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"But executing him makes us just like him."
This is one case where, in all honesty, I think we should let God sort them out. So I hope the accomplice gets the death penalty too.
It is difficult for normal people to grasp the mindset of a sociopath. My bride and myself dealt w/ more than our share of them. They do understand the concept of right and wrong, they simply don't care. What a sociopath wants trumps any semblance of normal right/wrong. What they want, or what they want to do becomes "right". They fully understand it is not right to kill, but they want to kill..so they do.This murder happened in my home state. I've had relatives call me trying to understand this heinous crime. As you might imagine, it was big local news. What made it big was in large part the victims..a doctor's family. Apparently the other victims weren't of the same class.
The letter is one of three or four the remorseless madman has penned from his inside his cell, the Register reported."I've searched my whole life for someone who could embrace and had the capacity for evil as I possess," Hayes wrote. "I thought I finally found it in Josh.""But events show Josh, while (he) had the proper evil intent, lacked in the most serious aspects, commitment and control."The really strange part is that this was a letter to "At Night with Delilah" to play a request on the radio "for all the lovelorn out there tonight" who are "still looking for the right guy".
"ndspinelli said...It is difficult for normal people to grasp the mindset of a sociopath. My bride and myself dealt w/ more than our share of them. They do understand the concept of right and wrong, they simply don't care. What a sociopath wants trumps any semblance of normal right/wrong. What they want, or what they want to do becomes "right". They fully understand it is not right to kill, but they want to kill..so they do.This murder happened in my home state. I've had relatives call me trying to understand this heinous crime. As you might imagine, it was big local news. What made it big was in large part the victims..a doctor's family. Apparently the other victims weren't of the same class."Wow, thanks for the insight. "They fully understand it is not right to kill, but they want to kill..so they do." Complex. I can see why "normal" people, myself included, can't understand such complexity.
There are monsters in this world. The monsters, however don't look like monsters. They look like people.Don't know who said it, but they are correct.
The only think you have to "understand" about this guy is that if you strap him down, stick a needle in his arm, and push the plungers, the world will be a better place.
Well, I can see he and I never would have gotten along. This is what the conversation would have been like:Hayes: Lets go kill someone now.Me: Meh, maybe tomorrow. It's Sunday and there are some good games on.Hayes: Come on, we have to do it NOW!Me: Hey, no way, it's my day off. Plus, murder is so messy and so much work. Can't we just maim our victims and steal their shoes? I mean, come on, serial killing was sooo 80's. Lets at least do something different.... Unique!Nope. Never would have worked out between us.
If there is any justice, Hayes will soon be well executed also.
So, tell me again why we should 'never' have the death penalty.In addition, I would vote for it to be retroactive to the parents who raised this inhuman animal and didn't warn the world.
As Lucius said, this is why you have a death penalty.And, for once, let's see one of the Lefties really do something for the good of society.WV "crypot" Robert Cook.
Curious, Your sarcasm shows your lack of context, a remoteness. I was not afforded that luxury..my bride and myself dealt w/ sociopaths for a living and believe me you would not be so cavalier if you did. They are monsters, that normal people think are crazy. They are not. That was my point. What do you do for a living? Did my comment about the class of victims upset you..it was curious you didn't mention that.
Meanwhile, our prisons are filling up with--and our state and federal budgets are crushed under the burden of incarcerating so many--people who were convicted of much more minor crimes: drug possession, possession of child porn. If we could just remember the difference between serious crimes and moral failings.
In the rambling, 17-page, handwritten missive, So cliché.
Look, if he didn't do anything approaching what Saddam did, he shouldn't be executed, right?
Patrick, There was a documentary produced back in the 90's about serial killers that gave as good an insight into the sociopaths mind I've ever seen. There was a serial killer of children from the Northwest..Seattle area I think. he was a fairly handsome, boyish looking young man. He looked into the camera and said, "Don't ever let me out of prison, because I'll kill another child. I know I don't look like a monster, but I am." Ted Bundy is the other obvious example.
ndspinelli said... What made it big was in large part the victims..a doctor's family. Apparently the other victims weren't of the same classReally think it was the "class" (upper middle) 0f the victims that set this apart?I would think it was at least as much gender.Even if the victims had been poor black females, the report of 2 guys, invading their home, tyiing them to beds, torturing, raping and burning them (with the Husband / Father strapped down nearby?) would not have gotten the press?Pop Is a surgeon, I'd strap them in a room and send him in with a scapel. I suspect that you wouldn't want any videos
ndspinelli --"They are monsters, that normal people think are crazy."Dude, they are crazy, they're just cogent. Don't conflate crazy with the inability to function. Like my ex used to say, "Unless they're captured while sitting around playing with the corpse, they knew what they were doing."
Do you think the problem with the death penalty as deterrent that doesn't work is that it is too humane?Maybe being flayed and boiled in fat and feces would have more of an impact than just a needle in the arm.
Damned clever these sociopaths. What he is saying is "Kill me, and you will never know about these 17 unsolved murders."
"ndspinelli said...Curious, Your sarcasm shows your lack of context, a remoteness. I was not afforded that luxury..my bride and myself dealt w/ sociopaths for a living and believe me you would not be so cavalier if you did. They are monsters, that normal people think are crazy. They are not. That was my point. What do you do for a living? Did my comment about the class of victims upset you..it was curious you didn't mention that."Dude, my sarcasm comes from your insistence on what "normal" people think. I think guys like this are just evil...that's hardly some "news flash." I think most people know they understand right from wrong and just don't care. That's why they try to evade capture. I read your post and said "no shit".As far as what i do for a living, it didn't play into it. As for the "class of victims", of course the press takes on the story big time when some prominent family is the victim. Or a beautiful young girl. Nothing new about that either.
The Mexicans can take pride in living in a country where capital punishment has been eliminated. Clearly they function at a higher level of civilization than their neighbors to the north. If only they could convince their drug cartels of the barbarity and ineffectiveness of capital punishment. Perhaps, as a halfway measure and as a gesture of respect for the humane society in which they live, they could ask the cartels to refrain from decapitations and disembowellments.
The principle that we cannot have an institutional death penalty in our Justice System has a huge blind spot.Factoid #1) The man with the power to kill will become the man who rules over a society without it.#2) We assert that we don't trust our Jury system with appeals for 20 years to protect the innocent.#3) Ergo we do trust the mercy of stone cold killers ruling over us.Operative example: When the penalty for cold blooded murder is the same as the penalty for robbery, then it becomes open season on "witnesses" at the robbery scenes.But who cares if you and your family members never take night shift store clerk jobs.
"In addition, I would vote for it to be retroactive to the parents who raised this inhuman animal and didn't warn the world."Yeah, because they intentionally set out to raise a psychopath! When I was a teenager, my best friend had a younger brother who often acted out violently, and have a particular love for setting things on fire. Almost set our garage ablaze. He was some years later institutionalized. Granted, the parents were horrible wretched parents (oh I could tell some stories), and their actions and parenting was IMO abusive. But even then, they didn't set out to crate a monster. Note that none of the other 6 kids turned out to be monsters. Point is, you have no idea how this guy was raised. You can't prevent someone from being a psychopath, even if you raise the kid in a good family environment. Don't pass judgement on the actions of the guy onto his parents because you can rarely show the parents created the monster.
Even if the victims had been poor black females, the report of 2 guys, invading their home, tyiing them to beds, torturing, raping and burning them (with the Husband / Father strapped down nearby?) would not have gotten the press?The point is that the PRESS (with capitals) would not have been as large or covered were it poor blacks. Just as the PRESS is in little letters, with small coverage, when the perpetrators of such horrific crimes are black.The press covers up when the perp is 'ethinic'. When you read of a horrific crime and there is no description of the perp OR the victim, you can bet your boots that it is ethnic centered.It is the same thing when a political scandal is covered with no indication of the political party. Republicans are NAMED. Democrats are hidden.The reason this one got such press, in addition to the horrible nature of the crime, was because the people involved were wealthy, white on white. It is what it is. You can't deny it.
Curious, Whether you realize it or not, you are in the minority. Most people can't really grasp a person taking someone elses life just simply because they want to. It is not complex @ all. But it is so contrary to how we "normal" people think and believe that many overanalyze it or consider it crazy, when as you said, it's really just "evil" incarnate. Finally Curious, I apologize for insinuating you are normal. I will never explicitly or implicitly call you "normal" again. I assume you don't want to be called "abnormal." I'm just bustin' balls here, kid.
@SonicfrogI guess I needed to bold and captialize....AND DIDN'T WARNPerhaps sociopaths are born and not raised. That is a question that is yet to be determined. Nature/Nurture.However, unless you are a totally brain dead sociopathic persona yourself, you have to know that there is something wrong with your child. A sociopath may be able to hide as an adult; they have had plenty of time to practice. However, parents as well as others in contact with a child can see that this in not a normal child.As in the case with your childhood friend. The signs are there and they 'finally' did something about it instead of letting a monster loose upon the public.Sociopaths who are created by sociopathic parents (Natural Born Killers) deserve sympathy.....shortly before they are put down just as you would put down a rabid dog.Responsibility and consequences.
DBQ, Excellent points. And the Showtime series Dexter covers your point exactly. His dad new he was a monster. And, being a cop, his dad knew there is no cure. So..he tried to instill a "code" where he would only kill other sociopaths. And your point about finding cover as an adult sociopath is dealt w/ constantly in the series. It is one of the best shows of all time.
Damned clever these sociopaths. What he is saying is "Kill me, and you will never know about these 17 unsolved murders."This was my first thought about it. How many people with a missing family member are now wondering if this guy is responsible?
Sonicfrog, If your friends brother started his career as a firesetter there's a pretty good chance he was sexually abused. I'm not excusing..just trying to give some context.
Marybeth, The Cook County Sheriff[who is a hot dog, camera hound] is doing a good thing. There are many John Wayne Gacy victims who have never been IDed. He has recently set up a program making it easy to help potential victims families determine if there son, brother, etc. is one of those victims
this particular perp is an example of why we should not put aside hanging drawing and quartering as a punishment.
when the crime is horrific, the punishment equally so
I would put him in solitary and say:"It tells us the location of a murder. It does this whenever it's told. It tells us, or else it gets the hose again. Now it places the body's location in the basket. Put the f*cking location in the basket!
I see no reason to give these "confessions" credibility.After all, they cost this confessor nothing. And it's surely not uncommon for criminals to brag about how bad they are.
there is evil in world as much as we would like to think otherwise--exterminate evil as we do with cockroaches. this isnt hard
As in the case with your childhood friend. The signs are there and they 'finally' did something about it instead of letting a monster loose upon the public.That isn't quite how it went down. The kids were very much psychologically abused. There was no love in that household. The mother, who we all referred to as "SHE" had adopted six of her seven children. They were basically her slaves. They cleaned house all day, including under the kitchen cabinets every day, including HER bedroom, which she left a mess before SHE went to work. That included cleaning up any evidence left behind by the guy she was having an affair with. She was a great manipulator. When social services were going to come by and do an eval, she would find out in advance and conveniently be throwing a party, complete with the kids serving snacks and drinks to the guests. SHE was even voted "Mother of the Year" by social services while they lived in China Lakes. Chris, the pyro, was a sweet kid when he was around the parents. And they knew that he would do these things, our family and others had told them. But as long as he served his purpose in HR life, no intervention happened, except for the punishment of being on restriction, which they were anyway (my best friend Mike, of the three years we lived across the street from each other, was on restriction for all but four months of that time). It wasn't until Chris started to defy them openly that action was taken. He was institutionalized because he became an inconvenience, not because he was a pyro. These parent were really F'ed up! And I forgot to mention, three of the other kids also spent some time in an institution, even though they never showed any of those violent behaviors at all. In short, the monster was loose for years, and SHE knew it.Have to go work now. Will stop by later.
Hayes is helping to mitigate the responsibility of his co-murderer by claiming that he has a long history of committing murder and by saying Joshua Komisarievsky was just not up to the job.That was Komisarievsky's defense--murder and rape was Steven Hayes' idea and Hayes made him do it.The sentencing phase of Komisarievsky's trial ia about to begin. Hayes is helping his buddy by his murder claims.
Martha 12:18 is spot on. Word to everything she says."Roger J. said...when the crime is horrific, the punishment equally so."Except it isn't.We give them 20 years of free squares, TV, and free lawyering until someone gives them a pleasant drug cocktail which puts them down the same way we euthanize an ailing or dying beloved family pet.
"Roger J. said...when the crime is horrific, the punishment equally so."OK, I'll amend my proposal.Pop Is a surgeon, I'd strap them in a room and send him in with a scapel and a soldering iron to cautherize the sliced off ends. . I suspect that you wouldn't want any videosThe body of a dead enemy always smells sweet.Titus Flavius Vespasian
This is why we have the death penalty. There are cases where justice is impossible without the death penalty.
Where are the tennis shoes?
Dust Bunny - "In addition, I would vote for it to be retroactive to the parents who raised this inhuman animal and didn't warn the world."So, we track down the parents of killers now...and kill them...for not "warning" us?You get dumber by the day.
Time to fire up Old Sparky!
There will be some true believers that will protest this guys execution. I can understand them, they have a serious religious disagreement with capital punishment. I got no problem with them. In fact I can sorta agree with them because of my old Catholicism.The ones that should be ashamed are the ones that WON'T protest because this guy isn't a cop killer. You know the Leftist.
IF capital punishment was used uniformly across the states, killers might be more frightened of the death sentence. And the punishment should fit the crime. If a child is killed, and the family feels that five minutes with a dremel and a blow torch is what makes them feel better, then that's what the punishment would be. It should be up to them.A sociopath will never be "cured", they are never rehabilitated. They should be gone from this world.
I see no reason to give these "confessions" credibility.After all, they cost this confessor nothing. And it's surely not uncommon for criminals to brag about how bad they are.Back in the 1980s, there was a low-life character named Henry Lee Lucas who confessed to 360 murders.Most likely, he committed one murder.I'll believe Hayes' statement when it's backed by solid evidence.In the meantime, he can fry for what he's already been convicted of doing.
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