August 16, 2010

"Michael Bloomberg tells people where to smoke and where to walk in Times Square, how much fat they can have in their food..."

"... how much fat they can have in their food, bullies anybody who gets in his way. Now anybody who disagrees with him on the building of this mosque is against freedom of religion and the First Amendment. Why? Because Bloomberg stamps his foot and says so, that's why."

45 comments:

AlphaLiberal said...

Stopping the building of a house of worship is a violation of the First Amendment. You think not, Professor? Why not make your case instead of repeating juvenile snarking?

Why does Law Professor Ann Althouse think it is NOT a violation of the freedom of religion to stop (moderate) Muslims from building a house of worship?

Scott M said...

That depends, Alpha. There appears to be some discrepancies regarding the public hearings that are a normal part of any new building project in that (or, to varying degrees, any municipality). If that is that case, there is some legal hay to be made here.

Just out of curiosity, why was the Orthodox church that was destroyed not allowed to rebuild?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Stopping the building of a house of worship is a violation of the First Amendment.

If it were the government stopping it you would be correct. If it is stopped by pressure from private citizens it would simply be the exercise of the right to protest guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.

Scott said...

Bloomberg should have had his ass term-limited out.

Here's a National Review article that would be endorsed by the AlphaSockPuppet's handlers: A Very Long Post on Cordoba House.

Palladian said...

"Just out of curiosity, why was the Orthodox church that was destroyed not allowed to rebuild?"

Because Orthodox Christians don't give people like AlphaLiberal a hard-on like the exotic Muslims do. Plus, Orthodox Christians are part of the PROBLEM not part of the SOLUTION. Muslims are much better weapons in the war on Capitalist, Imperialist America than a bunch of Jesus-botherers. It's all about who can maximally STICK IT TO THE MAN, man.

Pastafarian said...

Alpha, if they were moderate Muslims, then why do they want to build a mosque on this site, and have the ceremonial groundbreaking on 11 Sept 2011?

Palladian said...

"Alpha, if they were moderate Muslims, then why do they want to build a mosque on this site, and have the ceremonial groundbreaking on 11 Sept 2011?"

The Cordoba (snicker, snicker) Islamic Center of Tolerance backers probably consider September 11th, 2001 the "ceremonial groundbreaking".

Scott M said...

Alpha, if they were moderate Muslims, then why do they want to build a mosque on this site, and have the ceremonial groundbreaking on 11 Sept 2011?

Cite please on that groundbreaking. I had not heard anything about that.

Joe said...

So, Alpha, you're okay with someone building a giant cathedral next door to your house?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

This is about belief and worship; it doesn't give religions unrestricted rights to bulldoze their way through society.

I have no problem with the mosque, but make my defense primarily on private property rights--the zoning in that area allows a mosque so they have the right to build there. I also deeply oppose the perverse laws that allow third parties to put strip someone of their private property rights in the name of "preservation."

Finally, I find the worship of land and most memorials absurd. If we were to make anyplace someone died an unnatural death "holy ground" there would be no place left to tread.

Pastafarian said...

I'm starting to wonder if the left's position on every issue is simply determined by their petulant oppositional defiance of the right.

If I said that shit tastes bad, Alpha would demand proof; Ritzy would insist that I'm just revealing my parochialism, and that in his many travels he'd had exquisite shit sandwiches crafted by the great chefs of Europe. Garage mahal would challenge me to a shit-eating contest (which really wouldn't make much sense, which seems about right for him). Beth would call me a moron and tell me it just needs the right cajun spices.

Pastafarian said...

ScottM, it could be bullshit -- I think I read it here in the comments in a different thread. From Fen, maybe, or Revenant -- someone who tends to comment in the wee early hours.

TRO said...

"Stopping the building of a house of worship is a violation of the First Amendment. You think not, Professor? Why not make your case instead of repeating juvenile snarking? "

Is there some Supreme Court ruling or even some case law that says this? People are still free to worship without a church so how does this violate the First Amendment, exactly? There are zoning laws all over the United States that restrict what type of businesses, structures, etc. can be built. Including houses of worship.

"Why does Law Professor Ann Althouse think it is NOT a violation of the freedom of religion to stop (moderate) Muslims from building a house of worship?"

Big assumption, assuming they are moderate. And even if they are, as far as I can tell, all moderate means as regards Muslims is that they are the ones too afraid to stand-up to the zealots.

Pastafarian said...

ScottM --here you go:

http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2010/08/14/if-i-had-a-hammer/#more-10098

Posted by Fen, in the comments to the "Obama agrees with me..." post, 8-15-10, 11:34AM.

Pastafarian said...

I seem to recall reading about this 11 Sept groundbreaking on another site, maybe Ace of Spades; and that the people behind the mosque later changed their mind about this date, when they realized that it made their endzone dance a little to obvious.

AC245 said...

Stopping the building of a house of worship is a violation of the First Amendment.

I guess this new talking point means that the leftists have abandoned their thoroughly discredited "It's not a mosque!" talking point.

I don't see the part of the First Amendment that guarantees that houses of worship can be built anywhere.

I do see the part about freedom of speech, though, which I think includes the right to criticize where and why a particular house of worship is being built.

jr565 said...

In todays paper (NY Post, yeah yeah whatever) Hamas's leader came out endorsing the building of the mosque. Because muslims need to prey and theres nowhere else to pray. Clearly he hasnt' been in NY as there are plenty of mosques to pray in. Also, there are plenty of buildings to buy that would not engender any controversy. It almost sounds like they're trying to push some buttons or stoke some fires here.

Scott M said...

Doing my own quick-and-dirty search, all I could find was blogs and comments. No definitive link to anything pointing to a reliable source that this is actually true. I'd have to call bullshit on it at this point.

If it is true, the question should be rephrased and put to President Obama again. I doubt that it is, though, because I can't believe that they would be that bold and that we would be that stupid. On balance, I remain just north of "half-full" for our country. If that little tidbit turns out to be 100% true, we may as well just spill the whole damned cup.

Fred4Pres said...

Many Muslims smoke. Okay they smoke at night during Ramadan but they still smoke.

MK said...

I've been wondering that, as well, AL. I have sometimes read that if put to a vote, a majority of the U.S. would vote against the Bill of Rights. I guess that's not just a hypothetical anymore, we are seeing the living proof.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I'm starting to wonder if the left's position on every issue is simply determined by their petulant oppositional defiance of the right.

Stop wondering. Just look at the liberal outrage over Draw Mohammed Day as insensitive, bigoted, Islamophobic. Yet Piss Christ was an a provacative and edgy piece of art that celebrated our 1st Amendment Rights.

Its not so much as anti-right is its anti-Western.

edutcher said...

If the Left suddenly grew a pair and gave up all the phony multi-culti, diversity, and PC and took a stand against the mosque, how fast would it take Alpha to turn into Chesty Puller?

Scott said...

Bloomberg should have had his ass term-limited out.

Precisely, he personifies why we had a Revolution.

The Ghost said...

Joe ...

so someone died an unnatural death at Ground Zero ? really ...

was there some horrific accident I didn't hear about ?

was there a natural disaster that snuffed out nearly 3,000 there ?

they were murdered ... see, some people think that mass murder is alittle different than someone dying an unnatural death ...

The point is not what YOU consider hallowed ground ... there are 10's of thousands who consider Ground Zero hallowed ground because their friends, loved ones and co-workers were MURDERED there ...
by 19 men in the name of Islam ...

how would you feel about a KKK museum right next to the cemetary that holds the remains of MLK ?

See, you can feel other peoples pain, just not the survivors of 9/11 I guess ...

jr565 said...

Here's the article with the endorsement from the mosque building from Hama's leader

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/hamas_nod_for_gz_mosque_cSohH9eha8sNZMTDz0VVPI

"We have to build everywhere," said Mahmoud al-Zahar, a co-founder of Hamas and the organization's chief on the Gaza Strip.

"In every area we have, [as] Muslim[s], we have to pray, and this mosque is the only site of prayer," he said on "Aaron Klein Investigative Radio" on WABC.


Maybe those proposing this mosque don't realize that we have mosques they can pray in already? Perhaps we should notify them so that they don't feel so aggrieved by our intolerance.

e have to build the mosque, as you are allowed to build the church and Israelis are building their holy places."
'WE HAVE TO PRAY': Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (inset) got support from Hamas co-founder Mahmoud al-Zahar (above left, with Gaza political leader Ismail Haniyeh), who spoke on WABC Radio yesterday in favor of Rauf's proposal to build an Islamic center in this downtown location two blocks from Ground Zero.
AP
'WE HAVE TO PRAY': Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (inset) got support from Hamas co-founder Mahmoud al-Zahar (above left, with Gaza political leader Ismail Haniyeh), who spoke on WABC Radio yesterday in favor of Rauf's proposal to build an Islamic center in this downtown location two blocks from Ground Zero.

Hamas, he added, "is representing the vast majority of the Arabic and Islamic world -- especially the Islamic side."


Wow, so Hamas represents the vast majority of the Arabic and Islamic world? Would it be fair to wonder then if this mosque will cater to Hamas and it's followers as opposed to the more tolerant muslims we hear so much about, or the non terrorist muslims?

Trooper York said...

Nanny Bloomberg has always been a pompous elitist douche bag.

Much like AlphaLiberal.

Most opponents of this abomination just want them to move this away from the spot where the actual debris from the mass murder fell on the day that 3000 Americans died at the hands of religious fanatics.

3000 working class Americans died.

People that Nanny Bloomberg, Barack Obama and AlphaLiberal really don't give a shit about.

Michael said...

Alpha: I believe that most of us do not need a lecture on religious freedom but a great many on the left do, in fact, require a lecture on common decency and "sensitivity." Every thing that is legal is not good, Alpha. They can, in fact, build their "house of worship" there if the site is properly zoned and they have the money to do so (which I gather they do not). That does not make it a good idea and it certainly does nothing for the "outreach" they claim to want. Outreach is, by the way, a two way street.

By the way, they could not develop this mosque in 12 months if they started six months ago, so everybody can forget about the 9-11-11 ribbon cutting or ground breaking for that matter. I would be curious to know if the developers in fact ever stated this date or whether it was an urban legend kind of rumor.

jr565 said...

The Ghost wrote:
how would you feel about a KKK museum right next to the cemetary that holds the remains of MLK ?

See, you can feel other peoples pain, just not the survivors of 9/11 I guess ...


I guess southern states can now fly their racist Confederate flag again, and we won't hear another peep from our liberal friends over the racism and intolerance of it all.

Trooper York said...

Of course AlphaLiberal, Nanny Bloomberg and Big O will be absent on the thread where these barbarians stoned a woman to death.

Or they might issue a statement.
"People are free to follow their religion but I have no opinion on whether or not it is wise to stone a woman to death. I am too busy to comment on the stoning of every woman who gets on the wrong side of the Taliban."

Scott M said...

I've recently read the imam's clarification on his comments that the US should be more Sharia compliant. That seemed as nebulous as Obama's civilian force as powerful as our military...but I digress.

His central point seemed to be that religious communities in the US should be able to meet out their own justice and punishment, ie, Sharia courts for Muslim communities outside the US justice system.

It is completely incompatible that a nation built on the rule of law would have multiple rules of laws within it's border. The whole point is that we have one justice system, whether it's federal or state-based. Religious enclaves carving out their own judicial fiefdoms that hand out punishments incompatible to superior state or federal law would be the tripwire to the dissolution of the country.

We are too diverse in ethnicity, background, culture, etc for this nation to work (I'm still surprised at the number of foreign people I know that are shocked that it DOES work), we need the single thread, however stretched it may be, to hold it all together.

Trooper York said...

It is a lie that the people behind this atrocity are "Moderate Muslims."

They are backed by the same forces and ideology that sent those planes into the building.

I have spoken to several friends of mine on Atlantic Avenue who are in fact "Moderate Muslims." Working class people who are cab drivers and work in coffee carts and newsstands. They understand what this is all about and they can't believe that the city is letting this happen. The worship in their own mosque on Atlantic Ave which will be closed off for Ramadan celebrations this month. As it should be because it is part of our community.

But then they are small businessmen and they are used to getting fucked over by the likes of Bloomberg and Obama

Joe said...

Ghost, I used unnatural, but if you want murdered, fine. Any place someone was murdered is now hallowed ground. Welcome to a fucking nightmare of a world where the death cult takes over since nobody will be able to function.

Want to honor the dead and poke the eye of the murderers? Build a goddamn office building and stop futzing around with side issues.

(This death cult, memorial building shit is absurd. It's even more absurd for the living to make claims on land because someone they know or loved or whatever was murdered in that location. It's that really the world you want to live in? Seriously? Do you really understand the implications of your claims? What about people injured who later died at a hospital? Are you laying claim to the hospital being hallowed ground? What if they die in the ambulance? You going to worship that too? And if one isn't enough, is there a lower limit on the body count to make a place "hallowed ground"? Just want to make sure before I seal up the house where a friend and relative of my wife was murdered by her boyfriend.)

Scott M said...

Joe wins the Taking It To The N-th Degree award for this thread.

deepinjuncountry said...

Tinpot Bloomberg—just becuz he looks like somebpody's grandmother doesn't mean he isn't a fooking Nazi at heart.

GMay said...

ScottM said: "I've recently read the imam's clarification on his comments that the US should be more Sharia compliant."

It's already started in the financial sector. Sharia Compliant Financing.

Some people really are blind to how Islam advances itself in modern society.

Cedarford said...

Bloomberg's a little Nazi. Wants the capitalist system to run free, but wants to regulate and control every aspect of one's personal life. National Socialism's platform.

==================
Joe is right about the Death Cult and new claim that the "Victim's family(s)" now control what happens at every plane crash impact site or sidewalk murder or enemy attack as "Hallowed Ground".

Hospitals next?

People forget that when Lincoln was talking at Gettysburg he wasn't there to call the whole battlefield "Hallowed Ground". He was there to dedicate a fucking military cemetery, that he was there at the opening and consecration of.
Pearl Harbor - the Memorial is built above a repository for remains and is treated no different than the graves of all the US soldiers and some civilians that died on high seas or on some un-named Pacific island.

The writer of the column, Lupica, naturally gave the whole screed about the right of the victim families to control all development around the enemy attack point. How if anything is done it must be with Heroes' relatives assent about property they don't own.
A mosque ?? "Tell it to Mrs Spliflowitz, mother of a fallen murdered Hero"...implying that anything done is only with Mrs. Spliflowitz's permission..

Same dummies like Sarah Palin that denounce Kelo for allowing city or big moneymen to "Control sacred property rights of Freedom-Lovers"....are the same dummies lining up to say that all private property owners in lower Manhattan may build or select who they house only "with the matter run by the Victim Families who control all Hallowed Ground" first.

Cedarford said...

Some of the mythology from 9/11 started in Bizzaro-World and stayed there.

An abundance of lawyers inc. Rudy insisted on applying a law enforcement mentality. People were not killed in an enemy attack but were murdered. The site was a "crime scene" the FBI was "solving and gathering evidence" at. People at the scene, though just a few actually did something that made any difference, were Heroes. Especially the uniformed government employees, Biggest Heroes of all in Rudy's town, certainly cops over lesser citizens in Rudy's mind. People that fought on Flight 93 vs. were heroes...just as the language has crept into cancer sufferers all now "heroically fighting" for their lives.
The damage from enemy attack was called the Holy Imprint, the Sacred Footing, etc.

To savor just how bizzare this is and people are still talking that way 10 years later, consider:

1. The people of Hiroshima were murdered in the A-Bomb.
2. The area was declared a crime scene by the Japanese.
3. The people blasted and incinerated and not being able to anything about it - were all Heroes, most notably uniformed Japanese - especially those of Japan's Bravest and Japan's Finest.
4. People dying of radiation effects later or cancer later than that - are also all heroes.
5. The 8 square miles of Hiroshima devestated was renamed "Holy Soil and Rubble".
6. No rebuilding of Hiroshima was possible without consent of the Families of the A-Bomb Victims.

Salamandyr said...

Stopping the building of a house of worship is a violation of the First Amendment.

This must be the thread where Alpha is fearlessly defending the First Amendment from all of those horrible Conservatives.

Alpha, bit of advice. It's not a violation of the First Amendment to stop the building of one church. If it was, every zoning ordinance in America would be in trouble. Churches get denied building permits all the time.

If you really want to defend this; then property rights is a much better argument. The Muslims own the property, they can do what they want with it, subject to local ordinances.

However, you might want to point out how you're just defending their right to build a mosque their, while stipulating they're horrible people for wanting to go through with such a horrible, culturally imperialist plan.

You might want to point that out, unless of course, you are in favor of Muslim cultural imperialism trampling on the feelings of Americans.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

I read somewhere that Bloomberg was trying to protect his global financial dealings with this mosque stance.

Scott said...

Look, Bloomberg is a brilliant man--beyond brilliant. He's a true genius. I've interviewed for positions with Bloomberg LP (didn't get them) and I have nothing but admiration for his vision, entrenpeneurial spirit, and management skills.

But it's time for him to move on. Running New York City is obviously not enough of a challenge for him anymore.

Andrea said...

Wow, you asked Alph right away about the Greek Orthodox church that's being prevented from being rebuilt, and he vanished from the thread, never to be seen again. Did his head explode?

GMay said...

When the Greek Orthodox church issue comes up in this discussion, I can't help but think of Manzikert.

A.W. said...

we have a report of a cave on the ground zero mosque issue.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/muslim-leaders-to-abandon-plans-for-ground-zero-community-center-1.308426

GMay said...

Looks like Park51's twitter feed is getting overwhelmed right now, but they're denying the haaretz story.

peter hoh said...

Weigel found something interesting that may shed some light on why Bloomberg has less authority on religious property use than he has on restaurants.

LUIPA is a law designed to protect religious assemblies and institutions from zoning and historic landmark laws that substantially interfere with the assemblies' and institutions' religious exercise. It also protects individuals and religious institutions, including churches, mosques, and synagogues, in their use of land and buildings for religious purposes.

Link,

c3 said...

A hypothetical:

First for historical perspective go here

Now imagine if Rev. Falwell's church owned a property some five blocks from Ground Zero and after the above public pronouncement he said he planned to open a "prayer garden" at that site to pray for the victims and for America's redemption.

What would the response have been?

peter hoh said...

Andrea and Scott, St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is not being rebuilt because the church and the Port Authority failed to come to terms.

I realize you want to cast the church as victims of government restrictions, but it's not as simple as that.

As best I can tell, the church is retains the right to rebuild on their original site.

They had an agreement in which they would move across the street in exchange for $20 million towards construction of a new church building.

Apparently, there are some infrastructure issues re. the land under their original site.