July 26, 2011

"A toddler was found wandering alone in Battery Park City yesterday -- hours after his troubled mother was taken to a hospital, cops said."

"It took nine hours before police realized Trevon Frazier, 3, was on his own, officials said. The tot was discovered at 9:30 a.m. inside Teardrop Park, a 2-acre green space between Warren and Murray streets by North End Avenue, officials said."

First, some numbers are missing from this NY Post story. It took 9 hours for the police to realize they taken the mother away from a toddler, but how many more hours passed before they found the child?

So, a 3-year-old was wandering around in this busy part of Manhattan for (presumably) far longer than 9 hours, and in all that time, no one helped him. I mean, it's great that no one hurt him, but why didn't anyone help him?

Perhaps he was skilled at hiding. (The mother is "emotionally disturbed," we're told.) I anticipate that some of you will say that people these days are afraid to go up to a child, because they imagine that they might be accused of child molestation or kidnapping. But think about how you would help a child in the situation. I look around when I'm in public. I notice children. When I see a child that seems to have a problem, I look around to see if he is attended. You don't go right up to a child, but you can start talking to the adults in the area about whether this child is alone. If you are male and feel especially vulnerable to accusations, see if there is a woman nearby, talk to her, and enlist her help. Or bring other men into the rescue effort. If there are no other adults anywhere around, you have a moral responsibility to approach the child somehow and try to help — especially in the city, especially at night. What is wrong with people?

163 comments:

Patrick said...

"What is wrong with people?"

Generally, people are selfish, self centered jerks.

Ken said...

Just the fact that you suggest a man should approach a woman to intervene shows you understand, even if you grossly underestimate, the danger to men in such situations. Ask your male colleagues how many of them have restrictions on seeing female students during office hours.

So in an adult-rich environment most men will just walk away -- they way they have been told to.

rhhardin said...

It's a wonder they're not called wanderers instead of toddlers.

Quaestor said...

Ann, I think you nailed it. It's far too easy to saddle someone with a false charge of child molestation these days, and with the wide acceptance of sexual practices heretofore considered perversions just about the only thing left to use in a blackmail scheme is a charge of indecent liberties with a child.

SunnyJ said...

You can also call emergency services and just keep an eye on the small person until they get there. Intervening only if you see something that would immediately endanger them.

I wonder if this particular toddler had wandered there before, and with an unstable parent, that is possible. They might have been part of the daily scene and others presumed she'd show up.

It's not like calling Social Services always makes things better for the child. The distrust exists.

MayBee said...

He was wandering mostly at night?

Henry said...

If he was found at 9:30 am that means most of the time he was lost was the middle of the night. That's sounds worse for the poor kid, but it explains why he wasn't found so quickly.

Henry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

Good people take risks to save strangers.

So where have all of the good Samaritan people gone?

It is a fierce world when the good people are MIA.

Henry said...

MayBee spotted the time too.

There have been a few times that I've rounded up a stray toddler at a local park or coffeehouse. But that's just a game of border collie in broad daylight with the confused parent usually easy to spot.

But we all have cell phones. If you see a three-year-old alone how hard is it to call 911 and hang close until police arrive?

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

From the article:

"Being raised by squirrels, he was well trained for surviving in the park. He had developed the art of begging for food scraps from park patrons, and could easily scale the large trees there to escape danger. The authorities are considering how to reintroduce him to the wild."

I swear to God it says that.

Scott M said...

When I see a child that seems to have a problem, I look around to see if he is attended.

Always. Unfortunately (probably courting disaster here), I've never pussyfooted around trying to figure out what's going on in fear of legal retribution. The couple of times that I have seen unattended children, there were employees nearby that I made aware of the situation then stayed long enough to make sure a manager was involved. He's got the bullypulpit of the overhead mic system, afterall.

Prior to having my own kids, I didn't get involved for the reasons Ann outlines. In my 20's, I had already had first-hand experience with men I knew (two teachers, one coach, one USAF captain) getting nailed for absolutely nothing when they were just trying to help.

When I read this article and saw how long that kid was alone, a cold sweat broke out. My kids getting away from me is one of my strongest fears.

technogypsy said...

15 years ago I'd have gone and talked to the child.

10 years ago I'd enlist a woman's help.

Today I'd call the police. Then watch from a distance. It's not worth having my life and family destroyed. I'm limited my work with Scouts and Church groups and I've even stopped working with female students of any age without witnesses due to the climate.

Abdul Abulbul Amir said...

If they found him at 9:30am, he may have been sleeping in an out of the way location.

bagoh20 said...

"I've even stopped working with female students of any age without witnesses due to the climate."

Climate change effects us all, that's why Gore works so hard.

David said...

Of course it's possible he was with someone for a while, and then not. That is not necessarily a good scenario.

As for the child molestation accusation risk for men, just how risk adverse do you want to be? A kid is lost or otherwise in trouble. Just step in and help the kid. It's your moral duty. You can do it in a way that won't get you in trouble, if you have any common sense.

gerry said...

Good people take risks to save strangers.

So where have all of the good Samaritan people gone?


This was in New York City, right?

Fred4Pres said...

Seriously, it is hard to assess this without knowing how the child was acting and the context.

But I do know men would tend not to pay attention, not because they don't care about kids, but because of accusations. So they tend to block kids out as things to even look at.

Ned said...

Disintegration of the family...not unusual to see children wandering aimlessly.
Price to be paid for reaching out...lawsuit, jail, the hell beat out of you or murdered.
And...don't wanna judge you know!
Liberalism 101 :)

Kit said...

Almost 30 years ago, we noticed a slightly distressed (about) 10 year old girl at Memorial Union and approached her to see what we could do to help. She was expecting to meet her grandparents but, seems to have gotten off the Greyhound at the wrong stop. I stayed with her as my husband made a few calls. It took a while, but eventually, we got everybody together.

Being that this was a Friday night and quite busy, she could have easily gone unnoticed for quite a while. I'm glad it all worked out in the end.

On another note, we have a daughter (24, now), who of course, growing up, always had a lot of friends over. My husband was very conscious to never be the only adult when they were over.

Jeff with one 'f' said...
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MadisonMan said...

You people are all too afraid. I would not hesitate to help. You go up to the kid, and ask if he's lost. You stay with him or her 'til help arrives. It's not that hard.

I have no problems meeting with students either, male or female, who take my class.

Jeff with one 'f' said...

Feminists have done a pretty spectacular job of isolating men from women and children.

Separatism by default.

bagoh20 said...

Being a single guy living alone, kids are like kryptonite. When I see one, I grab the first woman available, and start proving my conformity. I prefer a charge of attempted rape to child molestation. It's more acceptable today, and manly.

Trapper Townshend said...

Maybe the child ducked underneath a bush and spent the night there. I could easily understand no one seeing him for hours.

Also, you are underestimating the risk that a man takes getting involved in a situation like this. Even if he recruits other people, he was still first on the scene, and it's just a matter of coaching the three-year-old to point between the legs of some doll. I don't know anything about the mother, or the other family involved, but that is the world we live in these days.

E.M. Davis said...

Police calmed the whimpering youngster with a New York Giants blanket

Was Trooper there?

E.M. Davis said...

You people are all too afraid. I would not hesitate to help. You go up to the kid, and ask if he's lost. You stay with him or her 'til help arrives. It's not that hard.


I agree with Madison.

Always do the right thing.

bagoh20 said...

"So where have all of the good Samaritan people gone?"

Good Samaritans are lawyer bait. You can have Good Samaritans or lawyers, not both, so pick one.

John said...

As for the child molestation accusation risk for men, just how risk adverse do you want to be?

I hate to be "that guy," but I think the word you wanted to use was "averse," not "adverse." (Sorry, it's one of my pet peeves.)

Shanna said...

As for the child molestation accusation risk for men, just how risk adverse do you want to be? A kid is lost or otherwise in trouble.

I understand the fear that someone you have spent time alone with might accuse you of something, but how likely is it truly that, upon finding a 3 year old wandering in a park and calling the police, you would be accused of anything? I mean, is there a huge precedent for this, or are people just being overly fearful?

Although it sounds most likely that nobody found him because it was late at night.

Sixty Grit said...
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Hockey Bum said...

The tot was discovered at 9:30 a.m. inside Teardrop Park, a 2-acre green space

New York City parks are generally closed to the public at night. According to the Project for Public Spaces:

The only area [of the park] that gets regular use is the slide, which only gets used by children who most likely live in adjacent buildings. ...this activity is restricted from 3-6PM.

Palladian said...

Quaestor said "...and with the wide acceptance of sexual practices heretofore considered perversions just about the only thing left to use in a blackmail scheme is a charge of indecent liberties with a child."

Yeah, it's too bad we can't just blackmail people for being queers and such, like in the good ol' days.

bagoh20 said...

The thing about child molestation charges is that the charges alone are devastating and will haunt that person forever. The truth has no effect on that. We are simply hysterical or androphobic if you will. Feminism was mutated into a mental illness.

Pogo said...

"You people are all too afraid. "

A guy I know used to think this way. He coached a [deleted] team of young men and women, teenagers all, going back 30 years.

One young woman accused him of touching her breast, in a timeframe where he wasn't alone with her for more than a minute, as people were in and out of the room repeatedly.

He was convicted, and spent weekends in jail for 6 months.

He had no defense at all. He still doesn't know why she targeted him.

That said, I would help, but only peripherally: cell phone the cops, watch from a good distance, and not be seen watching.

And ask a woman to help?
You mean someone like Rebecca Watson, who will freak out?

You gotta be kidding.

bagoh20 said...

So if the boy is 15, is that a perversion requiring lifelong monitoring or is that being part of a protected class much preferred for certain types of employment in entertainment, arts and fashion?

ricpic said...

Battery Park City? Masters of the Universe don't have time to waste on lost kids!

Carol_Herman said...

For some amount of time the kid was with his grandma. And, going unmentioned is the possibility the kid was recognized?

How did the kid bypass getting hungry? Did he curl up for a nap?

Seems the police in Manhattan are as "capbable" as those in Oslo? Who knew? Do they have donut shops in Oslo?

And, if I had to guess? Social services is way more dangerous than the crazy mom.

Also, I don't believe the story as it is written. Have the medics who arrived to do the "transporting" of the mom to the hospital ... notice the toddler all by himself?

As told, this story computes better in Oslo, than it does, here.

Shanna said...

He was convicted, and spent weekends in jail for 6 months.

I’m amazed that he did jail time for that. (and that you can do weekend jail time. Strange).

He had no defense at all. He still doesn't know why she targeted him.

The thing is, if the justice system would work properly they would require substantial evidence to prove any crime. There are certain types of crime that are difficult to prove, like date rape and molestation. We seem to be abandoning some of our standards of proof in these cases I think this is at the heart of the problem.

I still think people are massively overestimating the amount of danger there is in helping a child in the park, though.

The Crack Emcee said...

"What is wrong with people?"

How often have I asked that with not a peep out of you? I have video of a baby wandering around the ghettos of Philly at, like, 6AM but you never said anything. (I don't feel like trying to find it, right now, so you'll have to settle for Things That Shouldn't Be Happening (But They Are)...) I write all-the-time about shit that shouldn't be happening - nothing. There's sometimes even laughter, even from you, because you enjoy deviancy.

Did you ever do a post on Dave Chappelle's "baby on the corner" bit? Did you ever consider there are black babies wandering all over this place? Where's the outrage? Where's the concern? "A toddler was found wandering alone in Battery Park City,..." I was born alone and have been, practically, wandering that way my whole life.

That you just noticed such a thing is a problem is kind of a punch-line.

edutcher said...

The post seems to go with the one about the woman falsely accused.

Are the Gotham cops really that dumb? Is it like the Longshoreman's Union where membership is handed down to friends and relatives?

As for kids alone, the way some "mothers" let their kids run wild, I give Ann, MadMan, and tradguy props for a big heart for at least being willing to look and ask.

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pogo said...

"I still think people are massively overestimating the amount of danger there is in helping a child in the park, though."

I would still help.

But I don't know if I am under or overestimating.

Men learned this avoidance from women and TV and the police.
Congratulations; we're trainable, and you won.

bagoh20 said...

Crack, We are White people. We thought a Black child running around loose in the hood is the way you people do it. Besides we don't go down there, so we don't see no Black babies running around. You need to talk to your people about that. And I imagine I would get the same appreciation picking up a Black kid in the hood as you would picking up a White one in the suburbs. Even if we joined forces to help a Hispanic kid in east L.A., we would still get our asses kicked.

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
1charlie2 said...

We get the society we choose. And this is what we, the body public, chose.

If we, ALL of us, allow the injustices against (generally) men, those men will no longer intervene.

If we, ALL of us, allow the injustices against non-parental adults, those adults will no longer intervene.

You can have an emphasis on lawyers, or an emphasis on shared morals. Not both.

You can have an emphasis on individual liberty at all costs, or an emphasis on share morals. Not both.

We, as a culture, have chosen.

Heart_Collector said...

60Dicks said...
Trevon is now a ward of the state, merely cutting out the insane middle-woman. Who cares? It's not as though my tax bill will be reduced one bit, regardless of who cares for this little bastard.


Hes right its all about "HIM".

Keep correcting peoples english though.

p.s. much amusement at people who wont help a fucking baby wandering around but will be the first ones to cry outrage at what happens to children on the other side of the world. Dick meet mouth.

wv: miesses - A princess to the mouse king.

The Crack Emcee said...

bagoh20,

Crack, We are White people. We thought a Black child running around loose in the hood is the way you people do it.

Naw, man, the way we do it is swinging from vines:

If anyone's feet touch the ground, there's a problem,...

Heart_Collector said...

What the FUCK is god going to say if after you die he sits you down and does a debrief with you on your life lol.

Do you ever wonder? If you dont, maybe you should start.

bagoh20 said...

"We, as a culture, have chosen."

I would hope we are still choosing, but it seems like the PC stuff never really reverses, regardless of how many of us rethink it and change our minds. A small vocal minority can keep it going and strong. The majority, even when right, is meek.

Heart_Collector said...

(In a booming eternity star nebulayic voice)

Sixty, THOU wouldnt help a stranded babe....

(God whispers aside to a aide, get a load of this guy)



wv-crali- A crabby Israeli?? =D

Bob Ellison said...

When I was about 22, I was playing basketball by myself on a hot day at an outdoor court at a public school. A couple of small girls, probably five and seven years of age, came up to me, the only person in sight, complaining that the younger one had suffered a bad cut on her hand. I offered to drive them home, and the older one showed me the way. As I drove, I decided that I should tell the girls to be cautious about asking young men for help like that.

It was a teaching moment, as they say, but more for me than for the girls. As a man in America, I'm very cautious about trying to help people. It's more important to help than to worry about what might come of it, but we have a cultural problem here that pushes helpers away.

Ann Althouse said...

"If he was found at 9:30 am that means most of the time he was lost was the middle of the night. That's sounds worse for the poor kid, but it explains why he wasn't found so quickly."

He was wondering at least all night, but he could have been lost all the previous day too. The only number we have is how long it took the cops to realize a child was alone outside in the city. We are not told the second number. It's 9 + ? hours.

Heart_Collector said...

If you don't help someone because you are afraid of the consequences... You never really do anything.

bagoh20 said...

"What the FUCK is god going to say if after you die he sits you down and does a debrief with you on your life "

Well personally, I intend that to be a two way conversation, and I have some questions of my own. He's got some explaining to do. It's gonna be tough love all over the place.

Ann Althouse said...

wondering...

wandering.

bagoh20 said...

"If you don't help someone because you are afraid of the consequences... You never really do anything."

I think most of us would of course help, but we are just venting about the risks being so high, and unreasonable for doing the right thing.

Pogo said...

I quit coaching soccer and basketball because of this bullshit.

What I hope women understand from the male responses here is how thoroughly we have absorbed the message that all men are potential rapists.

And by that we have modified our behavior, including being very circumspect about helping anyone.

I still do it, but if the optics are bad, I have to help by phone only.

Ann Althouse said...

"Also, you are underestimating the risk that a man takes getting involved in a situation like this...."

I think my mistake is using the word "man" to refer to these diminished humanoid entities.

The Crack Emcee said...

The vast majority of men are a threat to no one, but other men, but you wouldn't know that from watching The Lifetime Channel. Oprah never went out of her way to mention it. And you probably couldn't convince most of the Rebecca Watson's of the world of that fact for any amount of money in the world.

And then they have the nerve to tell me not to be angry, to get married, or some other nonsense that provides for me getting reamed by the very cluster-fuck they created.

Fuck all of that noise - I'm looking out for number One against THEM.

"Fool me once,..."

Heart_Collector said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shanna said...

We, as a culture, have chosen.

I don't think we have chosen. I think some people have chosen and messed it up for the rest of us. I may think it's awesome that you would help somebody in the park, but I can't make Susie not make a face or look accusing or call the cops.

bagoh20 said...

Naw, man, the way we do it is swinging from vines:

If anyone's feet touch the ground, there's a problem,..."


White people like that now too. We call it "zip line" and we charge each other money to do it. I've done it in Alaska and next week I'm going to Catalina to do it.

But let keep it on the down low. If the brothers find out, they will screw it up for us like they did with basketball.

Ann Althouse said...

"you grossly underestimate, the danger to men in such situations"

Have you heard about the men who go into battle in wars? In a world where men face real dangers with courage, are you not ashamed to express the fear of doing something about a lost baby?

"What the FUCK is god going to say if after you die he sits you down and does a debrief with you on your life lol. Do you ever wonder? If you dont, maybe you should start."

The presumption must be that these people do not believe in God (or in any sort of morality that stands in the place of God). I don't want to hear the protestations. You can fall to you knees and beg forgiveness in private if in fact you do believe.

Pogo said...

"If you don't help someone because you are afraid of the consequences... You never really do anything."

Oh, go screw. You don't know me.

I help and continue to do so.

But I comfort no one, ever.

I rely on "officials" when it would have been faster and smarter not to wait.

I avoid even being in situations where I might ever be alone with young people, so I can't help because I'm not there in the first place.

The culture is feminized and fucked up, and you have the gall to blame me for it?

As I said, go screw.

Heart_Collector said...

The point was maybe if you think that your going to ultimately be held accountable for your actions, even if its just a pretend exercise, you will realize some of your actions and your attitude could use adjusting. Maybe the moment of reflection helps you and you realize your behavior may be embarassing, or as I know yall like in Wisconsin.... Shameful.

rhhardin said...

I once rescued a wandering child. Two things were different - it was in the '70s, and I had my wife with me.

Child sexual abuse (pdf) hadn't been discovered until the 70s.

Child abuse hadn't been discovered until the 60s.

Discovered means discovered as having legs as a media eyeball attractor, which is what happened.

Neither was a "public problem" when I grew up, falling into personal moral failing instead.

Discovering and taking ownership of new public problems is a route to political power.

Heart_Collector said...

Pogo:

Oh, go screw. You don't know me.



Im sure your a great guy or girl or transgender or whatever, but you come off as a ME person.

Pogo said...

"In a world where men face real dangers with courage, are you not ashamed to express the fear of doing something about a lost baby?"

In a world where men face real dangers with courage, how messed up is it that men have to worry they might be branded a sex offender for the rest of their lives because they did something about a lost baby?

Recall the case in England awhile back, where a toddler drowned when a man saw it wandering off alone and did nothing?

I would agree we have created a race of uncourageous men.

And how do you think they were raised?

I intervene a lot, and oft against my better judgement, against fights and the lost and the wounded and the afraid and the clueless.

But I wonder about it the whole damned time.

Pogo said...

" you come off as a ME person"

Everyone is a ME person.

But Jesus.

bagoh20 said...

"are you not ashamed to express the fear of doing something about a lost baby?"

Oh Jesus, you do realize who's fault this is. Did you blame the war protesters for Saddam's atrocities, because they thought the risks were too high to go to war?

The people who create the dangerous unreasonable risks are the ones who need to be admonished - the lawyers, the state agencies, and the hysterical who empower them. It's the violators of constitutional protections who create this situation who you should be mad at. Or should we just martyr ourselves and shut up about it?

Shanna said...

In a world where men face real dangers with courage, how messed up is it that men have to worry they might be branded a sex offender for the rest of their lives because they did something about a lost baby?

Again, is their any reason to believe someone is going to be branded a sex offender because they help a child alone in the park? Seriously, has that ever actually happened?

Heart_Collector said...

Pogo:In a world where men face real dangers with courage, how messed up is it that men have to worry they might be branded a sex offender for the rest of their lives because they did something about a lost baby?
Love_Collector:In my world if you see someone or something that needs help you react. Why would you put fist to chin and spend all your time contemplating the what ifs? Why isnt your first instinct to go help the kid? What if I open my eyes today and I die...... Eyes... Wired... Shut...

Pogo said...

bagoh20, Heart_Collector wants you to know you come off as a ME person.

DaveW said...

I was at the library about a week ago, and the woman in line in front of me had 4 small children, one in a stroller. After she checked out I checked out and as I walked out the door she came running back inside for some reason.

She left the baby in the stroller on a sloping sidewalk and the stroller was starting to roll away, so I ran up in front of it and stuck my foot in front of the front wheel so it wouldn't roll off the curb. When she came out she look at me as if I were a masher or something and grabbed her kids and took off.

Just a harried mother that made a mistake. But don't be misled into thinking help from unknown men is welcome. I mean, all I did was keep her baby from rolling out into the driveway traffic.

You should have seen the way she looked at me. I don't know if it was because she realized what she had done and felt guilty, or if she thought I was trying to do something to her and her kids - at the library. She certainly didn't thank me.

I walked away feeling like crap.

Heart_Collector said...

DaveW:Just a harried mother that made a mistake. But don't be misled into thinking help from unknown men is welcome.

Collector:Fast foward to waking up in a cold sweat every night as your night terror of watching that baby cariage roll into traffic and get mashed and know that all you had to do was stop it.

Maybe you help people to fucking help people and not because you expect a emotional pay off of thanks or physical rewards. Maybe the reward is knowing something bad didnt happen because of your actions.

Mitch H. said...

The office manager here at work was driving in one morning, down the main drag of a little mountain-side town, when she saw a toddler in nothing but a diaper wobbling along the side of the road. She got out & got the kid out of traffic, and then called friends until she found somebody who knew somebody in Child Protective Services. She was infuriated that so many cars had passed the kid by the side of the road before she stopped... It happens even up here in the civilized hills. Just usually, it's because the mother's out of her gourd on drugs, not because the cops hauled her away & didn't bother to check on her kids.

Pogo said...

" Seriously, has that ever actually happened?"

Custodian falsely accused of child rape sues city for $10M
BY NANCIE L. KATZ
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Sunday, September 16th 2007

"Francis Evelyn looks at the world differently now ever since he was falsely accused of raping an 8-year-old child.

Brooklyn school custodian Francis Evelyn once walked proud, worked hard and looked forward to a peaceful retirement.

Now he's too scared to go out his front door.

Five months after his face was broadcast worldwide as an accused child rapist, Evelyn, 58, can't sleep. He can't stop the tears. He can't wipe away the nightmare of being arrested, jailed and wrongly accused.

Berated by cops, taunted by Rikers Island inmates and branded in his native Trinidad, the dignified, law-abiding immigrant has filed a $10 million claim against the city for ruining his life by believing a troubled child with a history of lying.

"Before, I walked the street happy-go-lucky," Evelyn said at his East Flatbush home. "Now, you see the eyes. People you don't know approach you. You don't know what they're coming with. It could be bad. I'm scared like hell of being out there!"

Evelyn was cleaning the halls of Public School 91 in Wingate on March 19, just as he had done for nearly 20 years, when cops dragged him out in handcuffs.

An 8-year-old girl claimed that for weeks he repeatedly molested her in a basement bathroom.

The school's respected principal, Solomon Long, was suspended for failing to report other allegations by the girl, which he believed to be unfounded. Long was later reinstated.

Evelyn was paraded before television cameras and spent two days at Rikers before prosecutors - in a nearly unprecedented move - rushed to a night judge to drop the charges.

The child, who also wrongly accused her father of rape, had no signs of physical assault, and initially identified her alleged assailant as bald and white.

Evelyn is black.

He said cops grilled him for hours, lying about fake DNA tests to try to force a confession, and offering to cut him a short prison term instead of life if he admitted guilt.

Thrown into a jail cell with seasoned criminals, Evelyn stood with his back to a wall all night, praying, as fellow inmates greeted each other and unabashedly used an open toilet.

He was strip-searched and left to sleep on a bare mattress in a filthy cell wearing only a "Pampers," and paraded past inmates who screamed, "Hey, Pops! You raped my sister! I'm going to cut your throat! Don't let me catch you in the shower! We gonna shank you!
"

bagoh20 said...

I don't think women understand this danger. They imagine that they could just tell if a man was innocent of such charges, and everyone else would agree and absolve him. They don't. They destroy him, his marriage, his family, his life, and they don't even apologize afterward. You show your either your ignorance or your insensitivity by minimizing this.

OK, I'm done with my rant. I'm going out into the world now to risk it all. If I see a lost kid, I'll consider all we've discussed here before acting. Anybody know a good defense lawyer?

Shanna said...

I walked away feeling like crap.

Obviously you shouldn't feel bad about that, that lady was an idiot. But I don't know how we can stop people from making mean faces and I dont' think it should be enough to drive someone away from helping a small child in a dangerous situation. People are jerks with no manners in a lot of areas.

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do because it's right, even if nobody thanks you. Obviously you did and you are to be commended for it, even if it's not by the right person.

Heart_Collector said...

"Que picture of a single green beautiful leaf on a forest floor bathed in a single ray of sunlight breaking through the upper leaf scapes as a gentle breeze blows and Meade snaps a picture capturing in detail all the little ants that are actually working on the leaf it self and the surronding area"

Hand in Hand Cafe~ You can help all you want.

Shanna said...

" Seriously, has that ever actually happened?"

Custodian falsely accused of child rape sues city for $10M


Yes, people have been falsely accused of rape and molestation, I'm just saying I dont' think I've seen it in a situation like the one referenced above. In a lone toddler wandering in a park situation. I think the concerns about helping in that situation are misplaced, and an admittedly awful story about a janitor being falsely accused is not the same thing.

Heart_Collector said...

Would any of us really hesitate to actually prevent a possible toddler / baby death because of a possible outcome that results negatively on your reputation or punishment?

Worst case scenario, I would rather head to death row and be tortoured by the prison system for the 20 years before this happens before I would accept the fact that some kid is dead because of my failure to act.

I would find that maybe the life I get in return for worrying to the point of inaction would not be worth living.

The Crack Emcee said...

Ann,

Have you heard about the men who go into battle in wars? In a world where men face real dangers with courage, are you not ashamed to express the fear of doing something about a lost baby?

That's an insane lie. Men in war have guns, grenades, etc., and they can shoot back. You and your feminist buddies have stripped civilian men of almost every defense they have without resorting to extremes. (As my wife's lawyer said during my divorce/restraining order hearing: "We didn't think he was going to fight like THIS!") None of this nonsense is necessary, and it's just like you to suggest we stick our necks into the croc's mouth because you and your "sisters" aren't doing the job of raising kids without fathers like you wanted.

Sorry, but "fuck you" on that one.

The CD Spot said...

Things happen that we don't understand and there are reasons behinde them. This mother loves her son and was very sane up until this incident and now she is getting the help she needs but unfortunately my nephew had to suffer through this. You never know what could happen to you.

Trapper Townshend said...

This whole discussion is playing out exactly like the section in Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind about the feminist project.

"Abstract moralism condemns certain keystones, removes them, and then blames both the nature of the stones and the structure when it collapses."

"It is indeed possible to soften men, but to make them "care" is another thing, and the project must inevitably fail. In an age of individualism, people of either sex cannot be forced to become public-spirited, particularly by those who are becoming less so."

If you're really disappointed with the boys of today's age, so inferior to the men of previous generations, then that might be an implicit argument for the cultural mores of that previous time period and its understanding of the sexes. As opposed to, say, feminism. Isn't it conservative to look at the consequences of things and to evaluate or re-evaluate based on them?

Bob Ellison said...

"I don't think women understand this danger."

Yes. Spare us the "just be a real man" and "oh, puh-leeze, as if" comments. Women all look like innocent nurses before society; men, like raping thugs. This changes behavior, as Pogo noted.

How's about we start calling women "hysterical" again every time they rise up? That would be a balanced response.

Pogo said...

In his case he was literally doing nothing.

I myself got yelled at by a woman whose kid wandered off and I corralled him back to the swing set where he thought he saw her last.

She grabbed him away and started yelling at me, what did I think I was doing, etc, and 'did you touch him', and saying she was calling the cops.

I launched into her in a goddamned tirade about almost losing her kid and suing her for false report and getting CPS in her ass.

So it has happened, once that I know of.

Ken said...

Ann Althouse presumptuously relied to me:
"you grossly underestimate, the danger to men in such situations"

Have you heard about the men who go into battle in wars? In a world where men face real dangers with courage, are you not ashamed to express the fear of doing something about a lost baby?

Presumptuous because I HAVE approached children is such situations. And neither my doing so nor Althouse's ignorant cheap shot change the fact that it IS dangerous.

Trapper Townshend said...

Shanna, are you aware of the daycare sex abuse hysteria of the 1980s and 1990s?

Yes, I hear your protestations -- that was a few decades ago, it involved men and women, and the small children were in the care of the accused people, rather than encountering them randomly.

But I think that kind of hysteria is indicative. People's lives were destroyed. On the most completely absurd, laughable, made-up-Satanic-ritual charges. Some of the men who were put in jail for these completely false crimes only just recently got out. People are hysterical about this kind of thing, and the hysteria has real consequences.

It may be true that nowadays people are less likely to be *convicted* on such charges, but all it takes is the accusation. You'll lose your job, you'll have to move away, and your name will be ruined.

Professor Althouse believes that men, who have faced death in horrible wars, should just deal with this. But wishes do not give birth to horses. A man with a family of his own, that he must care for, will not make the decision Prof. Althouse wants him to make every time. And, indeed, a man who has a Wall Street job and no responsibilities whatsoever probably won't make that decision every time either. If men back in the day were men, why aren't they now? Maybe that was the question Prof. Althouse was asking when she asked "What is wrong with people?"

The Crack Emcee said...

Pogo,

I launched into her in a goddamned tirade about almost losing her kid and suing her for false report and getting CPS in her ass.

Just as I said, you've got to go to extreme measures to get them to act like decent people themselves, if only out of the fear you'll hurt them - which is an ironic situation for them to have created, right?

Not really, when you consider Ann thinks our lives should be like war, picking up the pieces for inattentive women, while she and her "sisters" live their carefree lives, screwing up however the fuck they want on their way to the psychic's lair for another fortunetelling session.

Ken said...

CrackEmcee said it better than I did Ann. Seek out his post and follow his directions.

Shanna said...

the small children were in the care of the accused people, rather than encountering them randomly.

Well, yes. I know those kinds of things happen and it's awful. I never said otherwise.

I am talking about this kind of case.

I launched into her in a goddamned tirade about almost losing her kid and suing her for false report and getting CPS in her ass.

Good for you. As I said, some people are assholes. Do you think she would really have called the cops or was she just griping? Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should act like that, but I haven't heard of any specific case where someone was convicted of anything in such a situation. Or even arrested.

MikeinAppalachia said...

"Have you heard about the men who go into battle in wars? In a world where men face real dangers with courage, are you not ashamed to express the fear of doing something about a lost baby?"

Not in the least. In combat, I could shoot back, take cover, and (usually) count on the support of others. If accused of any type of improper conduct toward a child or woman, there is no shooting back, no cover, and the only support will be from life-long friends and even some of them will have doubts.
Now, if the situation is that of an evidently unwatched child climbing unimpeded on the railing above Niagara Falls; yeah, I would (and did) take action. But if it is the case of a toddler who appears to be lost, unattended, whatever-the most I would now do is call or contact the police or on-site security.
The "war" and "helpful" situations are not remotely comparable.

JoeNik said...

"Yes, people have been falsely accused of rape and molestation, I'm just saying I dont' think I've seen it in a situation like the one referenced above. In a lone toddler wandering in a park situation. I think the concerns about helping in that situation are misplaced, and an admittedly awful story about a janitor being falsely accused is not the same thing."

I used to live in a small town in New Hampshire. One day a man driving to the airport saw a neighbor's kid wandering alone a distance from where he knew she lived. He drove up to her and asked if she was lost and needed a ride home. She said she was OK so he left on his trip.

The girl told her mother about the "strange man" who approached her. The entire town including the schools went into lock-down while the police searched for the man.

After several days the man returned from his trip and after realizing that he was the man everyone was searching for, he went to the police and told his story. While no charges were filed, The police issued a statement saying that in their opinion the mother and child were correct raise the alarm and that man should have known not to approach the child.

Just to be clear, the police completely believed the man and noted in their statement that the whole incident had been a misunderstanding.

Trooper York said...

I would never approach a child I did not know. You can enlist a woman to do that or call the police but is as far as it goes.

This is the world that feminazi's and political correctness have wrought.

Trooper York said...

I mean you can't even talk to a chick in an elevator for crying out loud.

Ken said...

I want to emphasize what has happened in this thread. Althouse asked a question: "What is wrong with people?" And then proceeded to insult those who provided answers.

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

That's what she does dude. She wants us all to act on feminist principles and we react to it she can't understand it.

Feminists are crazy people.

The Crack Emcee said...

Ken,

I want to emphasize what has happened in this thread. Althouse asked a question: "What is wrong with people?" And then proceeded to insult those who provided answers.

It's called "feminism," dude, shut up. Just smile and play along, until she says, "Meade agrees with me." Then, when she smugly walks away, meet us over at my place for a good stiff drink and a laugh.

Oligonicella said...

"Have you heard about the men who go into battle in wars? In a world where men face real dangers with courage, are you not ashamed to express the fear of doing something about a lost baby?"

Since your standard is men who face 'real dangers' with courage and hold that in front of other men as if it should shame them, I would point out that women are therefore severely lacking in courage as registration is open for both sexes.

And since the discussion is of men in general, it should be pointed out that men more often take risks, both financial and physical than women will.

This implies that the men are better at risk evaluation as pertains to dangers of the 'real' variety and so would make a wiser decision than a woman in the same circumstance.

You question their reasoning why?

jamboree said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sayyid said...

Probability of accusation of child molestation times the magnitude of bad stuff that happens, minus probability of nothing bad happening times the amount of good feeling for helping out (including how bad you'll feel for not helping if you don't). If the number if positive, the rational choice is not to help out the child in need. Add to that equation the fact that people are risk-averse and you have an even bigger problem.

Incentives matter.

Shanna said...

And since the discussion is of men in general, it should be pointed out that men more often take risks, both financial and physical than women will.

This implies that the men are better at risk evaluation


Not necessarily. Just because you take more risks doesn’t mean they all worked out.

High Risk/High reward means a lot of people crap out.

ken in sc said...

Ann, I am not afraid of physical danger. I am prepared to defend my home and my family with my life. I am retired military. However, I have been on the losing side of several court cases involving divorce and child custody disputes. No amount of truth or courage can prevail in a system that is so strongly prejudiced against men. Today I would not compromise myself with a woman or a child by being in the same place alone with them, ever. It is not cowardice, it is discretion.

Ken said...

Althouse has been blogging up a storm. She has however studiously ignored the objections to her rudeness and conclusion jumping.

Trooper York said...

Her rudeness is her charm dude.

Sabinal said...

this issue is not new. If I blame anyone, I would blame the media. THEY are the ones in attempt to keep their paychecks creating nefarious criminals before they are deemed so under the law. Look at Casey Anthony -- like she is the only (possible) child killer.

I'm a feminist and want more male nurses and child caretakers to truly bring back trust and equality of the sexes. But you guys are pulling the very same stuff you condemn the Lifetime channel (which I despise) for - whining about being victims.

So you would let a child die or get kidnapped by a real scumbag because you don't want to be accused? How would you sleep at night?

And where in the world did Ann condemn y'all. If you hate her website so much, leave. You don't have to be here

Pogo said...

Sabinal,

Since it is clear you haven't bothered to read the many posts above which directly answer your concern (except the strawman question you asked), why should anyone respond?

Harold said...

The last time I helped out any kid was winter 1994, when I saw a teenage girl on crutches headed home. In 2 feet of snow. Recognized her from the neighborhood. She accepted a ride from me because I had Chief's anchors on. Like her dad. And, she had seen me around the neighborhood, also. It was in military housing. Lots of other people, even ones who knew her, passed her by. Fear. It is a factor.

Would I do that today in Civlant? Hell, no. Quote from another:

"As for the child molestation accusation risk for men, just how risk adverse do you want to be? A kid is lost or otherwise in trouble. Just step in and help the kid. It's your moral duty. You can do it in a way that won't get you in trouble, if you have any common sense."

My moral duty is to remain available for my own children. Helping random kids in trouble jeopordizes that. The most I'll do is call 911. Exceptions made for drowning, arterial bleeding, and other life threatening situations. I'm very risk adverse.

I'm a Boy Scout leader also. Scouts practice two deep leadership to protect from false allegations. Cannot ever be alone with an underage boy not your own; must always be another adult present. Had one kid who came into the troop whose parents I had previously had problems with. Told the other leaders they could deal with him; I wasn't exposing myself to charges. Reality of life today. He was in for less than a year.

All of us white married middle class middle aged males with children, the ones statistically least likely to engage in child molestation, live in constant fear of false accusations. It's why I didn't even consider the "troops to teachers" program upon getting out of the Navy. Safer to be underwater at 20 knots in an uncharted area of ocean then to be a teacher.

The Crack Emcee said...

Sabinal,

So you would let a child die or get kidnapped by a real scumbag because you don't want to be accused? How would you sleep at night?

Not well, but it would be in my own bed, and not a jail cell crying I'm innocent.

Look, until somebody changes the society that says I am whatever feminists say I am, they're on their own - and their kids, too. No amount of "Look in your heart" BS can wipe away the hard-won lessons I've learned about the need to protect myself. Feminism plays for keeps:

So will I.

Quaestor said...

Have you heard about the men who go into battle in wars? In a world where men face real dangers with courage...

A man who is wounded or dies in battle gains honor. How many men charged with molestation retain their honor?

Heart_Collector said...

I think the majority of the guys in this thread have man guilt. I behave how I want and If I want to save a fucking kid I would do it, the last thing on my mind would be omg what would the femenists say.

You dont like it lock me up or put a bullet in my head.

wv-droofi- Some of your excuses on not helping a child in need are FUCKING droofi.

Heart_Collector said...

"How many men charged with molestation retain their honor?"

Who gives a fuck about everyones opinion...

Honor is internal.

Pogo said...

Wow, that HC, what a he-man concern troll.

Freeman Hunt said...

In this case my guess is that no one saw him in the dark, but I'm not familiar with the area.

You people are all too afraid. I would not hesitate to help. You go up to the kid, and ask if he's lost. You stay with him or her 'til help arrives. It's not that hard.

I agree.

My husband once found a toddler in the middle of the road. He had quite a time figuring out where the child had come from, but he did it.

I'd have been ashamed to be his wife if his story had been that he'd driven on by or watched the child play in the street from a safe distance.

It is exceedingly rare that a total stranger will be out to get you.

Freeman Hunt said...

Some of you act like being falsely accused of child abuse in this situation is likely. You are probably more likely to be stabbed in the back for your wallet while walking past the park. More likely to be struck by lightning while passing the park.

As for women you've met before who are jackasses, that should hardly be a surprise. Lots of people are jackasses. Tell them off or ignore them.

Freeman Hunt said...

I'm glad the many men who help out at our church's Sunday school aren't so risk averse. It's great for the kids to have so many adults of both sexes involved in their religious formation.

Pogo said...

I find it curious how very differently the men posting here have -on average- approached this question, compared to how the women have spoken of it.

The men, by and large, perform a calculus of risk, to the child and to themselves/their family. So the answer is "It depends...."

The women don't seem aware of it, if not dismissive of it outright.

Freeman's example is an easy one; low risk to the man, high risk to the very small child. A no-brainer.

Make the lost kid 7 or say 11 years old, the neighborhood unfamiliar, or at the mall, and the equation get far more difficult.

Pogo said...

Freeman, if it were only jackassed females, who would care?

We're talking about prison and job loss. I've never met anyone struck by lightning, but I know several men who've been accused of sexual harassment at work, a math teacher falsely accused by two teenage girls who got fired (and they recanted 15 years later), and one guy who went to jail on a false accusation (see above).

I am glad you live among good people, but I live in Minnesota.

Freeman Hunt said...

We're talking about prison and job loss. I've never met anyone struck by lightning, but I know several men who've been accused of sexual harassment at work, a math teacher falsely accused by two teenage girls who got fired (and they recanted 15 years later), and one guy who went to jail on a false accusation (see above).

None of those people sound as though they were accused by total strangers. That's the stuff of regular, vindictive human grudges.

We're talking lost three year old in a park at night.

Quaestor said...

Heart_Collector wrote:
Who gives a fuck about everyones opinion... Honor is internal.

Bullshit. Before pontificating with such authority try living with public disgrace for half a lifetime, then you can report back about how honor is purely internal.

Quaestor said...

Or are you speaking from personal experience? Heart_Collector, hmmmm, sounds like a chatroom ID Chris Hansen might find intriguing.

bagoh20 said...

Imagine it's 1932. A young black man comes across a white teenage girl lying in the grass with her clothes torn off who has obviously been assaulted. Would you advise him to go physically help her, get someone else to help her or to run away?

Why can a woman help that toddler without fear and a man has to risk everything, even though most child abuse is perpetrated by women?

Women are mostly blind to their sexism, as are Blacks to their own racism, and gays to their own intolerance.

Being a white, straight male, I've been washed of my crap by everyone else's spittle.

Edgehopper said...

He was alone for 9 hours and picked up at 9:30 AM, which means his mom was picked up shortly after midnight. That part of Battery Park City is not very heavy traffic at night on a weekday; I wouldn't have expected anyone to walk by. And he was in a park in a very safe neighborhood, so the few people walking by might have assumed that the mom just stepped away for a second. No news here, really.

Freeman Hunt said...

Imagine it's 1932. A young black man comes across a white teenage girl lying in the grass with her clothes torn off who has obviously been assaulted. Would you advise him to go physically help her, get someone else to help her or to run away?

I would advise him to throw her his shirt so that she could cover up while telling her that he was running to get the police. It would be risky, but you cannot just run away from someone like that and live with any honor.

Also, men in 2011 are equivalent to blacks in 1932? Please.

I love you guys, but I think you're being nutty about this.

bagoh20 said...

Of course we would help rather than just leave him. But, we have to consider all this shit and it would lead us to try and find another way, because just doing the right thing is no protection anymore...for some of us.

Face it - being a man is being a suspect first. That used to be true only in dark alleys, but now it's all of us: a teacher, a bus driver, or a polite man in an elevator. Being an upstanding citizen means nothing once the charge is made.

bagoh20 said...

"Also, men in 2011 are equivalent to blacks in 1932? Please."

Your advice would likely get him killed, so of course it's not the same.

The point, which you miss, is that the jumping to conclusion, and the assumed guilt are similar because they are due to no other reason than the way the good Samaritan (suspect) was born.

bagoh20 said...

You don't appreciate this because I don't think there is anything analogous to this for women, unless they live in Saudi Arabia.

Nate Whilk said...

Ann Althouse said, In a world where men face real dangers with courage, are you not ashamed to express the fear of doing something about a lost baby?

VERY cheap shot from someone who, as you yourself admit, would suffer no consequences from helping a lost child and was never at any risk of being drafted. I would've thought that was beneath you. Apparently not.

And you would avoid an elevator that contained only one man.

I am truly disgusted.

And what The Crack Emcee wrote at 7/26/11 11:27 AM.

Freeman Hunt said, Some of you act like being falsely accused of child abuse in this situation is likely. You are probably more likely to be stabbed in the back for your wallet while walking past the park. More likely to be struck by lightning while passing the park.

Do you have ANY statistics on that? Seriously. What percent of men who help are legally or otherwise accused of improprieties? If not, go jump in the lake.

Sabinal said, I'm a feminist and want more male nurses and child caretakers to truly bring back trust and equality of the sexes. But you guys are pulling the very same stuff you condemn the Lifetime channel (which I despise) for - whining about being victims.

Yeah, we shouldn't whine about the possibility of being imprisoned merely on someone's suspicion. We see the writing on the wall in colleges where a man can be expelled "on the preponderance of evidence", which probably amounts to a woman's accusation and being a man. GO TO HELL.

Listen, you IDIOT, what you SAY you want and what your policies actually produce are two different things. I see that, despite feminism, women wanting it both ways has not changed one iota in decades.

So you would let a child die or get kidnapped by a real scumbag because you don't want to be accused? How would you sleep at night?

FYI, I have helped lost children on two occasions. But I can tell you I was very nervous about it, and I wouldn't have done it if there was anyone else around.

But I bet you go to sleep at night feeling really smug, KNOWING men can be accused both for intervening and NOT intervening. YOU and your fellow feminists have DELIBERATELY set this double-bind up yourselves, and what's been said to Althouse goes DOUBLE for you. GO TO HELL.

Mickey said...

I've been there. I'd say nine hours is about right. There are all kinds of people walking around. Tourist groups waiting for the ferry to the Statue of Liberty, groups of school kids on a field trip. Thank goodness he was found at all.

bagoh20 said...

Some of us seem pretty hot about this, but this is why:

Good men spend their whole lives fighting their own nature and it's not easy or ever completely won. We know how dark our other side is, and women really don't understand the depths of male sexuality. Women can't even imagine it.

When we are accused of this, we have no way to effectively fight back. We don't just get accused of being a criminal, we are being called and seen by our family, friends and society as a disgusting animal devoid of any virtue we could ever need to feel decent. We aren't just wrong or trespassers or thieves, we are beasts deserving to lose everything afforded the most low among us. We don't even deserve our own families, or to live among other people. We are unforgivable and deserving of no pity whatsoever.

That's entirely appropriate, but we would prefer a little due process first, and we know we won't get it.

poppa india said...

A lot of women armchair generals here, telling the troops on the front lines they have nothing to fear.

The Crack Emcee said...

Freeman Hunt,

I would advise him to throw her his shirt so that she could cover up while telling her that he was running to get the police.

Now he's charged with a crime - great. You don't get it:

This shit only has to happen to you once for the message to be made clear - you are a slave. The shit my wife put me through was based on NOTHING and consumed my life for almost a year - and she had total support from everyone in it.

Since then I have been accused of sexual harassment, twice, because some woman didn't like my politics - lost my job both times. I have seen people act out in the most outrageous ways - because I'm a Republican - it boggles the mind.

Sorry, Freeman, but I think it's you who are underestimating the extremity of the situation.

The Crack Emcee said...

My life is now split in two parts:

The days when I would go out of my way to help others and, now, when I will not.

Sure, if the opportunity presents itself in some way that I could help, I will, but typically, today, I look away - I don't need it.

You can claim, all day, that it is I who have become cold hearted, but I don't see it that way at all:

Society itself has become a sort of prison, and you are a warden.

Freeman Hunt said...

When my husband came home tonight I said, "Thought experiment. You are driving past a park at about 1AM. You see a three year old in the park who appears to be alone. What do you do?"

He looked at me like I had lost my mind.

"Well, what do you do?"
"You get out of the car!"
"And then?"
"You go help the child! How is that a thought experiment?! What are you talking about?!"
"Some people say they'd be afraid that a crazy person might try to accuse them of abusing the child if they helped."

He rolled his eyes and started eating dinner.

rhhardin said...

Good men spend their whole lives fighting their own nature and it's not easy or ever completely won. We know how dark our other side is, and women really don't understand the depths of male sexuality.

That doesn't have anything to do with child molesting, which is not normal male sexuality and not a temptation.

The connection is rather a mistake by females who do know about the males and sex with respect to women, but jump to a soap opera episode for the rest.

The mistake has legs in the media, and that's why it's pervasive. Soap opera women, who are the audience, like it.

It explains that male interest in women is essentially evil and that's why women don't and shouldn't want sex as much as the males. The women are off the hook.

But male interest in women isn't essentially evil. If anything, it works to the advantage of women and the disadvantage of men.

Unless the guy gets what he actually wants, a regular show that the woman is satisfied with him.

A nag or a bitch doesn't want to give that. She will prefer child abuse hysteria and its implications to cover herself to herself; and she votes.

Synova said...

I think that it took nine hours for the Police to realize they'd taken the child's mother because that's how long it took them to figure out who the kid was AFTER someone called them and the child was "found."

Synova said...

And does everyone recall the kid that was lost in the forest someplace or other for three days and when they finally found him they found out that he'd seen rescue parties twice and hid from them?

Stranger danger!

The kid may have died from exposure, all because it was so very very important to make sure he saw all strangers as people who would hurt him.

And yes, this is the world we have wrought.

Pogo said...

Freeman, no one was still arguing the case about the toddler in Battery Park.

The comments went far afield, centering instead on the idea that men have to be very careful about helping women and children.

Freeman Hunt said...

Pogo, yes people are arguing about that. They're saying that you should find a woman first or watch from afar and call 911.

Pogo said...

Then I'm wrong.

Freeman Hunt said...

Do you have ANY statistics on that? Seriously. What percent of men who help are legally or otherwise accused of improprieties? If not, go jump in the lake.

Do you? You're the one arguing that men should be afraid to help children. You back it up.

Any stats on how many people have been falsely accused of crimes against children by total strangers whose children they were trying to help?

bagoh20 said...

"They're saying that you should find a woman first or watch from afar and call 911."

As opposed to what, taking him away in my car? You think this is reasonable, or smarter than calling 911 and getting a nearby woman to help? I just pick up a strange kid in the park and take him away? You really don't understand.

You know why the kid is there, but I wouldn't. Maybe he was abducted and dropped there. How do I explain having him now? Maybe his mother is unconscious in the bushes. I take the kid?

I'm still saving the kid by doing it the smart way, I'm just not acting like a woman and running and picking him up in my arms. You can do that, I can't. I really wish I could. I wish we were equal in the eyes of the law.

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Crack Emcee said...

Freeman, you and your husband are me before the rules were laid out. I know I'm changing the thread topic to make a point but try this thought experiment on the old man:

If you learned I emptied all the bank accounts, charged you with spousal abuse, got my girlfriends to lie and back me up on it, plus deceive you about my whereabouts - and then you had the power of the state come down upon you based on nothing but those lies - do you think you would trust the perspective of women again?

Anything less than an enthusiastic "Yes!" means you lose.

Now, you may say, "But Crack, yours is an extreme example,..." to which I will say, no, it's not - it happened. And the laws, and culture, are set up in such a way to ensure it will happen - all someone has to do is get the idea in their head to set the wheels in motion. And once it happens to you (and I hope it never does) it will imprint on you a lesson you will never forget and always look out for.

You can pooh-pooh the contours of this evil all you want, but it is real, and the perspectives around children are included in it. Just because your husband hasn't had it fall upon him (and, again, I hope it never does) is no reason to deny it's existence or power. As I said:

It only has to happen once.

One more thing, which should make the parameters clear:

His being married - merely having a woman in his life - is great protection for him.

bagoh20 said...

"That doesn't have anything to do with child molesting, which is not normal male sexuality and not a temptation."

Oh OK. Then this is even more unfair than I thought. The temptation is not normal. That should ease your worries, ladies.

bagoh20 said...

Imagine Freeman, that your husband did what he said he would, and that child was one who had been abducted, abused and dropped there. Your husband has no alibi, because he was just driving around town and stopped at the park to read for an hour.

Your family is about to be sent through the ringer at great expense to your bank account, friend account, business relationships, and reputation. Your kids will be taunted, and may even question what kind of man their dad really is. Everyone you know will be talking about it, and the suspicions will grow. Just because he didn't call 911 or get a woman to help as part of helping that toddler.

Maybe you two should talk about this some more.

The Crack Emcee said...

I think "stranger than fiction" is the operative phrase here.

Trooper York said...

Only a fool would act in any other way than involving a woman or several women or keeping the kid in sight and calling 911.

That is the only reasonable response.

Trooper York said...

One thing that Crack, bagoh20, Pogo and me have in common is that we don't scare easy.

But we ain't stupid either.

Trooper York said...

This is the world that lawyers and feminists have wrought. Enjoy.

Wayne-o said...

Freeman,

I'm a long time reader here and I love you and AA to death but you and the other ladies here have just stumbled into a ditch separating men and women modern life.

I'm with Trooper, and it sounds rather insane to me that a man, (alone) would approach a lost child without first notifying some authority--staff, management, security, law enforcement, etc.

The real irony is that you and AA don't seem to realize that by assuming the worst of the men here who have urged caution, you're doing the very thing that made them gun-shy in the first place.

Gary Rosen said...

" you and the other ladies here have just stumbled into a ditch separating men and women modern life."

Kinda like calling the Grand Canyon a "rut".

Pogo said...

How very strange.

On our usual walk last night, my wife and I came a cross a search for a lost child, a 12 year old autistic-retarded boy.

One man finally saw the kid swimming in the little river by the park. I saw him, and so did one other guy. He was having fun, not drowning.

We called the cops. No one went in to get him. He wasn't in danger.

We waited there at a distance until the cops came, who coaxed him out, and mom came running.

This is what happens in real life. Men walk around, eager to help, but leery as hell of the consequences of doing so.

Almost Ali said...

The night I was a hero:

It started in a Wal-Mart parking lot. A 7-year old girl couldn't find her mother or siblings. Apparently they had left her sleeping in their van, in the dark, alone. She woke up, terrified. Kids have big imaginations, and even bigger nightmares.

The girl was hysterical, I was the only one within earshot. I suggested we go into the store to look for her mother. She agreed. Once inside, I left her with a store supervisor who in turn made an announcement on the PA system.

About 20 minutes later as I turned a corner at a far end of the store, there she was - happily with her mother and sisters and brothers. But it was the smile on her mother's face and the look in the girl's eyes I'll not forget - as if "I" was the hero sent to save her.

The Crack Emcee said...

About 20 minutes later as I turned a corner at a far end of the store, there she was - happily with her mother and sisters and brothers. But it was the smile on her mother's face and the look in the girl's eyes I'll not forget - as if "I" was the hero sent to save her.

Well, dude, if you're dressed like a fucking knight,...

grackle said...

I believe most men would assist a child who seemed in immediate physical danger. But caution must always be used if at all possible if the kid is just wandering around. Men also have an obligation to their own family and friends, and to themselves, to protect themselves. I don’t believe it indicates cowardice to want to be cautious.

When my husband came home tonight I said, "Thought experiment. You are driving past a park at about 1AM. You see a three year old in the park who appears to be alone. What do you do?"

And the commentor’s hubbie had another simultaneous “thought experiment,” that she didn’t know about:

“I know her and know what she wants me to say. Hmm … do I want sex this month? Yeah, I think I do.”

Tiny Bunch said...

The only woman I know who understands this is Helen Smith

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/

The Crack Emcee said...

Tiny Bunch,

The only woman I know who understands this is Helen Smith

True, but there are others. Christina Hoff Sommers comes to mind,...

Almost Ali said...

Well, dude, if you're dressed like a fucking knight,...

On the knight in question he was dressed in shorts, thank you. But even in shorts he's always on duty.