October 27, 2016

This is what Democrats actually did in Wisconsin when Scott Walker took office as governor in 2011.

I'm reading a NYT article that's teased on the front page with the headline "Some Trump Voters Warn of Revolution if Clinton Wins" and the quote "People are going to march on the capitols. They’re going to do whatever needs to be done to get her out of office, because she does not belong there." From the text of the article:
[A] new emotion is taking hold among some Trump supporters as they grapple with reports predicting that he will lose the election: a dark fear about what will happen if their candidate is denied the White House. 
Dark? What makes fear dark?
Some worry that they will be forgotten, along with their concerns and frustrations. Others believe the nation may be headed for violent conflict.

Jared Halbrook, 25, of Green Bay, Wis., said that if Mr. Trump lost to Hillary Clinton, which he worried would happen through a stolen election, it could lead to “another Revolutionary War.” “People are going to march on the capitols,” said Mr. Halbrook, who works at a call center. “They’re going to do whatever needs to be done to get her out of office, because she does not belong there.
Oh! He's from Wisconsin. We know all about marching on the capitol here in Wisconsin.
“If push comes to shove,” he added, and Mrs. Clinton “has to go by any means necessary, it will be done.”
The article continues with another quote and it's somebody else from Wisconsin!
“It’s not what I’m going to do, but I’m scared that the country is going to go into a riot,” said Roger Pillath, 75, a retired teacher from Coleman, Wis. “I’ve never seen the country so divided, just black and white — there’s no compromise whatsoever. The Clinton campaign says together we are stronger, but there’s no together. The country has never been so divided. I’m looking at revolution right now.”
The country has never been so divided, but what about this state?

188 comments:

PB said...

The lesson of Wisconsin is that Democrats are really sore losers and will throw tantrums.

Clayton Hennesey said...

Do Democrats consider African-Americans a "dark" people?

MikeR said...

"The country has never been so divided." They seem to have forgotten the Civil War. It is a bad idea to make people feel that they are no longer part of the political process, that someone who has contempt for them will be making the rules from now on.

If you think this is like slavery, worth a civil war, carry on cutting them out and dissing them. Otherwise reconsider. But I have not gotten the slightest impression that America's "elite" are capable of doubting themselves in any way.

AprilApple said...

She is a criminal. The only reason she is running is because the corruption has infested the Obama DOJ, and the FBI. The Democrat Media Industrial Complex play their part, and boom - American's first un-inidcted felon.

Excuse the masses for having a massive gag reflex. It's only natural to want to purge the mob from the body politic.

Michael K said...

The lefties have been flogging this idea for several weeks. It's part of their theme that the violence at Trump rallies was all by Trump supporters. One guy on facebook was pushing this and when I posted a comment correcting a couple of his facts he posted to tell me to go away this was "his thread."

buwaya puti said...

Please excuse me if Im wrong - but werent the Wisconsin protests mainly government employees complaining about union issues concerning them?

Thats a limited base for actual revolution.

EDH said...

This is the NYT preparing the battle space to oppose the appointment of a special prosecutor if Hillary is elected to office.

Any Republican politician calling for such an appointment of course would be doing the bidding of these "dark" Trump forces in the "alt-right."

dreams said...

Its just another way for the media to delegitimize Trump, they want voters to believe that if they love our country they had better not vote for Trump.

dreams said...

I'd like to see the same question ask of Hillary voters, not going to happen because the media's agenda is to paint a dark picture of Trump and his voters.

rehajm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MadisonMan said...

I don't recall big protests when Walker was actually elected/sworn in -- it's not like Barrett even wanted the job, from what I recall about his body language, so it was no surprise he lost -- but rather when Act 10 was passed. (Or "rammed through" as my very Democratic friends will tell me).

Still, odd that the NYTimes doesn't mention it.

rehajm said...

Trump wins and the country becomes united since all the Hillary supporters seek asylum with Trudeau in Canada.

He's cute you know, ladies!

dreams said...

Why would that question even be ask if not to advance an agenda because we all know that in the real world if your preferred candidate doesn't get elected there isn't anything you can do about it except go on to work and continue to earn a living and live your life.

machine said...

“They’re going to do whatever needs to be done to get her out of office, because she does not belong there."

more sore loserism...Clinton wins, revolution/coup...Obama wins, sabotage the economy...any Democrat wins, withhold votes on Supreme Ct nominees until a goper is President...

traditionalguy said...

Maybe the bitter refusniks can hire the guys who do the crowd violence gig for Hillary. She won't be needing them for a while.

AprilApple said...

It's our civic duty to make the money grubbing criminal and her rapist husband uncomfortable. The Clintons made $250 million dollars selling influence. That sh*t must stop.
No whining. Reality.
The swamp needs draining.

cubanbob said...

EDH said...
This is the NYT preparing the battle space to oppose the appointment of a special prosecutor if Hillary is elected to office.

Any Republican politician calling for such an appointment of course would be doing the bidding of these "dark" Trump forces in the "alt-right."

Bingo!

If Hillary wins, it will most likely be within the margin of fraud and that will be a cloud over her and reason for demands for special prosecutors. She will skate for two years but in 2018 the Republicans will have a real opportunity to really pick up a number of seats in the Senate and they will be campaigning on the Democrat's corruption. The Democrats have finally got their Nixon (and with none of his virtues). Or if we are lucky Trumpy wins and the stable cleaning starts in January. I wonder how brazen Obama will be with his pardons on the way out the door. Will he pardon Hillary and himself?

cubanbob said...

machine said...
“They’re going to do whatever needs to be done to get her out of office, because she does not belong there."

more sore loserism...Clinton wins, revolution/coup...Obama wins, sabotage the economy...any Democrat wins, withhold votes on Supreme Ct nominees until a goper is President..."

Speaking of gropers, tell us you didn't vote for Bill Clinton and that you were in favor of his impeachment. Sore loserism, thats a Democrat-Al Gore specialty. Do tell us why you favor a rape enabler and criminal and traitor for president.

buwaya puti said...

Sabotage the economy?
How?

The effect of the Federal Government on the economy is almost entirely a matter for the regulatory agencies.
Certainly not run by the "sore losers".

I have heard this complaint often from such as Krugman with absolutely no analysis behind it.

buwaya puti said...

Picking up senators and such in 2018 is useless.
Congress is irrelevant.
Gridlock is irrelevant.
The bureaucracy are your real masters and they are invulnerable.

rehajm said...

I wondered that too buwaya

AprilApple said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike Sylwester said...

False equivalence !!!

Mike Albrecht said...

Call people deplorables, needy, or basement dwellers. That is the cure to bring us together, stronger together. That will work.

AprilApple said...

The hack DNC press have been using the word "dark" to describe Trump and his campaign ever since the RNC convention. The DNC-MSM hack press speak with one voice, and they use the same coordinated attacks, phrases and words.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

What makes fear dark?

I suspect they still use the one drop rule. One drop of conservative leaning is all it takes.

Brando said...

Don't we hear this every year--"if they lose, they're so unhinged they're going to take up arms!" Yet that literally only happened once in our history of presidential elections.

People will be pissed, there'll be noise, but mass violence? Not happening.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

dreams said...

...if your preferred candidate doesn't get elected there isn't anything you can do about it except go on to work and continue to earn a living and live your life.

Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed.

buwaya puti said...

From Freerepublic -
You can look it up I suppose.

Record number of Wisconsin concealed carry licenses, up 14% so far this year. I'd call that a sign of anxiety.

dreams said...

Its the Dems who never accept the election, I'd say this is media projection except its actually a media attempt to delegitimize Trump.

AprilApple said...

It's certainly appropriate to personally boycott any company that does business with the Corrupt Clinton Machine.

One example -
No Estee Lauder for me.

Jane the Actuary said...

I've exceeded my page view limits and can't read the original article, but the quotes are ambiguous. Are these Trump voters saying, "yea, if Trump loses, we'll know it was fraud and will march, protest, riot, etc.," or is this again the claim that the Democrats are making that "Trump supporters are so awful that they're the kind of people who will riot if they don't get their way"?

Rusty said...

buwaya puti said...
Sabotage the economy?
How?

The effect of the Federal Government on the economy is almost entirely a matter for the regulatory agencies.
Certainly not run by the "sore losers".

I have heard this complaint often from such as Krugman with absolutely no analysis behind it.

10/27/16, 7:52 AM

The regulating agencies are laws unto themselves. All that needs to be done is for them to enforce their regulations in such a way that they disrupt the economy. Either that or raise taxes. The proper economic role of government is to insure a level playing field. Not choose the winners and losers.

Bruce Hayden said...

For those of you who think that a Crooked Hillary Administration is going to be able to disarm all the armed deplorables: Total US Firearms: Not 300 Million, but 412-660 Million? The standard 300-350 million figures you see are apparently primarily self-referential, and are not based on primary sources. Apparently, the ATF has a computer system (Access 2000) introduced in 1999 that has recorded better than a quarter billion firearms, from a number of manufacturers and importers for their new firearms. Which makes the 300-350 million figure problematic.

AprilApple said...

Why would anyone be angry about "Bill Clinton, Inc." and how Hillary abused her position at State?

You know - the cool stuff Bernie railed against but is now supporting.

Unknown said...

Just beacause I haven't seen it called out anywhere in all this mess:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iMy0969BTw

People forget this classic was in many ways, a comedy.

GWash said...

Once again approaching the precipice of losing the folks on this blog are acting like chicken littles... relax... Mick has promised a Trump landslide and then we can round up all of the lefty criminals and deport them with the other undesirables and the US will be returned to a white Christian country, the way God and the founding racists i mean founders intended... then we can close the borders and turn the clocks back to about Jan 7, 1951... problems solved.

buwaya puti said...

GWash,
You all are screwed no matter what. Probably faster with Clinton, but screwed anyway. And its your own, personal fault GWash. You did it, with lots of help of course, but its on you.
Its a mighty achievement.

Owen said...

I recently read a good book about the Wars of the Rosese. The characters blur but the take-away message is simple: our system of government is not guaranteed. It is entirely possible to throw it away through intolerable corruption.

Most of us desperately desire a polity that is simply not intolerably corrupt. We have (and I believe will) put up with a gigantic ration of crap, because, faute de mieux, it does not force us to give up everything we have fought for.

What bothers me particularly about the current version of political debate is how the virtue-signalers have to make it a personal victory. It's not enough that they win on a principle, or even on votes (bought, stolen, whatever). They must bend the victim over and hear the cry of capitulation.

That is unnecessary and frankly poisonous.

We have forgotten how to play this game; or some think they are so powerful they can ignore the rules.

Humbly disagree.

chrisnavin.com said...

I guess they need pageviews pretty badly, from commenters who appear to enjoy intellectual diversity.

Skeptical Voter said...

There are a lot of bed wetters on the reporting staff of the NYT. They will wet the bed "by any means necessary" to ensure their favorite candidate plunks her pantsuited posterior in the chair behind the desk in the Oval Office.

GWash said...

Rather than blaming newspapers and news outlets (there are plenty of conservative outlets) and name calling one's opponents, i would look to the arguments the 'conservatives' are making to convince people that the conservative way is better... the country is more diverse than ever and the world in general is more global than ever but the arguments the conservatives make are ever more parochial/emotional/conspiratorial and less fact based.. not enough people are buying what the conservatives are selling.. not revolution worthy... it would be really revolutionary at this point to work together rather than retreating to our corners ...

Achilles said...

The left is going to be very sad when we start treating them like they have been treating us.

As soon as Texas starts filing the paper work states are going to run for the doors.

The left does not understand how geographically vulnerable they are.

Achilles said...

"it would be really revolutionary at this point to work together rather than retreating to our corners ..."

This is code for taking my money and giving it to people who vote for democrats.

viator said...

I'd be a little more worried about a Trump election the subsequent progressive left freak out. NYT channels leftist projection yet again.

Gusty Winds said...

Looking back on the 2011 recall effort and the left-wing freakout over Act 10, it really ended up being a good thing. After Walker handily survived the recall, his agenda was validated and more legitimate than if the Democrats had just left him alone.

And most of all it lead to and unhinged recall supporter slapping Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett on camera after he conceded.

That has to be my favorite moment in Wisconsin politics ever.

Unknown said...

Achiilies has visions of putting liberals in gulags or up against a wall to shoot. Weak minded individuals are affected thusly by Trump's words.

chrisnavin.com said...

Is diversity in itself a good?

If so, what are you personally willing to sacrifice for diversity?

Doesn't trade and technology make the world much more 'global,' and at what cost political stability and decent social/political trust and institutional competency?



buwaya puti said...

On the press - there is todays Cernovich piece thats on the mark.

The press is not the same thing left and right, and the online press is not the same as the legacy media. Actual reporting/content, initiating news is expensive. This is the more expensive, not replaceable part of legacy media. All else is cheap, simply commentary and theorizing. As Althouse often does, fuelling off news provided by the NYT and networks, if it isnt off performance and commentary.

Very few in the non-legacy media do their own on the spot reporting or generate news. Althouse did this of course, to great effect during the Madison disruptions. O'Keefe is one of the few, he does what the legacy ambush journalists and muckrakers used to do. Some others do an excellent job on war and foreign affairs, such as Totten and Michael Yon. Steven Vincent was killed doing this. But these are exceptional, occasional, and are massively outnumbered by those supplying content to the legacy MSM.

There is no money in this, even for the MSM, so they all rely on patrons and subsidies. This keeps the MSM as the gatekeepers of the news as they are maintained as a political asset.

Bruce Hayden said...

Not putting all liberals up against the wall, just the ones who will lie, cheat, steal, commit violence, or bully, to gain and maintain power. If a woman feels triggered by Trump signs and steals a bunch of then, then add her to the list. Ditto for the MSM Hillarybots who have concentrated on Trump's colorful language, ignoring her crimes. Who have fudged polls. And, Podesta, Mook, Creamer, Soros, Cheryl Mills, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, etc.

pst314 said...

PB "The lesson of Wisconsin is that Democrats are really sore losers and will throw tantrums."
They're sore winners, too.

Achilles said...

Blogger Unknown said...
"Achiilies has visions of putting liberals in gulags or up against a wall to shoot. Weak minded individuals are affected thusly by Trump's words."

The extent of Inga's critical thinking ability.

All we have to do is stop paying taxes and let the democrats find money to give you. Our country is built on a system that requires active participation and acceptance. This is something stupid progressives like you don't understand because you never contribute anything to our country. The contributors merely need to stop contributing to make things hard on people like you in your concentrated little cities.

buwaya puti said...

On cooperation -
This simply is not possible. There is a complete divergence of interests between TPTB and the majority of the people of the US, including most business and industrial interests that actually supply goods and services.
TPTB are completely devoted to integrating all economic activity with the bureaucracy, to centralizing and limiting competition, to suppressing innovation, and to the preservation of a ruling class that rests on exploiting financial and virtual assets entirely separate from anything in the real world.
Angelo Codevilla explains it all, and all the developments of the last decade justify him.

GWash said...

Mr Puti i would respectfully disagree with your assumptions about cooperation and 'all the developments of the last decade'... not being as bright as you and not knowing what TPTB is i can't really dialogue with you but to take an author and extrapolate the whole of a decade seems to be something an ideologue would do... find some smart person that espouses my point of view and point to him as an exemplar of what is right... i always enjoy reading your posts but i think your opinions are often colored by your past experiences in other places.. and as for achilles' idea of conservatives (i guess) just stop contributing, well you are grossly incorrect that you are the only portion of society that contributes...

AprilApple said...

Actually honey - It's corrupt Hillary who wants to punish her enemies. Ordinary hard working Amnericans who don't give generously to her corrupt family foundation for a favor - ARE here enemies.

Michael The Magnificent said...

Achiilies has visions of putting liberals in gulags or up against a wall to shoot.

Maybe (s)he does, but I'd be happy just to cut the leaches off from the government teat.

For how many generations have we made marriage and fathers unnecessary? For how many generations have we made jobs unnecessary, and thus made getting an education unnecessary? And how is this social experiment working out? This war on poverty is no such thing, it is in fact subsidizing a lifestyle of poverty, and has been for generations.

buwaya puti said...

TPTB - The Powers That Be.
The prophets of the current age actually are Aristotle, Spengler, Schumpeter and of course Hayek.
Codevilla simply fills in the blanks for the local situation.
Its also useful to look into, for instance, Milovan Djilas.
I have been in the US thirty years, all as an educated adult deep in genuine business and well read besides. We have raised children to adulthood here. I know you, I know what you were, and what you no longer are.

Rick said...

Unknown said...
Achiilies has visions of putting liberals in gulags or up against a wall to shoot. Weak minded individuals are affected thusly by Trump's words.


The visions of putting liberals in gulags are coming from the loony left. Apparently their minds aren't strong and their desire for victim status has overwhelmed reality. I wonder whose words drove them to it?

virgil xenophon said...

Bruce Hayden@ 10:26am

Are you SURE you're not my long lost blood brother?

Freder Frederson said...

The contributors merely need to stop contributing to make things hard on people like you in your concentrated little cities.

You do realize you have this exactly backwards? Tax dollars flow from the elite, urban states to the rural ones. It is flyover country that depends on the coastal elites to maintain their "self reliant" lifestyle.

Freder Frederson said...

If a woman feels triggered by Trump signs and steals a bunch of then, then add her to the list.

There are assholes on both sides that tear down and deface opponents' yard sign. I had my Kerry sign torn down twice in the 2004 election (and yes I am sure there were incidents where some assholes tore down Bush signs).

Writ Small said...

I don't know why I feel like defending Clinton a bit. When everyone is zigging, it makes me want to zag, I guess.

First, I've seen several "dark" comments on this very site about a kind of "revolutionary" response if Trump loses. My use of "dark" means these comments have a hidden or conspiratorial tone, since that adjective is confusing to some. I typically roll my eyes at them, but it's a bit of putting your head in the sand to pretend these sentiments are strictly a fantasy of the Left.

Second, Hillary never called all Trump supporters "deplorable" or all Bernie supporters "basement dwellers." Rather she said a small core set of each were. To me, this is an undeniably true statement along the lines of saying that a small minority of Muslims are fanatical terrorists. To pretend Hillary described all in this manner is aping the victim mongering of the Left. I've seen a number Leftists pretending Trump called all women "nasty" and sporting "nasty woman" shirts and such. If you think that redounds well upon these people, by all means continue to do the same with respect to deplorables.

Third, we have learned little about Hillary's corruption or secrecy we didn't already know when Schweizer published "Clinton Cash." Bill and Hillary have gotten rich by selling access and by supporting policies favorable to their donors. This is awful, disqualifying stuff. Unfortunately, Republicans chose to put up a candidate who was on the other end of similar corruption paying politicians and who engaged in lots of unethical stuff to make himself rich such as stiffing small contractors and selling deceptive get-rich schemes to poor people via Trump University. Clinton's corruption is more widespread and on a greater scale, but Trump's unethical actions often targeted the weak or the poorly educated. Clinton basically took cash from other rich people. I can't bring myself to vote for either of these characters, but to say that Clinton is especially disqualified overstates the case, although it would certainly be true if almost any other Republican were running.

buwaya said...

"You do realize you have this exactly backwards? Tax dollars flow from the elite, urban states to the rural ones. It is flyover country that depends on the coastal elites to maintain their "self reliant" lifestyle."

You have this precisely backwards Freder. It is a common misunderstanding, but it yields to a little consideration of, for instance, tax collection data.

The hinterlands are Americas vast market for goods and services, both consumer spending and business investment, the cash flow and profits of which flow into the cities that are the headquarters of the businesses who market to them, and the preferred dwellings of record (or their extended suburbs) for the owner class who are most heavily taxed.

Taxes are disproportionately collected from businesses and their owners, hence there is the appearance of the cities (well, some cities) funding the hinterlands. But the actual economic activity generating tax revenue is disassociated from where it is collected. This is actually getting worse as big business concentrates, small business declines, ownership is diverted to hands-off entities like hedge funds, and so much economic activity takes the form of financial dealings disassociated with any real economic activity. Etc.

For instance, San Francisco is largely a city of coupon-clippers, company headquarters and business services catering to them, besides being a bedroom community for rich people. A lot of money flows into San Francisco, but it itself doesn't generate much value (in spite of the web firms).

If, for instance, Texas were to secede all businesses working in Texas would have to report their in-country income and be taxed there, not in New York or San Francisco or Mountain View.

cubanbob said...

Achilles let's have an impromptu survey of Ann's readers who would be in favor of eliminating the withholding of income tax from payrolls and instead require everyone to send in their payments quarterly as was the case in the past. Perhaps our hostess can indulge us with a poll.

Unknown:Gulags are a Lefty innovation. Lot of projection on your part. You know you would if you could.

Terry said...

Althouse wrote "Dark? What makes fear dark?"
Exactly the question that the editor of the article should have asked! Every adjective and adverb needs to justified in a straight news story. You want to write a novel or a short story, live in a garret with a battered Underwood. And watch the cliches!

cubanbob said...

Freder thinks States pay taxes, how quaint.

buwaya said...

" but to say that Clinton is especially disqualified overstates the case,"

True, in a sense, that of Clinton not being uniquely corrupt. The real problem is that absolutely everyone in a senior position in the current government is completely compromised by the web of institutionalized corruption. I consider the Clintons as rather old-fashioned petty amateurs in this game. Their corruption is transparent.

As for damage - consider the difference in scale and the distinction between first order and second-third order damage. Clinton and co. pulled money out of what should have gone to wretches in Haiti; out of what minimum wage workers pay for gasoline, or interest, or medical services, or pretty much everything. Steal at a high enough level and absolutely everyone is your victim.

Terry said...

Writ Small wrote:
Second, Hillary never called all Trump supporters "deplorable" or all Bernie supporters "basement dwellers." Rather she said a small core set of each were.
This is a lie. what Hillary said was
"To just be grossly generalistic, you can put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.Right? Racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, you name it."
So, caught in one major lie, you can safely ignore whatever else "Writ Small" has written. Small.

FullMoon said...

cubanbob said... [hush]​[hide comment]

Achilles let's have an impromptu survey of Ann's readers who would be in favor of eliminating the withholding of income tax from payrolls and instead require everyone to send in their payments quarterly as was the case in the past.


Ask the average young person how much they paid in income tax. Many will say, "Nothing, I got money back".
If everyone paid quarterly, there might actually be something done to change the system.

Freder Frederson said...

Ask the average young person how much they paid in income tax. Many will say, "Nothing, I got money back".

you must know some extremely dumb young people.

virgil xenophon said...

buwaya puti/

All you have said here by way of explanation is all true and necessary, but it is not sufficient to explain our current predicament. One must realize that the left's ideology gives them the moral certitude that if need be, in order to build our utopian society, they are only too willing--indeed feel duty bound--to "march us all to virtue" at bayonet-point if need be. One need only look at the religious fervor with which the left attaches itself to the man-made climate change myth--perhaps the greatest scientific deception since Piltdown Man--and shoves regulatory straight-jacket schemes across the entire economy from top-down effecting terrible financial and economic results all for dubious, almost impossible to measure results.

Writ Small said...

The phrase "to be grossly generalistic" besides using a word that doesn't exist, means to greatly overstate the case. She was stating up front that "half" was a colloquial if exaggerated way to say "one part of the group" versus "the other part of the group." She later apologized and retracted the word "half" as people were deliberately taking her literally. Moreover, there are other examples of her making the exact same arguement to a private group where she didn't use the word "half." If you want to insist on thinking she literally meant 50.0%, go right ahead. It's a free country.

buwaya said...

"One must realize that the left's ideology gives them the moral certitude that if need be, in order to build our utopian society, they are only too willing--indeed feel duty bound--to "march us all to virtue" at bayonet-point if need be. "

Yes, thats the "left". But in all things - as one commenter here said just today - that all political systems have a set of insiders, in the inner ring, and a set of inhabitants of the outer ring. The ideologically committed "left" is the outer ring, they actually believe the foolishness. They would be irrelevant if they didn't serve the interests of the inner ring.

Global warming for instance - the outer ring is ideologically committed for a host of usually not very coherent reasons, and they are altruistic (other than emotional satisfaction), rarely have anything to gain. The inner ring however sees concrete value, for instance, in extracting revenues through exploiting regulation, enhancing monopolies, and having governments mandate what amounts to private taxation - "carbon credits", "carbon trading", etc. Its these people who take their cut of, for instance, the inevitable higher electric bills. Thats their motivation.

And so on and so forth. "Follow the money" is a really useful tool.

CWJ said...

Writ Small wrote -

"Second, Hillary never called all Trump supporters 'deplorable'..." Rather she said a small core ... were."

I was in the process of skipping over this comment when nonetheless I caught sight of the above. If you have to mischaracterize what was in fact "half" as "a small core" in order to make your point, then I suspect I didn't miss much.

Not knowing the specifics of the "basement dweller" reference, I cut it from above.

Brando said...

"Ask the average young person how much they paid in income tax. Many will say, "Nothing, I got money back".
If everyone paid quarterly, there might actually be something done to change the system."

They'd have to be dumb to not notice money was withheld with every paycheck and actually think the government was giving them free money. The reason for withholding is much simpler than that--much easier to enforce than to have to make sure tens of millions of people don't fail to send their checks on time. Much easier to use withholding and get employers in on collection.

If you want to make a difference, make it so people file taxes on November 1 of every year, so they go through the agony of figuring out their taxes (or having to pay someone to do it) just before election day. Then there might be some people willing to support tax simplification. Instead, tax day is about as far from election day as you can get.

dreams said...

Will the media accept a Trump victory? I don't think so.

Matthew Sablan said...

I don't think we *can* go back to not withholding taxes. I just don't think enough Americans have enough foresight/budgeting know-how to set aside the money they'd need to pay each quarter.

CWJ said...

"...'to be grossly generalistic' besides using a word that doesn't exist, means to greatly overstate the case."

Bullshit!

buwaya said...

Few young people pay much in Fed income tax and many do get a disproportionate amount back through EITC.

US income taxation is very "progressive". This is why its not a terribly popular cause at the moment.

Social Security and Medicare are something else but there is a justification for these as they are earmarked for something they at least theoretically concede is of value.

There are also a vast number of second and third order effects from taxation that are not obvious.

Terry said...

I don't believe the bottom four quintiles pay all that much in federal income tax. A single taxpayer making $34,000/year supposedly pays about 10% of that in federal income taxes. The biggest federal tax bite comes from SS taxes, if you include the emplyer's portion, and if you earn wages you pay that from dollar one to $118,5k.

Qwinn said...

"Half" is now "a small core"?

Okay then. Two small cores of liberals are innumerate imbeciles.

Achilles said...

"She later apologized and retracted the word "half" as people were deliberately taking her literally. "

Poor Hillary. She only hates a bit less than half the supporters of her opponent. But she is a person who has corrupted the FBI and the DOJ and put herself above the laws of this country. She has knowingly lied to the faces of the parents of dead veterans while standing on their coffins.

Anyone who supports Hillary Clinton has flushed their soul down a toilet.

hombre said...

Article like this from the Hillary Mediaswine at the NYT contribute to the division. They know that. Of course, the elites are not looking for healing, they are looking for power. Time to put down the "deplorables."

The better outcome will be to see these rumpswabs struggle to survive with only 40% patronizing their drivel, half of whom are morons, the other half skeptics.

Achilles said...

Blogger Freder Frederson said...

There are assholes on both sides that tear down and deface opponents' yard sign. I had my Kerry sign torn down twice in the 2004 election (and yes I am sure there were incidents where some assholes tore down Bush signs).

Pure bullshit. There have been exactly zero violent attacks on Clinton rallies. You people have attacked many trump rallies and the DNC has been cought organizing it.

You people are going to be very sad when we treat you like you treat us. Your best outcome is a trump victory.

Terry said...

What Hillary has done with her 'basement dwellers" and "basket of deplorables" remarks is to characterize the voters who don't like her as either moral cretins or starry-eyed idealists.
Charles Blow, the wannabe commissar, notes that Hillary had relatively nice things to say about the other basket of Trump supporters. They were forgotten, left out, and ignored by the elites and resented it.
Blow is having none of that, however. Blow is a big believer in guilt by association.
It doesn’t matter how lovely your family, how honorable your work or service, how devout your faith — if you place ideological adherence or economic self interest above the moral imperative to condemn and denounce a demagogue, then you are deplorable.
So, if I am reading Blow correctly, voting for anyone other than Hillary -- or not voting at all -- would be an immoral act. In an ideal United States, Hillary there would be 100% voter turnout, and Hillary would get 100% of the votes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/opinion/about-the-basket-of-deplorables.html

FullMoon said...

Brando said... [hush]​[hide comment]

"Ask the average young person how much they paid in income tax. Many will say, "Nothing, I got money back".
If everyone paid quarterly, there might actually be something done to change the system."

They'd have to be dumb to not notice money was withheld with every paycheck and actually think the government was giving them free money.


That is my point. Not so much dumb, as ignorant.Many do not think about their deductions at all, just accept it. In this era of direct deposit paychecks, even less awareness of how much govt takes.

GWash said...

I have it on good authority from this blog that it's Trump in a landslide... so achilles, terry etc.. no need to worry... and while we're at taking polls, let's see how many of you good folks believe that human activity does not contribute to climate change, that this warming of the earth is just another of God's cycles... here's a chance for the brightest on the blog to stretch and give their best scientific assessment of what's going on with the climate...

Achilles said...

Blogger Freder Frederson said...
The contributors merely need to stop contributing to make things hard on people like you in your concentrated little cities.

You do realize you have this exactly backwards? Tax dollars flow from the elite, urban states to the rural ones. It is flyover country that depends on the coastal elites to maintain their "self reliant" lifestyle.

This is probably the most ignorant thing you people say.

I look forward to seeing you people figure out how to generate electricity in your little enclaves. Maybe a wind farm on top of the White House. I look forward to seeing the cities try to feed themselves. Be fun to watch you have to house the poor people you currently stick in ghettos inside your little enclaves.

I don't think you even know where these things you take for granted come from. And the next time we fix your house or your car or fix your air conditioner please pay in cash.

buwaya said...

" here's a chance for the brightest on the blog to stretch and give their best scientific assessment of what's going on with the climate"

Simple and complete answer is nobody really has any idea. That doesn't stop people from trying to make $Billions (costing everyone else $Trillions) by pretending they do.

GWash said...

Not an answer mr puti. it is measurable and most climate scientists agree... that human activity such as burning of fossil fuel directly correlates to the warming of the atmosphere...

Terry said...

GWash

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FullMoon said...

Wash said...

I have it on good authority from this blog that it's Trump in a landslide... so achilles, terry etc.. no need to worry... and while we're at taking polls, let's see how many of you good folks believe that human activity does not contribute to climate change, that this warming of the earth is just another of God's cycles... here's a chance for the brightest on the blog to stretch and give their best scientific assessment of what's going on with the climate...


Well, I am no scientist, but even I can see that ever since the do-gooders banned r12 and fixed the hole in the ozone layer, the climate has been totally fucked up. Law of unintended consequences. Obviously the hole was there as a heat/ pressure relief valve

Achilles said...

Blogger GWash said...
"I have it on good authority from this blog that it's Trump in a landslide... so achilles, terry etc.. no need to worry... and while we're at taking polls, let's see how many of you good folks believe that human activity does not contribute to climate change, that this warming of the earth is just another of God's cycles... here's a chance for the brightest on the blog to stretch and give their best scientific assessment of what's going on with the climate..."

I love abusing you idiots.

1. The difference between 350 ppm CO2 and 380 ppm CO2 has no noticeable effect on climate. N and O levels change more than that daily. If you look at the history of the earths atmosphere CO2 levels have been over 2000 ppm more than under 2000 ppm.

2. Every climate change model is built on an assumption that there is a positive feedback loop between temperature and CO2 level increases. This is obviously untrue. As temperatures and CO2 levels go up plant respiration goes up and plant growth goes up. Positive feedback loops are an obvious lie.

3. Since the last ice age 10000 years ago temperature has been slowly increasing. Nothing in the last 200 years is outside variance.

4. Antarctic ice is at record levels.

5. The scientific method is not being used by warming advocates. Global warming advocates destroy original data before we can see it. Adjusted data and the adjustment criteria are hidden. People who come out with contrary data are blacklisted from government grant agencies. It is a mockery of real science.

Brando said...

"That is my point. Not so much dumb, as ignorant.Many do not think about their deductions at all, just accept it. In this era of direct deposit paychecks, even less awareness of how much govt takes."

Yeah, there's certainly less direct awareness of it--sort of like how EZ Pass makes us less grumpy about paying tolls as we're not stopping and pulling out cash. And the complexity of the tax code is something that bugs us in the spring but by election time it's a more distant memory.

Terry said...

GWash said...
Not an answer mr puti. it is measurable and most climate scientists agree... that human activity such as burning of fossil fuel directly correlates to the warming of the atmosphere...

No, they don't. Most climate scientists say that human activity contributes to climate change. So do a number of other things (solar activity, volcanic activity, natural change in cloud cover and land/water surface area ratio, etc.)
The IPCC talks about probabilities of deltas in global temperatures over time. Politicians and liberals talk about certainties, not scientists.

Brando said...

"You people are going to be very sad when we treat you like you treat us."

Ok, I'll regret this, but I'll bite--how is it you're being treated by the Left that you'll respond in kind?

GWash said...

terry, thats was i was trying to say.. not that human activity exclusively caused the warming... but that there is a direct correlation between burning fossil fuels and the warming of the earth... not that it is the only contributing factor.. i don't think that volcanic activity or solar activity has increased that much in the last 2 centuries.. but fossil fuel usage has increased tremendously no matter what the size of co2 molecules...

Achilles said...

Blogger Brando said

"Ok, I'll regret this, but I'll bite--how is it you're being treated by the Left that you'll respond in kind?"

At this point I would settle for being left alone.

But I want stuff too and I am really tired of working 80 hours a week. I think the people who have it should give it to me.

buwaya said...

GWash -

Correlation is not causation. Notably nobody has been able to predict year on year global temperatures and there is in fact no consensus even on how to measure them. What you have is piles of papers on models. It is entirely speculative until there actually is observable warming.

In the meantime, all mitigation attempts are enormously costly. This is absolutely not justified by such vagueness. Especially not justified is all the associated corruption. In Europe the largest cases of public corruption ever prosecuted have been those of alternative energy schemes, in Spain for instance. In the US we have seen such incredible waste and cost. The price of electricity diverges ridiculously between states mainly due to the expense and waste of alternative energy policies. This is solid proof of gross corruption.

Any honest advocate of mitigation should therefore, before anything else, establish an atmosphere of utter probity, through the entire replacement of the leadership of the EPA and DOE and of various state governments.

Brando said...

"At this point I would settle for being left alone."

Amen to that. Sadly it isn't to be. It'd be nice if more people learned the expression "none of my damn business, what do I care".

"But I want stuff too and I am really tired of working 80 hours a week. I think the people who have it should give it to me."

And that's the growing attitude in this country. Someone else is always responsible for our problems, and even if not, they have to help out. And so on and so forth.

Achilles said...

I don't think Gwash has ever been outside his bubble. That was too easy.

GWash said...

achilles, believe what you will.. natural or man made do we agree that the earth's atmoshpere is heating and we don't have a plan other than lets just wait and see if it cools again?

Achilles said...

"And that's the growing attitude in this country. Someone else is always responsible for our problems, and even if not, they have to help out. And so on and so forth."

Like I said. They are going to be really sad when we treat them like they treat us.

I am not going to be a sap when people like Hillary destroy the rule of law. This country is based on a moral contract that requires willing participation. It is necessary for freedom to exist. But a country and a people capable of electing Hillary is not worthy of freedom and the people like me who maintain it for you all will stop doing so.

Brando said...

"I am not going to be a sap when people like Hillary destroy the rule of law. This country is based on a moral contract that requires willing participation. It is necessary for freedom to exist. But a country and a people capable of electing Hillary is not worthy of freedom and the people like me who maintain it for you all will stop doing so."

Are you going Galt? I suggest the Great Smoky Mountains, very remote but weather's decent.

The people get what they deserve. We can't say we didn't know what we were electing.

GWash said...

You can stop now achilles... plus as Mick said 'trump in a landslide'...

Achilles said...

Blogger GWash said...
"achilles, believe what you will.. natural or man made do we agree that the earth's atmoshpere is heating and we don't have a plan other than lets just wait and see if it cools again?"

1. You got owned. You can't discuss a single point I made much less refute them.

2. People throughout history have flourished during periods of warmer temperatures. Huge chunks of Canada will be awesome if they get a bit warmer. There is really no downside to warmer temperatures. None of the stupid disaster scenarios wealthy people like al gore peddle to you idiots are really even plausible. Wasn't all of the snow supposed to be gone off Everest by now? I am far more concerned by a bunch of worthless bureaucrats being put in charge of things they have no business being in charge of.

Achilles said...

Blogger GWash said...
"You can stop now achilles... plus as Mick said 'trump in a landslide'..."

I was hoping for better from you. Disappointing.

Terry said...

not that human activity exclusively caused the warming... but that there is a direct correlation between burning fossil fuels and the warming of the earth
No, there is not, GWash. The statement "you can determine the rate of the warming of the earth by measuring the rate that fossil fuels are being burned" is a false statement.

GWash said...

i'm glad to hear the better days are ahead... president trump and no snow to shovel... it's a brave new world ... i'll look forward to it... in the meantime i'll try to do a better job of understanding what i read from people whose job it is to closely study the world around us using and report what they see not what their ideology tells them.. the world really is flat !

Achilles said...

Blogger Brando said...

"Are you going Galt? I suggest the Great Smoky Mountains, very remote but weather's decent.

The people get what they deserve. We can't say we didn't know what we were electing."

No need to go anywhere. Just pay in cash please.

As long as you live in the right area they will have an impossible task finding 12 people who will side with the IRS against you. And always keep in mind "Don't shit where you sleep."

320Busdriver said...

Blogger buwaya said...
"You do realize you have this exactly backwards? Tax dollars flow from the elite, urban states to the rural ones. It is flyover country that depends on the coastal elites to maintain their "self reliant" lifestyle."

You have this precisely backwards Freder. It is a common misunderstanding, but it yields to a little consideration of, for instance, tax collection data.

Here ya go

Looks like TX NV and FL are the big winners.....ever wonder why?

Achilles said...

Gwash should go back to huffpo. You are out of your league here.

Matthew Sablan said...

"No, there is not, GWash. The statement "you can determine the rate of the warming of the earth by measuring the rate that fossil fuels are being burned" is a false statement."

-- I wonder how many fossil fuels we burned during all those really warm generations in the Middle Ages and earlier.

This isn't to say we shouldn't be looking into ways to save the natural resources on our planet, but that should be viewed as a good in and of itself instead of a fear cudgel wielded against the populace.

Terry said...

The reason why AGW advocates paint such a dire picture of the future is because if global warming makes the earth uninhabitable, there is no question of trade offs. If you start talking probabilities, then you have a point to begin discussion, and the Left hates discussion. They want you to shut up and do as you are told.
Bernie Sanders, during one of his debates with Clinton, said “The scientific community is telling us: if we do not address the global crisis of climate change, transform our energy system away from fossil fuels to sustainable energy, the planet that we’re going to be leaving our kids and our grandchildren may well not be inhabitable."
This grade-A crazee talk. The scientific community is not saying this, because this is not a scientific belief. It is a political statement meant to achieve a political result. Where were the army of fact checkers when crazy Bernie started spouting off his non-sensical, non-scientific statements about global warming? There are legions of liberals who want to censor what they claim is non-scientific speech about AGW. Where were they?

mtrobertslaw said...

"Correlation is not causation." buwaya, I think you lost GWash right there.

buwaya said...

" i'll try to do a better job of understanding what i read from people whose job it is to closely study the world around us using and report what they see not what their ideology tells them"

Like the fellows who actually first measured the global temperature from satellite measurements, created the first comparable, consistent dataset, which was the gold standard for such measurement until it no longer matched model predictions.

Look up John Christy and Roy Spencer.

I trust the guys who actually try to get accurate measurements, not those who try to make measurements match models.

Bruce Hayden said...

No need to go anywhere. Just pay in cash please.

Which is probably why the feds are trying to eliminate cash.

It is interesting to see what happens with the IRS over the next couple of Administrations. They showed their politicization with their refusal to grant tax exempt status to Tea Party groups, and then gave Lois Lerner her full pension, after taking the 5th Amdt. And, didn't bother to investigate the rash of hard drive crashes of her and her associates work computers. The new IRS commissioner was supposed to clean things up, but instead was found in contempt of Congress for obstructing their investigations.

They probably need more money to do their job. They continue to claim such. But, they aren't going to get it, as long as the Republicans control at least one House of Congress. Which means that most of what they do to audit most of us is simple data matching. If someone files a 1099, etc. with your SS#, they will eventually make sure that that income shows up on your tax return. Maybe. But, if there is anything more complicated, such as shell corporations that don't properly file these forms, they are mostly SOL, unless you are a billionaire like Trump. A big part of that latter is that the additional tax that they would raise by personally auditing most taxpayers (thanks to our highly progressive income tax system) won't cover the cost of the audit. It often does, when you are talking millions a year in income, which is a big reason that most of their actual auditing is directed at those making the most money.

I have heard a lot of people over the last couple of years, and esp. after the Lois Lerner scandal, tell me that they are starting to hide as much income as they possibly can from the IRS. This isn't good for the country. We have a quasi-voluntary income tax system (enforced by audits - which seem to be rarer every year), and that means that we may find ourselves soon like Italy and Greece, where income tax evasion is a national sport. But, it is what you can expect, when the Dems collaborate with highly politicized unionized IRS employees to enforce the tax laws on a politically discriminatory basis.

Terry said...

If you really want a natural disaster to worry about, look up "Carrington Event." The last super solar storm happened about a century and a half ago. The effects of another Carrington Event would be horrendous, and global, and it will happen again. The fact that the last one occurred 'just' a century and half ago implies that they aren't that uncommon. It's hard to pinpont their frequency. I believe that scientists try to get a timeline of solar events by looking at isotopes in arctic and antarctic ice cores. I've heard that an average of five centuries between Carrington Events is not too far from the truth.
But prepping for a major solar storm isn't sexy. Critical infrastructure would have to be hardened and redundant power distribution systems would have to be built. Hard to get elected on that. There would be no feeling of moral superiority over Carrington-denying troglodite conservatives.

320Busdriver said...

Well I did my part in WI, despite earlier trepidation I cast a straight R ticket today.

Trump, Johnson, Sensenbrenner et al

Listened to Charlie Sykes attempt to rationalize his intent to write in McMullin and found his explanation lacking.



Bruce Hayden said...

GWash has drunk the Kool Aid.

As has been pointed out above, the only things predicting AGW are models, based on supposed positive feedback. Even with recent undocumented, and highly questionable, revisions to recent temperature data by NOAA, the reality is that the Earth really hasn't been warming much, if any, over the last maybe decade and a half. Part of the problem is probably being near a minimum of sunspot activity, which reduces the amount of solar energy received. But, the other thing to keep in mind is that AGW got really going after the abject failure of AGC, when the Earth was maybe really warming, instead of cooling, as expected. But, we are really still coming out of the Little Ice Age, and so some warming should be expected, at least until we return to previous temperature levels. So, with the failure of the Earth to warm up as predicted by so many of the climate models, they quietly switched from AGW to AGCC (Anthropogenic Global Climate Change). You know that it is a scam though, when the same arguments made for AGW are carelessly used to justify AGCC, but the problem with AGCC is that it is not falsifiable (and, thus, not a true scientific theory). More hurricanes or fewer supposedly demonstrate AGCC. Heads they win, tails you lose. Etc.

And, the elephant in the room is that the best short run solution to a rising level of CO2 is fracking for natural gas, and long term, it is nuclear. Not surprisingly, Crooked Hillary has promised to eliminate fracking through regulations, if she is elected. My guess is that a lot of that push is a result of all the oil money that the Gulf States (including Saudi Arabia) have given the Clintons - even the Saudis are hurting right now). Reduction in CO2 levels is important to her, as long as it can be done without harming her family economically.

Terry said...

In principle I hate early voting -- but I will be working at a remote site on 8 November so I voted earlier this week. Darrell Castle, Constitution Party, got my presidential vote. I voted D for state rep in my district because a Democrat or a Greenie always wins, and the Green Party candidate is on record saying she wants to shut down the industry that pays my wages. So I voted strategically for that office. I voted for the Libertarian candidate for county council because I know him and he's a nice guy, even if he's something of a hypocrite (he is a retired civil servant).

Joe said...

"do we agree that the earth's atmoshpere [sic] is heating"

No.

Since 1896, the average temperature hasn't changed. The change is due due to two things:

1) Making 1895 the base. 1895 was extraordinarily cold.

2) Adjusting the temperature record downward in the past at an increasing rate as you go back in time.

Achilles said...

Tyler Durden: [to the police chief] Hi. You're going to call off your rigorous investigation. You're going to publicly state that there is no underground group. Or... these guys are going to take your balls. They're going to send one to the New York Times, one to the LA Times press-release style. Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... fuck with us.

buwaya said...

"and long term, it is nuclear. "

Correct, though its not just long term. The US has a new nuke after all at Watts Bar, Tennessee.

The only little problem here is that nuke is not going to drive up the price of electricity. Which is necessary in order to make large profits off of regulation. Consider that California has shut down or is in the process of shutting down all its nuclear plants.

I will believe they are serious about global warming when they streamline licensing and operational procedure/overhead for nukes.

Mountain Maven said...

Idle talk, until they come for the guns.

Achilles said...

"I will believe they are serious about global warming when they streamline licensing and operational procedure/overhead for nukes."

This.

Global warming has always been about instituting hydraulic despotism over the economy by controlling fossil fuels and giving more control to unelected bureaucracies who serve the aristocracy.

Bruce Hayden said...

I will believe they are serious about global warming when they streamline licensing and operational procedure/overhead for nukes.

The thing that must be remembered here is that nuclear technology has advanced significantly since Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and the Japanese meltdown. One very big difference is that a lot of the designs are now "fail safe". In the old style reactors, fission had to be actively stopped by the insertion, for example, of absorbent rods. The newer designs work the other way - rods have to be inserted, and kept inserted, to keep fission going, and when nothing is done, the rods automatically retract, stopping fission. In short, they fail in a safe, and not a dangerous, condition. Also, a number of modern fission reactor designs are small and highly modular. Which means that any potential nuclear disasters are much less likely to affect very many people.

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

“If push comes to shove,” he added, and Mrs. Clinton “has to go by any means necessary, it will be done.”

Speaking truth to power.

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

buwaya puti @7:54: "The bureaucracy are your real masters and they are invulnerable."

Google up "public unions tax increase" for recent articles about public [sector|employee] unions [proposing|lobbying for] tax increases.

When employees of of markets controlled by governments (federal, state and local governments; public k-12 schools; public colleges; medical service providers; child and adult day care; agriculture; defense contractors; grant writers; any non-profit that receives government grants; etc.) reach the level of.....well, about what we have now ...

...then anybody whose livelihood is from the remaining part of the economy that is actually free market best hold onto his|her|their wallet. With both hands.

Bad Lieutenant said...

GWash: i don't think that volcanic activity or solar activity has increased that much in the last 2 centuries

Read a book. Solar activity dwarfs all other inputs.

Howard said...

buwaya puti: correct, but nuke has the opposite operational problem as wind/solar. Nuke needs to run all the time so it is best as a baseload. Natural gas can be more easily throttled for variable demand.

I agree with Mrs. Clinton that natural gas is the perfect replacement for coal for use as a bridge to CO2-free power.

Global warming is just red meat for the far left and a red cape for the entire conservative right. The global aristocracy needs cheap power to stay in power. Most people realize this and is why it is not on the radar of important issues except to the diehard fans.

Howard said...

BL: Don't be shy, explain it to us how variations in sun spots causes variations in GCR cloud formation. Svensmark still has not proved it yet. The actual solar power output is quite stable. The funny thing is that sceptics complain that CO2 changes are in parts per million, yet get excited about the part per billion effects of sun spot/GCR.

320Busdriver said...

"...then anybody whose livelihood is from the remaining part of the economy that is actually free market best hold onto his|her|their wallet. With both hands."

And there you see how and what happened in WI with Act 10. And why Walker was the only Governor in history to survive a recall election. You can bet the Dems were taking notes for when they come into power.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Terry said...
In principle, blabbity blah, Darrell Castle, Constitution Party, got my presidential vote. Blabbity blah...

Terry, please be so kind as to change your avatar, either to something with Mr. Castle's picture or logo, or with a different Warner Bros cel, such as the many braying donkeys they used as the mental picture portraying a character's realization that he was a stupendous jackass.

I wish to be reminded, every time I see your posts, that you are dead to me, and that I will never have a reason to read anything you ever write again; or, to put it another way, that you will never have another thought worth expressing.

The two symbologies, Castle or jackass, will be equal in this regard.

I will not burden a Hillary supporter further with my reflections, painful as they may be. I will only share these remarks of Samuel Adams, whose name should be familiar to a votary of something that calls itself the "Constitution Party:"

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom--go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!

You had your chance and you blew it.

Now I have done.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Howard: Don't be shy, express in seconds the time it would take to end all Earthly life higher than the yeasts:

a) should the Sun refuse to shine

b) should the Sun go nova

Show your work.

buwaya said...

"The global aristocracy needs cheap power to stay in power."

The global aristocracy wants EXPENSIVE power to profit. Thats what they are after, always, everywhere. Its an "invisible" tax on everything.

You can use baseload creatively. Schedule industrial processes like aluminum smelting or desalination. And there is no reason not to have Nat Gas peakers, or pump storage, or dozens of other things. And the big shortage in case of "clean" power is baseload anyway.

buwaya said...

BTW,

Check out Limbaugh. He's on the Teneo/Doug Band thing I called out a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2016/10/27/an_explanation_of_how_clinton_inc_raked_in_cash_through_cronyism

Teneo has interesting contacts and friends - a who's who of people formerly thought virtuous, and likewise institutions formerly not under the shadow of corruption -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teneo

Bad Lieutenant said...

Extra credit: "explain it to us" how earthly pollution causes global warming on Mars:


Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says ...
principia-scientific.org › mars-melt-hints-...
May 6, 2016 - In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon ...


If you were serious about the stated problem, you would be interested in means to actually regulate the global climate. Reducing temperatures by reducing carbon outputs by crippling society is...can't think of a better word than "pathetic" right now.

As for your "The global aristocracy needs cheap power to stay in power"

Talk about paranoid! Meanwhile, you spelled "Western Civilization" wrong.

buwaya said...

How to make cheap electricity expensive - an instructive case -

http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/OEB/Consumers/Electricity/Electricity+Prices/Historical+Electricity+Prices

Note that Ontario was almost entirely a nuke+hydro combo. Thats a CHEAP combo.

Then they started with the "renewables" and more than doubled their prices. Even now with 2X prices they have less than 25% generation from "renewables".

buwaya said...

"Talk about paranoid!"

I'm more paranoid, but I differ. They want expensive power and will do nearly anything to get it.
Thats what the whole "global warming" business is about.

Francisco D said...

Owen,

I am glad you read a book about the War of the Roses. I wondered if you learned anything.

As a devoted Yorkist, I have to point out that the Lancastrian overthrow was only legitimized by Henry VII's exceptional grasp of propaganda and people willing to blatantly lie on his behalf, accusing Richard III of crimes that Henry's people committed.

I wonder if there is a parallel to modern times?

Howard said...

BL no one, not even serious sceptics, trot out those old canards about Mars. Your hysterical opinions about the sun are soap opera logic. It's time to man up my old sun. In any event, I believe that standard air pollution causes more damage than CO2, that's why I support fracking and natural gas as a bridge fuel. Coal is neanderthal power and should be marginalized. Nuke is the way of the future and using it to recharge our cars overnight is the way to even out the demand.

Look at northern hemisphere glaciers and ice sheets, they are all blackened by industrial pollution... which is one reason global warming started in the 1800's. The other is deforestation and agriculture. Albedo is the biggest unknown in the equation. CO2 is easy, it provides nice slow minor warming while the other processes that decrease Albedo are asymmetric and leveraged.

Howard said...

buyawa: there is more profit in the vig they skim when we pay them interest to print our money. Fuel prices keep dropping, so it's hard to believe the real money power is behind boutique unreliable eco green power horseshit. People are actually concerned about the environment and can be easily fooled, so that becomes another cheap button to push for votes. Just look at the gibberish BL spouts. He's like the opposite of an environmental hysteric who just happens to pray to a different god.

buwaya said...

" it's hard to believe the real money power is behind boutique unreliable eco green power horseshit."

Believe it.

In the US we spent $44B on "renewables" investment in 2015, no doubt well skimmed, plus $20-30B in "carbon credits" a great deal of which went to pay off political players in the US like Mr. Steyer. Thats a nice pile. Oh, and thats how the Tesla dude makes his money. You'd be surprised who has his nose in all this.

You know, that much $ would buy quite a few 2GW nukes at $4-5B/each.

Look at Euro electric rates. There is no reason on this green earth for that.
Compare CA and NY rates (and some others) vs flyover. No, really, go check.
There is no reason for any of this. Its not coal, its not nuke, its not nat gas prices, its not even cost of living etc. Its Albany and Sacramento and Washington and etc.

They can skim from the money and interest but that doesn't mean they aren't skimming from everything they can get their hands on.

Gahrie said...

and thats how the Tesla dude makes his money.

If you are talking about Elon Musk, you are wrong, or at least inaccurate.

His company did receive government loans while starting up. However they have all been repaid, with interest. The taxpayers made a profit off of the deal.

There are programs that reward people who buy electric cars with tax breaks, HOV lanes and even subsidies, but those go to all electric cars, not just Teslas.

Elon invested his own time, money and sweat to make Tesla a success, he is not an example of a green boondoggle.

Terry said...

Bad Lieutenant wrote:
Terry said...
In principle, blabbity blah, Darrell Castle, Constitution Party, got my presidential vote. Blabbity blah...

Terry, please be so kind as to change your avatar, either to something with Mr. Castle's picture or logo, or with a different Warner Bros cel, such as the many braying donkeys they used as the mental picture portraying a character's realization that he was a stupendous jackass.

I wish to be reminded, every time I see your posts, that you are dead to me, and that I will never have a reason to read anything you ever write again; or, to put it another way, that you will never have another thought worth expressing.

The two symbologies, Castle or jackass, will be equal in this regard.

I think that what you meant to write, BL, was "You are so clueless that if you dressed in a clue skin, doused yourself in clue musk, and did the clue dance in the middle of a field of horny clues at the height of clue mating season, you still would not have a clue. If you were a movie you would be a double feature; _Battlefield_Earth_ and _Moron_Movies_II_. You would be out of focus."

Howard said...

Yeah, but no one is making any real money on hippy power. These are minor graft recipients. It's not like the General Dynamics or Wells Fargo's.

In any event, as an engineer, I'm sure you don't deny the basic radiative physics of CO2 gas in the atmosphere producing a 1.1K increase for a doubling from 280- to 560-ppmv. Your beef is with the chicken little hysterics, right?

Terry said...

Lol, here is my new Darrel Castle avatar, as suggested by Bad Looey.

Howard said...

Terry versus Bad Lieutenant: NHI

Howard said...

Gahrie: I agree, however, Musk is taking every advantage the feds are giving away. I especially like how Musk has kicked Lockheed-Boeing in the balls with his cheap launches. His success absolutely shows that the wild west is still alive.

That dude puts his money where is mouth is. He is the polar opposite of the scum-sucking Trump.

Musk Biography

Bad Lieutenant said...


Blogger Howard said...
Yeah, but no one is making any real money on hippy power. These are minor graft recipients. It's not like the General Dynamics or Wells Fargo's


Solyndra at, IIRC, $250 million, is chump change?

Bad Lieutenant said...

Howard, I see you like this word, hysterical. Does it make you feel powerful?

buwaya said...

Musk is selling California emissions credits to other car companies to comply with California laws -
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-02-17/elon-musk-s-teslas-don-t-need-a-government-subsidy

buwaya said...

"Solyndra at, IIRC, $250 million, is chump change?"

It is, compared to what Dianne Feinsteins husband is making on the California train to nowhere.

Also California solar power. Also windmills.

Bad Lieutenant said...

I think that what you meant to write, BL, was "You are so clueless that if you dressed in a clue skin,...


That may suffice, but if I were going lowbrow I would have cited Billy Madison:

Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Seriously, how could you!?!

Gahrie said...

As a devoted Yorkist, I have to point out that the Lancastrian overthrow

Hmm...the House of York overthrew the rightful king of England themselves, and the line is dead anyhow...the last male York heir died in 1499.

Gahrie said...

Musk is taking every advantage the feds are giving away

He'd be an idiot not to...his competitors sure are.......the government subsidizes gasoline powered cars at least as much as it does electric cars.

buwaya said...

"I'm sure you don't deny the basic radiative physics of CO2 gas in the atmosphere producing a 1.1K increase for a doubling from 280- to 560-ppmv. Your beef is with the chicken little hysterics, right?"

The problem with that is it comes up with an almost unmeasurable temperature increase on its own. That parts per million you ate talking about there. The whole business of global warming model scenarios depends on a positive feedback loop that assumes atmospheric water vapor will increase even more in response to a very small temperature increase due to CO2 and hence create measurable global warming. This is a very iffy thing. Speaking as an engineer, this is a case of "show me".

There is just a vast range of factors that aren't taken into account; that its not known how to take into account; or are completely unknown as yet; and moreover none of this can be tested.

buwaya said...

To put it another way re Musk - he is legally taxing all California car buyers - besides whatever he is collecting through the Feds and etc.

Thats the nature of these laws. The money is coming from someone. This is crony capitalism, kleptocracy of a classic sort.

Terry said...

Bad Lieutenant, the state I live in has just four electoral votes and went Obama over Romney 2:1 in 1012. If I lived in a state where Trump had any chance, I would have voted for him. I gave the Trump campaign a hundred bucks a few months ago. I never gave Castle (or Hillary) a dime :)

Terry said...

How much money would Musk make on SpaceX if the feds weren't paying for his launches?
Zero. The answer is zero.
How much money would Musk make on Tesla if the feds weren't subsidizing electric cars?
Zero. The answer is zero.

Howard said...

Buwaya puti: the 1.1K is the no feedback radiative physics. I agree that the feedback scenarios are arm-waving.

Howard said...

Terry: If the feds didn't buy Musk's launches, Tesla, SpaceX and Solar City would all be gone today and Elon would be working at McDonalds. He risked everything he had on those launches you ignorant peon.

Gahrie said...

natural or man made do we agree that the earth's atmoshpere is heating and we don't have a plan other than lets just wait and see if it cools again?"

The current geological epoch is the Holocene. It began around 12,000 years ago. It is an interglacial (or warming period) in the current ice age.

Get that?

The Earth is in the middle of an ice age. The Holoc4ene is just a short interval of warming in the middle of that ice age, and all of human history and civilization has occurred during the Holocene.

When the Earth warmed in the Medieval Warm Period civilization flourished. During the Little Ice Age population fell as people starved to death.

One day there will be a mile of ice over the sites of Chicago and Detroit once again, no matter what we humans do.

Gahrie said...

To put it another way re Musk - he is legally taxing all California car buyers

No he's not. The government is taxing the car buyers and offering the money to Musk and to people who buy Musk's cars.

Gahrie said...

How much money would Musk make on SpaceX if the feds weren't paying for his launches?
Zero. The answer is zero.


Not quite zero. Musk has a healthy business selling launches to private interests. But to be fair (which you aren't) SpaceX would not exist without government support...just like every other operational space company.

How much money would Musk make on Tesla if the feds weren't subsidizing electric cars?
Zero. The answer is zero.


Perhaps. But wasn't that the point of the federal subsidies in the first place..to encourage the design and production of electric cars? So Musk is basically guilty of doing exactly what we wanted him to do?

And if the federal subsidies are all that is needed to be successful making electric cars...why isn't anyone else doing it?

Francisco D said...

Gahrie,

Richard of York was the legitimate successor of Henry VI, who was certainly an impaired King. Richard's son Edward IV was a battlefield warrior who enforced the appropriate and agreed upon line of succession. Henry VII had the LEAST legitimate claim to the throne among many claimants after Edward died. He bribed the media of the day to make Richard III (Edward's brother) into a monster. William Shakespeare may have been Henry's Chris Mathews.

Gee, that sounds familiar. Has there been a Republican candidate in the last 50 years who has not been demonized by our current propagandists - the MSM?

Terry said...

"Not quite zero. Musk has a healthy business selling launches to private interests."
That does not mean SpaceX is profitable w/o launches paid for by NASA for the ISS. SpaceX is not a financially transparent firm.
"So Musk is basically guilty of doing exactly what we wanted him to do?"
I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make with this statement, Gahrie. You could justify the subsidized launches by ULA using the same language.

Gahrie said...

Richard of York was the legitimate successor of Henry VI, who was certainly an impaired King. Richard's son Edward IV was a battlefield warrior who enforced the appropriate and agreed upon line of succession

Edward IV deposed the rightful King, Henry VI TWICE, before having him murdered. Henry's rightful heir was his son, Edward, who was killed in battle fighting the forces who had deposed his father. The last of the York Kings, Richard III, killed his nephews and stole the crown from the rightful heir again. Henry Tudor at least took the crown by killing the current king in battle, the time honored way.

Gahrie said...

"So Musk is basically guilty of doing exactly what we wanted him to do?"
I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make with this statement, Gahrie. You could justify the subsidized launches by ULA using the same language.


That statement applied to Tesla and the government subsidies for electric cars, not SpaceX.

I also stated that EVERY operational space company relies on government support....that includes SpaceX, ULA, and OrbitalATK.

SpaceX just does it better and cheaper than everyone else, and as a bonus, does't buy parts from Russia.

Gahrie said...

So I would argue that Obama is Edward IV, Hillary is Richard III and Trump is Henry VII.

Gahrie said...

Bernie Sanders is Edward V.

BN said...

"What makes fear dark?"

1 part fear, 2 parts anger.

It's quite tasty actually.

BN said...

In a sick sort of way.

Michael K said...

Gahrie, I've been gone all day at this thing called "work." Good posts,

BN said...

"So I would argue that Obama is Edward IV, Hillary is Richard III and Trump is Henry VII."

Yes, that's exactly what we all were thinking.

But you left out Hitler. Somebody's got to be Hitler.

BN said...

"So I would argue that Obama is Edward IV, Hillary is Richard III and Trump is Henry VII."

The War of the Ruses.

Gahrie said...

I'm not the one who brought up the War of the Roses........

Gahrie said...

But you left out Hitler. Somebody's got to be Hitler.

Titus Andronicus?

Portia?

Gahrie said...

The War of the Ruses.

I know Ruse Bolton. I've flayed bodies with Ruse Bolton. You sir, are no Ruse Bolton.

Terry said...

Hilaire Belloc wrote that the father of Henry VII was an illegitimate son of a Welsh adventurer.

Terry said...

Gahrie, here is the problem with SpaceX and any other entity trying to make real profits, as opposed to steering subsidies their way, from launching payloads into space: the market is limited.
Satellite launches are about as cheap as they can get, 10 to 20 million $ to get five tons or so to geosynch orbit. Musk has, I believe, stated OTR that $1000/kilogram is about as cheap as chemical rocket technology can ever get. FYI, this compares with < 50$/kg to get something to McMurdo in Antarctica. Some comms, navigation, and imaging satellite tech has launch restrictions that narrows the launch market to SpaceX and ULA (and maybe Ariadne, I can't remember). If not, the Russians and the Indians would put SpaceX and ULA OOB pretty quickly.
Civil comms, nav, and imaging satellite launches should be able to pay for themselves w/o subsidies. Launching human beings to orbit and supplying human inhabited space stations is limited by available taxpayer subsidies. Opinions may differ, but I believe the space tourism market is to small to supply the revenue a robust, unsubsidized human launch-to-orbit industry would require. That leaves you with resource extraction and space and planetary colonization as growth areas.
Good luck with that.

BN said...

"I've flayed bodies with Ruse Bolton."

Neighbors' cats?

openidname said...

If Trump wins, there really will be riots. The NYT is softening everybody up for that by claiming that Trump supporters would do the same thing. Why, the Lefties will practically be able to claim that the Trump supporters did it first.

Rusty said...

Gahrie.
I'm no fan of Tesla. For now I think all electric vehicles are just a novelty. But some more information, Nevada gave Musk 1.3 billion of incentives to invest there. California gave him 15 million to create jobs. He gets 195 million in federal carbon tax credits which he can sell as he pleases. All of this is over and above any taxpayer funded incentives to buy his cars. This is for Tesla. Not SpaceX.
I like what Musk is doing with SpaceX. If you have a good idea there is no need for taxpayers to subsidize it.

damikesc said...

Obama wins, sabotage the economy

How did the GOP "sabotage the economy"? Obama running trillion dollar deficits regularly and the Feds keeping interest rates at zero weren't enough to overcome whatever "sabotage" the GOP did? Odd.

As for the rest, you're aware that they are under no obligation to vote foe any of Hillary's nominees. Thanks to Dems, they aren't even obligated to bring them up for a vote.

You do realize you have this exactly backwards? Tax dollars flow from the elite, urban states to the rural ones. It is flyover country that depends on the coastal elites to maintain their "self reliant" lifestyle.

Keep your money.

We'll keep, you know, the food. And the know how on how to fix shit.

See how long you last.

Jack Sherman said...

Riots?? Or mybe just lawsuits like in 2000

Kirk Parker said...

Terry and Gahrie,

Hold on a minute! If those space launches are something the government needs then they aren't subsidizing SpaceX in any normal meaning of the word "subsidy", especially if SpaceX is getting those launch contracts because they are cheaper than the alternative!