June 27, 2013

Rachel Jeantel made it sound like Travon Martin profiled George Zimmerman... or... what is a "creepy ass cracker"?



TalkLeft describes "a train wreck" witness:
She said (on direct exam no less by the prosecutor) that shortly after first spotting Zimmerman, Martin described Zimmerman to her as a "Creepy-a*s Cracker" and later, described Zimmerman a few times as "this ni*ga" (as in this ni*ga following him.) The two minute clip above is of Rachel and the prosecutor repeating creepy a*s cracker over and over as the court reporter struggles to make out what she's saying, Rachel explaining that creepy as* cracker means a white person, then and expressing concern the creepy guy might be a rapist.
So "cracker" is a way of saying white guy, but "ni*ga" is apparently just a way to say guy? I can understand that, but I'd like to ask a few questions — out of curiosity. I'm not saying the defense lawyer should ask this on cross-examination. (Which should make for some interesting TV today.) I'd like to know whether perhaps Trayvon Martin perceived Zimmerman as a person of color and not a white man at all. You assume that there's no way he'd say "cracker" if he didn't see him as white? But he didn't say "cracker." He said "creepy ass cracker." I understand the use of "ass" as an intensifier connected to the adjective "creepy." Creepy-ass cracker, as in very creepy cracker.

But "ass" could go with "cracker" — "ass-cracker." The conversation continued, according to Jeantel: "So... he told me the man was looking at him, so I had to think it might have been a rapist."

Why rapist? A man raping a man? How common is that as a fear? But it was the first thing Jeantel thought to say after he said creepy-ass cracker/creepy ass-cracker. The term "ass cracker" could easily mean a man who rapes a man, especially one who goes after a teenaged boy.

Urban Dictionary has some definitions of "ass cracker" that predate this trial:
1. ass cracker...
One who not knowing the code or combination to a particular slice of ass is nonetheless able to get inside the ass...

2. Ass Cracker...
One who engages in anal sex.
That wanker is an ass cracker.

3. Ass Cracker...
A term used to describe a man with a large enough penis, to brake the anus of the woman or man he is having anal intercourse with.
"Damn, his's cock is so big, he is definatly an ass cracker!"
The word "creepy" makes special sense if you reinterpret the "ass" to go with "cracker." Martin said a man was following him, looking at him. He might have thought Zimmerman was a man out looking for sex and was watching him for that reason. What conversations had Martin had in the past with Jeantel about worries of this kind. She "had to think it might have been a rapist."

TalkLeft says:
She describes how Martin was "right by his father's house" after he lost Zimmerman, and refused to run home. I think he had plenty of time to go home, he obviously chose not to....
Why didn't Martin take Jeantel's advice and run home? The rapist/ass-cracker theory makes sense of Martin's decision to go after Zimmerman. If he saw Zimmerman as a sexual predator, he might think confrontation was a good idea or even an important step: These creeps in the neighborhood need to know that I'm not their prey. It's not enough to run inside daddy's house. My manhood must be established here and now or I can't walk free around here anymore.

574 comments:

1 – 200 of 574   Newer›   Newest»
Freder Frederson said...

Why didn't Martin take Jeantel's advice and run home?

What and be a pussy and not stand his ground like a real Florida Man?

You can't both defend stand your ground and condemn it at the same time. Well I guess you can. Consistency has never been your strong suit.

pduggie said...

So... Trayvon attacked Zimmerman because of gay panic?

Bruce Hayden said...

Apparently the prosecution is blaming Martin's apparent over active homophobia for his confrontation with Zimmerman, and ultimately his death. If he had just been more tolerant, he might still be alive today.

pduggie said...

In the vernacular patois of some black youth "crazy-ass" is much a more common construction and should be assumed. Notwithstanding this fine XKCD comic

http://xkcd.com/37/

The other possibility is just deconstructionist argle-bargle.

Pogo said...

If only Trayvon had waited for the DOMA decision.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

You can't both defend stand your ground and condemn it at the same time. Well I guess you can. Consistency has never been your strong suit.


Your ignorance of the facts and the law is comedic.

Why are you commenting?

Icepick said...

No Limit Niggas hate teh gays. But that was okay back then, as the SCOTUS hadn't ruled on DOMA yet.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

The likelihood of his having said 'creepy ass-cracker' over 'creepy-ass cracker' is approximately zero, Professor.

Icepick said...

Seriously, a guy that styles himself a No Limit Nigga is not going to run away from a booty burglar if he can at all avoid it, especially when one of his girls was on the phone.

Jay said...

Nothing substantive to support a Murder 2 charge has come about since this:


"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."

Zimmerman should have never been arrested.

Gahrie said...

You are waaaay over analyzing this.

The term she was using was creepy-ass cracker.

The "ass" is a modifer to "creepy", denoting emphasis and disdain at the same time. Cracker does indeed refer to a White man.

"Nigga", as opposed to "nigger" roughly means "individual". Depending on enunciation and context, the word can be both positive or negative, in a manner similar to the use of the word "bad".

ricpic said...

....Rachel explaining that creepy as* cracker means a white man...

Of course there will never be an exploration by Althouse of the centrality of endemic black racism to America's race problem. That would be UGLY.

Matthew Sablan said...

"You can't both defend stand your ground and condemn it at the same time."

-- Stand your ground only applies if one is under attack. It is not standing one's ground to seek out an altercation. For example, if you come to my house because I was mean to you on Althouse, you're not "standing your ground" because you think I might hurt you in the future.

This is really some fairly basic stuff folks.

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bender said...

So the witness confirms that it was Martin who was the aggressor, not George.

Jay said...

So Ms. Jeantel, the state's key witness:

1. Sent sexually suggestive text messages to a minor.
2. Lied to the Martin family
3. Already has lied under oath
4. Demonstrated an inability to communicate in any clear manner
5. Said that she "maybe" thought Trayvon was yelling for help after telling the defense under oath it was Trayvon.
6. Threatened to not show up tomorrow - West said he might need "several more hours" for Jeantel on cross and Jeantel bursts out "WHAT?"

Icepick said...

The likelihood of his having said 'creepy ass-cracker' over 'creepy-ass cracker' is approximately zero, Professor.

That's true. -ass as a suffix is pretty common in Southern areas. (Perhaps it is elsewhere, too, but I'm not from other places.)

Jay said...

You can't both defend stand your ground and condemn it at the same time

This isn't a SYG case, idiot.

Scott M said...

And there are those that think academics overthink things...

Ass-cracker is not in the current (or any prior, that I'm aware of) vernacular, at least not in a way that describes a rapist. Martin was referring to Zimmerman as a very creepy white man. Full stop.

Bruce Hayden said...

Interesting that homophobia and the gay angle came out the day that DOMA was struck down. The internal contradiction is that many of those supporting Martin the strongest (and wanting Zimmerman incarcerated for a long time) would otherwise be apoplectic hearing such homophobic and gay-hating/bashing language.

Of course the reality is that there is apparently significantly less tolerance or like of esp. male homosexuality in the Black community than most elsewhere in our society. And, yes, Martin was at an age when a lot of males are insecure about their sexuality, and thus often tend to high levels of homophobia.

Finally, I normally don't like the use of the word "homophobia", etc, because for many it is more a moral issue than anything, and isn't about fear of gays, but rather the teachings of their religion. But it does seem appropriate here with Martin.

rhhardin said...

Nigga must mean both person up to no good though perhaps at best nothing at all, and black person.

Black person is the head meaning and person up to no good etc is an implication that now makes up its own sense.

AprilApple said...

"Nig*a"?
I hope Martin loses his job at the food network.

Matthew Sablan said...

While, yes, every report I've read has made it sound like the prosecution's case is... flawed at the core, let's say, I think this whole reinterpretation of cracker might be a bit of a reach.

pduggie said...

Steve Sailer called this back last year.

I also find it interesting that on my news, we had the 'quote' that she testified he said "creepy". But we didn't get the whole quote.

Jay said...

She's back on the stand:

West: "You don't think "crazy-ass cracker" is racial?"
Jeantel: "No."

traditionalguy said...

Interesting word analysis. I never heard ass cracker used to mean a gay stalker. I have often heard it used as an epithet for an un reconstructed southern white man...the Atlanta Baseball Team, pre-Milwaukee Braves imported, were The Atlanta Crackers, and proud of it.

Where do 100% of the cable TV shows get this sudden anti-vulgarity code from. They bleep out all of the language that can be accused of being vulgar. Cable is famous for bad words. So WTF?

On NBC Nightly News'coverage they permitted the ass word un-bleeped and that's not suddenly virgin ears cable.

pduggie said...

There never ARE SYG cases. If its SYG, there is no case, which is what this was till the prosecutor got pushed into overzealous mode.

AprilApple said...

The hip image consultants at the Hillary! campaign mind-consortium (paid for by friends of Marc Rich), just tweeted that Hillary is also a "Creepy ass cracker".

Icepick said...

The internal contradiction is that many of those supporting Martin the strongest (and wanting Zimmerman incarcerated for a long time) would otherwise be apoplectic hearing such homophobic and gay-hating/bashing language.

This wouldn't cause any apoplexy, because the left has traditionally given black people a pass for behaving badly. This would just be another small entry on a very long ledger.

Adam said...

In agreement with at least 2 other comments above. "ass" is an add-on to many words at least in the South. "White-ass MF", "dumb-ass fool" "creepy-ass cracker". It's definitely not ass-cracker.

Jay said...

This barely literate example of public school education claims for what Zimmerman said are different in letter than in today' testimony

Sorun said...

Isn't it really creepy ass half-cracker? Now look at who's making racial assumptions.

Mitchell the Bat said...

Travon Martin's provocative attire is to blame.

Hagar said...

For all the histrionics at this trial, the prosecution really is running against the Sanford Police Dept., not the defense counsel.

Matthew Sablan said...

Honestly, if I hadn't been following this case, and someone told me about the cracker exchange in court, I'd have thought it was satire. So many of the witnesses have been sloppy/forgetful that I can't believe we're where we are.

Skeptical Voter said...

Ah who knew that Rachel er "Dee Dee" had a boyfriend on the down low.

X said...

I want to hear the NSA recording

Icepick said...

If its SYG, there is no case, which is what this was till the prosecutor got pushed into overzealous mode.

That's not correct. Zimmerman could have called for a SYG hearing before the trial. Zimmerman's attorneys declined to do so. Presumably it was because they couldn't PROVE that Zimmerman was simply defending himself, and SYG hearings require the person making the claim to PROVE the claim. And in attempting to prove it, the defense team may well have given away ammunition to the prosecution - and pissed off the judge.

The problem with this case is that there are about two minutes that can't be well documented: from the time Zimmerman got off the phone with the 911 operator until the time of the gunshot that killed Martin. There are partial eyewitness accounts of what happened right before the gunshot (and as seen yesterday, those accounts are problematical), and there is evidence of a scuffle. Who started the fight and how is unclear.

And it is that lack of clarity that could (should, in a just society) get Zimmerman off - his account is at least as plausible as any other. The state's claim that Zimmerman was hunting himself some nigger scalps is stupid on so many levels.

But no one really knows what happened in those two minutes, other than possibly Zimmerman. And it is at least possible that Zimmerman's memories aren't too clear on the matter either. People are unreliable witnesses even when they don't have any self-interest in the matter.

MadisonMan said...

Nigga seems, to me, like the word Dude. All purpose.

But I'm just a crazy-ass weirdo. That being said, whatever-ass is just ass vernacular. Add ass to whatever adjective you want, and you underscore it.

Creepy-ass. Drippy-ass.

Icepick said...

Of course, the NSA has metadata on the phones of the two individuals in question. If that data can track data down to a couple of feet we could at least see there movements. Did Martin hide and then jump out at Zimmerman? Did Martin stop and Zimmerman run or walk up to Martin? Such data could be very useful in this case as to establishing who confronted who.

Patrick said...

Dumb ass.

EMD said...

FYI:

White Hispanics are "crackers."
Non-White Hispanics are "spics"

Or something like that.

Mitchell the Bat said...

Down the shore we'd catch something called an oyster cracker. Lots of nasty teeth. I think it's called a toad fish, some places. You don't find it in a glass bowl on your table at the raw bar along with the cocktail sauce.

Not to be confused with a sea robin, which was relatively benign, IIRC.

It was quite some time ago, you creepy ass-cracker, you.

Freder Frederson said...

This isn't a SYG case, idiot.

Just a couple weeks ago many commenters (including you I believe), Althouse and Instapundit got all bent out of shape when a junior high student was reprimanded for intervening in a fight that he was not involved in. Now you are contemplating why Martin didn't just run away when he felt threatened.

Titus said...

Dear Lord.

I am amazed that these trials interest Americans.

BTW what is going on with her hair?

EMD said...

The rapist/ass-cracker theory makes sense of Martin's decision to go after Zimmerman.

STOP BEING SO DUMB. PLEASE.

Bryan C said...

So Trayvon Martin was a racist homophobe who was killed in self-defense while committing a brutal hate-crime against George Zimmerman.

AJ Lynch said...

Thank God Althouse is not on the jury.

EMD said...

Just a couple weeks ago many commenters (including you I believe), Althouse and Instapundit got all bent out of shape when a junior high student was reprimanded for intervening in a fight that he was not involved in. Now you are contemplating why Martin didn't just run away when he felt threatened.

Because the scenarios were exactly the same?

Yeezus.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

Just a couple weeks ago many commenters (including you I believe), Althouse and Instapundit got all bent out of shape when a junior high student was reprimanded for intervening in a fight that he was not involved in


Huh?

Can you stop posting stupid, nonsensical shit?

Icepick said...

In agreement with at least 2 other comments above. "ass" is an add-on to many words at least in the South. "White-ass MF", "dumb-ass fool" "creepy-ass cracker".

My favorite was always "faggoty-assed" - as in faggoty-assed clothes, faggoty-ased car, faggoty-assed scruff (face two days after the last shave, ala Don Johnson). Heard that a lot back in the '80s as the Miami Vice look started spreading but before it took over the world. And yes, sometimes it was directed at me. (I had a fondness for pink shirts in particular. Not sure why I stopped wearing them, actually.)

Ah, good times! FUN times - unlike this dour decade of the non-black black Scold in Chief.

betamax3000 said...

Salami-Hating Ritz-Ass Crackers. Cheez-Whiz, Fool.

Mitchell the Bat said...

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Niggah Fish.

Astro said...

I might as well throw this in, to muddy the water even further on these terms: the Negro League Baseball Team that used to be based in Atlanta was known as 'The Crackers'.
So yes, there were Black Crackers.
Cue up some Muddy Waters music.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...
Now you are contemplating why Martin didn't just run away when he felt threatened.


No, I'm wondering why idiots like you aren't willing to change their minds on this case when every bit of the stupid "Justice for Trayvon" narrative has been demonstrated to be false.

But of course you're busy trying to compare someone attacking a bully with a knife in their own school room (in Canada, no less) with someone who decided not to run away from this apparent "wannabe cop" menacing his own neighborhood with a gun.

Again, can you stop posting dumb shit?

Paul Zrimsek said...

You're overlooking the fact that the whole anal-rapist idea was Jeantel's, not Martin's. Believe me, the possibility is not one that would even occur to any guy outside of prison.

Icepick said...

Can you stop posting stupid, nonsensical shit?

That should be "nonsensical-ASSED shit".

X said...

Her recitation of events during the shooting was almost identical to her version to the prosecutor. It seemed memorized, she even used the same word choices in multiple places.

this is worth analyzing. like the dysentery testimony in the movie Time Limit. especially considering her vocabulary.

EMD said...

Will we get a Rachel Jeantel autotune out of this?

Because frankly, that's all that matters.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Althouse and Instapundit got all bent out of shape when a junior high student was reprimanded for intervening in a fight that he was not involved in. Now you are contemplating why Martin didn't just run away when he felt threatened."

-- You have the right to defend others who are in immediate harm. If, however, I learn that two people are going to fight at the flag pole after gym class, I can't break their knee caps to preemptively stop a fight.

It is like you say things without thinking them through. This case is not like that one.

Sean Gleeson said...

Well, I'm not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old creepy ass-cracker.

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Icepick said...

Salami-Hating Ritz-Ass Crackers. Cheez-Whiz, Fool.

Good to see someone getting it! You just have to say "fool" correctly, like Coolio at the end of the "Fantastic Voyage" video. Or Mr. T, anytime he said it.

Mitchell the Bat said...

Lemme ass you a question.

Does this hairdo make me look like a pin head?

Scott M said...

Nigga seems, to me, like the word Dude. All purpose.

Wrong. There are not skin-color restrictions on "dude". Anyone can freely use it without losing their Food Network show. Not so, "nigga".

bagoh20 said...

Please tell us you're kidding. Is Madison really that far into the tundra that you don't even speak the same language as us sun people.

"Ass" doesn't modify anything. It's just a speech mannerism. People, especially but not exclusively Blacks, put "ass" in the middle of a lot of phrases where it means nothing. For example: "that brother is one cheating ass niger", or he was driving a "low ass ride" or "get your bitch ass shoes off my humidor". It's just a way of making any phrase more "urban", and adding some umph.

Icepick said...

Will we get a Rachel Jeantel autotune out of this?

Oh, dear God, no. Just NO.

EMD said...

Will we get a Rachel Jeantel autotune out of this?

Oh, dear God, no. Just NO.


Oh come on, her name RHYMES.

traditionalguy said...

West is repeating her answers demanding she. Acknowledge her story. The Judge is agreeing to objections, but he keeps it up and pleads he is the victim.

That is not going to work on the jury.

West actually apologized to Jenteal for being harsh and offered that he is not saying she did anything wrong, to which she repeated that back to him, that she knows she did nothing wrong.

Of course West is pounding herewith the set up, shame and grandstanding of catching her in the crime of perjury.

That's not going to work. West is grandstanding rather than trying to win.

Jay said...

Ms. Jeantel just got a laugh by calling prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda "the bald headed dude"

Icepick said...

"get your bitch ass shoes of my humidor"

LMAO! (Now what the Hell am I supoposed to sit on.)

Good to see that other Sun Peoples use that construction. But it isn't urban at all - it's a rural Southern construction, and I heard old white people using it way back in the day, people who spent most of their lives in the segregated South. Like a lot of things attributed to "urban" blacks, it's a more generalized Southern thing.

madAsHell said...

I'll assume that this is her best performance after several weeks of coaching.

Trayvon must be spinning in his grave.
"No, she ain't my girlfriend!!!"

Clayton Hennesey said...

Martians might interpret the phrase as "creepy ass-cracker".

Earthlings, particularly those who live among and socialize with African-Americans understand she was saying "creepy-ass cracker", cracker being the equivalent of the N-word for white people.

Do any of the people evaluating George Zimmerman actually know any black people, or are black people only something they enjoy watching on The Discovery Channel, like wombats and polar bears?

dreams said...

"In agreement with at least 2 other comments above. "ass" is an add-on to many words at least in the South. "White-ass MF", "dumb-ass fool" "creepy-ass cracker". It's definitely not ass-cracker."

Me too.

Candle said...

I do not understand why all of you are ganging up on Trever Martin. This is intoleration at it's purist form :( How would you like it if one day you had a cracker and someone took it, then shot you with a weapon and/or gun, then ran off? Didn't think so. Whatever.

chrisnavin.com said...

Creepy-ass cracker probably just meant weird-ass dude, the creepy referring to the following behavior (cracker a descriptive term as much as anything).

I'm reading 'rapist' more as hyperbole showing her concern for him out after dark, describing the situation.

Trayvon decided to confront him, apparently. A fateful decision. Still a little tragic that someone lost their life over this.

MadisonMan said...

There are not skin-color restrictions on "dude". Anyone can freely use it without losing their Food Network show. Not so, "nigga".

Dude! I meant when blacks used it (the word nigga). Seems very dude-like to me.

Duuude.

Sorun said...

Obama: "If I had a son, he'd talk like Trayvon."

Icepick said...

How would you like it if one day you had a cracker and someone took it, then shot you with a weapon and/or gun, then ran off? Didn't think so. Whatever.

You're pleading for a Stand Your Cracker defense for Trayvon?

X said...

it's a homophobic cookbook!

Jay said...

This witness’ inability to read or write cursive handwriting – demonstrates the standard of teaching in public schools today.

Thank a union!

Jay said...

If Obama had a daughter, she'd look and sound like Jeantel...

AllenS said...

So, is it ok now to call black people (Negroes), niggas?

Icepick said...

Still a little tragic that someone lost their life over this.

I'd say "stupid" instead of "tragic". But I continue to contend that this is all the result of bad luck and two stupid decisions. (Zimmerman getting out of his truck, Martin confronting Zimmerman instead of running for it.)

Icepick said...

So, is it ok now to call black people (Negroes), niggas?

That depends on (a) how deep is your tan, (b) are there any around and (c) exactly how tough/suicidal you are.

Amartel said...

This is really an unbelievable interpretation. Jeantel was just asked if she thought "creepy ass cracker" was a racial slur. She said no but she smiled when she said it. Lying.

MadisonMan said...

So, is it ok now to call black people (Negroes), niggas?

Only if you are black.

Now, I don't know if it's acceptable if you're half-black. I suppose it depends if you're more Jenny Willis than Allan Willis.

edutcher said...

OK, looks like there's a lot of over-analysis here.

Maybe, unlike the Lefty lynch mob which is looking worse and worse the more we learn about "Trayvon", young Mr Martin saw Zimmerman as the Hispanic he was, "white Hispanic" being the same sort of Gray Lady fantasy as Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.

Crazy ass is the same construction as smart ass, wise ass, lazy ass, etc.

AllenS said...

Wait a minute, niggas. Is it crazy ass, cracker or crazy, ass cracker?

Paul Zrimsek said...

Does this mean Elizabeth Warren is a creepy-ass minority?

traditionalguy said...

Living around mixed population in Miami area that rub elbows with Haitians, Cubans, Crackers, Jews. From New York City, and a few midwestern tourists makes Jenteal's communication style less rediculous.

The jury has no problem with her, but West is making them dislike him.

Marshal said...

Freder Frederson said...

What and be a pussy and not stand his ground like a real Florida Man?

You can't both defend stand your ground and condemn it at the same time.


Freder once again proves his inability to understand basic concepts by confusing "standing your ground" with attacking someone.

Ann Althouse said...

I don't know why commenters keep telling me about an interpretation that I acknowledge as the presumed interpretation as if I can't understand that! I say: "So "cracker" is a way of saying white guy, [and] "ni*ga" is apparently... a way to say guy" and "I understand the use of "ass" as an intensifier connected to the adjective "creepy." Creepy-ass cracker, as in very creepy cracker."

Why are people acting like I didn't write that?

I then go on to say there is an alternate explanation and that it explains Jeantel's "rapist" idea and Martin's decision to confront.

Don't tell me "full stop" and so forth as if the presumed interpretation is the only way we can think about it. This is a criminal trial where the prosecution has the burden of proof and the factfinder must presume innocence.

Now, please proceed with a discussion that takes that seriously and quit lecturing me about the first interpretation, which I *obviously* understand.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Now, I don't know if it's acceptable if you're half-black."

-- Half acceptable, like when you have the right answer in math class but didn't show your work.

Ann Althouse said...

And please stop responding to the first comment, which is flat-out trolling, not related to the post. If I'd read the comments earlier (instead of starting to watch the trial) I would have deleted that.

If there is more responding to Freder, I will delete his comment along with all comments that respond to him.

Let's get this thread on track.

AllenS said...

How can we have a discussion, if you keep interrupting?

Clayton Hennesey said...

So, is it ok now to call black people (Negroes), niggas?

Only if you are black.


Actually, in the United States it's okay now to call anybody anything you want.

Letting other people tell you what words you can use is volunteering to become what is called someone's "bitch".

chrisnavin.com said...

That's what's got people so upset, is that a young, healthy man is dead over something so trivial and unnecessary. The severity of it touches the tragic, despite the facts and the law.

There's a deep well of injustice there, and not a lot of cool-headed logic.

Florida's race relations don't help, nor the genuine sense amongst black folks that forces are aligned against them. No one gives a fuck who you are, your circumstances, your reasons for being there, nor if you're guilty or innocent, even if Trayvon was casing condos which he wasn't. There are enough young black men in Florida with some drug/robbery/gang/thug/street contact.

Of course, political and ideological interests dragged this out for their own purposes and have profited as per usual. The media followed the path of least resistance and sentimentality.

I wish a few of those folks would get a taste of their own medicine, having someone else turn them into a caricature and cause celebre during a murder trial.

edutcher said...

Don't know about anybody else, but I was referring to the TalkLeft paragraph at the top of the post.

I think the sexual connotation may be influenced by a desire to give Martin a justification, however tenuous, for his attack.

PS I meant, by using the term, nigga, Martin saw Z as another non-white and not a "white Hispanic".

Ann Althouse said...

"BTW what is going on with her hair?"

While it may be an attempt to look fashionable -- like Michelle Obama -- I think she may be resistant to this public scrutiny and putting a screen between herself and those who are trying to gaze into her eyes.

I'm watching the trial and she has admitted to many lies and half-truths, including a direct "yes, sir" to a question about lying under oath.

She's being forced to testify and has no option to escape right now.

The defense attorney is sympathizing with her (and her empathy for Martin's mother).

Bob Ellison said...

Maybe the confusion is in the word "cracker". He might have been comparing Zimmerman to the Atlanta Crackers. Floyd "Creepy" Wallingford, shortstop on the team, was known for sneaking slowly from base to base while the pitcher wasn't looking.

Jay said...

So if you're a white woman sitting on the jury, what do you make of the continuted references to cracka and ni**er?

Left Bank of the Charles said...

If you think a pervert is stalking you, you don't go home, because then the pervert knows where you live.

The police were on the way, but Trayvon Martin didn't know that. George Zimmerman never identified himself as on neighborhood watch.

Do we have two actors, each justified in using force against the other?

bagoh20 said...

"Don't tell me "full stop" and so forth as if the presumed interpretation is the only way we can think about it. "

You have lost your mind. Nobody uses "Ass cracker" for gay rapist. There are no gay rapists stalking the street. Nobody thinks that, and it's so absurd, you need to be shamed for being such a crazy ass professor. BTW, "ass professor" is not a lecturing proctologist in the language of the other.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Do we have two actors, each justified in using force against the other?"

-- Nope. You don't have justification to use force because "dude looks creepy;" you do have justification to use force because "dude is beating my head into the concrete."

Candle said...

Excuse me but I don't like how you are trying him in the court of pubic opinion. YOU are not the JUDGE here. If I had my way Trever Martin would be free to decide his innocense, not obvious conservative people who are oppresive.

Thank you

EMD said...

I then go on to say there is an alternate explanation and that it explains Jeantel's "rapist" idea and Martin's decision to confront.

I don't buy the alternate explanation or that Rachel Jeantel's use of the terminology supports the rapist idea ... but just keep linking to Urban Dictionary.

Anthony said...

Why would Martin describe Zimmerman as a "creepy-ass cracker" instead of a "crazy-ass cracker"? (Discount the possibility that Martin meant "creepy ass-cracker".) "Creepy" these days usually refers to people perceived as sexual predators, or at least as looking for sex they're too ugly or socially inept to get.

EMD said...

Bagoh's response was more direct and effective.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

A other possibility is that Trayvon Martin made a wrong turn in an unfamiliar neighborhood where all the buildings look alike. He may have been lost, without even realizing it, and unable to run home. Which was, after all, not his home but someone else's home.

Matthew Sablan said...

"If I had my way Trever Martin would be free to decide his innocense, not obvious conservative people who are oppresive."

-- Martin is not on trial.

bagoh20 said...

"obvious conservative people"

Ouch!

Hey, can she talk like that in here? That's out of line. Are there no standards of decency anymore?

annk said...

If she were Paula Dean, her life would be ruined without a second thought.

Matthew Sablan said...

"He may have been lost, without even realizing it, and unable to run home"

-- This is possible. It just makes it a bit more tragic. A lot of mistakes happened that night, on everyone's parts.

edutcher said...

Jay said...

So if you're a white woman sitting on the jury, what do you make of the continuted references to cracka and ni**er?

Paula Deen is not alone.

Matthew Sablan said...

Honestly, the jury probably cares more about why she lied about so many things more than if she said things to offend them.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Candle said...

Matthew Sablan:
No "matthew" it is YOU who ARE ON TRIAL.

bagoh20:
Typical "man" forcing your interpretation of "decency" on me. i pitty you.

AReasonableMan said...

This witness is a disaster for the defense. She is clearly too dumb to lie in a convincing way. The small social lies that they reveal merely confirm this. Her credibility over the primary issues remains completely unimpeached.

traditionalguy said...

The jurors want to know what happened. Jenteal offered that and they believe her. It is her authenticity that counts to them. It is not a legal analysis of lying under oath barring their belief in her. Really it's not.

AReasonableMan said...

If you actually watch the testimony Jeantel is clearly making a joke with the rape comment. Two teenagers making fun of a creepy-ass cracker, the most poetically correct description I have heard of Zimmerman to date.

Bob Ellison said...

Matthew Sablan said, "Honestly, the jury probably cares more about why she lied about so many things more than if she said things to offend them."

This seems to refer to the notion that jurors tend to take false testimony as always unreliable. I understand that lawyers tend to think that, and that smart people often think that, but I've long wondered whether lawyers are incorrect in assuming that jurors will reliably think that. Bill Clinton lied his crazy ass off, but most people still trusted him then and trust him now.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Her credibility over the primary issues remains completely unimpeached."

-- ... Well, that's ONE interpretation. The other is that she is a habitual liar with an obsession over Martin and has been willing to lie in the past to embellish herself and him.

Look, just like every other witness the prosecution has put up, the case isn't there. One insists there were three gunshots, one insists that she only thought Martin was smaller because of pictures, but that she can't be sure who was on top; and now this witness has admitted to lying about a series of details and not really being able to recall what Martin said to her on the phone.

EMD said...

Candle is my favorite new-ish commenter.

Very astute and perspicacious!

Candle said...

AReasonableMan:
Oh I see, so all womyn are "dumb". I can't even summon up the empathy to think about you. Since when, hello?

X said...

NO YOU'RE OUT OP ORDER MATTHEW SABLAN

Ann Althouse said...

It doesn't matter whether Martin should have run away or would have been smarter to run away. The issue in the case is about the step Zimmerman took, shooting him. Martin is dead, and that is a misfortune, but it's not a question to be resolved. The issue isn't what Martin really thought or wanted to do other than as it relates to Zimmerman's perceptions and beliefs. The situation could very well have been 2 men misinterpreting things, but the question to be answered is about Zimmerman's culpability. We're trying to figure out what he perceived, that is what it outwardly looked like. And the burden of proof is on the prosecutor.

EMD said...

The jurors want to know what happened. Jenteal offered that and they believe her.

Give it a break. You have no clue what the jury believes at this point.

Matthew Sablan said...

"NO YOU'RE OUT OP ORDER MATTHEW SABLAN"

OBJECTION! This piece of evidence clearly contradicts the witness's statement!

Candle said...

EMD:
No, there were not EMD's in Bush's war, how about you give that up right now? You people disgust me. 4 years later and still going on about it huh? Get back to the topic ok? And stop.

jr565 said...

That is the big question the hurts trsyvon the most- he was home (home bein the home he was staying it) why didnt he just go inside and if he thought someone was following him call the cops. He went back to confront Zimmerman.

Even his gf was asking why he didnt go inside. It sounds extremely paranoid.

And he's calling the guy a crazy ass cracka? Cracka sounds a mite bit racist to me.

bagoh20 said...

Look, there was only one mistake made, and that was by the person who chose to start a physical assault. There was nothing wrong with Zimmerman watching someone, or getting out of his vehicle in his own neighborhood. Martin also did nothing wrong until, as I suspect, he attempted to knock out Zimmerman. That was his goal. You can tell from stuff he put in his social media accounts he was a bit smitten with fighting and the whole knock out thing where you knock a guy out with one punch, often a sucker punch they don't see. He was hoping to brag about that, and I suspect it was why he kept his girlfriend on the phone - as a witness to his glorious knock out of some crazy ass cracker.

Without the decision to attack first, nobody dies, nobody gets hurt. That was the only thing done wrong by anyone, and Martin did it, and he paid for it.

Mitchell the Bat said...

(1) I once heard a white guy refer to ejaculating as "cracking a nut," as in, "Boy, that's a great-looking girl and I'd really like to crack a nut in her!"

I thought it ugly and found it highly offensive. The good news is I hadn't heard that usage before and haven't heard it since.

(2) Judging from the samples of computer-animated pr*nography readily available on the internet, there would seem to be a substantial market for 3-D cartoons where very large black men rape very small white women in a squalid setting, and it's not at all a kinder, gentler sort of rape.

I assume that sort of entertainment is big with the Travon Martin set.

I don't know their slang term for such a thing or what they call the act of ejaculation.

But I'm sure it's ugly and highly offensive.

edutcher said...

AnUnreasonableTroll said...

This witness is a disaster for the defense. She is clearly too dumb to lie in a convincing way. The small social lies that they reveal merely confirm this. Her credibility over the primary issues remains completely unimpeached.

Suure.

Troll morphs into America's Politico as his show trial goes hideously awry.

All those white women are getting a hard look at a very unsavory young man who couldn't wait to threaten them when his testicles finally descended.

Zimmerman walks.

Candle said...

Sometimes when I'm writing I like to think of things that bring me peace, and then I write those things. If more people did that the world would be a better...place.

Chuck said...

Ann, sometimes you think too hard.

Yes; black youth in the Twittersphere call everybody "niggaz." (In my own way of thinking too much, why fill in certain letters with asterisks? If the word is too painful to be used, why use it at all, with fig-leaf modifiers? If not, why not just spell it out?)

And, uh, no. No reasonable juror is going to think of an "asscracker." Only academics with homosexual rape fantasies are going to think of "asscracking."

Personally, when you got into the discussion of "Asscrackers," I was (for reasons I can't explain without a lot more therapy) thinking of some fresh goat cheese on a tasty Rosemary flavored Triscuit.

harkin said...

Enjoy your blog prof but concentrating on ass-cracker is as bad as starting off with a knock-knock joke.

Have you never heard the term "crazy-ass"?

Candle said...

Harkin:
Your jokes arEN'T ADDING TO THE DISGUSSION.

Scott M said...

Oh I see, so all womyn are "dumb". I can't even summon up the empathy to think about you. Since when, hello?

What statement did ARM make that would lead you to this conclusion? Only two possible answers here, I suppose. One, you actually have something that was said that rises to your use of "womyn" in a rebuttal or, two, you're sockpuppeting and badly.

AReasonableMan said...

Matthew Sablan said...
The other is that she is a habitual liar with an obsession over Martin and has been willing to lie in the past to embellish herself and him.


This is obvious nonsense since it is hard to imagine someone going to more effort to not be involved in this case. She had to be dragged into the case very much against her will. Her concept of law enforcement is shaped by 'First 48'. She quite correctly was somewhat confused by the failure of the detectives to contact her through the phone records.

MadisonMan said...

Without the decision to attack first, nobody dies, nobody gets hurt. That was the only thing done wrong by anyone, and Martin did it, and he paid for it.

I think this is a reasonable interpretation of the events that happened. Not sure if it's the truth, but it's very possible.

Candle said...

Scott M :
It is YOU who are "sockpuppeting". Notice I didn't use a hyphen? I did it on purpose.

Matthew Sablan said...

"She had to be dragged into the case very much against her will."

-- That's entirely not true, judging by her willingness to work with, what's the guy's name? Crump? She doesn't want to be part of the legal proceedings because she has perjured herself and, frankly, has every right to be worried that she might face consequences.

Not only that: Not wanting to show up in court has nothing to do with what I said (That she spent a lot of time talking to Martin/was obsessed with him, is a habitual liar.)

EMD said...

Candle Herman.

bagoh20 said...

"asscracker" I swear everytime I read that I bust out laughing. It's just ridiculous, and it brings to mind some shifty gay mugger guy in a lone ranger mask stalking the dark streets with a velvet wrapped crow bar.

That's some funny shit right there.

Matthew Sablan said...

An example of the embellishment would be lying about being Martin's girlfriend, if we need an example.

jr565 said...

Freder Frederson said...
Now you are contemplating why Martin didn't just run away when he felt threatened.

he did run away! And he got to his house (his meaning the house he was staying at) but refused to go inside as per his "girl friend".
He got away and was at his house. And yet two minutes later he was in an altercation with Zimmerman a block from his house.it sure sounds like he went back to confront Zimmerman.

EMD said...

"asscracker" I swear everytime I read that I bust out laughing. It's just ridiculous, and it brings to mind some shifty gay mugger guy in a lone ranger mask stalking the dark streets with a velvet wrapped crow bar.

Only if he is wearing ass-less chaps.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

And the burden of proof is on the prosecutor.

You keep saying that but that is more ivy tower bullshit. I think most jurors assume the defendant is guilty of something or he wouldn't be sitting there.

Candle said...

jr565:
I don't suppose you have any proof? No? Then please...

Scott M said...

@Candle

"...I do not think it means what you think it means"

garage mahal said...

Two teenagers making fun of a creepy-ass cracker, the most poetically correct description I have heard of Zimmerman to date.

Zimmerman is a creepy looking dude. Something about that boy just ain't right.

JAL said...

If / when Zimmerman is found not guilty, the people who only know about this trial from the MSM and the heavily edited clips of the witnesses will be outraged. (We wouldn't want to humiliate certain racial and gender groups, would we, by showing how in/un-credible these witnesses -- especially the Numero Uno -- are?)

The MSM in its blatant and egregious misinformation campaign (which it continues) better get a grip on this fast... otherwise they will bear culpability in the response of the uninformed and misled masses.

As long as the Rule of Law doesn't mean anything to the POTUS or the MSM, the uninformed masses will feel free to express themselves regardless of the outcome.

It is time for the press to get off its collective creepy asses and do its job.

Lem said...

I can understand that...

This where the Professor of Paraphrasing comes into her own.

Candle said...

Scott "M":
It is YOU who do not know what it means. And I suppose that "M" stands for "man". How do you like that?

MajorSensible said...

I then go on to say there is an alternate explanation and that it explains Jeantel's "rapist" idea and Martin's decision to confront.

It's an explanation, Professor, but a real stretch.

It's much less of a stretch to believe Jeantel is making stuff up post facto.

MajorSensible said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MadisonMan said...

I think most jurors assume the defendant is guilty of something or he wouldn't be sitting there.

I didn't assume that when I sat on a jury. Of course, it wasn't a murder trial, just theft.

It quickly became apparent to me that the Asst DA who was prosecuting was a moron.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Scott M said... Oh I see, so all womyn are "dumb". I can't even summon up the empathy to think about you. Since when, hello?

What statement did ARM make that would lead you to this conclusion? Only two possible answers here, I suppose. One, you actually have something that was said that rises to your use of "womyn" in a rebuttal or, two, you're sockpuppeting and badly.

6/27/13, 9:53 AM

Or three, off her meds

jr565 said...

He said creep ass cracka, not creepy ass-cracker (implying gay). Very similar to when Chris rock said "crazy ass cracka! In his comedy routine.
Crazy ass or creepy ass is common vernacular amongst the brothas. Ass-cracker isn't.
However, remember when the trayvon crowd trotted out the phone calls Zimmerman made and played the bit where they were sure he said "coon" because they were trying to prove he was a genicidal racist. In the interest of fairness I suppose we could assume that trayvon in addition to not like white also had some anti gay animus.

AReasonableMan said...

Matthew Sablan said...
An example of the embellishment would be lying about being Martin's girlfriend, if we need an example.


You don't know where that came from, most likely the mother. As did the age discrepancy. Jeantel merely failed to correct the mother's initial assumption that she was the same age as Martin. Clearly this woman has learning difficulties and has no doubt been held back in school. She is no doubt self-conscious about this.

This is the problem for the defense, she is a hedgehog, she knows what she knows.

chrisnavin.com said...

From the facts I've read, it seems like Zimmerman might have been thinking, "Oh shit, i'm gonna die" as his head was being pounded against the pavement.

Out came the gun.

MadisonMan said...

Zimmerman is a creepy looking dude. Something about that boy just ain't right.

Nothing illegal about that. Being creepy is perfectly legal.

There's something creepy, by the way, about your remarking on how creepy Zimmerman looks. Something about it just isn't right (It's rude, for one thing).

Now don't go and tell me that there's something creepy about me pointing how creepy it is you pointing out how creepy Zimmerman looks is. Because that would be creepy.

X said...

EMD said...
Candle Herman.


good guess EMD. it fits. but it may be contrived.

Alex Candle.

Matthew Sablan said...

A Reasonable Man said this: "
You don't know where that came from, most likely the mother. As did the age discrepancy. Jeantel merely failed to correct the mother's initial assumption that she was the same age as Martin."

Which again shows that he is not up on the case's most recent developments:

"Initially, Jeantel also told Crump she was 16. Upon cross-examination, the defense asked her if she lied about her age to maintain more privacy as a minor. She said yes."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/defense-cross-examines-rachel-jeantel-2013-6#ixzz2XQgj4InL

The age discrepancy did not come from the mother. It came from the witness. Try again?

Lem said...

And the burden of proof is on the prosecutor.

I think there a lot of people ready and willing to paraphrase that.

Candle said...

Bill, Republic of Texas:
That's it, my blog is now at war with this so-called blog. Meds? Whatever. Texas isn't even a state - it was stolen. Didn't know that did you?

bagoh20 said...

"The situation could very well have been 2 men misinterpreting things, but the question to be answered is about Zimmerman's culpability. We're trying to figure out what he perceived..."

The injuries to Zimmerman's face and head and to Martin's hands tell the story, which unsurprisingly fit perfectly with Zimmerman's immediate and one and only story. That scenario matches all the evidence.

I think it's obvious that Zimmerman's head, both inside and out, "perceived" he was under deadly attack, and was losing.

edutcher said...

The next week or so is going to be so much fun watching Troll tap dance around the failure of this case to go his way.

This time next week, I'm betting he'll be telling us it was all a mistake and we Conservatives should be ashamed we wanted Zimmerman to be tried.

JAL said...

@ GM Zimmerman is a creepy looking dude. Something about that boy just ain't right.

And something about Trayvon's gold grill and middle finger and droopy drawers just warn't right.

And I think it a safe bet that Garage, being wrongly accused of a life destroying felony, being tried after having been publically judged guilty by the first (half) black POTUS, would be a glowing example of relaxed innocence. /s

Besides having close set eyes and we all know what that means.

Sneaky.

cryptical said...

Did she say rapist or racist? Rapist in this context makes no sense.

cryptical said...

Did she say rapist or racist? Rapist in this context makes no sense.

jr565 said...

Candle wrote:
don't suppose you have any proof? No? Then please...


Proof if what? That he got home? That's what his gf said.
That Zimmerman lost sight of him. That's what both Zimmerman said to the cops and what trayvon said to his girl.
So if he got home how did he wind up back at the scene where he got killed? Other than by walking back?

AReasonableMan said...

Matthew Sablan said...
The age discrepancy did not come from the mother. It came from the witness.


Not that it is important, but Crump got his initial information from the mother.

Titus said...

Has this gone all viral on youtube with new songs and edits and stuff?

She will have her 15 minutes of fame, via youtube.

EMD said...

good guess EMD. it fits. but it may be contrived.

Alex Candle.


You're right. Not enough ellipses to be CH.

chrisnavin.com said...

JAL, the media, unfortunately, has followed a path of less resistance, and is now playing with more serious trouble.



Matthew Sablan said...

"Not that it is important, but Crump got his initial information from the mother."

-- It is important. The witness lied about her age; my point has been that she is a serial liar who cannot be trusted. You attempted to state that the age discrepancy was from the mother, implying that the witness did not lie about her age, just that the mother was mistaken.

You were wrong; the witness lied. It is, in fact, key to the point I'm trying to make. Don't downplay it: You were wrong, the witness is a liar.

EMD said...

Zimmerman is a creepy looking dude. Something about that boy just ain't right

You're right. The prosecution should argue this case not based on the law, but aesthetics.

Good call.

Patrick said...

This witness is a disaster for the defense. She is clearly too dumb to lie in a convincing way. The small social lies that they reveal merely confirm this. Her credibility over the primary issues remains completely unimpeached.

The defense needs only to have this witness' version doubted. Given her lies, even on unrelated matters, a jury is entitled to disregard everything she says. It is of course a different question whether they will. they will also be told they can call into question her ability to recall and relate the substance of her testimony.

Given her willingness to change testimony to please Crump, it is highly suspect. Crump may have given the case national attention, but he did no favors to the Prosecution. he clearly has trained this witness.

EMD said...

That's it, my blog is now at war with this so-called blog. Meds? Whatever. Texas isn't even a state - it was stolen. Didn't know that did you?


You have one fucking post on your "blog."

Patrick said...

Zimmerman is a creepy looking dude. Something about that boy just ain't right

Probably wore a hoodie, too.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Candle said...
Bill, Republic of Texas:
That's it, my blog is now at war with this so-called blog. Meds? Whatever. Texas isn't even a state - it was stolen. Didn't know that did you?

6/27/13, 10:08 AM

Write havoc and let slip the houds of blogs!

Patrick said...

Now don't go and tell me that there's something creepy about me pointing how creepy it is you pointing out how creepy Zimmerman looks is. Because that would be creepy.

Creep.

traditionalguy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JPINTX said...

"Cracker" is a term long applied to white native Floridians. One version of it's origin, circa 1870ish, was that many used whips, cracking them to herd their cattle. There is even a breed of cattle know a cracker cows. The term eventually came to be used to refer to oler white, generally ruralFloridians, who were considered racist or at least rednecks

edutcher said...

Candle said...

That's it, my blog is now at war with this so-called blog. Meds? Whatever. Texas isn't even a state - it was stolen. Didn't know that did you?

It was?

When?

By whom?

Have you told Eric Holder?

He'll get the NSA right on it.

Patrick said...

Jeantel is very equivocal and doesn't really know who was on top of whom or who said "get off of me."

traditionalguy said...

The prosecutor's burden was met in the clear and convincing opening statement. That can slip away, but so far the witnesses have affirmed it.

z is going down unless his lawyers put z on the stand and he is sincere. juries know their job and do it despite the Judges charge about beyond a reasonable doubt standards.

AReasonableMan said...

Matthew Sablan said...
The witness lied about her age; my point has been that she is a serial liar who cannot be trusted.


Matthew the initial statements by Jeantel were not under oath and she was clearly doing her level best to avoid being dragged into this affair. She didn't want to reveal her real name or give out her phone number or any other pertinent personal details

As a juror what I would be seeing is a defense lawyer hammering away on trivia without affecting the core credibility of the witness. Trying to tie her up in knots over minor variances in her testimony is shooting fish in a barrel. Her core testimony is essentially invariant.

Matthew Sablan said...

"The prosecutor's burden was met in the clear and convincing ending statement"

-- How? The witnesses' testimonies have all conflicted with each other AND the physical evidence (quick! Was Martin shot from above, as one witness claimed, or from below as the physical evidence claimed? Was it one shot, as the evidence of the gun proves, or three shots as the witness claimed?)

Seriously: Are you even half-cognizant of the trial? I feel like you and AReasonableMan are STILL operating on day 2 information and not the MONTHS of details we've accumulated since the initial reports.

Patrick said...

The prosecutor's burden was met in the clear and convincing ending statement.

What ending statement are you talking about?

jr565 said...

I'm giving Garage the benefit of the doubt that he wasnt serious about his comments about Zimmerman being creepy looking. He may be creepy looking to Garage, but I don't seriously thinking he was saying we should hold it against him.

lemondog said...

The issue isn't what Martin really thought or wanted to do other than as it relates to Zimmerman's perceptions and beliefs. The situation could very well have been 2 men misinterpreting things, but the question to be answered is about Zimmerman's culpability. We're trying to figure out what he perceived, that is what it outwardly looked like

According to Wiki the incident took place on February 26, 2012 at 7:09 PM and the community is racially mixed:

The Retreat at Twin Lakes is a 260-unit gated townhome community in Sanford, Florida.[83][84] The population in the development at the time of the shooting, was about 49% non-Hispanic white, 23% Hispanic, 20% black, and 5% Asian, according to Census figures.

At that time of the year it is very dark. In the dark I doubt if I could distinguish Zimmerman as other than dark looking

Photo of the night of the incident with police and all lit up but what was the degree of darkness at the time of the shooting?

Matthew Sablan said...

"Matthew the initial statements by Jeantel were not under oath and she was clearly doing her level best to avoid being dragged into this affair.

As a juror what I would be seeing is a defense lawyer hammering away on trivia without affecting the core credibility of the witness. Trying to tie her up in knots over minor variances in her testimony is shooting fish in a barrel. Her core testimony is essentially invariant."

-- She lied; being under oath she lied again, actually, and was forced to admit it. That's the point.

Frankly, you would never make it on to the jury. You're an incredibly biased person unable to actually look at the case objectively. You are ignoring that she has told you Martin could have walked away, in fact, she told him to: You have a witness for the prosecution stating in no uncertain terms: Martin chose to start the fight.

There is no way that any logical look at the witness's testimony is GOOD for the prosecution. But, you're blinded by what you want the truth to be. Which is sad, because you're usually at least willing to admit when you're wrong. But on this case, you're holding to the perceived truth too hard.

bagoh20 said...

"The prosecutor's burden was met in the clear and convincing ending statement."

Hell, we could have just asked him what happened, and left this whole trial business out.

Patrick said...

Oh - the opening statement. Yeah, that's not evidence, the jury will be told it's not evidence. It does nothing to meet the burden of proof without evidence that meets the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.

EMD said...

TradGuy is all in on a guilty verdict on Intrade.

bagoh20 said...

Hey Titus, when are we gonna get a photo, or should we just look up "asscracker" in the Wiki?

creeley23 said...

Tag this: Too clever by half.

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