Do you live there Ann? No. So its actually none of your business. So you should just shut up about it.On the other hand, this commenter (downtownlad) can say the poll supports his position. If you break out Manhattan, 51% support the mosque and 41% oppose it.
I however, DO vote in that district. I own property in that district. That is MY community board. And I wholeheartedly support that mosque. The vast majority of those in that district support the mosque. And there is another mosque just one block away.
And it is not the Ground Zero Mosque. You can't even see the mosque from Ground Zero.
There was zero controversy about this mosque until the bigots made a stink about this. And yes, you're siding with the bigots now.
Obviously you no zilch about New York City. You have no connections to New York City. You are not a voter in New York City.
This mosque is trying to build bridges with the community. That means community board #1, who support this.
It certain does not mean YOU or Sarah Palin's "fake America".
So the bigots should just mind their own business.
Muslims in Community Board #1 have the right to pray in their neighborhood.
***
And while we're on the subject of the mosque, did you hear Mark Steyn on the subject (as he was guest-hosting on the Rush Limbaugh show yesterday)? I can't find a transcript or long enough audio clip. He doesn't so much care about building the mosque. He's more concerned with the failure to rebuild on the WTC site and where Imam Rauf gets his money. Perhaps opposition to the mosque is displaced disappointment with America's failure to demonstrate its strength and its values with a dramatic, finished, brilliant architectural achievement that dominates lower Manhattan. It's been 10 years.
Posts
95 comments:
There was zero controversy about this mosque until the bigots made a stink about this. And yes, you're siding with the bigots now.
I work in Manhattan. Don't have a fixed opinion on whether the mosque should be built.
There is plenty of reason to be worried that the mosque will be used to shuttle funds to terrorist organizations and to foment jihad. That's been true in the past in mosques in the city.
This commenter, however, is a gold plated fucking sanctimonious asshole.
I'm so tired of the bigot routine, that I'm ready to drag this bastard out behind the barn and beat the shit out of him (or her).
This lowlife, fucking behavior is appalling.
I suggest beatings for all Bigot Hunters until they shut up.
Bigot Hunters, when are you going to shut the fuck up?
This mosque is trying to build bridges with the community.
I'll say it again, we're not the ones who need a bridge built, its the Muslim world, particularly in the Middle East that needs to build a bridge with the rest of the 'community'. Its like that COEXIST bumper sticker; every religion depicted on that stupid thing coexists pretty nicely except one.
I'm all for building bridges and if the purpose of this mosque/community center is to do that, perhaps it would be better located in Ridayh or Islamabad in order to show Western tolerance for other religions.
Good 'ol DTL, he's all about building bridges with folks who are different from him.
I thought DTL had decreed that since we don't live there we're not able to comment on this. What are you people thinking going against his rules?
DTL,
I've worked and/or lived in Manhattan for 35 years.
What in the fuck is wrong with you, asshole?
Why are you such a sanctimonious asshole?
What does that damned halo you like to wear got to do with anything, except your hideous ego?
I think that there's is a lot to the argument that, if we had a beautiful building at Ground Zero, the Mosque would be less controversial.
"It's been 10 years. "
Mosque or not, that is embarrassing and totally consistent with government ability to get real things done anymore. The institution of government has declined to the point of only being effective at collecting and spending other people's money.
A pathetic trough full of Soylent Green, run by narcissistic nannies.
The Goodthinkers (like dtl) say its a local matter and us flyover rubes have no say. If New Yorkers can't be bothered to build something on the WTC site after nine years then as far as I'm concerned Imam Rauf can build a "Grand-Jihad-Death-to-Infidels-Victory-Up-Yours Mosque right next to it.
Dood!
Try 67%
That's 2/3 by the way. Not 50%
So, if I don't live in Manhattan but I do know 4 people my age who died that day, I have no right to share my opinion? Makes sense.
The NYT editorial bewailing the poll results made delightful reading.
A majority of liberal NYC opposes the mosque and the NYT still paints opponents as primitive bigots. Which represents a extremist fringe, a majority of New Yorkers or the NYT editorial board?
"And while we're on the subject of the mosque, did you hear Mark Steyn on the subject (as he was guest-hosting on the Rush Limbaugh show yesterday)?"
YES, and Steyn is LOL wickedly funny (though appropriately sober for this subject). I don't know if he could keep his energy level and the quality of his material up 5 days a week but he should have his own show.
Honestly...how embarrassing would it be if a couple years from now, that mosque/community center is a done deal and fully completed and active, while Ground Zero is still a gaping hole? Can anyone say Decline?
Could you build part of a presidential run successfully around promising to get it completed asap?
"Could you build part of a presidential run successfully around promising to get it completed asap?"
How could anyone running for mayor of NYC or Governor of NY not do it.
But they have and will continue to do so.
I love reading Steyn and believe he is probably the best writer out there but in all honesty, his voice grates on me. He's also not all that great on radio either which proves to me that being a very skilled writer does not translate into being a good speaker/orator.
I recommend all of his books; especially Passing Parade. Great stuff.
Steyn nails it (again). Which culture is showing confidence and forward thinking?
It's Islam. Granted, the Muslims who want to build this community center may be the good type (moderate?), but, apart from a few, moderate Muslims have a hard time condemning the excesses of their more radical brethren.
I'd feel more confident in all this if Hamas were roundly condemned by those involved.
"his voice grates on me..."
For me,his goofy voice only amplifies his humor.
Other NYC polls are even more critical of the Cordoba House than that NYT poll. I would assume the NYTs would pick the most favorable poll to the project, and the best they could find it against it by a plurality.
It is becoming apparent that these promoters are real estate scammers and that they have no funding for this thing. They should get smart and cut a deal while a deal can be cut and move the project.
I spent most of my life in NYC. There are no residences, apart from hotels, where the WTC was. That commenter is full of it! If there is already a mosque in the area, why can't Muslims pray in it? Does the commenter truly expect us to believe that there are 1,000 plus Muslims living in that area who need an insult to Americans in which to pray? There are 100 mosques in NYC, and I very much doubt that there are enough Muslims to fill those 100 mosques. What we have is a Muslim masquerading as an innocent bystander and being pissed because AMERICANS don't like the idea of Muslims doing a victory lap at Ground Zero. What happened in NY wasn't an attack on NY. It was an attack against the United States of America. So let that commenter sit on his damn scimitar and swivel! My passport says US of A, and I have the right to comment on an issue like this!
Bigot, my ass! We're always being asked to respect the sensibilities of a bunch of frickin' 7th century cavemen. When in hell are they ever going to regard the sensibilities of someone else but themselves? Never, because they are superiorist in spite of their retrograde ideological practices. They think they have a right to kill us and rub our faces in it, and then they use our laws against us to make sure they rub our faces in it. THen, should they ever predominate in this land, they will flush our Constitution down the toilet and attempt to erase every smidgen of our Judaeo-Christian heritage from this land.
Where is this asshole commenter on the rebuilding of the Orthodox Church which was destroyed? The OC was there long before any Muslim raised his ass in the air in that district. The city screwed the OC over with their permits, denied them the right to rebuild, and is kissing Islamic ass with big fat lips! Where is this commenter on the obvious anti-Christian bigotry by the mayor and city council of NY with its pack of leftist racists and bigots?
Frankly, as a Libertarian, private property rights trump hurt feelings, so I don't object to Park51/Cordoba House.
I have to be consistent in my beliefs, or I become just another hypocrite.
Now, if they channel funds to terrorist orgs, shut their asses down.
Why does she start with "Do you live THERE?"
Would it not be "Do you live HERE?".
She probably lives in Connecticut.
Granted, the Muslims who want to build this community center may be the good type (moderate?), but, apart from a few, moderate Muslims have a hard time condemning the excesses of their more radical brethren.
This is my point exactly. The bridge doesn't need to be built between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim Americans but with moderate Muslims and the more 'excitable' members of thier faith.
Perhaps a building a bridge between Muslims who assimilate in the West and those Muslims who live in the ME would go far in demonstrating that we aren't a den of devils.
It's been 10 years.
Well, to be precise, it's been 3 long years.
Times three.
I grew up in Ct. and know many people directly touched by 9/11. This poll is only a shock to me in that more NY'ers don't oppose the mosque. For so many folks in that area it's personal.
Rauf talks out of both sides of his mouth. The mosque is clearly about Moslem triumphalism and probably shouldn't be built, but, if dtl feels only Noo Yawkuhs have the right to comment, anytime he has something to say about anything outside Gotham, we should all beat him up.
Verbally, of course.
Scott M said...
Honestly...how embarrassing would it be if a couple years from now, that mosque/community center is a done deal and fully completed and active, while Ground Zero is still a gaping hole? Can anyone say Decline?
Can you say enviro-nuts?
Otherwise, a very good point.
WV "nestr" What cowboys used to use for target practice.
Lileks nailed it last year when he said
We could stand there once. That we couldn’t stand there eight years ago was their fault. That we cannot stand there today is ours.
There should be a fucking 130 story tower there — tall, majestic and shining in the night. Call it the Freedom Tower or the Fuck You tower.
Let them build the Cordoba House. But put it in constant shadow.
Rule number one of building bridges between people. If your idea of building bridges involves pissing off 50% of the population who are offended by the gesture, then maybe you're not doing it right.
And I'm still trying to figure out what bridge needs to be built in the first place. Are they building bridges to connect to our community because they are trying to show that all muslims are not terrorists and are putting up a building as a gesture of hospitality or are they building a bridge so that we can connect to theirs so that we can show that we are not bigoted towards muslims which is a lesson we need to learn as we are an intolerant bunch. Something tells me that it's the latter.
I say build the mosque. This is America after all.
Then build a Muslim friendly gay bar next door, a Heavenly Ham franchise across the street, and a Christian outreach to Islam on the other side.
Welcome to New York!
This is America after all.
And don't put dtl's borderline drivel up on the front, I can't skip the crap when you do that.
Trey
Ground zero was the site where militant Muslims murdered thousands of non-believers. If there is one place in the world where Muslims are not entitled to act self righteous about their religion, it is at ground zero.....Any building that goes up at ground zero will have a big, fat bullseye painted on its side. That is part of the reason for the delay in reconstruction. Many thousands of Muslims worldwide will feel a religious obligation to take the new building down. Whether or not a mosque goes up on the proposed site will have no effect on their judgement.....Michael Collins and the IRA used to establish schools for the teaching of Gaelic. The schools did not preach any revolutionary doctrines. Only Gaelic was studied. However, those who studied Gaelic were sympathetic to the cause of Irish nationalism. The IRA infiltrated the schools and were able to isolate and recruit those who could be most useful to their cause. I understand that there is some paranoia in this statement, but a mosque close to ground zero offers possibilities for gathering information useful for the destruction of the WTC replacement......The Times breaks down the religion and income demographic of the supporters and opponents of the mosque, but they are strangely mute on the racial and ethnic components. I live in NY. I get the sense that blacks and immigrants are more supportive of the mosque than whites.
The "developers" of this proposed facility do not, repeat, do not have the funds to build it. They do not have the plans. They do not have the specifications. They do not have hard cost estimates. They do not have a construction contract. They do not have a construction loan. If they are left alone from here forward this will die its own death.
You No Zilch meets Yo Yo Mah.
wv: flogies: fogies with flem.
William - Why would muslims, of all people, feel an obligation to take the GZM down? Makes no sense.
There was zero controversy about this mosque until the bigots made a stink about this.
Oh fuck you. Its a Trophy Mosque.
Read some frickin history.
how embarrassing would it be if a couple years from now, that mosque/community center is a done deal and fully completed and active -
- and has been hiding Yaser Abdel Said.
Perhaps opposition to the mosque is displaced disappointment with America's failure to demonstrate its strength and its values with a dramatic, finished, brilliant architectural achievement that dominates lower Manhattan. It's been 10 years.
It's not America's failure, it's New York City's failure. We're talking about a city where even the simplest projects take an eternity. Examples: 14 years to build a high school (LaGuardia High School on Amsterdam Avenue), three-plus years to pave a mile-long section of street (Columbus Avenue), and seven years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel (the connection between the 63rd Street subway tunnel and the Queens Boulevard mainline). Oh, and let's not forget the Second Avenue Subway: it was planned in the 1920's, a perfectly usable elevated line was demolished in the 1930's in anticipation of its completion, it was paid for twice without any significant work being done, and according to the latest predictions it won't be completed until sometime after 2025.
I have no doubts whatsoever that if the 9/11 attackers had flown airplanes into, say, Epcot Center, the Mall of America and the MGM Grand, all rebuilding work would have been completed within a year or two.
Peter
Perhaps opposition to the mosque is displaced disappointment with America's failure to demonstrate its strength and its values with a dramatic, finished, brilliant architectural achievement that dominates lower Manhattan. It's been 10 years.
It's not America's failure, it's New York City's failure. We're talking about a city where even the simplest projects take an eternity. Examples: 14 years to build a high school (LaGuardia High School on Amsterdam Avenue), three-plus years to pave a mile-long section of street (Columbus Avenue), and seven years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel (the connection between the 63rd Street subway tunnel and the Queens Boulevard mainline). Oh, and let's not forget the Second Avenue Subway: it was planned in the 1920's, a perfectly usable elevated line was demolished in the 1930's in anticipation of its completion, it was paid for twice without any significant work being done, and according to the latest predictions it won't be completed until sometime after 2025.
I have no doubts whatsoever that if the 9/11 attackers had flown airplanes into, say, Epcot Center, the Mall of America and the MGM Grand, all rebuilding work would have been completed within a year or two.
Peter
I think you're right, Ann. The mosque is emblematic of our culture's weakened will to survive.
If there will be no mosque, is this next?
Praying in the Streets
Did downtownlad move back here to the City? Last I saw of him, he was making big noises about decamping to Asia, though that was some time ago.
"I however, DO vote in that district. I own property in that district."
Didn't DTL make a big deal a while back about moving to Thailand or some such Asian country?
His statements stand out that he "votes in that district" and "owns property in that district" but he doesn't say he actually lives in that district anymore.
"Frankly, as a Libertarian, private property rights trump hurt feelings, so I don't object to Park51/Cordoba House."
But you are confusing the issue. Just because it's legal doesn't make it a good idea. I have a legal right to say to my wife "You are a fucking cunt." That legal right makes it neither wise nor proper.
PatCA said...
I think you're right, Ann. The mosque is emblematic of our culture's weakened will to survive.
I think it has more to say about the Lefties' hatred of themselves and this country, along with the people who love it, than the country as a whole - and the Lefties' weakened will to survive.
Which is why there is a Tea Party movement.
Waiting for Wack in 4, 3, 2...
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
Chesterton
- A Short History of England
This poll just illustrates what I was saying yesterday on another comment thread, to wit, "people are the same all over."
No one ever said NYC was not full of bigots, and this poll proves it.
All the self-justifying "I'm not a bigot, I'm just concerned about community sensitivies" harumphing from "reasonable people" notwithstanding, opposition to this Muslim community center is bigotry and nothing else.
..opposition to this Muslim community center is bigotry and nothing else.
Krauthammer portrays this as a cynical game: "Note what connects these issues. In every one, liberals have lost the argument in the court of public opinion.... What's a liberal to do? Pull out the bigotry charge, the trump that preempts debate and gives no credit to the seriousness and substance of the contrary argument."
ricpic: I did not mean to say that Muslims would wish to destroy the ground zero mosque. I was pointing out that a significant, if small minority of Muslims will consider it a religious obligation to destroy whatever building(s) will be constructed to replace the WTC buildings. The construction of the mosque will not diminish their resolve and may very well be useful in the enactment of their wishes......The construction of the mosque is not a diffident gesture towards reconciliation but a high five celebration of pride and self righteousness. I would ask the liberals here what building the Catholic Church can construct at the site of the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre to mark the occasion and mourn the pain? Would a new church be the appropriate building?
Since the GZM is intended to stimulate interfaith dialog, we shouldn't just leave it sitting there all alone with no one to dialog with. I think a gay bar on one side and a Satriale's Pork Store (like on the Sopranos, with the cool pig hanging outside) on the other would really help stimulate some dialog.
All the self-justifying "I'm not a bigot, I'm just concerned about community sensitivies" harumphing from "reasonable people" notwithstanding, opposition to this Muslim community center is bigotry and nothing else.
I'm not concerned about you at all, Robert.
You should go fuck yourself, you idiot Stalinist.
Why do you make an ass out yourself like this?
Paddy O wrote (of Downtown lad):
His statements stand out that he "votes in that district" and "owns property in that district" but he doesn't say he actually lives in that district anymore.
Wait a second? Downtown lad lives in more than one place and travels to faraway countries using airplanes?
Talk about greedily using resources and energy (most likely of a fossil nature). What about global warming? Shouldn't DTL have to give up at least one of those houses, in the interest of the environment? And forgo travelling between the two areas? The environmental cost is just too great! His carbon footprint must be enormous.
Also, why does he have two houses when others have none. Shouln't he share the wealth a little?
@cookie:
"..This poll just illustrates what I was saying yesterday on another comment thread, to wit, "people are the same all over."
You couldn't be more wrong this kind of bigotry would never be displayed in Cuba.
I heard Stein talking about it. He fisked a couple of callers who talked about the funding of the Imam. He's great when he sits in for Rush.
Robert Cook wrote:
This poll just illustrates what I was saying yesterday on another comment thread, to wit, "people are the same all over."
xNo one ever said NYC was not full of bigots, and this poll proves it.
All the self-justifying "I'm not a bigot, I'm just concerned about community sensitivies" harumphing from "reasonable people" notwithstanding, opposition to this Muslim community center is bigotry and nothing else.
If people are the same all over why are you holding them responsible for being bigots? People are bigots and they don't change. Ergo, they are still bigots. Why then are you expecting anything other than the status quo? there are also people who 2000 years ago (as well as today) accuse others of bigotry for things every time those people disagree with them. And these bigot criers don't change either. If people are the same all over then you screaming about people not changing is both meaningless and futile so why are you doing it?
The lefts cynical game..
Opposition to Obamacare = Obama is black so the opposition must be racist.
Opposition to lax immigration enforcement = Nativism against Mexicans
Opposition to same sex marriage = homophobia
Opposition to the Ground Zero Mosque = Ilamophobia
The idea that opposition to something is branded deceased, somehow less than human grants permission to the few to replace the will of the majority with their own.
Granted I personally dont want the government to get involved in the Ground Zero Mosque controversy.. I do wish we could find a way to legally convince them to build elsewhere.
If "building a bridge" is what they truly seek what better start than a conciliatory gesture.
"opposition to this Muslim community center is bigotry and nothing else."
Opposing a group for behaving like tasteless and boorish jackasses is not remotely bigotry.
They say they want to "build a bridge" between communities.
The Majority in one side of the bridge says - you know, you have the right to build the bridge there but we rather you don't. Could you build the bridge somewhere else?
The other side comes back.. No can do.. We are building the bridge to be closer to you there.. like it or not.
Makes me question the "bridge" rhetoric as nothing less than unmitigated bs.
Over at Powerline, a week or so ago, they clarified what this "bigot" idiocy is all about.
It is the extension of the Soviet Union's policy of branding all opposition as a form of mental illness.
The left never changes.
"It is the extension of the Soviet Union's policy of branding all opposition as a form of mental illness."
Cue Ritmo waltzing in to proclaim the truth of this assertion Repeating the same, stale mid-1940s crap that leftist academics still push to this very day.
Oddly, DTL has never been disinclined to voice his opinions about anything, going on anywhere beyond lower Manhatten.
And really WTH, its not like only people from his little district were affected by the WTC attacks, only people from his little district responded in many different ways in support of his little district. He wasn't excluding that input from outside.
"Opposition to Obamacare = Obama is black so the opposition must be racist."
No. "Obamacare," so-called, is a gift to the big pharmaceutical and health insurance companies, and will provide very little for a very lot. It does not solve the problem of Americans bankrupted or condemned to death or impaired lives because they cannot afford health care, and it transfers even more wealth from our pockets into the corporate coffers. FAIL.
"Opposition to lax immigration enforcement = Nativism against Mexicans"
This depends on the circumstances, I suppose.
"Opposition to same sex marriage = homophobia"
Yes.
"Opposition to the Ground Zero Mosque = Ilamophobia"
Yes.
"Opposing a group for behaving like tasteless and boorish jackasses is not remotely bigotry."
And who, here, is behaving like tasteless, boorish jackasses?
The opponents of the Muslim Community center.
"Opposition to same sex marriage = homophobia"
Yes.
Opposition to polygamy would also constitute bigotry in your book then as well, yes?
Robert Cook, the decrepit old Stalinist wants to give lectures about manners and taste.
What a dumb fuck!
Been humping the corpse of Pol Pot?
Calling out old Stalinist turds like Robert Cook is a moral imperative.
Will you shut up, you old Stalinist goon!
"Perhaps opposition to the mosque is displaced disappointment with America's failure to demonstrate its strength and its values with a dramatic, finished, brilliant architectural achievement that dominates lower Manhattan. It's been 10 years."
President Bush on Sept 12 to a gathering of "heroes" and powerful NYC people:
THe People Who Tore THese Buildings Down Will Soon Hear From US!!
Well, maximum Beloved War Leader Bush did dust the Taliban, but then flitted off talking about the Religion of Peace, "women of cover" and bonding with Neocons in sticking and bogging America down with two eternal wars for democratizing and nation-building two resentful angry nations. Pissing away lives and treasure.
Bush and Rudy's beloved "heroes" soon discovered the endless claims of victimhood made for retirement at full pay, special injury awards. Non-government workers at the site - the engineers and ironworkers - soon marvelled at Rudy's Heroes delicate lungs and constitutions and expressed surprise the Heroes could even physically show up at the rubble site given their endless maladies later.
The powerful NYC people soon became the champions of enemy rights, endless Talmudic due process over rebuilding the WTC Site or trying the Islamoids behind 9/11. Progressive Jews of the Media and the ACLU became convinced America was a greater threat than the radical Muslims.
The people that orchestrated the global financial meltdown from NYC insisted that Victimhood mattered more than rebuilding.
It's almost a shame that Bush Didn't say:
"The People that tore this place down will soon hear our apologies and our endless obligation to help and blow 50,000 casualties and 1.1 Trillion in treasure to nation-build them. All you uniformed government employee Heroes will soon retire semi-rich to Florida after 2 initial years of free meals, free entertainment tickets, corporate-paid vacations, and other fabulous perks of VIP treatment.
All you powerful NYC people will cause greater damage to America in 2008 than the Al Qaeda people could ever imagine inflicting. And all you progressive Jews will soon see the 9/11 crisis as an opportunity to weaken and divide us - block 9/11 rebuilding, bash any effort to protect the country, champion Islamoid rights!
And...I ...I bet a frigging Mosque will get built here before any new building to replace a single lost WTC structure is finished!!...I see this place still a noble holy Pit a decade from now as the Mournathon continues, flowers are cast into the hole, and dumb ceremonies reciting victim names goes on as interminably. As lawyers fighting building permits and arguing for the rights of the 9/11 masterminds goes on ten years from this day.
Steyn is likely part right. We are collectively embarassed and ashamed about how poorly America performed after 9/11...and deflect some of that anger on a huge Mosque rising before any Pit construction project is over.
Whole flattened cities in Europe and Asia were rebuilt in 5 years. We can't even handle fixing one small destroyed city block we pathetically call "Ground Zero" in a decade and appear to lack the money anymore to do it. Before America was subverted with Talmudic endless due process replacing quick and mostly fair law....we built the Empire State Building from 1st shovel of dirt to finished in 390 days at the height of the Depression.
We finished the major war crimes trials of tens of thousands of Germans and Japs in under two years.
We should be embarassed!
I own an apartment 6 blocks north of the Park51/Ground Zero Victory Mosque site. I vote in the district. CB1 is my community board too.
And I don't support the mosque.
This is just another example of the type of "nobody I know voted for him" cluelessness that makes people think New Yorkers are delusional morons.
BTW - http://www.theonion.com/articles/84-million-new-yorkers-suddenly-realize-new-york-c,18003/
^ hilarious.
Your Manhattanite commenter should be happy to support reversing Roe v. Wade and leaving abortion regukation to States and localities, then... right?
Ditto federal involvement in affirmative action, environmental regulation and a host of other things.
I mean, fair is fair.
"And who, here, is behaving like tasteless, boorish jackasses?"
The old "I'm rubber and you're glue!" tactic. Devastating.
Well, maybe the mosque should be buildt where it's really wanted, a place that doesn't have much moral backbone, Mecca!
We should be embarassed!
Strange, I don't feel embarrassment. I feel rage.
Maybe I'll feel bargaining next.
Man, downtownlad has a tag and I still don't. I need to step it up.
If emulating DTL is what it takes, I don't want a tag.
Briefly caught Randi "Air America" Rhodes' act today surfing the dial on the road. She was comparing anti-mosque types to the segregationist Bull-Conner types of the 60s, saying that just as they were wrong about blacks, etc., the anti-mosque types are just as wrong about Muslims--that just as the maj of whites were wrong about blacks then, the anti-Muslim/mosque majorities are equally wrong today, etc. Listening to a dullard like Randi, a supposedly ardent feminist, make common cause with Islamic feudalists (given their "progressive" views on women) was worth putting up with her grating nasal-voiced rantings.....almost.
"The old 'I'm rubber and you're glue!' tactic. Devastating."
To the contrary...it's a plain statement of fact.
You assert that the Muslims are behaving as boorish jackasses...some examples, please? On the other hand, we are seeing, for example, the anti-Muslim community center protestors behaving as a mob does, even shouting insults at a man whom they assumed incorrectly to be a Muslim...as if, even if he were, that justified their ugly verbal harrassment of him.
The American Muslim community has demonstrated great forbearance and restraint throughout this shameful slander on their character--or very possibly, fear of the xenophobia and potential violence of the unleashed American id as revealed in the bigots who assume all Muslims are terrorists.
Robert Cook wrote:
You assert that the Muslims are behaving as boorish jackasses...some examples, please? On the other hand, we are seeing, for example, the anti-Muslim community center protestors behaving as a mob does, even shouting insults at a man whom they assumed incorrectly to be a Muslim...as if, even if he were, that justified their ugly verbal harrassment of him.
Like it or not the idea of building a mosque at ground zero is offensive to many, dangerous to many and in bad tasete to many. To not honor the hurt this decision causes becuase of hte need to teach US a lesson in tolerance is boorish. We're not the ones needing a lesson in tolerance.
"Revenant said...
Man, downtownlad has a tag and I still don't. I need to step it up."
You have to follow in garage mahal's footsteps.
But it does involve roadkill.
"We're not the ones needing a lesson in tolerance."
Yes, we're exactly the ones who need a lesson in tolerance, particularly since we flatter ourselves we are the most tolerant nation on the planet.
If we didn't claim to be tolerant, then we'd be off the hook for it and could act like everyone else does.
But who'd get beat up for doing what everyone else does then?
It's a service.
I'd also like to know who, in the whole world is more tolerant than the United States.
Suggestions?
Even lovely Europe has political gag rules and outlawed speech.
"Yes, we're exactly the ones who need a lesson in tolerance, particularly since we flatter ourselves we are the most tolerant nation on the planet."
Oh yes, Robert Cook, once again you've spoken truth to power and shown us how we are so intolerant, so stained with crimes, that compared with us, Saudi Arabia is a beacon of enlightenment. And how worthy the saudis are to teach us lessons in tolerance.
Robert Cook: Good grief, when that tolerant Egyptian father in Texas killed his two young daughters a couple years ago for dating and then ran off and hid, tolerance was the exact thought I had.
Wow - A surprisingly fair and balanced post by Ann. For real. I am shocked.
Not only do Manhattanites favor the construction of the Mosque, but I can absolutely guarantee you that support in Community Board #1 (the part of Lower Manhattan that includes the World Trade Center site) would be even more supportive of the project.
But the best part of the poll is this.
"Should politicians from outside New York take a stand?"
The response - 64% say no.
In other words IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Stop destroying our neighborhood, by forcing all normal remnants of a neighborhood (bars, museums, places of worship, restaurants) to be banished from Lower Manhattan.
The next target from the right will be stopping the construction of an Arts Center in Lower Manhattan. They already stopped the Freedom Center Museum, and now the the wingnuts are gearing up to to stop the construction of a Frank Gehry museum as well. They are going to go all out to stop anyone in Lower Manhattan from ever having any fun. STOP RUINING MY NEIGHBORHOOD WITH YOUR UNASKED FOR INTERFERENCE.
4.7% of New York State is Muslim. Considering that a million people live and work in Lower Manhattan - it makes perfect sense that prayer space be allowed there. These people had NOTHING to do with the attacks on the trade center site, so why should their private property and religious rights be infringed upon.
The Burlington Coat Factory site, several blocks from ground zero, is ALREADY being used as a Muslim Prayer space. Why do I care if they spiff up the site with a nice clean, modern design, a restaurant on the ground floor and community space for ALL religions. It will ENHANCE my neighborhood and make it a better place to live, which is why I support it. That's why people in my community board support this as well. Because they understand the neighborhood and realize that a mosque several blocks away from ground zero is a completely different neighborhood than Ground Zero. Battery Park City and Tribeca are two blocks away from Ground Zero and that is certainly NOT Ground zero. Far from it. Lower Manhattanites know this. Staten islanders do not.
And I was 100% right about Ann knowing nothing about New York City. If she did know anything, she would realize that a huge amount of progress has been made in the reconstruction of the World Trade Center site.
Freedom Tower is already 40% taller than the tallest building in Madison, Wisconsin. It is taller than the tallest buildings in 15 states.
7 World Trade Center is already rebuilt and occupied. It is taller than the tallest building in 36 states.
They are already planting trees at the World Trade Center memorial, which will open in a year's time.
A ton of progress has been made. Those in Community Board #1 know that. Not surprising. Those in Community Board #1 live there.
This is not a hole in the ground.
It starts getting glass in October.
Here is video of trees being planted at the WTC Memorial in New York:
And it has been 9 years since the attacks, not 10. By the 10 year anniversary the memorial will be complete and Freedom Tower will be a monster of a building.
Prediction - At the 10 year anniversary - Republicans will still be complaining that there has been no progress on the WTC Construction site and that it is still just a "hole in the ground".
That's what happens when you don't live in a reality based world. That's what happens when you no nothing about the neighborhood.
A great article from my local paper about how the neighborhood views the Mosque. Money quote:
“It’s always frustrating to see people who aren’t New Yorkers, from outside the state even, try to weigh in on what should or should not be occurring in Lower Manhattan,” CB1 chairwoman Julie Menin told the Trib. “If anyone is concerned about what happens in our neighborhood, I would love for them to come to our meetings and have a dialogue with us.”
A few commenters suppose we're the acme of human and cultural tolerance because other nations may be pointed to as being being more intolerant than we, or, more beside the point, American citizens (or residents) of foreign nationalities have exercised violently intolerant behavior in anecdotal instances.
This is not an athletic competition, where the least brutish among a field of brutes is crowned the "King of Compassion," or where the least obese among a pride of fatties is deemed "Mr. (or Ms.) Perfect Health." Our adolescent obsession with sports and sports metaphors has us seeing everything in binary terms: winners and losers. "We're the best because we're not the worst!"
We claim to be the shining city on the hill for the rest of the world, the ideal democratic and egalitarian society that all others should admire and follow, allowing our citizens the greatest freedoms, blessed with the most liberal (cough) civil liberties and protections of individual rights than is or ever has been in the world.
To say the least, we fall far from our own ideals...and this is in the nature of human beings and human societies everywhere. Our challenge--and obligation--is not to boast of how wonderful we are in comparison to the failings of other countries, but to see clearly how poorly we adhere to our own self-professed (and institutionally established) ideals and principles.
And, to be sure, we have always fallen far short of what we claim to be. We will never achieve the ideal, by definition, but we must always strive to arrive as close to that state as we can, and that requires a frankly honest look at who and where we actually are at any given time. Slavery did not just slough away in America as a result of our natural recognition of its horror; it was arrested only by means of a brutally destructive civil war. Suffrage for blacks (and women) did not come about through the natural largesse of the powers that be, but through the efforts of people who fought (and sometimes died) to obtain it.
Humans are savage animals, and Americans no less so than any that have ever lived. (That Americans have recently been exerting torture on other humans proves that, for those naive enough to doubt it.) Our prosperity--waning now--and our Constitution and system of law have allowed us greater freedom from many of the ills that beset other nations, but it is all relative, and all is in perpetual flux. (To return to the sports metaphors: last year's winners of the Super Bowl may easily be this year's also rans.) We are only as "good" and as tolerant as we are at this moment and in this instance. A bully and a bigot doesn't get a free pass because he loves his children or is nice to old folks.
A bully and a bigot doesn't get a free pass because he loves his children or is nice to old folks.
An old Stalinist stooge doesn't get a free pass because he phrases his idiot ideology in coherent English, either.
Hasn't somebody produced a GULAG computer game? You could be setting up your own camps in Siberia right now, Cookie.
It’s always frustrating to see people who aren’t New Yorkers, from outside the state even, try to weigh in on what should or should not be occurring in Lower Manhattan
Ground Zero doesn't belong to NYC.
I dont hear you complaining when "outsiders" provide an aircap over your neighborhood.
Its a Trophy Mosque. Just because you live near it doens't give you the right to surrender in our name.
Aside from the fact that NYC touts itself as the cultural/financial capitol of THE ENTIRE NATION (if not the entire universe) and NOT just "another city" about which the rest of us should keep our nose's clean--not to mention the universalist connotations represented by the Statue of Liberty--I would only say that on this subject both downtownlad and Robert Cook are suicidaly naive.
... I would only say that on this subject both downtownlad and Robert Cook are suicidaly naive.
Cook isn't naive.
He's a Stalinist stooge. He hates the U.S. and democracy. He wants to see the jihadis destroy America.
The hard reality at the core of the controversy surrounding the choice of location for the Park51/Cordoba Project is not constitutional - rather, it is that Islam over the past several decades has by its words and deeds legitimately earned a significant amount of distrust among the vast majority of Americans.
And in their hearts and minds those Americans are exercising their rights to hold Islam accountable for that choice.
Whether any of us like it or not, the Park51/Cordoba Project is shaping up to become a pivotal point in the relationship between Islam in America and the rest of America.
@F15C: Well said and a view I hold also!
Cheers!
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