June 29, 2010

Kos and Research 2000.

"While the investigation didn't look at all of Research 2000 polling conducted for us, fact is I no longer have any confidence in any of it, and neither should anyone else. I ask that all poll tracking sites remove any Research 2000 polls commissioned by us from their databases. I hereby renounce any post we've written based exclusively on Research 2000 polling."

Okay. So then... this one?
• 39% of Republicans want President Obama to be impeached.

• 63% think Obama is a socialist.

• Only 42% believe Obama was born in the United States.

• 21% think ACORN stole the 2008 election....
We all talked about that. It was garbage?! Here's what I had to say at the time (boldface added):
Yes, we have to stop first and wonder how good are the Daily Kos/Research 2000 pollsters. I picked up this story at Talking Points Memo, where there's no information about why I should trust this poll. How did they locate their 2,000 "self-identified" Republicans, who, TPM tells us represent "the psyche of the minority party's base"?...
Here's the Kos post announcing the results of the poll. It begins with this mind-boggling sentence:
"As I've mentioned before, I'm putting the finishing touches on my new book, American Taliban, which catalogues the ways in which modern-day conservatives share the same agenda as radical Jihadists in the Islamic  world." It turns out this poll was designed to help him with that theory.

How independent and reliable is Research 2000?
Now, Kos is distancing himself from Research 2000. But I want to know the whole story. What's going on with that book of his?

109 comments:

John Lynch said...

Once more the Althouse BS detector comes through.

Meade said...

Atta girl! Proud of you.

Seven Machos said...

The funny part is that Kos didn't apparently question the results. He was so happy to see his straw man beliefs about conservatives validated.

EnigmatiCore said...

I don't know about a book I would never have read, but I can say this.

I like the way Kos has handled this. He got out in front of it, he took the blame for his part (which was being the victim here), and he didn't doc dump it on a Friday (this upcoming one would have been perfect).

I think he did good here.

Salamandyr said...

I agree with Enigmaticore. It appears Kos has been very forthright about this. Good on him.

GMay said...

Wading into the DKos comments section (you're welcome fuckers) they're all patting Kos on the back for his integrity with R2K. Yup, Mister Integrity alright. A real fucking truth, justice and intellectual honesty type of guy right here:

"But I found myself making certain claims about Republicans that I didn't know if they could be backed up. So I thought, "why don't we ask them directly?" And so, this massive poll, by non-partisan independent pollster Research 2000 of over 2,000 self-identified Republicans, was born."

Doing a google search, you'll find R2K references all. over. the. place.

Original DKos posts/articles/whatever-you-call-that-bullshit-over-there is infested R2K references. God only knows what the comments sections on all those posts look like based on R2K "findings".

lucid said...

If you actually read his sentences carefully, including his syntactical abominations, it is apparent that he is a hopelessly ignorant and remote individual who understands very little about politics or political theory.

Everyone could tell there was something very wrong with that poll. But the company took his money and sold the poor fool a lot of the nonsense that he wanted to hear.

Now he has a book that has probably gone to the printer, which he has a contract to have done in a certain way, which he has publicized and promoted--and which is based on laughably and now visibly false materials.

It is really a perfect comeuppance for a self-righteous, self-important, and priggish fool.

MC said...

This was posted by kos:

"Book was stripped of references to R2K, except in two instances where I couldn't do so without affecting page count (too late for me to do that since the index was done), but those two examples also references other supporting polling, so my premise didn't depend on the R2K results."

Doesn't sound like he's going to change his conclusions...

Fuck it, who needs data anyway we all know teabagger racist redneck reichwinger blah blah blah

Seven Machos said...

Kos is a huge brighter-than-thou asshole. Yet he fell for data validating his own completely wrong beliefs.

He's an idiot. I don't feel sorry for him. I don't think he did good here. Doing the right thing after you did the wrong thing doesn't change the fact that you did the wrong thing. And he's still as stupid as he was when believed the ridiculous data.

Ann Althouse said...

How much credit to give to Kos for coming clean? I want to know if he's trying to get out in front of something that's about to hit. He's shifting the blame. But he is responsible for the shit he purveyed. I thought it smelled like rot when it was first announced.

Maybe there's something in the Journolist archive...

lucid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lucid said...

He has done nothing noble here. He didn't figure out how ridiculous his "poll results" were. He, idiot that he is, thought they were great and paid for them and wrote a book about them.

He got caught out by the idiocy of his beliefs and the limitations of his mind and of his experience in the real world.

So, he now stands revealed as the buffoon he has always been.

EnigmatiCore said...

"Doesn't sound like he's going to change his conclusions..."

Didn't see that. But it just means his book will go straight to the value bin.

Lem said...

Nominate Althouse for a Blogging Pulitzer... Now !!

GMay said...

AA wondered: "Maybe there's something in the Journolist archive..."

Yeah, that's where R2K dug up 400 of their 2000 "Republicans" for Kos.

Original Mike said...

"Once more the Althouse BS detector comes through."

It's not like this one was particularily hard BS to detect. I mean, come on!

GMay said...

Bitch fight!

“I can tell you, we’re fine. What we’re going to reveal, that will be the end of the Daily Kos,” Ali said. “I can say, it has to do with people owing money.”

lucid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
EnigmatiCore said...

Ann,

OK, so do not give him credit for it if you think he was just getting out ahead of it.

Give him credit for handling it better than 90% of those who have a reason to hide something.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt here. It sounds to me like he didn't buy their crap after the Lincoln-whathisname primary, and when given evidence to support what his thoughts were, he did the right thing.

Publishing his book regardless is a bit weak, but did anyone here really think he tailored his book to the evidence, or rather was just going to include evidence that supported what he thinks? The 'good on him' is for not accepting faked evidence.

lucid said...

Moulitsas writes: "Book was stripped of references to R2K, except in two instances where I couldn't do so without affecting page count (too late for me to do that since the index was done), but those two examples also references other supporting polling, so my premise didn't depend on the R2K results."


But this is clearly just a pathetic attempt to salvage his book, which is now totally discredited.

Doesn't he realize that he has based his arguments around beliefs about Republicans that he now knows to be untrue?

It is not enough to take out "references" to R2K.

He has to take out the arguments of the book itself--and then there is nothing left.

He has put his name on a book that is now discredited. He has made himself a laughingstock.

That is why his Journolist friends and supporters want to spin how noble he is--because it is clear that he has actually just made hiself the object of public ridicule.

Ha, ha, ha.

Who can trust anything that such a pretentious naif writes now?

Gabriel Hanna said...

Half a golf clap to Kos admitting that his polls were bogus; but minus several hundred doing nothing but deleting "Research 2000" from the book. It's reminiscent of "cdesign proponentsists".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Pandas_and_People

Seven Machos said...

According to GMay's link, the subtext is that there is much more to this. I'd be surprised, though, that if there were, Kos would sue.

GMay said...

"At one point, they claimed they couldn't deliver them because their computers were down and they had to work out of a Kinkos office."

Looks like R2K is an all-around class act. Maybe if that bastard Kos had paid up, they wouldn't be dumpster diving either.

lucid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lucid said...

Moulitas didn't do the right thing here.

He was outed by other people who knew that his results made no sense and were going to go public with it.

He was behind the curve the whole way because of the ignorance and prejudice of his own thinking.

He was so sure he had to be right that he didn't realize how stupid he sounded.

Meade said...

"As I've mentioned before, I'm putting the finishing touches on my new book, American Taliban, which catalogues the ways in which modern-day conservatives share the same agenda as radical Jihadists in the Islamic world." -by kos Tue Feb 02, 2010 at 08:58:03 AM PDT

"Every death should be on the front page
Let the people see what war is like. This isn't an Xbox game. There are real repercussions to Bush's folly.
That said, I feel nothing over the death of merceneries. They aren't in Iraq because of orders, or because they are there trying to help the people make Iraq a better place. They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them."

by kos on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 12:08:56 PM PDT

EnigmatiCore said...

Gmay- The evidence the three amigos provided is compelling. There is no way at all that the published results of R2K polls over the past year could have resulted from random sampling.

Del Ali is trying to salvage the un-salvageable.

Seven Machos said...

Del Ali is trying to salvage the un-salvageable.

Correction: Kos is trying to salvage the un-salvageable.

Don't make me use the bold any more, man. Because I will do it.

c3 said...

I read this earlier and it felt like a sly way to promote his book.

Oh yeah, and as regards the poll, as many have already suggested, it felt like BS from day one. Surprising that no one at Kos said

C'mon,

Lem said...

He was so sure he had to be right that he didn't realize how studpid he sounded.

Rush is being proven right yet again.

The Left has certain beliefs and they are prepared to do whatever is necessary to confirm those beliefs.

EnigmatiCore said...

Every time you use bold without reason, an English boy masturbates.

No, wait, that's not right...

/or it is

GMay said...

EC - They're both trying to salvage the unsalvageable. DKos just hit first. It's about the only thing he's gotten right here - control the flow of information, don't react.

It looks like he contracted R2K to give him the data he wanted, then bounced the check. R2K fudged the numbers and/or methodology and Kos was fine with it, or even requested it. I wouldn't bet against R2K having some damning evidence to support that.

It's to the lawyers now, so everyone is gonna clam up until everyone settles up out of court so everyone will shut up about the whole affair. R2K goes belly up, Kos sells enough of his book to pay off the crap advance he got from his crap publisher.

Lem said...

Right on Meade.

Remember how Bush and Chaney were accused of manipulating the intelligence to justify the war..

Well well well.. how do you like me know?

GMay said...

Shit, did I miss some bold rule?

Why the hell aren't I notifed about these things?

Irene said...

Meade quoted, " They are there to wage war for profit."

And *this* book will be a not-for-profit, peace-loving, harmony-generating narrative.

EnigmatiCore said...

"They're both trying to salvage the unsalvageable."

Another mother in Lancaster will find an unusually stiff dirty sock tomorrow, thanks to you.

Lem said...

I wish I was there to Listen to Rush tomorrow.

Meade said...

And of course when Lem says "Listen to"

he really means "secretly collude with."

EnigmatiCore said...

Who the hell is Scott Winship? Apparently he was on Journolist at one point and he wrote this, this week:

"Economists from different think tanks fought about trade and living standards. Political scientists, historians, and bloggers fought about the proper interpretation of polls."

I would just love to know what Journolist said about the R2K poll on the views of Republicans.

I bet they were clinical. Oh, intellectual, cynical.

/won't you please, please tell me what we've learned?

Lem said...

"secretly collude with." lol..

I've never given polls much credence when it comes to formulating ideas and justifying much of anything.

I find that it is the left that just loves to take polls.. they take them because they need, they seek validation.

Most polls are not worth the paper their printed on.

Methadras said...

This is nothing more than the vindication that Kos is a mentally disturbed leftard that vehemently hates conservatives and conservative ideas and principals and he is and was willing to further embrace his nonsensical ignorant fantasy via this fakery. He commissioned it. He paid for it. He got what he wanted and based on those numbers he framed his idiocy around them. Now, he's suing the company for fabrication of product, in essence. He's a discredit to society. He's entitled to his beliefs, even if they are nothing buy fringe leftard kook nonsense, but he isn't entitled to his own facts. Stunner.

Lem said...

BTW - My understanding is that Markos was urged to remain silent on the fraud, otherwise, the world would be destroyed by global warming...

lol.

Dead Julius said...

The writing of such a ridiculously-titled book with such a ridiculous premise reminds me of what Julian Assange of Wikileaks said in this recent interview.

He was talking about his initial experience trying to provide fresh source material to bloggers:

"Our initial idea was... surely those people [the bloggers] would step forward, given fresh source material, and do something. No! It's all bullshit. It's all bullshit. In fact, people write about things... because they want to display their values to their peers who are already in the same group. Actually they don't give a fuck about the material, that's the reality."

This is what seems to have happened with Kos; he has drifted more and more into his value-based world, and in the process has become more and more disconnected with reality.

It seems that Kos and his followers were much more concerned about the veracity of their ideas when their Democrats in the opposition. Facts will help you get people in the group; but once you've gained control, attracting new people is no longer imperative and the value-brandishing takes over.

Kos's book immediately brings to mind Jonah Goldberg's, which was just as off-putting.

Seven Machos said...

Except it's true, Julius, that liberals are fascists in the sense that they are constantly seeking to limit economic and political freedom.

EnigmatiCore said...

Julius, are you Julian?

And put that sock in the hamper.

/Hey. Wikileaks. Isn't that the site that keeps posting shit that misleadingly trashes our troops? Can I offer you a hearty fuck off?

Dead Julius said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dead Julius said...

statistical details about the Kos/R2K incident here

Seven Machos said...

Shorter Kos: we paid people to tell us what we wanted to hear, what we were already sure of, even though any reasonable person could have told us were full of shit. And then they told us what we wanted to hear, and were sure of. Turns out, those people couldn't tell us what were sure of and wanted to hear because we were totally full of shit. We're going to sue!

AlphaLiberal said...

More scandals should be handled the way Kos has handled this. As soon as he could, he manned up and came clean on it and let the chips fall where they may.

More pols should handle this way. Hell, the American Taliban could handle their own scandals this way.

The book will be delayed. Sales will increase, but will attorney fees go up more?

AlphaLiberal said...

Should read:
"More pols should handle their scandals this way."

Seven Machos said...

Alpha -- Will Kos also "man up" and admit that he is completely full of shit and utterly wrong about the beliefs of conservatives?

AlphaLiberal said...

By the way, until Kos' new book comes out, you can read one of his previous posts on the American Taliban here.

Or, you can wait until someone else reads it for you and reinterprets it along the proper and rigid ideological lines.

Go nits.

Seven Machos said...

Alpha -- Is the polling data in that book fraudulent? Or does Kos merely assert wrong and unprovable smears about conservatives?

In a way, I'm glad this huckster is making money off of tools like you. I appreciate a P.T. Barnum.

AlphaLiberal said...

Seven, back to the mask I see.

Your charge is not specific enough to warrant a response. He has posted an argument. You could try to prove a rational ability and lay out an argument.

But you can't, mainly because he is right. The right wing has many similarities to the Taliban.

That's why hysterical assertions by the wingers that liberals hate America and want the terrorists to win are so absurd. As absurd as it would've been to claim that Reagan wanted the Communists to win the Cold War. The Taliban/Al Qaida/Hezbollah/Jihadists of the world are the exact embodiment of evil in the liberal mind. They are everything we are against, and against everything we are for.

In fact, they are exactly what we see in the Republican Party as the GOP continues to consolidate power -- creeping theocracy, moralizing, us versus them, embrace of torture, the need to constantly declare jihad on someone, hysterics over football-game nipples, control over "decency" on the airwaves, lyrics censorship, hostility to women freedoms, curtaling of civil liberties, and so on.


Go nits.

AlphaLiberal said...

"Is the polling data in that book fraudulent?"

How TF am I supposed to know?

"Or does Kos merely assert wrong and unprovable smears about conservatives?"

No. He is spot on.

The truth is a harsh mistress, but a guy with a mask probably likes that sort of thing, right?

Seven Machos said...

No. He is spot on.

Except that when he tried to demonstrate his wacky and false beliefs, he had to end up suing his own polling company because the polling company was forced to resort to fabrication to validate his wacky and false beliefs.

Maybe you should pick a new idiot to tout. How about Keith Obermann?

AlphaLiberal said...

Ha ha!! I was looking over Kos posts and saw this great line:

Let's see if I've kept proper score: Places the GOP hates: San Francisco, Berkeley, Hollywood, Massachusetts, Vermont, big cities, New York City, Chicago, The North, Mexico, France, Europe, national parks, and pretty much the entire rest of the World.

Spot on!

Seven Machos said...

What does that falsehood have to do with the falsehoods we are currently discussing? And what about the medication that helps your attention deficit disorder?

AlphaLiberal said...

You're confused. The polling was separate from the book. He regularly publishes the polls on his very successful and innovative web site.

You must be fogging up the goggles in your mask thinking about how the truth is a harsh mistress.

And you still have not specified what part of the American Taliban argument you disagree with or why you think it's wrong.

Seven Machos said...

The polling was separate from the book.

The polling was done to validate the false, wrong, and stupid beliefs of the writer of the book. As I say, I'm glad Kos is keeping people like you off the streets at night.

AlphaLiberal said...

Masked Wonder:

Kos (you know, the subject of the thread), is listing off all the places in America that the Republicants and their leaders have hated on , such as Chicago and Massachusetts.

A point I have made here (and over there) repeatedly.

He also posted:
The American Taliban in Action

AlphaLiberal said...

From the first sentence of the first link of Ann's post above:

"I have just published a report by three statistics wizards showing, quite convincingly, that the weekly Research 2000 State of the Nation poll we ran the past year and a half was likely bunk."

Weekly polls for a book? Really?

You are telling me about a site I regularly read.

Dear ignorant jackass: good night.

Seven Machos said...

Alpha -- I suppose it is true that the goofy statement that you posted was another in a long line of truly dumb utterances at, by, or sanctioned by Kos. In the future, please shorten your posts by simply saying: Kos has written something.

Enjoy your time at that hothouse of leftist silliness.

AlphaLiberal said...

Kos at his twitter site:

"No premises in American Taliban depend exclusively on R2K polling."

Also...

"At least some of the Research 2000 polling we ran was apparently fabricated. Cons, go ahead and take your shots."

Also...

"The guns-rights crowd has won final victory. Will they realize it, or continue hysteria about Obama taking away their guns? "

Good point!

Seven Machos said...

Alpha -- Are you finished masturbating to this person now?

AlphaLiberal said...

Seven Brain Cells:

Please elaborate on why you think someone would spend money on weekly polls for a political book.

Especially when he has been publishing those weekly polls like, you know, every week for over a year.

So, you poll for a book and publish the polls and even the crosstabs (which was transparent and allowed this case to be cracked) well in advance.

How does that sell books, Mr Genius?

Man, I hope you can graduate from junior high school someday soon.

AlphaLiberal said...

Keep in mind, if you can, he published these polls for that book weekly.

Kind of like giving away the book and then trying to sell it.

I eagerly await your response.

Seven Machos said...

Alpha -- The crucial point you are missing is that Kos is an idiot in whatever arena he enters: books, polls, restrooms, erotic shops. It doesn't matter.

I'm not sure why you are so up in arms over the difference between a book and a poll. Perhaps it was explained in your links. If you think I am reading your links, you are very precious.

jaed said...

But this is clearly just a pathetic attempt to salvage his book, which is now totally discredited.

"Discredited" is a subjective judgement. Do you think AL feels the book is discredited by its tainted source material, or by the fact that its author evidently (wittingly or unwittingly) paid for the conclusions he wanted? Not at all.

Will Kos himself withdraw the book, seeing that the factual assertions it rests on were faked? Really?

Do you think book reviewers and mainstream journalists will refrain from discussing and pushing this book and its thesis because you or I think it rests on shaky (or nonexistent) foundations? Ha.

To those few of us paying close attention to these matters, the book is not credible. Most people don't pay close attention, and they pick up impressions and general feelings from their media exposure. A year from now, if you stop people on the street, 90% won't have heard of the book, but 99% of the remainder will say, "Oh, yes, I heard about it, it was some scholarly study about how dangerous the Republican 'base' is." 0.1% will know that the polling was faked; none of the rest will ever have heard that, except as a one-sentence to the effect that, "Although conservatives claimed that...".

Methadras said...

AlphaLiberal said...

Keep in mind, if you can, he published these polls for that book weekly.

Kind of like giving away the book and then trying to sell it.

I eagerly await your response.


What's to respond too? Your a known liar. Everything you say here is completely suspect, is without merit, and dubious at best. You haven't a shred of decency in that deranged leftard mind of yours and you further stain what pitiable dignity you have left by coming to the defense of another known liar like Kos. Seriously, do you yourself a favor and find other places to peddle your lies and untruths. Someplace where you can garner an audience of other miscreant political flakes and hacks who fancy themselves gotch-sters at the smallest stench of what they perceive to be irony and hypocrisy.

Fact of the matter is, is that you aren't even a good leftard. You can't even think for yourself. You basically are nothing but a DNC/SWP rss talking point. A pathetic maggot on the shit end of politics and life. Even HDHouses lies don't come anywhere close to yours.

Revenant said...

This is the problem with spending all your time with people who share your exact political views. You wind up finding the most insane accusations about "the other side" believable.

If Kos actually had a conservative friend or two, he would have looked at that "42% of Republicans are Birthers" statistic and said "ok, this poll has GOT to be a load of nonsense".

Revenant said...

As soon as he could, he manned up and came clean on it and let the chips fall where they may.

I'd be more impressed if he admitted the poll was bogus AND stated he didn't agree with its results anymore.

As it is, he still thinks the poll is accurate. Just fake. :)

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Lincolntf said...

This is priceless. It's like when the local moonbats serve up a Media Matters economic "study" proving how great Obamanomics are working. Everyone who looks at the numbers knows that they are false, and it becomes a guessing game as to where the deception ends and the gullibility begins.
In this case, it looks like Kos happily gobbled obviously false data in order to push his views. I suppose he and his regular readers could have actually believed all the farcical poll numbers the site used to post, but I doubt it.

lucid said...

@Seven Manchos
May I politely ask that you not encourage Alfalfa Blib by feeding him? In my view, it just clutters up the blog and kills the particular post.

A.W. said...

well, credit is due to Kos for renouncing this poll.

Assuming he didn't know it was bogus all along and is now throwing them under the bus in order to save his own reputation. now, while i might suspect the latter, right now we can't know that.

A.W. said...

Off topic, but two things of interest to you, Ann.

One, gore's accuser has more. http://www.nationalenquirer.com/new_evidence_gore_sex_scandal_exclusive_interview_masseuse_/celebrity/68913

she still has the pants, apparently. And claims some kind of video evidence.

Also Daily Kos is being sued right back. http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/06/markos-bets-ranch.html

Legal insurrection correctly notes that if Daily Kos had simply filed suit and didn't comment on the case, letting the legal filings speak for themselves, he would have been protected from the obvious claims regarding defamation.

Btw, Ann, i still say you should sue to discover those archives from journolist. now you can even get $100,000 for your trouble.

Scott M said...

she still has the pants, apparently. And claims some kind of video evidence.

I noticed this on the first day it was mentioned about the pants. What woman, in her remotely right mind, wouldn't keep the pants in a post-Lewinsky world?

Original Mike said...

Lesson learned: Next time, Kos, hire smarter crooks.

Joe said...

Just like Rathergate it's not the ACTUAL truth or falsity of the claims or evidence, it's their "Truthiness."

EVERYONE knows that Tea-Baggers and Republicans think this way, the poll, flawed as it is, merely reflects the underlying reality....which we all know, to be true.

A.W. said...

Btw, i am curious how those numbers would actually come out now.

For instance, i would bet now about 63% of democrats would think Obama is a socialist.

And Acorn didn't steal the election, but i am pretty sure they did all they could, legally or not, to get their community organizer elected.

And i am sure in Louisiana something like 90% of all people, democrats or republicans, want Obama impeached for the clusterf---k in the gulf.

Btw, Scott, completely agree. But i am wondering... what is the video evidence?

I mean besides the reinactment we all saw. Like i said, i don't know Gore is guilty, but i do know that this is hilarious.

Shanna said...

Interesting!

The polls were obviously fake, as many on this site pointed out at the time, but it's interesting to see Kos admitting it. The thing is, if they hadn't been so biased in the first place they would have realized the data was faked just by the results.

lucid said...

A.W. wrote: "well, credit is due to Kos for renouncing this poll.
Assuming he didn't know it was bogus all along..."

You are wrong. The buffoon gets NO credit precisely because he did not realize that the poll results were ridiculous all along.

It is his credulity in support of his absurd beliefs that makes him a laughingstock now.

He is just trying to salvage his reputation.

In the future, the rebuttal to anything that Kos writes or asserts will be: "And he has a poll to prove it."

Scott M said...

"Listening to the Dixie Chicks makes you racist. I have a pie chart to prove it."

D. Tosh

AJ Lynch said...

The biggest echo chamber on the internets is suing one of its echo manufacturers?

Brian Hancock said...

You would think you would depend on more than one pollster when gathering facts for a book and take into account the +/- ratio.

One poll source does not make things a fact.

Kos did it to himself - "trust, but confirm"

Christopher said...

Research 2000 Countersues Daily Kos (NRO Media Blog)

lucid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lucid said...

Kos and Peter Beinart think the country is moving left--and they have a poll to prove it

Larry J said...

AlphaLiberal said...
Seven, back to the mask I see.

Your charge is not specific enough to warrant a response. He has posted an argument. You could try to prove a rational ability and lay out an argument.

But you can't, mainly because he is right. The right wing has many similarities to the Taliban.


Oh, really. List some, but be prepared to be ridiculed for the hopeless fool that you are.

AllenS said...

Yeah, this is great:

The three authors who Kos called “statistic wizards” Mark Grebner, Michael Weissman, and Jonathan Weissman. They are respectively described in the Kos post as political consultant, a retired physicist, and a wildlife research technician. These are his 3 expert witnesses proving that Research 2000 is full of crap.

Original Mike said...

"You would think you would depend on more than one pollster when gathering facts for a book and take into account the +/- ratio."

Only if you wanted the truth. Kos was getting exactly what he wanted. Unfortunately (for him) the stats guys queered the deal.

Brian said...

The problem with the whole "conservatives have the same objectives as the Taliban" theme is that it isn't remotely true. I guess though to Alpha that is merely a small obstacle that good writing can overcome, even when the polling data is bogus.

On the plus side, branding conservatives as the "American Taliban" serves to put conservatives on the defensive, but it has the following problems you need to address (I read the link Alpha provided to the 2005 article, so it's a bit old, but..). I'll go ahead in the spirit of charity and point them out, Alpha, and you can start working on them:

(1) Conservatives have yet to come out for putting women in burqas, taking away their driving licenses, and forcing them to only go out in public escorted by a related man, and required to walk behind him. I don't see anyone from church like this either. I've never had a Sunday school lesson saying this is the way we should be. So all the Baptist churches I've gone to are actually quite liberal? I don't see how church-going people who vote Democrat are going to be persuaded that the conservatives they bump elbows with at church are like Kos describes.

(2) Maybe Kos has a more modern definition of the American Taliban now, since the article you linked is from 2005? I'm trying to figure out how Sarah Palin figures into the agenda of conservatives to go hysterical over nipples and curtail women's freedoms so they can't run for high office, say. Or how Republicans are so hopelessly hijacked by religious conservatives, yet Carly Fiorina and Meg Whitman are running for higher office.

(3) Y'all need to be more careful about how you define conservatives, because in that 2005 article Kos gave the game away: He cites in the 1st paragraph the "useful smear" by the Right of calling the American left communists. It's clear then this whole "American Taliban" thing is a tit-for-tat smear. He just cited a Big Lie as the means to do his own Big Lie.

(4) Kos does use black-and-white language to define the jihadists as "anti-liberal" and "everything we're against" so at least he clearly shows he's not sympathetic and wants them defeated. However, he also just blasted Republicans use of "us vs. them" and "moralizing," and being like jihadis in having a "black-and-white sense of truth." It confuses the message to say you hate the Republicans because their methods are so atrocious, and then use the same methods to demonize them and define yourself.

We have the benefit of hindsight now, since Republicans are the minority party. Got anything more recent?

GMay said...

BetaLib incredulously stated: "Or, you can wait until someone else reads it for you and reinterprets it along the proper and rigid ideological lines."

How obtuse do you have to be to say some shit like this about a book called "American Taliban"?

And by "obtuse" I mean 'hopelessly fucking stupid'.

bagoh20 said...

A liberal's day lately seems to consist of: waking up, seeing that another hero has fallen to the truth, going on blogs and denying the truth, then saying the truth doesn't matter, then saying other people do it too, then some tofu, and back to bed. Next day, next hero.

It must be like living in a sweat lodge, watching your fellows fall over dead, but being too much a follower to go out into the fresh air.

Brian said...

@Alpha:
"The guns-rights crowd has won final victory. Will they realize it, or continue hysteria about Obama taking away their guns?"

Good point!


Another good point: How are Democrats going to get gun control voters to go to the polls and vote for Democrats who tell them the S. C. has ruled and gun control is over?

One answer: Vote Democratic, we'll get more S.C. justices on the bench and they'll overturn this.

So there's your answer to the gun rights crowd.

GMay said...

"One answer: Vote Democratic, we'll get more S.C. justices on the bench and they'll overturn this."

Part Two of the answer: Commission R2K to fake some gun violence/crime data to bolster the case against the Constitution.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@AllenS:

These are his 3 expert witnesses proving that Research 2000 is full of crap.

It was a straightforward application of Benford's Law. Most people think they know what "random" means, but they are wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law

I hadn't heard of this law. If I'd been faking data, I'd have been caught too, because I don't understand "random" numbers as well as I think I do.

Now that I know about this, I could use to catch people, and so could you, provided you used it properly. You don't need a Ph. D. in statistics to do it, it's too simple. Forensic accountants use it. Anyone who knew a lot about statistics would know about it, whether or not they were a professional statistician.

DADvocate said...

The lies "based" on these polls have been dispersed widely by Kos. Damage has already been done. Many will continue to hold on to beliefs based on or supported by those polls. Kos will never be able to fully undo the damage done by the lies he willfully spread.

More than what he's done to admit his mistake, he needs to write numerous posts showing the specific results that are wrong and unfair to the groups falsely portrayed.

From what I read elsewhere, Research 2000's creation of the false results was incredibly amateurish for supposed professinals.

Original Mike said...

"Kos will never be able to fully undo the damage done by the lies he willfully spread."

You think he wants to undo the damage? Of course you don't.

I don't think there's much damage. People who aren't drinking the kool-aid already know what Kos is and put no credence in him anyways. The Kool-aid drinkers will will fall back on the "truthiness" meme. Nothing has changed.

bagoh20 said...

"I don't think there's much damage."

There is plenty. I hear people spout those poll results who have no idea who Kos is. For people who don't have much exposure to Tea Party types (liberals) this slander is already accepted as fact. Since it feeds their need for superiority, it will not be given up just because it's discredited. See global warming, socialism or nearly any other discredited liberal idea. They never die, just take short rests. That's what makes progressives dinosaurs

Brian said...

Reminds me of a joke in church when the Sunday School teacher cites a news article statistic. The retort:

"But studies show that 83% of all statistics are wrong."

You have to be careful when citing polls that prove the truth of your beliefs, let alone the shoddiness that went into R2K's. Even when the polling is legit, you can still get results that you interpret to fit your original conclusion. And leave out other interpretations, or crop it so that you don't deal with what it means in a larger picture. In the end, a poll is a snapshot: information can change, or be shaped, which is why they are used for political strategy, but using them to define political opponents only works if:

(1) You understand their underlying rationale, and are using this information to actively change their minds.

(2) Trying to score cheap points with your own side by demonizing the other side, or thinking you can convince somebody on the fence who is simply not rooted one way or the other.

Number 1 is harder but legit. Number 2 can work in the short run but can also undermine you. It makes you look mean-spirited if you cite a poll as proof the other side is so clueless, mean, tribal, or otherwise out of touch with the normal people like us, and then your echo chamber simply devolves into nasty comments going back and forth. It's not a left/right thing, it works both ways. I don't know who it convinces to switch teams.

Fen said...

How much credit to give to Kos for coming clean?

None, as long as he maintains his "fake but accurate" claim.

AlphaLiberal said...

Kos has directly addressed the question Ann and other right wingers pose ("Okay. So then... this one?")


A) The results he found regarding the bizarre extremism of modern con's have been replicated in numerous other polls.

B) R2K was only one of several polling firms to find bizarre extremism among modern con's.

C) "Conservatives can hope that all these polling outfits are found out to be frauds as well, or just accept that their base is buying the crap they're selling. If they want to scream about Obama being illegitimate, then maybe people will believe that Obama is illegitimate.

And rather than be embarrassed about it, they should own it."

Scott M said...

re: bizarre extremism

I have to take someone with a grain of salt when they talk about widespread "bizarre extremism" in reference to conservatives, but don't bat an eye at things like the violent leftist protests at summits like the recent G20 or the Lewis Farrakhan of the world.

It smacks of intellectual dishonesty at best.

AlphaLiberal said...

Scott, you make a lot of assumptions! And evasions!

So, the bizarre views of con's don't matter because of Lewis Farrakahn? Is he even still alive?

Let's review some of the bizarre views that are widespread among modern con's:

* They think Obama was not born in the USA.

* They think ACORN stole the 2008 Presidential election for Barack Obama.

* Modern wigged out con's think believe that Obama is a Muslim (even after his **pastor** got him into hot water!)

* About a third think Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"

And, really, these weird ass views are posted right here on a daily basis!! Why Althouse or anyone else denies con's hold these vies is the real enigma.

AlphaLiberal said...

And, man oh man, the Tea Party Jesus does a great job of exposing conservative evil.

AC245 said...

A) The results he found regarding the bizarre extremism of modern con's have been replicated in numerous other polls.

Fake, but accurate!

(And with Kos making public statements that R2K's results "have been replicated in numerous other polls" to try to salvage his credibility and his book, R2K is going to eat Kos's lunch with their countersuit.)

Dead Julius said...

Research 2000 sent a Cease & Desist demand to Nate Silver of fivethirtyeight.com for exposing the problems in the work they did for Kos.

They're threatening to sue him for, well, discovering the problems with the work for Kos, preparing a report about those problems, and forwarding that report to the "Daily Kos" blog.