April 12, 2013
"Amanda Palmer: The art of asking."
Beautiful! I love that. I loved it even before I got to the part where I understood that Amanda Palmer is the singer in The Dresden Dolls, who did this song, which I've embedded before:
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Something told me I shouldn't click on that link. Something about the picture. And then when I clicked anyway, and that damned TED thing started up, I thought "never should have clicked".
I have something to ask. May I please redraw your eyebrows?
Of course, everyone is going to love her.
She's warm, tall, beautiful, gifted, and wants to experience life and is confident in the way she is experiencing it.
But, she is living hypocrisy. She meets lonely people, and they move on, to be lonely again. It's for her experience, not theirs. And the money, using her looks, I thought you wouldn't care for that, Ann.
Or, maybe it has a place? I worry about temporary relief, for really lonely people, because that single touch can push them down so much, when they realize the burdens they have been carrying.
She is very bold and trusting. Not many of us could trust strangers so blindly. Are those eyebrows tattoed? Bold.
Not to be intentionally contrarian but I am totally unimpressed by the TED talks.
A perfect mate for that 21 years old washed up college woman.
She got so much sh*t for this TED talk.
On commas, semi-colons, and colons:
And the money, using her looks, I thought you wouldn't care for that, Ann.
And the money, using her looks; I thought you wouldn't care for that, Ann.
About the money she got, from using her looks: I thought you wouldn't care for that, Ann.
From Wit;:
In the edition you chose,
this profoundly simple meaning...
is sacrificed to hysterical punctuation.
"And Death" capital D...
"shall be no more;" semi-colon.
"Death," capital D, comma...
"thou shalt die!", exclamation mark.
If you go in for this sort of thing
I suggest you take up Shakespeare.
Gardner's edition of the Holy Sonnets...
returns to the Westmoreland
manuscript source of .
Not for sentimental reasons,
I assure you...
but because Helen Gardner is a scholar.
It reads:
"And death shall be no more," comma...
"Death thou shalt die."
Nothing but a breath, a comma...
separates life from life everlasting.
Very simple, really.
The original John Donne poem:
HOLY SONNETS.
X.
Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so ;
For those, whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy picture[s] be,
Much pleasure, then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou'rt slave to Fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy, or charms can make us sleep as well,
And better than thy stroke ; why swell'st thou then ?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally,
And Death shall be no more ; Death, thou shalt die.
Life of a liberal arts college grad.
Does she pay income, FICA and Medicare taxes on the money she "asked for"? Does she pay the Obamacare tax?
She definitely got some serious blowback from her Kickstarter. Frankly, I think if she's making a living at this and doing well, more power to her.
Not bad for someone who graduated from a good liberal arts college.
So she is mostly a taker, and loves how that works out for her. Yea, beautiful.
I do like her point about facing people when you ask for free stuff. That's different.
I can't ask for anything for free. I always want to be the giver, and I notice most people are fine with that. I think it comes from my Dad. When I was very young, he reprimanded me for thanking him one time for money he gave me. He actually got mad. He said " Don't ever thank me. I'm your father; you are my responsibility; I love, and that's why I do it. I still don't quite understand that, but he drank a lot.
Recently,I have been trying to give in and accept things from others without offering to repay them, but it is really hard to do, since I have more than most people I know. I understand that it make them feel good, but it makes me feel bad. Still, I'm getting better at it. You all should feel free to send checks anytime. I need the practice. It would help me.
So she is mostly a taker, and loves how that works out for her. Yea, beautiful.
That was my reaction too. Turning it into some selfish experience? Well, good for her.
Of course, I'm still wanting to hear Ann's view if she had been a troglodyte, would it have worked. Somehow, I think not.
hey, that was awesome.
Seriously though, when you break that down, isn't she just basically taking advantage of people's generosity, and love, and using a novelty approach as an advertising gimmick to do it. Genius really, since she also manages to get some people to see her as brave, selfless, and special for it. To me it's just kind a new advertising idea for an old product. It's Blair Witch Project, or a free toy in a Happy Meal.
And let's face it voluntary poverty is old shtick, rarely lasting in entertainment. It almost always wears off quickly. Many have done it, but who in the past stuck with it long and hard? She'll be putting on the Ritz more than the couch very soon.
I dropped 25 bucks into a kickstarter project. I felt obligated because it was an acquaintance-business friend. Whatever. They needed money to buy a large gadget to help them with their private business. They thanked all who donated. The thank you was stated like this: "Thanks for investing in our company."
How was it an investment? It wasn't, it was a donation. I'm not a partner with a promise of a return.
At least this girl Amanda Palmer is giving "investors" something they want - music.
Bagoh: Leave the money out of it. What's disturbing is the emotional validation she gets from looking into lonely people's eyes, the people who haven't talked to someone for weeks.
Sure, she gives them a moment of Cocaine rush, but after that, it's over and she's advanced and they are in the same bad position as before.
Now I want a coin operated boy. Who wants to help me invest?
I've been a bit of a fan for years, sort of loosely reconnecting every year or so.
I didn't expect to find this here.
Made me smile.
Thanks.
Meh. I'm sure she's a nice person, but her story is unremarkable outside of giving us yet another example of our clone society. Tweet your needs and, if you're approved by the masses, they will flock. They are, after all, sitting facing their phones, waiting for something to give them purpose.
Amanda does nothing to improve my opinion of TED, which I find wanting a place of significance and importance but always leaving me feeling like I watched a dramatic presentation of a bag of marshmallows. I want to love it, but in the end, it's just a bag of marshmallows.
The thing I got out of it is that she started out as a giver, just standing there being a statue. A melodramatic statue. That was her art, and there is more to being a statue than meets the eye.
The turning point is the man who said, "Here's $10.00. I burned your cd off a friend."
There would be nothing around for her to take if she did not learn first give, learn resilience and to trust people.
She showed her crowdsourcing to be astonishing, asking for 100,000, a lot, and receiving 10x that much! And that was possible because she gave first and she trusted.
My strong distaste of her music video presented here is irrelevant. I lasted 33 seconds and feel I deserve a prize, but so what? The point I see is she is sharing her satisfaction on TED with finding personal validity through other people and by other people in ways that do not involve government or displaced loyalty to party.
(contrarily, $10 says she voted Obama)
(and too bad no ssm angle)
There are three basic deals:
1) You pay me to do something neither of us WANTS to do for free.
2) You pay me to do something that you CAN'T do.
3) You pay me so you feel better.
Often these involve me doing something I would do anyway, whether paid or not, and you still pay me, sucker.
3) You pay me so you feel better.
Isn't this the worst of the three?
It's Willer time!
So when she got this wonderful experience of looking into someone's eyes, she was taking the money right? She wasn't giving any. She just loved looking into their eyes. So why the hat. It would be "beautiful" to bring a hat full of money and do that, but charging people for pretending to care? That's kind of bogus, even if you do care.
O.K. I have completely overpowered my own mind with logic and clear thinking, and have forced myself to accept the fact that this is pure crap.
She has one of the best twitter accounts - haven't checked it lately, but really was quite the pioneer in 2006/7 in new ways of communicating and funding for musicians. Plus, she's a hoot.
Hey Bagoh, can I have $10? It will make you feel good.
Sure Inga, but $10 dollars won't be nearly enough. I want to feel really good. How much is that?
She figured out to get 25,0000 fans to act like a much larger fan base.
No fair. /
Dante: I don't believe you watched the whole talk since you continue to refer to the living statue part of the speech. Her larger point, her quasi not-totally-hippie-point is that she has been able to distribute her music free on the internet without the use of a label or a middleman and has instead simply asked her audience to pay her. Via crowd sourcing which apparently worked out very very well and more minor exchanges. What she leaves out is that she still charges tickets for her concerts inasmuch as the venue operators are more old fashioned and want their money up front. Interesting talk, very sincere, a bitcoin-ish approach to economics. Bound to fail.
Her larger point, her quasi not-totally-hippie-point is that she has been able to distribute her music free on the internet without the use of a label or a middleman and has instead simply asked her audience to pay her.
No, I didn't see the whole thing. I stopped when she expressed how wonderful it was when the illegal (or, undocumented) family let her sleep on their beds.
That was the end of it for me.
isn't she just basically taking advantage of people's generosity
Yes, but she's also generous herself. That's the point of her talk. She's rejecting the "cold" model of arms-length bargaining and contract, in favor of the "warm" model of people doing favors for one another.
Did you get the part where she's not charging for her music? People can take advantage of her, too.
She's all about vulnerability. And of course we're all vulnerable. We think, "I've got a contract, I can enforce this in court, I have power." But these things can be illusory.
Human connection is important. Her discussion wasn't about economics at all, in my opinion. As an economic model, I would not invest in that. But would I like to be friends with somebody like that? Yes indeed.
I guess living in a city with hundreds, maybe thousands of people asking for money with less than a dozen unique ideas among them, this just seems common and routine to me. I don't see anything unique here. Isn't this what people have been doing forever with shareware, and street performing. She kind of merges the two, but that's not unique except in her level of remuneration success. She is pretending she found something new, but I don't see it.
The moment she said "undocumented immigrants" I turned it off.
Did you get the part where she's not charging for her music? People can take advantage of her, too.
You don't know the value of this to her future career. Seeing as so many people remark on this point, I would guess there is some value to it.
Let's see where she is if she is having millions of downloads.
In any event, that's not my beef. My beef is the selfishness of her experience. People who really care do something about that kind of loneliness and despair. To her it was the experience.
bagoh20: Yes. The couch surfing and crowd sourcing are simply more modern, internet fueled and enhanced, modes of the same old under the radar economy, the untaxed economy for the most part. I am fine with this turn. In the fancy pants finance world in which I find myself I often provide services for free in the hopes that I will be repaid later in coin. Since my "audience" is generally quite small I am reliant on my own street smarts to know when to offer some work for free. And when not.
"Did you get the part where she's not charging for her music?"
No, she was paid plenty, and plenty of music today is free first. She knew she would get a lot of money, maybe not what she did, but she knew it would not be a bust.
What is a street performer if not this? Or a band with no cover charge, playing for tips. I see this everyday where I live. There are dozens per mile. The connection thing too is not unique. I can sit and talk with a street performer, find out what's going on in his life and pay him or not for the music he plays. What's different here?
Oh and that standing around naked thing; I do that all the time, since I always comment here in the nude, and your comments are like a pack of tattoo artists all drawing on my body simultaneously, and whoresoftheinternet always goes where he shouldn't in trusting company.
Sublime.
Does it have to take tragedy for asking to become acceptable... and only tragedy.
I'm sitting wondering what else does it take... to immaculate? asking.
I only know who she is because I'm a fan of her husband. Beyond that, I have no interest in her.
What is a street performer if not this?
I think it's exactly the same! That's her point. As an artist, she's all about making emotional connections with people, and not about making money.
It's kind of amazing that she made a lot of money. And all she did was ask!
Imagine if Obama abolished the IRS and instituted a system where the government simply asks us for money? And we give whatever we want? And the government accepts what we give, and that's what it spends?
Wouldn't that be awesome?
I actually like liberal hippie chicks.
Contract is (implicitly) force. Taxation is (implicitly) force. We can and do enforce these things. You owe us!
She, in liberal hippie chick fashion, is abandoning power and control.
It's kind of freaky to think of a government that cannot tax us, that can only ask us for money. We might worry, won't our country fall apart?
It's a liberal hippie dream, but without all the centralized control and facism. I find it provocative and very interesting.
I have a young friend here in Woodstock who is slowly building a strong following using a very similar strategy.
So... what can I say?
Nothing is ever entirely new.
The strategy this woman is using is similar in many respects to that used by Shields & Yarnell, two mimes who started their careers by working the streets at Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco back during the day when I lived in Baghdad by the Bay.
There is something in her delivery that is reminiscent, as well, of the religious, communal evangelism of the hippie movement.
The best performers are often close to stark raving mad, particularly in their youth. Why? Because the audience wants their emotions to be provoked in the most extreme manner.
Most of us are jaded old farts. Can you remember what it was like to be young and to want your emotions to be driven to the edge?
fear of the new and different. jealousy of success and happiness. no wonder Kidd Rock is embarrassed. I suppose if you wallow in your own effluvia long enough, the stench becomes normal, comfortable. Fresh air is repulsive.
If there is a charity that is working on your collective mental disorder, let me know.
Of course, my young Woodstock friend is a far superior musician to the Dredsen Dolls.
The part about sleeping with illegal aliens, well, there you go with your labels, it's undocumented visitors these days and soon it will be visitors or temporary citizens or humans in transition or something, we're talking about humanism here not legalism, come on now show a little heart will ya? This is a ♥ post.
The incident was used to illustrate trust. Perhaps this is easier for women to relate to, perhaps a little more easily than studly confident men such as ourselves.
The photographs illustrating the point, if I recall without looking, the trust involved with dropping herself into a moshpit felt the same as dropping herself onto a strangers sofa to sleep. For a woman (and a tall svelt attractive man with a bubble butt, but let's leave that aside for the moment) that must take trust.
They were unbelieveably poor and compacted in an apartment and they voluntarily became even more compacted to offer her their bed. Or their sofa or something. When she attempted to express her gratitude her host said, "your music changed my daughter's life." In their minds they were not inconveniencing themselves at all, on the contrary, they were gratified to host such a remarkably opportune guest. Imagine your favorite musician, Bob Dylan, or in your case Justin Beaver, asking if anyone has a place he could stay and you do!
@Howard,
Why don't you tell us something about yourself? How about a link to your website?
The bitch act you do is pretty easy.
What can you do besides bitch?
In economics, something is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it.
Good on her, and I wish her well.
"It's kind of freaky to think of a government that cannot tax us, that can only ask us for money."
That is how it actually works, "we" just agree to pay to much, and then agree to spend even more.
In her situation, the difference is individual choice. Each as a discrete choice independent of the group. I wonder how many people enjoyed her music and yet didn't pay anything. ~25,000 donated an average of ~$48 each. I wonder if there were more fans who paid or who didn't (maybe 47%), and are they all equal in each other's eyes and in hers?
SWPL #148: The TED video series.
Beaver cant stay if he is going to also bring his undomesticated friend.
"As an artist, she's all about making emotional connections with people, and not about making money. "
Like I said, she was getting money or the equivalent for each "connection". I don't know about other people, but I generally don't charge when I say "Good morning - How are you today, friend?"
Most artists who imagine themselves doing something superior to commerce are just unappreciative of commerce. Which is actually a beautiful thing, but not transcendental.
When companies used to put out those displays of snacks that were supposed to be purchased on the honor system, were they doing something beautiful? Maybe, but the level of the honesty was measurable and they actually had to risk something of value that was not infinitely reproducible for zero cost. Those companies did what I think she is only claiming to have done. They risked something of value, that they could actually lose. They trusted; they were vulnerable. They don't do that anymore.
I don't think she ever really offered anything without expecting a monetary return, the statue stuff, or the music. If she gave away all the proceeds to charity, then that would be something special and nice. This is just marketing in 2013, and it's not even novel.
Don't be fooled by the hippy chick presentation, with the totally predictable look, obligatory nudity, etc. All we needed was a bad guy in a three piece suit smoking a cigar, with a couple girls signifying his unacceptable sexuality.
The thing about asking is that you have to ask.
Let me give you my example.
I want to quit my job because when I was hired it was for very little but I was "promised" a raise as soon as things got better ... I put that in quotes because it was a verbal promise.
Its been a year and there is no sign of a raise and I cant continue leaning on my sister.
The idea that "the quality of the work speaks for itself" in my case is deaf mute... Chip understands it.
The hours are excellent... but the pay sucks.
So, I'm going to have to ask for what they promise or quit and get another job... either way I'm going to be asking.
Ego puncturing... sucks even thinking it.
Good evening.
rant #265 complete
until X = "complete"
save data
end of program
Lem , you are one of my favorite commenters.
" I was "promised" a raise as soon as things got better..."
So did they get better? If so, you are entitled to it, verbal or written. If they have not gotten better, then you are not, and have to decide if it's worth hanging in there anyway. I think the secret is finding work where you can make it better. If you can't, then you are just gambling by working there. I'd go for the raise. Make it happen or not. What do you have to lose? It's just a job. I've had a bunch of them, and I don't miss any of them. Opportunity is what you are looking for.
BTW, my advice is totally worthless. Except this: Be lucky.
The incident was used to illustrate trust. Perhaps this is easier for women to relate to, perhaps a little more easily than studly confident men such as ourselves.
I wish I could put into words the underlying emotion I have that eulogizing the peasants who come here is a massive arrogance. I live in CA.
The problem is not the immigrants who come here wanting a better life. It is that there is no path to move these people to high value add workers, nor to mix the immiscible nature of these two cultures. Look it up. The second generation of Hispanics does better than the first, but the third degenerates. The costs to the state are massive. As an example, the 2013 K-12 budget is $63B, and half, $31B, will go to "undocumented Hispanic visitors" and their progeny, who eschew education as a group. To put it into perspective, AG and Construction are 6% of CA's economy.
Very few Hispanics matriculate, and of these undoubtedly a large percentage are the upper class "white" Spaniard Hispanics.
Much of the state money is wasted, and is not made up by by fresh vegetables, cheaper Big Macs, and lower construction costs. The fact is the state is squeezing every place it can to support the massive influx of people, who unfortunately do not pay their way, the children do not pay their way, and the 3rd generation definitely doesn't pay its way.
For whatever fault, this group is not integrating to 21st century workers who pay their way.
So I don't appreciate the eulogizing of the peasants who come here, nor the longing for the primitavist soul seeking evidenced by this woman. It's damaging to the entire country. We don't need another huge underclass of people with perceived grievances, tearing down this great nation. If the US goes, what is going to hold the world together? Dying Europe? China? It's hard to see it.
Activist judges have set up this disaster in CA. There were no Gay people arguing about their rights. But the Hispanic guest causes a hugely regressive tax on the average Californian. Nothing is going to stop the slow motion high speed train wreck happening here.
It's a real shame that we've become so sensitized to this shit, when the numbers do not lie, and the results are bad and getting worse.
Meanwhile, if this woman really wanted to show her feelings of trust in mankind, rather than making statements about the poor peasants who come here, I recommend that she go to Chicago incognito, and hang out in the ghettos. Let's see how long she lasts there.
Lem,
The unfortunate thing about jobs is that it is expensive to move between them. Not in the $ way, which has always worked out to my benefit, but in the stress way.
I moved jobs less than a year ago, and it has been really tough. New unwritten rules, odd personalities (of which I am a member, which makes it even harder), etc.
As a person who works for corporations, in general I'm willing to stick around unless there is something that violates my sense of morality. When that happens, see you later. It becomes my integrity at that point. And what else does a man have to himself?
So, my approach has always been don't ask. Leave. And never accept a counter offer.
To me, it is a duty.
Palmer has that rare great connection to the audience. She is "charismatic" so to speak.
Palmer has that rare great connection to the audience. She is "charismatic" so to speak.
It's been very difficult for me to "ask", though for recent survival, I've been forced to do it, and the generosity of a few people (including a few commenters here) has at times made the difference between eating or going hungry for the day. I've had a particularly terrible couple of months which have left me "homeless". Though I have a place to stay temporarily, I have no idea what I will do in the future. I have a job teaching in academia, though it's on a contract basis; if enrollment doesn't materialize, classes are cancelled. There is very little job security. I love teaching, and I'm good at it. I'm highly intelligent and have a lot of skills, but my (without going into details) psychological constitution makes it very difficult to make changes, or to seek other opportunities. Being evicted after about 11 years in the same residence has been very difficult for me. Everything I own is in storage, and it's hard for me to even make the payments on the storage unit (I'm currently half a month behind), as I have no savings and have had to lay out a lot of money dealing with my sudden "homelessness". I wish I had the enterprising nature of the subject of this post.
I try to retain hope for the future. I came from nothing, and managed, through my talents alone, to get some pretty impressive credentials. I've had money in my life, and lost it. I've had great people in my life, and lost many of them to disease and death. It's strange to be 38 years old, and to feel like I'm starting from point zero once again. There's something invigorating about it, but it's also existentially terrifying.
I like this post, because I like the idea that people are finding new (and old) ways to survive and thrive.
I try to retain hope for the future. I came from nothing, and managed, through my talents alone, to get some pretty impressive credentials. I've had money in my life, and lost it. I've had great people in my life, and lost many of them to disease and death. It's strange to be 38 years old, and to feel like I'm starting from point zero once again. There's something invigorating about it, but it's also existentially terrifying.
It's even harder at 53.
Don't be a downer, chick!
Dante,
Palmer wasn't "eulogizing" anyone. She was illustrating a point. She went into the home of poor people and wondered, when they gave up their comfort for hers, if she was taking advantage of them. She discovered the next morning, when the mother took her aside and thanked her, that she wasn't taking advantage of anybody. The aid was freely given.
In the TED Talk, Palmer offers no eulogy. It's not there. You're projecting it into the episode.
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
She (Palmer) is obviously very emotionaly intelligent. Discordant with her outward appearance.I enjoyed the talk.
Now, when do we all get to write on Althouse's body? I think she should trust us.
Palladian, are you selling your source of income? Are you getting people interested in your classes. If you like what you are doing, and just need more demand then create it. Flyers, talking to people, etc. If you love the subject, then show people that, and it will be contagious. I bet there are a lot of people who would take your class if they just knew about it, and how good it is. If you do a good job, the word will spread. I know I'd take it if I lived in New York, just from reading you here.
I live just a few a blocks from an art college, and I get their offerings in the mail all the time, and think I'd like to try that, but I never do. If the person teaching the class left a note on my door telling me why I should, I would probably pull the trigger, and if I met them and they made any effort to convince me, it would be irresistible.
On asking for raises:
Even though I try to not be influenced by the squeaky wheel effect, I have to admit that I give many more raises to people who ask for them than those who don't; at least they get them earlier. Often your boss knows you deserve a raise, but just doesn't share your urgency or concern about it.
On the other hand, I went from the lowest position in my company to the highest in about 10 years, and I've never once asked for a raise or promotion. YMMV. Like I said, I'm not comfortable asking, so I had to find other ways, and maybe that's a good thing.
I wonder if Palmer made a connection between the poor Honduran mother offering her own bed to sleep in and offering a Bible.
PS It looks like the "eyebrows"are tattooed.
I think that in her own way, Ann does invite us to write on her naked body.
An interesting bit of performance art. But I think in the end she draws all the wrong conclusions.
She focuses on the "asking" side of the equation, but in reality it's the "providing a service" side of the equation that gets the ball rolling for her in all her examples. She first provides an entertainment service and only then looks for remuneration.
There's no shortage of people asking for stuff. In fact, lots of people who would say they're only "asking for a helping hand" are in fact demanding government services, paid for by involuntary, IRS gun-backed collections. It is instead only in the free capital market where an entrepreneur like Palmer can price a product and ask consumers if they agree to voluntarily pay for it. She makes a big deal of differentiating between collecting the payment before or after providing the service, but in the end that doesn't matter at all. She's using an age-old pricing model that is perhaps innovative in music, but still firmly founded in the best free-market capitalist traditions.
She discovered the next morning, when the mother took her aside and thanked her, that she wasn't taking advantage of anybody. The aid was freely given.
Yes, yes, the good deep feeling peasant people. Those who have none still have something to give. The material isn't all what it's cracked up to be, as the power of a song is more meaningful. The primitive feeling of living in a small shack and experiencing their world.
I have nothing against these people, by the way. I just don't want them destroying the country.
It sounds to me as if everyone involved in these transactions gets value for their investment.
Fresh news about Amanda Palmer:
She <3's the Boston bomber.
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