June 17, 2011

Who does the the University of Montana School of Law think it is?

It can't be upholding low standards, because if you have low standards, more people get in. Is this like those employers who give you an IQ test and if you score too high you don't get the job? I'm sorry, professor, you're too good to have emeritus status at our miserable little law school.

118 comments:

nevadabob said...

Just liberals letting everyone know they still own higher education.

Until Republicans defund the teacher-industrial complex, this sort of blatant bias will continue.

Sad fact is that Republicans make billions of dollars raping college students on high-interest college loan debt that can never, ever be discharged. It's guaranteed debt enforced by the jackboot thugs of the IRS.

So, expect liberals to continue to control our colleges and universities.

Fred4Pres said...

I suspect these faculty members who voted against status for this professor were being less than macho.

And as you know, being macho is a good thing (although it tends to frighten the betas and excite the women).

Seeing Red said...

I thought the president's favorite terrorist was denied that title as well?

Fred4Pres said...

"Although" is not needed above. My bad.

rhhardin said...

Does it pay anything?

Seven Machos said...

I bet everybody on both sides of this tempest in a teapot is a complete asshole.

Andy Freeman said...

> Sad fact is that Republicans make billions of dollars raping college students on high-interest college loan debt that can never, ever be discharged. It's guaranteed debt enforced by the jackboot thugs of the IRS.

No, they don't, and they didn't either.

"Don't" is because the feds took over student loans a year ago (with the exception of a bank "associated" with a prominent Dem senator).

"didn't" is because the major student loan banks weren't associated with repubs.

Shouting Thomas said...

Doesn't sound like the guy is going to go hungry, but (on the other hand) sounds as if the other profs are getting even.

What's with the emeritus status? Is this a gambit to give a last second boost to the guy's retirement pay?

This is a common gambit for public employees. They conspire with their bosses to phony up their grade level in the last two years of their employment so as to add to their retirement check.

Larry J said...

This just confirms the old saying about why academic pissing contests are so bitterly fought. It's "because the stakes are so low."

gadfly said...

So, help me understand this calamity. What harm or good does this Professor Emeritus Status do? Will the world suddenly be free of liberals? Will tuition fees drop at land grant colleges? Will professors spend more time in the classroom? Will student graduation rates improve?

I am reminded that when my gifted son graduated from high school in Waupaca, WI -- he was one of the few Wisconsin students to earn a National Merit Scholarship -- but the powers that be would not grant him admission to the National Honor Society!

Somehow we got over the insult and Professor Rob Natelson will as well.

Carol_Herman said...

Yeah. I once had an interview like that. First off, I don't mind taking tests. And, then when I was told I scored to high to qualify, I just laughed and said, "well, I guess, then, you have idiots running this place."

I never did want a boss who wasn't brighter than me.

As to Montana, and law schools, I hope they also teach ya how to ride a horse. Law schools not much use for most anything else. It's like wasting time earning an MBA degree.

My favorite Wall Street guru is Jimmy Rogers. In his first book (Investment Biker), he tells of a mom who brought her 23 year old daughter to him, so he could convince her to go for an MBA degree. WHY? He asked. If you just give her $150,000 (1988 prices). Then, she could open a business. Either way. If she earns money, she learns. And, if she loses it all she still learns a lot about business.

Lincoln didn't go to law school.

Someday, we'll go back to that system. Where you hire out and learn your craft from someone you respect. You don't need a law professor to help you read a book.

Also, soon enough you learn not to shout out to anybody that you'll sue. Fools errand.

george said...

The Volunteers have an early game against Montana this year. It was hard to gin up much excitement over it but now I have a reason to hate them.

Good work Montana Law.

virgil xenophon said...

And anyone even slightly familiar with the state of today's Ivy-covered halls of academe is surprised by this news exactly why?

Coketown said...

Liberal academics being vindictive little snots? Tear out the front page, New York Times! We've got a story here.

You can run that piece on the two Vancouver-based rioting lovers miraculously identified where it belongs--off a cliff.

Fred4Pres said...

The sad part is the faculty voted for emeritus status to a sheep at that school, but to be fair it was a very pretty sheep.

edutcher said...

I'm presuming the professor is a bit more conservative than his fellows.

(the Volokh piece didn't really say)

Penny said...

At least we can be thankful that Natelson's judges are not appointed judges of the court.

Methadras said...

Big Education has had it to good for too long.

nevadabob said...

"... the feds took over student loans a year ago ... the major student loan banks weren't associated with repubs.

Top 10 Student Loan Originators for 2010 (Most owned by Republicans)

1. Sallie Mae (govt)
2. Citibank
3. Wachovia Bank
4. Wells Fargo
5. Bank of America
6. JP Morgan Chase
7. Pittsburgh National
8. U.S. Bank
9. Discover Bank
10. Ed America

Do Republicans support making student loan debt dischargable in bankruptcy?

No. They do not.

Making this debt dischargable in bankruptcy would DECIMATE the Professor-Industrial Complex that supports the Democrat Party.

Lyle said...

Missoula flips the bird at the "other" Montana once again.

Unemployment said...

Ann,
Is Montana really that much more miserable of a law school than your own, which recently graduated a class with an unemployment rate around 50%?

bagoh20 said...

The market for low standards is overcrowded and highly competitive.

clint said...

Nevadabob-

What makes you say that those banks are primarily owned by Republicans?

I would guess quite the opposite.

(the iPad's autocorrect feature is a real pain with the word verification...)

Unemployment said...

This post, and the comments so far, are an amazing contrast to the attitude on this blog with respect to the Wisconsin union battle.

Shouting Thomas said...

This post, and the comments so far, are an amazing contrast to the attitude on this blog with respect to the Wisconsin union battle.

In what way are they related?

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

Unemployment said...

This post, and the comments so far, are an amazing contrast to the attitude on this blog with respect to the Wisconsin union battle.

Wow! You'll have to enlighten us on that contrast. As far as I can tell, the topics are completely unrelated. It's like saying a post on breakfast cereals is a telling contrast to a post on supermodels.

Carol said...

OMG, Rob's story hits Althouse.

It's unreal, the social isolation and lack of camaraderie & fellowship he suffered, all these years at UM, for being such a forthright and highly visible conservative. He really hung it out there, running for office twice, and always speaking out.

Yeah the faculty there are the usual douchebags, conformist, cowardly..the better ones have moved on. Next time they call for money they will get an earful.

wf: munfer - Munfer UM Law School? no way.

ironrailsironweights said...

Considering that at least 75% of the law schools* in America should be shut down immediately, this is an utterly irrelevant issue.

* = U. of Wisconsin would be one of those spared.

Peter

bagoh20 said...

"Montana Dean Irma Russell defended the decision on the grounds that emeritus status is a “privilege” and that each faculty member had to make a judgment based on his or her “conscience.”"

Or lack thereof.

bagoh20 said...

I thought Montana was a conservative place. Does this University have a moat?

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
nevadabob said...

"What makes you say that those banks are primarily owned by Republicans?"

Gee, you know what? You might have a point there. So, let's take a look at who owns Citibank, shall we?

But before we do, let's remember that the United States government guarantees the loans that Citibank makes to American students. What that means is that American students cannot discharge these loans in bankruptcy. So the loans are risk free to the owners of Citibank. Risk Free and carry very high interest (right now 6-7% for the best borrowers but up to 15%.)

So, let's see who owns Citibank, shall we?

But before we do that, let's remember that United States taxpayers gave Citibank $50 billion - that's billion with a B - to bail them out of the financial crisis and further guaranteed another $250 billion of Citibank loans. So, you as a taxpayer are paying higher taxes so that the owners of Citibank wouldn't realize any losses on #306 billion of loans.

So, now that we have some context, let's take a look at who owns Citibank, shall we?

But before we do that, remember ... Republicans protect Citibank by refusing to allow American students to discharge these loans in bankruptcy.

Largest Shareholder: The Islamic Government of Singapore - 11.1%

Next Largest Shareholder: The Islamic government of Kuwait

Next Largest Shareholder: The Islamic government of Abu Dhabi

Next Largest Shareholder: The Islamic government of Saudi Arabia

Now tell me ... why are Washington Republicans refusing to allow American citizens to escape slavery through bankruptcy from these obscenely high-interest loans guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the United States to a bunch of fucking foreign Muslims?

Why are Republicans protecting these Muslims?

lewsar said...

@nevadabob: the islamic government of singapore? i'm going to need an authoritative cite on provenance for this one. and it's going to have to be a really good cite, because singapore is as islamic as i am.

@bagh020: montana in general is pretty conservative, but missoula, home of the university of montana, is rather aggressively liberal in politics. missoula is an interesting place: an old mill town that now has delusions of progressiveness. the mills have mostly shut down these days, and as this has happened the university has become more prominent as economically to the city.

i've lived there on and off (mostly off) for most of my life. my wife and i own a house just south of the university. it's a lovely place, and we may well retire there.

nevadabob said...

"What makes you say that those banks are primarily owned by Republicans?"

You know what, you might have a point there, so let's take a look at who owns Wachovia Bank and who owns Wells Fargo Bank.

It's a little complicated, because of the financial crisis. Wachovia doesn't really exist any more. Wells Fargo was told, by Ben Bernanke during a secret meeting held in Washington D.C., that they were going to buy Wachovia whether they wanted to or not. So they did.

So now, Wells Fargo owns Wachovia and all the student loans Wachovia made.

So, let's take a look at who owns Wells Fargo.

But before we do that, remember that Republicans oppose allowing students to discharge their student loan debt in bankruptcy. This makes any loan Wells Fargo made to a student a "risk free" loan. And the interest rates are sky high ... up to 15% interest for poor credit risks.

So, now who owns Wells Fargo?

The single largest shareholder in Wells Fargo bank is Berkshire Hathaway.

Berkshire.

Berkshire.

Where do I know that name from?

Oh, I remember ... Warren Buffet owns Berkshire Hathway. And he's certainly not a Republican. He's a Democrat. How do I know he's a Democrat? Because he's part of the Barack Obama administration. He's a senior economic adviser to Barack Obama.

And every loan he's made to American students is being protected by Republicans who are opposed to allowing those students to discharge their student loan debt in bankruptcy court.

Now, I ask you ... why would Republicans want to protect the Democrat Warren Buffett and a bunch of foreign Muslims from losses on student loans?

Seven Machos said...

The Islamic Government of Singapore

That's a good one. Keep it up, Bob. You are a fabulous moby. But sometimes you let your guard down. Sometimes you push the envelope too much.

lewsar said...

@seven: no, it's a bad one. that just shows complete cluelessness. aren't mobys supposed to have some credibility?

Seven Machos said...

Bob cannot possibly be a conservative. He is some very smart leftist's imagined version of a conservative.

T said...

The University of Montana is in Missoula. Missoula models themselves after another western place of leftist hypocrisy - CU at Boulder, Colorado. CU gave Ward Churchill a pass for almost two decades before his fraudulent scholarship brought him down and this tenured radical got fired in a maelstrom of leftist cant.

I know this because I've attended both universities. When you hear "University of Montana" think "CU," but half-sized. And equally friendly to dissent from the Right.

nevadabob said...

"What makes you say that those banks are primarily owned by Republicans?"

Gee, you may have a point. Maybe J.P. Morgan isn't really a "Republican" bank. After all, it's hard to say really which are the "Republican" companies and which are the "Democrat" companies. Not every company is named "The Progressive" now is it?

But one way to discern the political leanings of a company is to look to see how the employees of those companies vote with their dollars. As any political science student could tell you (and they're on the hook for massive student loans to get this knowledge), how a company's employees donate to political candidates tells you a lot about the political leanings of the owners of the company. After all, what kind of a moron donates AGAINST the bosses preferred candidate?

So, let's take a look at how J.P. Morgan employees donate their money.

I'm certainly not going to scroll through all 21 pages of donations made by J.P. Morgan employees, but the overwhelming preponderance of the donations appear to be to Republican candidates. And they're maximum donations.

So, it's pretty easy to see why Republicans would want to oppose allowing American students to discharge their student loan debt owed to J.P. Morgan, seeing as how it would hurt their friends.

But that still doesn't explain why Republicans are protecting foreign Muslims, Chinese gangsters and Democrat Warren Buffet.

Why are Republicans helping these people when these people hurt Republican interests?

nevadabob said...

"The Islamic Government of Singapore"

You two are, of course, right. I made a typo there. It's not the Islamic Government of Singapore (copy/paste error), it's the Chinese government.

But I think the point is still valid.

Now that we've cleared that up, maybe you can address the real question (I don't think you have the intellect to do it, but try):

Why are Republicans enslaving American college students with usuriously high-interest nondischargeable loans, and in doing so protecting Democrat Warren Buffet, the Communist Chinese, and a bunch of Muslim countries including terrorist-supporting Saudi Arabia?

It seems counter intuitive that Republicans would want to help countries that are determined to destroy us and other disloyal Americans such as Buffet who are helping them.

If Republicans would united behind a change in our bankruptcy laws to allow college students to discharge their usurious loan debt in bankruptcy court, that would really, really, really hurt the Democrat Party.

It would end the subsidy enjoyed by the Professor-Industrial Complex that feeds back donations to Democrats.

Why are Republicans funding Democrats? Seems wrong to me.

Kim Priestap said...

Actually, nevadabob, it is possible, under rare circumstances, to discharge student loan debt.

nevadabob said...

" .. it is possible, under rare circumstances, to discharge student loan debt."

My heavily-school-loan-indebted daughter would like for you to precisely describe those circumstances.

She opposes giving interest to Muslims. It angers Allah and condemns them all to hell.

(PS: Megan McArdle begs to differ with you.)

(PS: Megan McArdle begs to differ.)

David said...

The Althouse fangs cut deep with that bite. Nice bite, Althouse.

bagoh20 said...

"Why are Republicans helping these people when these people hurt Republican interests?"

That's rhetorical, right?

David said...

Nevada Bob, welcome back from the planet Zorg.

Carol_Herman said...

Berkshire Hathaway came in late in the game and bought Wells Fargo at a bargain basement price. And, with the guarantee of the US Taxpayer!

The banks got taxpayer money. Just as, today, france and germany are swallowing greek debt.

All this just keeps kicking the can down the road.

Failure ahead just the same.

Now, with greece, the german BANKS came along and bailed the debt, so that greece wouldn't crash into the rocks.

Iceland, on the other hand, defaulted.

If you think there are life preservers in the water ... those aren't life preservers ... that's just taxpayers.

Merkel snapped the bag shut ... but ONLY because the banksters can't unload their toxic waste.

In America we call it a "real estate bubble." But you know what it is? ZOMBIE ECONOMICS.

No life. No spikes. If you saw it on an EKG it would be flat line.

What's really gone wrong? Investors have disappeared.

People are no longer willing to "invest." To invest just means your money won't incrementally make profits.

Without profits you don't even need hedge funds. What's to hedge?

nevadabob said...

"That's rhetorical, right?"

No, it is not.

Republicans should not adopt abusive policies that enslave our children but that accrue to the benefit of foreign Muslim sovereign wealth funds - some of which finance terror against us.

Republicans should not adopt abusive policies that enslave our children but that accrue to the benefit of the oppressive Communist Chinese government.

And Goddammit ... Republicans should not be adopting policies that help Warren Fucking Buffet. He's a turncoat Democrat.

Take his shit.

Redistribute it to OUR SIDE.

nevadabob said...

"Nevada Bob, welcome back from the planet Zorg."

That sir, is quite an impressive and fact-filled rebuttal. Your theories intrigue me. Is there a way for me to subscribe to your newsletter?

bagoh20 said...

"My heavily-school-loan-indebted daughter would like for you to precisely describe those circumstances."

So you think she should not have to pay that money back and not honor her agreement because somebody she doesn't like loaned it to her. That's conveniently late to get so picky about where the money comes from.

bagoh20 said...

I'd say the Republicans did the same thing our innocent children and their parents do: took money from who offered it, and didn't ask any questions except "where do I sign?".

jamboree said...

Anyone who can pay the tuition by whatever means should be able to get in to law school. They'd still have to pass the bar, but otherwise it's falsely controlling the market which needs a serious shakeout anyway.

Browndog said...

Prof. Insty talks frequently about the "bubble"...

Ironically, both Michigan and Michigan State raised their tuitions 6.8% and 6.9% respectively...again...still.

I'm reminded of the French Revolution..

Carol_Herman said...

What happens if kids don't want to absorb the "postponed payouts" for a useless education?

You can't discharge the debt unless you die. That's a very poor option.

As long as you have something to squeeze? And, yes. There are regulations in place that force an employer to deduct "stuff" from your paycheck. To turn over to other people.

So far? I think student debt isn't payroll deductible. But as the kids grows up, not paying off (at least the minimum monthly amounts) is terrifying because you can't save. And, you have lousy credit.

If student loans WERE dischargable ... people would continue to sign their lives away. Thinking they can "cut a deal" later on ... Perhaps? Pennies on the dollar.

Instead? Interest means you owe more.

You know, of course, this is how the mafia lends out money. You can never repay them. Because each week your knuckles or your kneecaps go unbroken, it's because you're paying your loan shark cash.

What will the campus buildings be used for? When the students stop filling them ... What would be a good use for them? Ivy plant holders?

You think I'm kidding?

You can't see how you could open your computer in your garage ... and connect to courses. And, maybe, if old movie theaters get used for something else ... You go into them on big, national, test taking days?

Those who signed student loans, though have to die off.

Well? Dinosaurs eventually died off.

I don't even see a market in the old picture frames with diplomas in them.

Buying marriage licenses from City Hall will remain a bargain.

nevadabob said...

"So you think she should not have to pay that money back and not honor her agreement because somebody she doesn't like loaned it to her."

I don't think she should have to pay back a loan to Saudi Arabia since they financed 17 of the 19 terrorists that attacked our country and killed 3,000 of our fellow citizens.

But that's just me. I'm a loyal American.

And I don't think Republicans should be helping the Muslim sovereign funds enslave our children with usurious loans that are legally inescapable.

I'd rather just drop nuclear bombs on those motherfuckers and be done with it.

Any more questions?

nevadabob said...

"I'm reminded of the French Revolution."

And just days after they released Gabby.

Shame. Shame. SHAME!

Steve said...

"I thought Montana was a conservative place. Does this University have a moat? "

Close to it. As a graduate of the school, I am ashamed, but not disappointed in this. But as I said, the school is not the same as Montana.

Carol_Herman said...

Oh, doesn't mean someday we won't get politicians, who see the handwriting on the wall. And, just like unions are facing the music, now ... down the road ... who knows?

If the real estate market stays dead on toxic paper ... eventually someone will have to go and swipe at it. By removing it. By giving people a helping hand.

Yup. What's not collectible ... can be turned around. Banks won't write off a scintilla of dept unless forced.

But, you bet. To move the market to a better place ... the toxic paper has to be regurgitated.

Nope. It's not a "fair distribution." It only helps relieve the market of excessive pressure.

It's like law schools.

As long as customers come? There's no need to offer coupons.

nevadabob said...

When businessmen realize they took out a bad loan and can't afford to pay it back to the banks, what do they do?

Why are our children not afforded by Republicans the same opportunity to reshuffle their finances?

Why are Republicans protecting the Muslism, the Communist Chinese and Democrat Warren Buffet by refusing to allow our children to discharge these predatory loans in bankruptcy court?

Doing so would destroy the Democrat-Professor Industrial complex.

So how come they won't allow it?

David said...

"Is there a way for me to subscribe to your newsletter?"

It's available on the Zorgian internet for free in real Zorgian time. You will know how to find it.

nevadabob said...

"Bob cannot possibly be a conservative. He is some very smart leftist's imagined version of a conservative."

Yeah, I just spent the better part of a month destroying the 20-year career of lifelong Congressional Democrat Anthony Weiner because, in reality, I'm a Democrat moby imagining myself to be some kind of a conservative. But I'm really a Democrat.

Okaaaaaaay.

Whatever helps you sleep at night kid. Whatever helps you sleep.

Teri said...

Can you show me where some student is getting a government-backed student loan at 15%? I have never heard of that, I thought the interest rates were capped, and that there were not credit checks done on the borrowing students.

LTC John said...

I would think nevadabob is not necessarily a moby, just none too desirable - honor a debt?! Only if I like what I imagine the source of captial to be... of course, I get to keep the benefit, yes?

Honor!

nevadabob said...

"Can you show me where some student is getting a government-backed student loan at 15%? I have never heard of that ..."

Wait, you want me to do your research for you? Before you announce your position?

Do I have this right?

G Joubert said...

NevadaBob you made one point which has some merit: Republicans generally favor stricter rules when it comes to dischargeability of debts and Democrats generally favor rules which are less strict about dischargeability. Generally. But on the particular subject of student loans, you have to be careful in making these generalizations. It was the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 1978 that first made student loans nondischargeable, which was passed by one of the most liberal congresses in history and signed into law by Jimmy Carter. The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 which made even stricter rules, including on student loans, had broad bi-partisan support. So it's really hard to generalize on student loans. If this current higher education bubble continues to worsen, which it almost certainly will, look for serious discussion to change the rules on student loan dischargeability. It's hard to say which side will push it.

As for your discussion about foreign ownership of banks, sorry it's just way to tenuous to tie up foreign ownership of banks with student loan nondischargeability.

Big Mike said...

I think it's problematic to makes assumptions without more details about the situation than are contained in the short article. Was Rob Natelson denied emeritus status because of his political views, which is what Jonathan Adler implies and Natelson apparently confirms with his response?

Or is the vote a rational response to a situation such as the astronomers at Cal Tech faced with the late Fritz Zwicky, who, famously, set a new standard for collegiality when he termed one of his contemporaries a "spherical bastard" because "he's a bastard no matter which way you look at him."

On the other hand, Zwicky did become a professor emeritus.

nevadabob said...

"just none too desirable - honor a debt?!"

Well now wait just a minute ... you have to defend this. I ask you: What do companies do when they make a loan that they suddenly realize they can no longer support given current economic circumstances that they never anticipated

Our laws allow for the orderly reorgnanization of debt. There is absolutely nothing immoral or illegal about this.

Banks default on loans too. That's why we - the taxpayers - bailed them out. We insured their losses.

So now if banks can default on loans and receive taxpayer dollars, and if businesses can default on loans and declare bankruptcy, then why can't our children do the same thing? Why can't our children just tell Saudi Arabia that thank you but we won't be paying you back since you flew jets into our buildings and killed our citizens?

Big Mike said...

The nondischargeability of student loans is the government's rational response to the following situation:

(1) Young person takes out huge loans to go to college and then med school.

(2) Young person is a lowly-paid intern.

(3) Young person declares bankruptcy and gets rid of his or her student loan indebtedness.

(4) Young person completes his or her residency and gets a lucrative position as a doctor, sans student loans.

I saw this situation played out several times in my 60+ years on the planet, and I do not find it to be a stretch to assume that there were variants of the plan for law students with lowly-paid (as in zero, perhaps) internships or clerkships, not to mention other variants for young people with bulls**t degrees unable to land a decent-paying job.

I realize that it's tough for young people who've taken out loans so that they can spend 4 years getting drunk and taking gut courses. But I'm not all that sorry for them.

Seven Machos said...

MOBY.

nevadabob said...

SEVEN MACHOS IS A DEMOCRAT.

BURN HIM.

nevadabob said...

1) Young person takes out huge loans to go to college and then med school after the school promises 95% placement rate.

(2) Young person is unable to be placed.

(3) Young person discovers school was lying about its placement rate.

(4) Young person is fucked for life and is now a slave to the same Saudi Arabian terrorists who flew jets into the World Trade Center and murdered 3,000 of our citizens.

Fuck. That. Shit.

REVOLUTION.

And woe be to any fucking Republicans who support this terrorist funding scheme.

Carol_Herman said...

What's a MOBY?

nevadabob said...

"What's a MOBY?"

Anyone 7Machos can't keep up with. Anyone who effectively counters the Democrat Party talking points he gets from DKos.

Carol_Herman said...

My ex finished medical school, residency. And, sub-specialty training in cardiology, before his medical school loans came due in 1979. He owed a total of $6,000.

And, back in those days to go into private practice meant AT LEAST $60,000 to open an office, and buy all the equipment.

I think there were 3 women in his graduating class.

Times change.

The costs, however, skyrocketed. There's no cap on what it can cost you, if people want the credential.

Heck, when my son was applying to college, Harvard was raking in $50 with every single of it's 10,000 applicants. (Never made sense to me!)

While one gal in his high school class had snapped up 2nd place, in a WESTINGHOUSE science prize. Caltech opened its doors ... and offered her a free education. (Where her mom then complained she still had to pay room and board charges.)

One of the other things?

Some kids head off to college to run away from home. (Thank goodness Mudd was only 23 miles away.)

But high school graduation is a dividing line that kids cross.

And, it is so sad that its the banksters who then went and shook so many of them down. Like they were low-lying fruit on a tree.

Maybe, back before the 60's, to go to college meant you had to save up money to pay the tuition. You'd see 32 year olds who were still going to school ... because they loved the student life. Never having to amass enough credits to graduate.

Carol_Herman said...

MOBY. Mothers old. Babies young.

You get to be a MOBY if you get pregnant after 35. Or 45?

What has 7Nachos got to do with this?

Carol_Herman said...

How does the IRS treat college loan payments?

There used to be a time lots of stuff was deductible.

Are payments made on school loans something you can deduct from your taxes?

Big Mike said...

@nevedabob, a young person with a medical degree can always get a job with public health service, which pays enough to pay back the loan over time.

And it's not as though they'd need a McMansion out in some desolate Indian reservation (oops, I meant Native American reservation). Or in Appalachia.

So I still have no sympathy.

And as for law school grads who can't get a job in some big city law firm, they can always get a job at a research lab. Because, as everybody knows, there are things that even rats won't do.

[bada bing]

nevadabob said...

Mike,

Your problem is that you think like it's still 1950. It's not.

These kids aren't getting these loans legitimately. College and universities are WILDLY and FRAUDULENTLY representing their placement rates upon graduation.

And these schools (not to mention the banks) are no longer American institutions. They are controlled by foreign powers.

Now, I grant you, in days of yore, when American banks were owned by Americans and when American colleges and universities were funded by Americans, then it was our patriotic duty to repay our obligations.

But that is no longer the case.

Our college and universities have been taken over by foreign sovereign wealth funds and are controlled from places like Abu Dhabi. So have our banks been subverted.

We no longer have a loyal responsibility to our fellow Americans with respect to school loans because NONE of the players are American.

I have told my daughter that I will disown her and remove her from my will if she voluntarily repays these loans.

Fuck these people. I will not allow my children to be supplicants to these motherfuckers.

And I will do everything in my power going forward to seen them annihilated as viciously as is humanly possible given current technology.

themightypuck said...

Seriously who cares about this? Did you know this guy?

Seven Machos said...

I will disown her and remove her from my will if she voluntarily repays these loans.

MOBY.

G Joubert said...

Big Mike @9:44

The scenarios you describe are what led to the BRA of 1978, making student loans nondischargeable. I'm sure the same potential for abuse exists today, but there are also some added severe twists for today's student. First, the cost of higher education has rocketed through the stratosphere. In 1978 an undergrad might've run up, say, $6K for all four years, but nowadays it's well into 6 figures. Second, the schools push the student loans at the students. Hey, it's easy money for the schools, which leads directly the the highly inflationary cost of higher ed (jacked up salaries for faculty, administrators, etc.). It's outrageously and insidiously corrupt. Third, the job market being what it is... students come out of school with no job and no hope of a job and $160K+ in debt. And no relief whatsoever in the bankruptcy code.

It needn't be an all or nothing thing in bankruptcy. If a debtor is within 10 years of the date the last student debt was incurred, force them into a 4-year Ch 13, making 48 months of payments into the plan, then discharge whatever is left. If over 10 years since the date the last student loan was incurred, give the debtor the option of the 4-year Ch 13 or Ch7 discharge of 50% of remaining debt. Something like that. There should be some form of relief in the law.

G Joubert said...

What's a Moby?

From the Urban Dictionary for moby:

1. moby

An insidious and specialized type of left-wing troll who visits blogs and impersonates a conservative for the purpose of either spreading false rumors intended to sow dissension among conservative voters, or who purposely posts inflammatory and offensive comments for the purpose of discrediting the blog in question.

The term is derived from the name of the liberal musician Moby, who famously suggested in February of 2004 that left-wing activists engage in this type of subterfuge: “For example, you can go on all the pro-life chat rooms and say you’re an outraged right-wing voter and that you know that George Bush drove an ex-girlfriend to an abortion clinic and paid for her to get an abortion. Then you go to an anti-immigration Web site chat room and ask, ‘What’s all this about George Bush proposing amnesty for illegal aliens?’”

The strategy has been frequently attempted on conservative blogs, but has not been nearly as effective as Moby envisioned, since false rumors are easily debunked by fact-checking minions, and cartoonishly extreme commenters often get immediately identified as mobys and banned.

"While I agree that it is vital to monitor incoming international phone calls from terrorists, President Bush has gone too far.

By secret executive order, he has instructed the NSA to place hidden cameras in the girls' locker rooms of Washington D.C. (Dirt bag City) Islamic schools. His desire to find out 'what is under all those burqas' is beyond the pale.

Maybe the Dhimmicrats are right. If he would do this, what else is he capable of? Let your voice be heard! I for one will never send the RNC money ever again. And, no, I am not a moby."

sorepaw said...
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enicar333 said...

I don't know - Where does Thomas Edison or Nikiola Tesla fit in?

Why do "authorities" want to claim that you can't educate when that is actually what you do. It is TRIAL and ERROR. For example: I spent my life in construction - I know how to calculate stairs/rafters/ standarized framing, etc. I didn't just "swing a hammer". Now, many of my co-workers, who spent as much time - couldn't accomplish the same tasks ---- so what's 20 years "experience" worth.......
Did you have ONE day repeated day after day over 20 years - or did you learn something every day? Now you can begin to UNDERSTAND the TRUE depth of experience.

enicar333 said...

BTW- what is a MOBY (yeah, I am old and slow) What is up with that?

enicar333 said...

BTW II - Someone here owes me an APOLOGY - while I am too honest to understand law - I know I brought this up before - I was informed it would be overturned on appeal - it's not. ANN? I know Ted W - the neighbor and worked for him - personally -at his studio -"Sparks for Art".... etc.etc.
So MARK JENSEN has been convicted... from the GRAVE.
http://www.journaltimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_c201e6f8-990e-11e0-b3af-001cc4c002e0.html

Seven Machos said...

A moby is someone who pretends to be someone they are not in order to make some political faction look bad. The derivation of the slang comes from the techno-rock musician Moby, who suggested such a strategy to smear conservatives.

Bob is a moby. No one would, just for example, not bequeath anything to their daughter because she followed the law and repaid her student loans. That's crazy. No one would suggest that Saudi Arabia somehow owns our banking sector.

If Bob isn't a moby, he's a total loon like you, Enicar. I think you both should set up a political action committee dedicated to sterilizing poor people.

David said...

Be nice to Bob. He has many loyal followers on Zorg. What he says makes sense there.

Lem said...

Couldn't Natelson's Originalist tribe flee to Wyoming and hole up until he gets the award?

Wait.. that didn't work in Madison.

Never mind.

enicar333 said...

Seven Nachos - Thank you for the definition. In My mind it is similiar to a RINO - Republican in name only.

I can agree to being a LOON - but it was only through experience with the system I became that way.

I have to disagree with you on children and reproductive rights -spent too much time in the ghetto/poor to know children arn't always a blessing -

BTW - I still think that the precepts on the Georgia Guidestones are the way of the future: http://www.thegeorgiaguidestones.com/message.htm

Seven Machos said...

Once you simply accept the glorious fact that God gives every human being equal dignity and that no mere mortal can ever take that dignity away, all morality comes together fluidly and easily. Ethical questions become effortless.

Too bad for you.

Big Mike said...

@nevadabob, I might be a Boomer, but I wasn't even in grade school in 1950.

And I can agree that colleges do play games with their placement rates, for instance including as "placed" people who are vastly underemployed and excluding people who are deemed to not be looking for work (sometimes under a fairly loose definition of what constitutes "not looking for work").

I will even concede that when colleges promise financial aid they generally mean the availability of loans, vice scholarships.

So what?

It's up to the kids and the parents to understand that a college degree, any college degree, from any institution whatsoever is not the key to long life and happiness. I don't think engineering schools have to fudge their placement statistics, but if you want to major in engineering you had best set your mind to working instead of boozing.

As for the rest of your rant, my friend, please put down the Kool Aid and back away from the table.

On the other hand, Mr. Joubert, you make a lot of sense. Perhaps it's time -- and past time -- for Congress and the Department of Education to consider proposals such as yours.

Big Mike said...

@sorepaw, I was wondering whether anybody would pick up on that. Thanks.

Seven Machos said...

Any student who can demonstrate financial hardship may declare bankruptcy and be free and clear of all student loans. The schools that received the money can pay the loans back. The schools can then have a lien against property against the student for, say, 10 years after the bankruptcy.

Problem solved.

enicar333 said...

"Too bad for me"

Yet, everyday, POTUS is killing in (outright) Iraq, Afgnanistan, Libya, Yemen, Pakistan... and through Saudia Arabis- Baihrain. Don't worry...close you eyes, and soothe your conscience... these are evil men, women and children...

You - Seven Nachos - defend the unconscionable - you show yourself to be the greatest threat to freedom ever....How sad, but true.

enicar333 said...

Seven Nachos - Have you ever lived outside MADISON? I have. You accuse me of NO empathy - I suggest you don't understand it. You - are a sociopath. But continue to live within the paradise that is... MADISON. Isulate yourself...well.

Seven Machos said...

Killing terrorists is bad. Forcibly sterilizing poor people is good.

Okay, chief. Gotcha.

Also, as long as you are claiming American military action where there simply isn't any, why not add Sri Lanka, Seychelles, and Slovakia to your list?

Carol_Herman said...

You need a MOBY after Alinsky's rules have been spelled out?

Well, I just didn't know there were so many older pregnant women on board.

Is Huma soon to be one?

Hate people who don't vote your way all you want. Most families learn to avoid stupid fights.

And, beligerence isn't a tactic. It's a fool's errand.

To win elections, though, you have to entertain the idea that a candiate can appeal. Heck, Reagan had more blue dog democrats ... than he had members of the bush family who actually liked him.

I don't miss Dubya.

And, I think McCain was about the worst choice the GOP could make. Given that so many people inside the GOP hated him ... There's no explaining how he got chosen. REALLY!

And, the best part of this board are the expressions that come from all over the place.

Sometimes? A person can learn something new.

As to professors, they are only important onto themselves. They fight over parking spaces.

Which raises the question, here. If you retire do you keep your parking space?

Or does your parking space just "go" ... the way Anthony Weiner's staff just showed up without jobs. Emeritus professors might feel sorry. But they can't hire them, either.

In life, you only have clout if you've got jobs to offer others.

Seven Machos said...

I live in Chicago. I have never lived in Madison. Good luck with the forced sterilization of poor people. Because that's constitutional and just.

bagoh20 said...

If you think a young person with a college degree, living in the United states and carrying some debt is a tragic scenario, you need to expand your circle of friends.

The horror.

G Joubert said...

Any student who can demonstrate financial hardship may declare bankruptcy and be free and clear of all student loans.

Nah. It's so rarely granted as to be null. There's no relief at law for the average debtor in bankruptcy, when there should be something. Given the way higher ed are running up the costs, and given the way the banks hand out loans like candy, they should not be sacrosanct in bankruptcy court.

A. Shmendrik said...

Maybe this Natelson feller did something unspeakably bad, like flashed his Weiner. No?

Carol_Herman said...

Schmendrick, you're in the wrong profession.

Weiner just got himself a retirement package worth a milion a year. And, benny's.

He's also keeping his "war chest" ... of about $5-million ... which he earned "dialing for dollars."

The TV interviews were just stunts to make you believe he was twisting in the wind.

Maybe, the lesson is that men should lower their pants to their knees. And, expose themselves in their underwear. Whether they look like their ready to do underwear commercials. OR not.

But the weiner story?

Follow da' money.

Carol_Herman said...

Sterilization of women used to be something the Catholic Church allowed for its female members. So women of 32 had perfectly healthy uterus's surgically removed. That this gave them instant menopause?

It was amazing how this was kept a secret. But Catholic women were desperate.

Do you know why women don't want to be like Elsie the Cow? Labor hurts. It's like passing a stone. Or getting a heart attack. Except, because of the baby, you can't be giving heavy duty narcotics to stop the pain.

As to having babies while on welfare, wouldn't it work better if the top amount went to the first kid. And, after that the amounts went down?

At some point in time, you're just gonna run out of other people's money.

Sterilization costs money. Abstinence doesn't.

(I remember reading that when only condoms were available as birth control, poor families had their men washing out the condom. So it could be used again. And, again.)

You think people really want to breed large families? You haven't, then, even spent one night, listening to women in labor, scream.

Col Mustard said...

College is kinda like a drug. Sellers don't have buyers' best interests at heart.

College, as most of us have known it, is an anachronism. The Wal.Mart model could/should burst this bubble PDQ.

If college faculty had been as now, in Shakespeare's day, The Bard may have cut the lawyers some slack.

nevadabob said...

SevenMachos Wrote: "Any student who can demonstrate financial hardship may declare bankruptcy and be free and clear of all student loans."

This is just factually incorrect. Federally-guaranteed student loans are not dischargeable in either Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 bankruptcy unless you can prove "undue hardship" (not mere financial hardship).

Courts apply an virtually impossible to overcome "Brunner Test" to judge whether you meet the criteria for "undue hardship"

These criteria are designed so that it is impossible for a normal person in financial hardship (such as current historically bad employment conditions) to meet the requirements.

If you become totally physically disabled, then you can probably meet this test, but otherwise, bankruptcy courts simply will not discharge your student loan for any reason.

HEAL Loans are even worse. Default on one of these loans and you're automatically ejected from Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements, in addition to still owing your med school loans.

It simply is not acceptable to allow Muslim sovereign wealth funds and hostile Ccommunist governments abroad to have this kind of control over our children's financial futures.

It's un-American.

Our laws have always in the past rested on the principal that severe and unpredictable economic upheaval occurs from time to time, and that individuals should be able to walk away from unserviceable debt and start fresh.

Corporations are allowed to do it (Tishman-Speyer_; governments do it (GM); every bank has done it. Every one of them.

There is nothing illegal or immoral about walking away from unserviceable debt caused by economic forces completely outside your control (such as 19% under/unemployment and a Great Depression).

To force our children into involuntary servitude to foreign Muslims and Communists is quite simply abjectly immoral.

And it baffles me why allegedly loyal American Republicans are allowing it.

Lem said...

When Labour Minister Lisa Raitt said the federal government could force striking Canada Post staff back to work, labour types bristled.

You would think that in a shrinking market share (where the competition has been discovered to do it faster, cheaper and around the clock) the service provider at the short end of that shrinking market would try very hard not to piss of the remaining customers by forcing them into the 21st century.

BTW (at no point in the story is electronic mail even mentioned)

I used to think, at my age, by now things would start to make sense.

GMay said...

Seven,

Bob tried this one: "I don't think she should have to pay back a loan to Saudi Arabia since they financed 17 of the 19 terrorists that attacked our country and killed 3,000 of our fellow citizens."

This is probably the biggest MOBY giveaway to me. You could google '17 of 19 terrorists saudi arabia' and find any number of sites with straight-faced comments dancing all around full bore trooferism.

Lem said...

And another thing..

I'm beginning to warm up to this inter league.. not an abomination anymore ;)

I'm not gloating.. not my fault the Brewers happened to play a red hot Sox team.

(go Sox)

yashu said...

Moby or not (IMO he is, but sometimes I'm not sure-- he's certainly much better at it than most), I'm pretty sure nevadabob = "punch back twice as hard" NewHam (& possibly other past characters whose names I forget).

nevadabob said...

"You could google '17 of 19 terrorists saudi arabia' and find any number of sites with straight-faced comments dancing all around full bore trooferism."

What the fuck is "trooferism?"

Not sure what you mean ... but according to the 9-11 Commission Report, 17 of the 19 hijackers that attacked us on 9-11 were Saudis (or Egyptians who had lived a long time in Saudi Arabia). And these terrorists received the bulk of their financing for the attack from other members of the Saudi Arabian ruling family or their close associates.

But don't take my word for it. You can read the 9-11 Commission Report for yourself here.

Carol said...

"Are payments made on school loans something you can deduct from your taxes?"

Haha, that's one of the first things we discussed in the Tax class at U Montana. Education is considered a capital investment...but with no writeoff for depreciation.

sorepaw said...
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sorepaw said...
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Seven Machos said...

My scenario does not explain the current situation.

GMay said...

Bob,

To expound upon sorepaw's succinct definition, it's spelled/pronounced "troofer" to mock the profoundly stupid brains that promote 9/11 trutherism.

I won't dispute the fact that most of the hijackers were Saudi, that's simple, yet irrelevant fact. I also wouldn't bet against you being a troofer.

The Moby part is obvious.

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