They believe that when apocalypse strikes on 21 December this year, the aliens waiting in their spacecraft inside Pic de Bugarach will save all the humans near by and beam them off to the next age....Meanwhile, the aliens inside the Pic de Bugarach are saying: Do we really need to take these nearby humans? Can't we gather some further away humans? These people seem like idiots.
Further, rumours persist that the country's late president François Mitterrand was transported by helicopter on to the peak, while the Nazis, and, later, Israel's Mossad, performed mysterious digs there. Now the nearby village is awash with New Agers, who have boosted the local economy, though their naked group climbs up to the peak have raised concerns as well as eyebrows. Among other oddities, some hikers have been spotted scaling the mountain carrying a ball with a golden ring, strung together by a single thread.
March 25, 2012
"A rapidly increasing stream of New Age believers – or esoterics, as locals call them – have descended..."
"... in their camper van-loads on the usually picturesque and tranquil Pyrenean village of Bugarach."
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76 comments:
Now the nearby village is awash with New Agers, who have boosted the local economy, though their naked group climbs up to the peak have raised concerns as well as eyebrows.
Hmmm. If they are hippie-ish New Agers, it is possible that a few of the women might actually be of the full-flavor variety. Bon appetit!
If it was happening in this country, you can bet there'd be an enterprising type renting binoculars every time there's a "naked group climb up to the peak".
Peter said...
Hmmm. If they are hippie-ish New Agers, it is possible that a few of the women might actually be of the full-flavor variety. Bon appetit!
They're French, so it's a sure thing. They're also unwashed.
PS Himmler was looking for evidence of ancient Aryan races. At least he was going on material the true believers hadn't disavowed.
It's not certain they're true believers. They might just be campers.
You need an offshoot of a traditional church to get a disappointment climax.
Jesus, you people are late to the party. I'm catching this story everywhere, now, like it's something that couldn't have been stopped if you gave a damn sooner - or gave a damn about NewAge at all.
No, let's not infuse western society with any logic and reason - vote in Romney - that'll make people stop doing dumb shit for the sake of doing dumb shit. You're "open-minded," for everyone, right?
No - you're not encouraging this type of nonsense by rewarding people for nonsense - you're doing what's best for the country, and the world, everyday.
Listen, if you morons think you're ANY different than these morons, then you're stupider than even I give you credit for.
And you're getting all I got right now,...
I suspect aliens wouldn't be able to tell the difference. After all, can you tell how intelligent the last chicken you ate was?
In The Garden of The Beasts. I'm reading this great book about our Ambassador to Germany during the rise of Hitler.
This post was Crack bait!!
"Jesus, you people are late to the party. I'm catching this story everywhere, now, like it's something that couldn't have been stopped if you gave a damn sooner - or gave a damn about NewAge at all. "
There's little reason to give my limited supply of damns to this story. It's just another dumb thing people are doing.
You're all worked up about people not paying enough attention to you as you pay so much attention to this corner of human frailty, but most people don't think it's worth obsessing over.
Why am I not posting continually about Iran and nuclear weapons or violence in Africa or the world economic crisis? There are many important subjects, and the idea that you got someplace early and are staying there waiting for others to arrive... well, it seems like one of these weird ideas people have.
Which returns us to the original problem!
Hey, Crack. Fuck you, too.
Ann Althouse,
Really? Then why post it to begin with?
You're all worked up about people not paying enough attention to you as you pay so much attention to this corner of human frailty, but most people don't think it's worth obsessing over.
That's because you're not bright enough to understand the phrase "canary in the coalmine." I said Rush was wrong to apologize - an idea you nor anyone else got, opting instead to go on this stupid feminist PC witch hunt - which, now, everyone agrees goes against common sense.
I called Gabriele Giffords shooter a NewAge assassin long before the rest of you ever got the memo - and you still insist he's just crazy and makes no sense to this day.
You, on the other hand, make the environment where this lunacy flourishes - because you don't challenge it and nip it in the bud before bad things happen. "Romney's religion doesn't matter" - really? Then why does it for these guys?
You're all worked up about people not paying enough attention to you as you pay so much attention to this corner of human frailty, but most people don't think it's worth obsessing over.
Not important? A woman got shot. The conservative's have weakened themselves. And those are just two examples of how you've wasted everyone's time with your concerns and distracted them from seeing what's really important.
You did a post on Mark Styne, but I ask you, what chance does a dying society have when even it's public radio station - one we pay for - can't tell the difference between water and medicine?
Oh, you're quick to lash at me, but that's just a cover for your ineffectualness.
You hippies have been clowning yourselves for decades now - and yeah, before it gets any worse, it's about time you let someone else - anyone else - take the floor,...
seems to me this type of people made PT Barnum a rich man, and Jim Jones' followers corpses.
**There's little reason to give my limited supply of damns to this story.**
I am SO gonna rip off that line and use it in real life! That is awesome.
Tyrone Slothrop,
Hey, Crack. Fuck you, too.
I'm picturing you jumping off a cliff with the rest of them as you say that,..
"Really? Then why post it to begin with?"
I post about what interests me. I'm interested in hippies, New Age nonsense, human stupidity, religion, public nudity... all sorts of things here.
"I said Rush was wrong to apologize - an idea you nor anyone else got..."
Crack, seriously, I think you would be more successful if you gave other people more credit. This image of you as the ONLY person who sees certain things... it's irritating. It's much harder to engage with you when your theme is FIRST! MOST!
Do you want to talk *with* people or do you mainly want to scream: Nobody's listening to me! I said it first!
seem?
New Agism isn't new. Every period in history has its weak-minded, credulous sheep who want to believe in an easy path to redemption. They want to believe that they have the goods when no one else does. Just like Crack, who wants to believe that New Agism is the chief, if not only, problem facing western civilization, and he is the Jeremiah warning of its coming. (Romney's responsible for this?) Those hippies climbing Bugarach are taking themselves out of the modern equation. They are irrelevant, and that is the worst you can say about them.
Ann Althouse,
I post about what interests me. I'm interested in hippies, New Age nonsense, human stupidity, religion, public nudity... all sorts of things here.
But why didn't it interest you a year or more ago? It was a story then.
And why does this NewAge-inspired lunacy matter but Romney's religion - and the possibility of what lunacy it'll inspire - matter? You haven't done one - not one - post on it, and not only is it so bizarre it makes Scientology look like kindergarden for nutjobs but he's supposed to be the president. Your support for him wouldn't have anything to do with THAT omission, would it, Miss I'm So Curious?
You can't fool me, Ann. The rest of these fools, usually, but not me. You're playing a game - with even yourself - and calling delusion is my specialty. You don't think NewAge is important because it hits too close to home. Your EVERY MEAL is a NewAge awakening. Your feminism payed for your bullshit lifestyle but it's a lie as surely as Al Sharpton's. Deal with that. You're an indigo Child. Don't try to blame me:
I'm the only friend you've got.
"Meanwhile, the aliens inside the Pic de Bugarach are saying: Do we really need to take these nearby humans? Can't we gather some further away humans? These people seem like idiots."
Commander Zorg: That blogress Althouse makes a good point--these Humans who have gathered do seem a little flaky.
Exectutive Officer Beetlegom: This is true Zorg, but on the other hand, they are the only Humans that have somehow detected our presence here.
Ann Althouse said...
"I said Rush was wrong to apologize - an idea you nor anyone else got..."
Crack, seriously, I think you would be more successful if you gave other people more credit.
Credit for what? ideas you don't have as you talk, talk, talk? Taking the wrong positions? Damaging us? Which one of those do you want a star for? And why deny me mine, teacher?
This image of you as the ONLY person who sees certain things... it's irritating. It's much harder to engage with you when your theme is FIRST! MOST!
You're only irritated because it trumps you. I don't see you complaining when Reynolds gives you a link - but for what? What grand idea of yours has he linked to? What real insight have you delivered? my subject matter - which you claim is unimportant - could've saved lives! What does yours do? encourages people to argue with Garage.
Congratulations.
Do you want to talk *with* people or do you mainly want to scream: Nobody's listening to me! I said it first!
When the results are so obvious - people being killed vs. arguing with morons about the value of nothing - you figure it out. I've been talking *with* you people for years now but what's the point? You're still going to vote for the the guy who doesn't "believe" in anthropology, claiming he's the best man for the job. You're a professor - what's the matter with you?
I'd rather go down as dumb nigger who knew something than a bunch of educated lemmings any day.
But believing that Magic Jesus is going to show up and take all His believers to a place in the sky, now that's not only rational but mainstream Republican thought.
Joe5348
Joseph the whole Magical Jesus thing is still by leaps and bounds more sane the delusions of the left, besides have you ever heard of Pascal's wager?
The nuts having bought a one way ticket are going to kill themselves when they realize just how expensive the return ticket will cost on the day after.
"Meanwhile, the aliens inside the Pic de Bugarach are saying: Do we really need to take these nearby humans? Can't we gather some further away humans? These people seem like idiots."
"Besides, they're going to be too lean, stringy, and tasteless."
Crack is fervent in his beliefs. I think the sort of women who are attracted to New Age crap could easily be attracted to him. People seek certainty with more avidity than they seek truth. Crack has certainty. So there's the rub. He hates gullible women and is doomed to attract them.
I can't get too worked-up by people who stay in the religion they were born into.
I do question the judgement of people who join religions that have nutty belief systems, because it looks a lot like they are embracing that very nuttiness.
Giving up a faith which encourages lots of good things like stable families, hard-work and thrift because of the shady founding principles of the church makes about as much sense as refusing to use money because you find "In God We Trust" to be unacceptable.
There is a major flaw in Pascal's wager. Specifically, it is that there are an infinite number of possibilities for the attributes of God. That is, it is possible that God is a cynic and punishes those that believe in him. It is possible that God is evil and punishes those that believe in him. It is possible that any of the extant religions are correct and nonbelievers in any of those religions are doomed. Pick your poison.
Joe5348
joseph,
But believing that Magic Jesus is going to show up and take all His believers to a place in the sky, now that's not only rational but mainstream Republican thought.
I agree, but at least it's got some foundation as the basis for our ethical framework - Romney's religion was invented in the 1800s when a convicted con man who died running from the law just made some shit up! And it shows in all the child abuse, fraud, and illogical thinking that goes on in Utah. Did you know it's the only state in the union that gives classes on how not to be tricked by con men? Why? Because it's a haven for them, that's why. And why don't you know about those classes? The entire supplement industry - brought to us by that great Mormon, Orrin Hatch - is organized crime. And if you don't think it's not chock full of nuts, look at the hearing that let the whole thing go. read the whole thing - it'll make your head spin. not only because it's crazy, but to understand that's the level of "thinking" that makes it now.
But Ann finds that kind of thing unimportant as we drive ourselves to the poorhouse with oprah "The Secret" Winfrey's chosen candidate who Ann voted for making a 'rational" decision..
"mainstream Republican thought"
Christianity == the Republican party? Learn something new every day, thanks.
I always thought it was mainstream Democratic Party thought as well.
How is this possible? Ten bucks says 90% of these people are just out for a lark. The other 10% are asylum escapees.
PS If the rapture were here, it would be worth it to get away from this POS 30 years out of date, designed by government committee captcha system
I just re-read my last answer and I still can't understand how Ann would decide to chastise me - for being right. That's how crazy NewAge thought is. People with the correct answers are "irritating" and get a lecture, but those with wrong answers deserve "credit" from them, presumably because they hold the keys to the kingdom for backing corrosive shit like feminism and being on an anti-aging search like Reynolds. Hey - good luck with never growing old, buddy!
Those people in France didn't escape some insane asylum - there is no escape with these people in charge.
Go Romney! Go Obama! Go Ann! Go Glenn!
Great fucking job, Everybody!
You're everything slavery ended for,...
Joseph while your parade of horribles is certainly possibly it is equally possible that there is a parade of the wonderful. The atheists if they are right win nothing. If wrong they have an equally good chance of finding themselves in the parade of wonders. Pascal's wager is still the better bet.
Cubanbob,
I don't think you understand my point. It is possible that Atheists are rewarded by a cunning God for their disbelief.
Joe5348
Crack Emcee,
Another guy's religion is irrelevant to me. Pray to your left foot for all I care. However, when a person believes something that is demonstrably untrue, for example, either of the creation stories in the bible or that Native Americans are descended from the lost ten tribes, both of which are scientifically proven to be false, that suggests a core of intellectual dishonesty. Similarly, believing that the bible requires the death penalty for murder, an eye for an eye, when that is clearly not what is meant by the phrase (ask any Rabbinic scholar) suggests a lack of intellectual curiosity. Lack of intellectual honesty or curiosity should be a disqualifying trait for any candidate for high office.
Joe5348
Is it me, or is Crack becoming more trollish in his old age?
Apparently it's not enough anymore to just be a shameless link-whore. Now he has to be a shameless link-whore trying to catch more flies with vinegar.
"To Serve Man".
Crack - you're just upset that you're not teacher's pet.
Oh look! Crack turned a cult thread into another opportunity to bash Romney's faith.
Is it me, or is Crack becoming more trollish in his old age?
No. Crack was the one trolled. By Althouse. Soon as I saw the post title, I thought "Crack Bait".
which are scientifically proven to be false,
Meh. That doesn't mean what it used to mean.
joseph said...
Crack Emcee,
Another guy's religion is irrelevant to me. Pray to your left foot for all I care. However, when a person believes something that is demonstrably untrue, for example socialism.....
Speaking of which the leftist beliefs are daily being proven wrong in total yet you disparage the religious believer whose core believes have never been disproven....
joseph said...
Cubanbob,
I don't think you understand my point. It is possible that Atheists are rewarded by a cunning God for their disbelief.
Joe5348
3/25/12 12:44 PM
And equally likely to be damned. Like I said before the atheist gains nothing by being right and has just as good a chance as being damned or blessed if wrong. So whats you point? Heads I gain everything if wrong and lose nothing if I am right? You are making my point.
Alex said...
Crack - you're just upset that you're not teacher's pet.
Actually, he is teacher's pet for some unfathomable reason.
wv: retentia peden-- my new motto, meaning "hold on to your feet"
"Meanwhile, the aliens inside the Pic de Bugarach are saying: Do we really need to take these nearby humans? Can't we gather some further away humans? These people seem like idiots. " - Althouse
Isn't that an odd quirk of humanity? The humans closest to us always seem like idiots. It's the ones further away that seem more sophisticated.
I suppose that is why everyone outside of France thinks the French are quite the thing. While those actually in France can't stand them.
joseph,
Crack Emcee,
Another guy's religion is irrelevant to me. Pray to your left foot for all I care. However, when a person believes something that is demonstrably untrue, for example, either of the creation stories in the bible or that Native Americans are descended from the lost ten tribes, both of which are scientifically proven to be false, that suggests a core of intellectual dishonesty. Similarly, believing that the bible requires the death penalty for murder, an eye for an eye, when that is clearly not what is meant by the phrase (ask any Rabbinic scholar) suggests a lack of intellectual curiosity. Lack of intellectual honesty or curiosity should be a disqualifying trait for any candidate for high office.
Except on the issue of irrelevance (which your answer seems to contradict) we agree 100%. But these are the choices we're being railroaded into, so I'll take the simpleton over the liar any day.
I did a post a few days ago that started with the depressing observation that an Althouse commenter said Santorum’s honesty made him dislike him, but Romney’s lies made him normal. Now, today, the lady herself steps up to say people who can't see the obvious deserve "credit" and someone other than herself being right is "irritating" - which I gather is an emotion her blog's smug photo also isn't supposed to inspire, but what can you do?
My point is, it's all upside-down around here. Liars are touted as the best thing since sliced bread, and honest people with answers to our problems are lectured and punished, while the NewAge teachers hand out trophies to everyone but the kid who makes touchdowns because, frankly, he bothers her for doing so and expecting some reward for the effort. I mean, they ARE a bunch of professors, for Christ's sake.
tim maguire,
Is it me, or is Crack becoming more trollish in his old age? Apparently it's not enough anymore to just be a shameless link-whore. Now he has to be a shameless link-whore trying to catch more flies with vinegar.
And this is really the point. The expectation of an emotion and behavior that bears no relationship to the reality of the situation. Liars are good. Honest people are bad. People who are wrong deserve credit, while people who are right get lectures, and I'm supposed to be nice about it as well. That all makes perfect sense.
Have you ever considered that if you guys changed, other things might - like my mood? That if you discovered a new-found respect for honesty, and punished liars, the world might be a better place? If someone like Ann was right in her pronouncements - or even admitted when she was wrong - and wasn't so quick to punish when someone else is right, and actually decided to reward that, we might see some semblance of justice - and actual success - in this country? (Wow - a black guy finding success amongst whites by doing the right thing, what a concept! No, no - what am I saying? Better to put on a hoodie and declare myself Trayvon, right? Might as well, because going the other way sure doesn't win me anything but a lecture from the school marm,...)
Seriously, you guys are insane and you don't know it. But the best part is, YOU want to be rewarded for it! You want to be treated nicely, while you drive us to the poor house and reward bullshit artists. Actually lifting someone OUT of the poorhouse - for doing the right thing and seeing things clearly - pales in comparison to making sure Ann's latest nuts-and-berries foray to one expensive restaurant after another is a pleasant one. That's where her, and your, priorities lie. And that's why we're going broke. And that's why nothing works anymore.
It's all about YOU.
ed,
Isn't that an odd quirk of humanity? The humans closest to us always seem like idiots. It's the ones further away that seem more sophisticated.
Not really. I mean, Wisconsin is faaaar away from me and I am NOT impressed.
I suppose that is why everyone outside of France thinks the French are quite the thing. While those actually in France can't stand them.
Ha! Did you see that even Gérard Depardieu said he can't? But Ann loves them.
Like I said, completely upside-down,...
You know, people get hysterical about the Super Bowl, spending, I don't know, hundreds of millions of dollars, with millions watching on TV, as if it's the biggest thing in the entire world, etc. For all the brouhaha you'd thing it was a real life changing event. So what if a bunch of people want to climb up a mountain naked and hope for some ascension? I don't see much difference.
This thread really cracked me up!
The whole Mayan Calendar thing amuses me to no end. To think this is valid ....
1. You have to think the Mayan bureaucrats were more efficient than the modern ones. In the modern age someone somewhere would have gone "oh crap. we put out the wrong size stone in the RFQ and now the damn thing is 17 months short... well if we fudge the numbers it'll work out all right".
2. You're depending on the Ancient Wisdom of a group of people who too busy being Ancient and Wise to invent toilet paper.
My personal rule: if the people with Ancient Wisdom hadn't invented toilet paper then I'd have to say that whole Ancient Wisdom thing is a bit overrated. What do you do every single day? I'm sure it's not calculating the orbit of Venus.
3. You're depending on a bunch of people too busy slaughtering each other to notice that they were depleting their soil. Which is really easy to notice because at some point the declining production meets the increasing population into a Malthusian Cliff ... and you're doing a Wile E. Coyote.
And while we're at it the Mayans built their cities on farmland. Not very bright. And the bigger their populations got, the bigger their cities. And the less farmland. Ancient? Yes. Wise? Not so much.
4. It's in France. Really. France. What are the odds on this? Seriously. Is this some sort of goof on the Coneheads?
Are they really from France?
5. Mayan writing is a series of pictographs. If space aliens are involved are pictographs really the best way to represent data? Sure a picture is worth a thousand words. Unless you have no idea what the picture is supposed to represent in which case it's now post-Modern art and you get to charge a gazillion dollars for it.
But if there's a link why would space aliens teach Mayans to write in pictographs?
Just imagine trying to repair a starship using a repair manual based on Mayan pictographs.
"Bob what the @&#^ is this snake-head-turned-left-with-feather mean?"
"Oh that. That's the locknar-fribbix adapter."
ed,
The whole Mayan Calendar thing amuses me to no end. To think this is valid ....
And yet that is common enough to be "normal" thinking today - with them looking at "normal" thinking back then - and here we are, thousands of years later, with a professor who is wrong a LOT but passes herself off (and is practically worshiped) as "normal," declaring, "this image of you as the ONLY person who sees certain things... it's irritating."
Really, can there be any doubt how the whole human sacrifice thing got started? Or that - once things fall apart - we're headed back there again?
Ann and Glenn will demand it for anyone who says they're right - and I'll be at the head of the line,...
Hey, Ann - LOOK!!!
Considering all the "healthy" food you and Meade eat, if he wasn't already dead, you could tell him how "irritating" he was,...
This story has creepy purple-shroud-Nike-wearing overtones.
Crack, will Mitt Romney force you to wear undergarments, marry multiple wives or tithe ten percent? Will he posthumously baptize the ancestors of all Americans? Will all high school grads be forced to go on missions for two years? No? Then for Pete's sake what are you worried about? You're like the Dixiecrats railing about Kennedy turning over the US government to the Pope, and by that I mean, you're the one who's insane. Literally. You're so full of hate for your fellow man for the real and imagined wrongs that you've suffered that you will not permit anyone to take a different path than the Crack Emcee Certified Path. Well I've got news for you, pal. It takes all kinds to make a world, even hateful misanthropic link whores, and if everyone believed as you believe this world would be an absolutely miserable place. The hippies on Bugarach are entertaining to some, and Althouse's post no more implies approbation of their harmless lunacy than that you are a member of the Rockettes. Get off your high horse. take a pill or something. You're such a bummer.
Tyrone Slothrop,
Crack, will Mitt Romney force you to wear undergarments, marry multiple wives or tithe ten percent? Will he posthumously baptize the ancestors of all Americans? Will all high school grads be forced to go on missions for two years? No? Then for Pete's sake what are you worried about?
Two things:
1) I've already been over this on another thread and can't be bothered to do it again.
2) If you don't understand the Mormon "church," at least as well as I do, then why would you give them power? It's a fact that most Americans have NO IDEA what it means to be a Mormon or how they operate. The vast majority of people on this blog have said their only experience is through meeting a few - nothing more - and I've proven the ones who have defended them to be factual liars, so what does that tell you? Oh yeah, I forgot:
On this blog, liars are "normal," and honest people who know something are unlikable, "irritating," and unworthy of credit.
Really, Ty, why bother? When you guys think liars are "normal," and honest people who know something are unlikable, "irritating," and unworthy of credit, what's the point of telling you anything? What's it going to get me but another lecture from Stevie Nicks on how I ought to dumb it down, or praise YOU for not knowing anything?
What am I afraid of? You tell me. If you can't, Ann will give you a nickel.
Apparently, that's how college "works"....
~N.,
This story has creepy purple-shroud-Nike-wearing overtones.
Yeah, and they've been gathering there for almost two years now. And did you know today is the 15th Anniversary of Heaven's Gate? Boy, would Ann have had a laugh at THEM! "Look at these guys, Meade - wow, they're weird, take a picture - now let's get to Whole Foods before they close."
Never mind. It's unimportant. Ann says so. It's just "what people do." Watch them as she does, for amusement. And if they all kill themselves, get over it at a fancy restaurant that decorates your plate because there's nothing on it - a homeopathic meal!
This NewAge stuff, it means nothing at all.
Aaaaall the smart folks say so,...
Am I wrong in thinking that if Crack could exploit the situation by, I don't know, having unprotected anal sex with New Age hippie chicks, he could totally turn this thing around and make it work for him?
I mean, consensually butt-f^cking chicks he has complete contempt for might be the best way for him to exercise his anxieties with these dolts.
There is a major flaw in Pascal's wager. . . . That is, it is possible that God is a cynic and punishes those that believe in him. It is possible that God is evil and punishes those that believe in him.
Sure, if God is Allah. That is a perfectly good Islamic understanding of God, which is that Allah is so all-powerful that he even has the power to contradict himself.
But Christianity posits that God is Truth ("I am"). He is Creative Reason (Logos).
As a matter of reason, a thing cannot be both what it is and what it is not. God cannot be both God and Not-God. He cannot be contrary to Himself. As such, God is Truth cannot be or act in a manner contrary to truth. And Truth being "good," God is by definition all-good, He cannot, cannot, cannot be not-good, He cannot be or do evil. He cannot and does not lie and mislead people into believing and then "punishing" them for that very belief. To do that would be to be contrary to Himself, which is a logical impossibility.
So where does evil come from if not God? Evil (which is the privation of truth and good) has its origin in the free choice of the will of man. Humans choose to do evil, which is the distortion and turning away from truth and good. Consequently, by so choosing to separate yourself from truth and good, it is not God who punishes for doing evil, you punish yourself.
As for the Mayans --
Will the world end this year, as they said?
Probably not. But maybe. The world most definitely will end for thousands of people on December 21, 2012.
It will also end for thousands of people today.
The point that any of us should take from the whole Mayan thing is that all things end, none of us is going to live forever. If tomorrow were to be your last day on this earth, what will you do about it to make this day a good day?
Don't wait until tomorrow to be a better person, don't wait until tomorrow to reconcile with others. Tomorrow may never come. If we are (mostly) all still here on December 22, that is no guarantee that you will live to see December 23. Seize the day.
"an Althouse commenter said Santorum’s honesty made him dislike him, but Romney’s lies made him normal."
Oh crap, I think that was me, and I left right after the comment, and so didn't get to enjoy my spanking. I bet it was good.
My point was that I believe that nearly everyone lies to themselves and others about their religion, because it would be hard to live a normal life it they didn't. I believe Romney is like this. BUT, my point was he was lying to himself and his church - not to us. He has a religion, but he's not a fanatic that will impose it on others, just like most of us, including atheists. I beleive that this is him choosing our values over his church's, not the other way around.
Now these nuts on the mountain, they are honest. They are acting on their beliefs openly and actively. And I would never vote for one to represent me, except on the alien ship.
If Obama came out and told me he was a socialist and therefore intended to continue on his current policies, and other collectivist ideas, that wouldn't make me suddenly vote for his new honest self either.
Bender said...
As for the Mayans --
Will the world end this year, as they said?
Sir Isaac Newton, arguably the most intelligent human who ever lived, reckoned the world would not end until 2060 at the earliest. Of course, he probably used the calculus, which he had invented, and the Mayans had no access to.
@Crack Emcee
_I_ don't think the New Age crowd is harmless. Sad, at best, perhaps, but not harmless.
I bet that same crowd gathering for the Mayan Apocolypse, or whatever is supposed to happen, probably laughed their butts off at that nutty Christian guy who keeps claiming he's figured out the date for the beginning of the End Times.
bagoh20,
Oh crap, I think that was me, and I left right after the comment, and so didn't get to enjoy my spanking. I bet it was good.
I did not spank you. I said you made me depressed. (Like the new photo BTW)
My point was that I believe that nearly everyone lies to themselves and others about their religion, because it would be hard to live a normal life it they didn't. I believe Romney is like this. BUT, my point was he was lying to himself and his church - not to us. He has a religion, but he's not a fanatic that will impose it on others, just like most of us, including atheists. I beleive that this is him choosing our values over his church's, not the other way around.
Your definition of fanatic differs from mine. The man passionately declared that when Jesus returns he would rule from Jerusalem and Missouri. Now, I don't know about you, but that sounds like Pat Robertson material to me - is Pat Robertson your idea of a fanatic? How about presidential material? Add in all the other loopy ideas of Mormonism which, seriously, go waaaay past Scientology-type nonsense and I say we have a major deception on the American people being carried out here. Remember:
Though most of you want to limit this discussion to what I do or silly claims of bigotry, my main thrust has stayed the same - vet the man - because that's our responsibility as citizens.
I know some of you have said I want that so he'll admit he's in a cult, but that's not my intention at all and despise the suggestion. What I don't want to see - and it's what I do see - is another coronation a la Obama. We have a right to deserve better in this country - this is not fucking Venezuela. If Romney gets grilled and he passes, great, but I'm going to keep demanding he does until that happens.
Lastly, to those of you who know me by now, I think it's shameful, and shameless, for you to portray me as MSNBC (trying to appear unbiased while pushing an agenda) when you know I'm more FOX News (my biases are up-front but I play it fair and balanced). It's not my fault Mormonism is a secretive cult, or that it's beliefs are weirder than Madonna's underwear drawer, or that Mitt Romney has decided to bury his core to sell you a superficial picture of himself. I think it's your fault that, in order to portray yourselves as "open-minded" ("I don't care about his religion") you've also decided to brush aside everything you do know about him that's troubling - like flip-flopping to the point where he can audition as the fish in Faith No More's "Epic" video - just to do his bidding and let him slide. He doesn't deserve that. He's a politician like any other. And - as "irritating" as Ann finds it - I pride myself on being right:
I see absolutely no reason for pride in being otherwise,....
~N.,
_I_ don't think the New Age crowd is harmless. Sad, at best, perhaps, but not harmless.
I wish I could see them that way again, but they kill too many people for that now. And the way people regard this stuff is too troubling as well. I was reading this article in Cracked today, and their suggestion for "Indigo Children" is to get them medicated, and all I thought was, they're telling people to drug the kids who are then sent back home with the NewAge parent - who is the one who needs help! It's simply incredible how much damage that advice causes. And how little anyone understands about these issues.
I bet that same crowd gathering for the Mayan Apocolypse, or whatever is supposed to happen, probably laughed their butts off at that nutty Christian guy who keeps claiming he's figured out the date for the beginning of the End Times.
Oh yeah. They were having a grand time with that one. Christians are the Pagan's enemies and the "spiritual battle" Christians are going on about is being perpetrated by what we see as NewAgers - wiping out the word "Christmas," etc. From the outside, it all looks like harmless silliness, but to the participants, it's serious business that's been going on for thousands of years. That's an aspect few focus on - how THEY see it - like watching Muslims and Christians viewing their actions through the prism of The Crusades.
As an atheist, it's a fascinating topic to be involved in, on the level that I am. Before I got into it all, I didn't care - as many of you don't - and really had no idea what was happening around us.
But they know,...
This post was Crack bait!!
Ha, that was my first thought.
You're all worked up about people not paying enough attention to you as you pay so much attention to this corner of human frailty, but most people don't think it's worth obsessing over.
Pure pwnage. I've never seen a blog commenter so obsessed with his own brilliance and blog hits. It's fucking embarrassing. Good grief, Crack, can't you get your own web traffic without humping Althouse's leg all day long?
Blue@9,
Pure pwnage. I've never seen a blog commenter so obsessed with his own brilliance and blog hits. It's fucking embarrassing. Good grief, Crack, can't you get your own web traffic without humping Althouse's leg all day long?
Oh yeah, and then you'd accuse me of saying shit without supporting evidence.
I can't win with you people,...
Oh yeah, and then you'd accuse me of saying shit without supporting evidence.
I can't win with you people,...
Who are you calling "you people"?
;p
Listen, the thing is that most of us don't find NewAgers to be an existential threat. This shit is just mildly interesting to Althouse, like the My Little Pony link. In the old days the paper would have a "News of the Weird" column and that's where this shit would go. Sometimes I find her links interesting too, sometimes I don't.
I don't care that you find these people to be a threat on par with the commies, but can you tone it down some? This is some seriously weak shit: "You're only irritated because it trumps you." Jesus, Crack, do you think anybody here actually cares that much about you? And this whole thing about linking your blog at every opportunity? Just desperate as fuck.
The distinction I do not get, Crack, is between people who thing Jesus will return to rule from Missouri and those who believe that Jesus came to earth as an emissary from God, died for our sins and was resurrected. Why are any Christians reliable? Why is someone like Obama (who I believe is pretending to be a Christian and not because he is a secret Muslim) not even worse.
Put differently, why is New Age bullshit any more dangerous than all the other bullshit?
I am usually on time for parties but rarely enjoy them. Maybe that explains it.
Does this have anything to do with Cathars?
wow. i never really understood the meaning of the expression 'crack is whack' until today. isn't believing that you are an all-wise, all-seeing entity around whom the universe full of lesser beings revolves kinda 'new-agey'?? we should ALL change so that this cracked fellow can be put in "a better mood"?! yikes. i don't think even jesus' dad asked for as much.
oh crap...and now here i am being sucked into feeding this loon's ego too..ugh..i feel dirty.
Crack is one of the good guys.
I've gotten a bee in my bonnet over similar issues. Piling on won't help. It only made me want to dig in deeper.
Just saying, cultism is a sore spot with him. No need to keep poking it. Be merciful.
@Fen
Anybody who comes here and issues blanket insults ("Listen, if you morons think you're ANY different than these morons, then you're stupider than even I give you credit for.") is an asshole. I don't give a flying fuck about Crack's "sore spots". Anyway, this particular asshole only knows one issue, so how is it possible to avoid poking him on it? If you insist on putting your thumb in the way, the hammer will inevitably fall on it.
David,
Why is New Age bullshit any more dangerous than all the other bullshit?
You know, in all the years I've been here, I think you're the first to ask. You're brilliant.
The reasons start with the concept of duality. Christians believe in good and evil. You do good, try to destroy or avoid evil. Simple. NewAgers say there's both in us, moving around like smoke in the air. Duality is why we get movies from Hollywood that ask us to question right and wrong.
Now, one major difference between the average Joe and the believer is Joe doesn't exist on a metaphysical plane. Joe goes to Starbucks, picks up his coffee, goes home. The believer negotiates symbols that make the walls in graffitied ghettos look plain. Most people only see organized religion's - Christian crosses, Star of Davids, etc. - but there's competing ones, unread and unnoticed, speaking, prompting, directing, like in They Live. The Starbucks logo, featuring a Siren, is one. The Peace symbol (or "crooked cross," mocking Christianity) is another.
This is the world of unorganized religion, and the symbols are everywhere - billboards, songs, television - attempting to subvert the larger society. If you're a Numerologist, oh man, the world is *talking*to*you* The rest don't know what's said (or recognize a few) we don't care, and because we don't understand the significance, feel no danger. The believer feels special.
They're not physical ("spirits in the material world") they are "free spirits," breaking taboos. Feelings (from symbols and rituals) are better than science, reason and logic. Ethics are thrown out (duality). The list goes on.
And generally it's all good - who's afraid of hippie chicks? But they become untethered, paying more attention to the symbols than their educations. You can find many of the results here. When you do, notice they give no background on how anyone got there, just the results.
But these symbols are delivering the ideas we've become superficially familiar with - men are evil, women are Goddesses, Gaia, etc. - all destructive to the modern world, resulting in arguments, divorce, madness and death.
Personally, I wouldn't mind NewAge if it was upfront, but - like Mormonism and Scientology or The Landmark Forum and countless other cults - they play with us on the DL, worming their way into society and our personal lives without anyone the wiser, except believers. Most of us are barely aware, even when we hear of the "spiritual battle" Christians are always harping on. And we laugh at them.
But it's real, and has been for thousands of years, this "ancient teaching," and, since the results are so devastatingly awful for the unsuspecting, it's something I simply cannot abide.
"I did not spank you. I said you made me depressed. (Like the new photo BTW)"
Now that depresses me. My new photo was as close as I could get to matching yours. I even spent 2 days naked on a mountain top trying to get a tan to match it. I know it's not quite there, but pretty damned close. I don't do the shades, cause my eyes are f-ing gorgeous.
Don't be depressed by me. I think you would find me pretty much what you hope more people would be. I have been anti-new age crap my whole life. I have spent many hours trying to get people to see how little sense it makes. I agree with nearly everything you stand for. I just don't feel a passion to fight it at your level. That's why I support your effort and hope you succeed beyond your wildest hope.
A lot of us think there is one force that's the root cause of all the shit around us. You see New Age as it. I see the legal profession at the immediate level, and leftist ideology worldwide, and someone else might see nationalism, feminism or patriarchy. When we see something messed up, we all attribute it to our own particular whipping horse. I got no problem with you having yours. But, like the old saying: "To a hammer everything looks like a nail."
Romney doesn't worry me because of his religion. I see a history of a man that does not take it as seriously as he wants his fellow Mormons to believe. I am concerned about his softness and the possibility of him flip flopping more.
I'm all for vetting him and Mormonism all you want, and I wish it wasn't off limits. We may see the press get into it yet, especially if Obama starts losing bad, but I don't think they will vet Obama's past in an equal fashion.
I definitely prefer Romney to Obama, and that's the only choice we're gonna get. And while Santorum's religion is less weird and scary, he is more likely to impose it, and that's what matters to me. Not the possibility, but the reality. Even Mormons know their stuff is tough to swallow, that's why they are so secretive. It would get destroyed by the left if a Republican tried to push it.
Has New Age had a detrimental effect?
As noted, while there really is not a precise definition of New Age, it is generally characterized by a touchy-feely, "spiritual not religious," relativism.
That also is consistent with the current state of the legal profession and much leftist ideology.
"At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life." This quote from Casey505 U.S. 833 (1992), is quite at home in the New Age. It is also the height of complete bullshit. Having been thought to have been authored by Anthony Kennedy, it does not give much comfort in wondering what his whim will be in the ObamaCare cases.
Relativism has very much had a corrosive effect on society, whether it is factual relativism, scientific relativism, or moral relativism. It has led to what has been famously, and rightly, called a "dictatorship of relativism."
Is Romney a New Ager? No. But he is a squish. He has no real core grounded in reason, rather than expediency, no desire for critical thinking on fundamental things. Is that due to his being Mormon or something else? Regardless of the cause, it is not something to be desired in a president, especially in these perilous times.
By the way, here's what that scary Santorum's religion has to say about this particular matter. But note that Santorum's religion only proposes, it does not impose --
We must not remain children in faith, in the condition of minors. And what does it mean to be children in faith? St Paul answers: it means being "tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine" (Eph 4: 14). This description is very timely!
How many winds of doctrine have we known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of the thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves - flung from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. Every day new sects spring up, and what St Paul says about human deception and the trickery that strives to entice people into error (cf. Eph 4: 14) comes true.
Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be "tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine", seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one's own ego and desires.
We, however, have a different goal: the Son of God, the true man. He is the measure of true humanism. An "adult" faith is not a faith that follows the trends of fashion and the latest novelty; a mature adult faith is deeply rooted in friendship with Christ. It is this friendship that opens us up to all that is good and gives us a criterion by which to distinguish the true from the false, and deceit from truth. . . .
We must develop this adult faith; we must guide the flock of Christ to this faith. And it is this faith - only faith - that creates unity and is fulfilled in love.
On this theme, St Paul offers us as a fundamental formula for Christian existence some beautiful words, in contrast to the continual vicissitudes of those who, like children, are tossed about by the waves: make truth in love. Truth and love coincide in Christ. To the extent that we draw close to Christ, in our own lives too, truth and love are blended. . . .
All people desire to leave a lasting mark. But what endures? Money does not. Even buildings do not, nor books. After a certain time, longer or shorter, all these things disappear. The only thing that lasts for ever is the human soul, the human person created by God for eternity.
The fruit that endures is therefore all that we have sown in human souls: love, knowledge, a gesture capable of touching hearts, words that open the soul to joy in the Lord. So let us go and pray to the Lord to help us bear fruit that endures. Only in this way will the earth be changed from a valley of tears to a garden of God.
--Homily of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Conclave for the Election of a new Pope, April 18, 2005
I think the issue isn't what people believe, but how they believe it.
If people believe something silly, but it doesn't effect their life, then it doesn't matter much. For instance, if someone takes a poll and expresses belief in space aliens and UFOs but goes to work like everyone else, who cares?
If that same person visits Roswell on vacation and talks about aliens all the time, that's more of a problem.
If they devote their lives to "proving" that aliens exist while neglecting everything else, that's crazy.
The substance of a belief isn't as important as how that belief influences people's actions.
The same is true of politics- it's possible for people to be political extremists whatever their beliefs may be. It's a matter of style, rather than substance.
People's beliefs aren't binary, ones and zeros. We really have to look at what they do. I see extremism as something certain people are drawn to, whatever the substance of the belief they choose.
When an extremist changes his mind, he doesn't become less convinced of the total importance of what he believes. Communists become Jehovah's Witnesses, rabid liberals become rabid conservatives. Beliefs change, the strength of commitment does not.
This is how we all manage to live with each other despite disagreeing about many things. It's because, for most people, it just doesn't matter that much.
"A lot of us think there is one force that's the root cause of all the shit around us."
X. Great comment.
There is no one root of all evil, no one boogeyman. That would be too simple. We get sucked in to thinking there is and suddenly, presto, we're lecturing like a cult leader, scolding sinners and slackers and unbelievers. Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown.
New age bullshit is a symptom, not the cause, of the disease.
Great job you people are doing with this website.
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