November 24, 2009

"At a state dinner in 1996, low decolletage wasn't merely sexy or daring; it was a political trap for a president known to have a roving eye."

"Clinton was hosting a state dinner for Italian President Oscar Luigi Scalfaro. The voluptuous Italian actress Sophia Loren was a guest and she arrived with her magnificent cleavage framed in an ivory evening gown by Giorgio Armani. As she made her way through the receiving line, media observers paid close attention to Clinton's gaze, waiting to see whether it would waver -- even the slightest -- from where it belonged to where it was most emphatically being drawn. Reports indicated that Clinton maintained steely eye contact. But no guest should really put the leader of the free world to such a test of willpower."

So putting her breasts right under President Clinton's eyes was, in Robin Givhan's opinion, a deliberate political trap.

It was so out there when Loren did it. (Photo at the link.) Is it okay to talk about it? Is it okay to talk about the other women who have followed in Loren's bra cups footsteps? Thanks to Robin Givhan for giving me new confidence in straight talk about breasts and politics.

146 comments:

Ryan said...

Bad link...i

David said...

They watched his eyes, but what were his hands doing.

John Lynch said...

404-- Yeah. Many disappointed male readers until it's fixed.

David said...

404 is Sophia's cup size--in centimeters.

EDH said...

I'm sure Sophia would understand the urge, anyway.

Big Mike said...

404 error. And only a promise to see Sophia Loren's decolletage could otherwise persuade me to click on a Rovin Givhan opinion.

Mr. Tea said...

Let's try to put together an Obama list that equates as well as possible with Sullivan's Palin list.

How's that list-that-you-will-never-actually-produce coming, Althouse?

Apparently you have plenty of time for everything except keeping your word.

Ann Althouse said...

Sorry. Link fixed. Ha ha. You *really* wanted to see that picture, didn't you? Feast your eyes now. I guess Loren's breasts have the power to knock out Blogger.

Chase said...

Sophia's son Carlo Ponti Jr is a conductor out her in Southern CA. She was in the audience, and very approachable, at one of her son's concerts that my wife and I attended. We, like many of the audience, said hello and shook her hand, and made half a minute of small talk about how proud she must be, during which she graciously made and kept eye contact with each person she directly talked with. Her dress was not "low-cut", it did show the beginning of cleavage and was fit beautifully around her famous bosom.

My wife is large breasted (she's absolutely gorgeous, frankly)and has had to put up with conversations with her chest for many years. And so I've learned to place my gaze where it belongs when talking with someone of the opposite sex. Or so I thought.

On the way home, I commented that my wife should be proud that I looked her in the eye as she and I conversed for a minute. My wife responded that yes, but that was the only time I looked at her eyes while we were waiting to talk with her.

Oh well.

jeff said...

Ok, now I can see a reason for a bow.

So Mr Tea. Who's sock puppet are you? I plan on eating turkey on thanksgiving, but I have yet to do so. I must be a LIAR!!!

Kensington said...

She's extraordinary. How many women manage to still be hot into their 70s?

It's simply unheard of, yet there she is.

Dogwood said...

Sophia can wear that dress to my house any day of the week. Hell, I'll even paint the place white if I have to.

John said...

If Clinton had banged Sofia Loren in the oval office rather than some insecure 20 year old intern, he would have been okay. When people complained about it, Clinton could have said, "it was Sofia Freeken Loren" and even his harshes critics couldn't have said a word because they all would have done the same thing given the opportunity.

edutcher said...

As to the "political trap" angle, one solution would be to have an adult elected to the Presidency (notice how the last two Demos have been called Boy Presidents?).

OT: I worked with a guy who knew Sophia as a girl in Bella Napoli. The kids in the neighborhood called her, Toothpick, she was so skinny.

Time, obviously, marches on.

Chase said...

My wife is large breasted (she's absolutely gorgeous, frankly)and has had to put up with conversations with her chest for many years. And so I've learned to place my gaze where it belongs when talking with someone of the opposite sex. Or so I thought.

We have had the same experience. Anyone who thinks my wife will sit still for unrestricted ogling is brought up very short.

WV "reifykxc" What comes out of most men's mouths when, seeing a woman like Sophia Loren, and trying to sound like David Niven, upon attempting to strike up a conversation, .

Kensington said...

Sophie Loren would have clocked that SOB if he so much as intimated a desire to drop trou with her. That woman has class, and he was (and is still) a pig.

traditionalguy said...

It's a good thing that Sophia is not a Republican Rogue Candidate. Otherwise she would be called a mere trashy doofus in it only for the money.

kent said...

How's that list-that-you-will-never-actually-produce coming, Althouse?

Oh, look. He's actually managed to train one of the beagles to type.

Kensington said...

I fear for those beagles.

John Lynch said...

Obama just doesn't have Clinton's personal failings.

It's amazing, looking back over almost a decade of war and depression, that we almost impeached a president for...

Kensington said...

...committing perjury and obstructing justice?

That's as fine a reason for impeaching a corrupt president now as it was then.

kent said...

Obama just doesn't have Clinton's personal failings.

"Mmmmmm, mmmmmm, mmmmmm."

John Lynch said...

I used to be a big Clinton hater.

I was wrong. What happened was almost a constitutional crisis. We were seeing an attempted coup by the legislative branch. That did huge damage, and I'm actually thankful that the Democratic Congress didn't reciprocate against W. The American people were right in not supporting the impeachment, by a majority.

And after seeing the hate directed at Bush 43, I saw the reflection of the Clinton hate in the 90s. Which I was part of.

So, I changed my mind.

Kensington said...

Hating a man, any man, irrationally is never a good idea, but there's no virtue in turning a blind eye to the crimes of Bill Clinton. He was corrupt on a very personal, very sleazy level, and what he and Monica Lewinsky did to Kathleen Willey (and what they tried to do but failed to accomplish) was contemptible.

There was no constitutional crisis; the constitution worked fine, except, in my opinion, for the unfortunate fact that the Senate was too cowardly to do what the law, and the evidence, required.

Henry said...

Though I wasn't much of a Clinton hater, I'm otherwise in agreement with everyone named John on this thread.

victoria said...

Seriously, in the midst of a serious discussion about breasts and the media you all are chastising Ann about not keeping her promises about some other posting? Please, Mr Tea, grow a pair. This is serious business, Sophia, who will be in the movie "Nine" looks as lovely and cleavagey (my word) as ever, even in her late '70's We should all aspire to look so classy and be so classy. She is a lovely, gracious woman, a credit to her and her Italian heritage. Go italians!!!!



Vicki (a proud italian-american) from Pasadena ca

I only wish i had her class. Mom did, must skip a generation.

William said...

In the way that the pen is mightier than the sword, the breast is a stronger phallic symbol than the phallus.

Kensington said...

It's never too late to nurture class. :-)

Henry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

If unseen Boobs count, then all women make me lustful. The key is showing just the right glimpse to start the engine in the minds of men which autofills the image. Protecting boobs from gawkers while not hiding them is the challenge of good fashion. Which reminds me of a good article today on The Wilding of Sarah Palin written by Robin of Berkeley.

Chip Ahoy said...

Décolletage. Ha ha ha. That's a funny word.
Décolletage.
Décolletage.
Décolletage, décolleté. I can't help it -- my mouth says these words with French phonemes. I will now work these words into everyday speech and my mouth will switch to French to say them and slow down for emphasis to keep them funny. And then straight through old age and into the nursing home it will not be possible to say these words other than if they were meant to be funny. And all the other old people there will think, "you loon."

Elliott A said...

What would have been wrong for the President to take a good look (she clearly was interested in showing them off) and then complimenting her on her enduring beauty? Who could possibly fault any guy for taking in the scenery.

JAL said...

Lousy choices.

A wise mentor told me that very often we are not pressed to make a decide between a good and a bad choice. It is more often a choice between two lousy options.

Clinton was a presidential prevaricator (and still is, charming [?] though he may be).

An impeachment (he LIED under oath to protect his penis, for cryin' out loud) carried out would have given us ____.

President Al Gaia-Gore.

See? God and the US Senate move n myterious ways.

wv unessurs
UN masseurs or some form of international prehistoric reptile

David said...

I realize the President can't do it this way at a state dinner, but as a mere mortal I have always taken a different tack when meeting a woman who is conspicuously displaying her assets.

I think the proper response is to take a frank look. Not a leering or insinuating look, but a brief recognizable glance of appreciation. Then compliment her on her looks. In a general way of course--not "fabulous jugs." More like "You look very beautiful tonight. I hope we will have a chance to talk before the evening is over." (She has a brain too, remember.)

The woman has taken time and effort to make her beauty available to you. She does not dress like this or even look like this all the time. She deserves an acknowledgement of her effort and generosity.

Kensington said...

I seem to recall what I think was an Oscar telecast where Tom Hanks was supposed to introduce Ms. Loren, and he spontaneously (allegedly) dropped to his knees before her. I hoped it was on Youtube, but I cannot find it.

***

But one more thing about Clinton. It's not just that he told a lie about his penis, remember that he and Lewinsky also basically tried to blackmail Kathleen Willey into committing perjury herself, putting her in an impossible situation. His corruption didn't take place in a vacuum, and it adversely affected innocent people around him.

No, I never wanted Al Gore to be president, but Clinton deserved his impeachment.

kent said...

Then compliment her on her looks. In a general way of course

"I just wanted to say, Ms. Loren: real AND spectacular." ;)

John Lynch said...

Oddly enough, if Clinton had been impeached we very likely would have had Al Gore until at least 2004... and would very likely have a Republican now.

Who knows? It's like I tell my Democratic friend- "If Kerry had won, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. Wouldn't you rather have Obama?"

The American electorate works things out pretty well.

ricpic said...

Good little foot soldier of the Left that she is, Robin Givhan's adulation of rapist Bill has never wavered.

Michael said...

I miss the old days, when JFK would have boffed her right there at the table. And Claudia Cardinale at the same time. And no one in the press would have covered it.

You want to know what politics doesn't attract the same caliber of people, it's right there. I can believe Bush and Laura got frisky once in a while, but as officially good-looking as they are, the Obamas give off all the raw animal heat of hood ornaments.

Seneca the Younger said...

And if Clinton had fallen for it, his Presidency would have gone tits up.

Seneca the Younger said...

In any case, Sophia Loren in a plunging neckline is hardly suspicious.

Sophia Loren not in a plunging neckline would be suspicious.

John Stodder said...

Sgt. Pepper was very lucky to have such a gorgeous dinner date.

wv: Blobo. No, I can't do it. It's too easy!

Shanna said...

And after seeing the hate directed at Bush 43, I saw the reflection of the Clinton hate in the 90s.

I definitely agree with this. I wasn’t a fan, and I had a different view of Clinton probably since I am from Arkansas (and then moved to DC during his term), so basically the guy was around all my life. I was mostly just sick of him, and when people asked if the rumor were true about women I was just like “yep! Most likely.”

Still, I have come to think impeachment was going too far and that people should have chilled about the more lurid accusations.
Of course, the Bush hatred topped it, I think. People thought Clinton was running around with multiple women (true) and might have been responsible for one guys death (probably not so true). People thought Bush ran a massive conspiracy to kill 3000 Americans. That got substantially more crazy. We need to break the cycle of crazy as a country.

chuck b. said...

Ah, the Clinton impeachment. All I can remember about it now is Chief Justice Rehnquist's robe with the ridiculous gold stripes. What a joke.


And where is that famous blue Gap dress now, I wonder.

JohnAnnArbor said...

Actually, the Brit Hume show, in '98 or '99, cut together two White House events with Sophia Loren going by Bill. This must have been one of them: eyes level. Then, a year or two later, at another event, Bill's eyes did glance down.

vbspurs said...

Soooo.

Are we to infer that Clinton was a tatas-man, whereas Obama seems to be a rump one?

Personally, I like guys who prefer looking at a woman's boobs. Breasts are what differentiates man from woman, after all. Cultures were men like behinds are suspect, such as Latin countries like France, Italy, Spain, Brazil, etc.

Cheers,
Victoria

vbspurs said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
vbspurs said...

And where is that famous blue Gap dress now, I wonder.

Lost alongside Jackie Kennedy's hot pink Chanel dress, I shouldn't wonder. Or maybe they're both being stored by curators for the soon-to-be-launched Washington DC Museum of Nationally Historic Stains.

Cheers,
Victoria

ricpic said...

If Bill Clinton banged Sophia Loren...

One enters cathedral Loren reverently, leaves a contribution and slips out silently. Bang her. Sacrilege.

The Drill SGT said...

Tough work for some Air Force Captain ")

Big Mike said...

Thanks for fixing the link -- the expression on the face of Miss Loren's escort is priceless.

Leave it to Robin Givhan to recast a probably innocent choice of guest on the part of a head of state as a trap for a Democrat president.

As for those of you in the discussion just above concerning the lamentable President Clinton, I'd really like to understand precisely what your position is. Is it your position that perjury should not be a felony (though one might note that misdemeanors are specifically included as impeachable offenses in the Constitution)? Or do you believe that the President of the United States should be allowed to be above the law? Or is it just that there ought, in your minds, to be two tiers of law in the United States: one for Democrat politicians that gives them a pass on perjury, cheating on taxes (e.g., Geithner, Rangel, Dodd), theft and destruction of classified documents, and bribery, and another law for the rest of us?

FWIW I never hated Bill Clinton. In large part I disliked his policies and if never hear the phrase "I feel your pain" again that will still be too soon. But hate a person???

For that reason I view the liberals who dumped raw hatred on the head of George W. Bush with a level of contempt that they probably lack enough functioning brain cells to comprehend. But even now, hate them? Feeling contempt for them is a very different emotion.

Chase said...

Breasts are what differentiates man from woman, after all.

That's the differentiation in the north. Now, look away down south in the . . .

veni vidi vici said...

titties. yum!

ricpic said...

It's strange that Germany, with all its magnificently endowed frauleins, was hot to trot to invade flat chested France.

elHombre said...

How's that list-that-you-will-never-actually-produce coming, Althouse?

Producing a list that "equates with" Sullivan's requires reading Sullivan.

Why would anybody want to do that? More particularly, why would anybody want to do that when the alternative is looking at/posting about Sophia Loren's breasts?

Not that we would expect Sullivan or someone calling himself "Mr. Tea" to share those sentiments, but a little empathy would be nice.

MarkW said...

Reminds me of the Onion headline:

"Area Woman Tired of Men Staring At Her Breast Implants"

Look -- women obviously spend a lot of time, effort (and money) figuring out how to best display their breasts. Implants, push-up bras, low-cut necklines, skin-tight sweaters, yadda, yadda. Getting offended when people look is just stupid and, well, kind of rude, to be honest.

Did I look at your tits? I dunno -- maybe. But since getting other people to notice is obviously the ONLY possible reason for displaying all that cleavage, so what?

vbspurs said...

FWIW I never hated Bill Clinton. In large part I disliked his policies and if never hear the phrase "I feel your pain" again that will still be too soon. But hate a person???

Ditto, Big Mike. In fact, I can't even rouse up any hate-filled feelings towards Carter. Or Obama. Neither for Mondale, Dukakis, Gore or Kerry (although I come closest with Gore because of his fraudulent pushing of Climate Change).

Contempt for their policies, yes. Derision, sure. But hate? When you hate, it says more about you than about them.

Cheers,
Victoria

JAL said...

Well let's face it. Sophia Loren is one classy lady.

No wardrobe malfunctions for her! (Take *that* Janet!)

Which brings me the question: Do you think she had the dress taped over the edge of her nipples?

Just askin'.

wv sticti
Yes. Really.

John Lynch said...

Big Mike-

It seems to me that the standard for impeaching President Clinton would have been low enough to impeach every succeeding president. Bush never lied to investigators? I think he did. Obama will if he hasn't already. A lot of that is just the normal power struggle between branches.

We have a trend of federal investigators not being able to get a public official for an actual crime, so they charge them with lying to investigators. Scooter Libby is a good example, and there's plenty more from both parties.

Most Americans concluded that if getting blown wasn't a crime, then lying about it wasn't much of a crime either. I understand the larger issue that no one should be above the law, but this wasn't much of a law. And we've seen the fallout from that prosecutorial approach all over the government and even for private citizens like Martha Stewart.

What I've learned is don't talk to the feds, ever, without a lawyer present.

vbspurs said...

MarkW wrote:

Getting offended when people look is just stupid and, well, kind of rude, to be honest.

I think I speak for many women when I say that no matter how short my mini-skirt is, I really am not keen on getting leering, drooling glances from aroused males.

I think it has something to do with wanting to be admired for one's looks, but not considered a piece of meat. Many men don't seem to be able to make that distinction.

Our attitude goes a long way to explaining why we take offence at wolf-whistles, when in reality, we should feel flattered.

Let me give a piece of advice to the male Althousians. When you compliment a woman, NEVER be specific.

"You look awesome" from a random man on the street makes us super-proud. "You've got a great ass", on the other hand, will get you a hard stare or a slap.

AGAIN. NEVER BE SPECIFIC.

Cheers,
Victoria

JohnAnnArbor said...

Most Americans concluded that if getting blown wasn't a crime, then lying about it wasn't much of a crime either. I understand the larger issue that no one should be above the law, but this wasn't much of a law.

If true, that basically throws out all sworn testimony in sexual harassment cases as "optional."

pm317 said...

John Lynch, congratulations!! And to the rest of the Bush clan bashing Clinton, how is that surplus looking to you now? Do you even have a job?

Paddy O. said...

When you compliment a woman, NEVER be specific.

Eyes are exceptions to this.

Smiles also, if said in a genuine "there's more to you" way, rather than a "trying to find something nice to say even though you're not attractive" sort of way.

I think hair is okay as well, but I think a man complimenting/noticing hair is so rare as to not really necessitate being mentioned.

wv: kingshy.

Restrained in the particular way that only a man with absolute confidence in himself can pull off.

JAL said...

It's strange that Germany, with all its magnificently endowed frauleins, was hot to trot to invade flat chested France.

You too old to remember Bardot? Like the 50s Bardot?

Aberration, perhaps.

(And Sophia definitely has aged better, with or without knife and botox.)

Chase said...

The only form of breast presentation that baffles me is wearing a t-shirt with writing that is prominently over the bosoms (my wife prefers the term "ba-zooms"). If you don't want someone looking at your chest to even read what's on it, then don't wear it!

Sheesh! (from someone who received killer stares just being a reader.)


Well, SLOW reader, maybe . . .

Pogo said...

I myself, being both male and indescribably even horrifically average, need never be concerned about wolf whistles or comments about looking awesome causing me despair, much less any positive remarks about my ass or any other specifics.

Being male, and wholly subsidiary to the testosterone pulley-ropes on the eyebones, I try to follow the combined advice of:
1) Don't let that little frankfurter tell you what to do.
and
2) Lead us not into temptation.

Therefore, to not look at all disrespects Loren's awesome beauty, but the look must not be a leer, the small smile not salivating, the passing thought not an action demanded.

vbspurs said...

I think hair is okay as well, but I think a man complimenting/noticing hair is so rare as to not really necessitate being mentioned.

Very very rare, Paddy. Doesn't matter if it's from husbands, boyfriends or fathers. Hair, handbags and shoes are conversational ice-breakers between women. I would say, do as you said. Smile rather than leer. And no whispering. It makes guys look like creeps.

vbspurs said...

wv: astingle!!

And this one PECTI!!!

Chase said...

Speaking of admiration, does this have any meaning?

kentuckyliz said...

Robin Givhan is objectifying Sophia Loren and is therefore a misogynist.

She's probably jealous because she's not a raving beauty.

There was a lot of plastic surgery and industrial strength elastic involved...admire the effort.

Clinton didn't have a choice between two bad options...when Sophia Loren was before him, he was presented with two delightful options. The left one and the right one. And I don't mean left/right politically speaking. LOL

SteveR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SteveR said...

Well we know what Obama likes.

John Lynch said...

Being a man is to have the joy of being anonymous.

Women are always looked at, and being homely simply attracts attention for being homely.

Men can move through the world unnoticed if they wish. It's a great blessing.

vbspurs said...

Speaking of admiration, does this have any meaning?

The sad thing about that humourous clip is that _I_ wouldn't kiss those guys if you paid me in cold hard stripper cash. They're nasty. She looks awesome.

MadisonMan said...

NEVER BE SPECIFIC.

One of the women in this thread is looking really good today!

Chase said...

MM,

LOL!

John Lynch said...

Victoria is really cool in a non-specific way.

Shanna said...

Let me give a piece of advice to the male Althousians. When you compliment a woman, NEVER be specific.

It’s best not to stare at someone’s breasts and say “Nice Sweater”.

One of the women in this thread is looking really good today!

Heh.

vbspurs said...

Good one, MadMan! What makes it great is that every single woman here thinks you're referring to her. ;)

vbspurs said...

Semi-OT: An "American Thinker" writer called Robin of Berkeley writes a great piece on "The Wilding of Sarah Palin". Since it's about sexism, it warrrants a semi-OT label. :)

AC245 said...

Still no dispute over Mr. Tea/Joey B./Floydster's expertise on predictable and boring.

Kirk Parker said...

JAL,

"President Al Gaia-Gore."

Except I don't think Gore was actually suffering from his sad dementia yet. As far as I can recollect, he was still Mr. Albert "he's a terrorist--go grab his ass" Gore.

Victoria,

"Cultures were men like behinds are suspect, such as Latin countries like France, Italy, Spain, Brazil, etc."

Now that's funny.



Oh, wait--were you serious? Well, maybe you do have a point, at well. :-)

MarkW said...

I think I speak for many women when I say that no matter how short my mini-skirt is, I really am not keen on getting leering, drooling glances from aroused males.

And I think I speak for many men when I say that no matter how short you mini skirt is or how close your girls are to falling out, you don't therefore get to impose rules on the men around you "Look! No don't look! Admire me! But only in the way I want to be admired!"

Maybe if I were single, I'd have to play those games, but I've been happily married for a long time. If women want to walk around showing a lot of flesh, OK, that's fine with me, but sorry -- I'll be damned if I'm going to spend any time worrying about following particular rules for interacting with them and their cleavage.

miller said...

Oh good heavens. Not to bring up the 90s again (that's so 90s!), but Clinton lied under oath.

I can imagine the brouhaha over lying to investigators -- that's certainly bad when an (R) does it, so it must be bad when a (D) does it -- but the key was "under oath."

I am probably fogged by the mists of time and weak memory, but as I recall he could have simply told the truth, been embarrassed for a few days, and moved on.

Instead he put the American government and people through a ridiculous circus of "that depends upon the meaning of 'is'" and the like.

What was so difficult about simply telling the truth about this?

Was he afraid Hillary might find out? I think by that time she knew.

John Lynch said...

No question, at all, that Clinton made his own mess. He had enemies but his own actions caused his problems.

AlphaLiberal said...

Uh, that's Sophia Loren. Sophia.

And, I happen to have developed some expertise in cleavage. I can tell you that a high neck sweater, such as that poor young woman you attacked wore, is a world apart from Sophia's bursting cleavage.

DADvocate said...

...from where it belonged to where it was most emphatically being drawn.

When a woman wears a revealing dress with a plunging neckline, is she not asking others to notice? Where does she want a man's gaze to go? Staring is considered rude but staring as any part of a person is usually considered rude. It would be considered rude to stare a person in the eyes.

Condemning a man (or women) for simply looking is idiotic.

With this kind of logic/crap going on, no wonder wearing burkhas is the rule in some places.

Beaverdam said...

I met and danced with Ms Loren in Madrid in 1971. Slow dance. Just one. It solidified my breast obsession.

paul a'barge said...

Waiting for comments from Feministings breasts in 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... any time now.

Beaverdam said...

Telly Savalas was in the club, also. I had no desire to dance with him.

Big Mike said...

@John Lynch, no, Hillary made the mess. She knew her husband was addicted to oral sex and she could have ...

Never mind.

Fred4Pres said...

It is okay to look (provided you do not make it obvious).

pm317 said...

Hey Miller, a philandering president who creates jobs and wealth or a war-mongering president who creates death and destruction or now a weakling president who gets screwed by most everybody and everybody gets screwed because of him..take your pick.. do you still have your job?

vbspurs said...

It is okay to look (provided you do not make it obvious).

Oh really, Fred?

(That's one of the BEST photos, ever)

vbspurs said...

Beaverdam, wow! My mother too met Sophia. She's as amazing personally as you might think. A lot quieter, though. Of Neapolitan wharf rat or international glamourpuss airs, she has little in person. Maybe you can corrobate.

Cheers,
Victoria

miller said...

PM whatever -

You miss my point. Are you a Harrovian or Yalie?

The point is not whether President A or President B is worse.

The point is, what did President C actually do, and for what was he actually accused of doing (impeached)?

I really could not care less to argue that A, B, or C was worse or better.

Feel free to carry on without me.

vbspurs said...

If women want to walk around showing a lot of flesh, OK, that's fine with me, but sorry -- I'll be damned if I'm going to spend any time worrying about following particular rules for interacting with them and their cleavage.

Nono. Mark you can behave as horndog as you want (well, not you seeing as how you are married). What I'm trying to say is that women are very good at "consequences".

If you're willing to deal with them, you can do whatever you want.

Cheers,
Victoria

vbspurs said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
elHombre said...

Miller wrote: Oh good heavens. Not to bring up the 90s again (that's so 90s!), but Clinton lied under oath.... [H]e put the American government and people through a ridiculous circus of "that depends upon the meaning of 'is'" and the like.

This was a pivotal moment for the Dems and the left. They finally acknowledged that morality and good character are irrelevant so long as a politician toes the ideological line.

It's why I stopped being a Democrat and why we have a bag man for the Chicago machine in the White House.

AJ Lynch said...

Clinton was the last Dem I voted for too. But that vote was cast in 1992 and the Dems losing my support had nothing to do with Lewinsky.

Fred4Pres said...

vbspurs, that is a super great photo. And yes I did look.

Thank you.

But I will say this, that look in the photograph is definitely not the look Bill Clinton or I would have made under the circumstances (even if we all would have been trying to guess when the nipples were going to pop out of that bust line).

Rather that photograph look conveys clear disapproval on poor dress selection and performance.

garage mahal said...

[H]e put the American government and people through a ridiculous circus of "that depends upon the meaning of 'is'" and the like..

I'm pretty sure Clinton wouldn't have called a press conference to announce he received a blow job, called for a multi million dollar multi year investigation, and tied up his staff to produce millions of documents by himself, do you? But, yo Republicans, Clinton had a WMD in his pants, and it was critically important to find out just how and where this blow job that rocked the world happened. Right down to where his semen landed, and what color dress it landed on.

pm317 said...

Yeah, causing deaths and destruction through your policies is way more desirable/honorable than lying about sex. Yep, lying about sex.(Look at people on this thread salivating over ..oops sorry, admiring Loren's breasts, er..objects of beauty) The idiots who hounded Clinton on silly things like sex are the problem. But people even after 20/20 hindsight and history who use the same old 90s arguments are even more idiotic.

miller said...

Why even bother speaking to children.

I could not care less what happened. I am simply trying to point out that the fact of his lying under oath (the offense) is the part that is impeachable.

Please - keep shouting "Squirrel!" to avoid this.

Whether you think him better or worse than other Presidents isn't the point.

Whether you think it was right or wrong to pursue the charges is irrelevant to what actually happened: he lied under oath, and he was impeached for that.

Now, go back to shouting "Squirrel!"

JAL said...

@ Kirk Parker
JAL,

"President Al Gaia-Gore."

Except I don't think Gore was actually suffering from his sad dementia yet. As far as I can recollect, he was still Mr. Albert "he's a terrorist--go grab his ass" Gore.


Ha ha.

Published in 1992 by Senator Al Gore: "Earth in the Balance"

"We must make the rescue of the environment the central organizing principle for civilization."


Gore's God by Mark Tooley


But in his quest for religious union with science, Gore strays into territory foreign to traditional Christians. He summons up teachings from Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, and Bahai texts, along with Native American prayers to the "Great Spirit." More bizarrely, Gore waxes nostalgic about a "single earth goddess" who benevolently reigned in the hearts of prehistoric humans.

More environmentally sensitive than today's religionists, this divine Earth Mother was swept aside by "distinctly masculine" religion, Gore laments. The last trace of goddess worship was "eliminated" by Christianity in the fifteenth century. He happily notes that Gaia, the ancient Greek earth deity, has revived in the form of a "hypothesis" that portrays the planet as a single, self-regulating superorganism.

The Gaia theory has "evoked a spiritual response in many of those who hear it," Gore opines approvingly. "It cannot be accidental that the percentage of salt in our blood streams is roughly the same as the percentage of salt in the oceans of the world," he notes as he praises the "complex interrelationship of all living and nonliving things."

Gore wonders, "Why do our children believe that the Kingdom of God is up, somewhere in the ethereal reaches of space, far removed from this planet. . . . It is my own belief that the image of God can be seen in every corner of creation, even in us, but only faintly." He enthuses further, "by experiencing nature in its fullest - our own and that of all creation - with our senses and with our spiritual imagination, we can glimpse, ‘bright shining as the sun,' an infinite image of God."


Gore has been over the top (his zinc mine notwithstanding) for a long time. His religious syncretism has been on the radar for a long time. Environmentalism is a religion first, not a science, for many of the activists. (Not to mention how much $$ he makes / will make.)

AllenS said...

When you're married to Hillary, all women look good. You want out, out, out.

MarkW said...

Nono. Mark you can behave as horndog as you want (well, not you seeing as how you are married). What I'm trying to say is that women are very good at "consequences".

If you're willing to deal with them, you can do whatever you want.

First, you misunderstand me. I don't have any desire to act like a horndog (no whistles, no suggestive comments). But a lot of women who show up in revealing clothing then expect men to 'watch where they put their eyes' -- to be careful in a way that they (the women) would never expect when wearing a sweatshirt and jeans.

My response is, "Sorry, no". My eyes may wander past your boobs. Human brains being wired the way they are, my eyes may be more likely to wander past your boobs when they're prominently displayed. Shrug.

Think of exposed flesh as an externality. If it's not accompanied by annoying social expectations, it's a positive externality. But otherwise not so much.

Bissage said...

DUCT TAPE!!1!!!!!!1!!!!!!

Pogo said...

MarkW,
Fen, the erstwhile commenter in years past at Althouse, once noted that when a scantily clad woman chided him for staring he would just say "Hey, thanks for the free show."

Immodesty of dress doesn't require men to don visual burkas.

JAL said...

@ pm317
a war-mongering president who creates death and destruction

Believe it or not, many Iraqis are heavily invested in making Iraq work and are happy to be doing so right now.

My son is there working with some of them. And they are happy to have him. He says they are the heroes.

But you don't really care.

Would ruin your narrative. It won't be long, and nobody will know what you are talking about.

Penny said...

"And no whispering. It makes guys look like creeps."

Whispering makes women look pretty silly too. Even though they are usually whispering about different things than the guys are.

Or are they?

Bungalow Bill said...

Political trap? Are you kidding? Is this a free country that allows women to not cover themselves up like Middle Eastern countries. Did you expect her to show up in a burka?

Fred4Pres said...

Pollitical Trap? And the sublime delight of the risk of being caught!

pm317 said...

JAL, that is my current assessment of Bush and if in 10 years or whenever Iraq turns out to be a better country because of Bush than it would ever have been, I will give him props. I will never say that the war of choice on a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and lying about it was a good policy decision. Clinton bashers may repeat that he lied under oath about sex until they are blue but I would feel a bit better if they gave him some credit for what he did do well compared to the two nincompoops we have had following him.

miller said...

I will give credit to Clinton for these:

He ended the welfare mentality of government

He signed the balanced budgets offered by the Republicans

He proclaimed the end of big government

So, props to him (and I didn't have to call anyone a nincompoop to do it).

miller said...

By the way, I don't have to "claim" he lied under oath.

Because it's not a claim. He did. And he was impeached for that.

That is a wonderful thing to add to his legacy: only impeached elected President, but the second impeached Democrat President.

HT said...

What's a "democrat president?" Sorta like a "republic president?"

JAL said...

For pm317

“What if Bush – the president, ours – has been right about [Iraq] all along? I feel like my world view will not sustain itself and I may – and, again, I don’t know if I can physically do this – implode.” Jon Stewart 2005

miller said...

Pretty simple, but I'll help you.

The Democrats nominated Clinton, who was a Democrat.
So he is a Democrat President.

The Republicans nominated Bush, who was a Republican. So he is a Republican President.

I wonder what they teach kids in schools these days.

Steve said...

The local movie theater is lined with photos of classic movie stars. My favorite, next to the ticket takers, features Marilyn Monroe, Lauren Bacall and Humphrey Bogart. In it Bogart is unabashedly staring down Monroe's low cut top while Monroe smiled and his wife pretended not to notice. The lesson? Real men aren't afraid to look and women know they're going to.

I'm sure Clinton looked too, he's just to old a hand to get caught at it in public.

victoria said...

No matter what all of you hates say, I am a proud Democrat!

The right spent all that time looking for something to pin on Clinton so they could punish him. Too bad we can't impeach former presidents like Bush for causing so much death and destruction in the name of his family's good name.

Yes, where is that surplus we left Bush?

Rather be the party of Obama than the party of Gingrich, Ralph Reed and Sarah Palin. Haters who use Christianity as a weapon.

Grrrrr

Vicki from Pasadena

vbspurs said...

Or are they?

You're a woman. You tell us.

Cheers,
Victoria

vbspurs said...

Immodesty of dress doesn't require men to don visual burkas.

Look! Look! But don't be disgusting about it. That's all we're saying.

(All bets are off during Mardi Gras)

JAL said...

Victoria 2

Please be specific instead of flipping off with ad hominems.

vbspurs said...

Whew, you made me nervous for a moment, JAL. ;)

vbspurs said...

Rather that photograph look conveys clear disapproval on poor dress selection and performance.

That is true, Fred, good point. When I look at another woman, it's usually to mentally critique her dress, as much as to remark on her figure, etc.

But never mind about that. You know what freaks me out? That Mariska Hargitay (sp?) from Law & Order is Jayne Mansfield's daughter. She looks nothing like her mum...including her tatas!

Cheers,
Victoria

pm317 said...

JAL, I won't implode because Bush will be never right about what he did -- if you think he was, then let us go, kill all dictators everywhere and build their nations. The oppressed people in those countries will be happy.

I will heave a sigh of relief when all the soldiers in Iraq do come home safely and the Iraqis govern themselves well without killing each other. Whatever happened to bringing them back home in 16 months? Is it still on schedule? Or is it going to go the way of Gitmo? We don't hear much on that.

pm317 said...

Whew, you made me nervous for a moment, JAL. ;)

We have a good Victoria and an evil Victoria.

victoria said...

I'm not evil, i may be your worst nightmare, but never evil. Evilness implies something dastardly, of which their is not a dastardly bone in my body.

Be careful when you characterize someone as evil. Shame.

Not evil Vicki from Pasadena

victoria said...

Or should pm be followed by s?

Hmmmmmm


Vicki(no more pms) from Pasadena

LonewackoDotCom said...

In case anyone wants to worry about the intersection between the BHO admin and those from whom most Americans get their information, here's a partial list of the attendees at tonight's dinner.

pm317 said...

Relax, that was tongue in cheek. You declared you were a Dem and the other Victoria says she is conservative and I was thinking aloud how the righties on this board look at you two.

JAL said...

Waiting for specific examples to substantiate your claim, Vic from Pasadena.

Fred4Pres said...

A fine fine photo vbspurs, thanks again.

JAL said...

Captions?

That nipple is not going to stay put one. more. ....

JAL said...

It's only 9:30 and all we have from Pasadena is crickets.

wv noinghom
I is noing [ad]hom when I see it.

vbspurs said...

Damn. I was hoping I was evil Victoria.

Cheers,
Potentially Evil Victoria

pm317 said...

vbspurs said...

Damn. I was hoping I was evil Victoria.


;) you seem like a lot of (evil) fun on this board.

Evil is not such an evil word. Really.

vbspurs said...

Yay! ...Evil Knievel was a hero of mine growing up.

kentuckyliz said...

Mariska Hargitay on L&O:SVU is a sex symbol for lesbians. According to the lesbians.

I just now learned that she was in the car during the crash that killed Jayne Mansfield! She was 3 years old at the time.

Clinton created jobs! Oh, that's precious. Thanks for the laugh.

I am wondering if Clinton's line is going to be resurrected:

"It's the economy, stupid."

Could come in handy.

Before a leftard goes on about 2% growth in last quarter's GDP, GDP is made up of CIG--three things--consumer spending (declining still), business investment (frozen), and government spending (multitrillions!!!!) Such a CIG strategy for GDP growth will not work in the long run without turning us into Zimbabwe.

vbspurs said...

KentuckyLiz wrote:

Mariska Hargitay on L&O:SVU is a sex symbol for lesbians. According to the lesbians.

They had to have someone after Lucy Lawless. ;)

I just now learned that she was in the car during the crash that killed Jayne Mansfield!

GASP. I did not know that!

Larvell said...

By contrast, George W. Bush could slap a bikini-clad girl on the ass in front of cameras, and everybody's thought was, "Boy, that's awkward for him."

Kirk Parker said...

JAL,

Oops, I had no idea Earth in the Balance was that early. Very well, I retract my statement.

Paddy O. said...

"I was hoping I was evil Victoria."

You can always tell the evil Victoria. She's the one with the goatee.

"all we have from Pasadena is crickets."

Crickets? All the occasional contributions I make to this comments section and I get called a cricket? Sheesh.

Paddy Pasadena

(I think this sounds too much like my porn name)

Paddy from Pasadena.

Peter said...

When I was a child my old man taught me the right comments both to and about women who, one could tell, had made an effort to look spectacular.

About those women: That's quite a production. To them: You look wonderful. You look ravishing was also allowed.

Speaking of breasts, how is it that the Party that claims to champion women is trying to go against a couple of decades of medical advances in the fight against breast cancer?

When will you women ever learn that "progressives" view all but themselves as objects?

Edward said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mavzoley said...

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