April 10, 2013

"By age 3, a poor child would have heard 30 million fewer words in his home environment..."

"... than a child from a professional family. And the disparity mattered: the greater the number of words children heard from their parents or caregivers before they were 3, the higher their IQ and the better they did in school. TV talk not only didn’t help, it was detrimental."

There are some big correlation/causation problems lurking in there, obviously.

222 comments:

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edutcher said...

Head Start was supposed to fix this.

Now we know how much government "help" does.

Renee said...

If there is only one adult in the home, how can a child hear conversations?

Just having those celebrity/ entertainment / lifestyle programs... and tween programming isn't known for their great scripts.

bagoh20 said...

Even if true, those wordy kids will likely go to a university and not be much help to anyone. I would prefer more people with better manual skills and less with superior verbal ones.

Honestly, there are just too many people with too many words already, and I can't blame the words anymore than I can blame murder on bullets.

The only time I need someone with superior verbal skills is when another one of them is trying to steal from me. That's the rules - you can't just punch them, I'm told.

Now the less worded people, can do a lot of stuff you actually need, and they expect to get punched when they try to steal from you. They are just much easier people to work with.

DOWN WITH WORDERS!

Ignorance is Bliss said...


...the greater the number of words children heard from their parents or caregivers before they were 3, the higher their IQ and the better they did in school.

...and parents talk more to children of their gender.


Hey, what do you know. It's almost like there is a reason for children to have one parent of each gender. Who'd a thunk it?

rhhardin said...

Calvin Coolidge's kids could hardly speak at all.

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DADvocate said...

My parents must have never shut up because I'm a friggin' genius. ;)

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Renee said...

Just having those celebrity/ entertainment / lifestyle programs... and tween programming isn't known for their great scripts.

I suspect the problem with TV is not the quality of the scripts, but that the TV is not interactive. The child quickly learns that the parent is responding to their actions and noises, and that the parent's words correspond to the objects and actions around them.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Correlation/causation problems? I'll say. But the more fundamental one is confusing education level and wealth/income. I ought to know: I was born to two UW/Madison grad students in the late 60s, and while there was any amount of intellectual stimulation, there wasn't exactly an oversupply of money.

Chip Ahoy said...

Ever see little babies talking sign? But right there is a lot of mommy/baby interaction.

More little kids.

Emil Blatz said...

The illustration of this phenomenon I used to cite was a scene which could be taken from any episode of COPS- when the drug bust happens and the camera rushes in right after the battering ram. You would see the adults being cuffed and hauled out, and some kids wandering about in shock. In the room would be an array of expensive consumer electronics, and some furniture. No artwork on the walls and no books or bookshelves anywhere in the scene. Nothing for a child to read or have read to them. Which is why some of the kids in the early episodes of COPS are now reappearing in current seasons as the parents being hauled away.

n.n said...

Reading has a similarly positive effect to expand the mind. In fact, without external feedback, it forces a particularly unique development (e.g. optimization) of each individual's mind.

Audio and visual presentations remove the focus from mental development, other than the subsets which are principally correlated with processing and integrating sensory data. They are also low-density information resources.

A child, rich or poor, should read. They should analyze and contemplate what they have read. They should focus on developing their particular perspective, rather than short-term gains from understanding and sharing an existing one.

whoresoftheinternet said...

lmao.

Yeah, the whole reason blacks are always so silent is because their parents aren't talkin' educated enough. (/sarcasm).

Hint: there is no causation here, just more "cargo cult" SWPL religion that somehow, getting to kids early enough will "save" them. Ya'know, like playing Mozart to a baby will make him a genius.

SWPL's have a dogmatic, religious belief in the idea that kids are "blank Sponges"---completely nurture-based, and completely able to soak up anything forced on them.

It's all b.s. No valid study has ever validated any educational process that improves IQ in people more than a few within 1-standard deviation points.

IQ/mental abilities are genetic. Nothing can change that. This is just the latest attempt by SWPLs to rationalize away the Bell Curve facts.

Enjoy the decline, morons!

edutcher said...

Another issue is what words are heard.

In most such places, mofo, shi, fu, are about every other word.

MadisonMan said...

Further proof that mimes are evil.

George Grady said...

It seems to me that children quickly learn the difference between words spoken to them, and words spoken near them, and then only pay attention to the former. Background noise is merely noise.

m stone said...

Head Start was supposed to fix this.

Now we know how much government "help" does.


My sentiments exactly before I read the article. But now apparently Providence will uses HS as the vehicle to get the kids "talking." So we're dumping more money into a failed program? Is that how you read it?

And finally, if conversation is not practiced at home, what's the point?

Shouting Thomas said...

Steve Sailer has been covering this new expression of liberal goofiness for some time.

As Sailer has noted, the panacea proposed by liberals for this lack of verbal stimulation is to take black kids away from their dysfunctional single mother homes and give them to "nice white ladies" for as much of the day as possible.

This experiment has been tried before in Australia. In two different eras, liberals decided that the solution to the "aboriginal problem" was to take aborigine kids away from their families and give them to "nice white ladies" to raise.

This backfired. That experiment is now decried as racism incarnate, and the kids taken from the aborigine parents are called the "Stolen Generations."

The actual intent of the new liberal agenda is to give those "nice white ladies" government funded daycare jobs. Actual problem solved... all those "nice white ladies" with useless degrees in the humanities.

Shouting Thomas said...

Of course, the issue being skirted here is IQ.

Children born to parents of higher IQ do better, because their parents have higher IQs.

Liberals continue to operated on the "blank slate" developmental theory. Human have no innate characteristics...

Except for homosexuality, which is set in stone.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Doesn't bode well for Garage's offspring. Hope his ex wife married a man smart enough to make it past high school.

James said...

That's why President Obama today proposed spending $75 billion to close the "preschool access" gap.

What could go wrong?

Roger J. said...

What Mary and others said--do a literature review of all the evaluations of Head Start--except for the suspect Ypsilanti study, there is absolutely no consensus in the literature that HS makes any difference. And even in studies that suggest it might, those studies also indicate any gains disappear in the first or second grade.

Portia said...

Does anyone, I mean anyone, believe this s--t?

edutcher said...

You have to be a Lefty.

MartyH said...

I doubt the difference is 30,000,000 words by age 3. Even the math they give in the study does not add up.

Supposedly, rich children hear 1500 more words per hour, (2100 wph vs. 1500). So a rich child has to be exposed at that rate for 20,000 hours to reach a 30 million word differential. Given that 3 years is 26,280 hours and kids under three generally sleep about twelve hours a day (with naps), you just can't get there.

virgil xenophon said...

NO AMOUNT of "hard data" studies--i.e., "reality"--on IQ, efficacy of programs like Head Start, etc., will have ANY EFFECT on leftists. With them it's ALL ideological--ALL about "TeH NARRATIVE," teh "DISCOURSE." The fact that Obama today has doubled-down on pre-school for even four-yr-olds at program costs in the hundreds of millions in a time of financial distress even as he has grounded ONE-THIRD of USAF combat fighter & bomber squadrons at a time of high international tensions--and despite the fact that two govt-backed longitudinal studies have proven conclusively Head Start DOES NOT work "as advertised" is proof enough of that. (As if by now any more is needed)

MartyH said...

Typo above-2100 wph vs 600 leads to the 1500 wph difference.

jacksonjay said...


Hey, what do you know. It's almost like there is a reason for children to have one parent of each gender. Who'd a thunk it?

Ying and Yang, baby!

CWJ said...

Down with capitalist running dog Bagoh20!!!

Worders of the world unite! All you have to lose is your thesaurus!

virgil xenophon said...

MartyH is clearly insubordinate. HIS turn will come..

Inga said...

"Doesn't bode well for Garage's offspring. Hope his ex wife married a man smart enough to make it past high school."

4/10/13, 4:55 PM

A fine example of stupidity from Attorney PMJ, well done. Now we now how NOT to raise our children.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Mary,

Childen who succeed in school come from homes that value/prioritize education.

Not necessarily so, though obviously it helps. Neither of my parents had parents who had been to college, let alone graduate school. Mom's parents were farmers -- not in the "gentleman farmer" sense but in the "Grandpa is missing two fingers on one hand because of an accident with a reaping machine" sense. They weren't, I think, terribly keen on her going to university; in fact, I believe she arrived there with the clothes on her back and about twenty bucks.

Tari said...

Po Bronson's book Nurture Shock, actually goes into more detail about these studies. It's not the talking that's important, it's how often and how quickly the adult responds to the baby's cues.

The book is fantastic - the "baby talk" chapter was actually the most boring. Buy it for the first chapter "don't tell your kids they're smart" alone.

DADvocate said...

IQ/mental abilities are genetic.

Much more than anything else. Une of my psych professors used the analogy of a long box, open on each end with a series of holes in the top running from one end to the other. The holes represented IQ, higher on one end, lower on the other. Breezes ran through the box at different speeds and different directions.

As you dropped ping pong balls into the holes the balls would move a little bit due too the breezes, but rarely more than 5-10%. That's about all that environment influences IQ for better or worse.

Roger J. said...

What Virgil said--I worked 4 years as a head start administrator and what we ran was a baby sitting service for worthless parents.

Inga said...

And to PMJ's parents, it's never too late to slap your son upside the head a few times, and then yourselves for raisng such a loser.

Shouting Thomas said...

So, here you also have the classic second or third generation solution to a problem initially caused by liberal policy.

The dysfunctional single mother home so common to the black family is a creation of government welfare policy. You have to read Thomas Sowell regularly to really understand this. Before the civil rights era of the 60s blacks were more likely than whites to live in an intact nuclear family.

Now that liberalism has succeeded in destroying the nuclear family in the black community, the next and obvious solution is to take the kids away from black single mothers.

In the worldview of liberalism, this is the "logical" next step.

Synova said...

There very well may be something to the complexity of grammar and vocabulary heard before 3 (which would explain why TV doesn't help) and after 3 as well, influencing how a child is able to think about ideas when they are older.

I will say, though, that I sort of have an issue with the focus on reading to your kids. I tried. They wouldn't sit for picture books. (When they were older I read the first three (four?) Harry Potter books aloud to them, so I'm not just making it up when I say that I *tried* to read to them when they were young.) If I wanted to be snarky about it I'd say... they were with me all day... they had my attention all day... they had no reason to view book-reading or lap-sitting as any sort of "wow, mom is finally paying attention to me" thing.

But you're always asked, if your kids aren't *talking*... and mine didn't talk or read early... "do you read to them" or you have "professionals" so sure that you don't *talk* to them. If anything, we did talk to them only with no real attempt to limit our vocabulary. And when you're attentive, you know what a kid wants without them having to articulate much.

Now they're all older. The youngest is nearly 16. Their vocabularies are exceptional and have been since they were little. And not a single one of them reads without comprehension... and a whole lot of kids do read entirely without comprehension.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

MartyH,

Thanks for the math. It looked mighty implausible to me, but I didn't check it.

But, again, it wasn't "rich" kids vs. "poor" kids, but educated vs. uneducated parents. Wealth and education are strongly correlated, but they aren't in lockstep, especially in young families.

Nini said...

Renee said...
If there is only one adult in the home, how can a child hear conversations?


You can talk to your child, can't you? I even talk to my dog.

edutcher said...

Inga said...

And to PMJ's parents, it's never too late to slap your son upside the head a few times, and then yourselves for raisng such a loser.

The same applies to daughters, even if the parents live in Osterreich.

Shouting Thomas said...

Liberals didn't see any problem that could arise from a massive welfare state and no fault divorce. And, of course, fathers are optional to family life.

Now that bastardy is the common experience of blacks and hispanics, and on the increase among poor whites, a new "solution" must be found.

Liberals currently can't see any problem that might arise from gay marriage either.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Ah, the liberal call to violence from our resident pathetic old crone. I thought you lefty twats were against corporal punishment?

But I will not be distracted from the topic of the thread by the bug eyed hysterical old cow today.

The dismal results of Head Start and other programs are not a bug to the left, but a feature. It really is all about pouring taxpayer money to constituencies that will vote for Democrats. Shoveling some more taxpayer money on the fire to warm the homes of public sector unions is the goal, the indoctrination and dumbing down of children is just an added bonus for them.

Inga said...

Nini, so right. My husband died young, there was no father in our home for many years. My kids and I talked to one another, all of them turned out well, better than well.

Nini said...

Having said those comments earlier. I don't think it's going to be good for the world ,for all of us to become super humans.

We need garbage collectors, gardeners, as much we as need doctors and engineers.

Not that all garbage collectors have low IQ, I heard of one who is a Mensa member.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

"Nini, so right. My husband died young, there was no father in our home for many years."

That desperate to get away from you eh? I guess they had stricter divorce laws back then.

Poor guy. Can't say I blame him though.

Inga said...

My parents and I lived in Milwaukee Wisconsin edbutcher. Is PMJ your son?

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Synova,

By the time I remember being read to, I was in preschool and both my parents were working, so they weren't around me all the time. But I remember the reading. Golly. The Last of the Really Great Whangdoodles, and why was it so amusing that the professor's last name was "Savant," and why did my parents laugh so hard when I said that obviously "Lindy" was a girl's name? (We're talking small child, early 70s here. I didn't twig to that one for a long time.)

Roger J. said...

I read to my boys using the Sears Catalog--great teaching device because they could also see the items around the house. Reading to your children is one of the best things you can do.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

DADvocate said...

...but rarely more than 5-10%. That's about all that environment influences IQ for better or worse.

1) If we could raise IQs by 10-20% ( changing their environment from a negative 5-10% influence to a positive 5-10% influence ) that would be huge.

2) The study claims to effect their educational success, not their IQ. There is a correlation, but it is not 1 to 1.

I'm not saying that this research is correct, and even if it is, that does not mean that it can be successfully applied, especially through Head Start.

But I don't see any reason to dismiss it out-of-hand.

Geoff Matthews said...

Would it be in poor taste to say that dumb people will talk less to their kids(on average)?
I'm highly skeptical of this research.

edutcher said...

Inga said...

My parents and I lived in Milwaukee Wisconsin edbutcher. Is PMJ your son?

No, but you need to watch out for any incoming Lufthansa flights.

PS I thought you had promised to get the name right.

You lie a lot, don't you?

And you said somewhere you escaped over the same Alps as the Trapp family. Another fiction shot to Hell.

Renee said...

@nini

But they don't over hear adult conversations at the dinner table.

Other adult relatives (grandparents) if they live in the home or visit regularly.

ricpic said...

How dare white taxpayers resent their taxes being used by the state to pay black baby mammas to talk to their babies. Well, they better not dare show resentment those...those...oppressors!

Inga said...

Edbutcher I'm gong to say this only once. If you think for one second that I will call you anything other than edbutcher, edumber or Mr. Ed. while you continue to refer to me as The She Wolf of the SS and continue to make insinuations about my ethnicity you are WRONG. I can see how a deviant personality like PMJ could come about wih a father such as yourself, if you were to have been lucky enough to have a child of your own. God in his wisdom did not bless you with any, thank you God.

Inga said...

Renee, for pity sake what should women do whose husbands die, grab some male off the street so they can talk at the dinner table?

Shouting Thomas said...

Renee, for pity sake what should women do whose husbands die, grab some male off the street so they can talk at the dinner table?

Inga, there's a remarkable psychological difference for a child between losing an effective father to death, and never having had an effective father.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

"Edbutcher I'm gong to say this only once."

If only this were true, but I fully expect her to be polluting the Althouse threads with the same tired incoherent crap continously for the foreseeable future.

It makes one understand why the sweet release of death was so appealing to her husband as a means of escaping her.

Roger J. said...

with respect to ST's and Inga's comments: there are stars in the crown for any single parent that perseveres and raises children well.

Synova said...

Mary, the older kids were able to read Harry Potter themselves. That's not the point of reading aloud together. I've read books to my husband as well (the first two of David Weber's "Oath of Swords" novels... the fantasy dwarven naming conventions involved a lot of cursing of Mr. Weber) and certainly my husband can read of his own accord.

The only reason I brought it up at all was because people don't believe you if you say you tried to read picture books to the little ones but they refuse to sit for it. But they were willing to sit several years later and listen to extremely lengthy stories with no pictures at all... and I was willing to sit that long and read them, too.

Shouting Thomas said...

It makes one understand why the sweet release of death was so appealing to her husband as a means of escaping her.

Oh God!

Why in the world does politics induce people to do this?

Inga, Ritmo has done the touchdown dance over my wife's death numerous times as well.

Oh, well, I'm off to do some work on booking the Dawgz.

lemondog said...

Drive, focus, commitment will trump IQ.

Head Start began in 1965 to help low income children yet we keep hearing that US test scores in literacy, math, science lag many other countries.

traditionalguy said...

They are still stuck on stupid.

The talkative parents are talkative because they are sociable people who have learned to read and actually do read a lot starting with their King James Bible (which translation turned 400 this year.) This makes reading into a key activity later imitated by the children.

Ergo: 100% Adult Literacy and free consummation of Alcohol are the two necessary ingredients of an educated society.

Renee said...

No. I just think we lost value of the extended family living in the neighborhood, if one was to lose a parent.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Oh save your indignation Shouting Thomas,

She comes in to this thread, in which she was never mentioned and starts shit with me.

Civility bullshit.

Lem said...

I remember, I think it was Kentukyliz, mentioning this several years ago on a tread about a mother (a lawyer mom btw) that left her misbehaving child by the side of the road, for the child to find her way back home by herself.

She called it "kitchen table conversation" or "kitchen table talk" being essential for good child development, child rearing... for some reason I never forgot it... Something about it sound it just so right.

Inga said...

Thank you Roger! Raising children alone is difficult, but what is the alternative? There was never a moment in which I didn't expect my children to thrive, to do well, to excell even. I did what I had to and so did my children, I'm incredibly proud of every one of them. I even taught them how human decency comes first, before wealth, before success, before power.

Lem said...

I'm going to try to reach kliz to see if she remembers.

I cant find the tread in the archive.

EMD said...

to me, it would be better to pump that money into more education for our educationally inclined top of the class...

I would give it back to the people, to spend as they see fit, and have a local impact in a million times greater magnitude than any federal bureaucracy could.

Inga said...

Typhoid Mary and PMJ, a match made in hell. Lovely people.

Shouting Thomas said...

Civility bullshit.

PMJ, you're not violating any prohibition against civility bullshit.

Your problem seems to be restraining yourself from violating the bounds of sanity bullshit.

Behave yourself.

EMD said...

depending on the age of the children, many women in the old days remarried -- sometimes to a man with children of his own -- so their own children would have a father in the home.

Here's a story, of a lovely lady ...

Cedarford said...

30 million fewer words heard by age 3??
Sounds like feminist math.
Completely bogus stuff spouted by the "math is hard!!: brigade.

So lets say the poor little Trayvon character, before he was 4, lacked the difference between his animal-like grunting poor parents and a black professional family of 30 million words.

At non-stop talk, at one word every two seconds factoring in professionals using multi-syllable words and pausing to breath, that is 1800 words an hour, less say 300 words and grunts from his simian-like po' black folk parents.
to reach 30 million words, that would be 30,000,000/1500....or 20,000 hours. If we assume the blessed little tyke sleeps, and his animal-like or professional level parents (and is a dumb woman with a vaulted Teachers Masters degree really a professional???) then at best, its 20,000 hours divided by 18 hours a day.

Hint for the math-challenged feminists and others....how many days are in a year, and how does that match up?

And do professionals not work? Are they really around the tyke every waking moment and always talking nonstop?? Even while Mom or another professional caregiver is alone with the bawling or quiet tyke...and busy I guess talking to the tyke, or themselves, or enriching the tyke's IQ somehow by talking on a cell phone or talking back to Oprah while watching the show??

Ooooooh, math is so hard!! As is looking into actual studies of low IQ ghetto kids adopted by a professional couple to see if nuture and big words trump nature.
(it doesn't).

Roger J. said...

Inga: you are welcome

Shouting Thomas said...

Moral of the story before I go:

A committed mother and father who stress education and send the kid off for a standard religious indoctrination will produce a child who does well in school.

It's so simple that liberals have to find a way to needlessly complicate the equation.

Cedarford said...

Could be a subtle push for Obamaphones, because the more Yakisha or Beula is on de' Obamaphone talking dis or dat, the smarter they chilluns will be!

Paul said...

And so.. what? Get poor parents to talk more? Get 'professional' parents to shut up?

So just what?

I will say this, there are many cases were poor kids rose up and do very well in life and rich kids that just made a hash out of it.

Gene said...

The mass media always talks about the correlation between family income and a child's achievement. Why don't they talk about the relationship between the parents' IQ and family income?

If they did it would be perfectly clear. Kids with smarter parents are smarter than average and that's why they achieve more in school.

Synova said...

Growing up with the King James gives a whole additional layer of complexity to language acquisition from making connections between archaic and modern usage for both grammar and vocabulary.

Nini said...

I am rather conservative on many issues but I think the government giving to the needy is part and parcel of being a government.

Why do they collect taxes for? And why has an entity called government evolved in society, in the first place? That entity has proven to be beneficial to society for thousands of years. To help in the orderly distribution of resources; otherwise we will just be punching each other on the noses in order to get the materials we need to make something out of. And to help those unfortunate ones who fall through the economic cracks of any system. I am not talking of communism here but a government with a heart.

Sure the private sector can give to the needy, that's why there are philantrophists out there but most people are not wealthy to put up foundations to serve those purposes and therefore they do this indirectly by way of taxes. Of course some of you will say that taxing then giving to the poor is forced compassion. However, do remember that there's an inherent symbiotic relationship between all of us. We will not be able to get away from that reality.

Whether the government is biased in doling out money for projects that will advantage them politically, is another matter.

Roger J. said...


Synova: as does reading John Milton and listening the stirring melodies of Handel.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

It's always awesome when Althouse dons her lab coat and pretends to do critical mock science experiments for the hungry young minds of her blog commenting community.

It's like when she resorts to quoting the Wikipedia every day so that her minions can learn just a little bit about the history of the countries of the world.

Every adult should have someone in his life like that! How adorable.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Synova,

Growing up with the King James gives a whole additional layer of complexity to language acquisition from making connections between archaic and modern usage for both grammar and vocabulary.

Yeah, Thomas Cranmer acquired a large pile of sins, but he wrote a damn magnificent book, the music of which is never going to be out of my head.

Roger J. said...

I find myself in agreement with Ritmo--in the words of the bouncer at the bar: take it outside.

Inga said...

Ritmo, she can hook up with PMJ, but they should never breed.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

O Ritmo Segundo,

It's always awesome when Althouse dons her lab coat and pretends to do critical mock science experiments for the hungry young minds of her blog commenting community.

It's like when she resorts to quoting the Wikipedia every day so that her minions can learn just a little bit about the history of the countries of the world.

Every adult should have someone in his life like that! How adorable.


You know, Ritmo, you do keep showing up here, almost as though you wanted to be present.

It is unbelievably, awesomely easy not to be here. Indeed, I think even you could manage it.

Roger J. said...

I seldom agree with Ritmo's world view as I understand it, but I gotta tell you--I enjoy his commentary

ricpic said...

Jewish lesbians. Talk about the guilt trip - two Jewish mothers! - they musta laid on their poor kids.

Roger J. said...

nicpic--reminds of the story of the jewish son. Call his mom on Long Island--Mom I am coming to visit. Mom says wonderful--will tell the door man to let you in. Son says not necessary--Mom says: so you not bringing me presents?

Hulk Smash said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Synova said...

"Synova: as does reading John Milton and listening the stirring melodies of Handel."

Yes. In households that use the King James it tends to be used frequently with very small children, which I think is part of the language benefit unique to using that translation instead of a modern one. But certainly it does older kids good to have exposure to... lets call them time-shifted languages and literary conventions.

Even my reading Georgette Heyer involves a slightly shifted vocabulary that is sometimes surprising. "You have too much sensibility" means that a person is emotional, etc.

And of course Handel is wonderful, though my father is particularly fond of Bach.

Hulk Smash said...

NO NEED WORDS

HULK SMASH

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Thanks Roger. I try not to discriminate against personal affectations, including broader outlook, especially with people I know in real life. There are all kinds of interesting talents and knacks and interests in life and I am glad that you also make it a point to see those things in others. It makes life richer and I am glad to count you as among the people I feel I know - even if only online - who do.

Which brings me to Michelle Dulak Thomson's complaint:

It is unbelievably, awesomely easy not to be here. Indeed, I think even you could manage it.

Michelle, I'll gladly admit that one of my pet peeves, despite all the above, is that like my own mother, I do not suffer fools gladly.

Whatever shortcomings any secondary comment regarding a peer-reviewed publication in the popular press may have, the anti-science sentiment that prevails among today's Republican party, and is reinforced all too stridently by our very own host. I'll admit to not liking that one bit.

By all means, have an opinion, have a criticism. But be careful not to take pride in excessively ignorant opinions or criticisms. Having an open mind is important when it comes to the most powerful enterprise in the history of humanity: reason and science. Accept that the latest scientific understanding need not be the be-all end-all; the very process itself implies constant refinement.

But refusing to educate yourself on the rigors involved in the process and what information counts, however, is a shortcoming that I refuse to compromise on just as stridently.

Roger J. said...

Synova--your dad had it right--no one, IMO wrote music as well as Bach--listen to the mass in D minor and not be stirred.

Hulk Smash said...

MAKE CRACKR MOM N DADS SHUT UP

NOW SAME SAME

Synova said...

Roger, I think that a big part of what made Bach great was the instrument. (In the sense that you can do some things with oils that you can't do with pastels or water color.) The way pipes create sound and interact with each other involves a whole lot of physics and wave interactions.

(And yes... I'm talking out my rear... but the organ is a glorious instrument.)

Rob said...

It's not just the quantity of words spoken at home that matters, it's the quality. "Punk ass motherfucker" repeated ten million times = 30 million words, but it puts the listener at a disadvantage to Abby the St. Bernard, who benefits from the rich vocabulary to which she's exposed at the Meadehouse.

Roger J. said...

Syno
yva--my lady and I visited spain last fall and toured a wonderful medieval church in the hinterlands--it had the oldest organ in the province of Leon--and the pipes were in the shape of trumpets--I regret that I never heard it played. The design of organs is one of the high points in music again IMO.

It seems to me that you cannot listen to Bach's organ works and stand in awe of someone who could write such music. It always brings tears to my eyes.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Anyway, it's not as if Althouse's original comment lacks any merit - but as with the boy who cried wolf, it makes it easier to tune out when accompanied by so many complaints about what science has revealed regarding the environment.

But her veiled critique, which I take to mean the confounding of "genes" with environment, is easily remedied. All you have to ask is if the study excluded adopted children. I'm willing to guess that it didn't, but at least if you want to go down that road you have to give specific examples of how to address confounding variables.

Maybe this study did and maybe it didn't. But it makes critics (for which science has no lack) a bit more credible when they give the impression that they took seriously the willingness to know how to do this.

Michael said...

RogerJ and Synova. I am hooked on the Cantatas as performed by John Eliot Gardiner. And on the Goldberg Variations. And.... There is none close to J S B.

kentuckyliz said...

Kentuckyliz here...is my name being used in vain?

I can't remember what it is I said, but if it was smart and true, it must have been me, and yes I take the credit.

Was it about families having dinner together, and sitting down at the table, and having real conversation?

We don't do baby talk in my family. We speak to children like adults. They end up pretty smart.

The old Bell Labs studies showed a correlation between SES, education, and number of books in the home. The strongest predictor of academic/educational achievement was the number of books in the home.

I am going to see if I can find a link to the Ruby Payne organization, which does great work in helping teachers understand the framework of poverty and how to adapt methods to poor children. Their vocabularies are much smaller, and their lives are so chaotic and unpredictable that they don't have an innate grasp of cause and effect. You give standard academic instructions to them and they don't have as good of an understanding as kids from better off families. The rules and survival strategies in poverty culture are different than the middle class rules, ethic, and strategies that govern academic and business life. Good stuff. I teach it directly in my foundations of learning class (filled with students with multiple developmental course placements).

chickelit said...

I felt as if invisible hands were holding me. I made frantic efforts to free myself
~Helen Keller

Keller was deaf and blind from age 19 months and showed that immutable genius can be both locked away inside and overcome.

This article happens to be on the NYT "opinion page," not the science page. Make of that what you will.

I skimmed it to see whether the author's solution was state-funded chat therapy for the poor.

edutcher said...

Inga said...

Edbutcher I'm gong to say this only once. If you think for one second that I will call you anything other than edbutcher, edumber or Mr. Ed. while you continue to refer to me as The She Wolf of the SS and continue to make insinuations about my ethnicity you are WRONG.

Then you are a liar.

You made a promise and you broke it.

virgil xenophon said...

I'm sorry Ritmo, but as much as I admire your glibness, I have to take serious umbrage with your statement that the GIOP is "anti-science." Lets take abortion, par example: With each passing day/hour the science of fetus viability (i.e., "life")keeps moving back down the timeline to inception--something the left ABSOLUTELY refuses to admit/recognize--n'cest-ce pas? Or take AGW/"Climate Change." The "warmists" have been proven to be the religious ideologues on this subject, having been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in too many highly publicized instances to name to ignore, alter, adjust and falisfy data to suit their greenie eco-fascist Weltanshruung. And now that "climate and/or "weather" has not co-opporated with the projections of their faulty "models" for some 15 yrs now, the best they can do is slime their critics via character assassination. "Tis YOUR SIDE who are the true "deniers"--denying real-world data in favor of an ideologially-driven vision. As Richard Feynman once said: (para)"No matter how elegent the theory or credentialed its proponents, when the facts don't support it, it's WRONG." SOoooo....Ritmo, who's "anti-science" now?

Hulk Smash said...

SWORD BEAT WORDS

ROCK BEAT PAPER

MEAT BEAT MANIFESTO

cheddar said...

The heritability of IQ isn't that high, but high IQ parents tend to be more successful and provide more resources to their kids and so their kids tend to do well. Environment matters quite a bit.

The numbers in the study (about the millions of words)look a bit exaggerated but uneducated parents do have very different conversations with their kids than educated parents do. The former are more likely to just say: "Eat your peas" why the latter are more likely to have actual conversations where the kids are expected to participate.

cheddar said...

The heritability of IQ isn't that high, but high IQ parents tend to be more successful and provide more resources to their kids and so their kids tend to do well. Environment matters quite a bit.

The numbers in the study (about the millions of words)look a bit exaggerated but uneducated parents do have very different conversations with their kids than educated parents do. The former are more likely to just say: "Eat your peas" why the latter are more likely to have actual conversations where the kids are expected to participate.

Roger J. said...

Michael--re the Goldberg variations: as a young man I was privileged to hear Glen Gould play them--just finished listening to Wanda Landowska play the Italian concerto. wonderful, soaring music

virgil xenophon said...

@kyliz/

Did I underwstand you in a previous post to imply you had cancer via your passing reference to "your" oncologist while describing your "eat group?" Pray tell me I mis-interpreted..

garage mahal said...

you just got all touchy when someone pointed out that in the past widows went on too... raised children, loved men, and did it all without access to any monthly check when they remarried...

You're such a fucking dope.

Roger J. said...

you can read the comments hereon--or you can listen to Bach--At the end of the day the comments are ephemeral--but Bach's music is forever.

chickelit said...

@VX: That the GOP is anti-science is a tenet of American Sullivanism (AS), last I checked. Adherents seek to remake American Conservatism in their own image. There's lots and lots riding on the GOP = anti-science tenet, primarily related to AGW.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Roger J.,

Synova--your dad had it right--no one, IMO wrote music as well as Bach--listen to the mass in D minor and not be stirred.

I feel like Banquo at Macbeth's dinner table here, but there isn't a Bach mass in D minor. There's the B-minor Mass, which is the only setting of the whole Catholic ordinary and is certainly what you mean; then there are the several "Lutheran masses," just the Kyrie and the Gloria.

Ann Althouse said...

Why does talking a lot have anything to do with whether one is rich or poor? Seems like "poor" here is a proxy for a set of characteristics that overlap with poor verbal skill.

Cedarford said...

cheddar said...
The heritability of IQ isn't that high, but high IQ parents tend to be more successful and provide more resources to their kids and so their kids tend to do well. Environment matters quite a bit.


===================
Liberal hogswill. The heritability of IQ and its effects on future success are pretty well documented - not least in households that adopt a lower IQ kid,(or higher one in some cases) compared to their biological offspring.

While it is true that good nurture can't hurt...it doesn't transform born stupid people into rocket scientist material.

kentuckyliz said...

The Ruby Payne organization gets the registers of language information from Dr. Martin Joos (1961) whose name makes me think of Cedarford.

Joos!

A UW Mad connection!

Dr. Martin Joos

Registers of language

Hidden rules of poverty, middle class, and wealth video and the video poster, ahaprocess, is the Ruby Payne organization.

I teach the hidden rules of each level, and the registers of language, and what that means for people who are trying to improve their situation in life. We do a lot of situations and I have test questions about it (especially poverty to middle class transition)--because that is what these students are trying to do.

A person from a framework of poverty can feel like moving up is a criticism or rejection of their family, and that isn't necessarily so. One must learn to be bicultural, practically.

Roger J. said...

Michelle--you are correct and my bad--it is the Mass in B Minor.

Shouting Thomas said...

I spent my childhood listening to the concertos of Hank Williams and Ray Price.

And, talking Cubs with my Dad.

It didn't hurt me none.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

I'm sorry Ritmo, but as much as I admire your glibness, I have to take serious umbrage with your statement that the GIOP is "anti-science."

Oh boy! Let's! With or without glibness!

Lets take abortion, par example: With each passing day/hour the science of fetus viability (i.e., "life")keeps moving back down the timeline to inception--something the left ABSOLUTELY refuses to admit/recognize--n'cest-ce pas?

"The left" is not synonymous with "science" and viability is not where the popular debate centers, or at least where it should center for thinking people. Both Synova and I (and I would think others) believe sentience should be a point at which moral considerations take root, and it is a fact that six-week old embryos, let alone blastocysts, don't even have nerve cells, let alone the very CNS and accompanying apparatus that allow for the sensation of pleasure, pain, existence or any other concept that is required for the idea of cruel treatment or the denial of one's personhood to have any meaning.

If that's not scientific and reasonable enough for you, then I guess you can always refer me back to why it is you take the Vatican's confusion of genomic identity with personhood as your own (and the GOP's) starting point.

Or take AGW/"Climate Change." The "warmists" have been proven to be the religious ideologues on this subject, having been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in too many highly publicized instances to name to ignore, alter, adjust and falisfy data to suit their greenie eco-fascist Weltanshruung. And now that "climate and/or "weather" has not co-opporated with the projections of their faulty "models" for some 15 yrs now, the best they can do is slime their critics via character assassination. "Tis YOUR SIDE who are the true "deniers"--denying real-world data in favor of an ideologially-driven vision.

A lot to unpack here. Where to begin? First off, I'm not sure that anyone's been "proven" to be the religious ideologues of the subject. Focus on the facts, not your aspersions.

Second, no mischief or even perceived mischief (reducing the data noise of a single study is not real mischief) has dismissed the real science and more plausible theory (compared to the denialists' claims) that AGW has gathered.

And last, if you want to take issue with character assassination, your side is hardly to blame. But either way, that's all secondary and has nothing to do with the science. Facts and reasonable frameworks for interpreting them will exist and go on to be more accurate than the alternatives no matter what politics exists on either or both sides.

As Richard Feynman once said: (para)"No matter how elegent the theory or credentialed its proponents, when the facts don't support it, it's WRONG." SOoooo....Ritmo, who's "anti-science" now?

You have brought no facts to bear. You have simply made a political debate. Not surprising, as the politics of all this is all that concerns the GOP anyway.

Michael said...

RogerJ. Now, on top of living on Ivy you hit me with the Glenn Gould fact sending me into teeth grinding envy. I have the first and final recordings of Gould's Goldberg Variations and listen to them on every single airplane flight alternating between the Aria in the early version and the later longer version straight on through both performances. I would have given anything to have seen him live. You are a lucky man continuing to surprise.

Shouting Thomas said...

Oh God, Roger don't you know better than to get Ritmo the Retard started gassing about his brilliant intellect and all the books he's read?

He'll tell you about that voluntarily.

It never seems to occur to the dipshit that he's posting on a blog aimed at lawyers. Lawyers never read books, right?

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shouting Thomas said...

My initial music education was deliver by Mrs. McShana, a buxom Irish housewife whose blouses never seemed to quite contain her boobs.

She played professionally at the Odd Fellows' Hall and was quite fond of banging out marching songs and anthems.

She also sat down with me on the bench at the end of every lesson to play "Heart and Soul" as a duet.

This is how I came to be such a highly educated, upstanding citizen.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ Kentucky Liz

We don't do baby talk in my family. We speak to children like adults. They end up pretty smart.

Ditto. We didn't do goo goo gah gah baby talk either. Speaking WITH your children.....not AT them... is really the important key. Having conversations, even if it is answering the "why" questions that make us all crazy and soliciting the child's ideas. "Why do chickens lay eggs"....can become an interesting conversation about not only chicken and bird biology but why do we eat eggs, how do we cooks them, why are some eggs brown and so on. Ask your children what THEY think. You might be surprised at the unique way that he or she has of looking at the world. You might even learn something too :-)

The number of words might be important. Of more value is the interaction between parents/adults and children.

Books too of course!! We read all the time to each other and separately. I cannot imagine a home without books.

4/10/13, 7:24 PM
Delete

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Oh God, Roger don't you know better than to get Ritmo the Retard started gassing about his brilliant intellect and all the books he's read?

See what you did, Virgil? (Psst - don't tell Shouting Douchebags who actually wrote the post he takes issue with, that's above him).

Anyway, he objects to scientific discussion in any form - pretty odd given that the blog host herself decided that as the topic of the post. He feels that science insults his intelligence. And he's reliably against whichever side in the "culture war" that the GOP has deemed the enemy.

Now you go find your explanation for him. Is he pro-science or anti- and which side's politics does he represent? Show me any discussion of any scientific phenomenon that this proudly ignorant, egomaniacal simpleton will allow for on this oftentimes political blog.

Shouting Thomas said...

Ritmo the Retard, you're a scientific ignoramus.

I actually worked in a scientific field for several decades.

You just blow gas out your ass.

edutcher said...

Shouting Thomas said...

My initial music education was deliver by Mrs. McShana, a buxom Irish housewife whose blouses never seemed to quite contain her boobs.

She played professionally at the Odd Fellows' Hall and was quite fond of banging out marching songs and anthems.

She also sat down with me on the bench at the end of every lesson to play "Heart and Soul" as a duet.

This is how I came to be such a highly educated, upstanding citizen.


Doubtless some parts have been upstanding since your first lesson with Herself.

Hulk Smash said...

PICTURE BOOKS ARE BEST

WHERE WILD THINGS ARE

GOODNIGHT MOON

DREAMS OF MY FATHER

O Ritmo Segundo said...

I actually worked in a scientific field for several decades.

You just blow gas out your ass.


Prove it.

You are not only a liar, but a liar for the worst reasons - reputation and ego.

You have been called out on all this long ago. You know nothing of any science whatsoever. You cannot have a coherent discussion on anything scientific, and everyone here knows it. You just hate feeling that you're not knowledgeable to be a party to any particular discussion and feel your intelligence insulted (which is no one's fault but your own). You are a bully who needs to feel superior to others and this just happens to be the easiest and, for you, apparently most hurtful way of exposing that.

But virgil and I were having a discussion - at his behest. What makes you think you're so important that you have the right to derail that? And why are you opposed to the framework called for by Ms. Althouse's topic choice?

Well, my powers of deduction lead me to think it's because you're just a simple-minded asshole, but I'm sure you have some big, fancy, mighty and all-powerful alternative explanation.

kentuckyliz said...

People operating in the middle class and wealthy frameworks are comfortable operating in the formal register of language. People operating in the framework of poverty operate in the casual register. Their accessible vocabulary is much smaller and simpler. Academic and business environments operate in formal register, according to the rules and ethic of the middle class framework (at least)--so someone entering that world from a framework of poverty has a hard time accessing it at all (struggling with the academic environment, making a poor impression within the first few minutes of a job interview, if they even have the network to access the hidden opportunities).

I say framework of poverty, because you can have a family who would be normally middle class or higher but due to shifting circumstances or world events have temporary financial struggle. They don't operate from the framework of poverty, even if they are having hard times at the moment.

Or, to put it succinctly, I've been broke but I've never been poor.

And yes, I have had three primary cancers. I am superwoman. Last night I was at a meeting at the home of my radiation oncologist, whose wife is in this group.

Roger J. said...

Michael--I was about 15 when I heard Glen Gould play in Miami. He played the goldbergs in the original tempo--I think it was shortly thereafter that he tripled the tempo and made musical history--He was a fairly young man when I heard him play. (he also played Scarlatti and Chopin, but the Bach was his crowing achievement. ) He died far too young.

Mel said...

I remember a woman I know asking me once why I talked to my daughter as if she could answer me back instead of baby talk at her like most moms. Her implication was that there was something wrong with me because I wasn't parenting her way. My answer was simply: "Because I want her to learn to speak English, not babble." By the time my daughter was 2 1/2 she knew the ABC song and sang it clearly. A friend who taught first grade heard her one day and said, "I teach kids who can't do that, whatever you are doing, keep doing it and when I have kids, tell me how."

Nomennovum said...

Oh, God. Another bullshit article.
30 million fewer words. Gimme a break.

Shouting Thomas said...

Ritmo the retard, you're just a dumb fucking kid.

I respond to you as a matter of charity. Your stupidity is so dense, deep and of such marvelous scope that I'm trying to bash you in the head and create a hole so that a degree of wisdom might seep in.

It's thankless work.

You also have a terrible, disgusting personality, too. I'm surprised, as I've said, that you can walk out the door without being accosted by a mob that wants to beat the shit of you for the sheer pleasure of it.

Roger J. said...

And to rub it in Michael, while a cadet at West Point, went down to Carnegie Hall and heard Artur Rubenstein play Beethoven's Emperor Concerto--we even went back stage to meet with Rubenstein post concert--an extraordinarily courtly gentlemen. I have been extraordinarily lucky in my life I think.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

It's thankless work.

I'm sure that it's so with everything you do. All the more reason for you to give it up.

You also have a terrible, disgusting personality, too.

It's amazing that you're too dumb to realize that I consider the source of this statement. You are one of the least generous persons in this space - which is saying a lot. Stop aggrandizing your sad self. You do no charity. You know no science. You do what you do because you are an old, decrepit lifelong shithead bully and can't fathom that the age thing alone doesn't come with automatic respect. You strike me as someone who feels he is entitled to a lot more respect than he gives or deserves. So, you won't be getting it from me any time soon.

I'm surprised, as I've said, that you can walk out the door without being accosted by a mob that wants to beat the shit of you for the sheer pleasure of it.

Maybe the sociopathic wolf-den you live in does not reflect much of society at large. And you give yourself away by talking about the supposed "pleasure" of beating. That just about says it all.

But Virgil Xenophon thinks guys like you represent the thinking clade of the Republican backbone on science. Please keep up talk like this - it really most prove his point, somehow.

Nomennovum said...

Come on! Is anyone here seriously entertaining the thought that this is anything other than SWPL self-congratulatory-but-I-have-an-idea-how-to=save-the-world horseshit of the first degree?

kentuckyliz said...

I appreciate my parents' efforts to teach us music, literature, theatre, art, fine dining, and proper manners. We only had classical music on the radio at my house. And only the well ordered stuff. If some contemporary dystonic dissonant crap came on, Dad would yell, "Dissonance!" and run to turn off the hi fi. I honestly believe that having that music as our background shaped our brains like a disk being formatted--well ordered, calm, orderly.

We'd speak some French around the dinner table, and drink wine with dinner, and have candlelight and cloth napkins. Even for meat loaf. We had to use two utensils properly (not the stab and carve and switch that most Americans do). I've had people ask if I went to an Ivy League school just based on my proper utensil handling.

We are making the effort to drag the next generation into such culture. It really is a favor--they will never feel intimidated, and will move comfortably in any social circle.

Not many of my peers could say they got dressed up and went to the opera, but that was a thing with my family.

So...if I were to take some poor kids to these things, if the only thing they've ever been to is wrestling and monster trucks and country concerts, and the only dining they've done comes in a paper sack, they are not going to feel comfortable in this world at all.

So there is middle class rules, the formal registers of language, and the cultural exposure that the Idiocracy trailer park people are just missing out on.

AJ Lynch said...

Did anyone do the math on this 30 million claim? If they average being awake 8 hours per day in age 1-3, that would work out to 3400 words an hour. That is not possible.

chickelit said...

Ritmo said: You just hate feeling that you're not knowledgeable to be a party to any particular discussion and feel your intelligence insulted (which is no one's fault but your own).

This reminds me of the time I learned that an inordinate number of Althouse commenters were (or claimed to be) Italian speakers. I have my own personal history with that language and certainly don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone. Still, the incongruence between what one finds here versus the world at large contributed to my opinion of how much here is smoke and mirrors.

kentuckyliz said...

Head Start doesn't help because they employ welfare mothers as most of the early childhood teachers. So they just perpetuate the poor discipline, poor vocabulary, poor reading, poor social interaction, etc. Only the center director has an early childhood degree. It's one of those work for your welfare schemes. Pay the moms to babysit their own and other poor moms' children. That's the last place I'd put any child I loved.

Dante said...

Ladies, remember. Stay away from the strong silent types. They may seem smart, but they probably came from families that didn't talk much, and for sure they will make your kids dumb.

elkh1 said...

30 million fewer words in 3 years of its life?
Rich kids must have very talkative au pairs.

Nomennovum said...

Liberals don't do math, AJ Lynch. They talk.

And talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk ...

That's why they're so darn good.

Dante said...

Ladies, remember. Stay away from the strong silent types. They may seem smart, but they probably came from families that didn't talk much, and for sure they will make your kids dumb.

Inga said...

"Still, the incongruence between what one finds here versus the world at large contributed to my opinion of how much here is smoke and mirrors."

4/10/13, 7:49 PM

THIS is true.

Roger J. said...

Kentucky Liz--sounds like you had a wonderful upbringing--I personally bemoan the lack of dinner parties in modern culture where one would be expected to dress appropriately and carry on civilized conversations around the table--I am still bemused by people who wear jeans to concerts (OK--I still wear my tux to formal concerts but am pretty much in the minority) Every so often I wear my military dress uniform as well.

you are speaking about a certain cache of civilization that is all too often lost in modern society/

Hulk Smash said...

LESS TALK MORE SMASH

I MISS CHICAGO
HOME OF
SMASH AND TAKE YR STUFF

ALL WORDS YOU NEED
'GIMME YR MONEY'

WORKS FOR THIEF N PERFEESR N MAYOR

edutcher said...

Ann, you need a title on your new post, I think. Can't get in it.

AJ Lynch said...

Did anyone do the math on this 30 million claim? If they average being awake 8 hours per day in age 1-3, that would work out to 3400 words an hour. That is not possible.

Only if you're not Ritmo.

He expends at least that much because he thinks browbeating everyone wins arguments.

chickelit said...

Dante said...
Ladies, remember. Stay away from the strong silent types. They may seem smart, but they probably came from families that didn't talk much, and for sure they will make your kids dumb.

"Stoicism is a dumb philosophy" fits the meme du jour.

virgil xenophon said...

@Ritmo/

I did not posit that the "science" of life's "human" beginnings had been proven tio begin at inception, I only stated that your side (you are a "man of the left" are you not?)seems stubbornly to steadfastly ignore the latest science on fetus viability when campaigning for abortion "rights." In re: AGW. Do you deny that the mean "global temp" (something as nebulous as a religious vision considering the statistical "smoothing" involved--not to mention the problem of instrument sitings and the probklems of resolving their readings w. satellite readings.) has NOT risen in the last 15 years do you? DESPITE the fact of continued CO2 rise and DESPITE the fact that EVERY model "warmists" have used says that temps MUST rise parallel with CO2 increases. Are you denying THESE unchallenged, observed, recorded and proven facts, Ritmo? Thus if recorded temps do not confirm the models--ALL of which said such temp increases congruent with CO2 rises were unalterable and inevitable/automatic--does this not mean that they were BADLY WRONG? Or are you to argue (as warmists are now doing) that AGW "theory" really didn't proport to mean what AGW proponents once claimed it meant? I.e., crawfishing away from the theoretical computer-driven "models" upon which ALL of AGW "theory" is based in light of non-supporting data. Ritmo, my man, that "Global Warming" proponents were forced to change the name of their theory to that of Climate "Change" should tell you something, just for starters. If the facts had confirmed their models of straight-line liner temp increasae (i.e. The famed and now TOTALLY discredited "hockey-stick") do you think your warmest friends would have changed the label? PLEASE. The name-change alone is prima facia evidence that their theories and models were faulty. If you want to continue to fool yourself, fine, but, as is famouisly, pithly, oft said: "don't try bto piss on my leg and tell me it's raining."

Palladian said...

I would have given anything to have seen him live.

Gould would have said, and I would agree, that his recordings are the ultimate expression of his ideas and abilities. Concerts are a game of chance and a needless spectacle.

Regarding Gould's 1981 recording of the "Goldberg" variations, do you have a recently released (post 2008) version? The older releases of this recording were of the Sony digital master, which was an early, very primitive digital recording technology. Sometime in the 2000s it was discovered that the engineer at the '81 "Goldberg" sessions also recorded the signal on analog tape as well as the digital device. This analog source was remastered and edited to match the edits in the original release, and is now (I believe) the only version that's sold. The difference in quality between the two is remarkable.

Nomennovum said...

Io parlo Italiano molto bene, Chickelit. E vero. La infermiera lo dice.

Basil said...

What no references to My Fair Lady? Poor Professor Higgins has already splained all dat. Blimey!!!

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Lol, nomennovum.

anyway, reactionary conservatives grunt. And grunt and grunt and grunt and grunt. Until others get bored and start having conversations with real words.

Roger J. said...

Palladian--thank you for your information. Glen Gould, IIRC, abjured concerts for the reasons you cite. He was comfortable doing recordings, again for the reasons you cite, although he kept screwing them up by humming, counting, and making his personal "noises" during the recordings.

I have the 81 version and honestly I could not imagine it to better, but if so, I will attempt to find the remaster.

Thank you so much for the information.

Nomennovum said...

2.9 million of those words are "Cheerios," "Goldfish," "Goodnight," and "Moon."

virgil xenophon said...

PS to Ritmo: I wwould provide copious links, but I am not at my own computer tonight, so don't have access to my bookmarks. But I would suggest you visit such sights as "Greenie Watch" (run by a PhD in Brisbane, Oz) or WUWT (What's Up With That) or Joannenova.com.au for some enlightenment.

Roger J. said...

Palladian--a further thought re Gould. While I understand his arguments for recordings vice concerts, the thrill of hearing live music performed in a modern symphony hall is a total experience.

virgil xenophon said...

@Roger J./

Your liking for Gould suggests you might also like Eric Satie, no?

Nomennovum said...

anyway, reactionary conservatives grunt. And grunt and grunt and grunt and grunt. Until others get bored and start having conversations with real words. -- ORS

Maybe. But I'm no reactionary. Nor am I particularly conservative, except in that Leftists make alternatively tired, amused, or pissed. I'm more of a "get off my lawn" type of guy.

So get the fuck off.

Roger J. said...

Virgil: just finished listening to Satie play Bach's Italian Concerto on a U tube stream--interesting that he played it on a piano and never used pedals. I still prefer to listen to the Italian on a harpsichord. But Satie is pretty damn good.

gutless said...

I ran a test on this with my own son and a little friend of his the same age from a nearby public housing project. I found knowledge deficits in both directions. The neighborhood boy did not know what electricity meant but on the other hand my son was stumped by the meaning of motherfucker, a slam dunk for the other child. They both went to the same Head Start. It apparently doesn't work or perhaps only works half the time.

Shouting Thomas said...

My preference is Ernest Tubb singing My Filipino Baby!

Sublime genius!

I'm telling you, if you want your kids to grow up be real 'Muricans, make them listen to Grand Old Opry.

And, FYI, Mrs. McShana charged $1.50 for a 45 minute piano lesson.

Nomennovum said...

I'm stumped too, Gutless. What does electricity mean?

Illuninati said...

O Ritmo Segundo said:
"If that's not scientific and reasonable enough for you, then I guess you can always refer me back to why it is you take the Vatican's confusion of genomic identity with personhood as your own (and the GOP's) starting point."

Nice swipe at the Vatican by an enlightened "scientist". Perhaps Ritmo would be kind enough to explain how science has established a reliable basis for morality.

"You have brought no facts to bear. You have simply made a political debate. Not surprising, as the politics of all this is all that concerns the GOP anyway."

I love it when lefties project their own attitudes on other people. Lets see, Al Gore has become a multimillionaire/billionaire partly by promoting global warming. But of course although he ran for president, he is not being political.

Mr. Segundo, if you are a scientist, what caused the last ice age? Is it the Milankovitch cycle? Are you sure? How long will the present interglacial warm period last?

Michael said...

Palladian. I have the "Wonders" album which has bith the 1955 and the 1981 in which you can hear Gould humming away midway in the Aria. At several other places his voice erupts. Not sure this is the version you mean.

RogerJ. Saw Steven Hough in Carnegie Hall a few weeks ago. Did not get to go back stage.

Roger J. said...

Alas, I must drop off--apologies for my foray into music, but genuinely appreciate those who participated in my off topic remarks--At the end of the day, music transcends political discussions anytime. Best to all, good night.

Roux said...

Has anyone done the math on this?

2,100 words per hour considering a 12 hour day for infants is +25k words a day. That's a lot of words.

I know talking to your kids is important but do the professional families ever shut up.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Hey, no worries, Virgil. And I had to step away from my computer as well. (No, it wasn't to beat off the flash mob that Stupid aging Thomas imagines he summoned to my doorstep. Just to get some soup. But it feels funny to entertain the scenarios that only he somehow feels a need to get out of his system that way).

Anyway, if I remember correctly what you wrote, and leaving aside abortions and embryos and whatever you feel as opposed to what the GOP/Vatican feel and SCOTUS felt in 1972, your objections seem to relate to an inability/unwillingness to entertain multicausality. Yes, planetary systems are complex, and as with human physiology, just because there isn't a one-to-one correlation doesn't mean there's NO correlation. This caveat has to be considered. There can be ebbs and flows in response without refuting that a response occurs.

You also bring up the issue of names, which is pretty irrelevant and largely another political consideration - at least insofar as how you object to it. But there is a rationale for the name change. People don't seem capable of understanding that average, global temperature is a VERY big thing, and different from just how their own weather patterns feel to them personally. As an example, we had a bit of a strong winter this year. Well, that seems to be because the trends have broken the "shield" of air that used to separate the arctic from the temperate climates. So we're getting more of their crap during the winter. Does that mean the average between that area and ours isn't still rising? Of course not.

Links shouldn't be necessary. Your points/reasoning seemed clear enough. Wrong, but clear.

Use of terms like "prima facie" also seems that you're stuck in a trial lawyer mode instead of empirical mode. Again with the aspersions. It's ok.

But as far as where the weather's going, I'll trust the resources that are neutral. And again, with a multi-causal system, there can be a lull in a trend without negating a trend.

Finally, regarding "fooling", you do what you want with your own neck of the woods. But global public resources should be treated cautiously and with care. It's conservative to not mess with a system even if it was just on the off-chance (which it's not) that you could screw it up.

And not that it matters at all, but fossils are a losing game. Michio Kaku says the dropping price of solar will make it competitive with fossils in about 7 years. He also says that the availability of abundant, clean fusion technology should make this whole debate obsolete in about 17. Now those are just predictions, but you should check out his YouTube videos and tell me if you really think that you're going to sources that are better informed than him.

Shouting Thomas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
O Ritmo Segundo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
O Ritmo Segundo said...

Mr. Segundo, if you are a scientist, what caused the last ice age? Is it the Milankovitch cycle? Are you sure? How long will the present interglacial warm period last?

It doesn't matter so much as it does the unpredictability that's introduced into the system by changing CO2 levels to what they were before plants came and made life possible for not only dinosaurs, but us.

We survived previous ice ages, we can survive more. Surviving an artificially Venusian atmosphere, though - I'm not so sure.

Anyway, regarding the supposedly infallible morality of edicts from Rome, you might want to ask the North American Indians and Marrano Jews what they thought of that.

Science doesn't have to be ethically prescriptive, but it's stupid to refuse consideration of the best science in any matter, including some moral ones, on the basis of un-empiric and anti-empiric traditions alone. Once a certain church can take from and atone for what it's doing to biology in the same way that it had to do regarding astronomy and Galileo, then I'll listen to what it has to say on these matters.

Shouting Thomas said...

Ritmo the Retard...

FYI. This is a comments thread in a weblog.

Ground control to Major Tom...

O Ritmo Segundo said...

FYI. This is a comments thread in a weblog.

Ground control to Major Tom...


Control Freak's objection to an informed discussion are noted. And ignored.

I think I can get a second on that motion to ignore from virgil xenophon.

Are you used to being interrupted, or something? Am I interrupting your own conversations?

Rabel said...

Terrible study from which to draw any conclusions. You can read their summary here and see more details from their book here.

A few problems:
Very small sample size - 42 children.
Selection bias - some of those professionals were fellow professors who were were familiar with their work.
Observation effects - the parents knew too much.

What's not made clear in the article is that the greatest variable in the number of words spoken was the amount of time spent in interaction with the children.

But if you want to feel hopeless about the situation, check out the graph on page 251 of the book. Note the triangles.

Shouting Thomas said...

Ritmo the Retard, you are one of the great idiots I've ever encountered.

Here, look at this picture!

Now, cease your dumb ass act for a while. If you can.

Michael said...

Roux. The numbers given in the article cannot be correct. At the rate you suggest the well educated talkers dont make 30 million words in three years making the alleged 30 million word deficit impossible. Perhaps the " journalist" decided to do her own math and used 20 hour days. It does not, as they say, add up.

ken in sc said...

The idea of people reading without comprehension rings a bell with with me. I once taught a class called physics for pre-engineers, to 10th and 11th graders. The text book was named Mechanical Devices and Systems. It had a lot of illustrations and examples of how sprockets, gears, and bell-cranks worked. Gear ratios, chain length formulas and so forth. The students could read the words of the text perfectly, but had no idea what the words meant. I had to show them. Many of them still could not understand.

BTW, I once took a graduate level history course in which we were supposed to read and discus writings from the 17th century. The instructor did not understand the readings as well as I did because he was not familiar with the King James version of the Bible. It was the first time I noticed the Emperor’s new clothes.

Michael said...

Roux. The numbers given in the article cannot be correct. At the rate you suggest the well educated talkers dont make 30 million words in three years making the alleged 30 million word deficit impossible. Perhaps the " journalist" decided to do her own math and used 20 hour days. It does not, as they say, add up.

Tim said...

edutcher said...

"Head Start was supposed to fix this.

Now we know how much government "help" does."


No bigger failure in the history of the US government than it's "War on Poverty."

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Here, look at this picture!

Now, cease your dumb ass act for a while. If you can.


I noticed one thing about that utterly vacuous, unoriginal, tedious and inane link - and the photo of the two ugly bozos on it: It has no comments.

Actually, most of the posts on that ridiculous site have no comments. Small wonder, huh?

However, here alone, I am talking with virgil xenophon, roger j., Illuminati, chickelit, and depending on what you think of how her criticism has handled, Michelle Dulak Thomson.

This doesn't include the dismissive insults from novennomen nor mine to Mary. And I'm sure I can always strike up a conversation with Inga or Baron Zemo.

This must really piss you off, for some reason. But don't worry, T. There are plenty of social masturbators like yourself out there in the world.

Perhaps you could even join a group that meets on weekday evenings at your local church.

Shouting Thomas said...

As I said, Ritmo the Retard, nothing can shake your from your indomitable stupidity.

You are a monument to stupidity. Humorless stupidity at that.

Synova said...

"Synova--my lady and I visited spain last fall and toured a wonderful medieval church in the hinterlands--it had the oldest organ in the province of Leon--and the pipes were in the shape of trumpets--I regret that I never heard it played. The design of organs is one of the high points in music again IMO."

There used to be a surprising number of pipe organs in little churches in the mid-west. The bellows would spring a leak and no one knew how to fix it so they'd sit and gather dust while the church bought a new electric organ. My dad has taken several broken organs out of churches and fixed them all up and sold them and installed them... He installed a 34 rank, 2000 pipe organ in Minneapolis and is currently putting a 800-900 pipe organ into a church in a small town near where my folks live. He repairs reed organs, too.

No one hardly does this but when someone finds out that, either, they really can get their old family heirloom fixed that hasn't been played for 80 years, or they really can get an honest to goodness pipe organ in their church it's really popular.

I haven't been home often enough to do anything more than help tune the pipes in a really tiny tiny country church. It's one of the first ones he repaired and installed.

My dad amazes me.

Nomennovum said...

Perhaps the " journalist" decided to do her own math and used 20 hour days. It does not, as they say, add up.

What you're saying is that the NY Times reporter is an innumerate idiot who cannot do the most basic math. What you're saying is we can trust nothing that is written in the newpaper of record -- indeed, we can trust nothing that is said in any of the media.

What Rabel is saying is that "scientific" studies that have clear public policy implications cannot be trusted, because they are fashioned with a conclusion already in mind.

Yet still we read newspapers, listen to cable news, and nod at every nonsensical study that comes down the pike. And we continue to vote for obvious bullshit artists.

What gives? Do we all want to live in a fantasy world? Asked and answered.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

As I said, Ritmo the Retard, nothing can shake your from your indomitable stupidity.

You are a monument to stupidity. Humorless stupidity at that.


And yet, you hang on my every word.

You are either in love with me, identify with stupidity or (most likely) feel self-conscious about what a stupid, drooling asshole you are and wish to remedy that somehow.

You are about as useful a social virus to society as Charles Manson. Seriously, someone should castrate you. Painfully. And then they should do something that to that poor excuse for a salt shaker that you have sitting atop your shoulders. Removing it to a mantle and putting flowers inside it would be a start. They would be well fertilized.

Shouting Thomas said...

You are either in love with me, identify with stupidity or (most likely) feel self-conscious about what a stupid, drooling asshole you are and wish to remedy that somehow.

No, the really interesting thing about you, Ritmo the Retard is your stupidity.

It is fascinating to observe such deep, relentless stupidity. And, you're proud of it!

Now, I'm off to record some songs. I'll give you the last word. I'm giving you some bait here so that you can cap off tonight's performance with a crowning act of stupidity. Don't disappoint me.

Henry said...

From the article: The idea has been successfully put into practice a few times on a small scale, but it is about to get its first large-scale test, in Providence, R.I., which last month won the $5 million grand prize in Bloomberg Philanthropies’ Mayors Challenge, beating 300 other cities for best new idea.

Is Curt Schilling involved in this somehow?

Alex said...

I'm amazed nobody has brought up the racial demographics of this issue. I really do want to know the breakdown between whites, blacks and browns.

Henry said...

So why aren't the kids of introverts stupid?

Henry said...

The punchlines write themselves.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

So you find stupidity interesting, then? Endlessly, deeply fascinating, even?

I think this revelation by St. Thomas tells us all what a shit-for-brains he really is.

Thomas, you might want to check your guitar case. It seems a disgruntled fan of your second-rate honkey tonk "music" defecated in it.

There was more talent in the house bar on Tatooine in Star Wars than there is in any act containing Thomas.

My, my does he revel in negative attention.

Alex said...

Ritmo - for one that counts himself as being oh so smart, you say really stupid things. But you are the product of modern affirmative action society.

Henry said...

Snip: A persuasive answer comes from Meredith Rowe, now an assistant professor at the University of Maryland. She found that poor women were simply unaware that it was important to talk more to their babies — no one had told them about this piece of child development research. Poorer mothers tend to depend on friends and relatives for parenting advice, who may not be up on the latest data.

This really sums up what I hate about leftism. The idea that the problem with people is not enough mandarins.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

kentuckyliz,

appreciate my parents' efforts to teach us music, literature, theatre, art, fine dining, and proper manners. We only had classical music on the radio at my house. And only the well ordered stuff. If some contemporary dystonic dissonant crap came on, Dad would yell, "Dissonance!" and run to turn off the hi fi. I honestly believe that having that music as our background shaped our brains like a disk being formatted--well ordered, calm, orderly.

Well, you obviously missed one great Mozart quartet, that is actually known as "The Dissonance."

More to the point, "well-ordered, calm, orderly" is about the reverse of what "classical music" is to me. The whole point of the classical style is surprise and confounded expectations. You are led to expect A, and you get B, C, D, X. If your idea of classical music is to bathe in some soothing syrup of calmitude ... Ur Doin It Rong. And I can write it that way because I am reasonably certain I know an awful lot more classical music than you do.

traditionalguy said...

I just listened to Cannery Row on a new Audible download.

Steinbeck's little gem about characters in Monterey reminded me that great writers affirm life.

Mack and the boys, Lee Chong and Steinbeck's best friend, the Doc display intelligence and character of real men.

And now on to Masters week. What a great spring.

Gahrie said...

No bigger failure in the history of the US government than it's "War on Poverty."

Actually, if you compare the standard of living, instead of income, the war on poverty has been a huge success. Most "poor" people in the United States have a higher standard of living than the upper middle class in the rest of the world. For christ sakes, the biggest problem the poor have in the United States is obesity, not starvation!

The real problem is that there is an ever increasing underclass that depends entirely on the government to provide that standard of living.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Ritmo - for one that counts himself as being oh so smart, you say really stupid things. But you are the product of modern affirmative action society.

Alex is the epitome of a very different sort of empty bluster than the one Thomas embodies.

He can't take factual or rational issue with anything stated, and so just goes, "nanny nanny boo-boo, you are STOOPID!"

Very brave sort of accurate pot shot for you to make. But a schizo like yourself must learn to be vague when you're not on every side of an issue.

Henry said...

This reminds me very much of the grand plans to create genius infants by blasting them with classical music.

Alex said...

Ritmo - forgive me for being a complex person.

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