March 18, 2009

More than twice as many 15-year-old German boys belong to neo-Nazi groups...

... than are active in mainstream politics.

IN THE COMMENTS: David said:
I wonder how American boys would stack up on this test? How many 15 year old boys are active in mainstream politics? Run the USA comparison based on street gangs vs. mainstream politics and we will look like Mad Max's utopia.
Amba said:
Yeah, since when were 15-year-old boys active in mainstream politics? They can't even vote yet, and there's no forbidden, secret-society fun in it. Stupid statistic.

45 comments:

David said...

I wonder how American boys would stack up on this test? How many 15 year old boys are active in mainstream politics? Run the USA comparison based on street gangs vs. mainstream politics and we will look like Mad Max's utopia.

traditionalguy said...

The Nazi ideology is very seductive once one accepts "the will to power" as Spiritual medicine for the sickness of life. Throw in the Jews to focus that will to power on an object of hatred and the mind will easily accepts social darwinism as rational. Besides, you then get to kill people and steal their stuff. This ideology has appeal to any group of young people who are without hope for a future.

fcai said...

Wow - how does that differ from liberal ideology?

MadisonMan said...

The next poll should be: To whom are 15-yo German girls attracted? Boys in Neo-Nazi groups, or boys in mainstream political parties?

Hoosier Daddy said...

The Nazi ideology is very seductive once one accepts "the will to power" as Spiritual medicine for the sickness of life. Throw in the Jews to focus that will to power on an object of hatred and the mind will easily accepts social darwinism as rational.

Sounds a lot like a certain religion.

Maguro said...

Wolfgang Schaeuble, Germany's interior minister, said at the presentation of the state-sponsored report he would push for the creation of more sports clubs in regions with social problems.

Who knew that the cure for pro-Nazi sentiment is more sports clubs? If only Hitler had been in a midnight basketball league or something, he wouldn't have even tried to exterminate the Jews and conquer the world.

Simon said...

Any party that tells young people that someone else is to blame for their problems - whether the "other" is the worldwide jewish cabal (TM) or George W. Bush and global corporations - is going to have a tremendous draw. It flatters the ego - "it's not that there's anything wrong with you, it's not that you did anything wrong, it's that your life is being ruined by forces beyond your control. But let us gang up together and we will take on the special interests spinning these wheels!"

Peter V. Bella said...

he would push for the creation of more sports clubs in regions with social problems.


I guess the Europeans are not real big on better education, they want to try the American urban failure- midnight basketball.

Peter V. Bella said...

But let us gang up together and we will take on the special interests spinning these wheels!"

Sounds like the Dumbocrat Party.

MadisonMan said...

I want to know: What does Cedarford think about this?

traditionalguy said...

Hoosier daddy... It clearly was and still is a pagan religion. Hitler was openly portrayed as the Germany's Messiah and Christianity outlawed in Germany in the 1930's. The current trend of seeking to forbid all expression of christian doctrines in public discourse opens the door to the substitutes that are not meek and loving. Did you notice that Barak Obama offered himself to become our substitute Messiah during the last election? All Obama needs to do to complete the picture is to innocently decide to reverse the last 60 years of the US Government's policy of opposing the extermination of another 6 million Jews living in Israel.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hitler was openly portrayed as the Germany's Messiah and Christianity outlawed in Germany in the 1930's

I don't believe Christianity was outlawed in Germany in the 30s. The Wehrmacht had chaplains in their ranks and I think the Gott mit Uns emblazoned on the army belt buckles would have been a bit contradictory to such a law.

traditionalguy said...

Hoosier Daddy... The God required to be worshiped at any remaining "Christian Organisation" in Germany was Dur Fuhrer himself, or else. That was outlawing Christianity by forced substitution of Gods. If you are forced to take the Hymnal at your Church and replace the word "Jesus" with the word "Hitler" in every song and are still allowed to sing, have they outlawed Christianity or not?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier Daddy... The God required to be worshiped at any remaining "Christian Organisation" in Germany was Dur Fuhrer himself, or else. That was outlawing Christianity by forced substitution of Gods.

I'm well aware that the German military was required to take an oath of loyalty to Hitler but I must have missed the chapter where Jesus was placed by Hitler in the Gospels. Perhaps you can supply a reference?

Balfegor said...

I don't believe Christianity was outlawed in Germany in the 30s.

Yes, that can't be right. The 1933 Reichskonkordat with the Church guaranteed the freedom to practice the Catholic religion. The Nazis were certainty opposed to Christianity in many respects, but they didn't try to outlaw it. Just marginalise it.

amba said...

Yeah, since when were 15-year-old boys active in mainstream politics? They can't even vote yet, and there's no forbidden, secret-society fun in it. Stupid statistic.

traditionalguy said...

Hey guys, I will have to produce some more later to backup my statement about Nazi Germany, but no matter what propaganda issued forth from the start up In 1933-34, the reality was a quick removal and imprisionment for any proclaiming of Christian doctrines in disagreement with Hitlers pagan nordic gods inside the Lutheran and Catholic organisations.

pj said...

We had two in our class back in the day. Here at least, it was about on the level of metal as far as teenage mutant boy identity - less about genuine political philosophy than than music choice and menacing pose. MS Republicans and Dems don't wear interesting boots and leather.

Oddly, the guys that got into both Marx and Mein Kampf came from the same group of math geeks. I remember one twisted little chubby guy who would regale us in full larval geek accent in the 6th grade with tales of which method of torture was found to be the most painful (metal rod driven up spine to brain).

Charlie Eklund said...

Christianity was not outlawed in Nazi Germany, nor was Hitler's name substituted in hymnals in every German church. Both Roman Catholic churches and Protestant churches stayed in business, essentially unmolested, from 1933 through 1945.

Obviously, Christian principles of love and forgiveness were marginalized in the Third Reich. Tragically, the Holocaust is a permanent reminder that the presence of Christian churches is no guarantee that people who are ostensibly Christian will behave in a way that follows Christ's teachings.

ricpic said...

It's natural to go with national socialism if your only other choice is international socialism.

The Exalted said...

traditionalguy,

christianity was coopted, not outlawed, by the nazis.

perhaps somewhere down the line in the thousand year reich christianity would have met its formal end, but not in the first twelve years.

TMink said...

"christianity was coopted, not outlawed, by the nazis."

That is my understanding as well. I watched a documentary on Bonhoffer, an actual Christian who openly opposed Hitler and participated in an attempt to assassinate him. In the documentary it showed a close photograph of beautiful German children at their confirmation. As the camera pulled out, you could see nazi flags and icons all behind them.

It was one of the most disgusting and chilling images I have ever seen. I wonder if God forgave the complicity of the "church?"

Trey

traditionalguy said...

One more try. The claim of Hitler was that he was restoring the Ayrans, who were Himalayan Psychics that had been nearly bred out of their supernatural powers by nefarious Jews and that jewish sect that called Jesus the Messiah(Christ) and God. There is no way that these two views co-existed. The State church and the Catholic church went silent hoping to be allowed to have an income and live until things changed. They were no longer allowed to preach a Christian doctrine in public or they would be taken away and never return.Only in the eyes of seductive Nazi propaganda were the christian churches "never outlawed". The Confessing church was murdered for Treason, because they were acting in a violation of that number one of Fuhrer's Laws.

Cedarford said...

Simon said...
Any party that tells young people that someone else is to blame for their problems - whether the "other" is the worldwide jewish cabal (TM) or George W. Bush and global corporations - is going to have a tremendous draw. It flatters the ego - "it's not that there's anything wrong with you, it's not that you did anything wrong, it's that your life is being ruined by forces beyond your control. But let us gang up together and we will take on the special interests spinning these wheels!"


Except that now accurately describes the general public in America - who have lost half of their 401Ks and half their house value to speculative bubbles and financial mismanagement by special interest groups. The Ruling Elites, from Chris Dodd to Barney Frank to the thankfuly departed Dubya to the leaders at AIG, Goldman Sachs to Hastert to Pelosi all screwed up badly. Not to mention all the connected elites and special interest group people appointed at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

And outside the financial meltdown, a majority of Americans believe US trade, immigration, Cuba, ME policies + 2 Wars, and agriculutral policy, plus 15,000 earmarks - are all due to our democratic system being partially destroyed and the rest hijacked by special interest groups. That their vote doesn't matter as much as what power lawyers, judges, and lobbyists inside the Beltway prefer instead.

Americans are practical people. They would like something in place that works over living with broken structures "Because it is traditional and It Is The Law!" Flaws to the law and the Constitution were addressed and changed in one major Revolution - the Civil War - and 4-5 peaceful Revolutions that transformed America - from Jacksonian Democracy to the New Deal to the Nixon-Reagan "Silent Majority" realignment.

My sense is the present financial breakdown, then the bigger future one as runaway entitlements are addressed will force another transformation that requires the special interests be subdued. And as we feel our way to that, nothing is really off the table for new political policy and structure.
*************
traditionalguy said...
Hey guys, I will have to produce some more later to backup my statement about Nazi Germany, but no matter what propaganda issued forth from the start up In 1933-34, the reality was a quick removal and imprisionment for any proclaiming of Christian doctrines in disagreement with Hitlers pagan nordic gods inside the Lutheran and Catholic organisations.


Sorry, but you are wrong and Hoosier Daddy and Balfegor are right.

What Hitler had was the ACLU's dream - strict separation of religion and state. A leadership that viewed religion as archaic and frowned upon. Plus the overly religious being excluded in high Party membership or certain SS groups as surely as the ACLU and Progressive Lawyers Guild weeds them out here. But for the average German - the idea that they were forced to abandon Christianity for "Nordic Gods" is ridiculous.

As opposed to the Soviet Union, where Christians were actively persecuted and killed by the Bolsheviks, rescued somewhat by Stalin later - while a "hands off policy" existed for Jews and Muslims until the 50s and Stalin's death, when a secular society was pushed hard until Gorbachev's day.

______________
Traditional Guy, in a hole because he does not understand the history of the Concordats, digs himself deeper @10:44

former law student said...

I agree with pj and amba -- adolescent dorks are drawn to the forbidden things that freak out their parents and established society. Only those still in thrall to their parents want to join the establishment right away. I'd be surprised if these "neo-Nazi groups" had any members older than 18.

As far as the Nazi respect for Christianity, with hindsight, we know all the evil Hitler and the Nazis were responsible for. But Hitler proposed the Concordat when he had been on the job only three months. Atrocities like Kristallnacht were five long years in the future.

But as Pastor Niemoeller's (Sachsenhausen and Dachau alumnus) poem makes clear, people did not want to believe the worst until it happened:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

traditionalguy said...

Cedarford... What I am saying is that when the public expression of the facts upon which a faith is based becomes forbidden without a simultaneous confession of the Fuhrer as the chosen one to Restore the Ancient Aryan bloodline's rights to rule the earth, which had been stolen by the Jews and that other slave religion called Christianity, then that faith has been de facto outlawed. The Church may remain a a show place and a social group meeting, but no Christian confession is allowed inside that building anymore. Deitrich BonHoeffer raised this exact issue, without knowing that it was all a silly mistake.

Revenant said...

One more try.

When you're in a hole, quit digging.

Chris said...

My father grew up in Nazi Germany and although he was young (born in 1933) his parents were practicing Mormons. My grandfather was in the Wehrmacht and not a member of the party so it is possible that one might have been forced to reject Christianity to get into the inner circle. That said, a lot of "Christian" organizations like the Catholic Church and the Mormons--if one wants to concede the sect is Christian--had to deal with a lot of criticism for their render unto Caesar cop out in not opposing Naziism.

Nicholas said...

This is actually a lot simpler.

These are just boys trying to get laid. 2009 German Nazi High Schoolers are pretty much the same thing as 1971 American Hippie High Schoolers.

1) It is rebelious and *bad*, which chicks dig. Swastikas are illegal, of course they're into them!
2) They, being high schoolers, are idiots and have very little understanding of the evil underlying their superficial ideology.
3) 15 year old boys are really really dumb. Trust me, I used to be one.

PatCA said...

In a small country that punishes free speech about WWII or race, this is inevitable.

traditionalguy said...

Revenant... Thanks. I will quit digging out of the hole now. I hope my efforts amused you. But I also hope that you remember that every Nazi is part of an occult religion with plans to kill off unbelievers starting with the weakling Saturday worshipers and finishing with the weakling Sunday worshipers.It's their attempt at a re-match with Moses who first humiliated them in front of Pharoah.

Chris said...

Well, aren't all religions occult if you don't believe in their Gods? You don't get to be Pope without at least convincing a number of people that you believe Catholic dogma.

Mark said...

Any party that tells young people that someone else is to blame for their problems - whether the "other" is the worldwide jewish cabal (TM) or George W. Bush and global corporations - is going to have a tremendous draw. It flatters the ego - "it's not that there's anything wrong with you, it's not that you did anything wrong, it's that your life is being ruined by forces beyond your control. But let us gang up together and we will take on the special interests spinning these wheels!"

But sometimes our lives really are being ruined by forces beyond our control, and sometimes those forces are "others". Ask the American Indians or any other group of people who had a massive influx of foreigners into their territory. "It ain't paranoia if there really is someone out to get you."

Bruce Hayden said...

I think that a lot of this is rebellion. A lot of good correct thinking Germans are embarrassed that they allowed that Austrian paper hanger to use them to such an effect, and as a result, their children joining neo-Nazi groups horrifies them like it would no other nationality. Never mind that their parents or grandparents willingly joined the real Nazi party, nor that somehow the pagan / white supremacist thing seems to somehow appeal to the darker side of the good, decent, responsible, nice, Germans.

Hoosier Daddy said...

But I also hope that you remember that every Nazi is part of an occult religion with plans to kill off unbelievers starting with the weakling Saturday worshipers and finishing with the weakling Sunday worshipers.

Seriously where are you getting this stuff or are you making it up as you go? Outside of socialism forming the basis of Nazi economic policy, racial purity was a bigger factor than if Hans was going to a Catholic or Luthern church.

traditionalguy said...

HD... The point is that the Race that Hitler wanted to rule the survivors of his world conquest was not going to be the existing German speaking folks who won the war for him. It was going to be a carefully inbred new race descended from top Nazi's who had been picked for their skill in the practice of psychic Powers.Hitler felt that He must clear out all Jews and believing Christians to get this 1000 year Reich the space in which to develop. While the war's outcome was still in doubt, from early 1943 until early 1945, with Jets and other superior weapons coming available to them, the Nazis still spent 1/3 of their remaining fuel and transport capacity running the effort to finish off the Jews. If they had spent those resources on pilot training, they likely would have won. Watch the actions, not the propaganda in those years. The Same for Obama's actions in the next two years.

Revenant said...

But I also hope that you remember that every Nazi is part of an occult religion with plans to kill off unbelievers starting with the weakling Saturday worshipers and finishing with the weakling Sunday worshipers.

That has the honor of being the stupidest Alhouse blog comment about Nazis that wasn't written by Cedarford.

Cedarford said...

traditional guy - While the war's outcome was still in doubt, from early 1943 until early 1945, with Jets and other superior weapons coming available to them, the Nazis still spent 1/3 of their remaining fuel and transport capacity running the effort to finish off the Jews. If they had spent those resources on pilot training, they likely would have won.

Nazi Germany's fate was sealed in 1943 with the February loss of Stalingrad and their whole 6th Army. And at Kursk, by early August, which gave the Soviets the permanent strategic initiative and superiority in armor and artillery warfare until the Axis surrender.

You are also wrong about fuel and transport stock being 30% devoted to Jew movement and supply and 70% to the war effort and supply. The 8 million men Germany deployed required immense logistical support, fuel and resources from 1939 to 45 that dwarfed any resource allocation to killing non-military people. Most of the train traffic to the camps was short haul, as well. (Why the camps were mostly located in the Pale - thats where 75% of the people sent to the camps lived...)What there was was grumbling after the war that if 13 of 5700 trains a week moving to or from the Eastern front carried one-trip only concentration camp destinees or their meagre supplies - it was 13 trains too many "And if we only had those 13 trains, we would have won!"

Nowadays, talk of how Germany lost the war because it wanted to "kill the Jews" makes a convenient, but false narrative on Germany's war effort errors. IT's tempting to say that hatred killed the monster, done in by it's own evil. Just not true

And your idea that "more pilot training!!" would have won the war for Germany is silly. Germany maintained a slight superiority on the Eastern Front until war's end and still lost. And when they had dominant air superiority - 1941-mid 1943, they found it useless in siege situations like Moscow, Stalingrad - fairly useless against tank columns, dug in troops and artillery, or troop resupply at Stalingrad. Of value in the early war of supporting open maneuver warfare, and in slowing down the Red Army and defeat later in the war and of high value in blocking the enemy from closing with and destroying vulnerable retreating German forces.

"The battle's lost, run! No wait for our planes to show up to cover the retreat!"

Cedarford said...

Revenent, your ball-licking to Israel is duly noted. Does that give you some sort of honorary citizenship or just a check or thank-you from AIPAC?

Chris said...

@ Cedarford re the German view re their chances in WW2

Anecdotal, but my grandfather told my father in 43 that the Germans (his team) were going to lose. There is a lot of debate about this but an argument can be made that the leaking of the Morgenthau plan had some effect on the German resistance in the west. Also anecdotal, but my father says the first couple of years after the war were worse than the war. The logic goes that it wasn't until the Americans realized that making nice with the Germans was the best approach to deal with the Soviet threat.

Frodo Potter said...

David’s point asking how many American boys are involved in politics is well-taken. And, as someone pointed out, an awful lot of 15 year old boys are rebellious jerks.

Having said that, I have to ask if everyone has read the whole article. Further on, the writer makes the point that, in the former East Germany, one out of every eight boys is involved. I find that a bit unsettling.

Germany has a population of roughly 83 million. Half are female, so there are 41.5 million males. It is likely that close to three million are aged 15-20. If the average Neo-Nazi participation amongst teenaged boys across Germany is even one out of twenty (and, based on the percentage in the former East Germany, that seems a fair assumption) then there are 150,000 German Neo-Nazis aged 15-20. In the United States this would extrapolate out to close to 600,000. This is an average of 12,000 per state and in some states it might be closer to 50,000 Neo-Nazis aged 15-20. Keep in mind that I tried to be conservative with my numbers and that I underestimated what the article itself reported.

Feeling a little more nervous now?

Revenant said...

Feeling a little more nervous now?

Not particularly. Even if Germany became 100% Nazi I don't see what they'd accomplish. They're located between two nuclear powers -- France and Russia -- that dislike them and have no sense of humor about the Third Reich. They're quasi-occupied by a third, America.

So what are they going to do? Start advocating anti-American or anti-Israeli diplomacy? This will represent a change from the norm how, exactly? :)

rcocean said...

What is a "Neo" Nazi? I get suspicious when people slap a "Neo" on something and then try to scare us.

Nazism is illegal in Germany. No reason to believe its ever coming back considering the damage it did to Germany. But who knows, maybe the South will secede again. There are a lot of "Neo-Confederates" out there. And I think the Sioux may go on warpath again, so watch out South Dakota!

I wonder how many "Neo-Communists" there are in Germany? Probably a lot more than the "Neo-Nazis".

Revenant said...

I wonder how many "Neo-Communists" there are in Germany? Probably a lot more than the "Neo-Nazis".

They don't actually bother with the "neo" bit.

Frodo Potter said...

Revenant said “Not particularly. Even if Germany became 100% Nazi I don't see what they'd accomplish. They're located between two nuclear powers -- France and Russia -- that dislike them and have no sense of humor about the Third Reich. They're quasi-occupied by a third, America.

So what are they going to do? Start advocating anti-American or anti-Israeli diplomacy? This will represent a change from the norm how, exactly? :)”


Rev, you are right that they are already largely anti-American and anti-Israel (though not true, I would argue, of Merkel). I will say that their sentiments could well intensify. You are also assuming that there are no sympathetic teenage boys in France or Russia, not to mention the Ukraine, Poland, or the Scandinavian countries. In the same way that their elders are trying to unite around free trade and a common currency, these lads could unite around a violent ideology. I might recommend a book by Martin A. Lee, “The Beast Reawakens.” It provides some surprising facts about the transnational bond amongst fascists.