Farber: We don’t have a context for this tradition here, merciless, political satire. One thing I keep noticing is commentators here are pointing out that the cartoons were very offensive and insulting. It’s as if we don’t understand that was by design. Very intentionally offensive, and very clear about why that couldn’t be compromised. That’s the part we don’t get, as Americans. It’s like, “Why did they have to be so mean?”Here's the drawing. It's a drawing labeled "The Hairy Ass of Mohamid!" held up by Crumb himself who is saying "Actually it's the ass of my friend Mohamid Bakhsh, a movie producer who lives in Los Angeles, California," which is apparently a reference to the animator Ralph Bakshi with whom Crumb has a longstanding feud over Fritz the Cat. The whole drawing of Crumb with his drawing of an ass is labeled "A Cowardly Cartoonist." His wife Aline, also a cartoonist, made a drawing of herself looking at this drawing saying "Oh, my God, they’re going to come after us! This is terrible…I want to live to see my grandchildren!" and Crumb saying "Well, it’s not that bad. And, besides, they’ve killed enough cartoonists, maybe they’ve gotten it out of their system."
Crumb: It’s a French thing, yeah, and they value that very highly here, which is why there’s like a huge amount of sympathy for the killing of those guys, you know, huge demonstrations and crowds in Paris – people holding up signs that say, “Je suis Charlie.”...
Farber: It’s not the faith that is being insulted. It’s the extremism, the psychosis. The totalitarian impulse.
Crumb: …All the big newspapers and magazines in American had all agreed, mutually agreed, not to print those offensive cartoons that were in that Charlie Hebdo magazine. They all agreed that they were not going to print those, because they were too insulting to the Prophet. Charlie Hedbo, it didn’t have a big circulation. A lot of French people said, “Yes, it was tasteless, but I defend their right to freedom of speech.” Yeah, it was tasteless, that’s what they say. And perhaps it was. I’m not going to make a career out of baiting some fucking religious fanatics, you know, by insulting their prophet. I wouldn’t do that. That seems crazy. But then, after they got killed, I just had to draw that cartoon, you know, showing the Prophet. The cartoon I drew shows me, myself, holding up a cartoon that I’ve just drawn. A crude drawing of an ass that’s labeled “The Hairy Ass of Muhammed.” [Laughs.]
One more bit from the interview:
Farber: What was your reaction inside when you first heard about [the Charlie Hebdo massacre]?
Crumb: I had the same reaction I had when 9/11 happened. I thought, “Jesus Christ, things are really going to turn ugly now.”... The right wing here is very down on the Arabs. And France has an Arab population that’s like, 5 Million, something like that – huge population of Muslims in this country, most of whom just want to mind their own business and don’t want to be bothered. Those kinds of extremists are a very small minority. We have friends here who are from that background, you know, Moroccan or Algerian. And they just don’t want any trouble, and their kids are mostly even more moderate than they are.
Posts
99 comments:
AFTER 9-11 he thought things would get ugly.
9-11 wasn't ugly one supposes but that perennial lefty fear of a rational anti-muslim backlash (which would be completely justified) but never actually materializes is all the lefties chat about.
"Huge population of Muslims in this country, most of whom just want to mind their own business and don't want to be bothered."
Are these the same Muslims who live in the "no-go" zones in and around Paris? What country allows this to happen? And what group of people think they can just come into a country and tell them we don't want to follow your laws you can't come in here? We have our own laws to take care of things.
I thought of Crumb in the context of cartoon slobber: link
Crumb at leat understands the religious impulse. I recall a Flaky Foont comic, wherein the hero is eternally Searching for God. God shows up one day and it scares the shit out of him.
Must have been Allah.
He is indeed cowardly!
... a rational anti-muslim backlash (which would be completely justified)...
Oy vey.
I'll bite. What, exactly, constitutes "a rational anti-Muslim backlash"?
751 no go zones in France. Disgusting.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006/11/the-751-no-go-zones-of-france
It’s as if we don’t understand that was by design. Very intentionally offensive, and very clear about why that couldn’t be compromised. That’s the part we don’t get, as Americans.
Odd. The sorts of Americans I associate with understood this implicitly.
What is funny about the apologists for the terrorists is that they cling to the meme that "Bush knew" that the attack on 9-11 was coming because of a line in a PDB that contained no further actionable intelligence, unless of course the action was to completely abrogate the civil liberties of all Muslims in the US, or crossing our borders that had even the slightest whiff of suspicion. Then he could have stopped it, maybe, sure...
But to be a liberal is to hold many contradictory thoughts in your head and imagine that each is the truth.
I take back my previous comment.
(muttering to myself -- again don't read just the excerpt.. don't read just the excerpt..)
He is delightful if you read the whole interview and the American (at least as I understand what a quintessential American is) in him jumps out.
MisterBuddwing said...
I'll bite.
It's best not to. Drago is our resident thoughtless dumbass, also afflicted with logorrhea.
Drago is our resident thoughtless dumbass.
ARM, you are far too modest.
Well, give him credit for sticking his neck out a bit. Was it Magritte who drew those pictures of a pipe and entitled them "This is not a pipe."? We're into some high art, high risk abstract art commentary......If I draw a picture of a 7th century Arab doing something obscene and say explicitly that this is not Mohammed taking a huge dump, have I, in fact, committed sacrilege. Or, suppose I draw a caricature of a man who looks like Cheney fucking La Belle France in the ass and label the cartoon as "This not Mohammed fucking France in the ass". Will the cartoon thus pass muster with Koranic scholars. These are difficult theological and aesthetic questions. We need guidance.
It’s as if we don’t understand that was by design. Very intentionally offensive, and very clear about why that couldn’t be compromised. That’s the part we don’t get, as Americans.
Yeah.. exactly. tell that to that lefty nincompoop Sally Kohn or whatever the fuck her name is.. She is lecturing everyone that free speech comes with responsibilities.
What the actual fuck is wrong with these people? To them the "right wing backlash" which is always right around the corner, yet never actually happening is worse than the 24000 deadly Muslim terrorist attacks that did actually happen.
If terrorist attacks "are not Islam" somebody needs to get into the mosques and madrasas and let the adherents to the faith know.
The right wing here is very down on the Arabs
Yes, since 9/11 the right wing has murdered thousands.
Obama sends lame duck, reporter wire-tapping AG to global free speech rally, who then decides to not to even show up. The Aristocrats.
Yeah, I forgot about the irony of sending Holder to this, the guy who went after the reporters.
tim in vermont said...
ARM, you are far too modest.
A quick and dirty IQ test is simply to ask, who is stupid enough to defend Drago?
"Huge population of Muslims in this country, most of whom just want to mind their own business and don't want to be bothered."
Sure, R., and I too have met many agreeable, congenial Muslims both in Morocco and in France. But what about the Arab YOUTH, the young males mostly 18-26, who travel around in packs and dig -- even get hard-ons from -- inspiring fear and hassling women?
Mussolini discovered in 1920s Italy that he could get young males in quantity to become blackshirts -- fascists -- as long as they had the opportunity to perform violence. Because violence is a high. Some people claim not to understand how evil can exist. They claim that everyone is born good. Rousseau, the Noble Savage and all that.
Violence feels good. Performing it gives the performer a high. The Marquis de Sade understood the human animal much more deeply than the childlike Rousseau.
Honestly, what would Obama say if he were there? A reprise of "The future shall not belong to those who insult the prophet of Islam?"
Well, 11 more of those prophet of Islam insulters are eliminated from ownership in the future. So what is there for him to protest? It's not like he could have thrown those guys in prison the way he did a US film maker for insulting Islam.
Seriously, what could he do?
You don’t have journalists over there anymore, what they have is public relations people. That’s what they have over in America now. Two-hundred and fifty thousand people in public relations. And a dwindling number of actual reporters and journalists.
.
Crumb is totally right about this. We don't have journalists here in America. We have journolisters like Ezra Klein and his ilk and lefty lunatics like Sally Kohn.
A quick and dirty IQ test is simply to ask, who is stupid enough to defend Drago?
Here's an IQ test for you ARM. Ask yourself whether I would have to have a high opinion of Drago's intelligence to make that comment, then realize you flunked.
MisterBuddwing: "Oy vey.
I'll bite. What, exactly, constitutes "a rational anti-Muslim backlash"?"
Good catch.
I meant to write backlash as "backlash".
In this case, it would be the ability for individuals to openly discuss the clear danger of having radical islamists who are willing to commit acts of murder in our midst along with a substantial proportion of other muslims who support such actions without being accused of islamophobia and religious bigotry.
Further, the continued monitoring of mosques/madrassas that preach the islamification of western nations and the appropriateness of sharia implementation and compliance in those western nations.
Yeah, I forgot about the irony of sending Holder to this, the guy who went after the reporters.
Holder didn't go. He flew out of France this morning. The best we could come up with was our ambassador to France.
ARMeltdown: "It's best not to. Drago is our resident thoughtless dumbass, also afflicted with logorrhea."
You must remember that ARMeltdown is the fellow who thought he was being "clever" by pretending that the French manhunt for the terrorist killers this last week somehow negated the French policy of allowing Sharia-compliant/muslim run areas within France.
There's a very high likelihood that ARMeltdown did not even know those areas existed.
"Huge population of Muslims in this country, most of whom just want to mind their own business and don't want to be bothered."
That's the problem. They're busy not being bothered, while other people are committing terrorism in their name.
You cannot co-exist with those who refuse to co-exist with you.
ARMeltdown: "A quick and dirty IQ test is simply to ask, who is stupid enough to defend Drago?"
Why don't you make it easy on yourself ARMeltdown and simply link to whichever statement of mine you believe would be "problematic" for anyone to defend?
Don't worry, we won't hold our breath.
If you had something substantive in that regard, you would already have posted it.
But you don't.
So you won't.
BTW, lets say 99% of Muslims, "Just want to be left alone" - that still leaves 50,000 Muslims who could get pissed off do something when their religion is insulted.
Holder didn't go.
I know he didn't go for the march, but he did go to Paris -- that was Obama pretending to do something about it by sending him there.
Thank you, Mme, for posting this.
I was curious about this whole "No Go Zones" issue that sort of cropped up over the weekend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitive_urban_zone
Was shocked as shit to learn that the five around my neighborhood are under Sharia. First of all: have Never heard a Muzzein within. Second, have never been harassed for not wearing a veil, etc. They're just depressed urban areas.
Mentioned this to the Frenchie (in 92 - right between Nanterre and Boulougne-Billancourt - both formerly gritty, but highly gentrifying areas) and a couple friends in what we jokingly refer to as "Kalish Neuf Trois" - Aulnay, etc, that they were apparently Dhimmis.
They were all, "Huh?"
"Well, that's what The Americans are saying, anyway."
IOW, the real problem are those nasty "right-wingers", and Crumb is cool with another 5 million coming to France.
The whole "Lets show our courage by insulting the Muslims with a cartoon" is childish and moronic.
I lived in a predominantly Muslim neighborhood in Germany for a year. He's right about most Muslims there just wanting to live their lives. That's what I saw too. Many of them don't have the most progressive views, but they are harmless. For example, you didn't seem any Muslim women loitering about in the streets in the evenings, just the men.
How fab he moved to France.
I so want to live in Paris, but it is next to impossible for an American to gain employment there, only through a "temporary" assignment, through your employer. My employer has no offices in Paris.
So I live in Boston-the city in America that most looks like Europe.
The world should allow educated, talented professionals to live and work wherever they choose.
But yet, unemployed, no skilled muzzies, from North Africa, can live in Paris. No fair.
I can't even work in Montreal, but my hubby can!
AReasonableMan said...
tim in vermont said...
ARM, you are far too modest.
A quick and dirty IQ test is simply to ask, who is stupid enough to defend Drago?
A better question. Who would be stupid enough to take what you say seriously?
There's a surprising number of French of North African origin (Muslims, even. Maghrebin Jews and Christians were afforded French citizenship in the late 19th century - to protect them from Shariab? Not sure, but think so) who are getting behind La Mere Le Pen, whose political affiliation is better called Nationalist Socialist, than Right Wing. She's actually said herself that Obama's further Right Wing than she is.
http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2011/09/01/marine-le-pen-obama-est-plus-a-droite-que-moi_1566223_823448.html
Largely, they're worried about the BS they left in the Old Country coming to the New Country to Roost. Also, there's the Economics. Something like 1/2 of France's operating budget is Entitlements. (Hard to tease things out, but the Baby-Making Stipend, aka "allocations familliales," a product of the Vichy Gov't, is in the "Securite Sociale" - or National Health - bucket. This is a Massive thing, and really needs fixing.)
Titus, if your partner wouldn't mind, you could find a nice guy, sign a PACS, and spend a year as a "clandestine." In theory, you'd end up with residency rights. Unfortunately, you can't leave the country, and, as a clandestine, you can't legally work.
"I had the same reaction I had when 9/11 happened. I thought, “Jesus Christ, things are really going to turn ugly now.”... The right wing here is very down on the Arabs. " If hes so worried abt the right wing reaction, why is he ok with drawing the cartoons?
Rusty: "A better question. Who would be stupid enough to take what you say seriously?"
ARMeltdown is simply lashing out since his 'colonialism explains everything' schtick has been shown to be as vacuous as he.
I hope we don't end up having to add R. Crumb to the growing list of cartoonists who've colonized Algeria.
Its funny that every French party was requested to stand and UNITE FOR FREEDOM - except Le Pen.
Lets have unity!!! (except for those we really dislike).
Be: "...to protect them from Shariab? Not sure, but think so) who are getting behind La Mere Le Pen, whose political affiliation is better called Nationalist Socialist, than Right Wing. She's actually said herself that Obama's further Right Wing than she is."
This point is spot on but will be studiously ignored by our "enlightened" lefties who simply cannot conceive of a reality outside their preferred narratives.
Paul Zrimsek: "I hope we don't end up having to add R. Crumb to the growing list of cartoonists who've colonized Algeria."
Deli owners are also particularly culpable.
"Mostly" was an interesting word choice at the end there
Rcocean: Given that this was a massive demonstration of unity, I think that they didn't want any sort of grandstanding going on.
"AFTER 9-11 he thought things would get ugly.
9-11 wasn't ugly one supposes but that perennial lefty fear of a rational anti-muslim backlash (which would be completely justified) but never actually materializes is all the lefties chat about."
That leapt out at me, too. Crumb doesn't think gunning down 12 unarmed people because of some cartoons is ugly? Islam has reduced the Left to a laughingstock. Not that they weren't most of the way down that road, anyway.
Paul, having failed to address previous arguments with a full assault, is now reduced to sniping. A weaker party adopting terrorist tactics to avenge long held grudges. Sounds familiar.
Rusty said...
A better question. Who would be stupid enough to take what you say seriously?
You apparently just did.
I take a lot of crap from Drago and every now and then I might return a serve. But it's done with love. Not the man-crush man-love that Drago feels but the love you might have for a particularly dumb, but endearing, animal. An unusually slow-witted tortoise, for example.
ARMeltdown: "An unusually slow-witted tortoise, for example."
Again, we anxiously await your many examples.
Any one will do.
I don't want you to have to extend yourself what with all the deep 'western colonialism is the root cause of all evil' conjuring.
Why is a Peugot better than a Renault?
A: It burns longer!
ARMeltdown might want to start with all the threads where he embarrassed himself so thoroughly he felt compelled to go ballistic in an utter frenzy of self post-deletions.
Farber: It’s not the faith that is being insulted. It’s the extremism, the psychosis. The totalitarian impulse.
It's the interviewer that says this & not Crumb, but, oh what nonsense!
French laicite' is all about insulting religion, and always has been. Mostly the Catholics have been the target, but any faith will do. It's in the mother's milk of the Republic.
As for "extremism, psychosis, & the totalitarian impulse", both the French far right & especially the far left are past masters of all the above. If you'd like a prime example, take a gander at Althusser, but any of the big name postwar intellectuals will do in a pinch.
No, the French are really pissed off because two worthless piece of shit Algerian Muzzies walked in and blew away some satirists beloved of the French urban classes, satirists who were at the time under police guard. By unarmed policemen. Against AK-47s. Once again --- "le gouvernement travaille pour votre bonheur" --- French for "Your tax dollars at work".
PS -- Just because I slight my French kin, do not interpret that as apologetics for the terrorists. I am just a hair's breath away from being a free speech absolutist, and think that the right to free speech & freedom of conscience must include the right to bad-mouth in no uncertain terms other folk's choices of conscience & speech.
I salute the French gendarmes for assisting the brothers in their vocation to martyrdom.
"The official figures for this upsurge [in crime], doctored as they no doubt are, are sufficiently alarming.
Reported crime in France has risen from 600,000 annually in 1959 to 4 million today, while the population has grown by less than 20 percent (and many think today’s crime number is an underestimate by at least a half).
In 2000, one crime was reported for every sixth inhabitant of Paris, and the rate has increased by at least 10 percent a year for the last five years.
Reported cases of arson in France have increased 2,500 percent in seven years, from 1,168 in 1993 to 29,192 in 2000; robbery with violence rose by 15.8 percent between 1999 and 2000, and 44.5 percent since 1996 (itself no golden age).
Where does the increase in crime come from? The geographical answer: from the public housing projects that encircle and increasingly besiege every French city or town of any size, Paris especially. In these housing projects lives an immigrant population numbering several million, from North and West Africa mostly, along with their French-born descendants and a smattering of the least successful members of the French working class. From these projects, the excellence of the French public transport system ensures that the most fashionable arrondissements are within easy reach of the most inveterate thief and vandal."
Immigrant crime in Denmark and Norway.
Kerry could have been sent. He is our supposedly French-Speaking Chief Diplomat.
What is going on.
Be: "Kerry could have been sent. He is our supposedly French-Speaking Chief Diplomat"
Certainly not our "gentle" Sec of State, for obvious reasons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSoG7m1V6aw
An intelligent person would assume an uptick in "Crime" with an uptick in Population.
Be: "An intelligent person would assume an uptick in "Crime" with an uptick in Population"
In proportion to the population growth, yes, to be sure.
In fact, depending on the population thresholds reached you might even expect a % increase in crime somewhat beyond the % increase in population.
What you do not expect is a % increase in crime 4 or 5 or 6 times the % increase in population. That kind of a result requires a much deeper look into the drivers of crime.
Exact, Drago. Mes amis en France me pose la meme question trop souvent .
J'aimerais bien faire un comparison des niveaux du crime violent (par personne, bien sur) entre les Parigots et les habitants de Chicago, ou bien Los Angelis (ou bien, pourquoi pas,Houston, NYC, etc. pour ce que ca vaut.)
Crumb exposed the liberal Church's DRAT policy, while projecting the consequences onto native French. I wonder how the liberal clergy will respond to this unintentional whistleblower. At least he will lose his position as acolyte to serve the liberal elite.
As for Farber, the issue is both the faith and religion. Deference to mortal gods has been the root cause of humanity's evils. Libertine or amoral religion enables conception and proliferation of evil policies, including DRAT. I wonder what opiate the Church will feed its members to mellow them.
The liberal Church has wrought what it sought, and is now attempting to evade detection and culpability. Unfortunately, too many Europeans recognize the purpose and consequences of the Church's DRAT policy: marginalization. Survival of the fittest, I guess, is a minority policy. The Church doesn't like competition with capital and resource (e.g. human life) to question its edicts.
Et pour continuer, Monsieur le Dragon:
Je voudrais bien une division parmi les nationalites / religions des gens dans les Grandes Villes en France vis a vis les Grandes Villes equivalentes aux Etats-Unis.
"Many of them don't have the most progressive views, but they are harmless."
Except for the occasional aggrieved father.
Or homophobic father.
Or dishonored father.
Or devout father who would "do it 100 times."
You can see where this is going. There are quite a few of these, even in the USA.
Crumb is a favorite. I have stacks of underground comics from the 70’s in my downstairs bar. Mostly purchased from college bookstores. Misogynistic, subversive, pornographic but funny as hell. I doubt any of these comics are on sale at today’s college bookstores. Probably be classified as hate speech today.
Wonder Warthog and the Invasion of the Pigs from Uranus
Tales from the Leather Nun
Trashman vs Lenora Goldberg and the Fighting She Devils
Amazingly enough, my wife’s friends, who probably read and laughed at these comics back in the day, find them offensive today. I find them laugh out loud funny.
You left out one of the best quotes from Crumb.
No, you’re the only one. You don’t have journalists over there anymore, what they have is public relations people. That’s what they have over in America now. Two-hundred and fifty thousand people in public relations. And a dwindling number of actual reporters and journalists.
Thanks for this Althouse! My news aggregators are usually Instapundit and Drudge. It would have been easy to miss this gem.
Ok Be we get it!
The increase in crime rate in French cities that are comparable to US cities fare quite well in comparison to those US cities in crime rate increase/population increase.
Your point is well taken.
I notice that ARMeltdown could not be bothered to list any of the supposed innumerable examples of my "beyond the pale posts which are too problematic to be defended by anyone".
Pity. I'm sure he had dozens, nay, hundreds, of examples at the ready.
Thank you, Drago, for your understanding. MY friends in France worry more about my being shot by a gangster Back Home than my being blown up by a Jihadist.
Have actually been asked where I store my arsenal while away. (I have a locker at Logan airport, one at Dublin, just in front of the customs booth, and a third at Keflavik.)
Funny how you have to provide two links. one to the interview where they talk about Crumb's latest cartoon, and a separate link to actually see the cartoon (because the mag that published the interview won't publish his cartoon).
Satire really is dead.
How can we laugh at satirists when we know they are all holding back, and secretly sweating as to whether they have committed blasphemy?
Of course Crumb thinks the 9/11 attacks and the attack on Charlie Hebdo last week were ugly; his point is that the response by the powers who were attacked would cause things to get ugly for everyone...as, in the case of 9/11, at least, it has.
It remains to be seen how the French government will react to this massacre in their country.
"...huge population of Muslims in this country, most of whom just want to mind their own business and don’t want to be bothered."
And yet, French muslim children refused to participate in school's moment of silence for terror victims.
They don't want to be bothered, but they don't want to defend France's laws and culture either. A few people get offed by terrorists... "Eh, what's that to me?"
Perhaps the very fact that there hasn't been a "right-wing backlash" only encourages the Islamic extremists. They see us as too weak and cowardly to fight back. Perhaps if someone did lash back, those moderate Muslims who want to live in peace that we hear so much about would do something about the extremists in their religion.
Robert Cook: "Of course Crumb thinks the 9/11 attacks and the attack on Charlie Hebdo last week were ugly; his point is that the response by the powers who were attacked would cause things to get ugly for everyone...as, in the case of 9/11, at least, it has."
Please explain the impact of the Bush policies towards terrorism on Tonga.
I guess we'll simply have to wait for ARMeltdown's exhaustive list of my 'indefensible' comments.
"Very intentionally offensive, and very clear about why that couldn’t be compromised"
... That's odd. I've seen loads of disgusting, horrible cartoons drawn by Americans.
Also: Things didn't get ugly after 9-11 in the way people thought [massive demonstrations/attacks on Middle Easterners/Muslims.] It's like neither speaker has a firm grasp of reality.
Larry J.
What do you propose that moderate Muslims should or can do about the extremists in their religion?
The American response to 9/11 has certainly been some kind of (disproportionate) backlash...it hasn't done anything but make everything worse and inspire more terrorism, (abroad, not in America).
Do moderate Christians have a responsibility to "do something" about the Christian fanatics who kill abortion doctors? Assuming they wanted to do something about them, what can they do? The fanatics of any belief system scorn the moderates as heretics, or as weak or impure in their faith.
No one assumes that moderate Christians--most Christians--are in any way complicit with the acts of the extremists; it is only bigotry against Muslims that leads to the view that moderate Muslims are somehow complicit with the extremists.
(Moreover, I don't believe it is only religious belief that drives most of the extremists to violence; there must be other grievances the extremists are acting on, mixed in with and amplified by their religious fanaticism. One thing we can be certain some of them are acting on is anger and hatred at the violence unleashed on the Middle East by the America and its allies in the wake of 9/11. Seeing one's neighbors and family and friends turned into bone splinters and shredded meat by drone bombs will do a lot to radicalize people.)
Robert Cook said...
Larry J.
What do you propose that moderate Muslims should or can do about the extremists in their religion?
From what I've heard, many of them here in the US have provided information to law enforcement about terror related activities. If true, that's very commendable and exactly the right kind of thing to do. The moderates can also let their voices be heard by throwing out radical Imams from the mosques and loudly reclaiming Islam from the extremists. How's that for a start?
The American response to 9/11 has certainly been some kind of (disproportionate) backlash
What were we supposed to do? Act like the Clintons and treat it solely as a law enforcement exercise? They attacked us. We hit them back hard. What would you have done had - God forbid - you been in charge after 9/11?
Do moderate Christians have a responsibility to "do something" about the Christian fanatics who kill abortion doctors?
How many abortion doctors have been killed? From what I read last week, there have been 6 attacks in the US that resulted in 7 deaths. That's 7 deaths too many and those attacks have been denounced, but still a very small number of deaths compared to thousands killed by Islamic extremists. But do keep trying to make an equivalence.
Did you excerpt these particular quotes on purpose, or is Crumb this trite in the rest of the interview?
"What were we supposed to do? Act like the Clintons and treat it solely as a law enforcement exercise?"
Yes, as that is what it was.
"They attacked us. We hit them back hard."
Who is "they?"
The Afghanistan people? No.
The Taliban? No.
The Iraqis? No.
Saddam Hussein? No.
So, we "hit...back hard" people who had nothing to do with 9/11.
Given that our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were complete non-sequiturs if considered as responses to 9/11, one has to wonder what other agenda drove our invasions. We know the neo-Cons wanted to attack Iraq while Clinton was still in office, so we know our attack used 9/11 simply as a pretext to invade Iraq, without question. All the justifications used to attack Iraq were, from the start, obvious lies
What remains unclear is why we invaded Afghanistan. Oh, yes..."that's where bin Laden and his gang were!" Well, they fled swiftly and escaped us. Assuming we invaded Afghanistan to capture bin Laden, why did we stay after he was no longer there? Why are we there still? I can't pretend to know the reason, but is nothing to do with 9/11. Either there was (or is) some undisclosed reason why we invaded Afghanistan--even if only to open the door to war, to condition the American people to become compliant to and supportive of the idea of our sending troops to the region, preparatory to their real purpose--attacking Iraq--or they acted without reason, without purpose, simply to lash out.
Robert Cook said...What do you propose that moderate Muslims should or can do about the extremists in their religion?
Are you implying that Obama is a moderate Muslim?
On the one hand, letting the violent extremists provoke you into drawing cartoons that you wouldn't have drawn otherwise is also letting them steer the debate. But on the other hand, their violence puts you in a position where NOT drawing the cartoons (even if you weren't going to draw them initially) sends the message that you've cowed to them.
It's good to see that the vast mainstream has reacted to defend free speech, even those who found the images offensive (I haven't seen all the images, but haven't seen anything offensive in them). Maybe it'll get us to re-think lesser forms of censorship, like the campus speech bans. After all, if we can't defend speech that we don't like, then there really isn't any true freedom of speech.
The Muslims have succeeded in making the North Koreans look reasonable and balanced in their response to speech that they find offensive. The Muslims would be wise t learn from the non violent ways of the North Koreans.
“Jesus Christ, things are really going to turn ugly now.”... The right wing here is very down on the Arabs. And France has an Arab population that’s like, 5 Million, something like that – huge population of Muslims in this country, most of whom just want to mind their own business and don’t want to be bothered."
And now we see the hairy ass of Crumb. Jesus Christ almighty. Watch out Crumb. Those right wingers will come after you.....
Robert Cook said...
"What were we supposed to do? Act like the Clintons and treat it solely as a law enforcement exercise?"
Yes, as that is what it was.
Good God, you're gullible. Perhaps we should have tried to arrest the Japanese for attacking Pearl Harbor, right? Perhaps you're an idealistic lawyer who thinks that all things are legal matters. Perhaps you're a wanna be who has watched too many episodes of "Law & Order." You have little connection with the cold, cruel, hard world. Fortunately for you, there are rough men who do the necessary things to protect your sorry ass, thing you'd never have the guts or ability to do for yourself.
"They attacked us. We hit them back hard."
Who is "they?"
The Afghanistan people? No.
The Taliban? No.
The Taliban gave Al Queda save haven to plan and organize the attack. Even Mao wrote in his Little Red Book about the value of having a safe haven from which to attack.
The Iraqis? No.
Saddam Hussein? No.
That was a separate issue. Saddam was funding terrorism.
So, we "hit...back hard" people who had nothing to do with 9/11.
The Taliban helped Al Queda so they did in fact have something to do with 9/11.
"Perhaps we should have tried to arrest the Japanese for attacking Pearl Harbor, right?"
Japan was a nation who attacked us with their military.
9/11 was perpetrated by stateless terrorists. Does the distinction elude you?
"The Taliban gave Al Queda save haven to plan and organize the attack."
Bin Laden and his gang were guests of the Taliban; there is no evidence the Taliban had any idea what they were planning to do.
When we asked the Taliban to turn over bin Laden and his gang, the Taliban did not refuse, as some claim (and may even believe), they simply asked for evidence bin Laden was responsible for the 9/11 attacks, as is customary in any extradition request.
We did not provide any evidence--(perhaps we had none to provide?)--but simply decided to attack. This is not how lawful nations behave.
"The Taliban helped Al Queda so they did in fact have something to do with 9/11."
There is no evidence this is true.
Robert Cook said...
"The Taliban helped Al Queda so they did in fact have something to do with 9/11."
There is no evidence this is true.
There is ample evidence that the Taliban granted Al Queda - a terrorist organization - safe haven in their territory. You just think that terrorists shouldn't be treated any different than common criminals. That's a serious stupid way to look at the world.
We keep hearing about your average-Joe Muslim who just wants to be left alone, but what about the majority of Muslims who have been told and taught by the largest Islamic organization in the world that any irreverence is automatically hate speech, and cannot be tolerated?
"...what about the majority of Muslims who have been told and taught by the largest Islamic organization in the world that any irreverence is automatically hate speech, and cannot be tolerated?"
What about Christians who have been taught that God created the world in 7 days and humankind sprang forth from two forbears, Adam and Eve who lived in a Garden of Eden, and to whom a serpent spoke, causing their defiance of God and expulsion from paradise?
Most accept that such tales are fables, and do not take them seriously.
Robert Cook said...What do you propose that moderate Muslims should or can do about the extremists in their religion?
At this point "moderate muslim" is an irrelevent term. We, who are not moderate muslims, will be forced to deal with it ourselves.
"At this point 'moderate muslim' is an irrelevent term.
Hardly.
"We, who are not moderate muslims, will be forced to deal with it ourselves."
We have been "dealing" with the problem of extremist Muslims for a dozen years and counting, badly, and to ever-worsening results.
Crumb has started, and maybe finished, an illustrated version of the Bible. I have seen only Genesis. It is a reasonably accurate and respectful depiction of the text. It is still, of course, in his inimitable style.
I don't know his religion, but he knows the Bible.
"Crumb has started, and maybe finished, an illustrated version of the Bible. I have seen only Genesis. It is a reasonably accurate and respectful depiction of the text. It is still, of course, in his inimitable style.
"I don't know his religion, but he knows the Bible"
Crumb was raised a catholic, but he has no formal religion now, and is agnostic.
He does not plan to do any more books of the Bible than Genesis. He never intended to do more than Genesis, but it took him four years to complete it, so even had he had greater ambitions, they might have been dampened by the time and labor involved.
I saw a show of all his original pages of Genesis at a gallery here in Manhattan. It was amazing to see, and the display of all the pages ringed around three walls of an airplane-hangar-sized gallery space made as clear as a punch in the face how huge an endeavor it was. More impressive is that Crumb maintained the same quality throughout; he never hacked it out or rushed it, but expended great care on every page, every drawing. He's a pro, and proud of his work!
Robert Cook said...
"At this point 'moderate muslim' is an irrelevent term.
Hardly.
Oh. Yes. Very.
"We, who are not moderate muslims, will be forced to deal with it ourselves."
We have been "dealing" with the problem of extremist Muslims for a dozen years and counting, badly, and to ever-worsening results.
None the less, we are.
Robert Cook said...
Larry J.
What do you propose that moderate Muslims should or can do about the extremists in their religion?
And what is your answer, Robert? Nothing? Fight the power, power being the USA or Western Civilization? Snitches get stitches?
It's impossible to imagine the world you want to live in, or think we do. The question is only whether you are knave or fool.
Charlie Hebdo you very disgusting, you are harassed man with pornographic images. especially that you abused is a picture of religious leaders. money is not everything, look for sources of news that has ethics. I'll see you in hell ^^ from: Dan
"'We have been "dealing" with the problem of extremist Muslims for a dozen years and counting, badly, and to ever-worsening results.'
"None the less, we are."
So you subscribe to the delusion that "doing something" is better than doing nothing, even when the something is ruinously stupid, malign, wasteful, destructive, murderous, and harmful to oneself?
No surprise there.
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