Althouse: Pew: "Fully 73% say they approve of requiring people to produce documents verifying their legal status if police ask for them."

May 12, 2010

Pew: "Fully 73% say they approve of requiring people to produce documents verifying their legal status if police ask for them."

"Two-thirds (67%) approve of allowing police to detain anyone who cannot verify their legal status, while 62% approve of allowing police to question people they think may be in the country illegally."

I wonder what those percentages would be if the President and the political elite had not pressured us to think the Arizona law was outrageously racist.

237 comments:

1 – 200 of 237 Newer› Newest»

Anonymous said...: We're seeing a crumbling of the left's dogma and an end to the average person's fear of an inquisition.

This as a result of how ridiculous the left has become.; 5/12/10, 6:02 PM
Methadras said...: The typical American Citizen has and is railing against the smokescreen of political correctness and multiculturalism. The numbers reflect that and they are being rejected. I hope to see public policy in the future that systematically dismantles politically correct laws and policies that do nothing but confer special preferential treatment.

wv = bravo = how poignant; 5/12/10, 6:07 PM
traditionalguy said...: The birth certificate vital records bureau will have a surge in requests. The downside to the DemonRats is that their Voter Fraud racquet will run afoul of those same "Documents". So the media will/has begun to put on a full Propaganda Big Lie smear of all common sense solutions that require Documents.; 5/12/10, 6:08 PM
Anonymous said...: There is no question that this law survives strict scrutiny as it is currently understood. This law is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest. How could anyone disagree with that?

To stick to the topic, I think that people want to have a wall on the border and then and only then discuss the correct levels and types of immigration. Things are boiling over because the economy is absolutely awful.

Mickey Kaus for U.S. Senate!; 5/12/10, 6:09 PM
Smilin' Jack said...: "Fully 73% say they approve of requiring people to produce documents verifying their legal status if police ask for them...while 62% approve of allowing police to question people they think may be in the country illegally."

The set of people required to produce documents must be a subset of the people questioned, so this poll indicates that 11% are very confused.; 5/12/10, 6:11 PM
Anonymous said...: People didn't want "comprehensive reform," which they correctly understood to be the post-lawbreaking legalization of illegal immigrants, even in the very best economic possibly ever (~1981 to ~2007). They certainly aren't going to favor it under the new normal.

As I have stated here, I am pretty radically pro-immigration. Just because the government is slow and arbitrary and you don't have some document is no reason to arrest you. But I hold much, much more dear the right for people to govern themselves at a real, meaningful level.; 5/12/10, 6:12 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: It must pain the many liberals at the PEW when they get polling results like this. I am kinda surprised the PEW released its findings. I figured they would bury it.; 5/12/10, 6:16 PM
Christy said...: Is a national identity card next?

Much as I like the idea of annoying the Politically Correct, I'm not crazy about the authorities being able to stop anyone walking by and demanding papers. Too much abuse potential.; 5/12/10, 6:17 PM
The Drill SGT said...: another poll I saw had about 69% overall supporting the law and 48% of the Dems supported it.

wonder what the Dem number would be if Obama wasn;t doing the condemn before reading" trick again like he did on the Boston Cop gig.; 5/12/10, 6:19 PM
Unknown said...: i wonder how many people who answered with approval are assuming they'd never be asked to provide such documents.

if we all had national ID cards i think this may be a bit less of an issue; but if I were the person who had to be consistently asked for my papers by suspicious police, that would get old really fast. I suppose if you pretty much stay in the same part of town all the time the police would get to know you ... but still, lets be clear, this sort of requirement would lead primarily to questioning people who are non-white ...; 5/12/10, 6:19 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/12/10, 6:19 PM
Expat(ish) said...: I think that if individual consumers in the 73% pitch in we can really turn the tide.

I simply ask all my contractors (lawn, repair, roof, car, medical, etc) if they have made sure that all their employees have the legal right to work in the US. Most are startled, all the ones who have done work for me have answered yes.

The VW dealer refused to answer, so I don't take my car there anymore. It's cost them at least $2K - hey it's a VW!

If this was a common practice we could help drive out even more of the illegal aliens.

Does hitting a problem high and low count for an Anlinsky "hit them back twice as hard" award?

-XC; 5/12/10, 6:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Christy -- How else are you going to find out if people are breaking a law that is fundamentally based on a piece of paper issued by the government?

This is not a rhetorical question. It only seems like one because you will not be able to provide a sufficient answer.; 5/12/10, 6:21 PM
mariner said...: Christy,

I hope Americans will still refuse a National ID card.

So far that's what I'm seeing. Drivers' licenses for which birth certificates or passports must be produced.; 5/12/10, 6:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Danielle -- The law is narrowly tailored to a state interest, so there is no Constitutional issue.; 5/12/10, 6:24 PM
Rialby said...: So the people of LA wouldn't force a sanctions regimeon LA but they are willing to do so to AZ. Makes sense.; 5/12/10, 6:24 PM
AC245 said...: I would like to offer a genuine "Thank You" to President Obama:

Thank you for taking Governor Napolitano out of the way of the Arizona citizenry and legislature.

With her gone, I suspect Arizona is going to be a rather successful laboratory for democracy.; 5/12/10, 6:25 PM
The Drill SGT said...: Seven Machos said...
As I have stated here, I am pretty radically pro-immigration.

I am also with a caveat. we need to ditch the lottery and the "reunite families" stuff. those bring in folks that dont make an impact.

we should enable programs that bring in the best and brightest, regardless of country of national origin. Doctors, engineers, nurses, yes lawyers.

also like Canada did with Hong Kong, we need to bring in people that have capital and will start businesses, the new small business owners.

as Europe continues on its unstoppable slide into social unrest, bankruptcy and civil war, we need to skim folks from it.

fewer berry pickers and more doctors.; 5/12/10, 6:25 PM
Anonymous said...: AC hits a great point. How many of you people offering up elitist bitching about this law live in Arizona? What, exactly, gives you the right to decide how Arizona residents should live? Please provide citations.; 5/12/10, 6:26 PM
Christy said...: Does this mean "racist" is no longer an effective and believable charge? Did Representative Carson finally convince us it is meaningless?; 5/12/10, 6:29 PM
Anonymous said...: Drill -- I'm pretty sure you have to be part of the nuclear family of an immigrant to have any hope of reunification. There's quite a bit to be said for nuclear families, especially if the problem is -- as it seems to be -- young, single men involved in criminal activities.

Also, there's something to be said for the courage it takes to travel through the badlands of Mexico and cross a lightly guarded but still guarded border with pretty much just the shirt on your back. That takes guts and a certain kind of dynamism and independent spirit.

But these are quibbles. It's a tough issue. An incredibly, incredibly tough issue.; 5/12/10, 6:31 PM
Unknown said...: Wow Drill -- did you think how you would function in a country and over time if you didnt have the support of your nuclear family ?

If you need a selfish reason to welcome families of 'top recruits,' just think of how much more productive they'll be when they're not worrying about or longing for their family abroad.; 5/12/10, 6:36 PM
The Drill SGT said...: Seven Machos said...
Drill -- I'm pretty sure you have to be part of the nuclear family of an immigrant to have any hope of reunification.

I'm ok with a citzen sponsoring his spouse or kids (assuming that none of them has beed deported already. as in, mom comes here, drops an anchor baby, then the kid sponsors her back in).

as for folks sponsoring second cousins, NO. Nada. Nein.; 5/12/10, 6:37 PM
mesquito said...: When my mother immigrated, it took over a year to get permission. She had to take two trips, each taking three days round trip, to the American Embassy for interviews. Her sponsor, a relative she had never met, was required to post a bond guaranteeing that she would never become a draw on government resources. She was delayed so they could make sure that the her clerical union weren't a bunch of commies. (I'm glad for this, because I'd hate for my mom to be a goddam commie.) She was required, after she arrived, to carry on her person proof of her immigrations status. Still she came, uncomplaining, because she spent the years 1940-45 living under the thumb of real Nazis.

Oh, and illegal immigrants REALLY piss her off.; 5/12/10, 6:37 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: 100% would approve of making the police (1) have a warrant and (2) knock and wait for a peaceful resolution if at all possible rather than (3) have no-knock or knock-but-charge-in-immediately-and-shoot-their-dogs like we have now.

Polls mean nothing. Elections do.

vw: tiatis Example-- "Tiatis how it is".; 5/12/10, 6:37 PM
Phil 314 said...: I'm pretty liberal on immigration and I live in AZ. With that being said

-clearly SB 1070 has majority Arizonan and (not that it matters) US support
-I couldn't fine the poll but I do recall a recent poll that confirmed majority support for the bill AND concern that it will lead to "discrimination" against hispanics. I believe there is a certain ambivalence among Americans about immigration. IMHO we like "security", "Law abiding" and we like the "coming to America to pursue your dream" narrative
-the constitutionality will obviously be determined in the not to distant future.

Immigration is the new "abortion"?; 5/12/10, 6:38 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: The law is narrowly tailored..

I'm 36 waist.. If I'm ever in Arizona, I hope that's good enough ;); 5/12/10, 6:41 PM
Anonymous said...: c3 -- Maybe I'm wrong and the Supremes will find a right to illegal immigration somewhere in the penumbra.

You never know what they're going to find in that penumbra. It's like a box of chocolates, that penumbra.; 5/12/10, 6:45 PM
The Drill SGT said...: 7M, for reference, my wife works for USCIS, the smiley faced, raise your right hand folks, as opposed to the "but both hands on the wall and spread'em MF!" guys in USICE.

here are some of the categories that get preference right now.

For information about the categories below, see links to the left under “Other Ways to Get a Green Card.”

Amerasian Child of a U.S. CitizenAmerican Indian Born in CanadaArmed Forces MemberCuban Native or CitizenDiversity Immigrant Visa ProgramHaitian RefugeeIndochinese Parole Adjustment ActInformant (S Nonimmigrant) Lautenberg ParoleeLegal Immigration Family Equity (LIFE) ActPerson Born to Foreign Diplomat in United StatesRegistrySection 13 (Diplomat)Special Immigrant JuvenileVictim of Criminal Activity (U Nonimmigrant)Victim of Trafficking (T Nonimmigrant)For information about the special categories below, see under the “Family,” Working in the U.S.” and “Humanitarian” links to the right.

Nicaraguan and Central American Relief Act (NACARA)
Green Cards Through Special Categories of Jobs

Includes:

Afghan/Iraqi Translator
Broadcaster
International Organization Employee
Iraqi Who Assisted the U.S. Government
NATO-6 Nonimmigrant
Panama Canal Employee
Physician National Interest Waiver
Religious Worker

Green Cards Through Special Categories of Family

Includes:

Battered Spouse or Child (VAWA)K Nonimmigrant (includes fiancé(e))V Nonimmigrant; 5/12/10, 6:45 PM
LonewackoDotCom said...: Althouse says: I wonder what those percentages would be if the President and the political elite had not pressured us to think the Arizona law was outrageously racist.

Me, I wonder what those percentages would be if I could have found anyone else to help me discredit those who lied about the bill and the law; see my posts about Arizona. Compare that to what others (besides Byron York and a few others) did.; 5/12/10, 6:46 PM
Unknown said...: According to polls most Mexican-Americans here legally support this bill, along with a growing majority of all Americans.

The Demos used to be able to control any debate with the help of the establishment Media, but that died with talk radio, FNC, and the blogosphere. The Demos demagogued an issue once too often and people have finally gotten wise to their tricks, which is why they're so hot to control the internet.

Most of the original immigrants (Irish, German, etc.) had no process except step ashore, but the real issue today is the state of lawlessness on the border and the national security implications (10% of all illegals stopped at the border are Middle Eastern). This is why we have laws on this and why they need to be enforced.

Christy said...

Is a national identity card next?

If (are you ready?) Chuckie Schumer has his way.; 5/12/10, 6:49 PM
Christy said...: Seven, I don't have any answers. I simply cringe at more government requirements of us.; 5/12/10, 6:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Drill -- I was a consular officer. Getting many of those visas takes, literally, years.

It's interesting to consider this issue in the mind of a person who wishes to emigrate. It's also interesting to think of issue from the perspective of common law, which is, essentially, that the law should be what reasonable people would do or are already doing.

Food for thought...; 5/12/10, 6:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Christy -- I don't think it's fair to talk about this as more government requirements, as if it's cumbersome to be legally in the country.

Every country has a right to define who its citizens are and to keep unwanted people out.; 5/12/10, 6:53 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Much as I like the idea of annoying the Politically Correct, I'm not crazy about the authorities being able to stop anyone walking by and demanding papers. Too much abuse potential.

First of all....they can't just randomly stop people for no good reason. The stopee, must be doing something that they can legally be detained or questioned about.

It isn't meant to catch people casually strolling through the mall or eating icecream. That is a liberal bald faced lie and evidently you fell for it.

Will there be abuse. OF course there will be some, just as there is abuse in current traffic stops. The police will by and large be compliant in following the law but there will always be a few bad apples.

My husband has been stopped 2 times and myself 1 time for 'trailer ball' infractions. The ball is obscuring a number on the license plate. We are stopped because that vehicle is old and beat up looking and we forgot to remove the ball after going to the dump. Are we illegals in the country...NOPE. Did we have to show our ID and insurance coverage YES. Every freaking time Boo hoo. I have to carry my legal identification papers with me.

Most Americans realize that we are part of a regulated society and have to constantly prove our identity for all sorts of mundane things.

Why should people who are ILLEGALLY in the country and already breaking the law, NOT have to show ID when they are stopped for breaking the law. Yes.....even for stupid things like trailer ball infractions.; 5/12/10, 6:57 PM
Anonymous said...: I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies, Don't Be a Menace to South Central While Drinking Your Juice in the Hood:

"We were arrested for being black on a Friday night. Luckily, it was only a misdemeanor."; 5/12/10, 7:01 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: but still, lets be clear, this sort of requirement would lead primarily to questioning people who are non-white ...

And so......?? So freaking what.

95% of illegal aliens ILLEGAL ALIENS are from Mexico.

The police are supposed to try to catch those who are breaking the law.

I suppose if a Chinese midget was the suspect in a bank robbery you would object if the police actually looked for Chinese midgets? Maybe they should avoid 'profiling' and look for tall Swedish blonds.

I have to carry ID all the time.

What is the big effing deal. If you are legally in the country, carry your ID, since it is ALREADY the law. If you aren't legally in the country you are a criminal. Period.

Will some people get their widdle feeings hurt? Probably. Tough shit.; 5/12/10, 7:03 PM
xWerkz Studio said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/12/10, 7:05 PM
Michael Haz said...: I hope Americans will still refuse a National ID card.

So far that's what I'm seeing. Drivers' licenses for which birth certificates or passports must be produced.

I'm not sure I understand your points.

Americans already have a national ID card. It's their Social Security card. What's wrong with adding the holder's photo, description and home address?

I have lived in the state in which I was born for 61 years, and held a driver's license in that same state for the past 45 years.

At this year's renewal I was asked to produce my birth certificate in order to comply with a recently-passed state law. As an alternative, I could produce a current passport. I did. What possible problem does this simple act cause, other than for one who is here in violation of state and federal laws?; 5/12/10, 7:06 PM
mesquito said...: This business about "profiling" Mexican-Americans is bogus. here in South Texas, where most people and most cops are Mexican-American, we can tell the mojados at a hundred paces.; 5/12/10, 7:08 PM
Phil 314 said...: Lem;
Don't worry, you'll fit in nicely (and not too snugly) in AZ; 5/12/10, 7:09 PM
Larry J said...: mesquito said...
When my mother immigrated, it took over a year to get permission. She had to take two trips, each taking three days round trip, to the American Embassy for interviews. Her sponsor, a relative she had never met, was required to post a bond guaranteeing that she would never become a draw on government resources. She was delayed so they could make sure that the her clerical union weren't a bunch of commies. (I'm glad for this, because I'd hate for my mom to be a goddam commie.) She was required, after she arrived, to carry on her person proof of her immigrations status. Still she came, uncomplaining, because she spent the years 1940-45 living under the thumb of real Nazis.

Oh, and illegal immigrants REALLY piss her off.

I met my wife in college 27 years ago. She was an exchange student. When we married, we had to make two trips to be interviewed by Immigration. We had to sign a lot of papers saying, among other things, that if we ever went on any form of public assistance, she would be deported. Five years after we were married, she became a US citizen.

She hates illegal immigrants, too. They make all of the immigrants who played by the rules look like chumps. I don't know what happened to the prohibition against welfare while an immigrant. Today, it seems to be "Come to America and get free stuff."; 5/12/10, 7:14 PM
Chase said...: The American Left really could care less about the plight of illegal aliens/immigrants in this country. The American Left simply wants the votes of those sympathetic to the plight of illegal aliens/immigrants in this country.

Los Angeles City Councilman Ed Reyes, Racist Hispanic Mother-Fucker, said of the Arizona law, "As an American, I cannot go to Arizona today without a passport. If I come across an officer who’s having a bad day and feels that the picture on my ID is not me, I can be … deported, no questions asked. That is not American."

He's also a complete raving idiot.

council members compared Arizona’s action to Nazi Germany and the beginning of the Holocaust, as well as the internment and deportation of Japanese Americans during World War II. A new Arizona law

Simply unbelievable. Adults, paid to make adult decisions, talking out of their asses like 4 graders.

But then again, it's Los Angeles.; 5/12/10, 7:24 PM
Dustin said...: I am not joking when I say I am curious if this poll has the flaw of favoring English speakers.

Regardless, go Arizona! Too bad you can't have any of that crazy California government money they are positively flush with!; 5/12/10, 7:25 PM
Kirby Olson said...: Maybe Obama is some kind of innoculation against political correctness that will last a generation.

If he doesn't kill the country, he will make it stronger.; 5/12/10, 7:26 PM
GMay said...: My lesbian sister's Austalian partner with mad computer programming skills has been trying to become a citizen for a couple of years now (student visas). Has been forced to return to The Land Down Under at least one time that I can recall. She keeps trying to do it right, yet legal immigration seems to be a real bitch.

I keep telling her that since she lives in Texas now she should just drive down south and swim over.

Problem is, she's white.; 5/12/10, 7:33 PM
GMay said...: Oh, and she despises illegal immigrants.; 5/12/10, 7:34 PM
The Drill SGT said...: Slow Joe said...
Regardless, go Arizona! Too bad you can't have any of that crazy California government money they are positively flush with!

one sign in Arizona says:

Who cares, they only pay in IOU's!

somebody else noted that Arizona is a net supplier of both water and power to California. But California has not yet seen fit to pull the plug on either....; 5/12/10, 7:36 PM
garage mahal said...: Will some people get their widdle feeings hurt? Probably. Tough shit.

Whatever the cops want!; 5/12/10, 7:38 PM
Unknown said...: Repeal the law! Whatever the criminals want!

(Incidentally, I am also a child of legal immigrants who really dislike illegal immigration, and I probably look a lot like I might be an immigrant, but I was born here. And I always carry my driver's license.); 5/12/10, 7:43 PM
garage mahal said...: Yea, before this law hispanics could legally answer "no!" when asked for I.D. by law officers.; 5/12/10, 7:48 PM
Hagar said...: If you were a young Mexican thinking about going to the U.S. and considering the stories you had heard about the goings on in that country with regard to illegal immigration by Mexicans, what conclusions would you come to?

Are those crazy gringos really for or against it?; 5/12/10, 8:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Yea, before this law hispanics could legally answer "no!" when asked for I.D. by law officers.

If that's so, why the law?

More generally, why should illegal immigrants be allowed to remain in the country just because they are otherwise abiding by the law?; 5/12/10, 8:11 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Wow ! Garage- do you mean I can answer no when asked for ID or does that option only apply to Hispanics?

wv = pition illegal immigrants but they have broken our laws; 5/12/10, 8:15 PM
Unknown said...: Michael Hasenstab said...

I hope Americans will still refuse a National ID card.

So far that's what I'm seeing. Drivers' licenses for which birth certificates or passports must be produced.

I'm not sure I understand your points.

Americans already have a national ID card. It's their Social Security card. What's wrong with adding the holder's photo, description and home address?

Half correct. The SSN is Americans' national ID number and has been for 75 years, but the card can't be used for ID (the old ones said so), that's why driver's licenses are used.

Some states put the SSN on the license, but that's led to identity theft (as my sister-in-law could tell you). Since most Americans can flash their license and the SSN can be verified against that, any time somebody wants to see your license, just imagine Werner Klemperer saying, "May I zee your papers, mein Herr?".; 5/12/10, 8:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Democrats have been trying to have a national ID card for years. And their various leftists hangers-on like the ones here have been complaining that it is Orwellian. Therefore, since it's Orwellian, the Democrats who are pushing a national ID card cannot be pushing a national ID card because they are Democrats.

Conclusion: it must be Republicans pushing the national ID card that Democrats are pushing.

Once you understand the logic, it all makes sense. Right, HD?; 5/12/10, 8:21 PM
MadisonMan said...: Apparently I am in the minority.

I think the police should leave people alone. Asking for papers for no other reason than to ask for papers? How is that freedom?; 5/12/10, 8:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Asking for papers for no other reason than to ask for papers

Madison -- You know this isn't true. The point of the law is to find illegal immigrants, not to ask for papers as an end in itself.

I have to believe that you would give a poor grade to a student who tried to pass off such an easily identifiable falsehood.; 5/12/10, 8:26 PM
MadisonMan said...: The stoppee, must be doing something that they can legally be detained or questioned about.

I would say that the list of things one can be questioned about -- legally -- has length that approaches infinity.; 5/12/10, 8:28 PM
MadisonMan said...: Seven, I recognize that this is a nigh on intractable problem. I just don't think the solution is to give the government more power.

I'm not sure I can identify a solution. Arizona's little experiment might turn out nicely. Time will tell.; 5/12/10, 8:30 PM
Hagar said...: Do they even know what they want?; 5/12/10, 8:32 PM
The Dude said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/12/10, 8:34 PM
Michael Haz said...: I am more concerned that AG Eric Holder wants to weaken or perhaps eliminate Miranda rights for terrorists.

All that would remain would be for the government to revise the description of "terrorist" to be anyone who voices an anti-government opinion. Detained, arrested and locked up with no Miranda protections.

that's far, far worse than having to show one's ID.; 5/12/10, 8:35 PM
MayBee said...: I love the way the talk turns to asking for "papers" when this issue comes up.
Asking for a driver's license or ID card just doesn't sound dastardly enough, I suppose.

wv: latian Why yes, I am from LA; 5/12/10, 8:44 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: I just read an OPED by a longtime travel writer [Paul Theroux] and he said every other country allows their cops to ask for ID any old time they want. I suggest everyone google it and read it.

If he is accurate, why the hysteria here among the left?; 5/12/10, 8:54 PM
Synova said...: "i wonder how many people who answered with approval are assuming they'd never be asked to provide such documents."

You've never been stopped by the cops, have you.

If you ever in your life had been, not only would you be asked to provide documents, your car would require documents. In fact, the cops can stop you because they believe your car doesn't have up to date documents even if you've done nothing wrong at all.; 5/12/10, 8:58 PM
victoria said...: The more you righties try, the more like the Europeans we become. National ID cards, that's what will come next. Carry your passports with you, buddy, so you can prove that you are an American Citizen. What next, yellow stars on our clothes. You say Obama is a Nazi. Pish tosh. Arizona will become pre WWII Germany any day.
Ignoramus's.

Vicki from Pasadena; 5/12/10, 9:02 PM
Synova said...: Hey Vicki... drive without your license and registration much?; 5/12/10, 9:06 PM
dp said...: How many citizens if stopped can produce documents showing that you are a citizen? In Arizona drivers license isn't enough. You would need either a passport or 2 forms of id with one being a birth certificate. We would be able to cut into illegals if every employer was required to do e-verify. I just went through this and getting the required documents from the white tea party people was like pulling teeth. I say make it the law of the land and go with a national id card. The right wants control of the populous but are yet unwilling to do what should have been done after 911, institute a national id. Getting on a plane is a joke. Who at the counter knows what all 50 state drivers licenses look like? I got on a plane with a colleague who had a newer license and I had the old one. Being second I got stopped. I told the TSA guy how do you know that hers wasn't fake? Bottom line is that if you want to target illegals, go after the employers and get national id.; 5/12/10, 9:07 PM
traditionalguy said...: A J...It is very the existence of citizenship documents on election day that has our Party of Election Thieves sweating blood over a seeming non issue. But thankfully the TeaPartiers have stopped listening to the cons upon cons coming out of the mouths of the GOP and the Dems politicians alike. The simple truth is setting us free, very, very fast. Go Arizona. Your war Memorial was already established on 12/7/1941, but this time we will not let the enemy in the White House sink you!; 5/12/10, 9:09 PM
Palladian said...: "Hey Vicki... drive without your license and registration much?"

Scary to think of her on the road at all...

And for the record, I'm against any ID cards at all.; 5/12/10, 9:10 PM
victoria said...: Synova, anyone with the money can get a license and registration for the car. 18 year old's get phoney licenses in MacArthur Park in LA for $30.00 that pass the muster with cops all over the US.

Vicki; 5/12/10, 9:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Wherein DP demonstrates that, like so many leftist goofballs posting here, he knows nothing about the actual law.

A drivers license or a state ID is prima facie evidence of legal status.; 5/12/10, 9:16 PM
Anonymous said...: P.S. -- So DP's argument is that we certainly don't want anybody saying vere are your paperz?, we just want a national identification card required by the government that we must carry at all times.

Gotcha, dude.; 5/12/10, 9:21 PM
GMay said...: "Half correct. The SSN is Americans' national ID number and has been for 75 years, but the card can't be used for ID (the old ones said so), that's why driver's licenses are used.

DHS and the Real ID act established that a Social Security Card is an acceptable form of secondary ID when applying for things like a driver's license or military ID.

When I retired from the Marines in '08 and went to get my retired ID card, I looked down the accepted forms of identification list and whipped out my SSC. Same thing when I moved to FL and applied for a license.

I think there was a reason they removed the old wording.; 5/12/10, 9:23 PM
Derve Swanson said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 5/12/10, 9:23 PM
traditionalguy said...: FYO: fake drivers liscenses are so easy to get now, that there is a new private company offering a prescreening service that can verify all drivers liscenses to their holders to see that they are issued to legitiment drivers. Discuss that service.; 5/12/10, 9:24 PM
GMay said...: vicki projected: "Ignoramus's."

Despite the unassailable and irrefutable points pointing out existing identification requirements all. over. the. thread.

Besides, don't you leftards want us to be all European anyway?; 5/12/10, 9:27 PM
Anonymous said...: Mary -- Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. Having some knob blocking your license plate is illegal (I presume). Being in the country illegally is illegal (to your chagrin).

The police enforce both laws. Are you really making a Jesus argument here about casting the first stone? Really? Why?

By the way, the odds are very good that you committed a few felonies and misdemeanors already this week. So, using your sad excuse for logic, you should probably skulk away.; 5/12/10, 9:28 PM
Synova said...: "So you go out there, and you unscrew the ball and remove it from blocking the license plate. Period. That's the law. You don't have the cops waste taxpayer money, not once, but three times, pulling over you and hubby and reminding ya, "Hey white lady. The law applies to you too." Don't be forgetful when returning from the dump. Follow the Law. You don't like it? There's the exit..."

Geez, Mary. I thought it was pretty obvious that the ball hitch was an excuse to pull over an old beater pick-up truck that the cops think is carrying illegals, or probably isn't registered or some other thing. If they remove the hitch the excuse will change, that is all.; 5/12/10, 9:29 PM
GMay said...: Vicky missed the point: "Synova, anyone with the money can get a license and registration for the car. 18 year old's get phoney licenses in MacArthur Park in LA for $30.00 that pass the muster with cops all over the US."

And you're still going to be asked to produce ID, just. like. you. always. have.

Do you get the point now? No three or more syllable words were used in explaining this painfully simple point t.hat seems to elude you.; 5/12/10, 9:33 PM
Synova said...: "Synova, anyone with the money can get a license and registration for the car. 18 year old's get phoney licenses in MacArthur Park in LA for $30.00 that pass the muster with cops all over the US."

Well then, what's the problem?

The fact is that everyone, not just Hispanics, get asked for "papers" and are expected to carry "papers" and present them on request to police. Are you trying to tell me (or anyone else) that this isn't true?

The availability of fake "papers" is irrelevant to whether or not they must be presented, but since you say they are so easy to get, what is the big difficulty here?; 5/12/10, 9:33 PM
Anonymous said...: GMay -- Clearly, we should stop requiring licenses to drive or to show as evidence for drinking age, since fraud can and does occur.

We should also stop trying so hard to make our currency hard to counterfeit since counterfeiters exist and are successful.

In fact, since fraud can happen, all law about fraud should be abolished.

Your arguments are brilliant, Vicki. Keep it up.; 5/12/10, 9:35 PM
victoria said...: No G.May it is obvious that you righties want us to be like the Europeans. Having to prove our citizenship at every opportunity. ew

vicki; 5/12/10, 9:37 PM
traditionalguy said...: Also in the world of authentication, Lawyers have traditionally demanded the Corporate Resolution at a sale or loan closing. That is only one more piece of paper signed by the same people stating that they authorise themselves to sign the other documents. Occasionally it has a real purpose when a close Corporation has more known owners than can come to the closing. So what is it's real purpose? Simply it smokes out the Sellers who have faked corporate status by baffling them with the simple request. There is no bigger mess than title coming out of or into an assumed Corporate name when the Corporation never has had existence. Lawyers deal with stupid people all the time. Think of this and the fresh over the border immigrant asked for something.; 5/12/10, 9:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Vicki -- Why is it that Democratic legislators keep pushing national ID cards?

Will this question be ignored again?; 5/12/10, 9:38 PM
GMay said...: Vicki, you keep flailing about those strawmen hon. Maybe you'll knock one down.; 5/12/10, 9:39 PM
GMay said...: Ever been pulled over by a cop Vicki?; 5/12/10, 9:40 PM
GMay said...: That question wasn't too hard for ya was it Vicki?; 5/12/10, 9:41 PM
Derve Swanson said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 5/12/10, 9:41 PM
Anonymous said...: I give Vicki kudos for sticking around after being so blatantly destroyed. Vicki, you are Althouse's Peter McNeeley. I hope you are getting paid amply.; 5/12/10, 9:43 PM
GMay said...: "GMay -- Clearly, we should stop requiring licenses to drive or to show as evidence for drinking age, since fraud can and does occur."

This should be funny. Sadly some people *cough* Vicki *cough* actually think this poorly.; 5/12/10, 9:45 PM
Anonymous said...: Mary -- And all the illegal aliens leave, especially if they are busted under Arizona's new law. Right?

By the way, Mary, have you ever...

jaywalked? gone over the speed limit? parked illegally? torn the tag off a mattress?

Get real, dude. Your argument is still silly the second time. If you post it again, I'll have to worry about your sanity.; 5/12/10, 9:46 PM
Derve Swanson said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 5/12/10, 9:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Mary -- There are too many laws. As I have said, you have broken several this week simply going about your daily life. Everyone has.

It is hard to go a single day in this country without committing a felony. That's not because we are a bad group of people.; 5/12/10, 9:49 PM
Trooper York said...: "Vicki, you are Althouse's Peter McNeeley"

Hey I don't agree with anything Vicki says but that's not nice.

Besides she is move like George Chuvalo!; 5/12/10, 9:50 PM
Derve Swanson said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 5/12/10, 9:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Well, then, Mary, how can you make that argument with a straight face?

Speaking of hallucinogens, though, where can I get some?; 5/12/10, 9:51 PM
Phil 314 said...: An unreported illegal immigration enforcement crisis reported here

The Border Patrol's Tucson sector, the busiest in the nation, logged 241,673 apprehensions last fiscal year. In comparison, federal agents in Arizona tracked down and arrested 27 people who had overstayed their visas...Visa violators represent nearly half of the 11 million illegal immigrants in the country...

This gentleman overstayed his visa; so did this guy.

As far as I know no one crossing the US Mexican border illegally has committed crimes similar to these two.; 5/12/10, 9:52 PM
Synova said...: "No G.May it is obvious that you righties want us to be like the Europeans. Having to prove our citizenship at every opportunity. ew "

I agree. Ew.

But what are places like Arizona supposed to do if the Feds don't control the border? Did you happen to see the You Tube video that the governor of Arizona put out? This isn't about fussing over jobs or a drain on taxes, it's about crime; about murders and kidnappings. The level of violence, murders and kidnappings on the Mexican side of the US border are at a scale that defies comprehension to our civilized sensibilities.

Do we ignore that and ask cops to look the other way so that the undocumented are not harassed?; 5/12/10, 9:54 PM
Derve Swanson said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 5/12/10, 9:54 PM
Synova said...: Mary, it's Dust Bunny's truck.

But I can say with confidence even without seeing it that the ball hitch does not *actually* block the license plate enough to worry over.; 5/12/10, 9:58 PM
Anonymous said...: It really makes a lot of sense for the states to take on ordinary immigration violations committed by normal, ordinary people who really just want a better life so that the federal government can concentrate its resources on terrorists and drug smugglers.

The outrage here seems to me to be totally on auto-pilot. These people are not thinking. They are just reacting shrilly.; 5/12/10, 10:01 PM
chickelit said...: FLS got on my case a week or so ago because I said that I was always asked to produce ID when voting. I've voted in 4 different states and this has always been the case. I don't think it's at all unusual or unreasonable.; 5/12/10, 10:01 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Trooper - that may have been the golden age of heavyweight boxing. There were a lot of capable contenders to battle Ali and Frazier. Chuvalo was one and I remember Ernie Terrell and who was the guy from S. America?

Then there were the cannon fodder including Bayonn Bleeder and Jerry Quarry.; 5/12/10, 10:04 PM
Michael said...: Maybe we'd be more inclined to fear the cop asking for ID if we hadn't been told how ridiculous it was to fear the panel of bureiacrats deciding whether we get medical treatment.; 5/12/10, 10:07 PM
Derve Swanson said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 5/12/10, 10:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Mary -- I think the point here is that cops can always find a reason to pull you over.

Once, this girl and I were headed back to Chicago from Oak Park after teaching a class. She was driving her old, beat up tri-color Volvo and she decided to take the surface roads, which go through some sketchy neighborhoods.

Sure enough, the cops pulled us over because two young white people in a car like that in that neighborhood had to be buying drugs. The driver asked why we were pulled over and it was "illegal lane change."

The cops searched the car high and low for a really long time and they were sorely disappointed.

And I am still looking for a hallucinogen connection.; 5/12/10, 10:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Do you think it's possible that 73% favor showing docs to verify legal status to police in light of the fact that they have been conditioned by the Nanny State to show docs to drug store clerks, liquor store clerks, the guys at Best Buy, the folks at TSA, etc. etc. etc. ? They reap what they sowed.

You have to show ID to buy liquor if you're under 40. You have to show ID to buy sudafed. You have to show ID to buy cigarettes at a convenience store. You have to show ID at the doc's office to "protect patients from insurance fraud." You have to show ID to get on an airplane. You might have to to get on a train. You have to show ID to purchase a car even in cash. And if you're not an illegal, "license and registration" are required when the cops pull you over.

People should be outraged about the above. But they've long since past outrage. So now, it's just that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

There seem to only be two places that the Left disapproves of ID:

in AZ if you're trying to stop suspected criminals, and in the ballot box.; 5/12/10, 10:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Oh, so this is the Mary? I'm sorry. I wondered why the posts I was replying to kept disappearing. The thought did cross my mind but I figured, such a common name...

My bad for encouraging, Althouse.; 5/12/10, 10:22 PM
Derve Swanson said...: Whoops. Sorry.

Some of my posts stay up. Some get deleted.

You never know what the commenting/filtering process is going to be, from one day to the next, it seems.

Kidding about the hallucinogens in the glove box, of course. Think: hollowed out ball hitch...; 5/12/10, 10:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Are you Mary of Mary fame? Because if you aren't, you might want to change your screen name to post here.

If you are, I think Althouse has made it pretty clear that you she wants you to go away.; 5/12/10, 10:28 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Now I remember - Oscar Bonavena was the heavyweight boxer from S. America.; 5/12/10, 10:31 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Seven:

This Sunday, I think the Meet The Press moderator is going to crib your example about ID and ask his guests to answer it.

[I made that up of course. The talking heads would never actually think for himself.]; 5/12/10, 10:34 PM
foxymike said...: ... and, after I've been pulled over by a cop and shown him/her my driver's license, the next thing I show him is my concealed weapons carry permit. The next thing you know, I'm deemed to be a pretty generally law abiding guy, and I'm on my way quickly. Funny how that happens; 5/12/10, 10:36 PM
Titus said...: Good evening fellow republicans.

Just returned from Mad City.

God, how depressing that city is.

Hardly any brownies and the blackies are nasty.

Restaurants close at 9:00.

Went to some Cupcake Restaurant on Atwood that thought it was some place in Soho or the South End-not.

Went to my parents cottage on Lake Delton and it was fucking freezing.

Did love my Paison's/The Bridge in Okee/Waun A Bowl/Ell'as meals though.

I am a fag and don't care if Kagan is a dyke.

Looked at sublets on Willy Street and Atwood. They were cheap and all that but I don't know? Will I survive for 6 months? Six months in Madison and 6 months in Bangalore and then likely back to NYC or Boston-not in the city though because I will be 40 in three months and am now officially to old to be a "city girl". It's all about the suburbs for me or even small town-the small town needs to be fab though, with plenty of take out options and a fab gym. Is that impossible to find?

Getting off the plane and being greeted by hot ethnic baggage guys and taxi drivers was nice though. Not that I would touch them because I am married I just like to know they are around.

I always need to jerky jerky when I return from Madison.; 5/12/10, 10:37 PM
GMay said...: "There seem to only be two places that the Left disapproves of ID:

in AZ if you're trying to stop suspected criminals, and in the ballot box."

Love it. Mind if I steal it?; 5/12/10, 10:38 PM
GMay said...: So what's the deal with Mary? I'm still new here.; 5/12/10, 10:40 PM
Anonymous said...: GMay -- A long time ago, there was a Mary here who would from time to time go ballistic on Althouse. Sometimes she was normal, if a little trollish. Other times, insane and incoherent.

Althouse had some kind of back story with her. I think that Mary may have been a student of Althouse's at one time. Whatever the case, Althouse told her to leave and she would, but she would come back. So Althouse just started deleting her posts without any ado.

I spend way too much time here.; 5/12/10, 10:43 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Gmay:

Once upon a time, there was an ex-student [?] who kinda stalked this blog. Disagreed vehemently and nastily with almost everything Althouse wrote or thought. So she was flagged from the blog.; 5/12/10, 10:44 PM
Titus said...: It's fucking dark out there too.

Drive from Waunakee to Madison at 9:00 and you are the only person on the road. Fucking scary.

My sister lives in a fab country home in Mazomanie and went on a "Mule" ride through the 80 acre forest on her land. It was fab. Also went three wheeling with my dad at the farm.

My dad has many properties. A hunting lodge in Bruce, Wisconsin. A hunting cabin in Bozeman Montana. A condo in Surprise Arizona. A lake home by Wisconsin Dells. A farm in Lodi Wisconsin and a home in Waunakee Wisconsin. As well as an apartment complex in Middleton that has 32 units. I told him he should rent out the second homes in order to make some money. He is reluctant but I think that it what we will do.

Also, say Cranes, White Tail Deer, Bald Eagle in Sauk, Turkeys etc.

Do you know my my dad owns my mom's farm in Lodi? My mom grew up there and when she was young they had no indoor toilet. Also, many of my parents friends, who are now incredibly rich farmers in Waunakee, have no high school education. My dad said they didn't go to school, they went to work on the farm instead.

So really I am a small town girl who has experienced the big city. How will the transition to the small town be for this big city girl?; 5/12/10, 10:44 PM
Revenant said...: lets be clear, this sort of requirement would lead primarily to questioning people who are non-white

Assuming you consider Hispanics "non-white", yes. But only around 6% of illegal immigrants are "white" under that definition. It is awfully hard to avoid "primarily questioning people who are non-white" when 96% of the criminals in question are non-white.; 5/12/10, 10:46 PM
Titus said...: Went with the Rental Agent to look at some units by the square and each of them said, "you can walk to the Farmers Market". "Ever been there"?

Like it was some Donny Osmond concert or something.

I was like bitch I paid more for parking than this unit costs don't talk to me about some lame farmers market.; 5/12/10, 10:48 PM
Anonymous said...: Titus -- The transition will go terrible. I found New York a little too dramatic both times I lived there but Chicago is about as laidback and rustic as I could possibly stomach now for any length of time.

Get back to Chelsea or come here. Maybe Boston or the Bay Area or some big city abroad. That's my advice.; 5/12/10, 10:49 PM
Titus said...: I do have to say though Madison has embraced Frank Lloyd Wright though.

Can I say enough with the embrace?

It really is too much.

I did see one cool place though on N Pinckney that I liked very much.; 5/12/10, 10:52 PM
chickelit said...: @Titus you were paged at TY: link

I'll be back in Wisco in August.; 5/12/10, 10:52 PM
Revenant said...: How many citizens if stopped can produce documents showing that you are a citizen? In Arizona drivers license isn't enough.

From the text of the law in question:

A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.; 5/12/10, 10:52 PM
Synova said...: As someone mentioned earlier... this is Southern Arizona... white (non-Hispanic) people are a minority.

Most of the police are "non-white."

I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a similar law in New Mexico. And again, most of the police doing the asking will be Hispanic.

People have this weird notion that Hispanics are a minority ethnic group.; 5/12/10, 10:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Synova -- Probably in the places where people are whining about the unfairness of all this, Hispanics are a minority.

Also, Rev, since you have the law there: is there a deportation hearing after any arrest? Almost certainly there is, so that's full due process.; 5/12/10, 10:56 PM
Titus said...: Seven, I think I may be going to Chicago.

My husband needs to be in India for a year because of VISA issues but after a year he can return to the states.

He is an Automation Tester specializing in something Robot. Maybe Rational Robot and those people are in demand.

Chicago could be good. Also, its fucking dirty cheap in comparison to what I have been living in.; 5/12/10, 10:57 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: How many citizens if stopped can produce documents showing that you are a citizen? In Arizona drivers license isn't enough. You would need either a passport or 2 forms of id with one being a birth certificate.

Actually, in AZ, an AZ driver's license is enough, as well as other state IDs that require proof of a legal right to be here to be issued. Ditto for driver's licenses from states that also require such.

Read the new law.

Unfortunately, that does not include California driver's licenses, since yes, illegals can, and do acquire them.; 5/12/10, 10:58 PM
Synova said...: "Synova -- Probably in the places where people are whining about the unfairness of all this, Hispanics are a minority."

Well, yes, probably. But I don't really view being insular as a virtue.; 5/12/10, 11:01 PM
Anonymous said...: Titus -- When I moved here first, my income was cut in half and my quality of life in terms of being able to rent an apartment and just buy stuff tripled. At least.

As long as you live in the right couple of neighborhoods here, Chicago is like a lower-stress version of Manhattan where you can afford a pretty nice place on a decent salary. I can't recommend it highly enough.; 5/12/10, 11:01 PM
Titus said...: My husband purchased my mom a fab Pashmina from Nepal and D&G perfume for Mothers Day.

I got her a flower "pouch" for her house and a beautiful diamond necklace. Total costs 1950.00.

My sisters gave here a park pass for the summer which kind of pissed me off because she seemed more excited about it.

I purchased for my husband the following Madison items: a farting cow, a Madison painting, a Madison tshirt, and chocolate-because he loves chocolate.

Oh I forget to mention Culvers. Love Culvers. Thank you Culvers. I went to the first Culvers in Sauk this weekend. Also, went to Blue Moon in Middleton.

Madison, please embrace foodler as well.; 5/12/10, 11:04 PM
GMay said...: Thanks for the answers on Mary.

Can I learn the secret handshake next?; 5/12/10, 11:05 PM
Titus said...: Hi Synova,

Kisses.; 5/12/10, 11:07 PM
Revenant said...: Seven, it looks to me like the law just authorizes AZ law enforcement to hand the perp over to the feds.; 5/12/10, 11:08 PM
Anonymous said...: Actually, GMay, this rare appearance by Titus tonight is much better than the handshake.; 5/12/10, 11:11 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: I should have finished the thread before responding. Revenant was good enough to provide the relevant section of the new law.

Bringing this all together, this is really not any more onerous for the citizens and legal residents of Arizona than buying liquor, cigarettes, or Sudafed. They show their Arizona driver's license, and are done.

Yes, it is worse for those who are here illegally, just as it is for those who try to buy booze when they are underage.

I should also note that in another discussion on another blog, someone living on the border pointed out that the cops there, as well as the people living there, could pick out very recent immigrants, mostly illegal, at 100 feet. (And in this case, those picking them out were almost entirely Hispanic). They do this by dress, mannerisms, and even maybe height. And then, if there is any doubt, when they talk to them, it becomes obvious - language.; 5/12/10, 11:13 PM
vnjagvet said...: As a permanent resident, it is your responsibility to:
• Obey all federal, state, and local laws.
• Pay federal, state, and local income taxes.
• Register with the Selective Service (U.S. Armed
Forces), if you are a male between ages 18 and 26.
See page 11 for instructions.
• Maintain your immigration status.
• Carry proof of your permanent resident status at all times.
• Change your address online or provide it in writingto the Department of Homeland Security DHS) within 10 days of each time you move. See page 12 for instructions.

Quoted from Welcome to the United States a Guide for new Immigrants, an official publication of the US Citizenship and Immigration Services, at page 8.

All this BS about "papers" is just that. BS; 5/12/10, 11:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Let me ask you whiners about this law a couple questions...

Have you ever been abroad? Have you ever been to a country that requires a visa? If you have, did you keep that visa close to you at all times? If you haven't, what do you think you'd do with your visa if you were, say, in Vietnam? If the police stopped you and you couldn't produce evidence that you were in the country legally, what do you suppose would happen? Why?

And don't give me any shit about how the United States is somehow exempt from protecting its borders because we are somehow better than Vietnam.; 5/12/10, 11:21 PM
Mian said...: Unfortunately, that does not include California driver's licenses, since yes, illegals can, and do acquire them.

Too bad Clifornian's --legal or otherwise-- aren't deported back to California simply for being Californians. (Real estate prices would be cheaper in Sedona and Santa Fe!); 5/12/10, 11:31 PM
John henry said...: Mariner said:

"So far that's what I'm seeing. Drivers' licenses for which birth certificates or passports must be produced."

State law, in my state anyway, says that I have to be a citizen or a legal immigrant to be issued a driver's license. Thus the passport requirement.

However, there is no law that says I must have a drivers license at all or that I need to be able to produce one other than when operating a car on public roads.

If it were a national ID card, there would be a requirement that I be able to produce it at any time.

I see the voluntariness of the license as a huge difference.

John HEnry; 5/12/10, 11:47 PM
John henry said...: I might also ad that in Arizona, any govt issued document, such as a drivers license, which presumes citizenship/legal status, must be accepted by the police as proof of legal status.

A side note: In my state, PR, we have a highly secure, govt issued, voter ID card. This, along with other measures, assures that we pretty much have zero voter fraud or even accusations thereof in our elections.

Originally it was illegal for anyone to accept it as ID for any purpose other than voting related. That has been relaxed and now I can use it for ID, for cashing a check, for example. I can't be asked to produce it in any non-electoral matter.

John Henry; 5/12/10, 11:52 PM
reader_iam said...: Wow. And upon my word. (And then some.); 5/13/10, 12:19 AM
Methadras said...: Ah, Titus the vacuous entity graces Althouse with his meaninglessness once again. Titus, when I say your sheen has worn thin I'm not talking about your after-hog glow either, honey.; 5/13/10, 1:10 AM
jr565 said...: Should we be outraged if a police man asks us for our license and registration when pulling us over? Is there really that big a difference? "Your papers please! Heil Hitler".
Somehow the majority of people in this country can turn over said papers as needed and then go about their business and get on with life.
As Dust Bunny said, police can't willy nilly demand you to show your papers willy nilly. They need cause to pull you over in the first place.
And what about legal immigrants with green cards, or who are going through the process of becoming citizens. Are they not required to carry around identification to show that in fact they are legal? Are people on student visas somehow not required to show their visa, abasent other id, if they are pulled over. Why should illegals somehow be exempt from producing identification like everyone else.
Ah yes, racism.; 5/13/10, 1:17 AM
Chip Ahoy said...: The thought of my Mexican friends and acquaintances being compelled to prove their citizenship is a total pisser.; 5/13/10, 1:25 AM
blake said...: MadMan sez I would say that the list of things one can be questioned about -- legally -- has length that approaches infinity.

Which would be the real problem.

Against IDs as a general rule, against car registration, for open borders, live in L.A. where (if you count the illegals) Hispanics have at least a plurality.

That said, the arguments against the AZ ID thing have been phenomenally stupid, and reminiscent of the stupid arguments made against putting up a wall.

They've actually gotten dumber. They're still hammering on the "jobs Americans won't do" meme. Sorry, guys, there aren't any of those any more...; 5/13/10, 2:01 AM
WhatWasLost said...: I live in Arizona and I'd just like to point out that this law does NOT give the police the power to arbitrarily stop someone and demand proof of citizenship or legal residence.

What it does do is require police to ascertain the legal status of someone they have already stopped for another reason.

So if you're walking down the street, minding your own business, and not doing anything that would cause a police officer to suspect you of a crime, he or she is NOT going to interrogate you about your legal status.

Where this law will usually come into play is during traffic stops. When you get pulled over for speeding, or for some other reason, what do the police ask for?

That's right, your drivers' license.

Legal residents of Arizona carry proof of their status in their wallet. Arizona does not issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens, so anyone with an AZ license is, by definition, not an illegal alien.

AZ does issue licenses to LEGAL immigrants and to people who have green cards or long-term visas. When someone with a green card or a visa gets an AZ license, it expires on the same day as their green card or visa, making it very easy to determine their legal status simply by looking at the date on their license.

AZ licenses normally expire on your 65th birthday, so US citizens are also easy to identify.

There is no gestapo nonsense going on. There are no rights violations in the works. No one is going to be deported because they "look Mexican."

Everything I read about this law is long on condemnation and short on truth. They can't actually talk about the law as it is written because to do so would only encourage American's to support it. So instead they invent straw man arguments to attack.

The leftists who are doing this are going to regret it. The harder they double down on the lies, the more average people figure out that they are being lied to. Their ability to deceive the American people is coming to an end.; 5/13/10, 2:32 AM
Anonymous said...: "The thought of my Mexican friends and acquaintances being compelled to prove their citizenship is a total pisser."

Why, exactly? Do you think when they're stopped by police for running stop signs they shouldn't be required to produce their driver's license and registration and proof of insurance?

Why should illegal aliens not have to produce their "papers" when average Americans are required to do it all the time?

Do you think illegal aliens should be allowed to cash checks at banks without having to prove their identity?

Do you think illegal alien minors should be able to waltz into bars without having to prove they are 21 years of age? Why should they be able to do that when Americans can't even do that?

Do you think illegal aliens should be allowed to get federal benefits without actually having to prove they are in our country legally? Americans have to prove their identity when applying for federal benefits. Why should people from Mexico not have to do this?

I appreciate your concerns, Chip, but on examination, they just don't hold up. We don't live in a police state merely because from time-to-time Americans are required to produce a driver's license or birth certificate to establish our identity.

Mexican-Americans, and immigrants here illegally, should face the exact same requirements as law-abiding Americans have to face every day.

The left is losing the immigration debate because their arguments just don't hold much water once you get past the politically-driven faux hysterics of the left.

Shortly, when the left is out of power for good, having lost their good will with the country with their gestapo-like takeover tactics, we're going to reform the country and eliminate 17% unemployment by removing from our country people who are stealing jobs from law-abiding Americans.

It's not the right people fear. And you can see this demonstrated in this poll. It's the left's fascist tendencies that people rightly fear.

And we're setting about unemployment the political eft because these fears have been materialized. People can see actual damage being done to our country by your political party.

And they're fed up with it and just will not stand for it any longer.; 5/13/10, 6:08 AM
MadisonMan said...: I went to the first Culvers in Sauk this weekend. Also, went to Blue Moon in Middleton.

The Blue Spoon in Prairie du Sac is so much better than the one in Middleton.

Or are you talking about the Blue Moon -- formerly Merck's -- on old University?; 5/13/10, 7:35 AM
Kirby Olson said...: The left will start to scream that illegals should just wear yellow stars. They always want to simplify problems, and drag it back to the same evil versus good arguments. I don't see what's wrong with the law, and with following the law. How can we have a community of negotiation and consent when a huge part of the community is here without the majority's consent, and refuses any kind of rational negotiation?

If confronted, they just say, we will murder you, or call you a racist, and thus demonize you. It's impossible to negotiation with such people who immediately turn to terrorism as their first and only line of argument.; 5/13/10, 8:37 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I don't see what's wrong with the law, and with following the law.

I never understood what was wrong with following the established immigration law to begin with. I have yet, to hear one valid reason why millions of people south of the border should be exempt from the immigration laws that Europeans, Africans and Asians are required to follow in order to become citizens.

Someone, anyone, give me one valid reason why poeple from Mexico and Central America should not be required to follow the immigration laws on the books.

I'll wait.; 5/13/10, 8:40 AM
GMay said...: "They're still hammering on the "jobs Americans won't do" meme. Sorry, guys, there aren't any of those any more..."

That's the only good thing that might come of this recession - American labor having more realistic compensatory expectations for low-skilled labor.

Maybe we can get then get rid of the idea of a "living wage" where people think they're entitled to raise a family of 4 on what they make from hosing down the parking lot in between flipping burgers.

wv: hythy - the type of fit Titus throws.; 5/13/10, 8:44 AM
Opus One Media said...: I'm simply agog over the potential of a regularly old Waspy New England person, dropping by the local hardware, leaving his wallet and drivers license at home as it is only a mile to the store where he has shopped for a couple decades, doing a rolling stop at the corner, being pulled over and when unable to produce a license is asked for his citizenship papers....or do I see this as a slippery slope that no one else here sees.; 5/13/10, 8:57 AM
AllenS said...: The thought of making illegals wear yellow stars is outrageously stupid. I'm thinking of something in the shape of a taco.; 5/13/10, 8:57 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I'm simply agog over the potential of a regularly old Waspy New England person, dropping by the local hardware, leaving his wallet and drivers license at home as it is only a mile to the store where he has shopped for a couple decades, doing a rolling stop at the corner, being pulled over and when unable to produce a license is asked for his citizenship papers....or do I see this as a slippery slope that no one else here sees.

What slippery slope? We don't have the AZ law here in flyover Hoosierland but if you're stopped by the po-lice for a moving violation and you're unable to produce a driver's license, the
po-liceman has the ah-toritay to haul your waspy ass right down to the po-lice station.

See that's why you have to have a driver's license on your person when you decide to go down to the hardware store (or in your case the CVS to get your Depends). This isn't exactly groundbreaking.; 5/13/10, 9:01 AM
MadisonMan said...: Am I the only one here who has his Drivers License number memorized?

I have often wondered what a Police Officer would do if, pulling me over (and I don't have the dl on me), I just told him (or her) the letter followed by 13-digits.; 5/13/10, 9:02 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: when unable to produce a license is asked for his citizenship papers

Oh, and it isn't a citizenship check you silly goose, its a check on legal residency. There is a difference so you might want to look it up.; 5/13/10, 9:03 AM
GMay said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/13/10, 9:04 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I have often wondered what a Police Officer would do if, pulling me over (and I don't have the dl on me), I just told him (or her) the letter followed by 13-digits.

Well as I esplained to hdhouse, in Indiana, you can get a free ride to the police station if you can't show a driver's license following a traffic stop. Obviously this is discretionary but its not unheard of either. Otherwise, there really isn't a point to have a DL is there?; 5/13/10, 9:06 AM
GMay said...: HDH, I'm simply agog that you're stretching so hard to reach some sort of psuedo-totalitarian outcome with that absolutely, perfectly, totally dreadful scenario. AGOG I tell you!

So tell me, before any of these racist, thuggish, teabagger policies were even dreamed up by our neighborhood commissars, what would have happened to that clearly racist, waspy driver for driving without a license?; 5/13/10, 9:06 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: HDH, I'm simply agog that you're stretching so hard to reach some sort of psuedo-totalitarian outcome with that absolutely, perfectly, totally dreadful scenario.

Well thats the only way he can make an argument against what is basically, a common sense approach to combatting illegal immigration.

Seriously, the left has to demonize this because they can't provide a valid reason why those crossing the southern border should be exempt from the same immigration laws that Euros, Africans and Asians must follow.; 5/13/10, 9:12 AM
Calypso Facto said...: Blake said: "They've actually gotten dumber. They're still hammering on the "jobs Americans won't do" meme. Sorry, guys, there aren't any of those any more..."

Actually there ARE jobs Americans won't do...because unemployment compensation has become nigh on permanent.

Re: Madison Man. Agree about Blue Spoon being the better choice. But Blue Moon will do in a pinch when you don't want to make the additional trek to PdS. I thought about giving Titus some rental leads, but then reconsidered for my own sake.... I'm a fan of low-drama neighbors.; 5/13/10, 9:13 AM
former law student said...: if the President and the political elite had not pressured us to think the Arizona law was outrageously racist.

Protests that week outside Wrigley Field, at Cubs games televised across the nation, probably made some people consider the issue.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/29/AR2010042903053.html

When did Sheriff Arpaio's parents come here from Napoli, as he claimed? When the US border was open to Southern Italians? Or after the Johnson-Reed act of 1924, which limited the ingress of such undesirables, favoring residents of Germany, the British Isles, and Scandinavia.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5078

If so, could the Arpaio parents have been wetbacks, with Arpaio their anchor baby? He was born in 1930, years after the Johnson-Reed quotas were imposed.; 5/13/10, 9:17 AM
The Dude said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/13/10, 9:19 AM
AllenS said...: HDH should wear some form of ID. Something in the shape of a lemon.; 5/13/10, 9:26 AM
former law student said...: I just read an OPED by a longtime travel writer [Paul Theroux] and he said every other country allows their cops to ask for ID any old time they want. I suggest everyone google it and read it.

If he is accurate, why the hysteria here among the left?

I read an article by a longtime travel writer who said that every other country bans handgun ownership, or so regulates it to make it practically impossible.

If he is accurate, why the hysteria here among the right?; 5/13/10, 9:26 AM
GMay said...: "Bottom line, he is in no position to tell us what to do or take the moral high ground. He is immoral and a criminal."

Since this is tax related, sounds like he has a future in the Obama Administration.; 5/13/10, 9:27 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "We are here today to send a clear message to the state of Arizona that we are going to boycott" until lawmakers repeal the immigration law and stop criminalizing immigrants."

Maybe the protesters would have a bit more credibility if they at least were honest. Immigrants aren't criminals. Illegal immigrants, are. Hence, the term, illegal.

Again, can someone provide a valid reason why those crossing the southern border should not be required to follow the same immigration laws as Euros, Africans, Asians.

Seems the inability to answer such a simple query belies a preference for one demographic over a whole bunch of others. I thought we were supposed to be beyond all that.; 5/13/10, 9:27 AM
GMay said...: Ok, that was too easy. But this thread is dead and we have no new fodder from the Prof.; 5/13/10, 9:28 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I read an article by a longtime travel writer who said that every other country bans handgun ownership, or so regulates it to make it practically impossible.

If he is accurate, why the hysteria here among the right?

I think its called the second amendment. Maybe you've heard of it?

Actually if I recall, its pretty easy to own a pistole in Finland.; 5/13/10, 9:29 AM
GMay said...: Again, clearly illustrating why he chose his handle, former law student writes: "I read an article by a longtime travel writer who said that every other country bans handgun ownership, or so regulates it to make it practically impossible.

If he is accurate, why the hysteria here among the right?"

Hysteria. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

You see, former law student, demanding that the law be enforced and adhered to is not "hysterics", it's called a hallmark of an advanced society.

Try approaching the discussion head on, instead of a crappy oblique approach.; 5/13/10, 9:36 AM
Robert Cook said...: This shows what passive sheep we have become. 50 years ago Americans would have given the raspberry to any suggestion that we would be required to show our papers on request. I wonder how many of those approving of this are also Teepers carrying around guns and wearing "Don't Tread On Me" t-shirts?; 5/13/10, 9:37 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Again, clearly illustrating why he chose his handle, former law student writes.....

Louis Tully: Your Honor, ladies and gentleman of the audience, I don't think it's fair to call my clients frauds. Sure, the blackout was a big problem for everybody. I was trapped in an elevator for two hours and I had to make the whole time. But I don't blame them. Because one time, I turned into a dog and they helped me. Thank you.

Egon: Very good, Louis. Short, but pointless.

Ghostbusters II, 1989; 5/13/10, 9:40 AM
Robert Cook said...: "The left will start to scream that illegals should just wear yellow stars."

Where do you get such a ridiculous notion? To the extent there is an actual "left" in this country, they will be the first to decry this law outright. They will hardly propose a more offensive way to enforce it.; 5/13/10, 9:42 AM
Scott M said...: I read an article by a longtime travel writer who said that every other country bans handgun ownership, or so regulates it to make it practically impossible.

If he is accurate, why the hysteria here among the right?

First, cite the article you're talking about, otherwise I'll assume you're just participating in superfluous snark. Not even good snark in this case.

You're comparing apples to oranges. In this country, as with many others, we have laws that require ID. We simply don't enforce the laws already on the books.

Unlike most countries, we have a Constitutionally-protected right to own and bear firearms.

Fail.; 5/13/10, 9:42 AM
former law student said...: I think its called the second amendment

The founders were smart enough to spell out one freedom that they never wanted government to take away. There was no ID technology at that time to prompt a "freedom from ID" clause.

In our frontier society, people could disappear from their old home town and reappear somewhere else, getting a fresh start, often with a new name. Now that we will all be tracked by satellite and microchip implanted between the shoulderblades, it's hard not to see that we've given up some of our freedoms. YMMV; 5/13/10, 9:42 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: This shows what passive sheep we have become. 50 years ago Americans would have given the raspberry to any suggestion that we would be required to show our papers on request.

Um...actually 50 years ago you did have to show papers (drivers license, identification) when pulled over for a traffic violation or for suspiscion of criminal activity.

Hell I had to show ID just last week when I was purchasing a bottle of 12 year old Glenlivit. I was quite flattered.

What's the problem?; 5/13/10, 9:42 AM
Phil 314 said...: Synova;
As someone mentioned earlier... this is Southern Arizona... white (non-Hispanic) people are a minority.

Actually not exactly. Here's data for Pima County (Tucson): 33%
Santa Cruz (Nogales): 80%
Yuma 56%
Graham (where the rancher was shot) 28%

FLS;
Re: Sheriff Joe. Yes, I've thought the same thing especially since in the early 1900's Italian immigrants were viewed much the same as we view Mexican immigrants today. And yes, Sheriff Joe's ancestors came over during that period.; 5/13/10, 9:45 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: In our frontier society, people could disappear from their old home town and reappear somewhere else, getting a fresh start, often with a new name.

Yes and you can do the same thing today, actually fairly easy. Its called identity theft.

Again, can someone please give me one valid reason that those crossing the southern border should be exempt from the same immigration laws that Euros, Africans and Asians must follow?; 5/13/10, 9:46 AM
AllenS said...: Cook,

Fifty years ago, we had this thing called the draft. Most young men went, not because we were sheep, but because we felt it was an obligation that we needed to honor. You're a child.

50 years ago, if a policeman asked you for your ID, and you told him to fuck off, you would have been picking your sorry ass up off the pavement. With a walnut size lump on your forehead.; 5/13/10, 9:46 AM
former law student said...: The argument was proposed that we Americans should not mind the loss of a freedom that citizens of other countries do not have. I thought that argument was bullshit -- if I wanted to live in a police state I would move to one -- and illustrated its bullshititude with an analogy.; 5/13/10, 9:46 AM
former law student said...: can someone please give me one valid reason that those crossing the southern border should be exempt from the same immigration laws that Euros, Africans and Asians must follow?

Don't Asians and Africans cross our southern border? Preventing Middle Eastern terrorists from strolling in from the south has been advanced as justification for securing our southern border.

But if the law only applies to Hispanic types, does that not make the law racist as applied?; 5/13/10, 9:49 AM
Phil 314 said...: And for those on the right who see Sheriff Joe as some sort of hero do a google search on his spending and budgeting...
The man can spend the money. I mean how many County sheriff departments have a TANK!; 5/13/10, 9:51 AM
Robert Cook said...: "50 years ago, if a policeman asked you for your ID, and you told him to fuck off, you would have been picking your sorry ass up off the pavement. With a walnut size lump on your forehead."

Whereas today you'll be promptly electrocuted. Cops haven't become any less bullies with the passing of time, but Americans have certainly become more compliant.

The draft during WWII is in no way comparable to a law requiring that one must have one's identification on one's person at all times in case a cop might ask to see it. "A child" is what authoritarians call those who object to the intrusive overreach of the authorities.; 5/13/10, 9:54 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Don't Asians and Africans cross our southern border? Preventing Middle Eastern terrorists from strolling in from the south has been advanced as justification for securing our southern border.

Do they? It's a logical assumption that they had to fly from Asia and Africa to get to Mexico or Central America who have even stricter entry requirements than we do. That being said, they could simply fly into La Guardia and disappear no? Much easier than to fly into Mexico City and then trudge across the desert.

I mean if you could provide some numbers of substantial illegal immigration by Asians and Africans crossing here from Mexico I might agree with you but alas, I'll just go on the belief you're tossing out another red herring.; 5/13/10, 9:55 AM
Scott M said...: But if the law only applies to Hispanic types, does that not make the law racist as applied?

More fail. Please point to a law that targets Hispanics rather than applying to everyone within that law's jurisdiction.; 5/13/10, 9:55 AM
GMay said...: Ahhh Robert Cook, the guy who's left of Kucinich and thinks he's a moderate.

What else does one say when the "papers" meme has been so utterly destroyed in one thread? Beating a dead horse? Squeezing blood from a turnip? Missing the point entirely? Lacking a basic understanding of identification requirements that have existed for decades?

Seriously, what do you say to these people?; 5/13/10, 9:56 AM
GMay said...: Robert Cook fantasized: "Whereas today you'll be promptly electrocuted."

I used to read through everything you wrote. Can't make it past this utterly stupid remark this time though.; 5/13/10, 9:58 AM
AllenS said...: The draft lasted well after WWII. You can look it up.; 5/13/10, 9:59 AM
GMay said...: fls: "Don't Asians and Africans cross our southern border? Preventing Middle Eastern terrorists from strolling in from the south has been advanced as justification for securing our southern border.

But if the law only applies to Hispanic types, does that not make the law racist as applied?"

Oh, so it's sea travel that requires all the paperwork then?

There really is no tactful way to tell you that you're an idiot.; 5/13/10, 10:00 AM
Scott M said...: Cops haven't become any less bullies with the passing of time, but Americans have certainly become more compliant.

Wow. The amount of crap today is hip-deep. My inlaw's family is full of career cops from all over the country, crossing generations so its apt here. Cops did things, regularly, back then that cops today wouldn't dream of doing in the very literal sense that such brutality wouldn't even occur to them. Because they're better people? No. Because training drills it into them.

I agree with the original assertion that people 50 years ago would certainly get their ire up about having to carry ID. The same way they would get their ire up about seat belts, child safety seats, eating in a restaurant next to a black person...

The world changes and we have to change with it. The only real change I see here is that the Fed has absolutely failed in it's responsibility to enforce the laws on the books. AZ, with surprising public support, is doing what they feel they need to do to avoid problems both immediate and eventual (see California).; 5/13/10, 10:01 AM
former law student said...: Please point to a law that targets Hispanics rather than applying to everyone within that law's jurisdiction.

We won't really know how the law is applied until the police start applying the law, will we?

If they start hassling Poles and Irish who have overstayed their tourist visas, then I would be content.; 5/13/10, 10:13 AM
Robert Cook said...: "First of all....they can't just randomly stop people for no good reason. The stopee, must be doing something that they can legally be detained or questioned about.

It isn't meant to catch people casually strolling through the mall or eating icecream. That is a liberal bald faced lie and evidently you fell for it."

Please.

Such unwarranted trust in the good intentions of the authorities would be touching if it were not simply stupid and unAmerican. The Constitution and particularly the Bill of Rights is based on the assumption that authorities cannot be trusted to act in good will or with self-restraint, and that they will, if not prohibited, expand and abuse any powers granted to them.

Isn't this what what the Teepers are yelling about? (Rhetorical question: of course not. They've been duped. They should be angry, as all citizens should be, but they are misled as to the source of most of the ills besetting our nation. It is not illegal immigrants or welfare cheats or people who were hoodwinked into taking mortgages to buy homes they could not afford; it is the corporatocracy and their lackeys in Washington who pass laws meant to further enrich the rich and to make serfs of the rest of us.)

Such widespread approval of this law requiring that we show identification if asked illustrates how many of us have already become willing serfs.; 5/13/10, 10:14 AM
former law student said...: I mean if you could provide some numbers of substantial illegal immigration by Asians and Africans crossing here from Mexico

Hoosier Daddy blithely tosses aside a justification used by border fence advocates. I'm not sure why.; 5/13/10, 10:16 AM
GMay said...: "Such widespread approval of this law requiring that we show identification if asked illustrates how many of us have already become willing serfs."

Such overwrought language, ignorance of existing law, and clear misunderstanding of the new law only shows that you're a slave to your own intellectual incompetence.; 5/13/10, 10:20 AM
former law student said...: the Fed has absolutely failed in it's responsibility to enforce the laws on the books.

Twenty-five million illegals have flocked here since Reagan gave their predecessors "amnesty." What has the effect of non-enforcement been?; 5/13/10, 10:20 AM
former law student said...: I would try to address GMay's arguments, if he would ever present one.; 5/13/10, 10:21 AM