September 16, 2009

In the Late Afternoon Café...

DSC04007

... it's a somber pace, with a discreet flow of conversation. Dip in.

97 comments:

rhhardin said...

Frisbees become less definite, more elusive, in the evening.

BJM said...

Nice.

Level Desat or Hue/Saturation filter?

Roost on the Moon said...

How bout that Rush Limbaugh clip? Is he racist, or is he just cultivating and coddling an audience of racists?

David said...

So, is that stream entering the lake, or leaving it. Much depends on the answer to this question.

Hermione Granger said...

Honestly, that's not Harry snogging me in the bush!

chickenlittle said...

Is that the spring in the arboretum, where it enters Lake Wingra?

rhhardin said...

Rush is contrasting today's heated race consciousness with the healer that Obama billed himself as; contrasting it with amicable relations before the Obama took over.

It's almost as if it's Obama opposite day.

The goal would be to reconsider a blind spot, of you're an Obama believer.

Maguro said...

If Obama's going to take credit for the oceans receding, there's no reason he can't take the blame for back-on-white hate crime in Illinois.

Gotta take the bad with the good.

t-man said...

This picture is free of oaks, and therefore, acorns. Is that a political statement?

WV: forshrap: a tight celophane-like skin at the end of your johnson (removal of which is condemned by Andrew Sullivan)

Paddy O. said...

I've had Sigg bottles for about 3 years now, two 1.5L. Both are pretty dented up. Lots of being carried around and falling around and otherwise well-used. I certainly haven't been the most attentive to them, but that's sort of the point right?

Well, one had a really bad fall a month or so ago. Fell straight down, on its bottom, onto concrete. Pushed the bottom up a tad, and cracks formed. Was disappointed to find there's no 1.5L bottles sold these days, and hasn't been for a fair while (though I did just get a note from SIGG saying they still make them, the shipment is just stuck going through customs--no idea why that would be).

Anyway, I fixed the cracks with some silicone sealant, but now that bottle is pretty suspect as to its usefulness. And now my other one just can't seem to be cleaned. I tried the tablets, I've tried the scrubbing, but it just gets a pretty nasty smell if water is left in there for more than a little bit. I drink a lot of water, so those SIGGs were really important to me.

Went online just now to check if the 1.5L were in stock. They weren't. So peeked around a bit more. Found myself the Kleen Kanteen. I hate the name. But, they're made out of stainless steel rather than aluminum, so are a bit easier to work with. They didn't have a 1.5L, but they did have a 40 ounce version, which is about 1.2L. They also have one that's a little smaller than a 2L--and I'm thinking of getting it before I go island camping next.

Thanks for listening.

WV: pingl. The gentle tapping sound I plan on making on the empty stainless steel water bottle.

Joseph N. Welch said...

Fascinating, isn't it, how the proud claim that this blog promotes an "immoderate voice" has been removed.

I guess Althouse is shocked -- shocked! -- that her constant Obama-bashing has resulted in extreme and vile comments.

Of course, none of those are from actual Althouse commenters!

Original Mike said...

I believe you are right, chickenlittle. I've paddled up that more than once.

Fred4Pres said...

A somber picture but here is a lighter take of current events.

Jon Stewart redeems himself (at least a little) with his take on this story.

Rialby said...

Man, do I wish I was sitting on a branch looking at that view right now.

BJM said...

@David - an interesting question!

At first glance the perspective leads the eye to believe the water is flowing into the lake.

Is Althouse messin' with us again?

BJM said...

Is that you moby?

Pogo said...

Paddy O,
I posted this on the Kanye West thread too late, but based on your posts there I thought you might want to read:
An Irish History of Civilization, by Don Akenson. ("21 used from $5.45"!)

It's not a smarmy ain't-the-Irish-great tale. It's funny, learned, and wise. It casts blame on no one race or people, but shows Ireland warts and all by way of a Talmudic storyline.

It's two volumes, some 1500 pages total, so be sure to get both. It broke me of any romantic views of that emerald isle and taught me a whole hell of alot about the world.

edutcher said...

Joseph N. Welch said...
I guess Althouse is shocked -- shocked! -- that her constant Obama-bashing has resulted in extreme and vile comments.

Of course, none of those are from actual Althouse commenters!


Althouse runs a square house. Your problem, Joe, is that you hate the fact that she does.

Revenant said...

How bout that Rush Limbaugh clip? Is he racist, or is he just cultivating and coddling an audience of racists?

Or is he accurately observing that Obama is anti-white? Food for thought.

David said...

Ridiculous. Obama is not anti white.

But he is possibly a fool of the first order.

campy said...

Of course Obama isn't anti-white. Some of his best friends are white.

Christopher said...

"I guess Althouse is shocked -- shocked! -- that her constant Obama-bashing has resulted in extreme and vile comments."

You go, Joseph! Get that blog! Get it! Sic 'em, boy!

OldGrouchy Doug Wright said...

The picture is a foretelling of the decline of this once great country, now in the autumn of its history. However, there's hope, simply surrender all will to the elected one leader, who shall do as it is foretold he'll do!

There, I've said it. But, do I believe it?

Jason (the commenter) said...

It looks like winter, like it's covered in a thin layer of snow.

Paddy O. said...

Pogo, thanks for the suggestion. It's now on my Amazon list. I've got a whole lot of colonial American church history on my plate (Roger Williams, Anne Hutchinson, and those crazy Quakers) for the next bit, but I'm definitely going to get the Irish history books read before too long. Sadly, while I've had a bit of Irish history most of what I really know is pretty early, mostly in the late Roman era.

Where the Roman Church was not, in fact, the friend of the Irish. They had their own system, for the most part. My own bit of Irish heritage is Scot-Irish--on both sides of the family--Protestants it seems going pretty far back.

My own opinion is the English government was pretty nasty at times, but people are people--and people are sometimes good, sometimes evil, often lazy, and occasionally brilliant and ambitious. But, now I know my opinion needs a fair bit of sharpening. Thanks for the tools to help with that.

JAL said...

Thanks.

We need a break.

I'm drama-ed out.

Synova said...

Even black and white and... ooooo... maybe it *is* a statement after all.

Was going to say... pretty picture and some day I'm going to have a pond. Has anyone done a pond in their yard? Any advice?

Dan said...

It looks like there might be two egrets in the center of the shot...or they might be rocks and shadows. Adds to the mystery.

Revenant said...

Ridiculous. Obama is not anti white.

What's the evidence for that claim? He belonged to an anti-white church for decades, he supports anti-white policies, he has made racist comments about whites, and his justice department has dropped prosecution of clear cases of white voter intimidation by some of his black political supporters.

Is it possible that Obama is not anti-white? Sure, it is possible. But the balance of the evidence says that he is. Why would this be surprising? Anti-white attitudes are much more common in black Americans than anti-black attitudes are in white Americans.

edutcher said...

By the bye, Althouse, after your superb florals, are you channeling Matthew Brady? All that shot needs is some of Berdan's Sharpshooters or a couple of Sheridan's Scouts.

WV "deeexed" What happened when Althouse said, "Yes", to Meade

Pogo said...

" with a discreet flow of conversation. Dip in.

In geriatrics, that 'discreet flow' can be remedied by Ditropan and several surgical procedures.

Greg said...

>>In geriatrics, that 'discreet flow' can be remedied by Ditropan and several surgical procedures.

It all Depends.

Pogo said...

Ba-dum-bum

We'll be here all week.

Shanna said...

Sadly, while I've had a bit of Irish history most of what I really know is pretty early, mostly in the late Roman era.

The only irish history book I've read is "How the Irish saved Civilization" which was entertaining, but hardly comprehensive (or balanced, I think). May check out Pogo's suggestion. I'm a bit Irish myself (although a bit more scottish than irish).

Speaking of, finally going to Scotland and Ireland this year. I'm very much looking forward to it.

AllenS said...

Man, I can't help but notice how short the days are getting. Bummer.

I had two of those nasty asian beatles (ladybugs) in the house today. Double bummer.

peter hoh said...

Is the glass half empty or half full?

Is that a rising or a setting sun?

Flowing in or flowing out?

traditionalguy said...

The Sun is not as strong as the equinox is now coming upon us. The hibernating instinct seems to be overcoming the wife and I earlier this year. Will the cold air also engulf us one month early this year? Good books will be needed, along with good incandescent bulbs to read by, in our good Kingsdown Sleep to Live bed.

Lem said...

I want to take this opportunity to apologize to myself for lying to myself while I was alone with my thoughts.

I have escaped my own rebuke just in the nik of time.

rhhardin said...

Is Australia having last Spring or next Spring?

blake said...

Ah, this is much different in cooler states than those of us in the sunbelt.

Fall is a reprieve.

wv: prentess

That chippy who married Benjamen.

Penny said...

You know what's beautiful about Althouse's cafes?

Yeah, me either.

Penny said...

I'm KIDDING!

You know what's beautiful about Althouse's cafes?

Just coming in the door makes you feel a bit calmer than you were after the last post you participated in here.

Penny said...

Hi!

Everybody doing Ok?

Donna Juanita said...

Chris Althouse Cohen, this is for you:

http://www.youtube.com/realhouseboysofweho

Paddy O. said...

Lem, you selfist.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Is Australia having last Spring or next Spring?

They're having this spring.

knox said...

Getting together with my best friend from high school on Friday. Haven't seen her for at least 15 years. Can't wait!

Paddy O. said...

Shanna, Cahill writes a very popular, idealized kind of history. Not that he is wrong, I think he makes a good case.

More that he leaves out a lot of the extra bits that make history more tuned to real life.

In other news, I just woke up from a great 15 minute power nap. Love those! Ready to work the rest of the evening now.

Lem said...

An idea from left field.

Hillary Clinton is going to challenge Obama for the WH and Jimmy Carter is going to be her campaign manager.

Pogo said...

Oog, don't tell Ann, but Mary Travers of Peter, Paul and Mary just died, at 63.

tjl said...

Joseph N. Welch complains
Althouse is shocked -- shocked! -- that her constant Obama-bashing has resulted in extreme and vile comments

"Obama-bashing?" I guess Joseph N. Welch never once visited DailyKos during the entire Bush administration.
Lefties can dish it out but they can't take it.

chickenlittle said...

Pogo FYI, Wiki says she was 71.

Mary Travers: Loved your songs as a very small child-first memory stuff. RIP

Pogo said...

I had the Puff the Magic Dragon 45 when I was 7, and played it in seemngly continuous loop for ages.

One grey night it happened, Mary Travers came no more
And puff that mighty dragon, he ceased his fearless roar.

Sassy Black Woman said...

More Obama bashing? You all can kiss my black ass

Pogo said...

Wrong thread, Sassy.
But thanks for popping in!

rhhardin said...

The first Kingston Trio album was big in the next dorm room.

The sound means freedom from parents to me, mostly. Okay songs, nothing to take your breath away.

Joan Baez had a couple that did a couple of years later.

JAL said...

Husband heard an interview recently with Peter (or was it Paul?)

Mary could no longer peform with them, but when they did concerts as a duo, the audience would sing Mary's part.

Sweet.

wv = hersubcu
Woman's lower skin layer

Synova said...

Honestly... I'm enough of a nerd that I read "The first Klingon Trio" and didn't immediately figure I'd read it wrong.

Klingon Opera in the next dorm room didn't seem strange at all.

blake said...

The Kingston Trio was okay.

I've always been more of a Folksmen guy.

wv = serfv

Chip Ahoy said...

Needs hummingbirds.

Behold: the elusive and rare gigantic hummingstork.

New blogger is dreadful CSS. Doesn't display animated gifs. And that's just wrong. Also doesn't align photos properly. This creates a tension in my mind that is resolved only by doing my own coding. My other site has been "improved" too. Now music doesn't play on pages where it's essential to the idea. I must go back and rewrite all those pages and even then some browsers, like Safari, cannot display the embeds. This concludes my bitching for the evening.

Treacle said...

"One grey night it happened, Mary Travers came no more"

Shortly thereafter, Mr. Travers was no more. There. A smutty reference to Mary's passing. Why did you make me do it?

bagoh20 said...

PaddyO,

I have used the same Fiji water bottles for 3 years. They are just reaching the done stage. These are clear plastic (so you can avoid swallowing innocent insect lives), square for nice packing and use of space, strong and cheap. Available in 0.5L, 1.0L, and 1.5L sizes for a buck or two, including the fine water which approaches you with a seductive yet clean nose of ice while slyly escorting you into an self-deprecating palate of clean Hydrogen which lingers delicately like an icicle tenaciously clinging to a needle of pine in the San Gabriels in January. This eventually relents to a clean finish of Ozone and restored wetland mist. Well worth the journey.

edutcher said...

Pogo said...
Oog, don't tell Ann, but Mary Travers of Peter, Paul and Mary just died, at 63.

Sad to hear it. She was the best one of PP&M, far and away. Speaking of the Kingston Trio, she did a special with them about 25 years ago - she looked very heavy then, singing with the original Trio plus John Stewart. God, they sounded good together and Mary sounded better with them than she ever did with the two other guys.

The Trio was the most polished - and the most technically accomplished - in the folk field.
You could hear them get better from one album to the next - and they started out good.

I know it's fashionable to diss them in favor of the faux ethnics, but it was always a pleasure to hear them. PP&M, on the other hand, were just Left enough to be fashionable and not quite as good vocally.

Christopher said...

"The Kingston Trio was okay.

"I've always been more of a Folksmen guy."

I loved the Folksmen too. I just didn't like how I had to punch my own holes in their records so they wouldn't teeter crazily on the little spindle.

William said...

There seems to be a pervasive misunderstanding of who the Scots-Irish were. They were not Irish. They were Scottish. England wanted to populate Ireland with a Protestant population. Lowland Scots were given lands to cultivate in Northern Ireland....A fair number of them felt that the English treated them like second class citizens. (The Catholics went steerage.) They then moved on to America. They were thus a doubly displaced people. This dislocation helped them to become very patriotic Americans. They were the grunts of the Revolutionary and border Indian wars. Cotton Mather has a sermon or letter where in a there- goes- the- neighborhood tone he rails against their hard drinking and noisy ways.....These Scots-Irish are the ancestors of the current Irish Protestants. There, they like to think of themslves as British. The Scots-Irish in America were antagonistic to England. Andrew Jackson with all his flaws and glory is a fair example of the breed.....Senator Jim Webb wrote a book "Born Fighting" that celebrates the Sotch-Irish mystique. To my understanding, that's an oxymoron, but it's worth a try. Apparently in the hollows there's still a distinct Scotch Irish identity, but in my experience nowadays the S/I think of themselves as WASPs....I think the most totally assimilated white Americans are the Scotch Irish and the Germans. What with two world wars, the Germans were ixnay on the identity thing. The Scotch Irish were leaving a country where they were settlers and were thus eager to grab the opportunities here....Pogo, I saw your recommendation. It sounds interesting, but the 1500 pages are intimidating. It seems to me that one group of Irish writers are always spinning bright fables, and another group are pulling apart the weave and proclaiming lies, all lies. Think of the pendulum between Fitzgerald and O'Neill. The Iceman is lurking in the corner to murder the Great Gatsby. Sinead O'Connor with her bipolarity is the Irish soul made visible.

blake said...

If you punched a hole in them, you'd have a good time.

wv: bandlet

What's left of the Beatles?

William said...

There comes a point when most of the important people in your life are dead.

bagoh20 said...

Chip, That's truly terrifying. You could develop that into a movie on the sci-fi channel. Ann and Meade could be the reliably punished couple making out near the lake inevitably sucked to death by the hummingstork. All that would be found was a muddy digital camera with terrifying photos of the final moments. oooh scary!

bagoh20 said...

I love the Beatles. I forgot how much. I can't exactly explain why and that's the best kind of love to have for a work of art or an artist.

Beth said...

Peter, Paul and Mary - that's my childhood, with the Kingston Trio. I can see the albums in my mind's eye. I love my older brothers for having those albums, and not being mad at a little sister for sneaking in their room and playing them.

I got to see PP&M at the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival; it must be about 10 years ago, I guess. It was wonderful. The crowd was huge, and we sang along.

That came back to me a few months back, watching an Mad Men episode that ended with one character strumming and singing "Early in the Morning," and PP&M's gorgeous voices swooping in after a few measures.

Pogo said...

William, it's worth checking out a few of the vignettes on google books.

chickenlittle said...

William wrote: There comes a point when most of the important people in your life are dead.

Somebody just tweeted over on the Mary Travers twitter thread that it seems like a dying epidemic lately.
I think that person hit on something bigger: It's a morbid thought but I think that demographics alone dictate that we'll be hearing much more about deaths and dying celebrities than we ever did before-perhaps for the next 30 years or so.

Paddy O. said...

bagoh20, a tantalizing journey indeed. Thanks!

And a good suggestion.

kentuckyliz said...

I didn't read all the comments. I had fun at the Night Ranger Journey concert \tonight and Im toasted. Tuerns out I was partying with popl who klooked baguely familiar, and it turned out they were my radiation therapists during my cancer treatment a couple of years ago. How life affirming is that, that we dance together and I can't even place them. LOL

Don't stop believin'. Hold on to the feelin'.

I haven't been toasted like this in a long time. But at least I was conscious, unlike when I saw Journey in high school. My bff's foster sister ran off with a roadie and was missing for 2 weeks. TG for no drama. And I outpartied the young thangs and intimidated some jerks into backing off.

pardon the speelingg erros

i'm toasted
gnite

Pogo said...

" Tuerns out I was partying with popl who klooked baguely familiar"

Souns lik funn!!

Penny said...

Pogo, I am going to pick on you because you are last up in the cafe and most articulate elsewhere on Althouse.

All of a sudden spelling poorly and nearly incoherent, it seems.

Honey? Have a seat.

I have a story to tell you...

Beth said...

kentuckyliz,

I love your toasted posting, and celebrate your living it up. You've earned it.

Sir Archy said...
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Sir Archy said...
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Sir Archy said...
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Sir Archy said...
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Sir Archy said...

To Professor Althouse.

Dear Madam,

As short & smart as Performances ought to be at this, your Theatre of Topicks (as I call it), I pray you will not take it amiss if I, as the Ghost of a Gentleman, dead these 260 Years and more, philosophize a little upon two Subjects about which Ghosts may be said to know a little above the Ordinary:— Time, and, Medicine.

Few Things grow old so fast, or at least sink so swiftly into a mute & buried Past, as a Bottle of old Physick.  'Tis not just the faded Lables, with their cryptick Latin Abbreviations and obscure Measure, written in a Hand meant to at once impress and deceive; nay, 'tis the Operation of Memory, which hath speedily sunk both the Physick and our Need of it into Oblivion.  One might ascribe this quick Forgetfulness to an intrinsick Love of Health; an Urge so intense that it might be said to obliterate our Awareness of Illness, in the same Way the Dawn obliterates the Night.

But the real Reason, I fear, may be less noble: If Mankind really lov'd Health, yet hated Disease, they would study and remember their Distempers, not only for abundant practical Reasons, but because the Memory of Disease makes mere Health a luxurious Pleasure. 'Tis rather the Hatred of Pain that makes of Men such good Forgetters, who look fixedly away from past Suffering, as a Reminder that Death, of needs, treads close behind.  And, this Forgetfulness extends, beyond Disease, to other equally powerful & dangerous Sources of Pain; binding Humanity thus to their latent Survival, disarming them against ther recurrence, and condemning them to ignore destructively their tragick Potentialities.

This Fear & Forgetfulness may be said to inform, nay poison, so much of the present Debate in your Country whether or not the Government ought to provision Physick for its Citizens?  Fear of Suffering & Death makes every Argument to some Degree specious, for 'tis not Reason, but Dread that operates upon Minds.  At the same Moment, the Publick seems to have forgotten there was once a Time when Physick, perhaps less efficacious, was more readily to be had without the vast Bother & Expense of this Modern Age.  The Publick and honest Government Officials ought earnestly to inquire after the Reasons for this, and not worry themselves so much about Twelve Hundred Pages of Legal Jargon & Cant.  For, I may tell you honestly, Madam, that the Provision of Physick to its Citizens by a Government pretending to Liberality would not, in my Age, have inspir'd Gratitude, so much as Terrour.

You may see here Two Doctors arguing in my Day over which Pills to give the dying Harlot, not out of any Regard for the poor Creature, or any Expectation that either Cure would save her Life, but to see Who might collect Sixpence from her Maid; who, very sensibly desires them both to leave.  Does anyone in this Modern Age, not blinded by Fear or Passion, as I above aver, expect Doctors, and those who employ them, to behave any better, when the Charges are Milliards of Pounds, and not Fourpence and a Farthing?

Expecting only the Best of Behaviour from all those who frequent your Theatre of Topicks, I am,

Madam,

Your humble & obt. Servant,

Sir Archy

Joan said...

Sir Archy in the cafe! w00t!

I knew there was a reason for dawdling online so late this evening.

Sir Archy said...

To Professor Althouse.

Dear Madam,

Additionally to my last Letter, I should like to instance the Following, from the Post-Boy of June 10, 1723, if I recall aright, shewing that we, in my Age, were not wholly ignorant of Schemes to insure the Income of Doctors, if not the Health of Patients; which at least had the Advantage of not lining the Pockets of Government Officers:—


                                 ADVERTISEMENT.
                          For the Good of the Publick.

   Dr. Keyser, newly arrived from Leyden, who hath been for several
   Years a Practitioner of Physick of no little Regard at that famous
   City; where he was a Colleague of the most eminent Physicians
   at the Faculty of Medicine of the celebrated University, begs to
   inform the British Publick that he now accepts Patients at
   London, and practices Medicine in all its Branches; especially,
   Blistering, Purging, Cures for the Pox, Joint-Ache, Head-Ache,
   Stomach-Ache, and all common Maladies, &c., absolutely cured
   so as never to return again, after the most certain & approv'd
   Methods.

   Additionally, Mr. Loos, Chirurgeon, come from the same City,
   who hath previously been Chirurgeon to the Household of the
   State-Holder
of the Dutch Republick, says that he sets Bones;
   mends Joints; draws Teeth; performs several Operations for
   the Stone, or to remove Tumours, the Amputation of Limbs,
   &c., after the best, least painful & quickest Manner.
   He honestly maintains that fewer of his Patients have died,
   even after the most perilous Operations, than those of any
   other Chirurgeon he knows of in his Country; and he prays
   that he may now find Encouragement for his Skill amongst
   the British Publick.

   Dr. Keyser hath instituted a Scheme, whereby both he and
   Mr. Loos may be paid by the great:— All Patients who chuse to
   enter the Scheme should pay a Price of 4l.6s. per annum,
   and be supply'd with necessary Care & Physick for the Year,
   additional to any Chirurgical Operations, no further Charges
   to be made.

   Additionally, Dr. Keyser will administer Purges, Emeticks, &c.
   and Mr. Loos will blister or bleed Patients once a Month, gratis,
   as necessary to balance the Humours & maintain Health thereby.

   Enquiry may be made at Dr. Keyser's House, near Cruickshank's
   Printing-Office in the Strand; or, from Mr. Voorhies at Child's
   Coffee-House
in St. Paul's Churchyard.

   N.B.—Dr. Keyser will not countenance any Mopes, or Melancholy
   Persons with imaginary Maladies; nor will he accept any Patient
   into the Scheme known beforehand to have Need of an Operation,
   because of the Stone, Tumours, &c.


Praying earnestly that neither you, nor Mr. Meade should ever have Need of an Operation perform'd with any of the Methods in use by the above-mention'd Chirurgeon, I am,

Madam,

Your humble & obt. Servant,

Sir Archy

Deb said...

I loved the Kingston Trio growing up. In high school and college, I came to love PP&M, among others. I've come within hand-shaking proximity of Peter Yarrow twice. The first time he even kissed me on the cheek. Never met any of the Kingston Trio personally tho, although doesn't Bob Shane live in Atlanta? I was very sad with Nick died.

rhhardin said...

Imus decided it's okay to mock mockable black people again, apparently noticing both that he had hamstrung his show, and that avoiding it was itself racist.

McGuirk did another Mayor Nagin bit at 6:30 Eastern.

Not a great bit in the Nagin genre, but a sign of hope for listeners.

LarsPorsena said...

"A Mighty Wind" was on the Comedy Channel the other day. Their tribute to Travers...in a Christopher Guest kind of way.

Paddy O. said...

William, not confusion... but family history on my side of things. Scots are Irish, in a way. Scotti, at least, if I'm not mistaken were Irish who settled north of the Roman territory. There was a big interaction and moving back and forth. On my mother's side I am a McBride, which genealogy shows is a name that can have either Scottish or Irish roots, though it is of Irish origin. The family settled on the west of Scotland and the northeast of Ireland. And my roots were apparently in the Carolinas going back very, very far--maybe pre-Colonial.

So, while your historical point certainly is valid for a broad swath of some, it's not necessarily the history of all those who had ties to Scotland and Ireland--which had population movement between the two of them going back probably well before the Roman age.

I use the term for my family history not necessarily as the tight definition that points to a certain group of people, but mostly as a way of acknowledging family ties to both regions. That's imprecise, but on a blog like this, that's okay I think.

However my usage wanders a bit, and your points are still quite helpful and right.

knox said...

Over 400 on that last thread. Is that an Althouse record?

The Drill SGT said...

The White House will shelve Bush administration plans to build a missile-defense system in Poland and the Czech Republic, a move likely to cheer Moscow and roil the security debate in Europe.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell confirmed Thursday that a "major adjustment" is planned and said the decision was made to better protect U.S. forces and allies in Europe from Iranian missile attacks.


"we've always been at war with Eastasia, Winston"

Shanna said...

decision was made to better protect U.S. forces and allies in Europe from Iranian missile attacks.
Yeah, that makes sense.

Paddy, my ancestors are both scottish and irish, not merely scots/irish as well. Maybe they are all three, who knows? But I believe some of them popped over the North Carolina in 1776 or so so maybe they knew yours 

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Scots are Irish

When growing up, my mother repeatedly told me that her father was Scottish. This encouraged me, while visiting Edinburgh on business, to boast of my Scottish heritage to a group of locals while enjoying a pint or three at a pub late one night. In response, they wanted to know my mother's surname. When I responded "Sheridan", the smiles on their faces disappeared and they sternly informed me that Sheridan was Irish, not Scottish.

When I quizzed my mother about this her response was that her father was born in Ireland and then moved to Scotland when he was a young boy. This was just a technicality to her. My friends at the pub didn't quite see it that way.

William said...
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William said...

Your identity depends not so much on your genes but on which narrative you believe. The family of Wellington had lived in Ireland since the 12th century, but Wellington famously denied being Irish. On the other hand, Wolfe Tone, a member of the Anglo Irish ascendancy, is considered an Irish patriot. Anxiety about Irish identity is itself a function of Irish identity. It's all very confusing, but Irish identity is generally defined as unreflexive hostility to the English.....A similar thing seems to be going on within the black community. Clarence Thomas is considered less real, i.e. authentically black, than Henry Gates. This is so not because of his skin color or life experience, but because Thomas is insufficiently hostile to Republicans.....Bushman: I don't blame your mother for wishing to be Scottish. The Scots are the chosen Celts. They are to useful ideas what the French are to foolish ones. Nonetheless, your mother's wish to deny her Irish identity defines her as being irredeemably Irish.

Paddy O. said...

Well, no one likes the English, William. :-)

That's why Braveheart is always among the favorite movies of guys of my generation.

Personally, I pick and choose my narrative for what suits me. As a Patrick, I'm a wee bit beholden to the Irish. Patrick the saint, of course, didn't exactly have fond feelings for the Irish, what with being enslaved by them, but he understood his calling, and seemed to make an impact with it--even as those British Roman Church officials tried to bring him down.

Mostly, my narrative is American. I've got some family from Ireland a few generations ago, and a great-grandmother straight from England on my mom's side. But, mostly it's all American going pretty far back. McBrides traced back to the Carolinas (Hi Shanna!) and my Oden roots can be traced all the way back to Texas in the late 19th century where records seem to have failed--though the name suggests a Swedish origin from the distant past.

America only has so much history, though, and a person likes to feel like they've been wandering with the generations through all the important eras, so Irish and Scottish are more entertaining (and probably most culturally relevant).

Maybe I'm just a good postmodern, choosing the narrative that works best for me.

Though, that's a little unsettling, and I really like to hear people who know more, and can point to more, actual history of the peoples who wandered around until I joined in.

Peoples who mostly weren't as ideal as cultural history suggests, but who wants to dwell in the negatives?

William said...

The expression "beyond the pale" originally referred to those English who lived beyond the palisades of the English settlement in Dublin. Such Englishmen soon became Irishmen. A similar fate awaited those Englishmen who ferried across the mersey. We don't think of Lennon and McCartney as being Irish singers.... The whole ethnic identity thing is a bit of a scam, but I guess it serves a need. In America we're adrift in a sea of McDonald wrappers and look for some tradition to give dignity to our rags. We look to some point of embarkation to give us our bearings, to give us a sense that we're on a heroic journey. But the people we left behind are just as lost and confused as we are. We left an awful lot of baggage on the dock, and they're welcome to it......I looked into the book Pogo recommended. It seems more a collection of anecdotes than a history. I suppose at its most basic level our lives are just a collection of anecdotes united by our consciousness and our wish to to give a larger meaning to our particular collection of anecdotes. Religion, ethnic pride, happy marriage, brave struggle with final illness--it's a tale told by a poet full of beauty and meaning signifying nothing.

asthedeer said...

Beautiful photo... thanks, Ann.