"... Just as he’d gotten his life’s work going, just as he was planting the seeds of a new society, just as he was gaining followers willing to give up everything for justice and love, he found out he was probably going to die, at the age of 33...."
When has your life experience caused you to change which character you identify with in an old story?
Or is this a big sermon cliché? First, we identify with the sleeping disciples because blah blah blah but then etc. etc....
Eh. Maybe it's a big but great cliché. Let's have your examples.
I can't offhand think of any of my own, but I think of that mother in the BBC documentary we were watching last night who described her son as always identifying with the villain in the story and who gives — as her one example — Cruella De Vil. It's a power fantasy, and he doesn't seem to mind — mom says — that the character loses in the end. She probably thinks the BBC documentary viewer identifies with her, the devoted mother of a difficult child. Why would she have invited the documentarians into her home otherwise?
It's a cliché of documentaries to lure us into identifying with one character and then tempting, then forcing us to switch to another character. How else are you going to build narrative energy? And yet you invite these devils into your home. They seem so empathetic as you open up not just your house but your soul.
I said I couldn't offhand think of any examples of my own, shifting from empathizing with one character to another. But now, in the context of that BBC documentary, I realize I do it all the time in blog posts. I get interested in one person, and I start writing, and I find — make?! — a narrative thread that ends up turning my empathy around. I'll bet there are over 1,000 examples of my doing that in this archive.
Perhaps you should turn against me. Perhaps I am the devil you've let into your house.
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It's human nature to shift allegiances as circumstances dictate. Life is not stagnant.
Principles are different though.
And one must feel empathy to align with someone, no?
Inga. How would you explain the shift in "principle" of politicians who were against SSM but are now in favor of it. And act as if they always were.
Inga. How would you explain the shift in "principle" of politicians who were against SSM but are now in favor of it. And act as if they always were.
Cruella de Vil, Roger's musical inspiration.
Spending time with my brother makes me understand why death following cancer is such a release. (Bone, in his case).
At least it's sunny and warm down here in Washington County (Madison's weather is abysmal). Maybe I can get him out into the sun later today.
Re: "Perhaps I am the devil you've let into your house."
I would think the reverse applies, also.
Devils, robots, those Who Listen in the Walls -- we all know what you are thinking.
And what you are thinking now is of looking through shelves and boxes of notebooks and papers to find your Klee notebook.
Note: this might not be transpiring quite yet: I am sometimes Living Presently in the Future.
The Devil is in the Details and the Details are in the Painting and the Painting is in the Book and the Book is on the Shelf.
Note especially how Cruella rings the doorbell in that short clip:
dinga...dINGAaaa
[short burst followed by long burst]
Michael said...
Inga. How would you explain the shift in "principle" of politicians who were against SSM but are now in favor of it. And act as if they always were.
$$M
I was watching The Hand That Rocks the Cradle back in the early '90's (or whenever it was) and realized that I found the evil nanny a much more sympathetic character than the vomitous, smug, crypto-racist, whining, douchey couple who were supposedly her victims. Just one step on my road to conservatism.
just as he was planting the seeds of a new society
Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.
Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.
Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there also will my servant be. The Father will honor whoever serves me.
I am troubled now. Yet what should I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But it was for this purpose that I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name."
Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it and will glorify it again."
--Jn 12
Michael, perhaps the politician in question didn't feel empathy toward a gay person or their constitutional rights until his son came out and he then shifted his alliance because he had an epiphany perhaps. Who really knows.
As for the politicians like Obama who "evolved", I have more skepticism toward. But even if his principles were not sincere, he recognized he was wrong in his original stance.
"Maybe I can get him out into the sun later today."
At my bottom in the hospital sick on chemo and completely helpless, my most intense desire was to sit in the sun and feel a warm breeze. It drove me crazy wanting it so bad. I dreamed of it hour after hour. Take him.
Jesus promised eternal life. In Judaism there is no such promise, or at least nothing so specific. I'd wager the millions who turned to Christianity did it primarily because of that promise, not for justice or universal love, whatever those two terms mean.
My empathy for the Devil's Advocate comes and goes. Sometimes I think he is just being a Bastard but then later I find that I kinda like the Guy...
Based on the link before I clicked, I thought Andrew Sullivan had cancer. But that article by Ashley Makar is fantastic, with such exquisite emotion.
Inga. I was trying to hone in on your statement regarding principles which i took to mean that they were not subject to the winds of opinion, but i might have misunderstood.
Identifying with the villain is a fantasy used by people who can't fit in with everyone else, remember how Uncle Saul dedicated Rules For Radicals to Lucifer?
Same for many of our little trolls.
Ann Althouse said...
Perhaps you should turn against me. Perhaps I am the devil you've let into your house.
No, you're our lovable Liberal; the one who reminds us that, although Liberalism has been perverted by the malevolent Left, the idea that we should be open to ideas until we have reason to reject them.
MadisonMan said...
Spending time with my brother makes me understand why death following cancer is such a release. (Bone, in his case)
Same with anyone with Alzheimer's. It takes a while to get over the fact that the release is not only for the victim, but those who care about him/her.
Inga said...
It's human nature to shift allegiances as circumstances dictate. Life is not stagnant.
Leave it to the She Devil of the SS to make disloyalty the norm.
This is how she lets the guys at Auschwitz off the hook.
Michael, principles are not subject to change with the winds of opinion. What in my comment makes you think I don't mean exactly what I said? I really should know better than to engage you in any honest discussion.
Working on my income taxes makes me identify with Tiger.
This is how she lets the guys at Auschwitz off the hook.
Lots of innocent people never got off the hook at Plotzensee--alive that is.
EdBUTCHER, you continuously make this assertion regarding Auschwitz, are you totally insane ? What is wrong with you? Really how dare you? You sickening excuse for a man.
And Chickelit, be careful.
"And what you are thinking now is of looking through shelves and boxes of notebooks and papers to find your Klee notebook."
Well, that caused me to look for it and I found notebooks but not that notebook. It was a scary memory trip!
Re: "It was a scary memory trip!"
Sometimes I think we leave time capsules for our older self to find.
"Perhaps I am the devil you've let into your house."
Now I'm beginning to understand the thing about anserwing the doorbell.
Perhaps I am the devil you've let into your house.
This is so funny...
I was going to comment on "When the church is self-referential inadvertently, she believes she has her own light..." tread, how (of late) you were self-referencing, going back and referencing old treads.
But I couldn't tie it, neatly enough to understand it myself, to the glowing/luminosity of the Great Gatsby sentences. So I gave up.
One day you are a saint, and the devil the next.
Shifting of empathy is normal. Shifting of favor to the underdog is normal.
And a wise Hebrew prophet points out that,"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the Word of our God endures forever."
Ann,
The talk of Klee (and paintings in general) makes me think that a Gatsby-esque post series on an artist(s)' paintings could be fun: people may not feel inclined to respond to a sentence, but putting up a post on a specific Picasso work (for instance) would probably get some wild swings at the pinata...
Bagoh, that's the plan, but the cumulative effects of chemo -- round #3 this week -- are wearing on him mightily. I wish he could get a good night's sleep, but that is very elusive for him.
Seriously, the continued exposure to Althouse's mind expands a soul's acceptance of art culture and genius writers. So she qualifies as a magical siren of sorts.
But she then adds dog pictures and earth landscapes to bring us back to earth.
MadisonMan said...
...but the cumulative effects of chemo -- round #3 this week -- are wearing on him mightily. I wish he could get a good night's sleep, but that is very elusive for him."
My prayers are with you and your brother. Went through that with my mother -- the world takes on a different shape.
Well, there is the Opera Carmen. When I was young I was quite taken with Carmen, she was exciting, exotic, and wild while Don Jose was dull bore. Later on my sympathies completely reversed. Old Don Jose appeared a decent bloke ruined by an unfortunate passion while Carmen showed herself exploitive and self absorbed. She was bad news.
Soooo in a BBC doc a mother tells of her son who always identifies with the villain.
Is the kid so brain-damaged that he fails to notice that the villain *loses* 99.999999% of the time?
Re: "Well, there is the Opera Carmen."
I think this also applies to Carmen Electra.
Karmann Ghias not so much.
"Sometimes I think we leave time capsules for our older self to find."
Yes, but I must stage a bonfire before I die. The question is: When?
Your desires get very simple, basic, primal, and you wonder why you paid so little attention to those in the past.
"Now I'm beginning to understand the thing about anserwing the doorbell."
Yes, I'm like the lady in that "Twilight Zone" episode. But there are not Robert Redfords in sight.
Unless.... Meade!
"I was going to comment on "When the church is self-referential inadvertently, she believes she has her own light..." tread, how (of late) you were self-referencing, going back and referencing old treads."
Treads, eh? It has been quite the slog, no?
"The question is: When?"
Today?
I heard that you can find directions for making fire on the internet.
"there are not Robert Redfords in sight."
Not even at Robert Redford's house these days.
When has your life experience caused you to change which character you identify with in an old story?
I used to really hate Osama bin Laden until I heard that Patty Murray said that he established daycare centers all over Afghanistan.
One thing found in an old notebook was a rant that I seemed quite bizarre and paranoid and I tried to remember what would have set me off to write that. I felt bad about myself and that I needed to destroy this, but then I paged back to the beginning and I saw that it was a fragment in the voice of a character in a novel (never written).
Bonfires of the mind, plenty of that here.
I recently had a very traumatic experience, the details don't matter, but it did make me sympathize (in the sense of understand) the many people who stop striving, for lack of a better term, after they've received a particularly strong warning in the form of a blow. Yes, they lack the courage. Now I understand why a little better.
"I heard that you can find directions for making fire on the internet."
Setting the fire is the easy part. Collecting everything that might belong in the fire is hard enough. Culling through and drawing the line between burnables and memorabilia is the hard part, and then I'm subject to the constant distraction of the line between personal items and bloggables.
"I heard that you can find directions for making fire on the internet."
Setting the fire is the easy part. Collecting everything that might belong in the fire is hard enough. Culling through and drawing the line between burnables and memorabilia is the hard part, and then I'm subject to the constant distraction of the line between personal items and bloggables.
That Redford in the Twilight Zone was really unfair use of good looks by death; that's cheating. Even I would let him sleep on my couch.
Treads, eh? It has been quite the slog, no?
Ha!
Althouse sheds light on my weakness for puns.
I wont forget to use the portal, should I need new treads... that's a promise.
" drawing the line between burnables and memorabilia is the hard part"
Oh that's easy. If it doesn't burn, it's not burnable.
Also bonfires of the vanities.
Inga. Can you explain what this means?
"It's human nature to shift allegiances as circumstances dictate. Life is not stagnant.
Principles are different though"
How ar principles different?
@Ann,
"Sometimes I think we leave time capsules for our older self to find."
Yes, but I must stage a bonfire before I die. The question is: When?
Speaking of bonfires, and old stories...Earth's Holocaust, by Nathanael Hawthorne.
I don't think I identify with any character in that tale. Unless it be the narrator, swept along by a torrent of unexpected changes.
Ann,
AH! The ever pesent look at me meme.
"LOOK AT ME DADDY!!!" "
"LOOK AT ME NOW!"
It all reverts to your childhood need for attention. But, do not worry. For we are looking at you, at your blog posts, at your photos, at your videos and at imported GIF animations. We are also listening to you and to your music choices.
We are paying attention to you. We are feeding your insatiable need to be noticed, to be admired, to provoke thought and to converse.
We love you for your ability to inspire us to think about ideas and realities that we would not consider if you were not here.
Even if you drive some of us looney with the speed and ease with which you traverse from one position to another or from supporting one personality to another.
Still, life is about change and motion and you are a very "alive" person.
Ann,
AH! The ever pesent look at me meme.
"LOOK AT ME DADDY!!!" "
"LOOK AT ME NOW!"
It all reverts to your childhood need for attention. But, do not worry. For we are looking at you, at your blog posts, at your photos, at your videos and at imported GIF animations. We are also listening to you and to your music choices.
We are paying attention to you. We are feeding your insatiable need to be noticed, to be admired, to provoke thought and to converse.
We love you for your ability to inspire us to think about ideas and realities that we would not consider if you were not here.
Even if you drive some of us looney with the speed and ease with which you traverse from one position to another or from supporting one personality to another.
Still, life is about change and motion and you are a very "alive" person.
Dynamic was the word I was looking for earlier, life is dynamic.
I've lived with the reality of photography my whole life, but I still marvel at the very idea of it. An old photo is a time capsule. It can bring back what you were doing at the time, how you dressed, even what you were thinking. It's still magic to me, and maybe one of the greatest inventions of all time.
I'm looking forward to the ability to record and replay dreams. I had a great one last night, and it was entirely my own creation. I clearly do my best work while asleep, and I mean that in every way. In other words, I'm awesome in bed, even if only in my head. We got to get that stuff out somehow.
MadisonMan, Washington County, Arkansas or Washington County, Wisconsin? Sorry your brother is having to endure all that. He'll be in our family's prayers.
Freeman, it can't be Washington County WI, it's COLD here, overcast. I'm in a neighboring county very close to the Washington County border.
Ann plays the role of the Debbil? Does she wear a blue dress when so doing? And dance to the tune at the same time? Inquiring minds..
The devil wears a red dress.
MM, If you're in Arkansas and email me with an address, I'll bring dinner to you and yours.
Hey bagoh, haven't you heard? the best sleep is sleep without dreams. Well, according to George Jones anyway.
Becoming a law firm partner caused me to identify with the Lord of the Nazgul (or Denethor) ruling from behind, driving my forces forward in madness.
Email: freeman -dot- hunt -at- gmail -dot- com
I would email you, but I couldn't find your email address on your blog.
No to everything. Bah humbug on relating to characters in literature. That is one way literature destroys, by pigeonholing and such. [Why Literature is Bad for You James I'llrememberitinaminute Thorpe, that's it.]
The truly splendid portion of that episode is how it links to previous episodes when you flat do not see it coming. Of course you do because you know the ending already.
Throughout the brief three-year or so ministry through Palestine the apostles kept waiting to see Jesus do something really EARTH shaking. The apostles kept asking when was he going into Jerusalem and claim the Kingdom of heaven? When? Come on. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. And Jesus persistently answered them, "My hour is not yet come."
Frusss tra tinnnnnng
It was a bummer of an answer because it meant they had to keep administering to poor people instead of kicking out the Romans and being triumphant and everything.
Throughout the period of teaching and administering to poor the religious authority tried to entrap Jesus in some legaleze of this or that sort, as you know, eating grain on sabbath, whatever, parables developed to elude, he avoided Jerusalem to his apostles' chagrin. They wanted action. Then finally, when the authority was closing in Jesus slipped in and out walled Jerusalem quite dangerously over a period of days agitating further and at the point of gravest danger when all the apostles were in agreement they must make a dash for it FROM Jerusalem to escape disaster Jesus calmly announced his hour is come they will enter Jerusalem publicly on the morrow.
His apostles were stunned, dismayed, filled with fear.
I love that part so much.
Reading along it goes POW there it is. You could burst when you read it because you know what happens.
Let's go to Jerusalem -- My hour is not come
Let's go to Jerusalem -- My hour is not come
Let's go to Jerusalem -- My hour is not come
Let's go to Jerusalem -- My hour is not come
Let's go to Jerusalem -- My hour is not come
Let's go to Jerusalem -- My hour is not come
Let's go to Jerusalem -- My hour is not come
Let's get out of here -- My hour is come.
bagoh20 said...
An old photo is a time capsule. It can bring back what you were doing at the time, how you dressed, even what you were thinking. It's still magic to me, and maybe one of the greatest inventions of all time.
Yes to all but the magic part. Old photos of friends and family mostly just make me feel tremendously sad. I want all those people, now dead, here with me now.
Ann Althouse mused...
Yes, but I must stage a bonfire before I die. The question is: When?
Zürchers have an annual festival called Sechseläuten where they burn a huge strawman called Böögg (etymologically related to our term "boogeyman"). By tradition, this happens every year on the third Monday of April which means tomorrow, April 15th, 2013.
Maybe could burn some "Blöögg" tomorrow?
Madman
I'm sorry to hear about your brother. Lost my Dad this .in Jan. to lung cancer. I'll pray for him and you. Be strong
In my battle with tumors I wanted grapes...fed to me by toga clad women. I had actual dreams of it.-lol
On the other hand if you must related to a character in literature you could not do better than Jesus. His story of suffering is inspiration to sufferers. His representation in Catholic hospitals is meaningful beyond decoration.
And I'll admit that I do that matching outwardly, I project it by asking, "Okay, now which character in which dystopian novel are YOU?" But that's only because it appears they've been picked up as user manuals and I'm interested in knowing which one they're using when it looks like all of them all at once, Atlas Shrugged, 1984, Animal Farm are my favorite heaviest flogged matchups.
Inga said...
EdBUTCHER, you continuously make this assertion regarding Auschwitz, are you totally insane ? What is wrong with you? Really how dare you? You sickening excuse for a man.
Fluke you and stick it up your pet wussy. You said it and, if you don't like being reminded of it when you play your little games, then recant.
Otherwise, spare us all the melodrama.
Ann Althouse said...
Now I'm beginning to understand the thing about anserwing the doorbell.
Yes, I'm like the lady in that "Twilight Zone" episode.
I had a similar thought regarding your reluctance last evening and I hope that's not the reason.
Take care.
"Yes, but I must stage a bonfire before I die. The question is: When?"
I feel the same way about my porn stash.
EdBUTCHER, what a disgusting vulgar little creature you are. Shudder.
EdBUTCHER, why do you remind me so of Gollum? Edbutcher to Althouse, "Ohhhhhh, my preciousssssss".
Most of it is burnable. Those poems you wrote in adolescence will be surprisingly disposable, even to those who hold your memory dearly. In two generations they'll just be combustion loading. Part of aging with dignity is lopping chunks of your vanity away as you go.
Meade, would you please tell Gollum and Chickelit that it was not I at your door yesterday?
Somebody's probably already pointed this out: Jesus was born knowing he was going to die and warned his disciples many times that it was coming.
Inga said...
EdBUTCHER, why do you remind me so of Gollum? Edbutcher to Althouse, "Ohhhhhh, my preciousssssss".
Hah! You're still trying to figure it out, I see.
Carnifex said...
In my battle with tumors I wanted grapes...fed to me by toga clad women. I had actual dreams of it.-lol
Roman women didn't wear togae, but were a bit more gracefully dressed.
Next time, dream of gladiatrixes, they just wore bikinis - sometimes.
Hope you feel a little better.
The villain of the movie states his justification, and from the perspective of two decades he doesn't sound so villainous any more.
Colonel Jessup: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns, who's gonna do it? You? You Lt. Wienberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury, you have that luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's tragic death probably saved lives, and my existence, grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as a backbone of a life spent defending something, you use them as a punch line. ÜI have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man that rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the matter in which I provide it. I'd rather you just said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post, either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
Most of my switches are due to age. However a cancer diagnosis is big, so I don't think it's fair to reduce it to a big sermon cliché. The woman [?] who made that comment would suddenly understand what it is to "sweat blood" with fear at your imminent demise - which she could not have known before and which would change her perspective so that she understood Jesus not letting up on his sleepy disciples.
Ricpic said-- Jesus promised eternal life. In Judaism there is no such promise, or at least nothing so specific. I'd wager the millions who turned to Christianity did it primarily because of that promise, not for justice or universal love, whatever those two terms mean.
Not completely true: there were two groups of Jews: the Pharisees and the Sadducees. The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead and an afterlife that included both reward or punishment. Saul, who became Paul, was a Pharisee. By the way, the Pharisees were primarily the businessmen. The Sadducees were the elite upper class.
Rabel retorted: I feel the same way about my porn stash.
Why not just shave it off and be done with it?
Bait and switch.
Since my _______ (blank) I'm beginning to emphasize with Chaz Bono.
There was a game show like that.
Freeman, you are very kind to offer, and I so much appreciate it. The brother is having a bad weekend, so food isn't working very well at the moment.
When I was dx'd w/cancer and doing the life-retrospective, I told my daughter "I wish I would have danced more."
I am very shy and I love to dance, but I am a horrible dancer, hence despite the desire to dance at events, I wouldn't. So it's also a metaphor for the countless things I wished had done but didn't out fear and shyness.
Odd thing is, I am doing well, but still too shy to dance.
Yeah, M*A*S*H. I feel much less warm towards Hawkeye and Trapper and BJ and a little less creeped out by Frank Burns. Major Houlihan I always thought was doing her best. And of course Winchester just kept on doing what he was doing, did it very well, then moved on. But it amazes me to look back and perceive how predatory and jejune the protagonists were.
Several years ago it looked very much like I had a blood borne illness, and the doc had already told me that if it didn't kill me outright that the treatment was likely to do so. He really did paint it black. During the week or so I had to wait for the complicated testing to come back, I awoke twice in the night with the phrase "Let this cup pass from me" going through my head on a loop. Scary shit.
"Becoming a law firm partner caused me to identify with the Myrdrall, driving the Trollocs forward in madness."
Updated that for you.
MadisonMan, I didn't think your brother would be up for food, but if you and anyone else who is there with you get hungry, drop me a line. (I know it can be hard to leave to run errands like picking up food when you are visiting or taking care of someone who is ill.) It would be no problem at all. Not even a little, tiny, tiny problem. It would be my pleasure.
There's a sandy beach off the Sea of Cortes where you can play golf from one sand trap to another. All sand.
"Perhaps you should turn against me. Perhaps I am the devil you've let into your house."
How feline of you Althouse.
Take this cup away from me
For I don't want to taste its poison
Feel it burn me
Makar's premise is completely bogus. Jesus didn't suddenly "find out he was going to die". He knew it all along. It was not a surprise revelation.
Marx said,
"Those are my principles and if you don't like them-well I have others"
Listen to the This American Life story called "Midlife Cowboy" -- it's one of the greatest shifts I've ever felt.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/402/save-the-day
MadisonMan,
I went through a very similar situation. Someone very close to me, basically my surrogate father, was diagnosed with metastatic adenocarcinoma, and I had to care for him for most of his illness, to watch him suffer, to watch him give up hope, to watch him surrender his dreams for a dream of death. The lesions destroyed his brain, and death was (it's still embarrassing for me to admit) a blessed release when it came. He died in the hospice ward, his hair having quickly grown back after the torture of chemotherapy ceased, after only one futile round of proton bombardment, and not long after having a last outing gunning a Plymouth Barracuda around a parking lot late at night.
My prayers to you and your brother and your family.
Yeah, the Jesus empathy thing only makes sense if one is a nonbeliever reading the story as literature. Otherwise it is frankly blasphemous.
When has your life experience caused you to change which character you identify with in an old story?
Which "life experience" would that be? First marriage or second? First cancer diagnosis for my first wife? Or the second? The death of my first wife? Or the death of the second?
I've always been inclined to identify with the villains. And tried to be a good guy in person. Not sure where that leaves me.
backhoe
I really got lost on how this relates to the mother in the BBC documentary.
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