July 31, 2010

"Now 9 influential American Muslim scholars have come together in a YouTube video to repudiate the militants’ message."

"The 9 represent a diversity of theological schools within Islam, and several of them have large followings among American Muslim youths. The video is one indication that American Muslim leaders are increasingly engaging the war of ideas being waged within Islam."

53 comments:

Methadras said...

It doesn't matter. There are to many Muslims to sufficiently deflect any diametrically opposed view to these 9 'influential American muslim' scholars. They will most likely be rejected and at worst have a fatwah thrown against them.

Juba Doobai! said...

Taqqiyah. IOW, lying is a Koran-approved talent by Muslims. What they say in Arabic is not what they say in English. Anyway, I shall cling to this: "by their fruits ye shall know them." So, I guess we'll find out ... one way or another.

ricpic said...

"We cannot kill innocent people."

Uh, excuse me...is an infidel innocent?

Hint: an infidel will not accept the supremacy of Allah, will not submit to Allah. If an infidel converts, submits to Allah...fine. If he does not he is not innocent and in fact it is the duty of a muslim to kill him. That is just one explicit aspect of jihad. And jihad is central to Islam.

El Pollo Real said...

Now 9 influential American Muslim scholars have come together in a YouTube video to repudiate the militants’ message.

We won't accept mere repudiation.

We want total refudiation.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Good for them. It's weird that they have to team up to get some notice though, you'd think people would be interested in the different communities of our own country.

Original Mike said...

What the hell took you so long?

But I ain't holding my breath...

Jason (the commenter) said...

I can't think of any influential religious figures in America, outside of Pope Benedict XVI, the Dahlai Lama, and Louis Farrakhan, so I'll have to take New York Times's word that these men are influential.

(What a sad group those three are!)

Skyler said...

Nine people I never heard of speaking out nine years too late. This effort should have taken place on Sept 12, 2001.

Better late than never, but I'll be more impressed by results than talk.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Skyler: Better late than never, but I'll be more impressed by results than talk.

How can anyone judge results? It's not like we can count the lives that weren't lost.

Personally, I would have found the presentation more effective if it had used one person, not nine, and that person had made a detailed argument against religious violence. It makes me wonder who this clip was intended for. I'm assuming their followers already know their Imam's stance on this issue.

Seven Machos said...

It's not like all Muslims secretly want to overthrow the West, people. Chill.

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Sixty Grit said...

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But back to the muslims - are we to understand that they don't want to kill all the Jews in the world? Does Israel have a right to exist? Get back to us on that, "imams", but I think we know the answer.

edutcher said...

The journey of a thousand miles, as they say...

I'll take these guys on a little faith, but let's see if they keep up the fire. Let's see how many fall in behind if they're that influential. I appreciate that, if they're for real, they're taking their lives in their hands, but let's see what they do next.

Skyler said...

Results would obviously be getting Muslims to publicly agree with these tepid remarks and getting al Qaeda to surrender.

Pogo said...

I have mixed feelings about this.

I want it to be true, but my BS warning light is blinking a cautionary yellow (though not red like it does whenever Obama speaks).

Will there be masses of Muslims in Dearborn and Minneapolis with placards reading Not in my town!, like the honkies from our little town did after a racist assault on a black man?

Not likely.

Ironclad said...

Having lived in the middle east for over 25 years, in the belly of the beast too (the place furnishing most of the money to these guys), I also approach this video very sceptically. The culture they are pushing is very much into professions of intent similar to this - with actions usually being 180 degrees from what is said. Actions do speak louder than words.

It all matters what the definition of "is" is, since terms like "innocents" cannot possibly be applied to khaffirs (non-Muslims). So a lot of these professions ring a bit hollow when you hear it through a filter. There is a great school that says that all non-Muslims are targets, a smaller school that says that the "takfirs" - the ones that don't believe as you do - can also be included in the free fire list.

I laughed at the NY Times article where they quoted verses that told them not to kill women and children - of course not - they were MUCH more valuable as slaves and chattel. I notice that it omitted what they did to the men and boys.

Always amazing to me that these "interfaith" type videos never give an inch to any other religions - just trying to smooth the waters so that they can continue to operate without interference.

Lisa said...

And what do they say in Arabic? Will they excise the passages about Jews from the Koran? Will they remove any negative associations from non-Muslims and accept us as people?
Will they dismantle the misogyny within Islam and the Muslim communities?

rhhardin said...

No statement from Amish leaders is needed.

Skyler said...

The appropriate response nine years ago should have loud and forceful rage. Feeble expressions of disappointment just don't cut it.

Joe said...

Join me with the skeptical....
Yasser Arafat condemned "terrorism" and the killing of "innocents," too.

But he never gave, an English, definition, of either term. Turns out that the Occupation of Palestine was "terrorism", in his view...and that many Israelis weren't "innocents."

So if these guys want my "vote" a better response involves saying 9/11 was a sin. You CAN NOT as a Good Muslim, use womyn and children as weapons, nor kill the civilian occupants of the Twin Towers and call your self a "Muslim." Further a condemnation of the indiscriminate use of car bombs and the like needs to be included. Lastly, a call for an Ecumenical Council of Muslims to discuss various passages of the Koran and the practices of several sects, and the application of Shari'a Law needs to have been included.

Cynically, when one of these guys, or all of them, get a "Fatwa" issued against them or one of them is beheaded by some nut-job screaming "Allahu Akhbar", I'll believe they mean it.

Big Mike said...

They're about 8 years and 10 months too late.

nikrok1 said...

Absolute POPPYCOCK!! This video is an example of the highest level of duplicity, which is favored by 'American Muslim scholars'. Read the Koran, read the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, read what Thomas Jefferson, Winston Churchill had to say about it, visit Jihadwatch and learn the truth. LYING is specifically ALLOWED by the Koran in order to further their agenda. Islam is evil, barbaric, brutal and spread by the sword. I'm certain the INNOCENTS they speak of are MUSLIM INNOCENTS and not infidels or dhimmis. My backgroud?? I lived in various middle-eastern countries from 1987-1999. I've been there. Lived it. Glad to be in the USA. It is totally incompatible with our republic. They hate our freedoms, rights and privileges but envy our lifestyle. Muslims will SAY they hate us because we are in Muslim lands. Many Muslim lands were once Christian lands taken over by warfare and conquest. The general population moves in right behind the Holy Warriors. This is historical fact.

Epiphyte said...

An "innocent" needs to be defined as a non-muslim in a community/country of non-muslims which rules itself according to man-made law and refuses to submit to the supremacy of islamic law - including laws against blasphemy - in perpetuity. If the muslim in question is willing to define an "innocent" in his way, I'll believe him. (He is, however, committing blasphemy himself in agreeing to this definition per 8:39, 9:111 and 9:29). . . Interested parties may also want to look at Raymond Ibrahim's take on Qaradawi's recent comments relating to "Teysir" - or outward relaxation of practice to avoid unpleasant consequences (like jail). In fact, that recent instruction may be the impetus for this very series of videos:

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/7749/top-muslim-cleric-qaradawi-urges-western-muslims

george said...

Below is what these racists say to their own people. The 9 influencial American Muslims are likly lying to disarm us.

July 31, 2010
Friday Sermon in Gaza: Muslims Should Wage Jihad to Liberate the Al-Aqsa Mosque from the Filth of the Jews, the Brothers of Apes and Pigs
A Misunderstander of Islam, eh? No. Everything this Muslim cleric says is based on the Qur'an and Islamic law. "Friday Sermon in Gaza: Muslims Should Wage Jihad to Liberate the Al-Aqsa Mosque from the Filth of the Jews, the Brothers of Apes and Pigs," from MEMRITV, July 16 (thanks to all who sent this in):

Following are excerpts from a Gaza Friday sermon, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on July 16, 2010:
Preacher: Dearly beloved, the Al-Aqsa Mosque is subjected to a vicious campaign of Judaization and defilement, at the hands of the filthiest creatures made by Allah - the Jews.


"O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean..." -- Qur'an 9:28. The word translated "pagans" here is mushrikun, those who commit shirk, or the association of partners with Allah. The Jews are guilty of this according to Qur'an 9:30, which claims (falsely) that they say that Ezra is the Son of God. And according to Al-Islam.org: "As regards the people of the Book (i.e. the Jews and the Christians) who do not accept the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad bin Abdullah (Peace be upon him and his progeny), they are commonly considered najis [unclean], but it is not improbable that they are Pak [pure]. However, it is better to avoid them."

[...] Today, we see the brothers of apes and pigs destroying homes with their occupants still in them, uprooting trees from their land, and killing women, children, and the elderly. [...]
The Qur'an three times recounts that Allah transformed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs (2:62-65; 5:59-60; 7:166). "When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: 'Be ye apes, despised and rejected'" (7:166).

Michael Haz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael Haz said...

The video is a hoax; an attempt to sound "moderate" in hopes of being able to build a mosque at the site of the 9/11 murders.

Excellent article here.

Epiphyte said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joan of Argghh! said...

Yep. Hoax. Redirect. If it had been right after 9/11, maybe I'd buy it.

Now that they're worried about a retaliatory backlash in the U.S., now that they see people unafraid to take to the streets and protest a proposed mosque, now they come out for moderation. Just before some pivotal elections. How convenient.

Color me skeptical in the extreme.

Epiphyte said...

Here's the correct headline:

"Top Muslim Cleric Qaradawi Urges Western Muslims to Liberalize"

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/7749/top-muslim-cleric-qaradawi-urges-western-muslims

When considered in light of the Ground Zero mosque controversy and Michael Haz' article (which I hadn't seen), the more suspicious I become.

Chris said...

When the streets of the Ummah fill up in riotous protest against the perpetrators of atrocities such as 9/11 and Beslan in the same way they fill up in protest of Motoons you might give Muslims like this some credit and not feel like a fool.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

What to make of the ratio of new converts to non-converts in this video?

misskelly said...

Ughhh!! Jamal Badawi?!? Supporter and associate of Sheikh Qaradawi and Salah Soltan? Jamal Badawi is specifically named in the Muslim Brotherhood memorandum on the 'strategic goal' for the North American operation of the extremist Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan). A key paragraph from the memorandum:

"The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions."

The Dr. Jamal Badawi Foundation is listed as "providing the seed of the comprehensive dawa organization."

Please do even five minutes of research on these co-caleld "influential scholars" and you'll find quite disturbing information about what they really believe and what they hope to achieve in the United States.
Whatever they say simply cannot be taken at face value.

big_wannabe said...

At 3:58 one of them condemns "unwarranted violence".

See, they can't simply condemn all violence because their religion specifically prescribes some violence.

Others here have already picked up on the use of "innocent" and it's true meaning (only the ummah).

Classic Taqqiya.

*YAWN*

TM Lutas said...

Unless we're to do to Islam what the British empire did to Thuggee (for those who do not know the history, they wiped it out because Thuggee promoted murder of travelers as a central religious ceremony), our only path to victory is for a decent interpretation of Islam that is compatible with coexistence with the West to gain ground and wipe out the interpretations that lead to violent assaults on those who are not muslim.

Whether or not this video is genuine, our only path to victory is going to start with statements and videos that look exactly like it. The naysayers need to have some sort of sorting mechanism so that we can find true muslim allies or step by step we're going to be forced to the choice between surrender and genocide

orbicularioculi said...

This video is just more nonsense about what Islam is. Anyone bothering to read the Koran, Sira and Hadith will quickly recognize that Islamofascist terrorists are following the dictates of Mohammed and Allah.

This Trilogy of Islam is very clear about the goals and means to secure the goals of Islam. Jihad is the political weapon that has been used by Muslims for nearly 1,400 year to "convert" human beings to Islam - that weapon is the threat of death and/or slavery.

After 13 years in Mecca, proselytizing his new religion, Islam, Mohammed and his 150 Muslims were thrown out of the city by it's citizens. Mohammed then traveled to the Medina and when the Muslims still were unsuccessful after one year, Mohammed devised jihad and they began raiding, stealing and killing other Arabians and Meccans along the trading route outside Medina.

Mohammed and the Muslims of Medina murdered, tortured and raped their way to "religious" acceptance and in only 9 years Mohammed returned to Mecca with an army of 10,000 Muslims and all of Mecca converted to Islam.

Mohammed returned to Medina a few months later and died. His last words were:

Bukhari 4,52,288 “On his deathbed Mohammed gave three final orders, saying “First drive the non-Muslims from Arabia. Second, give gifts and show respect to foreign officials as I have done. I forgot the third command”

Islam does not mean peace, unless all the world is converted to Islam and jihad is WAR against kafirs.

Only when non-Muslims, kafirs, begin educating themselves and reading the Koran, Sira and Hadith will they wake up to the fact that Islam is not compatible with Democratic Western Civilization.

In fact, Islam, is totally intolerant of any other religious belief and since the Words and Life of Mohammed are TRUE to all Muslims Islam can never change.

kkollwitz said...

Good but too vague. Any group of 9 people could get together and say things like "killing innocents is bad." I'd want to hear specific repudiations of the perpetrators of911, the London Subway bombings, the shoe bomber, etc. by name.

David said...

Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! who will believe you? Mulla brandly in the conner!

c3 said...

Appreciated

but shouldn't it have been in Arabic?

Penny said...

"All points of intersection are valid."

Penny said...

So pay more attention to the size of your own butt before you "but, but, but" the well intentioned.

Nice ass, by the way! ;)

Rashad said...

Do any of the commenters that are so down on Islam have any Muslim friends? Have you ever talked to a Muslim? Did they tell you how much they want to overthrow America and spread their religion?

Did they say that they don't care about the things that everyone else does, like getting a job, finding a wife, being happy?

Were they not people for whom politics and religion was an important part of their identity, but a fairly small part of their overall lives?

The narrative of an American war on Islam is already problematic enough. Reading this thread, one would think that it is real.

Ironclad said...

To Rashad,

Yes, I do have many Muslim friends and yes, I have talked to them in length. They are quite human and they all have families with all the problems that all of us share. (usually just a lot larger because they have a lot of kids)

They all worry about the way the world moves and, in many cases, they worry a lot more about their co-coreligionists wanting to kill them or make their life miserable (many of these are Shia in a Sunni society). Don't even ask about being any other sect unless you want to lose your head.

But to answer your question, they all pretty much share certain political views - they think Jews are really bad, and they pretty much think the US had 9-11 coming. They mostly all want to come to the US or they want the US to "fix" the problems in their countries - somehow without interfering with their lives.

But all of them pretty much think all of Islam is perfect and practice exactly what has been said in the threads above.

Skyler said...

About the only Muslims I respect were the 120 or so Azerbaijanis that I met in Iraq. They were fighting against Al Qaeda with us and the company commander told me that they were muslim, but they didn't believe what Al Qaeda believed.

Unlike these men making this rather unconvincing video, these Azerbaijani muslims were putting their contempt of jihadist islam into action.

Not all muslims are bad, but the good ones are quite rare.

Skyler said...

The narrative of an American war on Islam is already problematic enough. Reading this thread, one would think that it is real.

Of course it's real. Where have you been for the last nine years? It's just a political nicety for the government to say that it's not. Duh.

Mrs. Kissell said...

Anyone who believes these liars is a liar and deserves what they get.

However, it indicates a phenomenon that is gathering strength: the American ruling class is converting to Mohammedanism. NYT and academe have long made doing that appear reasonable and judicious -- for the ruling class and its subjects.

Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Episcopalians and Jews, who have comprised the leadership cadre of the nation since its inception, note that Mohammedans' ruthlessness has given them effective control, and in some prominent cases executive control, of the mechanisms of local, state and federal government.

To maintain their traditional position as leadership cadre, which over the last half century morphed into a ruling class, they are espousing and will with gathering enthusiasm continue to espouse Mohammedanism. NYT and academe are easing the way, making it look stylish, cool, as here.

Faith has nothing to do with it. It's about staying atop a winning horse, in this case a political cabal.

The ruling class' move to Mohammedanism does not mean a decrease in Christianity, which does not and cannot be decreased. It means a shift in tangible allegiance by frangible personalities, for the purpose of maintaining positions of dominance.

The convincing factor is the Mohammedan's ruthlessness, which the American ruling class admires, now openly emulates and wants to benefit from so long as its rampancy persists.

Rashad said...

Well, if the American war on Islam is real, then isn't Bin Laden right as well? I mean, if the US is really fighting a war against Islam, then shouldn't he be perfectly justified in organizing the defense?

Or do you think he started the war, and we're going to finish it?

I mean, place yourselves in the shoes of a young Muslim with access to the internet in Pakistan, or Egypt. You have conflicting views about Bin Laden, because he and his followers have clearly killed a lot of people, including Muslims, but his message about a war with the West has some resonance for you, given all the wars against Muslim countries perpetrated by the US, and the US continued support of Israeli occupation of Palestine. So you go online to see what people in the West think about Islam. And you find this thread! And millions of others like it, talking about how terrible Islam is, and how it is all about deceit.

Now, for this hypothetical Muslim youth, this is not at all what Islam is about. It is about justice, it stands for fighting against oppression, it stands for anti-corruption in countries riddled with it. At least in Egypt, it also stands for a more democratic alternative to the current system. But he's going to jump right into Bin Laden's arms once he hears what the West *really* thinks about him and his religion, by reading threads just like this.

I mean, this would be like people taking literal readings of the old testament and tarring all Jews and Christians as people that believe in stoning adulterers.

Anyway, I just hope Ann takes the opportunity to follow Tunku's advice to Walt and Mearsheimer and take responsibility for her commenters and strongly condemns the extremist views that commenters have been posting here.

That was actually sarcasm, but hard to communicate that on the internet. Sorry for the long post.

Epiphyte said...

Rashad, if a young muslim takes up arms with the likes of Al Qaeda and OBL for WHATEVER reason, then he's fighting, by definition, for the further Talibanisation of his society which would INCLUDE stoning (among other atrocities). He's not fighting to end "oppression," except in the sense that islamists mean "oppression" (i.e. the absence of full submission to islamic law). That's a political choice that has real world consequences for other people, and I have no problems saying that all freedom loving people, on behalf of the entire human race, have the right to kill such a person on sight.

Danny Carlton said...

Here are some links to show that what they say, is pretty much all lies…

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6177
http://www.investigativeproject.org/271/mpac-cair-and-praising-osama-bin-laden
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=7936

Rashad said...

Epiphyte, you completely missed my stoning point, which was about literalist interpretations of religious texts. I mean, it's very common for Christians (and all religions) to pick and choose which verses of holy books they interpret literally, and which figuratively. The Koran and Hadiths work the same way. Just as most Christians and Jews don't believe that stoning is an appropriate form of punishment for adultery today, much of the Hadiths at odds with modern life don't appeal to many Muslims. For example, dogs are considered quite unclean in Islam, and yet many people have pet dogs. Kill the apostates! (sarcasm)

Anyway, my point about said youth wasn't that he would join up with Bin Laden and fight, but that the prevalence of anti-islamic/religionist language from the West reinforces his belief that his religion and co-religionists in Iraq and Afghanistan are in a war with the West. Even if he disagrees with many of Bin Laden's cultural norms. People make compromises about their political leaders all the time. Do you support every facet and position of politicians that you vote for. Do you agree with everything your pastor, or other religious figures you admire say?

How would you even win a "war against Islam"? Kill every Muslim? Get them to convert? Conquer every Muslim-majority country? Kick them all out of the US? It's a really dumb phrase.

So assuming you're not really talking about a "war against Islam" but a "war against a type of Islamic ideology" how do you win that war? Does tarring all of Islam with invective help you, or hurt you? Wouldn't that war require villifying a certain subset of Islamic beliefs, while trying to prop up other, less radical ones? Exactly like this video is doing?

I'm genuinely curious here as to the answers.

Rashad said...

Not that anyone is following this thread anymore, but for posterity's sake, I thought this article is of relevance.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/07/29/florida.burn.quran.day/index.html#fbid=z46CmOD3zZ_

"Church plans Quran burning event"

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