March 30, 2016

What really happened in this grope-punch-pepper-spray incident at yesterday's Trump rally in Janesville?

Video and descriptions at USA Today and at The Daily News. And here's the police press release.

The young woman is pepper sprayed, which looks terrible, but she's also seen smacking or trying to smack a man on the head. There's some confusing discussion of "groping." There might be a groping off camera. I've looked at several of the available angles, and I do see 2 hands holding her back, touching her on one shoulder (as she is getting very fervent vocally, aiming the word "fuck" right in the face of the white-haired man).

I'm connecting this incident with the San Francisco State dreadlocks confrontation — blogged here — and the charging of Corey Lewandowski. In the SFSU case, the woman grabs the man, and in the Corey Lewandowski case, the woman is touched only after she touches Donald Trump twice. There seems to be a traditional stereotype at play that ignores or minimizes battery by a female and holds the male responsible to refrain from doing anything physical, even in self-defense. It's an interesting stereotype. Perhaps you support it. The man should never hit the woman, even if she is hitting him. But how does that traditional model work in modern conditions of demanded equality, in which a woman actively participates in a rowdy protest or pursues journalism aggressively or instigates a confrontation with a passing stranger?

264 comments:

1 – 200 of 264   Newer›   Newest»
Fabi said...

Somebody's feelin' the burn!

Rick said...

I do see 2 hands holding her back, touching her on one shoulder

These hands do not belong to the person she accused of groping her, who she is facing the entire time.

There seems to be an traditional stereotype at play that ignores or minimizes battery by a female and holds the male responsible to refrain from doing anything physical,

The video shows a deliberate activist tactic, not an a differential reaction to events.

madAsHell said...

deliberate activist tactic

I agree. Some of these people are being paid to agitate, but I'll bet she didn't see the pepper spray coming!!

Mark said...

Not sure I see the pepper spraying as defensible, especially of a minor.

She was rude and antagonistic, but attacking a minor never proves your point.

rhhardin said...

Men also should not tickle a woman back.

Rick said...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/03/30/after-alleged-groping-teen-trump-protester-pepper-sprayed-by-trump-supporter-outside-wisc-rally/

This is the WAPO link I posted on the other thread which includes the video taker's statement there was no sexual assault. There are actually three different videos.

rehajm said...

The video shows a deliberate activist tactic, not an a differential reaction to events.

Every self respecting peaceful protester knows you need to lean in to get the violent reaction from the opposition for the TV news but if you don't get it our friends in the TV news will simulate it for us.

john mosby said...

Is it just that people who don't live in big cities just aren't familiar with how to behave in crowds?

One rush hour on the CTA, MBTA, PATH, etc, has more unwanted touching than all of these campaign rallies put together.

If you applied the same standard used for these rally incidents, you could fill the daily papers and police blotters of NYC, Chicago, and Boston with nothing but battery after battery...

JSM

rhhardin said...

Battery as defined covers too much, so it's often outside the man never reciprocates rule.

Rick said...

Mark said...
Not sure I see the pepper spraying as defensible, especially of a minor.

She was rude and antagonistic, but attacking a minor never proves your point.


The pepper spraying was out of line but it's interesting Mark tries to present only her role as victim ignoring she punched the guy (or tried to).

Fabi said...

I guess Mark didn't see her rush the crowd or swing at the guy. Both assaults -- one is assault and battery, cupcake.

Jim said...

In KC we had a M to F tranny slap a horse at a Trump rally. What should the horse of done? If the horse refused to strike back at the Fauxmale, would the horse have been in the right because you don't hit a woman? Or would the horse have been OK to hit the Fauxmale because 23andme says it's male all the way down and that's ok?

P.S. I was at a hockey game one time, it was an exhibition game called Bud-Lite hockey nite. There was a fight in the stands that was pretty entertaining. The girlfriend of one of the guy who was getting bested by the other guy started pounding on the guy her boyfriend was fighting. The guy turned around and decked her with one punch and she hit the bleachers with a loud thud. Silence. The whole crowd just stopped in amazement.

Dude1394 said...

My brother was chivalrously stabbed with a kitchen fork while not touching his "lady wife". Then he was arrested.

Dude1394 said...

Why was the pepper spray out of line when someone is assaulting you? I mean doesn't it sort of go along with "be damn careful who you try to punch?"

Anyway...if I were a jury, I would acquit.

Mark said...

The guy who was punched did not do the pepper spraying.

If it was, that would be a whole different case, but the guy who was 'punched' did not respond. This wasn't self defense, don't play it off like it was.

Tim said...

The girl got what she deserved. Maybe Soros can give more "combat pay". The Left is the USA has never been punched back, since 1968 and Daley's cops.

eric said...

Michelle Fields has helped set women back a few decades with her assault charges. If what happened to her is assault, we have minized when people are actually assaulted.

If I were a victim of assault, I'd be pissed at people like Michelle Fields who make a mockery of the term.

Girl needs her safe space.

Rick said...

Mark said...
The guy who was punched did not do the pepper spraying.

If it was, that would be a whole different case, but the guy who was 'punched' did not respond. This wasn't self defense, don't play it off like it was.


The right to defend others is included under the legal tenet of "self" defense. So this argument is 100% wrong.

Bob Ellison said...

For "newsy", Eugene Daniels did a really shitsy narration.

Michael K said...

"Not sure I see the pepper spraying as defensible, especially of a minor."

The new tactic, advocated by people like Chuck, is "lawfare " against Trump. You attack a Trump supporter and when the retaliation comes, like it did where the BLM protestor struck a white 78 year old man, you get the Trump supporter arrested. Now, the Trump folks are figuring it out and pepper spray is legal.

The next step is to accuse someone of sexual assault. It doesn't matter if the video doesn't show it. You can always find a bruise.

The next step will be more violent attacks.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

...where Trump was holding his maiden rally...

You'd think Trump could afford better looking maidens...

Fabi said...

She was charging the crowd, Mark. Did you watch the video? The uncivilized piece of shit is lucky that she was only pepper sprayed. It's an easy case of self defense.

Bob Boyd said...

"The guy who was punched did not do the pepper spraying."

That's true. It was the guy to his left wearing a navy blue jacket and a red cap.

Watch the Daily News video. At 2:05-2:07 you can clearly see it.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Maybe you're not supposed to hit a woman because you'll start a feud with her resource guarding kinsmen.

madAsHell said...

attacking a minor

A minor? Then she's too young to vote, but willing to throw punches. I think you've been drinking the kool-aid.

Ann Althouse said...

The pepper spray is an overreaction. Don't we all agree about that?

What bothers me is the distorted presentation in the headlines and the first few paragraphs.

In some situations, persons on both sides of a confrontation may be committing crimes.

I think there should be some honesty up front about what she was doing — the hitting.

But the pepper spray response can't be supported. We can't go forward with everyone spraying anyone who grabs or smacks them. What if the reporter touched by Corey Lewandowski had sprayed him? What if Trump had sprayed her? There lies chaos.

There's some inappropriate touching, grabbing, and hitting that goes on when people are in public together. What do we want the rules to be?

Michael K said...

"the guy who was 'punched' did not respond. This wasn't self defense, don't play it off like it was."

Yes, HuffPo is all over this.

It's interesting that the lefties did not try to attack the Janesville rally after all the stuff they did the night before.

We'll see escalation in the war on Trump. Unless, Soros' money starts to run low.

Ann Althouse said...

"The guy who was punched did not do the pepper spraying."

No one is saying that, but yes, obviously, you are correct.

Rick said...

I'm connecting this incident with the San Francisco State dreadlocks confrontation

You should connect it to the Melissa Click Missouri protests also. She is also on video clearly initiating physical contact as an intimidation tactic while yelling "don't touch me". As I stated on the other thread this should be understood as a threat to file a false police report, which the Janesville girl followed through on.

Fabi said...

Very good point, Michael K. The professional agitators have added "sexual assault" -- an extraordinarily dangerous charge -- to their repertoire of hate, and it needs to be squashed.

mezzrow said...

I recall in the seventh grade there was a girl named Linda who would not stop punching me. If I even so much as looked back threateningly, she would shout "you can't hit a girl!" I understood from others that she resented me because I got better grades and was the annoying kid who had the answers most of the time.

She wasn't good looking enough to get away with that either. Pretty girls can play that and skate by on their looks, but this girl had a lot to learn. So did I. IIRC, she didn't come to any particular good end. I successfully avoided much further contact with her for the rest of my life and can't supply any details, since I don't know them.

I bet lots of guys can tell you the same story. That was all fifty years ago, too.

Human nature doesn't change much, even though the culture does. I hear Hillary is the official woman's candidate this time around. Just an observation.

tim maguire said...

A gentleman never hits a woman, no matter what. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the law. A woman initiating violence should be arrested just as a man would. Men defending themselves should be allowed to use reasonable force just as a woman would. And if Lewandowski used reasonable force to stop the reporter from groping Trump, that's fine too.* There is a bodyguard aspect to his job and he has to be allowed to do it.

*Just saying, "if." I have no opinion on whether this is the situation.

Bob Ellison said...

Leftist agitators try to provoke response. 1968 taught a lesson.

Anglelyne said...

In the accused's defense, the alleged victim does present a surface area large enough that avoiding brushing up against it in a crowd may be problematic.

From appearance and behavior I wouldn't have pegged her for 15, either, so playing up the "minor" angle is probably unlikely to arouse much sympathy.

Fabi said...

I don't agree that the pepper spray was an overreaction. The agitator was clearly not backing down and had already committed at least two assaults. I think the pepper spraying likely halted her escalating violence. She was obviously unhinged and dangerous.

Mark said...

Ann, I read people implying that escalation to pepper spray is acceptable 'self defense'.

I am glad you are willing to see both people escalating and causing a problem here, not just one. Cruel neutrality back in practice.

Fabi said...

Who started the assaults, Mark? Which were the actions and which were the reactions? Neutrality my ass.

Comanche Voter said...

You come to make trouble; and trouble happens. Who could have foreseen this? LOL

Sebastian said...

"how does that traditional model work in modern conditions of demanded equality" Assumes facts not in evidence. Modern conditions demand female privilege, not "equality." No equality in divorce proceedings, or sexual assault cases, or the Marines, or tennis, or Title IX, or equal pay for "equal work." The "demanded equality" is invariably for stuff that benefits women.

Dan Hossley said...

I'm troubled by your position on self defense. If a person is assaulted, he can't use pepper spray to disable the attacker? If a woman assaults a man, a man can never fight back? Why not? I mean "never" is a pretty big word.

Surely we can agree there are circumstances when it is acceptable, indeed desirable for a man to strike a woman. For example, a female suicide bomber? Isn't a good idea to whack them before they whack us?

You're on pretty shaky ground on this one.

Sofa King said...

I'm also not persuaded that the pepper spray is definitely an over-reaction. It is a highly effective way of stopping an unruly person without exposing that person or others to further injury. It's probably far safer than physical restraint.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

We can't go forward with everyone spraying anyone who grabs or smacks them. What if the reporter touched by Corey Lewandowski had sprayed him? What if Trump had sprayed her? There lies chaos.

Come on, Trump isn't going to pepper spray anyone, he has people to do that for him.

And yes, we can go forward spraying anyone who grabs or smacks them, what do you think pepper spray is for? Perhaps the resolution is for people to stop grabbing and smacking people.

Just sayin.

Amanda said...

What did this teenager do that caused such a response? Using pepper spray in this manner is assault and a massive overreaction to a person reaching toward you in a crowd where everyone is jostling or being jostled. If this is the new norm, then Trumpers and the perpetually aggrieved white males who support him, are pathetic creatures that are so threatened by a female being somewhat aggressive that they overreact with over the top violence. Good lord what a bunch of wussies.

Fabi said...

Andrew Branca from Legal Insurrection has a wonderful book concerning self defense. Highly recommended.

Fabi said...

Amanda hasn't watched the video but wants to pontificate nonetheless. Why am I not surprised.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

@Amanda

Thank you Amanda, your well reasoned, and totally non-biased comment fills me with hope for the future of this nation.

Amanda said...

I see this girl said she was groped first, then she responded by hitting out at the groper. So is it OK for your daughter to be groped? Would you tell your daughter she was wrong to defend herself? Groping is unwanted sexual touching.

Amanda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
M Jordan said...

Trump has regained any lost mojo. The Lewandowski thing helps him tremendously. The media, including Fox, tore like piranha into every negative thing they could on Trump this past week -- the retweet, the threat to "spill the beans" on HC, the Lewandowski charges. And that very reaction caused a huge reaction on the part of the Trump supporters and potential Trump supporters. We all remembered why we were for him in the first place.

I was living in Lithuania when the Benghazi attack happened. I watched the reaction to it on the Internet. I recall vividly how the web site Memeorandum exploded after Mitt put out his initial statement. It was like a demonic horde rising on command from Satan himself to attack. Mitt flinched. It could be argued this is why he ultimately lost to Obama.

Trump never flinches. He has stood up to the demonic horde time and time again, something not just rare in today's political circles, but truly nonexistent. He will win my vote, he will win your vote, and he will win the election for the reason alone.

Rick said...

Amanda said...
What did this teenager do that caused such a response?



It seems like just yesterday Amanda thought battery was a big deal. Today those against it are "wussies" and the only difference is who she hates and who she supports. I sense a consistent theme.

Meanwhile she has no words against false accusations of sexual assault. Of all the events in the scrum this is by far the worst.

Ann Althouse said...

"This wasn't self defense, don't play it off like it was."

There is a such thing as "defense of others."

Isn't that what Corey Lewandowski was doing?

In any event, I'm not seeing anyone defending the pepper spraying.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I'd like to see what you wussies would have to say if this girl was your daughter.

I'd say don't go to Trump rallies and try to provoke violence. Also, don't lie about being sexually assaulted.

Amanda said...

You're welcome Wrinkleman. That's what I'm here for, to show you neanderthals that we now don't assault women and then assault her some more after she defends herself. I'd like to see what you wussies would have to say if this girl was your daughter. Really it's disgusting to see how many of you are all in for abusing teenage girls because she won't tolerate unwanted touching and pushes back. No wonder Trump has a 74% disapproval rating with women.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I'm not seeing anyone defending the pepper spraying.

Several people on this thread are defending the pepper spraying. I am defending the pepper spraying. Don't want to get pepper sprayed, don't try to assault people.

If the "assault" does not warrant pepper spraying then perhaps it should not be classified as assault.

Paul said...

Sexual assault? In her dreams. That's one homely looking female with a lifetime of bitterness to look forward to and apparently jumping in with both feet.

Thorby said...

From Wikipedia, the definition of an agent provocateur. As noted in the article, Imperial Russia was famous for this tactic. From other sources, Joseph Stalin may have played this role prior to the revolution.

"An agent provocateur (French for "inciting agent") is a person who commits, or who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or rash act or falsely implicate them in partaking in an illegal act. An agent provocateur may be acting out of their own sense of duty or may be employed by the police or other entity to discredit or harm another group (such as a peaceful protest or demonstration) by provoking them to commit a crime, thereby undermining the protest or demonstration as a whole.

The proper plural form of the term adds an s to the end of both words, agents provocateurs. A female agent or spy is called an agente provocatrice."

Rick said...

Amanda said...
I see this girl said she was groped first, then she responded by hitting out at the groper. So is it OK for your daughter to be groped? Would you tell your daughter she was wrong to defend herself? Groping is unwanted sexual touching


Note the phrasing: first Amanda hides behind the girl (she says she was groped) but then immediately pivots to certainty by posing the hypothetical with that as a fact. In fact we already know the sexual assault accusation is false. There are three videos, one of which covers the exact time she claimed it occurred. Not only do the videos not show a sexual assault the person taking the video from two feet away confirms it never happened.

We're watching myth making in action, and it's not by accident. The evidence this is false is readily available but those trying to use false sexual assault charges as a weapon are charging ahead regardless. These are dangerous and disgusting people.

Amanda said...

"In any event, I'm not seeing anyone defending the pepper spraying."


"I'm also not persuaded that the pepper spray is definitely an over-reaction. It is a highly effective way of stopping an unruly person without exposing that person or others to further injury. It's probably far safer than physical restraint."


"I'm troubled by your position on self defense. If a person is assaulted, he can't use pepper spray to disable the attacker? If a woman assaults a man, a man can never fight back?"

"I don't agree that the pepper spray was an overreaction."

Fabi said...

Amanda claims to see the girl being groped? Hilarious! Time stamp, please.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Wrinkleman

So now we know, Amanda is in 3rd grade.

Thorby said...

My admiration for Trump's abilities as a 'master persuader', a la Scott Adams, grew leaps and bounds yesterday when I heard him repeatedly use the Corey story as a means to emphasize that he will not abandon his friends, and that he will defend the United States if he is elected.

Trump's new slogan, 'Leave no one behind.' I think this will sell. His opposition still has not brought in the proper 'bigger boat', a la Shark.

Henry said...

The police report is impressively factual.

Two persons concealed carried weapons, and two persons open carried weapons, all four were cooperative with law enforcement.

Interesting.

A male in the crown groped the 15 year girl, when she pushed him away; another person in the crown sprayed her. We are currently looking for two suspects, one for the sexual assault and one for the pepper spray.

The Police make an assertion of sexual assault. If the suspect is found, we may determine its truth. It might not be true, but I see no reason it must be false.

Henry said...

Trump's new slogan, 'Leave no one behind.'

Certainly better than "Leave my lying douchebag alone"

Fernandinande said...

Dude1394 said...
My brother was chivalrously stabbed with a kitchen fork while not touching his "lady wife". Then he was arrested.


Sounds about right.

Ann Althouse said...
The pepper spray is an overreaction. Don't we all agree about that?


No and obviously not. It caused the noxious little bitch to leave.

Brando said...

"I'm not seeing anyone defending the pepper spraying."

I can't see the video, so I can't say whether the pepper spraying was justified but if someone is physically attacking you it is absolutely justified (though using it in a crowded area is unwise as you're likely going to cause a lot of pain to innocent bystanders, so in those cases you had better really be in danger).

I don't know whether rallies are getting more violent this year or the media is just reporting it more this year, but things are starting to come to a head. Protesters know they can cause disruption and get in the news (and of course their side will make them out to be martyrs) so they are going to up the ante through the campaign cycle until someone actually gets killed at one of these things. Now would be a good time to call out the protesters on your own "side" to curb this behavior (the disruption, I mean--you have every right to show up, protest silently, or protest outside).

madAsHell said...

What do we want the rules to be?

Are we heading to 2nd amendment territory? Heinlein's "An armed society is a polite society".

Rules are for the little people.

Peter said...

"I see this girl said she was groped first, then she responded by hitting out at the groper. So is it OK for your daughter to be groped? Would you tell your daughter she was wrong to defend herself? Groping is unwanted sexual touching ..."

Because a (potentially self-serving) accusation simply must be taken as fact (else you, yes you, shall be accused of being "Neanderthal").

Henry said...

The Janesville Police Department seem to have done an admirable job through the entire spectacle.

Michael K said...

"I see this girl said she was groped first, then she responded by hitting out at the groper."

Yes, lies are so useful to the left, and lately to the "conservative" Trump haters.

I interviewed a young guy applying to the Marines yesterday. He was all through the process and then learned that a girl he knew in high school had accused him of "sexual assault."

The circumstances he described were as follows: The girl and he were on a school trip. They went to a private area away from the other kids and she gave him a blowjob. Later, they went back to the group and nothing further happened. We were discussing the other day this new practice among kids.

Anyway, after he applied and was accepted to the Marines, he learned of this "assault" charge when the local cops served a search warrant and required him to give a mouth swab for DNA.

He heard nothing further and had to go to the authorities to see if any charges were pending.

None were.

Case over except he had to find out all this out himself after learning of "charges." I asked him if he had left any semen on her and he said, "only in her mouth."

The 21st century relationship story. I'm not surprised Amanda is lying. It's what they are teaching these young girls.

Amanda said...

This incident loosely reminds me of men in Muslim countries who stone the woman who was raped, she somehow is seen as the guilty party. This happens in a misogynistic authoritarian ass backwards country.

The anger/aggression shown toward a woman/girl who is a possible victim of sexual assault is very troubling, in this modern country. Is this what we will see more of in a Trump run government? Men feeling justified in abusing women when they feel threatened by her in some ridiculous way?

EDH said...

"Who'd want to grope you anyway?"

Rick said...

Henry said...
The Police make an assertion of sexual assault. If the suspect is found, we may determine its truth. It might not be true, but I see no reason it must be false.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/03/30/after-alleged-groping-teen-trump-protester-pepper-sprayed-by-trump-supporter-outside-wisc-rally/


In the videos you can see no one touches her as she claimed. Also included:

Derek Hauger, the Wisconsin man who took widely shared video of the incident and posted it to YouTube, wrote that the man did not grope the girl, though.

“I was right next to this and saw the whole thing,” he wrote. “The man never touched her like she said. She was just looking for trouble.”

A second video, also taken by Hauger, captures a moment shortly before the incident.

In that video, the girl holds up a sign reading “DAMN DONALD. BACK AT IT AGAIN w/ THE WHITE SUPREMACY.” She and another female protester shout “black lives matter” as a much larger crowd of Trump supporters counters with chants of “all lives matter.”

At one point, a man in a Trump hat and sunglasses shouts, “Stop doing crime, blacks, stop doing crime.”

A third video captures the pepper-spray incident from a different angle and appears to show the man who sprayed the girl.


The police statement is clearly based solely on her accusation and shows their presumption of guilt. their bias is not even evidence much less proof.

Henry said...

The police statement is clearly based solely on her accusation and shows their presumption of guilt. their bias is not even evidence much less proof.

I'm sure they too will look at the video.

Ann Althouse said...

"In the videos you can see no one touches her as she claimed."

You can't see touching, but that doesn't me you can see that there is no touching.

As I said in the post, something could be happening outside of the frame.

Amanda said...

Now we hear insults toward this girl because she isn't the stereotypical beauty queen? Simply more aggression by perpetually aggrieved white males who feel threatened by females who defend themselves. Pathetic.

Ann Althouse said...

What a dirty trick it would be to stand there arguing with someone, jacking them up until they lose control and take a pop at you and then you let loose with a face-full of pepper spray.

That person with the pepper spray was at the ready.

We can't live like that.

Brando said...

Groping is a very specific thing--in common usage it means being pawed for sexual pleasure. It doesn't mean simply being touched--if a police officer grabs you to subdue you (say, if you're going on a rampage with a fork) that doesn't mean you've been "groped" even if while subduing you he accidentally or unavoidably handles your lady parts (or man parts, if you're a male fork-rampager).

Paul said...

"Simply more aggression by perpetually aggrieved white males who feel threatened by females who defend themselves."

Hilarious! That my friends is how you do propaganda. Her Soviet progenitors are beaming with pride.

Rick said...

Amanda said...
This incident loosely reminds me of men in Muslim countries who stone the woman who was raped, she somehow is seen as the guilty party.


What a coincidence. It reminds me of Muslim law also where regardless of either the facts or right and wrong the law is used to attack the political out-group.

Fen said...

"It's an interesting stereotype. Perhaps you support it. The man should never hit the woman, even if she is hitting him."

The current thinking is that the male deserves to defend himself, but only with proportional force. Don't knock her out if she barely slaps you. But if she tries to kick you in the balls, its okay to come down on her leg and break it.

Ann Althouse said...

"Now we hear insults toward this girl because she isn't the stereotypical beauty queen?"

What does that refer to?

Quote something. Off hand, I don't believe you. Who insulted her for not being a "stereotypical beauty queen"?

Could everyone make a special effort to tell it straight and stick to the facts?

I've put my "too much drama" tag on nearly every post today.

Try to be part of the solution not part of the problem. I'm talking to pro- and anti-Trump people.

AllenS said...

Put me down as pro pepper spraying.

Marty Johnson said...

A woman hits me, she is gonna get hit back twice as hard. End of story.

Brando said...

"What a dirty trick it would be to stand there arguing with someone, jacking them up until they lose control and take a pop at you and then you let loose with a face-full of pepper spray."

See, in that scenario it depends on what you mean by "take a pop at you." No matter what anyone says to you, it's just words--that doesn't excuse socking someone (and I don't care if it's two men, two women, or one of each).

Now, does taking a "pop" at someone justify their using pepper spray? Often it can. I had two strangers take several "pops" at me on the street in Baltimore when they wanted my wallet. I had no pepper spray but if I had you better believe I would have been justified in using it on them.

Paul said...

"That person with the pepper spray was at the ready.

We can't live like that."

Really? My wife carries a stun gun at the ready all the time, especially when she's in parking garages. Seems to me the Trump supporters know that these agitators might turn physical and they are well within their rights to defend themselves by legal means.

Fen said...

And Amando, your dick fell out of your dress again. Try tucking with duct tape or something. If you're going to pretend to be a woman so you can play your Sexist! card, at least keep your dick in your panties.

Brando said...

"The current thinking is that the male deserves to defend himself, but only with proportional force. Don't knock her out if she barely slaps you. But if she tries to kick you in the balls, its okay to come down on her leg and break it."

I agree, but I'd say that applies both ways. You can always defend yourself, and it should always be proportional. Someone slaps my face, I can slap back or restrain them, but I shouldn't be able to cave their head in with a baseball bat.

Amanda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...

"That person with the pepper spray was at the ready.

We can't live like that."

No, we should be passive no matter what insults they shout in our face. After all, she had to earn that money she was being paid to provoke retaliation.

Too bad Romney didn't have some pepper spray, or its equivalent, handy. No, I don't mean that literally. He could have said, "Candy who gave you those talking pints ?"

Amanda said...

"Quote something. Off hand, I don't believe you. Who insulted her for not being a "stereotypical beauty queen"?"
----------
"Who would want to grope you anyway?"@10:59 AM


"Sexual assault? In her dreams. That's one homely looking female with a lifetime of bitterness to look forward to and apparently jumping in with both feet."

3/30/16, 10:46 AM

rehajm said...

Amanda hasn't watched the video but wants to pontificate nonetheless.

Astroturfing is the practice of masking the sponsors of a message or organization (e.g., political, advertising, religious or public relations) to make it appear as though it originates from and is supported by grassroots participant(s).

Theranter said...

USA today:
"...a 15-year-old girl outside the venue was pepper-sprayed after striking another bystander, police said."


Janesville PD Press Release--any mention of the. Punch?:

"Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump held a rally at the Holiday Inn Express and Janesville Convention Center on Tuesday March 29, 2016 at 4:00 p.m. At the same time protesters gathered outside the Holiday Inn Express for a freedom of speech event.

"...The intent of the Janesville Police Department was to facilitate the constitutional rights of free speech and assembly in a safe and nonviolent environment. For the most part, we were successful.

...six protesters were arrested on charges of disorderly conduct, obstructing an officer, and trespass after refusing to leave the lobby...as part of an anti-Donald Trump protest. ...the group Showing Up for Racial Injustice. The group had locked themselves together inside of PVC piping before occupying the lobby area. Approximately 60 other protesters that had entered the lobby left the hotel at the request of police.

Over 350 officers from 20 different agencies were assigned in traffic control, perimeter control, crowd control, and tactical support.

...Two persons concealed carried weapons, and two persons open carried weapons, all four were cooperative with law enforcement.

A 15 year girl from Janesville was peppered sprayed in the crowd by a non-law enforcement person. A 19 year old woman from Madison received 2nd hand spray as well. Both individuals received medical attention at local hospitals. A male in the crown groped the 15 year girl, when she pushed him away; another person in the crown sprayed her. We are currently looking for two suspects, one for the sexual assault and one for the pepper spray.

...Two suspicious packages were found, we were able to investigate them both and they were cleared.

A vehicle was left abandoned in the middle of the street. There was concern there was an explosive device in the vehicle. While law enforcement personnel were processing the vehicle, the vehicle owner returned to the vehicle, they had left the vehicle in the street to get food. No explosive device was found."

Rick said...

Ann Althouse said...
As I said in the post, something could be happening outside of the frame.


There are three videos and an independent eye witness statement. The crowd is focused on the pair because the argument is already happening. But none react to a sexual assault? Not one steps between them to end what would have been an unbelievable escalation to an outrageous act? Not one pushes the man back? Ridiculous!

This is how Rolling Stone ended up publishing the UVA rape story. Since we can't prove it wrong with metaphysical certainty we must pretend it's reasonable to believe it happened.

hombre said...

Funny.
Unfortunate.

We're in some trouble.

Amanda said...

"She wasn't good looking enough to get away with that either Pretty girls can play that and skate by on their looks, but this girl had a lot to learn."

Brando said...

"No, we should be passive no matter what insults they shout in our face. After all, she had to earn that money she was being paid to provoke retaliation."

In the Professor's example, it's the person who "popped" the would-be pepper sprayer who wasn't content to leave it at insults. Just because someone insults you, you don't have the right to "pop" them. Basic rules of civilization.

hombre said...

The Trumpists and the protesters are different sides of the same coin.

We are no longer "all Americans." A substantial percentage of us are something else.

Paul said...

"The #NeverTrumps and the protesters are different sides of the same coin."

FIFY

Mary Beth said...

She was rude and antagonistic, but attacking a minor never proves your point.

Be sure to card people who are punching at you before you defend yourself.

Do a lot of minors go to political rallies without their parents?

Michael K said...

"Just because someone insults you, you don't have the right to "pop" them. Basic rules of civilization."

Well it's "turn the other cheek" but that is getting old after watching the protestors attack spectators.

I guess you weren't paying attention.

Her "insult" was a blow to the face. If he had hit her back, he probably would have been arrested and the purpose of her action would have been successful.

These people are being paid to do this.

Virgil Hilts said...

I don't defend the use of pepper spray, but do not see why this isolated incident should reflect negatively on the Trump campaign. A thought problem -- if you looked like this young woman and cared about your health and safety would you be better of (i) doing exactly what this woman did and taking your chances at a Trump rally, or (ii) going to a Sanders rally and into a rowdy crowd carrying BLM posters, start screaming ALM into their faces from 12 inches away, and then punch an older man in the face.

Amanda said...

In this video she is heard saying "You touched my chest!"and pointing to her chest, after that she strikes out.

Drago said...

Amanda: "This incident loosely reminds me of men in Muslim countries who stone the woman who was raped, she somehow is seen as the guilty party."

LOL

Really, you can't make this stuff up.

It's almost "chuck-like" in it's quality.

Drago said...

Amanda: "In this video she is heard saying "You touched my chest!"and pointing to her chest, after that she strikes out."

Women never lie about sexual assault.

Serial sexual assaulter Bill Clinton and destroyer of sexual assault victims Hillary hardest hit.

And chuck too, of course.

Brando said...

"I guess you weren't paying attention. Her "insult" was a blow to the face. If he had hit her back, he probably would have been arrested and the purpose of her action would have been successful."

As I noted above, I haven't seen the video yet, and assumed by "insult" you meant verbal. If she hits someone, they are justified in hitting back. But in the Professor's example, she was talking about the pepper sprayer insulting someone until that someone "pops" them--absolutely unacceptable to initiate violence no matter how badly annoyed or insulted you are.

As for her being paid, that's irrelevant--I wouldn't approve of her smacking people even if she was doing it for free.

Amanda said...

"A thought problem -- if you looked like this young woman and cared about your health and safety would you be better of..."

What is this supposed to mean? "if you looked like this young woman"? That she is rightfully subject to more violence because she may be unattractive somehow?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Let's be honest. Equality means giving women whatever they want.
When they want to be treated as equal it means treating them as equal.
When they want special treatment it means giving them special treatment.

We can pretend all we like that the law is gender-neutral, the rules mean actual equal treatment, etc. But look at the facts--look at actual domestic violence cases/prosecutions by gender, or contested custody cases, or any of dozens of other measures.

We've always given women special treatment in the form of giving them whatever they wanted, it's just that in the past we didn't lie about it--we explicitly said we were deferring to/protecting/supporting/looking out for the interests of women. We still do all of that, of course, but we have to say that it's actually just equal treatment.

Being made to say things that aren't true is a defining characteristic of the Orwellian authoritarianism we're all supposed to hate, but it's also the essence of much of "PC." Make of that what you will.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Also, as a side note: What a fuckin' mouth on a 15 year old girl.

Michael K said...

"As I noted above, I haven't seen the video yet,"

Look.

holdfast said...

This is just a tiny taste of what the eventual GOP nominee will face. It will be a bit more intense if the nominee is Trump, but don't think the Left won't go apesh*t against Cruz, Rubio, Ryan, whoever. Remember, any prominent Republican automatically = Hitler.
Mitt was a RINO squish from Mass., and then still called him Hitler.

I don't like Trump and don't want him to be the nominee, but I fear/suspect that he is the only one who has the brazenness/fortitude/dumb stubbornness to stand up to these Lefty tactics.

Renee said...

What is up with the person holding the "Black Lives Matter" sign who is behaving completely oblivious to the situation???? If the young lady with classes was assaulted in that manner, put down your sign and focus your attention on your fellow protester who has just been victimized!!! The sign holder just had a blank look on her face.

I hope there is video whether or not there was intentional groping. I don't want to saying she is fabrication the groping incident, but she seemed terribly aggressive on the man with the white hair to the point other bystanders were holding her back so she wouldn't punch back.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I'm getting closer to believe there are professional agitators at these campaigned.

It is nuts. I fear they are doing this to prevent people from wanting to attended an otherwise peaceful rally. FYI I'm not a Trump supporter.

Michael K said...

"Amanda: "In this video she is heard saying "You touched my chest!"and pointing to her chest, after that she strikes out."

A powerful imagination is very useful on the left. You never have to worry about facts.

Drago said...

Michael K: "Look."

Narrative and sentencing first.

Facts much later. Much.

Renee said...

Not for nothing but the young lady totally sounds like she was an extra in the movie "Idiocracy".

Rick said...

Virgil Hilts said...
[I] do not see why this isolated incident should reflect negatively on the Trump campaign.


This is bigger than the Trump campaign. This shows us who the political left is. And recall they run virtually all our institutions, government and NGO alike.

Rick said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said...There's some inappropriate touching, grabbing, and hitting that goes on when people are in public together. What do we want the rules to be?

Did you not read the 300+ comments in the thread yesterday, Professor? We decided this!
The rules are if you're touched without your consent that's battery. The rule is if anyone touches you without your consent you charge them with battery, and the authorities act on that. That's the rule! What room for debate is there? Meade and others helpfully provided the text of the relevant law. Intentionally touching anyone else without their consent is a crime. The rule is you press charges. That's the rule.

Rick said...

Amanda said...
In this video she is heard saying "You touched my chest!"and pointing to her chest, after that she strikes out.


In the video at the website below "the woman says something about Goldstein touching her, when clearly she is the one making the physical contact."

http://kron4.com/2016/03/29/viral-video-of-prompts-investigation-at-sfsu/

It's almost like activists are trained to make these sorts of claims to further their political agenda.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Oh also the rule is, if you're a woman (or if you identify as a female person), to claim to have been touched or groped first. MAYBE a camera will show that no one actually groped you, but that won't matter to anyone. Once you've made that claim you can do whatever you want--it's all legal at that point since you're a sexual assault/battery victim and you're just defending your person.

Drago said...

Virgil Hilts: "[I] do not see why this isolated incident should reflect negatively on the Trump campaign."

Have we already forgotten that the left accused Romney of murder by giving a women cancer?

If somehow Cruz upends Trump and becomes the nominee, he and his backers too will be labeled as violent?

Why? Because there is no Todd Akin this year, nor Barack Obama, nor "binders full of women", nor "47%", and the left needs something else to gin up the street-level outrage for voter turnout.

damikesc said...

P.S. I was at a hockey game one time, it was an exhibition game called Bud-Lite hockey nite. There was a fight in the stands that was pretty entertaining. The girlfriend of one of the guy who was getting bested by the other guy started pounding on the guy her boyfriend was fighting. The guy turned around and decked her with one punch and she hit the bleachers with a loud thud. Silence. The whole crowd just stopped in amazement.

Personally, I have no beef with the punch there. Woman wanted to get physical. The dude decided to get physical.

As the saying goes, "Don't want none, don't start none"

The pepper spray is an overreaction. Don't we all agree about that?

I don't. Some random person, male or female, is willing to try and throw punches. You have zero idea if they are armed or not. You're not required to wait to be assaulted with an unknown level of force.

I recall in the seventh grade there was a girl named Linda who would not stop punching me. If I even so much as looked back threateningly, she would shout "you can't hit a girl!" I understood from others that she resented me because I got better grades and was the annoying kid who had the answers most of the time.

Had a girl I was leaving decide to become really violent as I left. And since I wanted to leave, I had to sit there and take it. When the cops got called, they verified there were zero marks on her and plenty on me...so she was arrested. Last thing I heard from her was the beg me to tell them we were just playing.

Yeah, that wasn't happening.

What did this teenager do that caused such a response?

Throwing punches.

Using pepper spray in this manner is assault and a massive overreaction to a person reaching toward you in a crowd where everyone is jostling or being jostled.

She clearly threw punches. The proportional response would've been to punch her back.

She should be glad he didn't respond proportionally.

If this is the new norm, then Trumpers and the perpetually aggrieved white males who support him, are pathetic creatures that are so threatened by a female being somewhat aggressive that they overreact with over the top violence. Good lord what a bunch of wussies.

So it's a man's job to ACCEPT punches from women?

Hardly.

I won't tolerate it from my wife. Some anonymous chick? Screw that. Punch at me or my kids and I'll retaliate.

The anger/aggression shown toward a woman/girl who is a possible victim of sexual assault is very troubling

Requesting evidence of this "sexual assault" outside of "she said so" would be lovely. Until then, we'll deal with the demonstrable assault she did commit. Women don't have a "right" to be believed. You need a track record of honesty to be believed.

Men feeling justified in abusing women when they feel threatened by her in some ridiculous way?

Women seem to feel free to abuse men (most domestic violence cases start with the woman assaulting the man) with no justifiable reason. Perhaps it's time that lessons got taught.

And for people who say that words aren't sufficient provocation, if a white dude walks into a BLM gathering and just shouts the "N" word repeatedly...he'll get assaulted. Viciously. And the press will take the mob's side over his because he was an asshole.

Amanda said...

The name of the man who she accuses of groping her is Dan Crandall of Milton, WI., not Goldstein.

Learn how to hyperlink.

David said...

An agent provocateur (French for "inciting agent") is a person who commits, or who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or rash act or falsely implicate them in partaking in an illegal act. An agent provocateur may be acting out of their own sense of duty or may be employed by the police or other entity to discredit or harm another group . . . .
A political organization or government may use agents provocateurs against political opponents. The provocateurs try to incite the opponent to do counterproductive or ineffective acts to foster public disdain or provide a pretext for aggression against the opponent.

--Wikipedia

Virgil Hilts said...

Amanda, by "looked like this young woman" I meant young, white, aggressive etc. -- I wanted the thought experiment to involve the same person. I don't think her "attractiveness" is relevant to anything. Do people actually think she was pepper sprayed for her looks? I don't.

traditionalguy said...

OMG, another Trump goon? That's been the story du jour since Lewendowski was yesterday's pattern of Trump ordered Violence against women.

It is a necessary Hillary Campaign Meme. It also a necessary counter to the Miss Wisconsin 2005's emotional moment yesterday that has been totally suppressed by the CNN, Fox and MSNBC Defense of WOMAN power teams.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said...We can't live like that.

We can't?!? We do now! That's the whole tactic, minus the pepper spray, being used by the Left now and in fact for decades! That's one of the main ideas of disrupting a rally--you make yourself so obnoxious (wearing a Klan hood, for instance, and shouting obscenities into the faces of others) that someone reacts/overreacts, pops you one, and BOOM! it's a media story about how violent the rallygoers are. That's the whole point, to provoke a response that the Media will sympathetically spin.
The Media doesn't report on the hundreds of people who have their lives disrupted when Leftist assholes take over intersections or shut down roads or buildings--they report on how mean the cops are when they finally haul those assholes away.
Look at the videos you yourself shot during protests! The jerks got right in your face, blew whistles and horns, shouted and blocked your way...much of that was done to try and provoke you to respond. If you had pushed a person away you can be sure they'd have pressed charges. That's the point! They win either way: if you keep your cool then they win by showing you they can do whatever they want right in your face and you can't stop them, and if you stop them they win by charging you with a crime.

This isn't new! Your 1960s protest pals pioneered this kind of thing. Is it unfair? Of course it's unfair, and it's covered in the Media in a horribly unfair way. That, also, is not new! Maybe it seems new because everyone has a camera to capture this shit happening now, but it's not new.

Also? The Media doesn't care. The Left can protest and shut things down and do pretty much whatever they want to people they oppose--the headline will at worst be "mostly peaceful protest marred by isolated incidents" or some bullshit. Hell, the POLICE statement in this case says she was groped--they've already decided that's what happened. The biased nature of the reporting bothers you? Ok, but do you think that's some new development or in any way unusual?

Fabi said...

It's been over an hour and Amanda still hasn't been able to provide the time stamp in the video where she claims to have seen the girl being groped! Lulz

Renee said...

From PBS

"Janesville Police Sgt. Aaron Ellis said Wednesday.

Ellis said the girl told police she punched a man who groped her, and another man then pepper-sprayed her. The girl and a 19-year-old woman standing next to her were treated and released from a hospital, police said.

Ellis said the girl could face charges for punching the man, identified by the Wisconsin State Journal as Dan Crandall, of Milton.

“I didn’t touch her,” Crandall, a Trump supporter, told the newspaper. “She started to challenge why I was at the Trump rally since I was a grown man. I told her I was at the Trump rally because I was a grown man and I cared about my country.”

Crandall said someone standing behind him used the pepper spray. That person could be charged with illegal discharge of pepper spray since he was not using it in self-defense, Ellis said."

Paul said...

I'm not so sure they are paid protesters. I'm sure some are, transportation supplied, signs, etc., but these lefties are so spun up on pure hate that they don't need any other motivation. I know some lefties that provided with trigger words like Bush or Trump become apoplectic and spiral into a murderous rage. For free.

Rick said...

Amanda said...
The name of the man who she accuses of groping her is Dan Crandall of Milton, WI., not Goldstein.

Learn how to hyperlink.


The link was to the san Francisco State incident Althouse linked to demonstrating the tactic is widely used.

Learn how to think.

Big Mike said...

We can't live like that.

@Althouse, back in 2008 Barack Obama was campaigning by setting one group against another, all the while claiming he would be a "uniter." If you looked at what people do and stop paying attention to their worthless words ... Well, in a tiny way you contributed to this world we live in, now enjoy it!

HoodlumDoodlum said...

How has no one used the phrase "fighting words" yet?
That's the Left's favorite, by the way--if they hit first in a confrontation like this it's due to "fighting words" and they're blameless.
If they're hit first then whatever they said or did doesn't matter, they're the victims.

It's what you might call a very tidy double standard.

Amanda said...

Virgil,
No, I don't think she was pepper sprayed for her looks. I think that perhaps there is some acceptance among males that pretty girls can "get away with" aggression toward males, while homely females ought to be especially careful how they act in male company.


"She wasn't good looking enough to get away with that either. Pretty girls can play that and skate by on their looks, but this girl had a lot to learn." - 10:10AM

Paul said...

And now I know some righties like that too! I will no longer self identify as a conservative after seeing the shenanigans of the #NeverTrumps.

Rick said...

Paul said...
I'm not so sure they are paid protesters. I'm sure some are, transportation supplied, signs, etc., but these lefties are so spun up on pure hate that they don't need any other motivation.


Many are "paid" in the sense they are hired because of their activism. Do you think Melissa Click was hired because she knew something interesting about media?

For those professionally inclined college activism is essentially an extended job interview.

Theranter said...

"I wonder if she takes steroids... That could explain the aggressive, out-of-control physical acting out"

Chemical forms of birth control contain steroids. Could be at 15 (she looks twice that age) she's on one of them.

Combine that steroid possibility with the wavering hormone levels of a 15y.o., + lefty indoctrination that breeds sheer hate and intolerance (and a continual adrenaline bolus from incessantly 'being on high alert' for un-PC words and actions), + the weird power of crowds, and add a dash of financial incentive, and these types of things are bound to happen.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Who wants to take bets on whether Dan Crandall presses charges against this poor little lady?

This is part of the problem. The Left relies on the decency of the non-Left--they count on the fact that they can be as wild and unfair as they like and the response will be composure and fairness in return.

She feels like it's ok to punch the old guy in part because she knows he's not going to punch her back. They feel like they can disrupt and shut down events in part because they know no one's going to do the same to them.

Fuck that. He needs to press charges. She would 100% press charges against him if he had pushed or tried to punch her. What's the Alinksy line, make the enemy live up to their own rules?

Fine. The Left's rule is that any time you're able you must press charges. She committed battery, he must press charges. It's a hell of a thing to start thinking of your own fellow citizens as "enemies" instead of just temporary opponents, but that's how the Left rolls and that's how the rest of us have to start thinking, too.

I'd bet he won't, though. He'll have compassion, he'll have empathy, he'll try to think the best of her. He's probably a really nice guy. That, of course, is how the Left wins.

jr565 said...

"The young woman is pepper sprayed, which looks terrible, but she's also seen smacking or trying to smack a man on the head."

the media will always report the pepper spray incident at a Trump rally but not the reason she was pepper sprayed. If she is in fact smacking people, then YES pepper spray the shi*t out of her.
I'm not a Trump supporter by any stretch. But its quite clear that much of the violence is being brought in by agitators who do stuff like smack people in the head. And then get pepper sprayed. Or walk around in KKK hood and then get punched. (or rather talking sh*t while your girlfriend walks around with a KKK hood on). The protesters are the ones engaged in the violence.
Trump is simply saying if you show up and act this way we are not going to treat you with kids gloves as much as other candidates might.

Renee said...

So if I witness a person punching another person, I can't pepper spay that individual to neutralize the situation with minimal injury to the aggressor?

Again I'm wary of the sexual assault claim, because the fellow poster holding friend just kept on holding her sign.... If my fellow protester was harmed in such a manner. Put down the sign, her life matters too!

I might actually believe her claim if it wasn't for the lack of reaction from the sign holder.

n.n said...

The rules of chivalry apply to women who behave as ladies.

The rules establishing treatment of children requires respect of elders.

The rules established by female chauvinism require equal treatment.

The traditional order breaks down in a regressive society with an established liberal or pro-choice religion.

Phunctor said...

OK, I'll defend the pepper spraying. The pepper spraying was fine. She had just at least attempted battery, and was observably a threat. If she hadn't learned that attempting violence could have personally unpleasant consequences, it was time.

Renee said...

Hoodlum,

Do you think they utilize underage minors for a reason to agitate?

AllenS said...

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun” -- B H Obama

“If they throw a punch, we use pepper spray” -- Trump supporter

Bay Area Guy said...

The Left has been taught by college idiots that it's acceptable to disrupt a speaker with whom you disagree.

The Left has been taught by feminists that its women should be fearless and confrontational.

The Left has been taught that make-up and earrings and looking "pretty" is no longer necessary for women, because it was designed to serve Male predatory interests.

This story hits the trifecta!

Jonathan Graehl said...

"A teenage girl" white knights: do you want to live in a world where you can be attacked by roving bands of untouchable teenagers? Serious question. If you're feeling generous, sure, subdue/defend/flee without hitting back. After all, a woman is on average half your upper-body strength. But on the other hand, we're *all* equally able to refrain from violence*. You attack, you deserve a commensurate counterattack. This is the only practicable principle.

* part of your responsibility to avoid violence is to know what situations could cause you to become uncontrollably enraged, and avoid those situations. some schizophrenics learn to live productive, murder-free lives while experiencing uncomfortable hallucinations. these 'protestors' (if they're not just doing it for $60) should do the same.

Drago said...

Renee: "So if I witness a person punching another person, I can't pepper spay that individual to neutralize the situation with minimal injury to the aggressor?"

It depends.

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the republican party or any conservative/libertarian group?

If "yes" to either, was the individual you pepper-sprayed a leftist?

Guilty!

Did the leftist initiative physical contact?

Irrelevant!

Amanda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Levi Starks said...

The 14 yo girl was definitely played, by both the cause she thinks she's furthering, and her supposed attackers. She is fortunate to have learned such a valuable lesson so early in life. She owes all parties involved a debt of gratitude.
In fact every time she re tells the story of her harrowing experience she should be required to send a residual check to the other actors.

Drago said...

Amanda:
1) "Two more videos showing the altercation. She confronts the white haired man accusing him several times of touching her chest, he then raises his hands and with a smirk on his face and denies touching her.

2) ????

3)Trump supporters are heard cheering, clapping and yelling "yeah!" and "good job! After she is pepper sprayed".

4) Profits!

Jonathan Graehl said...

Amanda, are you ever of any use to another human being? Because I don't see it, here. Do you just like complaining that people are unfair to ugly women? How are you going to teach your children to be strong if you keep this up?

Rick said...

Renee said...
So if I witness a person punching another person, I can't pepper spay that individual to neutralize the situation with minimal injury to the aggressor?


It depends on whether you see that person as a credible threat. Given his reaction the person attacked didn't think so. To all appearances this person was mature enough to reach his own conclusions and the circumstances support it, so I think it's out of line for someone else to impose their own judgement. I think it's more likely the spray was political retaliation for her disruption. It's not credible to believe he was scared of harm in a supportive crowd. It's more credible that environment encouraged overreaction.

Amanda said...

Two more videos of the altercation. The girl is heard several times accusing the white haired man of touching her chest. He then raises his hands and denies touching her. She then strikes him. Someone else then pepper sprays her. After she is pepper sprayed Trump supporters are heard, cheering, clapping, yelling" yeah!" and "good job!".

There were witnesses there on both sides of the dispute who will testify to what they saw, no doubt.

Michael K said...

"That's the whole point, to provoke a response that the Media will sympathetically spin. "

Yes and I believe that the leaders are paid. Not all but I doubt suicide bombers are paid, either. You get true believers excited and they will do anything, especially the magic believers in Bernie.

This is a tactic that is analogous to ISIS and the Belgian bombers. Do something outrageous and then harvest the hate after the reaction.

The Muslims are using terror but that will come with the Trump protestors. We have already seen it in Ferguson and Baltimore. It will be in Cleveland by the convention.

Read Richard Fernandez on why this is done.

He understands that young people have empty heads and why. That was done on purpose to fill them with Marxism. Some nastier people have figured out how to do it better even than the Marxists.

It will get worse, much worse, by the election.

Theranter said...

Another video of the incident:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLNxwX7r4A5565JsIVBKZNGX2P6enPkV_t&params=EAEYATgBSAFYAmILcWdfY3VPREY1clVoAA%253D%253D&v=TA1S0KQD2W8&mode=NORMAL

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...
"The pepper spray is an overreaction. Don't we all agree about that?"

Absolutely not. There are a group of women who are initiating violence and using false accusations to intimidate and destroy people they don't like. As an employer I have had all of my problems with young women who don't work, have to have their phones taken away during work, and then sue you when they are fired for not working. Some throw in sexual harassment charges.

They are destroying the social fabric of this country. It is impossible to stay in business and hire a female under the age of 30 much less women like this example. Most of them are good but a solid double digit percentage are looking for a reason to sue you. This girl got pepper sprayed. Is that worse than the men that are getting charged falsely with battery/assault?

Michael K said...

"Do you just like complaining that people are unfair to ugly women?"

She may have a serious interest in that subject.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Amanda said...

There were witnesses there on both sides of the dispute who will testify to what they saw, no doubt.

Unfortunately there are also "witnesses" who will testify to what they want you to believe they saw, no doubt.

Renee said...

Wouldn't it be really weird if the pepper spray guy was really a leftist activist and it was a cue to spray the teen girl that punched the white haired man.

Seriously the whole thing seems so orchestrated.

Michael K said...

"This girl got pepper sprayed. Is that worse than the men that are getting charged falsely with battery/assault?"

Fortunately for the young Marine I saw yesterday, the girl apparently swallowed the evidence.

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

"In any event, I'm not seeing anyone defending the pepper spraying."

I am. She assaulted an old man. If I didn't have pepper spray and she attacked an old man near me I would use my hands. It is absolutely fucking idiocy to let women think they are above all responsibility for their actions.

These women are a cancer on society. They produce nothing but misery and hatred. They should be shipped to Afghanistan to see how women are treated in countries I didn't protect.

Mark said...

Achilles tries to blame it all on under 30 year old women .... but don't you dare claim Republicans have a war on women!

He just has a war with 15% of women. Not all, please note.

Amanda said...

Blogger Jonathan Graehl said...
"Amanda, are you ever of any use to another human being? Because I don't see it, here. Do you just like complaining that people are unfair to ugly women?"

What an utterly ignorant comment. The girl's looks should have nothing to do with how people treat her. And as for being of use to other people, I've probably saved more lives than you've helped create.


I Callahan said...

Nice snark, Mark, but pointless nonetheless. Got anything of substance?

Michael K said...

"He just has a war with 15% of women. Not all, please note."

No, just the ones who are useless as employees. I'm sure you have never had any experience with employees.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Amanda said...Amanda said...
Two more videos of the altercation. The girl is heard several times accusing the white haired man of touching her chest. He then raises his hands and denies touching her. She then strikes him.


So what you're saying is that this woman struck that guy? Struck him intentionally and when he wasn't touching or attacking him (his hands were raised)? You're saying she's guilty of assault & battery? Ok, Amanda, I'll take your word for it--I guess we both hope he presses charges and that she's convicted for that.

It is nice to agree.

Michael K said...

"I've probably saved more lives than you've helped create. "

Amanda the Bernie supporter saves lives !

Regale us, Amanda.

Amanda said...

Michael K, based on your picture, I'd say you wouldn't have ever had a chance, my husband makes you look like a troll.

Amanda said...

Nope Micahel K, that's about as much info as to what I do for a living that you'll get. Don't be a creep as well as a jerk.

Mark said...

I Callahan, perhaps you should ask Achilles what of substance he is contributing?

Yes Michael K, troll away. You and Achilles are old angry white men whose time has passed and you refuse to believe it.

Enjoy being the brunt of jokes for the rest of your days.

Michael said...

I have been watching some old movies, black and whites, classics. Amazing how often the women got slugged in those days. Slugged in the jaw, slapped, pushed. Amazing that we lived like that back in the days the left pines for.

Henry said...

In my experience, that's the kind of tussle you break up or shrug off, which was pretty much what was happening until pepper spray hero jumped in.




Amanda said...

Michael,
"The left pines for the days" when women were abused by men? What are you smoking? I think some here pine for the ways in which the Mideastern culture treats women. Sorry, not going to fly in this country.

Drago said...

Achilles: "I am. She assaulted an old man. If I didn't have pepper spray and she attacked an old man near me I would use my hands. It is absolutely fucking idiocy to let women think they are above all responsibility for their actions."

"As Good As It Gets"
Q: How do you write women so well?
A: I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9_wfkYjfo

Drago said...

Amanda: "I think some here pine for the ways in which the Mideastern culture treats women."

Lefty takes time out from defending horrifically misogynistic Middle Eastern cultures and importing hundreds of thousands of these backwards mentalities into the US to falsely accuse those who stand athwart such thinking and actions of that very misogyny.

But hey, in a good way, don't ya know?

Achilles said...

Mark said...
"Achilles tries to blame it all on under 30 year old women .... but don't you dare claim Republicans have a war on women!

He just has a war with 15% of women. Not all, please note."

Of course you cannot deal with what I am saying honestly. It is the women that act like this little harridan who are ruining it for all of us. They are hurting other young women more than anyone else.

To lump all women in with these SJW losers and parasites is sexist and disgusting. But progressives have always been the racists and sexists throughout history.

I will just pencil in Mark as a misogynist until he can better explain his sexist remarks.

Drago said...

Mark: "You and Achilles are old angry white men whose time has passed and you refuse to believe it."

If the narrative fails, change topics, STAT!

HoodlumDoodlum said...

How is "you'll all be dead soon and that's good" not "eliminationist rhetoric?"
Or is that ok now?
The frickin' rules, they change so quickly!

Drago said...

Mark: "Enjoy being the brunt of jokes for the rest of your days."

And there you have it.

Shorter Mark: the faster we get rid of all this western civ stuff the better off we'll all be!

Phunctor said...

"We can't live like that."

I reserve the natural right to cause assaultive enemies to regret their actions.

"Nemo me lacessit impune". The Windsor family has it right.

Achilles said...

Mark said...

"I Callahan, perhaps you should ask Achilles what of substance he is contributing?"

Unlike you I actually respect women. I have done more to fight for women's rights in 10 minutes than you and Amanda combined. I think they are smart and capable of acting like civilized adults who take responsibility for their actions. I volunteered for the Army in large part to fight barbarity and the repression of women. I fought actual repression.

You think women are emotionally uncontrollable sexbots who need free birth control and abortions and the freedom to lash out violently at men with no responsibility. According to you women should be free to lie and make false accusations.

Only the stupid ones fall for what you are selling.

Harold said...

"The pepper spray is an overreaction. Don't we all agree about that?"

Answer: No. Neither would tasering be. Deadly force would be an over reaction.

"In any event, I'm not seeing anyone defending the pepper spraying."

Except for people in the comment thread....

Liberals are the brownshirts in this campaign. As they always are. Shutting down debate, silencing voices they don't want heard. Instigating violence. All the while screaming that it's the other side doing all that. Doesn't matter if the're 14 year old girls or Monica Lewinsky's ex-boyfriends wife; they feel they should not be held accountable in any way for their actions, and anyone who dares to oppose them should be punished.

Amanda said...

"Unlike you I actually respect women. I have done more to fight for women's rights in 10 minutes than you and Amanda combined."

Trump says,
"No one loves women more than I do, I'll take good care of women"

Fabi said...

Let's not forget how the left deals with campaign protestors:

"Don't tase me, bro!"

President-Mom-Jeans said...

"Nope Micahel K, that's about as much info as to what I do for a living that you'll get"

Looks like Inga is claiming to be a nurse again, saving all those lives and all.

That stupid bint deserved to get some pepper spray in the face and a whole lot more. Throw a punch, all bets are off.

Kyzernick said...

My friend and I were at a concert at a local bar, and his GF got attacked by another chick who thought she was someone else. The chick grabbed the GF's hair and started hitting her in the face and neck. My friend hauled off and cocked her right in the face with the most epic right cross I've ever seen, and this chick just folded like an origami swan. It was beautiful.

I feel like I would have held the button down even longer on that pepper spray can if I'd been holding it, all the while hoping that the crazy slag had a fatal allergy to capsaicin. I live by jungle rules. If you intentionally hit me, I'm hitting you back and I'm hitting with every ounce of strength I can muster. My objective, my sole objective, will be to knock your head off of your goddamn shoulders. Failing that, as long as you stay down while I stroll away, you're good. The moment you look like you're getting back up, I'm kicking you in the face until the breathing is ragged or stopped. Fuck politeness, and fuck special snowflakes who assume that owning a fishy vag is enough to keep me from retaliating. Imma hit you like it's the last punch I've ever thrown. Don't fuck with a cantankerous Polack. Or his charming and lovely wife.

Amanda said...


"Let's not forget how the left deals with campaign protestors:

"Don't tase me, bro!""

Who did the tasing? The rally goers or the police?

Kyzernick said...

Phunctor at 1:32 has it 100% correct.

"I reserve the natural right to cause assaultive enemies to regret their actions."

Assuming they live to feel the regret. Anyone who's ever been jumped or attacked ought to feel the same way. Schenectady was not a nice town to grow up in, and I'd need to remove a shoe and sock to depict the number of times I've been attacked, alone or in a group, before I was even an adult.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Where are this girl's parents, why was she present in such a wildly age-inappropriate setting, why does she have such a filthy mouth, why wasn't she off doing something suitable for a high school freshman like homework chores or band practice?

Fabi said...

Glad you think it's okay for the cops to tase and arrest a peaceful protestor, Amanda. I'll make a note of that.

Amanda said...

"After she was pepper sprayed, a Trump supporter told her: “You goddamn communist nigger-lover, get the hell out of here!"

Nice.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Well, I think the pepper spray was an overreaction and that the person who sprayed it should face charges.
I also think the woman who got sprayed should face charges for throwing some punches.
I think the available evidence shows her claim to have been groped to be utter bullshit (especially in context) but I don't rule out the possibility that additional evidence will show something else. I'm pretty darn sure she didn't get groped, though.

I will also admit to laughing at the video. Look, you're shouting curses in other people's faces, you're out of control and throwing punches, and someone you didn't see pepper sprays you in the face from inches away? That...that's funny. A lot of humor is based on a sudden unexpected turn of events, and I for one didn't expect that--she certainly didn't either!

I don't think that makes me a misogynist but I'm sure others have different opinions on that.
It does make me feel bad in a way, that this is what our nation is now, but probably that's just latent sentimentality kicking in--we ain't been a Norman Rockwell nation for quite some time, and if non-Left people waking up to that fact means things get coarser and more violent as a result I guess I'm resigned to that reality.

Achilles said...

Amanda said...
"Unlike you I actually respect women. I have done more to fight for women's rights in 10 minutes than you and Amanda combined."

Trump says,
"No one loves women more than I do, I'll take good care of women"

Trump will give them jobs and the opportunity to compete in the market place. He will make sure the competent ones are rewarded and that women have the opportunity to contribute to society.

Hillary will make sure they get free birth control, abortions, and the ability to yell scream punch kick scratch and falsely accuse men of anything they want. Hillary will subsidize the XXXXX-studies programs that put students deep in debt for a degree that offers no value to society.

Which one do you think will work out for women better? The difference between us Amanda is I actually want my daughter to grow up and prosper. I actually care about the results achieved for women.

Amanda doesn't care how well these women do. As long as they vote for Hillary, the woman who intimidated and repressed the women her husband sexually assaulted and raped, they are doing their jobs as useful idiots.



Michael K said...

"my husband makes you look like a troll."

What's her name ?

"Shorter Mark: the faster we get rid of all this western civ stuff the better off we'll all be!"

It's OK. He never learned any of it.

Amanda said...

Fabi, I take note that you jump to conclusions. How's this for jumping to conclusions? Cops shooting and tasing people are some things that people like you applaud.

Matt said...

Good grief this idiocy at Trump events doesn't end does it? It really makes you wonder about the kinds of people who attend these campaign rallies. I mean, I'm pretty sure most are good people but the perception is completely shot to hell at this point.

Bruce Hayden said...

Not having enough time to read the who thread right now (so I apologize if others have posted this), I noticed this: Lewandowski prosecutor outed as Hillary supporter. This should surprise no one, that a (government employee) prosecutor would first support and contribute to Hillary, and secondly use his discretion to charge Lewandowski with a crime. We have seen this repeatedly over the last couple years, including the Travis County (TX) DA charging both Rick Perry and Tom DeLay with bogus crimes. I would expect that the reporter allegedly battered here probably would have been less enthusiastic with filing suit against this guy, knowing that that is likely to eliminate all access for her to Trump, and maybe even Cruz and Kasich, making her job far more difficult, if not impossible.

Amanda said...


""my husband makes you look like a troll."

What's Her name?"

So now Michael K you suggest I am gay? Obviously, based on your comment, if I were gay, that would be seen by you as something that you could denigrate. Your homophobia is duly noted. I certainly hope none of your patients were women or gay folks, or God forbid lesbians.

Fabi said...

Not sure what else your implication could have been, Amanda. Sorry that deduction is absent from your arsenal. And you've already been called out today by our hostess for incorrectly interpreting someone's comment and inventing verbiage to suit your needs. Lulz

Up your game.

Michael K said...

"So now Michael K you suggest I am gay? "

I was amused at your chest beating about your "husband."

The perpetually offended. By the way, I had lots of gay patients and friends. Many died of AIDS and I took care of them. My practice was next to Laguna Beach.

You, on the other hand, are a typical internet warrior with lots of opinions and anonymity.

You could even read my last book and learn a bit.

Drago said...

Early Amanda: "I see this girl said she was groped first, then she responded by hitting out at the groper."

Later Amanda: "Fabi, I take note that you jump to conclusions."

One can only hope that in any future collision between Early Amanda and Late Amanda that we avoid a matter/anti-matter type result.

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 264   Newer› Newest»