November 7, 2011

48% "of 7th to 12th graders experienced sexual harassment in the last school year..."

According to a survey by the American Association of University Women, a nonprofit research organization, which used a broad (and confusing) definition of sexual harassment — "unwelcome sexual behavior that takes place in person or electronically."
Forty-four percent of students said they were harassed “in person” — being subjected to unwelcome comments or jokes, inappropriate touching or sexual intimidation — and 30 percent reported online harassment, like receiving unwelcome comments, jokes or pictures through texts, e-mail, Facebook and other tools, or having sexual rumors, information or pictures spread about them.
I'm guessing that the difference between 44% and 100% is the measure of unwelcomeness. The question included mere comments and jokes. Wouldn't nearly all middle school kids hear such things? The definition does not seem to be limited to comments and jokes that target the individual who answers yes or that persist after the individual has voiced her lack of receptiveness.
“I was called a whore because I have many friends that are boys,” one ninth-grade girl was quoted as saying. An eighth-grade boy, meanwhile, reported, “They spread rumors I was gay because I played on the basketball team.”
These are the comments selected for quoting, so presumably much of the reported harassment is less compelling than that. And yet this sounds like run-of-the-mill teasing. It's not very nice, but isn't it normal childish? I think it's a little funny that both those quotes include points of pride. The girl has a lot of boyfriends. The boy is on the basketball team. It sounds like their "harassers" are jealous and they know it.
The report documents many forms of harassment. The most common was unwelcome sexual comments, gestures or jokes, which was experienced by 46 percent of girls and 22 percent of boys. Separately, 13 percent of girls reported being touched in an unwelcome way, compared with 3 percent of boys; 3.5 percent of girls said they were forced to do something sexual, as did 0.2 percent of boys. About 18 percent of both boys and girls reported being called gay or lesbian in a negative way.
It's important to break down the subcategories of harassment. The touching and, obviously, the forcing are important, but even that information needs to be more fine-grained. You might object to someone touching you on the shoulder. You might feel forced by social norms to hug people you don't particularly want to hug. What counts as "something sexual"? I'm not suggesting bad things don't happen, just looking critically at survey questions that inflate the numbers by grouping things together that don't belong together if we're deciding how outraged we're going to be and what steps we ought to take to intervene.

As for being called gay, that is a special problem. It's not just that it has a sexual aspect, but that it involves perpetuating hostility toward a particular group and it also attacks a central part of a young person's identity (whether the individual is actually gay or not). But, again, let's be careful. Out of 100 instances of a kid getting called "gay," how many are the casual, meaningless proliferation of a bad word and how many truly channel hatefulness?

What is the point of this survey? To get adults exciting about solving a big problem? If so, I want a much more accurate count of genuinely problematic instances.

121 comments:

Henry said...

So tell me. Is Francis the harassed or the harasser?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrllCZw8jiM

Isn't the man entitled to have you keep your meathooks off his stuff? And don't call him Francis.

John M Auston said...

What is the point of this survey?

To remove another shovel-full from under the footings?

Sometimes, the most simple and obvious explanation is to be preferred.

MadisonMan said...

This seems to dumb down what sexual harassment means. At least as I understand it.

Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

EDH said...

That survey was so fucking gay.

Issob Morocco said...

You can't handle their methodology reasoning!! ;-)

MikeR said...

The point of this survey is to defend Herman Cain. Who can be expected to sort this stuff out?

DaveW said...

If we're going to call school yard taunts sexual harassment we might as well go after dads that change diapers next.

Skipper said...

Which litigation attorneys organization financed this study?

rhhardin said...

"unwelcome sexual behavior that takes place in person or electronically."

Steam no longer plays a major role, nor smoke signals, nor yacht flag codes.

Seeing Red said...

Maybe we should treat them like horses and put blinders on when they enter school?

glenn said...

Nobody who has a bunch of self-entitled potty mouth 15 year olds in their neighborhood is surprised about this. Lack of manners pure and simple. Used to be resolved with a punch in the nose.

Mark O said...

DOOM.

Shouting Thomas said...

Time to lawyer up and call in the Diversity Consultants.

Point of this survey... fees for ambulance chasing lawyers and opportunities for consultants to draw a government check.

Renee said...

As someone in middle school who was a target, of harassing that was sexually graphic, twenty years later I'm upset that no one stepped in sooner. I didn't have a lot of friends and socially awkward to begin with. I could be sitting there in tears and the teacher didn't do anything for the longest time. Unfortunately when it came to a head, I could even bare to repeat what was said to me.

I'm not angry at the boys, I'm angry at the adults. Not only teachers, but the parents who leave adult material out. These boys had sources, and this was at a time of pre-internet.

Parents please block the material on cable, don't have TVs or a computer in their personal room. It also helps being a role model, if you don't bring it in the house, there is a less of a chance your son will think that's a normal way to speak to a woman or anyone.

Also even in elementary school that far ago, the term gay or f*g was commonly used. Either way these words should not be used in a school/work setting ever.

The point is maybe, the students feel uncomfortable with this behavior allowed even if they are not a target. They put up with it and even participate just so they won't be next. How would anyone learn in this situation?

It's not like we're asking for everyone to be best friends, just don't be a jerk to your fellow classmates.

traditionalguy said...

The most basic human enterprise is eating and procreating.

After 7000+ years of human traditions developed to fine tune problem areas of our eating and procreating, one would think the details can be taught wisely.

But apparently not anymore without NANNY STATE and its hoard of social workers:

Eat what we tell you,

Breath what we tell you,

Sexually approach others how we tell you,

and worship what /who we tell you.

David said...

Four decades of legalized porn, racy tv shows, raunchy musicians, sex miseducation, parental philandering, dressing like little sex magnets, ineffective discipline, coarse language, Presidential misconduct, smarmy news anchors (yes, you, Anderson Cooper) and blow jobs by the third date tend to have an effect.

madAsHell said...

The American Association of University Women!?!?!

It sounds like a bunch of women that would welcome ANY sexual behavior....in person, or electronically!!

TMink said...

Dealing with unwanted sexual behavior is a part of life. It is only harassment when normative attempts to stop it are ignored.

Trey

Shouting Thomas said...

And they say War is not the answer!

Sometimes, it is.

The U.S. needs and craves a war on its own soil. You can see in this stupidity, and in the sex abuse hysteria in the PSU link, how desperately the U.S. needs and craves a war on its own soil.

Such a war would unleash the bloodlust that liberals secretly crave (see OWS), give everybody a way to completely go crazy with lust and revenge, replace the tedium of our jobs with outbursts of insane debauchery and massacres, and reduce the population without resort to birth control.

War on our own soil would give everybody some degree of perspective on what is and isn't important.

Yes, we need an all out war on our own soil. Everybody's secretly dreaming and lusting for it.

A Conservative Teacher said...

This sort of stuff would never happen if school systems were run by unioned liberal Democrats who pushed diversity and tolerance on students.

new york said...

Renee,
there are a few parents out there that are trying to teach their kids morality and respect, but unfortunately not enough. Sorry you had to go through that when you were in school, in some ways things today are even worse. Our culture is so hyper sexualized, even the most vigilant parents and teachers have a difficult time getting any positive thoughts through to the kids. Give your time and support to community groups that are reinforcing positive images and actions in children. In my community and my family, youth sports for girls has been one of the best antidotes to that relentless sexual presence.

Scott M said...

What constitutes sexual harassment? The pressure to get laid is intense between adolescent boys and grows stronger each year. Among friends it can be just good-natured ribbing from the guys that have to those that have not yet, but among less friendly acquaintances, it can get brutal and embarrassing. I notice this is never really lumped in with so-called sexual harassment.

Why is that? Boys are just supposed to suck it up (no pun).

John said...

The AAUW is a notoriously left wing group of elites.So it's no surprise that deviancy gets defined down to this level.

edutcher said...

They called him gay because he was on the roundball team????

Or is this another of those, "That's so gay", things NBC is all wound up about these days, as EDM suggests.

Have to agree with Shout and David on this although you notice there's one category conspicuous for its absence - heterosexuals being harassed by homosexuals.

In the immortal words of a great American corsetier - Just sayin'.

Shouting Thomas said...

And, back we go to the assertions that sex ed somehow worked, even though unwanted pregnancies and VD increased exponentially in the era of sex ed.

The real question for liberals is not:

How to we effectively prevent unwanted pregnancies and VD?

The question is:

After we've gutted parental authority, patriarchal families and religious belief, how do we stop the plague of unwanted pregnancies and VD that we unleashed?

edutcher said...

'Scuse me, shoulda been EDH

edutcher said...

Shouting Thomas said...

And, back we go to the assertions that sex ed somehow worked, even though unwanted pregnancies and VD increased exponentially in the era of sex ed.

The real question for liberals is not:

How to we effectively prevent unwanted pregnancies and VD?

The question is:

After we've gutted parental authority, patriarchal families and religious belief, how do we
make sure these poor, dumb slobs whose lives we've ruined will remain loyal Democrat voters for all their benighted, impoverished, ignorant days?

FIFY.

Bender said...

As for being called gay, that is a special problem. It's not just that it has a sexual aspect, but that it involves perpetuating hostility toward a particular group and it also attacks a central part of a young person's identity
_______________

In this age, saying that it perpetuates hostility in and of itself perpetuates that very hostility.

Allie's Apple said...

And they say War is not the answer!

Sometimes, it is.

The U.S. needs and craves a war on its own soil. You can see in this stupidity, and in the sex abuse hysteria in the PSU link, how desperately the U.S. needs and craves a war on its own soil.

Such a war would unleash the bloodlust that liberals secretly crave (see OWS), give everybody a way to completely go crazy with lust and revenge, replace the tedium of our jobs with outbursts of insane debauchery and massacres, and reduce the population without resort to birth control.

War on our own soil would give everybody some degree of perspective on what is and isn't important.

Yes, we need an all out war on our own soil. Everybody's secretly dreaming and lusting for it.

11/7/11 9:53 AM

Shouting , when said war transpires, will you be the General? Insane debauchery? Methinks you are feeling randy. As for your bloodlust, have a Bloody Mary, the feelings of rage will subside after a few stiff ones.

Scott M said...

The U.S. needs and craves a war on its own soil.

No, what we really need, but won't get within our lifetimes without "outside" help, is a frontier.

edutcher said...

Allie's Apple said...

And they say War is not the answer!

Sometimes, it is.

The U.S. needs and craves a war on its own soil. You can see in this stupidity, and in the sex abuse hysteria in the PSU link, how desperately the U.S. needs and craves a war on its own soil.

Such a war would unleash the bloodlust that liberals secretly crave (see OWS), give everybody a way to completely go crazy with lust and revenge, replace the tedium of our jobs with outbursts of insane debauchery and massacres, and reduce the population without resort to birth control.


That's certainly what the Occupation wants. And I don't doubt the Apple lurves the Occupation.

Shouting Thomas said...

Shouting , when said war transpires, will you be the General? Insane debauchery? Methinks you are feeling randy. As for your bloodlust, have a Bloody Mary, the feelings of rage will subside after a few stiff ones.

You keep resorting to that same tactic, Allie.

Remember? Righteous anger is a virtue for leftists, but a sign of mental instability on the part of conservatives.

You are constantly pulling it out.

I'm not feeling any rage. I've never wanted to be a general, but I'll be happy to be a private first class in the general debauchery.

Smilin' Jack said...

Out of 100 instances of a kid getting called "gay," how many are the casual, meaningless proliferation of a bad word...

So now "gay" has joined "fag" and "homo" on the ever-growing list of "bad words." Do we need to make up a new word for the condition now, or should we go back to "invert" and begin the cycle anew?

Bender said...

The worst and most corrosive sexual harassment is that perpetrated by the education establishment itself with its pro-hypersexuality agenda, complete with condom distribution, implicitly and explicitly telling kids that sexual activity at their age is the norm.

Combine that with a hypersexualized culture of all sex all the time, it is no wonder that kids will interact with others in a sexualized manner, welcome or not.

Scott M said...

or should we go back to "invert" and begin the cycle anew?

Queer was used quite a bit in the 19th century without malice. Should we start there?

bagoh20 said...

If you breeders would just stop it, we wouldn't have all these humans around acting human. It's uncivilized.

Allie's Apple said...

Shouting , when said war transpires, will you be the General? Insane debauchery? Methinks you are feeling randy. As for your bloodlust, have a Bloody Mary, the feelings of rage will subside after a few stiff ones.

You keep resorting to that same tactic, Allie.

Remember? Righteous anger is a virtue for leftists, but a sign of mental instability on the part of conservatives.

You are constantly pulling it out.

I'm not feeling any rage. I've never wanted to be a general, but I'll be happy to be a private first class in the general debauchery.

11/7/11 10:12 AM
OK OK , guilty as charged. You are very virtuous (righteously of course) in your bloodlust. Why not be a General? You would cut a dashing figure whilst debauching.

jimbino said...

Amerikans are totally uptight and confused about sex. The don't understand that nudity is not sex or that forcing a person to eat a chocolate bar could be worse than showing him your nipple.

In Germany, my students from 14 through 18 hosted skinny-dipping outings and invited me along.

Amerikans also confuse sex and sin. There are whole cultures, like the Japanese, who don't consider sex a moral question. In Amerika, it's the only moral question.

In Brazil, children are far more sexually expressive and condoms are distributed in public school to 11-year-olds.

We now have a country where you can't even tell dirty jokes to adults at the workplace. Prayer, flag-waving, anthems and moments of silence, on the other hand, are inflicted upon us everywhere.

We are a nation of adults learning to be treated as children. I can see why Mexicans exclude women and children from bars! Bars may be the last libertarian refuge in Amerika.

Amerika is a perfect model of the rapture: everybody pure and holy and fully dressed, no discouraging words, sexual innuendo or dirty jokes and not even safe-sex masturbation. Egad!

Scott M said...

If you breeders would just stop it, we wouldn't have all these humans around acting human. It's uncivilized.

If we stop, you'll be demographically overwhelmed in short order, you selfish, self-centered prick.

(said with as much love as the word prick can possible engender)

Doug said...

pailoThe point of the survey is to reinforce the need for "Anti-bullying" initiatives in public schools. My theory: LGBT community behind the empaphasis on "anti-bullying" because they want to punish kids for using the term "gay" as an insult. Kids use that term all the time as a synonym for lame, unpopular, stupid, etc. without any sexuality inferences. The LGBT wants to restrict the word "gay" for their approved purposes only.

Scott M said...

Amerikans are totally uptight and confused about sex. The don't understand that nudity is not sex or that forcing a person to eat a chocolate bar could be worse than showing him your nipple.

You cannot just wish away the backstory. We're the result of Puritanical origins.

In Germany, my students from 14 through 18 hosted skinny-dipping outings and invited me along.

Germans are the result of their backstory. I'd rather not have theirs and would gladly trade a little sexual uptightedness (?) for their history.

In Amerika, it's the only moral question.

Race problems beg to differ.

We are a nation of adults learning to be treated as children.Prayer, flag-waving, anthems and moments of silence, on the other hand, are inflicted upon us everywhere.

Amerika is a perfect model of the rapture: everybody pure and holy and fully dressed, no discouraging words, sexual innuendo or dirty jokes and not even safe-sex masturbation. Egad!

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

...almost as much as your general outlook on things. Please tell me it was satire.

Allie's Apple said...

Jimbino, aren't you glad that we can express our wanton natures without constraint, here on Althouse?

edutcher said...

Smilin' Jack said...

Out of 100 instances of a kid getting called "gay," how many are the casual, meaningless proliferation of a bad word...

So now "gay" has joined "fag" and "homo" on the ever-growing list of "bad words." Do we need to make up a new word for the condition now, or should we go back to "invert" and begin the cycle anew?


Always remember, the Left has spent the last 40 years changing the language so anything you say can be used against you.

Queer just meant strange - counterfeit money was often called queer.

Gay was happy and carefree.

Pot was something you cooked in.

Black was just another color.

Only somebody like Teresa Heinz was an African-American.

If you were born in this country, you were a native American.

Oriental was what somebody from China was.

A woman was flattered if you said she was pretty or held the door for her.

Shouting Thomas said...

The LGBT wants to restrict the word "gay" for their approved purposes only.

The LGBT wants to make itself a special, protected class, free from cricitism and ridicule, with special privileges and rights.

edutcher said...

You just broke the code.

That's why the media, especially the TV nets are pushing homosexuality.

bagoh20 said...

"If we stop, you'll be demographically overwhelmed in short order, you selfish, self-centered prick."

I do thank you for having sex and producing children for my benefit. To think I was in your mind the whole time is... creepy.

Now when I have sex, I'll refuse the condom and proclaim at the top of my lungs: "It's for Scott M that I do this!"

I hope you appreciate my sacrifice, because having kids is a horrible experience, as you know. Don't thank me, because I can't help it. I'm just a giver.

Surfed said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Allie's Apple said...

The LGBT wants to restrict the word "gay" for their approved purposes only.

The LGBT wants to make itself a special, protected class, free from cricitism and ridicule, with special privileges and rights.

11/7/11 10:36 AM
Good grief, is EQUAL rights too much to ask? Is it a special privilege to marry one whom you love? What makes heterosexual marriage better? Some hetero couples choose not to procreate, while some same sex couples actually adopt and live out a more "natural" family unit than a childless couple by choice.

DADvocate said...

The AAUW is a hopelessly liberal organization that fully supports women killing "abusive" husbands, even when there is no evidence of abuse except the woman's word. Why would a woman lie?

Considering the definition they use of sexual harassment, I'm surprised the numbers aren't higher. Myself and almost eveyone I knew during that age range would have been sexually harassed several times a week.

The AAUW is a cause looking for a place to happen. They should be taken with a grain of salt. They seek the liberal, totalitarian utopia.

Surfed said...

As a teacher in a Deep South inner city school the two words I hear most everyday are "Nigga" (or some variation there of) or "Gay". Both words set me on edge. Yet when I correct students on the usage of the terms they just laugh at me. Five minutes later they're right back to using them again. It seems that these words lack the stigma of previous times, days, or eras. That the ugliness has been taken out of the words and they are becoming, if not gentrified, at least defanged as they are used by teenagers. Still, I hate both words.

bagoh20 said...

Seriously, I get called "gay" every single day, and have since I was a kid. I'm not at all effeminate, it's just the culture I grew up in. Should I call 911? I'm also called a racist in every argument with a liberal. I think being a racist is worse than be gay, but I'm confused by all of this. Sometimes I wonder if maybe I am a gay racist. Is there a test I can take, because everyone I talk to thinks I'm one or the other.

Oligonicella said...

"As for being called gay, that is a special problem."

No, it's not.

Christopher in MA said...

"In Brazil, children are far more sexually expressive and condoms are distributed in public school to eleven year olds."

How sweet. A country where the innocence of children is plundered to satisfy your own genital and voyeuristic urges. A pedophile's / NAMBLA-ist's dream.

Yes, yes, I know. If we don't give them condoms, they'll only go out and fuck anyway. Why not just give them all cars, booze and heroin? They're only going to drive, drink and shoot up anyway (and a drunk 11 year old is a lot easier to score into the sack, anyway). Go balls out for freedom, jimbino.

DADvocate said...

I think being a racist is worse than be gay,...

Being liberal is worse than being gay, (or heterosexual).

DCS said...

A classic case of confirmation bias in the study. The authors wanted to find sexual harassment, framed their questions just so...and behold!

Terry said...

As for being called gay, that is a special problem.
Surely Ann meant "Special blessing"?
They can't teach kids to read and write, but they will sure as Hell exercise extremely fine-grained control over their thoughts and behavior. It's almost like that's what the educational establishment thinks is their job.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Renee,

I went through much the same, though I can't much blame the teachers, because the worst of it was on the school bus. Ultimately I basically bugged myself (i.e., surreptitiously borrowed my mom's mini tape recorder) and taped one morning's abuse; then I wrote out a transcript and presented it, with the tape, to the principal the following morning. Problem solved :-)

The thing is, it was all -- surprise, surprise -- juvenile. The kids (and they were all other girls, by the way; I am sooooo tired of hearing people assume that sexual harassment in school is a boy-attacks-girl [or boy-attacks-gay-boy] phenomenon) just threw whatever they thought was offensive at me in the hopes that something would stick. So, yes, I was called a "lezzie." Also, I had "n*gg*r lips" (hey, people pay big money to attain full lips now, not that I had them anyway); "you're so skinny, can't your parents afford to feed you enough?" (would that it had been true, even then); "Does your mom like kinky sex?"; &c.

Now, all this was ca. 1980, but the use of gay slurs today is probably pretty much the same. Except that in the intervening 30 years, many more teens have actually come out, so that it's likely that a lot more of the kids called "fags" or "lezzies" are in fact gay. Whereas I was just a straight nerd who hated sports and listened only to classical music. Kind of the same thing, so far as my bullies were concerned.

wv: prestig. I wonder that no Asian automaker has used that yet.

Shouting Thomas said...

Good grief, is EQUAL rights too much to ask? Is it a special privilege to marry one whom you love? What makes heterosexual marriage better? Some hetero couples choose not to procreate, while some same sex couples actually adopt and live out a more "natural" family unit than a childless couple by choice.

Another one of those EQUAL rights, Allie, is the right to accept criticism and ridicule with grace, just like everybody else.

You are so confused, Allie. You live in the midwest. I've spent the past 35 years in San Francisco and in the gayest districts of NYC.

How did you convince yourself that I'm on a crusade to deny gays their rights?

Allie's Apple said...

Advocate said;

I think being a racist is worse than be gay,...

Being liberal is worse than being gay, (or heterosexual).

11/7/11 10:53 AM
LEFTOPHOBE!

edutcher said...

Allie's Apple said...

The LGBT wants to restrict the word "gay" for their approved purposes only.

The LGBT wants to make itself a special, protected class, free from cricitism and ridicule, with special privileges and rights.


Good grief, is EQUAL rights too much to ask? Is it a special privilege to marry one whom you love? What makes heterosexual marriage better? Some hetero couples choose not to procreate, while some same sex couples actually adopt and live out a more "natural" family unit than a childless couple by choice.


They have equal rights, dear. The same Constitutional rights as everyone else.

Marriage is not one of those rights. We restrict all manner of people from getting married - although The Lefties want to change that so more and more generations of idiots are produced who will become thralls of the State and good, loyal Democrat voters.

"while some same sex couples actually adopt and live out a more "natural" family unit than a childless couple by choice"

The results are just coming in on that one. It don't look promising.

SteveOrr said...

Boys & girls have been accused of being "gay" at an equal rate? What a preposterous claim.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Jimbino,

Prayer, flag-waving, anthems and moments of silence, on the other hand, are inflicted upon us everywhere.

You've had a moment of silence "inflicted" upon you? Have you taken this to Amnesty International?

wv: copytop.

DADvocate said...

LEFTOPHOBE

You bet.

Allie's Apple said...

You are so confused, Allie. You live in the midwest. I've spent the past 35 years in San Francisco and in the gayest districts of NYC.

How did you convince yourself that I'm on a crusade to deny gays their rights?

11/7/11 10:56 AM

OK, then explain what you mean by "special privileges".

Shouting Thomas said...

I already did explain the "special rights and privileges," Allie.

The demand to be released from the rough and tumble of public criticism, ridicule and name calling is a demand for special rights and privileges.

All the rest of us, including white hetero males, are expected to live with criticism, ridicule and name calling.

The correct application of EQUAL rights would be for gays to do what everybody else is required to do... suck it up, develop a sense of humor and don't take yourself so seriously.

Believe me, Allie, what the advocates of this bullshit want... which is to stop hatred of gays by controlling what people think and say... doesn't and will not work. It will produce the opposite result.

Shanna said...

So, teenagers hit on each other? Shocker.

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Amartel said...

What is the point of the survey?

To redefine reality.
To redefine the words "sexual" and "harassment" such that the words, when used together, render almost half of teenagers as "victims" in need of intervention.
To make more people dependent on bureaucracy instead learning how to solve problems for themselves. Same as the "anti-bullying" campaign.
To eventually turn us all into helpless children who require some (government) bureaucracy to mediate our personal problems.

Also, and this is probably an entirely unintended plus:
To drive men and women to hate and distrust each other.
To make a bunch of bitter, ugly ladies feel like victims. AND
To allow a bunch of bitter, ugly gentlement feel like victims.
And give the rest of us a big pain in the ass griping about it.

Pogo said...

This is all in preparation for regulating speech against the favored class of gays.

First, in the classroom, then everywhere else, including churches.

Gay marriage was only the foot in the door. This was all predicted, and yet mocked.

Yet here we are.

prairie wind said...

Haven't read through the comments yet so maybe this has already been said.

Middle-schoolers are both very savvy about sex and woefully stupid about sex.

The words they use are not understood well at all. I was shocked when my daughter described someone as a "whore." When I asked her what that word means, she was able to give only a vague description...basically, it means someone she doesn't like. When I told her what the word means, she was taken aback. She had no idea. So when adults hear the word "whore," they hear it completely differently from the way it was intended to sound.

Pogo said...

The left will regulate every word you say, every mile you drive, every morsel you eat, every step you make, every breath you take.

O Sting, where is thy Death?

Allie's Apple said...

Shouting,
Well then, we all should live and let live and try to control only one person's thoughts, our own. I can live with that.

Scott M said...

O Sting, where is thy Death?

Heretic. He's still got a few good albums left in him, just wait. Sure, the last good one was Summoner's Tales, but still...

prairie wind said...

Is it a special privilege to marry one whom you love?

We all--homo and hetero--can marry someone of the opposite sex. We all have equal rights that way. Oh, but you want the right to marry someone you love. Well, then. That would give me the right to marry your husband if I loved him? What happens to my rights if he didn't love me back? What if I love my brother or my uncle or the little boy next door?

The right to marry someone you love is just stupid. If you want to marry someone of the same sex, at least have the guts to say it that way. But you already have the same right to marry that we all have. Those are the equal rights you asked for.

Pogo said...

You don't have to put on the red light.

In fact, you're not allowed to even mention the red light, or make jokes that someone might have a red light, or which gender the unmentionable red light might be for.

Sting redone
I know my mind is made up
So put away your makeup
Told you once I won't tell you again
It's a bad way

Roxanne
You don't have to put on the DELETED
Roxanne
You don't have to put on the DELETED
Put on the DELETED
Put on the DELETED
Put on the DELETED

Christopher in MA said...

"The left will regulate every word you say, every mile you drive, every morsel you eat, every step you make and every breath you take."

And all the while screaming "get your laws off my body! Get the government out of my bedroom!"

Pogo said...

In the future, every citizen will have four government overseers to assure compliance with every law.

Allie's Apple said...

Is it a special privilege to marry one whom you love?

We all--homo and hetero--can marry someone of the opposite sex. We all have equal rights that way. Oh, but you want the right to marry someone you love. Well, then. That would give me the right to marry your husband if I loved him? What happens to my rights if he didn't love me back? What if I love my brother or my uncle or the little boy next door?

The right to marry someone you love is just stupid. If you want to marry someone of the same sex, at least have the guts to say it that way. But you already have the same right to marry that we all have. Those are the equal rights you asked for.

11/7/11 11:29 AM
OK Prairie, I stand corrected, marry someone of the same sex, as long as he/she isn't already married to someone else, that would be bigamy.

Scott M said...

OK Prairie, I stand corrected, marry someone of the same sex, as long as he/she isn't already married to someone else, that would be bigamy.

And what's the difference between two same-sex, consenting adults deciding that their version of love, marriage and family is more valid (and thus should be more legal) than a man, and woman, and another woman...or, to take your position to it's logical extension, three men?

Same-sex marriage advocates tend to want the door swung wide open for them, legally speaking, but slammed shut right behind them after they walk through.

gutless said...

The same crap used to push the gay school agenda. This is getting old. Sexual harassment, bullying and the right to choose. All language used in the service of deception.

Christopher said...

AAUW is among the least-credible sources on this question. They helped launch Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers' career as a public intellectual (Who Stole Feminism?) by providing laughably easy targets in the ludicrous data they published on gender issues.

Allie's Apple said...

Scott ,good question and a legitimate dilemma. Wasn't marrying outside of ones own race illegal at one time also? Did making it legal open he door for less conventional marriages?

Pogo said...

48% of AAUW studies are completely fabricated, the remaining 52% are absolute bullshit.

Pogo said...

But the last 11% are completely true.

Scott M said...

They helped launch Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers' career as a public intellectual (Who Stole Feminism?) by providing laughably easy targets in the ludicrous data they published on gender issues.

Indeed. Wasn't the AAUW the "organization" that claimed domestic violence against women spiked 40% during the superbowl?

Scott M said...

Speaking of harassment, Gloria Allred is going to have a 1:30 EST press conference with one of the Cain accusers. Is there someone, somewhere, that can render Allred moot? I'm truly sick of seeing her name attached to shit like this.

Roger J. said...

ScottM: You are correct--the AAUW, an unabashedly liberal organization, made that assertion, which has since been vititated by data

however, when you push an agenda, the data arent important.

cassandra lite said...

Isn't the lingua franca of middle school and high school sexual taunting and harassment? That's my recollection.

Renee said...

The difference between work harassment and school harassment, is that people can find another job and quit voluntarily on good grounds. When you're 12 by law you can't quit; it's not at-will.

As Michelle described is what's typical of harassment for a middle school student. It's true some people are jerks, but no you can't be a jerk on school time or if outside of school affects that student's ability to go on about his or her day. Not to repeat myself, it's not about having to like everyone. It's about not being obnoxious and cruel to another for your own personal gratification.

By 7th grade every student should be able to start acting and thinking more like adults, considering they're at the point of puberty, in how to respect others.

Matt said...

Just because some of these cases seem to be nothing more than teasing that does not mean ALL cases are merely teasing. They need to be considered on a case by case basis.

I think if kids are hurt or upset by harrassment or bullying then that is a concern.

If any of you have kids out there and they came home and reported harrassment or being called a 'whore' or being called 'gay' what would you do? Ignore it?

Would you also be upset if a school councelor tried to help or intervene to prevent it from continuing?

Scott M said...

@Matt

Would you also be upset if a school councelor tried to help or intervene to prevent it from continuing?

At what age to you believe that a child/teen/young adult should have the ability to deal with these things without adult intervention? 25?

There is a difference between parental indifference and the need to teach strength of character (so your child doesn't become a bully) and strength of self (so your child can defend themselves against bullies). Helicoptering this generation is not going to be net positive for the country...any country...and that's just what we're doing.

ignatzk said...

American Association of University Women

I saw that label and immediately dismissed whatever the group had to say.

Amy said...

A boy told my 7th grade daughter that he wants to see her naked. I doubt if she views it as sexual harassment, but I do. From what I've witnessed, both boys and girls in middle school are incredibly bold when it comes to talking about sex. Ironically (or maybe not), they don't even know what they're talking about half the time. I guess it's their way of flirting. I totally get middle school style flirting, but a remark like I wrote above could make some girls very uncomfortable, and therefore it's harassment.

Allie's Apple said...

Anybody listening to the Gloria Allred news conference?Holy shit.

Scott M said...

All of the live feeds I tried are camped hard.

Scott M said...

@Amy

Harassment, in a legal or policy sense, cannot fall to the subjective level of the victim or we're all in for bad roads ahead.

Allie's Apple said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Allie's Apple said...

Well he sure wasn't comparing his wife's height with hers, unless perhaps when he was pushing her head toward his crotch , she looked shorter than she was.

Shouting Thomas said...

Gloria Allred is the ultimate ambulance chaser and publicity hound.

The fact that she's involved in anything immediately labels that venture a fraud.

Shouting Thomas said...

Allred has already establish on many occasions that she's willing to lie and fabricate in any way needed to advance the causes of the Democratic Party.

So, now we know. These allegations against Cain are complete fabrications.

Allie's Apple said...

That may be Shouting, but do you think this woman would go public , she seems intelligent, she probably understands the repercussions of giving false testimony on such a huge scale. Time will tell, I hear the are 8 women who have come forward, maybe more will go public after this.

Spread Eagle said...

Boys chase girls until the girl catches the boy.

In the 70s-80s, some adults females, girls who didn't get chased so much, along with some of the girls who didn't like some of the boys who chased them, came up with the concept of sexual harassment to describe the process. Energies, IMHO, would've been better spent by these women encouraging mothers to teach and reinforce good old fashioned gentlemanly values in their sons.

Shouting Thomas said...

That may be Shouting, but do you think this woman would go public , she seems intelligent, she probably understands the repercussions of giving false testimony on such a huge scale. Time will tell, I hear the are 8 women who have come forward, maybe more will go public after this.

Now that Allred is involved, I know for certain that this is just a Democratic Party plot to destroy Cain. Nothing else there.

What "repercussions?" An appearance on Oprah? Book deal? Heroine of the Democratic Party.

This is nothing more than a deliberate racist attack on Cain.

No doubt about it now. Allred sealed the deal.

Scott M said...

Time will tell, I hear the are 8 women who have come forward, maybe more will go public after this.

I could never run for high office. Ever.

Allie's Apple said...

So Scott, you have lurid past , you want to share?

Shouting Thomas said...

I only the most minor of public figures, Allie.

I can name 8 women who wished I'd romanced them and are pissed off as hell that I didn't.

If they had the chance, they would be more than happy to take their revenge by asserting that I "harassed" them.

They aren't doing that solely because there isn't any money or notoriety in it.

Scott M said...

So Scott, you have lurid past , you want to share?

Lurid isn't a big enough word. However, as certain people that know me grace these pages and possess delicate constitutions. It would be unwise and impolitic of me to elucidate any further.

prairie wind said...

Middle wouldn't believe us if we told them that their lurid middle school years could make it impossible for them to run for higher office. But with the way things live forever online, not at all out of the question that a video of a kid saying "That's so gay" or "she's a whore" would come up in an election campaign 30 years down the road.

Unless you are Barack Obama, of course.

Allie's Apple said...

Well then Scott and Shouting, good thing you aren't running for the highest office in the land. Besides, aren't we sick of Clintonesque oval office "romances"? Why risk that again , if the allegations are true and he misused his power back then, what will he be capable of as President ?

Scott M said...

Well then Scott and Shouting, good thing you aren't running for the highest office in the land. Besides, aren't we sick of Clintonesque oval office "romances"?

Don't get me wrong...all of that's way behind me so I would have no problem not pulling a Clinton (no pun). My point was more toward the campaign that would inevitably have to deal with various, er, things...

Matt said...

Scott M

At what age to you believe that a child/teen/young adult should have the ability to deal with these things without adult intervention? 25?

Where do you get the idea I would approve of the age 25 being the cutoff date? That's crazy dude.

I'm talking middle school age. You seem to think there is nothing that anyone could ever say or do to you or your kids that would bother you in the least. That is odd.

I'm not talking about babying our children for every little petty thing that comes along. What I am saying is there are times when our kids are insulted, offended or harrassed and maybe we should talk to them about it. You seem to just want to ignore it as a 'kids thing' that builds 'strength of character'. Do you really believe in this fictional John Wayne approach to life?

Seriously, there is a middle ground. And it's not a 'liberal thing'. It's called common sense. Kids need parental and councelor support from time to time.

Shouting Thomas said...

Well then Scott and Shouting, good thing you aren't running for the highest office in the land. Besides, aren't we sick of Clintonesque oval office "romances"? Why risk that again , if the allegations are true and he misused his power back then, what will he be capable of as President ?

The appearance of Allred on the scene makes it clear that there is no substance to these allegations. This is now, without any doubt, a Democratic Party character assassination campaign.

Cain will have to prove himself now. This is a racist attack by the Democratic Party, intended to picture him as a black man who can't control himself. The Democratic Party takes any defection from the plantation as a direct threat.

I'd like to see Cain win this battle. We'll see what he's made of, won't we, Allie?

Sooner or later, a black man will appear on the scene who knows how to defeat these racist tactics. (Well, Justice Thomas succeeded on a different stage.)

Pragmatist said...

One of the pleasure of reading comments on a subject like this is to see how soon and how often it descends into Just Plain Fucking Nuts. The real breakdown in thinking isn't Left/Right or Conservative/Liberal it is Crazy/Sane. JPFN can be seen on both ends of the political spectrum but not so much in the middle. It would be nice if the Bookends of Idiocy could hit the mute button and let the grownups speak. But unfortunately the media wants loud proud and stupid. Makes better press.

Renee said...

If I was 25 and experienced the same thing what I endured in 7th the grade, I would go to the police and file and criminal harassment charges and get a restraining order. So maybe that is what we should do to harassers? But I know my harassers were 12 also, and I hope to think they now know what they did was wrong. Since we were not full adults, teachers need to step in and correct harassing behavior without being punitive.

Matt said...

Shouting Thomas said...

The appearance of Allred on the scene makes it clear that there is no substance to these allegations

Don't be so sure. The fact that this woman came forward with these allegations is no small thing.

That alone tells me that there could be something to the allegations.

She has to know she will be pilloried by every right winger out there. They will turn her life upside down.

Scott M said...

Where do you get the idea I would approve of the age 25 being the cutoff date? That's crazy dude.

That's snark. I'm of the opinion, in general, that we allow our "children" to be so well into their 20's these days. I'm 41 with a 20, 7, 4, and 2.

You seem to think there is nothing that anyone could ever say or do to you or your kids that would bother you in the least. That is odd.

What's odd is your assumption based on nothing that supports it.

You seem to just want to ignore it as a 'kids thing' that builds 'strength of character'.

Not at all. I've always maintained wide open communication with my children, regardless of age and what they're going through. Odd that you would think I want to ignore it. What does John Wayne have to do with any of this, by the way? Conservative = John Wayne Fantasy in your mind?

My approach to life is that untold generations of people were born, raised, and did just fine without all the crap that we seem insistent on shoving down their formative throats these past couple of decades. It's my opinion that it's been a net negative for our society.

Seriously, there is a middle ground.

If you read carefully, you might see that's exactly what I was advocating for.

And it's not a 'liberal thing'.

Who said that it was? You seem defensive.

Shanna said...

Since we were not full adults, teachers need to step in and correct harassing behavior without being punitive.

The problem is, what can teachers actually do at this point? In public school, you can't just kick them out of class for lacking manners. What can teacher reasonably do about this stuff in that climate?

I think there is some terrible bullying/harrassment in schools and it's probably always been so, but since many people have raised perfect little heathens who have no manners at all we're just going to get more of it. Good manners solve a host of problems.

Matt said...

Scott M

I think the 'strengh of character' part set me off a bit. I over- interpreted your view.

I also was in part lumping you in with Pogo who seems to think harrassment is all made up.

Sure, some do pamper their kids too much. And, yes, there are too many law suits. But harrassment is not just a small thing. In the past parents and teachers did let a lot of things go and ignore others. I'm not sure that was a good idea.

Scott M said...

I'm not sure that was a good idea.

I appreciate the sentiments before that and have to say that, as to the above, I think the knee-jerk reaction to "letting things go" in the past is one of the problems I have. I get the sense that there are a lot of people, some who've never had kids (surprise, surprise) that are quick to try out the latest psychobabble du jour without enough contemplation about the consequences.

My goal with my kids is to raise the bar and keep it raised. There are definitely age-appropriate things that they cannot handle where my wife or I will step in, but for the most part, we're letting them figure out things themselves as much as possible.

I'm blessed to have a wife that is 100% with me on that.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Matt,

I'm with you until here:

Seriously, there is a middle ground. And it's not a 'liberal thing'. It's called common sense. Kids need parental and counselor support from time to time.

No, what kids need is for other kids' parents to lay down the law. The very last thing I needed in my own situation was "counseling." What I needed was a metaphorical stick to beat the bullies off with. So I whittled one.

My parents were supportive, naturally; but I didn't tell them about this until after the fact. You can guess why, right? Nothing fuels bullying like running to a Mom and Dad who have a habit of calling the principal about the slightest complaint. I thought I had better do this myself, and let them know afterwards. As I said, it worked.

wv: drinsid. Is that Dr. Insid(e), or Dr. Insid(ious)?

Renee said...

In hindsight, due to the age and sexual nature I think the teacher should of called child protective services when I was sexually harassed. It obvious these 12 year olds in my harassment situation had access to material from adults. Knowing parents may be charged for neglect or have their children removed, might give the m motivation not to have it in the home.