March 11, 2011

Protesters kicked in a wooden panel of a door to the Wisconsin Capitol.

Yesterday a district criminal investigator told Meade that this damage took place on Wednesday night, and Meade got the photographs today:

P1070798

P1070800

And let's look at those pictures and think about the question who put handcuffs on the doorknobs that night. The doors have their own locks. Why would the police add more security to the doors than what is provided by those locks? Battering the doors causes the damage you see in those photographs.

And the police were on the scene to protect the Capitol, not abandoning the building. I think that from their perspective, they would not want more security than provided by the locks. Moreover, handcuffs on the doorknobs could be deadly in the case of a fire or some other imminent need for egress.

In addition, when Meade saw the handcuffs, the police had already retreated from the scene. There were protesters in the area. Meade and another observer thought they didn't look like police handcuffs (because they weren't sufficiently shiny and substantial). In the enlarged photograph, you can read the serial number on the handcuffs: 019989. (The second and third 9s could be 5s.)

Finally, the police have not made a statement saying that they handcuffed the doors shut. I think this is a big enough issue that the police should now say whether they did it or not.

ADDED: Meade showed the handcuffs picture to several police officers at the Capitol today (3/11). The first police officer Meade showed the picture to said the handcuffs didn't look like police handcuffs because they were "shitty." He also said that handcuffing the doors is not something the police would do. Eventually Meade made his way to the office of Wisconsin Capitol Police Chief Charles Tubbs, who said he would call him back. Meade left his name and number, and we await Tubbs's call.

100 comments:

Lincolntf said...

I assume you meant to say that the protesters PEACEFULLY kicked in a wooden panel of a door to the Wisconsin Capitol.
I assume that's how AP will report it.

Alex said...

That's ok, kicking in doors is important. It's god's work.

79cc0aee-4c1f-11e0-99f3-000bcdcb2996 said...

Are you sure that the serial # is not upside down? ("585610")

former law student said...

Why would the police add more security to the doors than what is provided by those locks?

I wouldn't expect police to have access to keys for Capitol building locks, unless they regularly provided building security.

chickelit said...

Weren't there multiple police forces deployed that night, municipal, Capitol, and State Troopers?


wv = troopergate (just kidding)

lemondog said...

Oh well, the doors are old and need to be replaced anyway.

Why doesn't Meade copyright his photos?

PaulV said...

Yes, a 911 Truther like Loughter could have started shooting.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Our house! Your repair bill!

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


Oh well, the doors are old and need to be replaced anyway.


If you stop and think on it, this was a Public Service, a Public Works Project, and Economic Stimulus, and rather than condemn the “violence” we ought encourage more Capitol Reconstruction Projects like this….(Please do NOT refer me to Bastiat).

PaulV said...

lemondog, Meade still has ownership and has, I think, a year to copyright. KOS steals.

edutcher said...

Ann, there's no way in Hell the cops would cuff those doors. If there was a fire (just think fire codes), you could kill a lot of people in a hurry with doors locked from the inside.

This is KosKid level dumb.

As for the panel, what the Hell else do we expect from these people? They think everybody owes them.

bagoh20 said...

If the cops were gonna lock the doors, I'd expect them to use the handcuffs. They have keys and they all would be able to open them quickly. Locking the doors with the actual door keys is unlikely by the cops and would be far less safe once people are inside.

But of course anyone else could have put the handcuffs on too.

Just saying, the cuffs themselves prove nothing nefarious.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Only a controlled, 'civil' kick could have resulted in cleanly removing the door panel.

This is the work of a highly-trained, steel-toed union thug.

Is that 7.5 million dollar damage estimate accurate?

Fred4Pres said...

Tsunami damage?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I think that from their perspective, they would not want more security than provided by the locks.

The way the doors of public building lock, you can always open them from the inside. I could certainly see police who are trying to protect the building wanting to stop people who are already inside from letting in more people.

I'm not saying that the police handcuffed the doors; as you note that would be a serious fire safety issue. But I do see why they could want more than the standard locks.

bagoh20 said...

If the door locks can be opened from inside without keys, then only the cuffs would have worked to keep more from entering.

Elliott A said...

Why hasn't the governor endeavored to prosecute the criminal activity?
Trespassing, defacing public property,etc. It is also illegal to physically prevent an individual (legislators) from going to their job. It is interesting that he is so steadfast on the budget and so "whatever" on the obscene behavior of some of these protestors.

garage mahal said...

Is that 7.5 million dollar damage estimate accurate?

New Meadia thinks twice that amount! But, no, not accurate.

pbAndj said...

"New Meadia thinks twice that amount! But, no, not accurate."

So, if Meadhousia was wrong when it suggeted that the chaotic mob of Madison was locking people in w/ handcuffs, will there be a correction?

Or is that too old-media?

James said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stephanie said...

Take the photo down there and ask the cops if they did it, or would ever do it. They should know if those cuffs are issue.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@pb j

"So, if Meadhousia was wrong when it suggeted that the chaotic mob of Madison was locking people in w/ handcuffs, will there be a correction?

Or is that too old-media?"

I would be surprised if this was done by the police. Needless to say this could be dangerous if the building needed to be evacuated in the event of a fire, etc.

This has dimwitted union thug written all over it.

Stephanie said...

DT2012...This has dimwitted union thug written all over it.


or dimwitted union thug cop.

Sofa King said...

This has dimwitted union thug written all over it.

But, you can't deny this describes an awful lot of police officers!

Mary Beth said...

Aren't there security cameras in there?

Michael The Magnificent said...

My best friend is a cop in Milwaukee. His handcuffs are not at all shiny, and look very much like those in Meade's picture. Notice also the cuff's keyholes are facing the door, making picking them to remove them a bit more difficult.

BJM said...

I'm sure a protester simply rested his/her foot on the door and as a result maintenance budget cutbacks; the door panel gave way.

Reagan said...

The fact that out of several hundreds of thousands of protesters over the past few weeks, a few did really stupid things (assuming they did them and not someone trying to make them look bad) is really not that shocking. What is important, is that you take the actions of a few people and conflate them into a great conspiracy leading from douchey protesters, to union thugs, to union bosses, to union police officers, to the heads of the local and state Democratic Party, to President Obama, and then to either Osama bin Laden or Stalin, depending on your personal preference. The links are just so clear.

Godot said...

Althouse wrote:
"In the enlarged photograph..."

This link is not functioning in my browser. It contains an extra h in the http prefix.

hhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/althouse/5513474229/sizes/o/in/photostream/

Of course users can cut 'n paste to get to the photo.

Lincolntf said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lincolntf said...

Not a single day of the protests went by (that I could tell) where someone wasn't shouting vulgarities, waving swastikas, falsifying Doctors excuses, skipping work, leaving mounds of trash, marring a National Monument or equating a budgetary complaint to genocide in the Middle East. Not one day.

Calendrically speaking, I'd say that the Madison mob achieved a 100% rate of hostility, ignorance and contempt for the rule of law.

Michael The Magnificent said...

Let me add that if one were to buy handcuffs for, let's say, recreational purposes, chrome plating with padded leather covering may be the appropriate choice.

However, if you're a cop buying equipment on an allowance, knowing full well the cuffs will get used lots of times, dropped lots of times, occasionally get lost when handing over an arrestee, the decision to spend the extra coin for polish and chrome is quickly dismissed.

These cuffs look used, with scratches testifying to the fact that they have been in contact with surfaces far harder than silk.

Fen said...

I'm not saying that the police handcuffed the doors; as you note that would be a serious fire safety issue. But I do see why they could want more than the standard locks.

Agreed.

But IF the police did this, their leadership needs to be emailed the picture. If thats SOP, fine. If its not, they need to know about it so it doesn't happen next time.

Kim Grimmer said...

Oh, the horror, the horror.

Ann Althouse said...

Stephanie said... "Take the photo down there and ask the cops if they did it, or would ever do it. They should know if those cuffs are issue."

We will.

And anyone with an iPhone can get the picture here to display. Go up to police and ask them about it.

BJM said...

@bagoh20

They have keys and they all would be able to open them quickly.

A few points to consider;

a)Think panic and just how many hundreds of people would swarm to that door in seconds.

b)Plus all doors in public spaces must be operable from the inside by law. That's how the doors were opened once the protesters breached the building via the window. The police wouldn't barricade a door that might be needed in an emergency.

c)Another strong argument against the police doing this is that there were open doors nearby. So what would be the point?

As we saw in the video, once they knew they were outnumbered and couldn't control all the doors (see b), the police shooed the people away from the doors that they managed to close and being Wisconsinites, the crowd obeyed.

Of course one of them may have acted rashly, you never know what goes through one's mind in such a situation, but their training should have kicked in.

BJM said...

@Michael the Magnificent

These cuffs look used, with scratches testifying to the fact that they have been in contact with surfaces far harder than silk.

*Chuckle*

mrs whatsit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MadisonMan said...

Shameful.

mrs whatsit said...

Delete Comment From: Althouse

Blogger mrs whatsit said...

lemondog, Meade did copyright his photos, simply by taking them, and Kos violated his copyright by using it without attribution. Copyright springs automatically into existence upon the creation of a work in a tangible form. Registering a copyright with the US Copyright Office provides extra protection by putting a date on record, but that doesn't CREATE the copyright, it just records it. See explanation from horse's mouth here:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork

Hank Rearden_WI said...

So this is how they treat "Our House".

I can imagine the sty they wallow in for the rest of their day. Duct tape and phone usage instructions abound.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

It's reassuring to know that you think door panels are more important than the rights of ACTUAL LIVING BREATHING PEOPLE!!!

PatCA said...

Doctor's excuse of the day: the unjust actions of Mubarak/Walker caused the patient to kick in the door.

Lincolntf said...

The "actual living breathing people" were the scumbags who battered their way through that door. They should be found, arrested and tried. And yes, I do think that finding them is more important than the simple wooden panel they destroyed.

E.M. Davis said...

rights

Which rights do you speak of? The public-property destroying rights?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Pathetic.

The most important part of the republic to you whores is the fucking property!

The rights that Walker usurped and his disregard for proper legislative procedure and an open political process in doing it, not so much.

Go ahead and cherish your beautiful golden calf of a state house. Lord knows that the crumbling public infrastructure everywhere else is not your concern. You scummy red staters might as well live in the landscape of Afghanistan. As long as the king's palace is immaculate and shiny, you're as happy as a bunch of regular Saddam Husseins. That's really all you are.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"The most important part of the republic to you whores is the fucking property!

The rights that Walker usurped and his disregard for proper legislative procedure and an open political process in doing it, not so much."

Private property rights are legitimate; imagined 'rights' supposedly 'usurped' by the governor don't even exist, except in the mind of the leftist.

MadisonMan said...

So this is how they treat "Our House"

Yes. For some definition of 'they'

Jim Treacher said...

Go ahead and cherish your beautiful golden calf of a state house. Lord knows that the crumbling public infrastructure everywhere else is not your concern. You scummy red staters might as well live in the landscape of Afghanistan. As long as the king's palace is immaculate and shiny, you're as happy as a bunch of regular Saddam Husseins. That's really all you are.

Mmm, the seething rage of the thwarted lefty. Delicious. This has been a good day.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Notice also the cuff's keyholes are facing the door, making picking them to remove them a bit more difficult.



Crimeny! Haven't you people ever heard of bolt cutters? Easy peasy removal tool.

Also. In addition to kicking in the door, it appears that they have urinated all over the door step.

Revenant said...

What kind of locks do the doors have? Does it take a key to unlock them from both sides, or can people on the "inside" just turn a latch? That would be a reason for people with keys to handcuff the doors shut -- to keep infiltrators from unlocking the doors.

My high school used to chain some of the doors shut for exactly that reason, until fire marshals made them stop.

sybilll said...

Oh come one. Everyone knows the "broken window fallacy" was dreamed up by John Stossel. See, someone will have to make the door panel, that will have to be packaged by someone, that will have to be shipped by someone......etc. Stimulus. Tada!

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@sybill

Uh oh.

Now Joe (the crypto jew) is gonna respond, he warned against bringing up Bastiat/broken window economics.

Property damage is a net loss. That it was created by a 'new civility' union thug protester is not a surprise, he/she is only following suit.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

SCOTUS affirms the right of collective bargaining. It doesn't have to say it exists in the constitution, just like the internet doesn't have to be mentioned in the constitution, in order for people to have a right to avail themselves of it.

If collective bargaining didn't exist, I'd love to see King George refuse to bargain with a bunch of founding heads of state, and instead insist that Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams et al each had to petition his case for national independence from Britain separately.

As it stands, the only thing you're standing for right now is the right of the state to enrich and empower itself. Nice going. I guess you're as libertarian as the other newbie Tea Partiers are - i.e. not very.

Fen said...

Oh, the horror, the horror.

Its all fun and games till someone catches on fire.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...

C4DH/Ritmo: You scummy red staters might as well live in the landscape of Afghanistan. As long as the king's palace is immaculate and shiny, you're as happy as a bunch of regular Saddam Husseins.

Do we get courtesans? I want coutesans. Dibs on Anne Hathaway!

Ritmo, you've become ridiculous.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"If collective bargaining didn't exist, I'd love to see King George refuse to bargain with a bunch of founding heads of state, and instead insist that Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams et al each had to petition his case for national independence from Britain separately."

That's not an argument. Hypotheticals in this case fall short.

"As it stands, the only thing you're standing for right now is the right of the state to enrich and empower itself. Nice going. I guess you're as libertarian as the other newbie Tea Partiers are - i.e. not very."

You have it wrong. I am for the empowerment of individuals, not groups, whether they be unions, governments, or otherwise.

For too long the unions have had too much power. What is your issue with a union getting a haircut, C4? Are you one of those Lilliputians that says this country was built by unions?

Please.

Fen said...

That reminds me, time for our PSA re Libtard Trolls:

For those who feel a need to waste their time responding to Ritmo: it's worth reposting a Ritmo comment from one earlier last week, displaying what he's up to at Althouse, and why he comments here:

Ritmo Brasileiro said: It's good to know that the stupidest threads are just ripe for the threadjacking. I'll be sure to leave a trail of turds on every one of the brain droppings here that suit my fancy. Getting you shit-eaters to complain about the taste after opening your mouths wide and saying "Ahhhh..." to every bad idea under the sun is very satisfying, I must admit.
- 10/16/10 10:28 AM


Now, back to our show.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"SCOTUS affirms the right of collective bargaining."

It's NOT a right. Its more a privilege, than anything.

The reason it is NOT a right is because the result of any collective bargaining agreement in terms of a public union has to be paid for by taxpayers.

The problem with it is, the taxpayers are not represented at collective bargaining. The taxpayers are the funding source. The funding is in the form of dollars, dollars are property, so we then have a usurpation of property.

And there is where collective bargain fails to be a 'right' exactly because it denies the property of other citizens.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

You have it wrong. I am for the empowerment of individuals, not groups, whether they be unions, governments, or otherwise.

Corporations are not only groups, they get the privileges of "persons" in a legal sense. Where the hell is your consistency on their "empowerment", or as you might laughably have me believe, lack thereof?

For too long the unions have had too much power.

Says who? By what benchmark? Do you really want child labor and a 72-hour workweek and no safety regulations in a metaphorical sense or is that your real stance and you just won't come out and admit to this primitive preference?

What is your issue with a union getting a haircut, C4?

I don't give a shit. If he saved jobs as well as money (except to his other johns, of course) so much the better. The problem is with his underhanded approach and in thinking that collective bargaining should go along with everything else.

Are you one of those Lilliputians that says this country was built by unions?

Our much improved quality of life that accompanied it was, but it's possible you consider that a sign of economic regression instead of the economic progress that it clearly represents.

Please.

You're welcome.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@Fen

Hat tip for your timely PSA.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

any collective bargaining agreement in terms of a public union has to be paid for by taxpayers.

Whose members also happen to be... wait for it.... wait for it.... TAXPAYERS!

The problem with it is, the taxpayers are not represented at collective bargaining.

They are represented at the ballot box. They are represented when the Republican they vote in rewards the special interest business groups that held a preference for their tax rates to be lowered as a condition of his election. It's still graft.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Fen just has no argument, is obsessed with me, and likes the acronym "PSA" because it reminds him of his prostate serum antigen test.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"Do you really want child labor and a 72-hour workweek and no safety regulations in a metaphorical sense"

Do you have a bag handy? Breathe, C4, breathe...now that's just silly. Of course not. Are you going to accuse me of wanting to breathe dirty air and drink dirty water, too???

"The problem is with his underhanded approach..."

No. The dems had every opportunity to negotiate for a better result. I'm not naive enough to believe the governor did anything that could be undone. Besides, the dems are the masters of 'underhanded'...
besides whats good for federal employees should be good for state ones too.

"Our much improved quality of life that accompanied it was, but it's possible you consider that a sign of economic regression instead of the economic progress that it clearly represents. "

My quality of life is not due to unions, Ritmo. I think you know better than that. But...maybe not so much.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"...likes the acronym "PSA" because it reminds him of his prostate serum antigen test."

Right.

4 0f 5 participants preferred Bayer to the leading analgesic.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

The dems had every opportunity to negotiate for a better result.

Bull. Assertion without evidence.

My quality of life is not due to unions.

Another blind assertion. If that's the case, and you still don't have a problem with a 40-hour standard workweek (with weekends, Thanks unions!), preventing unrestricted child labor, and safety regulations in general, then I have to assume you approve of those things for reasons that don't have to do with the greatly improved quality of life that they allowed for.

Quality of life is a social standard. You don't get to say that yours is separable from what we've decided is an acceptable minimal benchmark for the country as a whole. Otherwise you'd be scrapping yourself up from a lower starting point. (Unless you achieved your wealth the traditional way - by inheriting rather than working for it).

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Are you going to accuse me of wanting to breathe dirty air and drink dirty water, too???

It depends. How much would you like to weaken the EPA? A lot of corporatio -- I mean, "private individuals" -- wouldn't mind you breathing dirty air and drinking dirty water if it would help improve their bottom line.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"A lot of corporatio -- I mean, "private individuals" -- wouldn't mind you breathing dirty air and drinking dirty water if it would help improve their bottom line."

We should probably leave China out of this particular discussion, no?

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"Bull. Assertion without evidence. "

Bull. Showing up is 95% of life. You snooze, you lose.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"My quality of life is not due to unions.

Another blind assertion."

Tell me which union giant invented the flush toilet.

Tell me which union steward oversaw the development of the semiconductor.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Tell me which union giant invented the flush toilet.

72 hour work-weeks were not the norm when Thomas Crapper invented his device. I know shit is a real concern of yours, but shitty history is also a problem.

Tell me which union steward oversaw the development of the semiconductor.

I think it was that hippie Steve Jobs who was inspired to do anything useful with those things. And Google treats its employees a lot better and understands the value of their well-being and creativity much more than your union busters do. But that just widens your field of battle to the left generally. It's best, for your sake, to make sure your conclusions are as narrow as your arguments.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"A lot of corporatio -- I mean, "private individuals" -- wouldn't mind you breathing dirty air and drinking dirty water if it would help improve their bottom line."

Though I understand why you believe this is true - do you believe it is true 'across the board'?

Have you any experience running a legitimate business?

Do you really believe it is in the best interest of the business owner to poison his customers (I'm NOT saying it hasn't been done, I'm only 20 miles from Love Canal)?

Among ALL of the issues faced by a business owner, elimination of his potential customers isn't one of them.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I misjudged. A flushing toilet was actually first invented in 1596 -- way before the industrial revolution brought us 12 year-old kids dropping dead in coal mines, and other things that Don't Tread thinks leftists had nothing to do with ending.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"I know shit is a real concern of yours, but shitty history is also a problem. "

C4 I wouldn't shit you, you are my favorite turd.

"And Google.."

"It's best, for your sake.."

Thanks for the advice. Can I expect an invoice for this brilliance?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Well, it depends how long it takes to poison 'em, DT. If they don't drop dead overnight it's easier to hide the problems.

It also depends on how well they can hide the evidence of a link. Oftentimes they would like to perpetuate the ignorance so well that they convince themselves to believe it as well. The corporation that Erin Brokovich exposed has just been found to have a faulty system - again - for preventing the leaching of hexavalent chromium into the local drinking water. Bet'cha didn't see that one coming! Or did you?

The problem is with not taking these threats seriously and with bribing a certain political party in exchange for weakening a third party - a government agency that can be impartial and act on the benefit of the people. When that gets in the way of making money, of course the party with an interest in making money is going to do what they can to promote that as their sole concern.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"...and other things that Don't Tread thinks leftists had nothing to do with ending."

Right. Like ending the use of vegetables for eating only? Using zucchinis and such to show people how to use a condoms - an idea whose time has come!

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Can I expect an invoice for this brilliance?

If I only had even a nickel for every instance of it...

Your cost has been waived. Free of charge, DT. Consider it a necessary contribution to bettering the society that I haven't walled myself off from.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

At first I thought of cucumbers, but I guess zucchinis would work better, come to think of it...

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"If they don't drop dead overnight it's easier to hide the problems. "

Ah, there's nothing like the voice of experience to guide.

Very jocular, C4, you're talking about real people. Show a little fucking dignity will you?

Of course the utter stupidity of the early messes we made were an expensive and sad lesson - unfortunately there are areas ruined for decades because of it. No denying.

It should not be repeated.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"Your cost has been waived. Free of charge, DT."

Very generous, C4. As you were.

"...that I haven't walled myself off from."

This wall of yours, tell me - is it made of wooden door panels?

Elliott A said...

By definition, collective bargaining is an "adverserial negotiation" not a free love and back scratching contest. In Wisconsin, there hasn't been collective bargaining for years.

To the idiot unions: You rally before the election to elect your guy or gal. Duh..

To Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene: Get a new moniker. I do not appreciate such a clear insult to my profession.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Which profession, Elliott? The one embraced by Steve Martin as he punched out hygienists and such?

Obviously the point is in favor of good dental hygiene, something that neither dentists nor liberals should have a monopoly on promoting. And as long as you're going to bash unions, what role did being a member of your own guild have in your own professional success? None at all? Should we disband the ADA and not make licensing and regulation of dentistry contingent on the influence of professional organizations with union-like powers?

I can't hear you!

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

"Obviously the point is in favor of good dental hygiene..."

Very magnanimous C4...of course every conservative should understand this.

Perhaps I break out the Helen Thomas/Reporters for Non-Racist Reportage avatar? Fair?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I actually thought the Helen Thomas thing was funny.

Why so touchy on making an example of something obvious?

Buckley smoked 'til his teeth turned bright-dark yellow - obviously his right as a freedom-loving American, but not something without its own consequences.

I find my use of him as a metaphor for the threat posed by self-indulgent excesses to be a timely criticism. And a funny one regardless of political stripe - provided the audience is not in a Charlie Sheen level of narcissistic denial of the proper uses of humility - political or otherwise.

Elliott A said...

Licensing and regulation is the province of the state. The ADA (mostly worthless in my 31 years of practice) has virtually nothing to do with my attaining a profession. I worked hard, paid the dues and got where I am. I pay 100% of my health insurance (as well as 100% for my staff) provide my own retirement (and that of my staff) help 12 people earn a living, pay double social security and medicare taxes, and love what i do.

I don't bash unions, just their behavior. It is not ethical to give money to someone so that they become your boss. It is nepotism with an adopted relative. Not allowed in most workplaces. I was a teamster back in the day and resented the dues and the days I couldn't go to work because of strikes, or the time I was threatened becaused I worked too hard. That was so antithetical to any successful paradigm. So, my view of unions is personal. When union members no longer have forced dues witholding from paychecks, 90% drop out. Most of the teachers don't like them either. All of my teacher friends and patients are very happy there are no unions in Virginia for teachers.

Elliott A said...

Unions are much better suited to manufacturing than service

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

@C4

"...obviously his right as a freedom-loving American, but not something without its own consequences."

Yes. Freedom is (but not limited to) the ability to ignore the stupidity of your neighbor.

I have no issue with the avatar.

How about 'C4 the whitening of teeth'. Or, 'C4 a better nicotine stain remover'.

"Better dental hygiene' has such a clinical sound to it.

former law student said...

the taxpayers are not represented at collective bargaining.

Don't the taxpayers elect the school boards in Wisconsin? Where does this tread guy live, Costa Rica?

The noncitizen taxpayers can't elect the school board, of course, but somehow I can't picture tread wanting to rectify that unfairness.

former law student said...

Elliott: I figured C4 was exhorting the populace to practice better dental hygiene. No slam at any tooth professional.

former law student said...

pay double social security and medicare taxes,

Get a better accountant. You should be paying only 1.5X FICA and Medicare.

autothreads said...

Mmm, the seething rage of the thwarted lefty. Delicious. This has been a good day.

I felt the exact same sentiment when reading his tantrum.

"...and to hear the lamentation of their women. "

A good day indeed my friend.

autothreads said...

Another blind assertion. If that's the case, and you still don't have a problem with a 40-hour standard workweek (with weekends, Thanks unions!),

That's another one of organized labor's foundational myths. The 40 hour standard work week was implemented not by unions but by Henry Ford. First Ford reduced the work week from 6 full days to 5 1/2 9 hour days, recognizing the workers' need for a break from the drudgery of his factories. Then he realized that if he made the standard work week 5 eight hour days, who could run his plants 24 hours a day.

Ford also implemented a medical clinic for his employees and their families as early as 1913.

Wages in America were going up long before major industries were unionized. Again it was Henry Ford (not a saint by a long shot but you have to give the man his due) who instituted a $5/day wage more than 20 years before the UAW was successful in organizing the auto industry. I live in the Detroit area where the "battle of the Rouge overpass" when Harry Bennett's thugs and Walter Reuther's thugs had it out, and the Flint sit-down strike at GM are part of the local lore. Those events took place in 1936-37 more than two decades after Ford boosted pay to a then unheard of level for factory work. Ford was no altruist, his factories were terrible places to work, noisy, dirty, dangerous and mind numbing. Henry's great contribution to the concept of mass production was breaking assembly down to the simplest of tasks, which yielded high productivity but it was complete drudgery. As a result, FoMoCo had a 93% turnover rate with new hires. To keep his employees, Ford paid them more.

preventing unrestricted child labor,

Labor unions opposed child labor for the same reasons that they originally opposed civil rights for black people - they didn't want competition for their labor. In any case, this is another myth. Child labor went away not due to collective bargaining and negotiation but rather due to legislation. Labor may have endorsed that legislation, but organized labor didn't effect it.

and safety regulations in general,

Most safety regulations like OSHA (and state level equivalents) were enacted in the 1970s or later, already after organized labor in the private sector had started its decline.

Organized labor tolerated hand loaded stamping and punch presses for decades. They never once negotiated for safety systems on presses.

autothreads said...

cont'd

I'd say that the engineers who developed safety devices like interlock switches or IR motion sensors used in presses or the articulated arms used to carry heavy components in a modern assembly plant, had more to do with worker safety than unions.

Now I happen to know something about workplace safety. I worked for DuPont for over 20 years, in a lab filled with flammables and toxic chemicals. For six years I managed the lab's waste streams.

Now DuPont is an old company, over 200 years old, and for its first century it made mostly gunpowder and explosives (DuPont owned Remington Arms for a long time). Industrial safety was invented not by a labor union but by E.I. DuPont himself. Old E.I. made gunpowder and in the early 1800s, it wasn't unusual for companies to be paternalistic. The social compact that DuPont had with the workers in his powder mill on the banks of the Brandywine was that if they were killed on the job, he'd support their widows and orphans. So in a sense, E.I. DuPont was a pioneer in terms of employee disability and life insurance. Supporting families is expensive, though, and so is rebuilding a powder mill. So DuPont broke down the process of making gunpowder into discreet steps, building smaller mills for each step instead of one large mill. That way if there was a fire or explosion, it wouldn't destroy the entire enterprise. Each individual mill was built with three stone walls and one wooden wall, which faced the river. Today we'd call that wooden wall a blowout panel. Rebuilding mills was expensive. Allowing potential explosions to vent in the direction of the river reduced death, injury and the cost of rebuilding.

So you could also say that E.I. DuPont also invented industrial safety. He had a lot more to do with it than labor unions.

Ronnie Schreiber
CarsInDepth.com

autothreads said...

Tell me which union steward oversaw the development of the semiconductor.

I think it was that hippie Steve Jobs who was inspired to do anything useful with those things.


Actually, long before hippies like Jobs and Woz got to play with semiconductors, they were invented by big bad corporations like Bell and developed into useful product by warmongers like Hewlett and Packard.

And Google treats its employees a lot better and understands the value of their well-being and creativity much more than your union busters do.

You do know that Google employees do not have a union, don't you? Google also distributed stock to all their early employees when they first went public. I was friendly with the company chef who quit, sold some of his stock and opened up a restaurant. I guess it's only wrong when a corporate executive gets stock options and stock grants.

autothreads said...

way before the industrial revolution brought us 12 year-old kids dropping dead in coal mines,

Actually, before that, 12 year olds got killed working on the family farm. Life before the industrial revolution was not bucolic, it was short and brutal, fraught with injury and illness.

Frankly, I prefer dealing with automobile emissions than with streets filled with horse shit. Do you have any idea of how much arable land was used to feed work animals?

Also, you can thank the industrial revolution for women's liberation. Before Thomas Edison and things like washing machines, vacuum cleaners and electric clothes irons, women and girls spent most of their time doing chores. Electric home appliances made it possible for women to work outside the house.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Well, autothreads, I see your point. Especially if your point assumes that:

1. Henry Ford introduced not just a practice at his own company, but somehow forced it on others as an industry-wide and economy-wide standard. (Did Ford enact the legislation we now take for granted related to the length of the workweek, too? Just wondering).

1a. Oh, whoops! Actually, you're wrong. The labor movement pushed for limits on workweek as early as the late 18th century, and achieved success with this by the early 19th century. It became a central demand by the late 19th century. If anything, Ford was following a trend rather than setting one, which is the most you award him with doing anyway.

Encyclopedias can be your friend, too, my friend (you can even propose why it needs to be edited, if its conclusions don't conform to your proclaimed expertise). I suggest you keep the propaganda for someone more gullible next time.

2. Legislation improving the safety of the workplace needed (or benefited from) no endorsement from a powerful ally like labor to succeed.

3. Making auto emissions safer means that we will have be forced to rely on horses and buggies. I guess we can only do one thing or another, only two choices at most.

Other than that, it's good to know you agree with Treacher's sentiments declaring hatred of the left to be a higher and more patriotic calling than love of your country and the infrastructure that sustains it.

Elliott A said...

@fls- sorry so late. We are a corporation so we pay personally and the employer match. Not self employed.

Elliott A said...

@ fls- take a look at his profile foto. Better dental hygiene is low on the agenda

timoteo said...

this is CERTAINLY very serious. i'm glad you reported on this as we now know where Gov. Walker will spend the $7 million in damages on the capitol. seriously? you have nothing better to do?