said...
I'm the only person who is civil and it's a heavy burden.


Civility is one advantage of being made from old vacuum cleaner parts.

mockturtle said...

These guys haven't even been inaugurated yet.

MikeR said...

"Well, truth be told, I'm not at all sad that Drumpf and his VP are being shown disrespect. It's Karma, honey." As it is karma that the Hamilton production was disrupted last night by a Trump supporter, reportedly bringing the cast of the play to tears. Probably it didn't occur to them that they had skin in the game.

Rick said...

Unknown said...
I certainly hope someone yells out something at Trump's first SOTU, if he gets that far. Democrats are far too classy to do something


That was in response to Obama lying while lecturing the people in the audience. This would be like Pence responding to the Hamilton actor and then people criticizing Pence for being rude. No doubt the nuts on the left would do this but any thinking person would reject such nonsense.

Unknown said...

Let the Drumpf supporters be disruptive! Free speech for one and all! We on the left love seeing the true nature of Drumpf supporters, the deplorables.

Unknown said...

"These guys haven't even been inaugurated yet."

Don't despair, the fun has just begun.

mccullough said...

Is Drumpf supposed to be some kind of smear? German Americans are the largest ethnic group in the US, followed by African Americans and then Irish Americans. Why play into Trump's hands so easily?

William said...

It's theoretically possible that there were other Trump voters in the audience besides Pence. They won't go any more, but, on that particular night, they might have been in attendance. They paid a lot of money and deserved a more hospitable environment.......The play itself apparently makes a point about diversity. Why not just let the play make that point and forgo the post performance lectures.......On the other hand, I would prefer to hear Kanye lecture or do just about anything other than sing. However, I'm not a rap fan, and his audience is entitled to feel put out.........Is there any valid evidence to suppose that the political opinions of rap stars and Broadway performers have more wisdom and awareness than that of the public at large?

CJinPA said...

My first reaction was: Pence had to know this would happen. The whole production of this show, from the moment the first "No white actors need apply" was posted has been a big middle finger to the people who voted for Trump-Pence.

They weren't going to pass up the chance to emote in front of Satan's VP. The odds of that night NOT ending the way it did were quite small.

eric said...

Blogger MikeR said...
"Well, truth be told, I'm not at all sad that Drumpf and his VP are being shown disrespect. It's Karma, honey." As it is karma that the Hamilton production was disrupted last night by a Trump supporter, reportedly bringing the cast of the play to tears. Probably it didn't occur to them that they had skin in the game.


There are plans for more of this. A lot more of this.

It's makes me giddy. I hope the show ends up shutting down.

mockturtle said...

It's makes me giddy. I hope the show ends up shutting down.

And we will all know who started it. These buttercups seem to have forgotten two important precepts:
1. Never bite the hand that feeds you.
2. Don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Dr Weevil said...

Is it true that "for a Congressman to yell out 'You lie!' In the middle of a SOTU address is the height of disrespect"? Seems to me it depends on whether the president is in fact telling a lie in his SOTU. If he was (and I think he was) he's a Hell of a lot more disrespectful to the entire nation than the one who calls him on it is to him or the nation.

As for the claim that the right gave no civility and respect ("none") to Obama and Biden, I'm wondering: how many plays, operas, musicals, movies, and concerts did Obama and Biden go to in the last almost-eight years? And how many of them included booing from other members of the audience? I'm thinking the numbers are "dozens, if not hundreds" and "zero" respectively. I have heard that Obama was booed at a sports event or two, but that's different: you can enjoy a sports event even when it's interrupted by boos (it usually is), but it's very difficult to enjoy a play or musical or whatever if assholes in the audience are booing another audience member. So, fill us in, Unknown. Explain to us how Pence was treated no worse than Obama than Biden have been treated. And don't compare apples and oranges when you do.

Ficta said...

"Drumpf", "Nobama", etc. Use childish nicknames (or in the case of "Drumpf" as an insult, actual, honest to God ethnic slurs) and I stop paying attention to you.

EMD said...

"He is obviously referring to political activity/messaging that is not a part of the actual entertainment itself."

I think this blog needs a "Dense Althouse" tag.

Dr Weevil said...

And what kind of loser thinks 'Drumpf' is an effective insult? Any middle-schooler could tell you that 'T. Rump' would be far ruder: it's butt-inclusive and also alludes to his tiny T. Rex hands.

Of course, actually calling Trump 'T. Rump' would be childish and assholistic, but at least it wouldn't be stoopid.

EMD said...

"Is it true that "for a Congressman to yell out 'You lie!' In the middle of a SOTU address is the height of disrespect"? Seems to me it depends on whether the president is in fact telling a lie in his SOTU. If he was (and I think he was) he's a Hell of a lot more disrespectful to the entire nation than the one who calls him on it is to him or the nation."

I'd love to import some question time into our houses of congress.

n.n said...

"Drumpf" is a German shepherd whistle... a dog whistle, used with the intention of deflecting association of the German National Socialists with left-wing ideology including Pro-Choice/[class] diversity, Pro-Choice/"=", Pro-Choice/abortion, etc.

Brando said...

"Well some folks wrote some mean things about Obama and published them on their blogs! Others also dared to point out illegal stuff he and his administration had done. So I guess you are right, it is all the same."

Are you really suggesting Obama's opponents were much more polite to him than Bush's were to Bush? Both were compared to Hitler, both were subject to (hopefully unserious) assassination talk, both had their legitimacy challenged (Bush by his Florida win, Obama by his "questionable" birth, which continues to this day by some of the more reality-challenged critics even on this blog). The shoe throw was the closest that came to a physical attack, but if I recall that was a press conference in Iraq. And for everyone like you who thinks it was "far worse" what Bush went through with his critics, there's a leftist who thinks it's "totally different" how much worse Obama's critics have been to him.

JAORE said...

"Sad that it's come to this, isn't it? "

......

"Well, truth be told, I'm not at all sad that Drumpf and his VP are being shown disrespect."

Atta boy/girl Unknown. The healing may have begun when you admit that many of your statements are hot air for effect.

damikesc said...

But Mike Rogers sounds like a fool talking about the theater as a place that owes you politics-free entertainment — where you pay your money and they owe you a pleasant, happy, relaxing time. Whose theory of theater is that?

Sorry, but I actually agree with Rogers. When you go to a play, concert, whatever --- you're not going there to hear the opinions of the performers. You're there for a performance. If Hamilton THE PLAY is political, fine. You're going for that.

You are not going to hear an added monologue written by the creator directed at you. It's a dick move. And Pence should have been offered a refund.

I don't really think we want to continue down this road. It's exhausting. America needs shared experiences, not more hectoring.

Indeed. I seldom discuss politics away from here because politics isn't my life and I don't have a need for an argument all of the time.

This bloated, overweight man, who insulted and demeaned a former beauty queen because he thought she had gained too much weight — and never apologized

She gained 60 pounds after winning. He COULD have simply turfed her. He didn't. And the media was far harsher than Trump was.

descended from immigrants, who attacked a federal judge because he had descended from immigrants

So the author is dishonest. Good. Don't need to go further with sunsong's bullshit copy and paste.

"Our cast could barely go onstage the day after the election. The election was painful and crushing to all of us here"

One would have mistakenly thought they were professionals.

Simple: Do you want a country where everybody hates everybody different? Then keep doing this. Otherwise, give us the option to have shared experiences here and there. Otherwise, another 9/11-style attack on NYC will just lead to laughter and applause, not horror. And you'll wonder WHY.

The performance was over. It was during the curtain call.

Don't see how that is preferable. They ask him to come back --- so they can dump on him. His mistake was in humoring them.

The same group that expects and demands civility and respect gave none to President Obama and his VP

Which play was stopped to bitch at him?
What riots occurred when he was elected?

Also, for a Congressman to yell out "You lie!" In the middle of a SOTU address is the height of disrespect.

Joe Wilson, MY rep, was telling the truth. And when a guest enters and tells lies about the host, calling them out on it is needed. The SCOTUS couldn't do so when Obama lied about them.

Save the outrage because the disrespect is going to continue and only get worse.

We have the guns. And, fortunately, you assholes are only fucking up where you live. Enjoy not getting bailed out when your shit implodes.

When's the last time anyone "respected" a president they opposed? I don't recall much respect for Obama from the right, or Bush from the left. Who is surprised Trump isn't getting it now?

When we he called out personally during a performance he attended? I cannot think of a single occasion.

I certainly hope someone yells out something at Trump's first SOTU, if he gets that far.

Let them. He'll call them out and point out the amazing job they've done fucking up shit so badly that he is now President.

Don't worry Drumpf and Melanoma

How does Melanoma even make sense?

At least Michelle looks like Chewbacca when I call her wookie.

As it is karma that the Hamilton production was disrupted last night by a Trump supporter, reportedly bringing the cast of the play to tears.

Did that happen?

Good.

That's karma, honey.

Is Drumpf supposed to be some kind of smear? German Americans are the largest ethnic group in the US, followed by African Americans and then Irish Americans. Why play into Trump's hands so easily?

Because the only think she can do is mimic the idiotic crap from late night comedians.

Todd said...

Brando said...

Are you really suggesting Obama's opponents were much more polite to him than Bush's were to Bush? Both were compared to Hitler, both were subject to (hopefully unserious) assassination talk, both had their legitimacy challenged (Bush by his Florida win, Obama by his "questionable" birth, which continues to this day by some of the more reality-challenged critics even on this blog). The shoe throw was the closest that came to a physical attack, but if I recall that was a press conference in Iraq. And for everyone like you who thinks it was "far worse" what Bush went through with his critics, there's a leftist who thinks it's "totally different" how much worse Obama's critics have been to him.

11/21/16, 11:19 AM


You are so right! My bad. The "society" has so totally treated Obama with the same level of contempt as it has treated Bush. I clearly recall all of the MSM attacking Obama's record. Can't forget how all of Hollywood and the entertainment industry never let an opportunity to criticize Obama pass. How everyone walked out of classes across the entire country when he got elected. I am also sure the the media will never let the "blame Obama" game end.

Oh, wait, again, that is all stuff that happened to Bush. "Society" just can't get enough of Obama.

Think what you will but the "record" shows that no "D" President gets any of the treatment an "R" President gets. That is another good thing about Trump getting elected. The press will rediscover their adversarial relationship with Government. All sorts of pundits will rediscover the limits to executive powers. Once again we will start to hear more realistic employment numbers and economic news. It will [of course] either still be Bush's fault and/or immediately Trumps fault, so at least there is that.

damikesc said...

Are you really suggesting Obama's opponents were much more polite to him than Bush's were to Bush? Both were compared to Hitler

Obama cared to Hitler regularly? Where? Was he also compared to a chimp regularly? I don't remember that, either.

both were subject to (hopefully unserious) assassination talk

What movie or book was made about killing Obama?

The shoe throw was the closest that came to a physical attack, but if I recall that was a press conference in Iraq.

It was wildly applauded in the Left at the time.

And for everyone like you who thinks it was "far worse" what Bush went through with his critics, there's a leftist who thinks it's "totally different" how much worse Obama's critics have been to him.

Yes, some Leftists are morons. Agreed.

Did the Right riot when Obama won office? No? Then this is dramatically different. The only plus is that they are tearing down Progressive areas, which is always good fun.

damikesc said...

All sorts of pundits will rediscover the limits to executive powers.

Senate Dems now think the filibuster is super important. I think it is, as well, but you cannot put the spilled milk back in the carton. I think it is even more important that states nominate their Senators, not voters, but same problem.

Brando said...

"When we he called out personally during a performance he attended? I cannot think of a single occasion."

The birther crap was unique to him too, and Bush never was called out for lying in an address to Congress. I don't expect much civility from either, but would expect more from Congress than some liberal theater crowd.

"You are so right! My bad. The "society" has so totally treated Obama with the same level of contempt as it has treated Bush. I clearly recall all of the MSM attacking Obama's record. Can't forget how all of Hollywood and the entertainment industry never let an opportunity to criticize Obama pass. How everyone walked out of classes across the entire country when he got elected. I am also sure the the media will never let the "blame Obama" game end."

Well now you're talking about two different crowds--of course the "society" you speak of was nicer to Obama--I'd say they adored him. But his opponents on the Right? I don't recall any politeness there. My expectations for CNN are absolutely the opposite of my expectations for Fox News.

It's clear we have two different countries here--different news and entertainment sources, perhaps even different sports entertainment. There's nothing really "nonpartisan" any more.

Brando said...

"Obama cared to Hitler regularly? Where? Was he also compared to a chimp regularly? I don't remember that, either."

I saw quite a bit of it at the Tea Party rallies in DC in '09 and '10. It's fringe stuff, of course, but let's not pretend it's not there.

The big difference so far is some leftists are getting violent, and I don't recall the Tea Party getting physical during those days. But that's to their detriment--that sort of crap turns more people off. They're likely to overplay their hand.

Oso Negro said...

So appeals to civility are always bullshit? You love the Civil Rights Act that terminated freedom of association and resulted in mandatory civility in a wide variety of societal venues. I do not think you would like it if Trump supporters started jeering at Hillary supporters and dressing them down publicly as a routine matter. Who, really, would that serve?

AJ Lynch said...

I think you have this Mike Rogers mixed up with an ex-Congress critter named Mike Rogers.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

These folks aren't threatening. It is the definition of civility BS to make a fuss about booing and reading a statement.

Let me know when Pence is in contact w/ folks like the TPers who were maxing out the lathered up scale while Ds, such as Lewis and Cleaver, walked around the capitol after the election of president blackenstein/usurper/took-whitey's-country.

Scientific Socialist said...

Our 16th President was assassinated by a pissed off actor.

wendybar said...

Such tolerance, from the party of Tolerance....I'm just sitting back eating my popcorn, watching the left fall apart!!!

Bill Peschel said...

Ann, from reading your excerpt and your replay, it appears that you're deliberately misrepresented Rogers' remarks.

He's not saying politics can't be used as a form of entertainment, only that he wouldn't deliberately go there for that purpose.

His complete statement is: "I'm old fashioned about my entertainment. I just like to go to be entertained. If I want politics I'll go to a town hall meeting. I'll turn on cable news. There's lots of outlets you can go to get politics even the issues and ideas that you disagree with."

That is not the same as "But Mike Rogers sounds like a fool talking about the theater as a place that owes you politics-free entertainment — where you pay your money and they owe you a pleasant, happy, relaxing time."

Do you see the difference? Or am I missing something?

I guess this bugs me because I agree with him. I'm a writer; I'm used to manipulating narrative to make my point. When you inject your political viewpoint into a work of fiction, I'm suspicious. I know what you're up to, author. You're holding something back to get me to believe in your cause. What are you not telling me?

Note that my definition of politics is more hard-edged than making me feel sympathetic for the downtrodden and dispossessed. "The Grapes of Wrath" is a good book in that respect, but that doesn't mean I'm going to become a socialist as a result of reading it.

wendybar said...

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...Let me know when Pence is in contact w/ folks like the TPers who were maxing out the lathered up scale while Ds, such as Lewis and Cleaver, walked around the capitol after the election of president blackenstein/usurper/took-whitey's-country.


Jesse Jackson Jr was filming the whole thing, while they gloated while walking through the Tea Party protest...why isn't this on tape?? No phone footage?? LIES to stir up their party...There WAS footage of a guy who was speaking to one of the men, and some spittal came out of his mouth...that happens to everyone..but he did not spit on them!! http://hotair.com/archives/2010/03/25/caught-on-film-congressman-spat-on-by-tea-partier-sort-of/

Larry J said...

Unknown said...
Everywhere Drumpf or Pence appear in a public setting they will be booed. Get used to it. The politics of division is what they ran on, now they're getting it back in spades. It's only just begun.


Your lack of self awareness is striking. Democrats have been playing the politics of division for decades. They've marginalized and demonized Caucasians (especially men)only to be surprised that those people can decide to vote as a block, too.

Daniel Jackson said...

The entire story is filled with irony. The play is about two guys who disagreed politically and one of the shot the other. One of the guys was the Vice President of the United States.

Growing up, in junior high school, I thought of this as an absolutely outrageous miscarriage of justice and Burr should have been drawn and quartered. Or, worse. I was thirteen at the time.

Clearly method acting is alive and well in New York on the Great White Way. The cast assassinated the future Vice President of the United States. They certainly displayed the same righteous indignation of a typical thirteen year old.

D.D. Driver said...

This was the worst thing that has every happened to a politician at a theater since that other thing!

I had no problem with Ben Carson using a prayer breakfast to address Obama. I have no problem with some silly actor giving a condescending speech to Pence. Are we really worried about two of the world's most powerful men getting their feelings hurt. It was rude, but its not much of a news story.

AJ Lynch said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eric Landgraf said...

Ann,
So its risk on GAME of Thrones v. 5.? Time for the Red Queen to make an appearance, eh baby? Everywhere and always POLITICS, 24/7/52/12/365. No safe spaces, buttercup. Beatrice Kiddoe a lonely and divided nation turns its broken heart to you?

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

"I had no problem with Ben Carson using a prayer breakfast to address Obama."

He had promised ahead of time (to Coburn) that he would not use the religious setting to take political shots.

He lied, so he could earn status points w/ the BHO hater crowd.

Anywho, I prefer Coburn for non-hackness.

LilyBart said...

damikesc said...

It amazes me that leftist seem to mistake rudeness for courage and activism.

The Vault Dweller said...

Just by saying Hamilton is about politics doesn't really give the cast carte blanche to saw whatever they want in the name of politics. Would it be appropriate for them to give a lecture about the politics of abortion, or the politics of say the oil pipeline in the Dakotas?

And the lecture wasn't even really specific about any issues. Just a broad statement of essentially we are worried you are some totalitarian fascist, assure us you are not a totalitarian fascist.

The theater certainly has a history of the political, but usually in the sense that a particular play is crafted about a particular issue. Hamilton is not about Donald Trump.

David said...

Plus he's late on the issue, which is already stale.

Brando said...

"So appeals to civility are always bullshit?"

I figure Ann just means that appeals to civility are always just asking the other side to be civil, which does seem to be true. It deserves more notice if a liberal is calling out other liberals asking them to be more civil in dealing with Trump, or vice versa. Instead, it's always the other side that is out of line, and needs to be more civil, and that sort of thing is BS.

I sort of don't mind the incivility so long as it's nonviolent--just fascination at seeing how far it can devolve. After making the case that this country just elected a fascist, I wonder what the left will have to say if an actual fascist ever did arise. "This time, it's for serious! Far worse than that Trump!"

traditionalguy said...

NYC relies on hospitality industry at which The Donald is an
Expert . So he gave the idiots good advice. an Alynsky Attack is he way to ruin your business.

n.n said...

Entertainment is relative. Its quality is in the eye of the beholder.

The issue is the uncivil, predatory behavior toward a captive audience.

Alex said...

Shut up and sing.

Gahrie said...

The birther crap was unique to him too,

Actually, the birther crap was first used against McCain, because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.

gadfly said...

Back in the day, the list of popular read novels for children included Samuel Clemons' (writing as Mark Twain) "Adventures of Tom Sawyer" and "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" which got down and dirty with its nefarious characters. Gosh we even read about "Nigger Jim," the runaway slave.

"The people whom Huck and Jim encounter on the Mississippi" -- Russell Baker wrote in the New York Times in 1982 -- "are drunkards, murderers, bullies, swindlers, lynchers, thieves, liars, frauds, child abusers, numskulls, hypocrites, windbags and traders in human flesh. All are white. The one man of honor in this phantasmagoria is 'Nigger Jim,' as Twain called him to emphasize the irony of a society in which the only true gentleman was held beneath contempt."

Despite this horrible, mind-twisting literature to which my generation was exposed, I certainly did grow up with eventual drunkards, liars, numskulls, hypocrites and windbags - but none of those really bad characters mentioned and yeah, my high school class was all white because that's the way it was in West Virginia back then.

Gahrie said...

Our 16th President was assassinated by a pissed off actor.

His election was the last time the Left got this hysterical also.

Anglelyne said...

AA: Even shows aimed at children raise unsettling matters that question and challenge the audience about things that can be political.[...]

But "Hamilton" is a musical that is on its face about politics. How in hell could it be a night of lightweight, relaxing amusement? That wouldn't be good. You have to be lying or a fool to assert that you paid for tickets to "Hamilton" and felt entitled to a politics-free experience.


As exhelovrdr1 pointed out above, "He is obviously referring to political activity/messaging that is not a part of the actual entertainment itself."

That aside, why yes, I do assume that just about everyone in the audience of Hamilton went there for "a night of lightweight, relaxing amusement". People don't go to Broadway musicals for an intellectually heavy and emotionally disturbing experience. And naught wrong with that. That its subject is "political" doesn't change that.

Perhaps I'm misinformed - is the content of the play really "challenging" to the sort of audiences who boo Mike Pence and applaud the inane political speechifying of actors? If a work is described as "challenging", that usually means that it will flatter the vanity and validate the world view of its actual intended audience. The only "audience" whose views are going to be disputed is that composed of the "rubes", the outsiders, who are unlikely to buy enough tickets to challenge the warm cosy viewpoint consensus shared by artist and playgoer. If it's a big hit, and the rubes show up in large numbers, it'll be entertaining (lightweight and relaxing) enough for them to not really pay any attention to the alleged "challenge".

LilyBart said...

This booing jacka**ery has got to stop! It's just childishness - a temper-tantrum because you're unhappy about something.

All you pro-booers, take a look at this:

Gold Star family of slain Calif. soldier booed on flight

Apparently, people were angry at the grieving family as they were allowed to get off the flight first so they could make a connecting to meet the casket of their recently deceased son.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gold-star-family-of-slain-calif-soldier-booed-on-flight/ar-AAkvERn?OCID=ansmsnnews11

My name goes here. said...

Actually the birther crap was first pulled on Eisenhower as he did not have a birth certificate. He as an adult, I believe when he ran for President, had to have one made, his older brother had to be a witness because he was there when Dwight was born (although I hope not in the same room).

jr565 said...

"BUt Mike Rogers sounds like a fool talking about the theater as a place that owes you politics-free entertainment"
Excerpt I'm not aware of too many times where a politician got a speech directed at them while they were sitting in the crowd enjoying a show by cast members. I can totally get people booing. That comes With the territory.
But since when do the entertainers themselves single out VP's to lecture?
I was once at a play where al sharpton was seen in the the crowd.
I dont recall any cast members saying "you sir need to answer for your handling of tawana Bradley affair. And the death of tanjel rosenbaum is on your head!" No, he wasn't acknowledged negatively in any way.

And it would shock me to my core if the cast members m, -after the show delivered him or anyone a lecture. So, the fact is, this sort of personal politicking at stage shows does seem a bit unprecedented.

Big Mike said...

FWIW I am inclined to judge Brandon Dixon by the content of his character instead of the color of his skin. And he comes up pretty short, about even with the sort of guys who pee in other folks' stairwells.

I can't recall who told me to do that -- judge people based on the content of their character -- must have been some honky racist.

robother said...

" Do you know Hamilton favored restrictions on immigration?"
"No, but if you hum a few bars, I'll pick it up."

cf said...

If i ended up in an elevator with the man that played Aaron Burr, I want to say --

Whatever you have done up to now is Just Fine, and how about you Take a breath and look again at the facts of this election:
I say America missed a huge bullet election day. America dismantled the corrupted machinery that is the Democratic Party of 2016, that has done nothing but take rights away from all of us for 8 years.
You wanted America to vote for a person who is proven to behave ABOVE THE LAW?! They call that a Banana Republic. You want to continue shredding our power and giving the World away to China in the South China Sea and Russia? What a terrible legacy to do to the World.
I beg you to look again at what your peers in BigBlueGovernment SerenePoliceState NPR media want you to believe. How about imagining it might be Dead Wrong, lies, part of the corruption, spewing Hate and Division in every place it can.
Look Again, talented One.
Those who voted for Donald Trump did not do it because of some big club called racism, hahahah.
We did it for Everyone, especially LGBT, women, negroes, mexicans, La abuelita que vende Tamales en frente de la tienda por hay en Brooklyn -- Ella es una Republicana naturalmente.
We did it for the World, America is an idea that lives and offers hope for freedom for the world.
>> ok it was a long elevator ride. Godspeed, mr, actor man <<

CWJ said...

"I saw quite a bit of [Obama compared to Hitler/chimps] at the Tea Party rallies in DC in '09 and '10. It's fringe stuff, of course, but let's not pretend it's not there."

Sounds like the sort of thing the MSM would eat up like candy and broadcast widely. Did they miss it? Anyone else remember this sort of thing?

jr565 said...

""It irritates me when a performer injects his or her personal political opinion into a performance."

The performance was over. It was during the curtain call.
So? The curtain call is still part of the show. Why would this distinction matter?

Larry J said...

CWJ said...
"I saw quite a bit of [Obama compared to Hitler/chimps] at the Tea Party rallies in DC in '09 and '10. It's fringe stuff, of course, but let's not pretend it's not there."

Sounds like the sort of thing the MSM would eat up like candy and broadcast widely. Did they miss it? Anyone else remember this sort of thing?


There were reports of Mobys trying to infiltrate the Tea Party rallies to taint everyone there but don't recall seeing any credible news accounts of this being a common thing.

Todd said...

CWJ said...

Sounds like the sort of thing the MSM would eat up like candy and broadcast widely. Did they miss it? Anyone else remember this sort of thing?

11/21/16, 1:06 PM


No I don't, huh? But I do remember this:

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/19/unreal-msnbc-edits-clip-of-man-with-gun-at-obama-rally-to-support-racism-narrative/

Virgil Hilts said...

Ann, I think this may be one of those 1-2% of the times that you are wrong. You are famous and recognizable and a lot of twits think you are a far right lunatic and traitor to your sex and position for not enthusiastically supporting HC; I could conceivably see the same thing happening to you and Meade while you attended some lefty-themed performance at the Union Theater.

LilyBart said...

"I saw quite a bit of [Obama compared to Hitler/chimps] at the Tea Party rallies in DC in '09 and '10. It's fringe stuff, of course, but let's not pretend it's not there."

Quit a bit? Really? I went to a few Tea Party 'rallies' here in Denver*. I never saw anything like this. However, the Denver Post reported that there were racist signs and chants. But there weren't - I KNOW because I was there. There were a lot of lies told about the Tea Party, I think.

(*They were held at the capital, just a couple of blocks from my office during lunch - so of course I had to go over and check it all out! I also went to check out the Occupy Denver groups a couple of years later. Good to check these things out instead of relying on the unreliable Denver Post!)

mockturtle said...

cf, good luck getting him to listen. These buttercups are all about lecturing, not listening.

Rick said...

"I saw quite a bit of [Obama compared to Hitler/chimps] at the Tea Party rallies in DC in '09 and '10. It's fringe stuff, of course, but let's not pretend it's not there."

It's very unlikely this happened at a Tea Party rally. Despite the left portraying them as crazed in reality they were mild and respectful. In fact the Tea Party was exactly what the left said they could support about Republicans if only they could jettison the hated socons.

As it turns out they lied.

viejo loco said...

Unknown and Sunsong - two nalgas on either side of the same ano.
BTW - Roger Watters constantly rants politics during his performances; Audiences will shout "STFU and play the music." You two douches have a problem with that?

Mountain Maven said...

Trolling your readers again, Ann

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

A TP lady in Denver owns a can of mace
Got pissed at my brother so she sprayed it in his face
Now what could make her think that way?
What could make her act that way?
She's just a right wing pigeon from outer space
Sent here to destroy the human race
She don't give a damn about you or me
She just buys guns and watches tv

damikesc said...

Bush never was called out for lying in an address to Congress.

Bush didn't lie.

He said "British intel believes Saddam was trying to get yellowcake from Chad (or whatever country it was)"

British intel did believe that. Stood by it at the time as well. That was his "lie".

It's clear we have two different countries here--different news and entertainment sources, perhaps even different sports entertainment. There's nothing really "nonpartisan" any more.

And it's a huge problem. It atomizes the population horribly to have zero shared cultural experiences. And it isn't the Right seeking to politicize everything.

Let me know when Pence is in contact w/ folks like the TPers who were maxing out the lathered up scale while Ds, such as Lewis and Cleaver, walked around the capitol after the election of president blackenstein/usurper/took-whitey's-country.

The Dems sought to troll the TP after Obamacare was voted in. They sought to generate a negative reaction. The whole march with Pelosi holding a huge gavel was designed to piss people off. They wanted to have a Tea Partier use a slur or spit on people.

...and they failed to generate that response.

So they made shit up.

"He spat on me".
"Some random dude called me a slur".

Now, no evidence existed of ANY of it. Tons of cameras and microphones and none caught any of it.

It deserves more notice if a liberal is calling out other liberals asking them to be more civil in dealing with Trump, or vice versa.

I've seen a few pieces doing that. Even posted a link to one going over why calling Trump "openly" racist is stupid given that he has no history of racism and spnds considerable time espousing how much he loves minorities.

Response? "TL;DR"

n.n said...

Invasion of private spaces, especially homes, and targeting captive audiences, is how the Occupy movement lost credibility with the general public. Well, that, and providing sanctuary to the establishment of government-driven monopolies and monopolistic practices (e.g. Obamacare) that purportedly motivated their movement.

Real American said...

Just because you have a right to say something doesn't mean you have to say it. The cast of Hamilton chose to single out Pence and lecture him from the stage about their political hangups. It was not polite and given the antagonistic and adversarial crowd, it was potentially a security problem, though thankfully no violence occurred. Pence took it in stride like the classy individual he is. Others have defended him, which is their right.

The issue is that the left injects their politics into all aspects of our lives. It is unavoidable and very narcissistic, as if we go to the theater or watch football to get their points if view. It is just more moral preening from these people and a big reason Trump won. Acts like this one only reinforce the decision to elect Trump.

America knows that the left doesn't like Trump. We don't care, so choose to STFU next time. We're not listening anyway.

Brando said...

"It's very unlikely this happened at a Tea Party rally. Despite the left portraying them as crazed in reality they were mild and respectful. In fact the Tea Party was exactly what the left said they could support about Republicans if only they could jettison the hated socons."

The couple I went to in DC had a few signs with Obama with the Hitler mustache and some "Obamacare = Gas chambers" signs--don't know if those were Tea members or just some rabble rousers (you can't control who comes to an open rally, it's not like they check ID on the way). But surely you're not suggesting none of the anti-Obama opposition ever used Nazi imagery or hyperbole?

"Bush didn't lie."

I don't think he lied either, but it's not the point whether he lied but whether he was interrupted in a televised address to Congress.

Point is, rudeness is the thing these days, and getting more so. Don't be surprised if there's booing at the SOTU. Hell, I'd be surprised if there wasn't.

"And it's a huge problem. It atomizes the population horribly to have zero shared cultural experiences."

Indeed. Everything is political now, even the NFL. And no one can even agree on the facts anymore (even among the Right we cannot agree on facts!). I expect at some point we're going to have the newspapers print up two unemployment rates--the rate according to the GOP and the rate according to the Dems. (We're sort of at that point already).

Brando said...

"America knows that the left doesn't like Trump. We don't care, so choose to STFU next time. We're not listening anyway."

They're not trying to talk to the whole country, only those who already agree with them. It's more about feeling good about each other than reaching anyone outside the bubble.

John Edwards was right--Two Americas!

Earnest Prole said...

Steven Van Zandt, whose lefty credentials go back more than thirty years,
makes a thoughtful case against uncivil stage behavior.

Yancey Ward said...

What the actors did at Hamilton is a near equivalent to inviting a guest to dinner and then lecturing him on anything at all, politics or not. That is why it was inappropriate. Indeed, it was even worse since Pence was paying for the dinner.

Alex said...

Yancey.. If you read about Lenin, you'll realize that anyone but a dear Bolshevik is not entitled to human treatment.

readering said...

Yeah, personally I think actors should only break the fourth wall to throw cell phones in use into the street, but I don't buy that a guy with secret service protection was unsafe during the speech. As for the boos, people have been watching too many sporting events on tv where politicians are routinely booed. Makes me uncomfortable but that's what people do. I think the president of Brazil was booed at the Olympics.

JaimeRoberto said...

"Both were compared to Hitler". The only Obama/Hitler comparisons I remember were posters created by supporters of Lyndon LaRouche, who is a nutjob and former Democratic candidate for President.

Christopher B said...

I don't think your interpretation of what Mike Rogers said is correct. He's not discussing the political content (if any) of a performance. He's specifically referencing the post-performance lecture Pence got from Brandon Victor Dixon who doubled down on the idiocy today by saying that he didn't have to apologize for engaging in 'conversation'. What he did was far from engaging in a conversation. It was a deliberate ambush of someone who was in no way capable of engaging in a dialog. He's free to say what he wants, and the rest of us are free to say that it was boorish and rude.

wildswan said...

If the left thinks it can boo at plays then the right can also - and will. Going to plays doesn't have to be entertainment - it can be a political statement. It has been like that in the past in other countries. And I feel sure the left intends to boo and otherwise disrupt a happy mood at Trump's inauguration. Of course, it will just showcase the Dems attitude toward the deplorables. They've been booing us in secret for eight years - now it's open. But they lost. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Todd said...

Christopher B said...
I don't think your interpretation of what Mike Rogers said is correct. He's not discussing the political content (if any) of a performance. He's specifically referencing the post-performance lecture Pence got from Brandon Victor Dixon who doubled down on the idiocy today by saying that he didn't have to apologize for engaging in 'conversation'. What he did was far from engaging in a conversation. It was a deliberate ambush of someone who was in no way capable of engaging in a dialog. He's free to say what he wants, and the rest of us are free to say that it was boorish and rude.

11/21/16, 3:01 PM


Funny how the left's idea of a debate always seems to be them lecturing a captive audience. The left can't handle an actual debate. They just want everyone to listen and shut-up. They just know they are right and so an actual debate (i.e. exchange of ideas and arguments augmented by facts) is unnecessary. It would only be boorish and rude if they were subjected to that. From their perspective (which is all that counts), they are enlightening you to double-plus-good-speak.

Rick said...

But surely you're not suggesting none of the anti-Obama opposition ever used Nazi imagery or hyperbole?

I'm suggesting the effort to mis-brand the Tea Party is continuing.

William said...

It's a little le known fact, but our VP elect has a fine baritone. At the next Broadway show he goes to, he should get on stage during intermission and sing a selection of showstoppers and Negro spirituals. Perhaps, if the show lags, he can stand up in the audience and sing a few of the catchier numbers from Rigoletto......If Broadway players can treat us to their political insights, why can't a politician like Pence entertain us with his vocal stylings.

richardsson said...

I recall from reading Thomas Fleming's book about the duel that Hamilton, being a gentleman going through the motions, aimed high to avoid shooting Burr, while Burr went for the kill. Had Hamilton survived, he and Jefferson could have agreed on one thing if little else: that Burr was a scoundrel. The actor in this musical must have gotten too much into his character.

Meanwhile, much as I loved history as a child, I got sick of dramatizations of it. I think it was one too many repeats of the movie with Raymond Massey playing Lincoln.

Unknown said...

Rogers is right. The NFL, NBA, NCAA, Target have injected politics into their products and it means I have checked out of those entertainment venues. 20+ season ticket holder of NFL/NBA teams.

Unknown said...

Commenters here keep insisting that the same thing happened to Obama (and Biden?) but do not provide any examples except one heckler (a congressman) at O's State of Union address.
The precedent of the audience booing repeatedly for Pence is quite disturbing. If they are that riled up then his safety is at issue. Mob rule? Can members of the Trump admin not go out in public?
As for the cast lecturing Pence, turn it around and see if you would find it ok: the cast lectured the audience about the sanctity of marriage or about free speech. There is an assumption here that all agree with the cast except Pence--might not some in the audience have been terrified at the booing and upset by the lecture? How about people start booing at the play every night. We have rules of decorum for a reason. We don't spit tobacco on the floor anymore. Our congressmen don't get in fistfights on the floor or challenge each other to duels. It is called civilization. Mob rule is the opposite.

Matt said...

Every conservative in America would cheer if a bunch of conservative actors lectured Barack Obama. Stop pretending like this is so outrageous.

Trumpit said...

If the cast burned Trump in effigy, then the Fire Marshall should have been called to protect the theatergoers. It reminds me of when Michael Jackson's hair caught fire during a Pepsi commercial he was making. His scalp was burned and he needed medical treatment as I recall. If the cast burned Pence in effigy, he'd be entitled to a full refund, or matinee tickets, in my opinion. No one should be so humiliated on Broadway.

Todd said...

Matt said... [hush]​[hide comment]
Every conservative in America would cheer if a bunch of conservative actors lectured Barack Obama. Stop pretending like this is so outrageous.

11/21/16, 3:42 PM


Sorry but NO. I for one would not. There is a time and a place. You don't do that. I don't care for the man, based on what I know of him and his actions but my opinion does not rate disrupting him and his family on an outing because of my "feelz". My parents raised me better. I can't be the only one.

David said...

Who cares what Mike Rogers thinks? He's late to this party with his comments, and was already asked to leave Trump's exclusive invitation only party (the transition team.) Rogers will probably get another invite to the inaugural ball or something but for now his comments are low status preening.

The Hamilton cast was rude but they are also good at staying in character. Celebrities and celebrity wannabes are going to spout, and to the extent they make a difference, it will usually be to make their side look bad. There are exceptions to that rule but this was not one of them.

The reaction of the left from Harry Reid on down has been petulant and self indulgent. (The President of my alma mater, Wesleyan, just declared the college a "sanctuary campus," seemingly after meeting with the board of directors who were in town.) So it goes.

The main risk is violence. I was worried that some crazy might try to kill Obama, but fortunately that has not happened. (We are unlikely to know about serious but stayed efforts, or all of them.) Now Trump is in the same danger, and given the intensity of feeling and tossing of gasoline by media and people like Harry Reid, the risk is probably higher.

There is some weapons grade hate out there. The Hamilton cast was impolite, but I really do not think Pence was in danger from that crowd.

damikesc said...

Matt, why assume hypotheticals trump reality?

Unknown said...

The outrage by the right is hilarious. What they did to Obama is what should be done to Trump. I recall placards picturing Obama as a native with a bone through his nose at many of those Tea Party rallies. And please do not attempt to say it was "plants" who were holding these signs. Many of the people attending those rallies were interviewed at one rally after another and the hatred and disrespect shown to Obama was in your face and real. The hypocrisy of expecting us to get behind Trump after what was done to Obama is insane. Trump and Pence will get the respect from the rest of us that was shown to Obama and Biden by the rabid right.

Michael K said...

It reminds me of when Michael Jackson's hair caught fire during a Pepsi commercial he was making.

He and Richard Pryor were working on the Ignited Negro College Fund at the time.

I see no evidence that the right or the Tea Party has any interest in these virtue signaling events.

The left is all about acting and feelings.

Michael K said...

Inga is going nuts right in front of our eyes.

"Trump and Pence will get the respect from the rest of us that was shown to Obama and Biden by the rabid right."

I expected nothing more. Fortunately, the left is afraid of guns.

Dan Hossley said...

Look, there are standards of behavior that everyone has a right to expect. When I go to the theater I turn my cell phone off. I wait for the intermission before I comment on the performances. Under no circumstances would I consider it acceptable to verbally engage with the actors during the performance. Any of these behaviors will get you escorted out of the theater, because it is unacceptable.

But this door swings both ways. It seems to me that the cast of Hamilton has set a new, low standard of acceptable behavior. I don't believe they will enjoy the feedback.

Matt said...

Todd, damikesc

Many conservatives fell in love with Trump when he became a bully and an 'alpha-male' [as they say on Breitbart]. Having someone in your corner who blasts the other side is a bit part of Trump's appeal. In a similar way if conservatives stand up and tell Obama to go to h*ll [or just lecture him nicely] I am pretty sure [secretly perhaps] you would be okay with it. Personally, I wish they had said it to Trump's face because while I dislike Pence's political views he seems like a nice guy. Beta-male?

YeeHaw! said...

There is a certain magic in the theater or opera that doesn't happen in movies, or even in other types of live performances such as comedy routines or rock concerts (although it does happen in classical concerts).

"Magic" may seem trite, but there really is no other word I know for it. You are welcome to suggest one.

It is a feeling that the performance space is a special area where audience and cast join together to create a special atmosphere.

It is threatened whenever a performer breaks the fourth wall -- which is why breaking the fourth wall is such a hit-and-miss thing. The performer must be skilled enough to preserve the magic while undercutting the foundation to some degree.

Political viewpoints and controversy WITHIN the play do not threaten this magic (Evita. Annie. Les Miserables). But stepping out of character in this way -- where the audience is forced to confront the actor as individual independent of his/her character shatters it. So do audience disruptions (including tweeting/texting/talking/other boorish behavior), although Audience participation does not.

I don't even like to meet the cast after the performance. Ruins the illusion and the magic.

While still interested in seeing Hamilton, I would not have enjoyed this performance at all, and would have felt ripped-off.

I feel quite strongly about this.

Peggy Coffey said...

When we saw Hamilton, we went with the expectation of being entertained, and we were. It was lovely. I refuse to see movies or plays that are going to shove the sjw, progressive bs down my throat. Shut up and sing.

buwaya said...

"I expect at some point we're going to have the newspapers print up two unemployment rates--the rate according to the GOP and the rate according to the Dems. (We're sort of at that point already)."

Yes, more or less. The Fed seems to be, internally, using the population-employment ratio a great deal these days, or that seems to be the case based on the intensity of publication of the tracking of that figure and the minutely specified variants of it. Check the St. Louis Fed site and you will find thousands (30,900 a few minutes ago) of hits on this.

That, the population-employment ratio, is THE conservative "unemployment rate". The "official" unemployment rate is commonly held to be of little value over the last decade (or perhaps since 2000) because it does not reflect the decline in the labor force participation rate. Previous changes (increases, over the long term) in the labor force participation rate were due to the increase in womens propensity to seek paid employment. Its very unlikely that any such social change is behind the recent decades decline in labor force participation across all genders, races and ages, rather than the simple lack of employment.

At various times both Bernanke and Yellen have rather sheepishly admitted that the official unemployment rate may not be presenting the full picture. This is putting it mildly.

I have tried, several times over the last 15 years or so, the exercise of trying to reconcile European unemployment rates vs the US. There are several papers available from others who have attempted this. This involves reconciling generally accepted simple statistics such as population-employment ratios and the labor force participation rate vs reported "official" unemployment, which tends to be rather complex and loaded with parochial definitions. The general consensus is that the Europeans are much more conservative in calculating official unemployment, always reporting higher unemployment vs given population conditions. If one were, for instance, to compare the US vs the UK today, using British definitions, it seems that the US unemployment rate would be closer to 10%.

The misleading nature of the US official unemployment rate has been a bipartisan theme. During the Bush administration some Democrats made some hay with it, as the labor force participation rate did fall then also, and the official rate "recovered" while the labor force participation rate was still depressed. What happened since 2008 however was enormously greater, and in this case, to date, Democrats have been playing defense. With a Trump administration I look forward to the parties again switching sides on this point.

Peter said...

It sounds like Orwell's two minute hate, except that the target is present during the hatefest.

It sounds like being singled out in a group self-criticism/re-education session.

It's at least a little like being singled out for Special Attention at the mandatory diversity training, but amped-up because they've found a public target to criticize and ridicule. Perhaps a little bit like Montag getting cornered by the mechanical hound on live TV in Fahrenheit 451.

It's really difficult to find anything redeeming here; one way or another, it just reeks of bullying of one individual by a secure yet unbearably smug mob.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

buw,

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/03/declining-labor-participation-rates/

Matt said...

"We, sir — we — are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights,” he said. “We truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us."

Explain to me how this is offensive?

Unknown said...

Maybe they should've just yelled "You suck!"

Jack Wayne said...

FWIW, this is about the 10th post that I thought was deliberately trolling the Althouse commenters. Is our hostess suffering burnout from the job and it's making her a little giddy?

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

BTW,

Weren't we told that NYers, like DJT, spoke in an aggressive, attacking sorta way, so non-NYers need to apply a filter when interpreting what the NYers say/do?

Sure, plenty of the audience would have been from out of town. But, don't short change the NYers on their deserved reputation and loudness/boldness. IOW, even a chunk of NYers in the audience could be quite vocal.

And, beyond political differences, both the residents and the visitors on Broadway are close enough to the T Tower to be pissed about the traffic disaster his security is creating. And, even more specifically, maybe Pence's own motorcade that night caused trouble for normal folks w/o Secret Service rights. Also, did the audience experience any security hassles because of the special guest? As if many NYers (and some non-locals) wouldn't be prickly from that.

Anywho, I guess, after a while, it's possible for folks to forget that everywhere is not Madison.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

And, it goes w/o saying that the cast members, as NYers, fit into my comment above.

buwaya said...

PB&J,

This is not a "Factcheck" but a simple lie. They are horrible, disgusting, and very, very stupid liars. I have seen this before and it is rather astounding in its blatant mendacity. Its as if the writers assume that the public is too stupid to check their assertions.

"but economists say most of the decline, which has been happening for more than a decade, is due to demographics, including the trend of baby boomers reaching retirement age and deciding to no longer work."

This absolutely does not reconcile with the age profile of the labor force participation rate and its changes since 2000. And it is so ridiculously easy to check this.

St. Louis Fed - using BLS data - Civilian Labor Force Participation, ages 25-54, NOT "Baby Boomers", not college students or any other such silly quibble.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNU01300060

mockturtle said...

Matt asks disingenuously: Explain to me how this is offensive?

If one has to explain to you why lecturing a man who has not yet been inaugurated as VP on what might happen during his future administration, then you are beyond all hope.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

buw,

"Bureau of Labor Statistics, November 2006: Every year after 2000, the rate declined gradually, from 66.8 percent in 2001 to 66.0 percent in 2004 and 2005. According to the BLS projections, the overall participation rate will continue its gradual decrease each decade and reach 60.4 percent in 2050."

"CBO, November 2014: Of the 3 percentage-point decline in participation between the end of 2007 and the end of 2013, CBO estimates, about 1½ percentage points was the result of long-term trends, about 1 percentage point arose from temporary weakness in employment prospects and wages, and about one-half of a percentage point was attributable to unusual aspects of the slow recovery."

"Fujita, Feb. 6, 2014: The increase in nonparticipation due to retirement has occurred only after around 2010, while nonparticipation due to disability has been steadily increasing over the past 13 years. Similarly, nonparticipation due to schooling has been steadily increasing and has been another major contributor to the secular decline in the participation rate since 2000.
The number of those who did not look for a job (thus being out of the labor force) even though they wanted a job increased significantly between the fourth quarter of 2007 and the end of 2011. This group of “discouraged workers” explains roughly 30 percent of the total decline (around 2 percentage points) in the participation rate over the same period. Between the first quarter of 2012 and the fourth quarter of 2013, the participation rate of this group has been roughly flat."

"The following graph from BLS shows the civilian labor force participation rate between 1948 and 2015. As the graph shows, the participation rate in February 2015 (62.8 percent) is the lowest since March 1978. But the rate was lower than that every month between 1948 and 1978."

Data is as data does.

buwaya said...

"Explain to me how this is offensive?"

Because it implies that the other side (America 2) are not "diverse America" (America 1) and their interests (America 2) should take second place to the fears of "diverse America" (America 1). The implication is that the supporters of Trump's America (America 2) are by nature evil and can be expected to treat America 1 badly and unfairly.

It is an insult directed to a vast number of people.

Unknown said...

It's not offensive at all. What is a bunch of pansies. All the tough talk, what a laugh. First time he gets booed in public, you'll see Trump melt, screaming like the wicked witch of the west and her flying monkeys will be besides themselves with outrage.

Hyphenated American said...

Republicans should peacefully "occupy" Hamilton and start screaming at the actors. This is what democracy looks like.

Hyphenated American said...

"We, sir — we — are the diverse America "

I bet there was not a single republican there. This is not "diversity", it's group-think.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

"First time he gets booed in public, you'll see Trump melt, screaming like the wicked witch of the west and her flying monkeys will be besides themselves with outrage."

Your underestimating the weight of his burden, Baldwin made fun of him on Saturday, too.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

You're

Hyphenated American said...

"Explain to me how this is offensive?"

What if the visitors jump on the stage and start lecturing the actors to stop being so stupid and read a book on economics. Would this be okay?

Hyphenated American said...

"What they did to Obama is what should be done to Trump. "

So, you agree that riots, destruction of property, looting done by liberal activists is too much?

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

Never mind Buttercup-POTUS, what's that you say about some buttercup on some campus?

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

The Buttercup Administration: Buttercup-POTUS and Buttercup-VPOTUS.

Unknown said...

They need safe spaces! There are those very scary baaaaaad liberals out there just laying in wait for an opportunity to booo him and his VP. Lectures optional.

buwaya said...

"Of the 3 percentage-point decline in participation between the end of 2007 and the end of 2013, CBO estimates, about 1½ percentage points was the result of long-term trends".

You can see for yourself that the trend in the age groups with the highest historical labor force participation (see the BLS chart) is decidedly down, and far more than by 1%. The CBO is extracting this from their asses. They are busy making excuses for a disaster.

Of the 3 percentage-point decline in participation between the end of 2007 and the end of 2013, CBO estimates, about 1½ percentage points was the result of long-term trends
And no baby boomers or phony disability or education arguments apply.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

It's only noteworthy if you screw NYers w/ security hassles and massive traffic delays and you don't get booed. And, it probably doesn't help if you're an anti-gay-equality warrior on Broadway NY NY.

Buttercup, you're not in Indiana anymore.

Just sayin.

buwaya said...

"First time he gets booed in public, you'll see Trump melt, screaming like the wicked witch of the west and her flying monkeys will be besides themselves with outrage."

Try this in any public venue in California vs the Powers That Be.

"There are those very scary baaaaaad liberals out there just laying in wait for an opportunity to booo him and his VP. "

How about the Gestapo work our new Senator from California has been up to?

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-kamala-harris-planned-parenthood-20160407-story.html

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

Buw,

BLS saw the data showing this inevitability in 2006, even w/o Blackenstein, and even w/o the Great Recession.

My link contains links back to the original documents. Maybe the Feds will fire the BLS and CBO, then you'll replace their lameness w/ your brilliance. Shoot an email to the transition team w/ your resume.

Ha.

buwaya said...

The same thing was happening in 2006 - look at the BLS data for yourself - the Labor Force participation fell significantly for prime working age from 2000-2002 and only weakly recovered, and as I noted before, this was used by the Democrats to beat on the Bush administration claims of reduced unemployment.

This was not due to "baby boomers" or any other reason than just a lack of employment. The Democrats had a fair cop.

It happened again, but far worse, after 2008. Again, this is not explainable by any trend other than continuing poor economic conditions, that have failed to recover or have recovered only extremely slowly.

buwaya said...

The CBO is a useless agency BTW.
The BLS is good for gathering data.
The data is used by people like the Fed, who are too smart to be taken in by the "unemployment rate".

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

buw,

The BLS link that flows from the link I posted explains the issue re the aging of the baby boomers re the increasing mean worker age and the tendency for boomers to work 55+, but eventually retire. I'm not going to paste massive text excerpts that precisely flesh this out here. If anyone cares to know reality they can flow the links.

OTOH, in these threads you can keep blustering that the BLS and CBO are failures compared to your own...whatever it is you think you possess.

Keep digging.

Leora said...

Matt, it's offensive the same way that crossing to the other side of the street when you see a black person is offensive - it contains the assumption that the person is inimical to you.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

Buw. could replace the CBO, the BLS, and the Federal Reserve.

Send your resume to DJT and Congress Rs so they know how you can correct all the dopes at these agencies.


galivantor said...

With all due respect - since I am mostly an admirer of your site - you are WAY, WAY off into Moron Land with this one.
You truly and inexplicably stupidly confuse the content of formal 'drama/entertainment" in a for-profit theatrical performance with the - AFTER CURTAIN - PERSONAL political harangue by a cast and it's producers. Much less to use such a space/occasion as a way to single out and attack one individual theatre 'guest'!
Some sad state of affairs when even the supposedly smart people do not get it - at all.
Not to mention - since you 'quoted' Rogers you should include the verbatim of this" quote" ON YOUR POST, not force people to go hunt to find it ..o if it even exists.

jr565 said...

Matt wrote:
"Every conservative in America would cheer if a bunch of conservative actors lectured Barack Obama. Stop pretending like this is so outrageous."

well now, yeah! Considering this is the new normal. Hillary and obama should now expect it if they dare go to a public event. But prior to this, I would have felt a lot less of any actor/performer who sees someone in the crowd who doesn't agree with them politically and calls them out over their flaws. even if that person was Hillary Clinton. God knows, if the cast members of Hamilton weren't such shills for her they could find plenty of things (even from a lefty perspective) to lecture her on.
Like her support for the Iraq war and all the wars she supports. The left has called bush the worlds biggest terrorist for pushing the Iraq war, but let's not forget that she supported the war. And helped push every military endeavor underObama as well. So if Hamilton actors wanted to lecture her about how they were worried she was going to drag us into more wars, they certainly could. BUT THEY DIDNT. It was nothing but coronation and celebration.

buwaya said...

"The BLS link that flows from the link I posted explains the issue re the aging of the baby boomers re the increasing mean worker age and the tendency for boomers to work 55+"

The BLS data I am showing is for ages 25-54, so is entirely unexplained by aging boomers.
Its even worse for 16-24, who have borne the brunt of the poor economy -

http://beta.bls.gov/dataViewer/view/timeseries/LNS11324887Q;jsessionid=8AE2C82279A5E550248D2483B54CBE05.tc_instance6

i.e., Fell from @ 66% in 2000, to @ 60% in 2007, to 55% today. Not boomers, no disability argument, just kids not getting a start in life, oh well. This is the disastrous reality that those lying explanations are meant to mask.

I used to run a betting pool (on another site) on whether the CBO would hit its year-ahead deficit forecasts back in 2001-2007. Their performance was terrible.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

buw,

As I wrote, I'm not going to paste massive excerpts here.

But, this is the BLS link that you seem to be too lazy to follow:

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2006/11/art3full.pdf

It explains the effect of aging boomers re accounting for the 25/54 v 55+ data.

SukieTawdry said...

I'm fine with people booing Pence when he came in, btw. It was jeering him during the songs that was stupid.

I'm not. I wouldn't boo even Hillary Clinton if she came to a play I was attending. They jeered him even during the show? Really? Don't people have manners anymore? Has boorish behavior become the norm??

The actor who delivered their little diatribe is inordinately pleased with himself. He says they had a conversation. Normally I don't consider an ambush and a one-sided lecture a conversation, but maybe that's just me.

My white, European ancestors first came to this country in 1652, so my people were around at our founding. I feel the black cast of Hamilton appropriates my culture and my history. It makes me feel uncomfortable and even unsafe. I'm triggered. I need a space where I can feel free to voice my objections without fear of censure or retribution.

SukieTawdry said...

Fred Astaire and Eleanor Powell are performing the greatest tap number ever recorded on film right now. She's with him every tap of the way.

Michael K said...

What is a bunch of pansies. All the tough talk, what a laugh. First time he gets booed in public, you'll see Trump melt, screaming like the wicked witch of the west and her flying monkeys will be besides themselves with outrage.

Inga, the idiot is outdoing the other trolls. Trump has been attacked on the stage at rallies. He came right back and finished his speech.

Unknown said...

"They jeered him even during the show? Really? Don't people have manners anymore? Has boorish behavior become the norm??"

When some boorish Congressman yelled "You lie!" at President Obama during the SOTU, I guess he forgot his manners too.

buwaya said...

PB&J -

From your doc - Page 29 -

Forecast of labor force participation of 25-54 age group in 2050 - 83.4%
Today, actual BLS labor force participation 25-54 Oct 2016 - 81.7%
Ha ha. So much for the analytic folks. Do not let them tell you where to put your bets.

Besides this the doc is entirely irrelevant, and citing it is entirely unresponsive.

I am discussing working age people and not aging-out boomers, and have only presented stats for working age population.

The labor force participation/total employment rate for working age people has been depressed since 2000, and terribly so since 2008, and has not come close to recovering.
The official unemployment rate is a sick joke.

Unknown said...

Trump is hailed from this stage and this audience.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/

"“Hail Trump, hail our people, hail victory!”

That’s how Richard B. Spencer saluted more than 200 attendees on Saturday, gathered at the Ronald Reagan Building in Washington, D.C., for the annual conference of the National Policy Institute, which describes itself as “an independent organization dedicated to the heritage, identity, and future of people of European descent in the United States, and around the world.”

Spencer has popularized the term “alt-right” to describe the movement he leads. Spencer has said his dream is “a new society, an ethno-state that would be a gathering point for all Europeans,” and has called for “peaceful ethnic cleansing.”"

buwaya said...

PB&J -

From your doc - Page 29 -

Forecast of labor force participation of 25-54 age group in 2050 - 83.4%
Today, actual BLS labor force participation 25-54 Oct 2016 - 81.7%
Ha ha. So much for the analytic folks. Do not let them tell you where to put your bets.

Besides this the doc is entirely irrelevant, and citing it is entirely unresponsive.

I am discussing working age people and not aging-out boomers, and have only presented stats for working age population.

The labor force participation/total employment rate for working age people has been depressed since 2000, and terribly so since 2008, and has not come close to recovering.
The official unemployment rate is a sick joke.

buwaya said...

PB&J -

From your doc - Page 29 -

Forecast of labor force participation of 25-54 age group in 2050 - 83.4%
Today, actual BLS labor force participation 25-54 Oct 2016 - 81.7%
Ha ha. So much for the analytic folks. Do not let them tell you where to put your bets.

Besides this the doc is entirely irrelevant, and citing it is entirely unresponsive.

I am discussing working age people and not aging-out boomers, and have only presented stats for working age population.

The labor force participation/total employment rate for working age people has been depressed since 2000, and terribly so since 2008, and has not come close to recovering.
The official unemployment rate is a sick joke.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

"Trump has been attacked on the stage at rallies."

Is that when he earned the Purple Heart?

I know it seems important for some of y'all to hype DJT's valor.

But, stealing valor is never a good idea. Next y'all will be agreeing w/ him when he said that F-ing around w/o getting an STD was his Vietnam.

Y'all must understand that DJT's buttercup twitter rants and getting out of military service because of richness are lame. Presumably, you can still be believe that he'll MAGA w/o needing to pretend that he's not a twitter buttercup draft dodger. It'd be a troubling sign if your belief in what DJT will do (MAGA) could only last if you denied what he has done (draft dodging) and is doing (on Twitter).

SukieTawdry said...

It's the modern presidency. Trump or Pence goes to a liberal venue, they're going to get hostility.

Broadway is a liberal venue now?

Gahrie said...

This Richard Spencer guy sounds a hell of a lot like Marcus Garvey, W.E.B DuBois, Louis Farrakhan, Rev. Wright, Huey Newton, and Malcolm X .....with one minor difference......

Gahrie said...

Broadway is a liberal venue now?

It's in New York isn't it?

Any day now De Blasio is going to suggest building a wall to keep the deplorables out.

Unknown said...

Alt Right founder asks if Jews are people.

Gahrie said...

But, stealing valor is never a good idea.

Tell that to John Kerry.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"Blogger Ficta said...
"Drumpf", "Nobama", etc. Use childish nicknames (or in the case of "Drumpf" as an insult, actual, honest to God ethnic slurs) and I stop paying attention to you.

11/21/16, 10:59 AM"

I thank the Lord every night Buckley was purged from politics for his calling Lowell Weicker a horse's ass.

Hell, Buckley even called for a Horse's Ass Commitee to generate possibilities Lowell wouldn't win it in a walk, which is what transpired if well served by my memory I recall.

dwick said...

And you know what I always say? Half of what Althouse always says is bullshit.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

Buw,

You sound like a loon.

Since you got to page 29, it seems like you read through at least some of that document which identifies the various historical and projected aspects of the changing participation rate for different age and demo groups. And, then you pull out that one line.

Anywho, I hope you can convince the Fed gov to fire all of the BLS, CBO and Fed folks, since it turns out they've been doing everything all wrong, but you have the correct answers!

Carry on.

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