Althouse: "When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself."

April 28, 2015

"When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself."

"When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con."

Writes Ta-Nehisi Coates.

87 comments:

mgarbowski said...: His argument would have some force and merit if the violence in question were being directed back towards the state, back towards the aggressor. But it is not. It is being directed against storefront businesses and church senior centers. It is being directed against innocent, non-violent third parties. His war analogy is not even close to being accurate.
Ta-Nehisi Coates has a reputation for thoughtfulness, but at moments like this it can be hard to decide if he is a fool, dishonest, or both.; 4/28/15, 6:09 AM
Brando said...: What a disappointingly dumb argument. Nonviolence works best because it sways popular opinion and confounds the (often violent) opponent. Violence usually breeds reaction. Nonviolence got civil rights legislation passed. Riots got us Nixon, "law and order" mayors, more aggressive police forces, the war on drugs, and a judiciary that backed all this.; 4/28/15, 6:13 AM
MathMom said...: Well, I learned something important from this. Ta-Nehisi Coates is a man!; 4/28/15, 6:19 AM
Brando said...: In this instance, there was already outrage over Freddy Gray's death--and an investigation is under way. Lawful protests are fine, of course I think a bit premature as the investigation hasn't concluded so we have no idea what might have happened as a result of it, and public opinion was pushing the city to address this.

But now, with riots and looting and destruction--in already blighted neighborhoods--does anyone who is not an idiot think this is making people MORE interested in police accountability, rather than MORE sympathetic to the police? At best, these riots are distracting people from the initial Freddy Gray case; at worse they are making Baltimore's citizens more likely to give the police a free hand.

I get that Coates wants to be the provocative, "black rage" writer beloved by guilt-ridden white leftists, so a quasi-defense of violence will get him that. But even from a purely pro-police-accountability standpoint he's completely wrong.

To say nothing of the innocent victims of this rioting--people attacked on the street, police trying to restore order, storeowners and employees who are at least facing financial hardship from the looting, and motorists caught up in this mess.; 4/28/15, 6:22 AM
Jaq said...: Ta-Nehisi Coates has a reputation for thoughtfulness

Where? Among those who agree with every word he writes before he writes it? Is that the definition of "thoughtfulness"?

I would be curious to hear the first "thoughtful" thing he ever wrote that is in any way heterodox to the leftist movement in general.

A link would be great.; 4/28/15, 6:25 AM
Brando said...: Plus, it is a mistake to conflate peaceful protesters who were angry over Mr. Gray's death with the looters and rioters who are destroying their neighborhoods. These rioters don't care one bit about the man's death--they care about stealing and destroying, and saw a chance to do so. Let's not dignify them.

Side note--I telework today and yesterday, but when I need to go into the office I drive right through that intersection of North and Pennsylvania Avenues in West Baltimore. Seeing that intersection in the news full of flaming cars makes me more thankful for our telework policy than anything before, and I sympathize with any poor bystander who got caught in that.; 4/28/15, 6:26 AM
virgil xenophon said...: "...hard to decide if he is a fool, dishonest, or both."

Try both..; 4/28/15, 6:28 AM
Jaq said...: What 'liberals' are trying to do is install a mob kakistocracy in the name of social justice.; 4/28/15, 6:32 AM
Jim in St Louis said...: Locally we were graced with Coates' little nuggets of faux-wisdom. Our city is still dealing with the effects. I'm sorry Baltimore is the next town to suffer from money grubbers.

Non-violent protest only really works when the protesters have dignity. Well dressed and well behaved black folks getting smashed over the head for trying to register to vote in 1962 was so manifestly unfair that it turned the tide.

Polite and upstanding Hindi people telling the Brits to get out of India, that they would not be a colony any longer struck a cord with the London public and sapped the government's resolve to crack down.

But non-dignified, half naked young people jumping up and down on cars and looting liquor stores does not fit anyone's definition of a protest.

Coates and company are pretending that they can control the mob- they are trying a con by saying that they will hold back the animals--in exchange for money, favors, grants to their organization, political districts gerrymandered to force minority-majority elections, jobs on commissions and blue ribbon panels etc.

Our town saw it all right here over the past year. The money is now flowing, the grants have been awarded, corporations have been bilked, and Ferguson is still a sh*t-hole and is only getting worse.

Thanks Ta-Nehisi!; 4/28/15, 6:34 AM
J. Farmer said...: Ta-nehisi Coates' entire career is built on explaining to you why backs behaving badly is white people's fault. Baltimore is 65% black. And it's going the way of Detroit, St. Louis, and Selma. Does Ta-nehisi ever public muse about why predominantly black neighborhoods empty of thriving businesses in short order and leave behind liquor stores and payday loan rackets?

I went to public schools my entire life in the 80's and 90's in the era of bussing, when junior highs were a couple miles from my home but I was sent on a 30-minute bus ride into what everybody called "the ghetto." Only trouble was instead of learning the beauty of diversity, the experience forced me to keep asking myself the same question over and over: what the hell is the matter with the black kids?!

Seeing the attack on Reginald Denny during the 1992 LA riots was also a seminal event. Here was a person beaten much more severely and with much more ferocity than Rodney King, in an explicitly racially motivated attack. Reginald Denny has gone on to live a quiet life with dignity, while King continued to be a lawbreaking drug addict who drown in his pool.; 4/28/15, 6:34 AM
virgil xenophon said...: The last Republican Mayor of Baltimore was in 1967. The present Mayor and police Chief are black and blacks are the majority on both the police force, city council and school board. Pretty tough to blame this on whites and or conservatives. The real blame falls on the Democrats and their policies. Race is not really a factor policy-wise. Practically every major city East of the Miss. R has been controlled by Democrats for the last 50 years--the first 20 by whites and the last 30 by blacks--and the results have been the same..; 4/28/15, 6:36 AM
Unknown said...: Plus, it is a mistake to conflate peaceful protesters who were angry over Mr. Gray's death with the looters and rioters who are destroying their neighborhoods.

-is it a mistake to conflate peaceful protesters with the mayor who wanted to "give space to destroy?"

Where is obama? Oh that's right at the correspondents circle jerk.

Get used to this, this IS hope and change.; 4/28/15, 6:40 AM
Michael K said...: "Ta-Nehisi Coates has a reputation for thoughtfulness,"

By who ? He is one more professional black, like Sharpton and Jackson and many members of this administration. They have set the reputation of their race or thoughtfulness back a generation. Fortunately, there are blacks who are reasonable and interested in leading a useful life. I don't see them on TV. I do know a few personally and thorough the internet.; 4/28/15, 6:40 AM
Michael K said...: Autocorrect should be banned. Several odd spellings appeared in that last comment.; 4/28/15, 6:42 AM
Hagar said...: The celebrated cases of the last several years could have been avoided if the political leaders had understood that they were political crises, not legal cases, and had overruled the lawyers to get the available information out and publicized immediately.; 4/28/15, 6:42 AM
Mike Sylwester said...: When Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman violently, Zimmerman had a right to respond violently.

Likewise when Michael Brown attacked police officer Darren Wilson violently, Wilson had a right to respond violently.

Nobody should have expected either Zimmerman or Wilson to begin to exercise non-violence halfway through either of those encounters.

Nobody should have expected either Zimmerman or Wilson to call "time out".

When non-violence is preached by African-Americans while they dole out heaps of violence to other ethnic groups, then that preaching reveals itself to be a con.; 4/28/15, 6:42 AM
David said...: I continue to believe that inadequate police training and poor procedures are big problems. As is racism or just old fashioned callousness in many cases.

But I will be truly impressed the day I see street demonstrations over the black on black crime epidemic that plagues places like Baltimore The bunker mentality acceptance of the rampant street crime is very sad.; 4/28/15, 6:45 AM
amielalune said...: I'm always amazed that people are interested in what Ta-Nehesi Coates has to say. He has proven himself to be of low intelligence (or blatantly dishonest) over and over.

But he likes the big words, so apparently academics are intrigued.; 4/28/15, 6:48 AM
Brando said...: "-is it a mistake to conflate peaceful protesters with the mayor who wanted to "give space to destroy?""

The mayor is a pathetic caretaker who never got a hold on how to bring down crime in this city. O'Malley was overrated, but at least he did take crime seriously while he was mayor.

I'm all for police accountability--it's necessary in any free society--while enabling them to do their jobs effectively. But it seems in a number of cities (including Baltimore) they've struck the awful balance of enabling widespread police abuses while allowing crime rates to remain sadly high.; 4/28/15, 6:50 AM
Michael P said...: In other news, TNC liked GWB's drone strikes because one large offense justifies lots of relatively minor, if indiscriminate, violence in response.

Oh, he didn't use the same argument then? I am shocked!; 4/28/15, 6:51 AM
Brando said...: The article itself was incoherent--it boiled down to "certain police officers were brutal towards certain individuals, therefore don't tell rioters to not riot!"

The logic equates to "Bob punched Dave, so Charlie is justified in burning down Paula's store".

I'm embarrassed for his editors. Something like that doesn't belong in a 5th grader's essay, let alone an adult magazine.; 4/28/15, 6:55 AM
JAORE said...: Rioting has become THE image of inner city youth. That is a tragedy.

50 years of the Great Society, billions upon billions of dollars, law upon law, regulation upon regulation in the name of Civil Rights and its perverted twin diversity have been layered upon America.

Yet here we are, violence is "understandable". The nation that twice elected President Obama is filled with racists and cowards per our leaders.

The hopes of my youth have become a bitter mockery.

Thank you Ta-nehisi, and Jessie and Al and Eric. You are not alone. But you have done much more than your share.; 4/28/15, 6:57 AM
Jaq said...: The present Mayor and police Chief are black and blacks are the majority on both the police force, city council and school board. Pretty tough to blame this on whites and or conservatives.

These are the same people that blame the fact that Cuba is an impoverished police state on the US.

A 'reasonable' man, of course, knows that in Cuba, such tactics are justified to keep people who want freedom under control.; 4/28/15, 6:57 AM
damikesc said...: So, burn TNC's house down? Cool.

Ta-Nehisi Coates has a reputation for thoughtfulness, but at moments like this it can be hard to decide if he is a fool, dishonest, or both.

It's not an earned reputation. He just mouths the inane gibberish white progressives like and, therefore, that smart black man is their equal, in their eyes.

These savages are cutting fire hoses trying to put out fires in THEIR home area. This isn't justifiable. I think the police have a lot to answer for --- but, seriously, fuck these protestors. That mom smacking the crap out of her son when he was looting was great and what is needed in that community.

...except they need the dads to beat the high holy living shit out of their useless progeny.

Leaving the area and letting them burn their homes to the ground and refusing to help them rebuild would be the fair and just thing to do.

Get used to this, this IS hope and change.

To paraphrase Jon Gabriel, hope and change involves a lot more looting and riots than I had anticipated.; 4/28/15, 6:59 AM
J. Farmer said...: "These are the same people that blame the fact that Cuba is an impoverished police state on the US."

I don't know anybody who makes that argument, but I'm sure they exist. Most of the people I know who are against the embargo think it's a counterproductive failure that, on average, harms the typical Cuban while leaving the autocratic rulers relatively untouched.; 4/28/15, 7:02 AM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: And yet the mayor of that city and the commissioner of that city's police still have no idea what happened. I suspect this is not because the mayor and police commissioner are bad people, but because the state of Maryland prioritizes the protection of police officers charged with abuse over the citizens who fall under its purview.

Sounds exactly like what happens when police ask Black witnesses, or long time Black residents of neighborhoods, who the perps and criminal elements are.

Why it's almost as if the folks are prioritizing the protection of fellow 'citizens', over law and order.; 4/28/15, 7:04 AM
pst314 said...: Perhaps a man, but not an adult.
Just another rat gnawing away at civilization.; 4/28/15, 7:07 AM
Brando said...: "Leaving the area and letting them burn their homes to the ground and refusing to help them rebuild would be the fair and just thing to do."

If the rioters were only burning their own homes and cars, that would be one thing. The problem is they're burning homes and cars and looting stores and attacking people whose only connection to this is being unfortunate enough to be living in or passing through those neighborhoods.

The police--and now national guard--need to swarm the place, and crack down hard. I think the mistake they made was being caught off guard and not squelching this when it started.

Apparently they were several dozen high school kids--moral monsters--who thought they could do something like the awful movie "the Purge" and go wild without repercussions. They needed to be dealt with swiftly and harshly to prevent the chaos from spreading. Once order is upended, all the opportunists come out.; 4/28/15, 7:07 AM
MadisonMan said...: He has proven himself to be of low intelligence

You can disagree with his column without stooping to this.

People of low intelligence generally do not make a good living giving speeches and writing columns.; 4/28/15, 7:09 AM
Jaq said...: People of low intelligence generally do not make a good living giving speeches and writing columns.

I am not going to comment on Coates' intelligence, but that is a pretty weak argument. Almost as good as "It must be true! It's printed right here in the newspaper!"; 4/28/15, 7:15 AM
MadisonMan said...: Do not confuse the intelligence of a regular journalist with a columnist.

To have a column requires a skill set that to me at least suggest intelligence. You have to butter up the right people, you have to know what people want to read about, you have to know how to write. Those are not the skills of the dumb.; 4/28/15, 7:25 AM
rhhardin said...: Blacks have a social pathology precisely because of the helpfulness of democrats.; 4/28/15, 7:30 AM
rhhardin said...: The mayor of Baltimore was featured in the spring Oberlin Alumni Magazine.

That was probably bad timing.

I'm waiting for Baltimore to go solar.; 4/28/15, 7:33 AM
Clyde said...: Those who sow the wind will reap the whirlwind.; 4/28/15, 7:44 AM
Mike Sylwester said...: I should have written:

Nobody should have expected Martin or Brown to "call time out".; 4/28/15, 7:47 AM
Rusty said...: I don't know anybody who makes that argument, but I'm sure they exist. Most of the people I know who are against the embargo think it's a counterproductive failure that, on average, harms the typical Cuban while leaving the autocratic rulers relatively untouched.

And our recognizing he current Cuban regime will alter nothing.; 4/28/15, 7:48 AM
Brando said...: "We used to shoot looters on sight."

It was actually the humane thing for periods of riot and civil unrest--the quickest way to put an end to the insurrection. Shooting a few looters prevents far more people from getting killed if the riots continued.; 4/28/15, 7:57 AM
damikesc said...: Does he ever not close comments?; 4/28/15, 8:03 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I kind of understand what Coates is saying but...

If looting, setting fires and puncturing fire hoses is now political activism... I could also see how a slush fund called the Clinton Foundation is doing good works.; 4/28/15, 8:09 AM
Fernandinande said...: MathMom said...
Well, I learned something important from this. Ta-Nehisi Coates is a man!

That name belongs on a bottled soft drink.; 4/28/15, 8:14 AM
Jaq said...: Most of the people I know who are against the embargo think it's a counterproductive failure that, on average, harms the typical Cuban

So you are saying that nobody you know thinks that the embargo is responsible for the horrendous economic conditions in Cuba, but they all think that the embargo "harms typical Cubans"?

Can you really not see the double-think there?; 4/28/15, 8:14 AM
Bob Boyd said...: If Mr. Coates was personally getting his ass kicked by rioters I think we would hear from him strident calls for an end to the violence.; 4/28/15, 8:23 AM
chickelit said...: Jim in St Louis said...

Coates and company are pretending that they can control the mob- they are trying a con by saying that they will hold back the animals--in exchange for money, favors, grants to their organization, political districts gerrymandered to force minority-majority elections, jobs on commissions and blue ribbon panels etc.

This. Plus to further undermine the lie foisted by Coates, what evidence is there that that he has any effect on stopping violence? It's a simple shakedown.; 4/28/15, 8:28 AM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: Thank you for clarifying, Mr. Coates, that nonviolence is not your guide.; 4/28/15, 8:29 AM
Mitch H. said...: People like Coates remind me of the middle-class but fervently Irish guys who used to encourage the IRA and assorted hangers-on to continue their "struggle" despite having no political common ground with those doctrinaire communists, because it served their ethnic self-image for Irish patriots to be fighting the good fight somewhere far, far away from their safe and tranquil American neighborhoods. Northern Irish misery supported their amour propre, and thus it must go on, despite all indications that nothing positive or liberating would ever come out of the "struggle".; 4/28/15, 8:35 AM
Brando said...: "If Mr. Coates was personally getting his ass kicked by rioters I think we would hear from him strident calls for an end to the violence."

Any apologist for rioters should be required to spend some time in the middle of a riot and see how long they last.; 4/28/15, 8:48 AM
Big Mike said...: There were white people -- and I'm one of them -- who were also angry over Freddie Grey's maltreatment and death. But none of us are in any way, shape, or form in agreement with rioting.

What is the argument in favor of nonviolence and coalition building? It works. It got Voting Rights passed and affirmative action. What is the argument against rioting and looting? It destroys homes, livelihoods, and possessions of other Black people, mostly, and leaves Black people isolated and powerless to do anything but more destruction.; 4/28/15, 8:50 AM
TRISTRAM said...: What I don't understand is how a Police Union can bargain for an obstruction of justice provision (no investigation interviews for at least 10 days) and have it be legal and respected? Sounds like a buffer period to organize a consistent lie.

I understand the frustration with lack of transparency, accountability and the hypocrisy of giving police a reflection period when we are not given the same option.

The Prohibition (Alcohol then Drugs) and using police as tax collectors on the poor have poisoned the police / public interaction, particularly in 'Blue' cities.

This is not going to end well.; 4/28/15, 8:51 AM
Bob R said...: Coates makes what I consider a pretty bland point - that violence can be morally justified and used to good ends. Washington, Sherman, Grant, and Patton seem like good examples. Now if he can just explain how burning down drug stores and senior centers is going to result in a less militarized, unionized, insulated police force, I'm all ears.; 4/28/15, 8:54 AM
Michael McNeil said...: Autocorrect should be banned.

Instead of calling for autoCorrect to be “banned,” how about if you personally, individually just say No! That is, turn it off in your settings — it's not hard. (On the iPhone, find it at: Settings / General / Keyboard / Auto-Correction: Off.); 4/28/15, 8:55 AM
Brando said...: "What is the argument in favor of nonviolence and coalition building? It works. It got Voting Rights passed and affirmative action. What is the argument against rioting and looting? It destroys homes, livelihoods, and possessions of other Black people, mostly, and leaves Black people isolated and powerless to do anything but more destruction."

To take one historical exampe, in 1857 in India the Sepoy Mutiny was a widespread, violent uprising against the British, and the British cracked down sending in crack troops who swiftly destroyed the less organized rebels. Captured rebels were strapped across the front of cannon and blasted over the jungle. India stayed peaceful until the 1940s.

Then, perhaps having learned the lesson, Indians tried nonviolence--causing British rule to become expensive, inefficient, and increasingly unpopular back home and abroad. Ultimately the British had to abandon India, their most valuable colonial possession. Is there any doubt how the British public might have reacted if Gandhi had resorted to terrorism and rioting?; 4/28/15, 8:56 AM
Brando said...: "Coates makes what I consider a pretty bland point - that violence can be morally justified and used to good ends."

While that is a point, I don't see where Coates makes it at all. His argument boils down to "hey, the police were violent when they arrested some people!" Which has absolutely nothing to do with (1) violence accomplishing anything good or (2) being justified or (3) being defensible in riots, where totally unrelated parties to the police beatings are looting and harming other totally unrelated parties.

It's as though his article was too stupid to even be offensive.; 4/28/15, 8:59 AM
Fen said...: Well Ta-Nehisi Coates, the world has been watching Baltimore and your philosophy on violence has led to a general consensus:

"What a bunch of apes"

Not sure if that's what you were going for...; 4/28/15, 9:14 AM
holdfast said...: TNC has an almost pathological fear of disagreement. I was banned from the entire Atlantic website for respectfully disagreeing with him and having the temerity to back my position with links. It’s just TNC expounding on his grievance de jour, and hundreds of trailed seals, mostly white SJWs, clapping their flippers and begging for more.

TNC's shtick is that he's angry enough to give the white SJWs a little frisson, but not so angry as to actually scare them out of their footie pajamas.; 4/28/15, 9:33 AM
CWJ said...: Revolutionary violence is sooo romantic to people at a safe distance both socially and physically. In other words, The Atlantic readers.

Coates is only doing his job; giving the people what they want.; 4/28/15, 9:39 AM
Brando said...: "TNC has an almost pathological fear of disagreement. I was banned from the entire Atlantic website for respectfully disagreeing with him and having the temerity to back my position with links."

I was having trouble getting my comments posted on his and other Atlantic writers' sites (even where I was agreeing with the writer) so I assumed it was a technical glitch.

Banning comments except in the most egregious circumstances is cowardly and ill-serves the writer and readership. Lively comment sections are where the best debates are hashed out. Maybe TNC should work at a college where the new normal is to allow the free expression of one idea only.; 4/28/15, 9:46 AM
CWJ said...: Thinking of the WH correspondents dinner, did anyone else also think of the scene early in "Dr Zhivago" juxtaposing the formal dressed ball goers with the protesters being ridden down.; 4/28/15, 9:48 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Tim in Vermont:

"So you are saying that nobody you know thinks that the embargo is responsible for the horrendous economic conditions in Cuba, but they all think that the embargo "harms typical Cubans"?

Can you really not see the double-think there?"

I don't want to vanquish the rare opportunity to be among the majority opinion of the Althouse comments sections, and this is truly unrelated to the topic at hand, though you did introduce the subject of Cuba, so perhaps I can avoid the accusation of trolling this time. All that said, here's why you're wrong...

No, there is no double think there. The horrendous economic conditions in Cuba are a result of its horribly inefficient, centrally planned economy. It's a hard economic reality that the average Venezuelan is learning as they are queuing up to purchase their allotted amount of toilet paper. Now, that is an entirely separate question as to whether or not the embargo harms the average Cuban. It manifestly does. That is the entire point of an economic embargo--to inflict economic hardship on a country. The travel restrictions prevent a nearby, wealthy clientele from putting hard currency in the hands of average Cubans, to take just one obvious example. So, to return to your original point, no the embargo is not the reason Cuba is an "impoverished police state." That is a result of Cuba's political and economic system. But yes, the embargo does economically harm the average Cuban, does virtually nothing to induce reform in the government, and in fact serves as a useful propaganda tool for the government. So all in all, I'd say it was a bad policy that should be scrapped.; 4/28/15, 10:16 AM
MayBee said...: "Coates makes what I consider a pretty bland point - that violence can be morally justified and used to good ends."

Isn't this the very thing the police would say?; 4/28/15, 10:17 AM
William said...: Baltimore has a black mayor and a black police chief and many black police officers in positions of authority. If the Baltimore police are so brutish and heavy handed, why isn't this a reflection on their leadership and administrative ability?......Apparently the problem with Ferguson was that the police and city council were white. All the problems there stemmed from that. That's not the case in Baltimore. I'm sure by the end of the week all these problems will be straightened out.; 4/28/15, 10:37 AM
William said...: Black people kill each other at a brisk clip. What are the odds that Coates would criticize Suge Knight ?; 4/28/15, 10:41 AM
William said...: Where is the Steve Bilko of Rwanda or the Mandela of Nigeria? Why do blacks only achieve the status of heroes and legends when they're protesting against white power? Black lives are tormented and terminated by black tyrants without undue notice or mourning.; 4/28/15, 10:46 AM
Douglas B. Levene said...: It astounds me that Coates somehow has a reputation as public intellectual. He's a phony, a faux radical shaking an angry fist and calling for "you and him to go fight it out." He's never said anything thoughtful or intelligent, he just replays the same old race card over and over.; 4/28/15, 10:48 AM
damikesc said...: Any apologist for rioters should be required to spend some time in the middle of a riot and see how long they last.

No --- have the rioters brought to where they live and unleash Hell there.

Easy to "empathize" with them when you're not on the line.

It's why, while I think letting the rioters do whatever they want to their home is just, as others pointed out --- it would hurt a lot of people who are assuredly NOT rioting.

And Al Sharpton is heading there. Yeah, that will help.; 4/28/15, 10:54 AM
Douglas B. Levene said...: Let me make a practical suggestion for dealing with the problem of police abuse. I start by noting that bad cops are a reality and the problem is that no one seems to deal with them very effectively. I think a very big part of the problem is police unions - which are very effective at preventing discipline of bad cops, just as teachers unions are so effective at preventing discipline of bad teachers. My suggestion then is this: oulaw all public employee unions, including unions of the uniformed services. Give the elected officials the power to manage their employees, including the bad ones, and then hold them accountable via elections when they don't do that.; 4/28/15, 10:56 AM
damikesc said...: Out of curiosity --- since TNC feels violence is a justifiable strategy, would he oppose meeting said violence with MORE violence?

Because his asinine strategy puts self defense on the table to for a laundry list of bad things.; 4/28/15, 10:57 AM
damikesc said...: I think a very big part of the problem is police unions - which are very effective at preventing discipline of bad cops, just as teachers unions are so effective at preventing discipline of bad teachers. My suggestion then is this: oulaw all public employee unions, including unions of the uniformed services. Give the elected officials the power to manage their employees, including the bad ones, and then hold them accountable via elections when they don't do that.

Public unions shouldn't exist (again, if you're going to negotiate AGAINST me, I should be allowed to participate).

But I doubt it fixes the problem. Police protected their own long before unions.; 4/28/15, 11:00 AM
Ironclad said...: Coates is the resident racist at the Atlantic, his articles have the veneer of intelligence but they all boil down to a simple "because we were slaves" subtext. The article in question is nothing more than a "they had it coming because they disrespected us" screed. But it must have been a lot harder for him to write it because the players in Baltimore are all black.; 4/28/15, 11:08 AM
Jaq said...: You are still doing the double-think thing. You don't even know you are doing it. It's amazing, really.; 4/28/15, 11:27 AM
Mike Sylwester said...: What I don't understand is how a Police Union can bargain for an obstruction of justice provision (no investigation interviews for at least 10 days) and have it be legal and respected? Sounds like a buffer period to organize a consistent lie.

Sounds to me like the investigators estimate that their investigation will take about ten days.; 4/28/15, 11:36 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Tim in Vermont:

"You are still doing the double-think thing. You don't even know you are doing it. It's amazing, really."

If you would like to say which of my arguments are mutually contradictory, I'd be happy to listen. Otherwise, I assume your repeated charge of doublethink is an empty insult meant to hide the fact that you have no cogent counterargument.; 4/28/15, 11:42 AM
damikesc said...: Now, that is an entirely separate question as to whether or not the embargo harms the average Cuban. It manifestly does.

If basically one country on Earth boycotts you (it's not like the rest of the world is with us on this --- they have plenty of tourists from other countries, including Canada) and you're doing shitty, it's not the one country's fault.

But yes, the embargo does economically harm the average Cuban, does virtually nothing to induce reform in the government, and in fact serves as a useful propaganda tool for the government.

There's no boycott of Venezuela and they somehow blame us for all of their problems regardless.; 4/28/15, 12:14 PM
Anonymous said...: William said...
Where is the Steve Bilko of Rwanda or the Mandela of Nigeria?

*****

You mean Steve Biko.

But when we're discussing T-Nehisi Coates, it's easy to be unconsciously reminded of Sgt. Bilko.; 4/28/15, 12:23 PM
Brando said...: "There's no boycott of Venezuela and they somehow blame us for all of their problems regardless."

Which is why Maduro's government is losing its grip--he's trying to blame "foreign" (i.e., U.S.) influence for their various economic troubles, and it's not working. Much better to allow a kleptocracy like that collapse under its own stupidity than to actively and publicly give the tyrants a powerful outside force to blame for their own screwups.; 4/28/15, 12:34 PM
J. Farmer said...: @damikesc:

"If basically one country on Earth boycotts you (it's not like the rest of the world is with us on this --- they have plenty of tourists from other countries, including Canada) and you're doing shitty, it's not the one country's fault."

Read what I wrote. I precisely said that Cuba's sad political and economic condition is not the fault of the embargo. But that is not the same thing as saying the embargo does not have an impact. If the embargo has no effect on Cuba, then why bother keeping it?

"There's no boycott of Venezuela and they somehow blame us for all of their problems regardless."

Well, actually, just as history and the facts on the ground were allowing a head of steam to build against the Maduro government, the Obama administration acted in an unbelievably stupid manner last month and announced that Venezuela was a threat to national security and that sanctions would be imposed on certain leaders. Of course leaders with autocratic tendencies are going to use the propaganda device of the bullying Americans. That doesn't mean we have to play into it.; 4/28/15, 12:43 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: It's not that Coates' sentiment is wrong, exactly, it's that it doesn't really allow for any end to hostilities, ever. Hamas and Hezbollah try the same thing, of course, firing rockets willy nilly and then demanding restraint of Israel--anyone with a sibling experienced a hit-call timeout-complain when retaliated against cycle a time or two, I'd guess. The question is, though, where does that end? The rioters are and will be perpetually aggrieved, and neither distant or recent history (including wrongs done to their group, broadly) will ever change. That's what makes a use of the chant "no justice, no peace" in defense of riots, etc, so troubling--when exactly will those on the side of the rioters decided that they in fact have justice? If the answer is "never" or at least "not in the forseeable future" then it becomes even less important to listen to their actual concerns. If one party declares they won't stop fighting and feel themselves justified in perpetual war, why would the other side listen to any demands? What are the actual demands here, anyway?; 4/28/15, 1:16 PM
Sammy Finkelman said...: Douglas said...4/28/15, 10:56 AM

Let me make a practical suggestion for dealing with the problem of police abuse. I start by noting that bad cops are a reality and the problem is that no one seems to deal with them very effectively.

No, I think New York City deals with them very, very effectively. New York City is about double the size of the next largest city, and you can count the number of incidents on the fingers of one hand. And none of the recent ones were handled wrongly

Although the unions don't help, what with getting police time off to consult their lawyers.; 4/28/15, 1:18 PM
Bilwick said...: "Liberal" non-violence: pacifism toward terrorists, looters, and other bad guys; coupled no-holds-barred aggressive State force against peaceful taxpayers and gun-owners.; 4/28/15, 1:52 PM
Lydia said...: Coates isn't giving the okay to the rioting, he's saying look at the cause -- see the rest of the paragraph Althouse quoted:

And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.; 4/28/15, 2:31 PM
jr565 said...: The cops have held back and let the loooters run wild. If Coates really wants violence, it can be arranged.; 4/28/15, 2:42 PM
mccullough said...: Coates should be calling for the citizenry to execute the gangs in Baltimore. Some of the gang members are also police officers, and they shouldn't be spared either.

Coates is a pussy. If he wants to lift his hand to strike out at The Man, he will get killed.; 4/28/15, 3:23 PM
mccullough said...: Why doesn't Coates pull a Nat Turner? He's a coward. He relishes watching other people do what he can't.

He's afraid of Whitey.; 4/28/15, 3:30 PM
ObeliskToucher said...: "When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con."

Saving this link for the next time the Palestinians decide they haven't been getting enough attention...; 4/28/15, 3:41 PM
retired said...: He would be driving a cab absent AA.; 4/28/15, 4:37 PM
holdfast said...: ". . . his articles have the veneer of intelligence but they all boil down to a simple 'because we were slaves' subtext."

Arghhh! It's like Passach 354 days of the year (383 in leap years); 4/28/15, 7:05 PM
averagejoe said...: I say go full violence. Don't give these scumbags space to destroy. Arrest every person participating in this riot and execute them. Seek them out and eradicate them. Raid every neighborhood and root out the gang members and kill them. Go into the prisons and execute every gang member and every violent felon. Wade into crowds of rioters with truncheons, water cannons, and rifle fire. Kill, kill, kill them all. Drive them into the oceans, across the borders, out of this country. Kill every one of them, and let their families and descendants and accomplices know that to choose that life is to choose misery and death.; 4/28/15, 10:24 PM
wildswan said...: TNC is saying that the Democrats have been running Baltimore (and other cities) so poorly that riots are inevitable.

And he's saying that the Democrats plan to scapegoat the police.

This will ruin Baltimore.; 5/1/15, 6:22 PM