October 8, 2008

Camille Paglia, still a big Obama supporter, loves Sarah and Todd as "powerful new symbols of a revived contemporary feminism."

She writes:
... Todd and Sarah Palin... have emerged as powerful new symbols of a revived contemporary feminism. That the macho Todd, with his champion athleticism and working-class cred, can so amiably cradle babies and care for children is a huge step forward in American sexual symbolism.

... During her vice-presidential debate last week with Joe Biden (whose conspiratorial smiles with moderator Gwen Ifill were outrageous and condescending toward his opponent), I laughed heartily at Palin's digs and slams and marveled at the way she slowly took over the entire event. I was sorry when it ended! But Biden wasn't -- judging by his Gore-like sighs and his slow sinking like a punctured blimp. Of course Biden won on points, but TV (a visual medium) never cares about that.
Paglia says the anti-Palinists have "behaved like snippy jackasses." Snippy jackasses! Don't you hate when jackasses get snippy?
The bourgeois conventionalism and rank snobbery of these alleged humanitarians stank up the place. As for Palin's brutally edited interviews with Charlie Gibson and that viper, Katie Couric, don't we all know that the best bits ended up on the cutting-room floor? Something has gone seriously wrong with Democratic ideology, which seems to have become a candied set of holier-than-thou bromides attached like tutti-frutti to a quivering green Jell-O mold of adolescent sentimentality.
Quivering green Jell-O mold? Is that what Obama had behind his ear? (Transcript: "Now, Sen. McCain suggests that somehow, you know, I'm green behind the ears and, you know, I'm just spouting off, and he's somber and responsible.") Or what McCain was trying to nail to the wall? (Transcript: "Well, you know, nailing down Sen. Obama's various tax proposals is like nailing Jell-O to the wall. ")

Back to Paglia:
And where is all that lurid sexual fantasy coming from? When I watch Sarah Palin, I don't think sex -- I think Amazon warrior! I admire her competitive spirit and her exuberant vitality, which borders on the supernormal.
Paglia must be overjoyed to have a real-live political figure who fits her theories so well. After 2 decades of analyzing Madonna, she must be ravenous for this new subject matter. No wonder she's sick of the media elites serving up candy-tutti-frutti-Jell-O. Finally, a full-course meal.

Paglia speculates that Sarah Palin may be part Native American and savages the people who think Palin might be dumb. I'll skip some of that and get to the part about feminism:
The next phase of feminism must circle back and reappropriate the ancient persona of the mother -- without losing career ambition or power of assertion. Betty Friedan, who had first attacked the cult of postwar domesticity, had long warned second-wave feminists such as Gloria Steinem about the damaging exclusion of homemakers from their value system. The animus of liberal feminists toward religion must also end (I am speaking as an atheist). Feminism must reexamine all of its assumptions, including its death grip on abortion, if it wishes to survive.

The hysterical emotionalism and eruptions of amoral malice at the arrival of Sarah Palin exposed the weaknesses and limitations of current feminism. But I am convinced that Palin's bracing mix of male and female voices, as well as her grounding in frontier grit and audacity, will prove to be a galvanizing influence on aspiring Democratic women politicians too, from the municipal level on up. Palin has shown a brand-new way of defining female ambition -- without losing femininity, spontaneity or humor. She's no pre-programmed wonk of the backstage Hillary Clinton school; she's pugnacious and self-created, the product of no educational or political elite -- which is why her outsider style has been so hard for media lemmings to comprehend.
Well said.

In a similar vein, here's what I said about why Palin is great for feminism:
[F]eminism is something that transcends party politics. Women have interests that the parties should have to compete for. I want a vivid debate about what is good for women. Sarah Palin represents one argument, and her feminism will require Democrats to improve their argument and not take women for granted. Sarah Palin brings feminism to a lot of people who've been scorning feminism -- because feminism has seemed like a strand of Democratic party politics.

150 comments:

Synova said...

I don't think that feminism has *seemed* like a strand of Democratic Party politics. I think that it clearly is.

The only thing I disagree with Camille, without getting nit-picky for the sake of it, is the idea that cradling babies and playing with small children has ever been anything but macho.

The absent while present father is a modern sort of thing, I think, that goes along with a 1950's sanitized house-wifery, rubber gloves to change the diapers, that sort of thing.

But picture the warriors coming home from the hunt (or soldiers today)... any historical setting... lets go for vikings for kicks and giggles... which one of those muscled barbarians doesn't want to be bothered with the children? No. The kids are running out to see dad, or uncle Leif (my kids have an uncle Leif!), or their big brother, and it's a kid pile. Right there. And the kids want to hear stories, and the men tell stories.

Think about it biologically... a man surrounded by children is a virile man. A man too tidy for small children, separate from small children, is a sterile man.

Original George said...

But as much as she adores Palin, she's for Obama.

"I am one of the many who regard Obama as authentically inspirational -- as a leader appealing to our better nature rather than armoring us in eternal fear and paranoia against our fellow human beings. I remember how John F. Kennedy (the first politician I ever campaigned for) electrified young people and transformed our political reality, which was about to emerge from the long, grey slog of the Cold War."

She thinks Obama is the new JFK. A new improved fantasy product. Blistering dissection of his administration from Buckley, reviewing the Reeves biography.

And what's with Drudge always, always linking to everything she writes?

SteveR said...

Well said indeed. As a husband of a sucessful business woman and father of three girls (18, 15 and 12), what Sarah Palin represents is what I want for them. Maybe she's not the right person for that role ultimately but she's close.

Freeman Hunt said...

Wow. Incredible Paglia column. I doubt that Paglia and I agree on anything political, but I couldn't agree with her more about feminism. I may actually buy one of her books after reading this and some of her other recent columns.

I especially liked the observation about Todd Palin. I dislike the current large crop of neutered men I see who've picked up the nurturing family thing but dropped the man thing. I'm a woman, therefore I like the man thing. To add the nurturing family-centered character to the traditional male character is the ideal. I love it.

m00se said...

Gotta love Paglia - she's a bundle of contradictions. I started out an art student and minored in art criticism. Her writings were recommended to me early on, and I've followed her ever since.

She epitomizes the idea that you don't have to defined by your sexual orientation - you just live your life.

I like her, I like her observations regarding Obama (she's had some critical observations of him as well), and I like the fact that she likes Palin, for all the non-traditional reasons.

I think that Palin is going to come out of the election seasoned somewhat by her exposure and the frightening reaction it provoked.

I do think that if she plays it right, Palin has a good chance at the presidency in '12, particularly given the coming almost certain Carter-esque Obama tenure.

It'll be intersting to watch the Democratic party open its arms to Hillary to oppose Palin should Palin choose to run...

madawaskan said...

You know unlike Paglia I actually took military history, while being on the hockey and synchronized swim teams in college.

Head cheerleader in high school-guess you could say I am immune to being *charmed*.

Oh and btw the military history professors were the least chauvinistic...

Figure that one out.

madawaskan said...

Here's the question that probably illustrates my point better-

Did Paglia get this excited about Condi Rice?

Doyle said...

The idea that Sarah Palin, fairly or unfairly (and it's fairly), has become such a joke seems pretty incompatible with her being a boon for feminism.

LarsPorsena said...

So Paglia thinks BHO is the new JFK? You'll never hear these words out of an BHO supporter.....

JFK:

"...We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans—born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage—and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty....."

What ever spirit animated the Democratic party then, has long since died.

Spread Eagle said...

What if Paglia, an out lesbian, is really and in actuality a closeted rightwinger pretending to be a liberal? Paglia could never survive amongst her colleagues and cohort as a conservative. But as a professed and supposed liberal, an iconoclastic liberal, she thrives.

Synova said...

This is second hand, of course, but David Weber was at our local SF con (he writes, for those who've never heard of him, military science fiction with strong female lead characters) and, of course, the subject of fiction with strong female POV characters was brought up.

Oh and btw the military history professors were the least chauvinistic...

And Weber's passionate interest is military history.

It was interesting, and this is from memory - not a quote, that he rejected the idea that his most famous fictional military leader, Honor Harrington, was a woman in a man's role. In his opinion good military leaders tend to have an abundance of feminine characteristics. It's what makes them good military leaders. To *him* (as I recall his comments) there was no disconnect between Honor's job as a naval commander and her femininity.

Simon said...

"In a similar vein, here's what I said about why Palin is great for feminism: '[F]eminism is something that transcends party politics ... Sarah Palin represents one argument, and her feminism will require Democrats to improve their argument and not take women for granted. Sarah Palin brings feminism to a lot of people who've been scorning feminism -- because feminism has seemed like a strand of Democratic party politics.'"

And what will become of that lesson if those who would destroy Palin are allowed to succeed? Palin will only be good for feminism if McCain wins - if he loses, the message to other women who might be inclined to follow her path is that if they risk thinking for themselves, to deviate from the orthodoxy, unless you kowtow to the old order the liberal feminist establishment, what happened to Palin is what will happen to you. You will be destroyed, caricatured by the mainstream media.

Palin's selection has opened a door to a new, broader feminism - but I really want to know whether you disagree that said door will slam shut if Obama's win emboldens her detractors?

Oxbay said...

Althouse writes (Transcript: "Now, Sen. McCain suggests that somehow, you know, I'm green behind the ears and, you know, I'm just spouting off, and he's somber and responsible.")

It would have been funny if Obama had misspoke and said Now, Sen. McCain suggests that somehow, you know, I'm green behind the ears and, you know, I'm just sprouting off, and he's somber and responsible.

Sigivald said...

because feminism has seemed like a strand of Democratic party politics

Well, the most prominent sort of feminism has, I suppose.

But as synova said, that sort doesn't seem like it's a strand of Democratic Party politics, it is; both Democrats and the Nth-Wave feminists assure me that it is, both openly and indirectly.

Here's hoping that feminism of the Pandagon variety self-destructs before it does any more harm to women, let alone the polity as a whole.

integrity said...

Ann Althouse said:

Paglia must be overjoyed to have a real-live political figure who fits her theories so well. After 2 decades of analyzing Madonna, she must be ravenous for this new subject matter. No wonder she's sick of the media elites serving up candy-tutti-frutti-Jell-O. Finally, a full-course meal.



She'll never get the mileage out of Palin that she got out of Madonna. Paglia owes her two decades of notoriety to Madonna and Madonna alone. Obscurity is Paglia's destiny, with a good chance that her new crush (Palin) is a co-passenger on the flight.

Synova said...

Heh.

Integrity and Doyle and the other usual suspects go for the Hello Kitty brand of feminism. No mouth. No voice.

Palin will disappear.

Paglia must fade to obscurity.

Trooper York said...

I enjoy David Weber's work but Honor Harrington is Horatio Hornblower with a sex change.

It's an old trick to rewrite a story with a woman in the man's role.

His best work is with Eric Flint in the 1632 series.

Trooper York said...

It is correct to postulate that feminists will support Sarah Palin is indeed science fiction at it's most imaginative.

Synova said...

Which, of course, and I mean this as an answer to you, Simon, is not going to happen.

Palin (and I suppose Paglia as well) haven't stepped out into public with the assumption of female approval and the message to women will be the same if Palin becomes VP or not.

The message is "screw feminism."

As Paglia said "Feminism must reexamine all of its assumptions, including its death grip on abortion, if it wishes to survive."

No matter what happens at this election the tide is turning and if feminism is going to survive it has to accommodate Sarah Palin.

If it *can't* and abortion and liberal politics is all it's got left, then too bad. Women like me are going to stay pro-life and stay individualist capitalist. We don't care what the liberal feminist establishment thinks about anything because we've never ever had their approval and never will.

Does feminism have something to offer that's worth ensuring its survival? Is there some good reason not to have a victory party and call it quits?

If so, feminism going to have to accommodate, at least metaphorically, Sarah Palin. Because even if Sarah goes back to Alaska and serves to term limit as governor before going moose hunting with her grandkids and we never see her again, she represents a whole lot of women who simply don't see any need to ask anyone for permission.

That won't change.

Alex said...

Everyone in my family agrees that McCain is a loser, is going to lose and that Obama is going to destroy America.

Michael McNeil said...

Synova says:
Integrity and Doyle and the other usual suspects go for the Hello Kitty brand of feminism. No mouth. No voice.
Palin will disappear.
Paglia must fade to obscurity.


That ilk continually attempt to create a self-fulfilling prophesy amongst (interjecting a meme into the heads of) the rest of us mirroring their desires — you see it in these threads constantly.

Synova said...

Trooper... his point wasn't that Honor isn't Horatio Hornblower in a skirt, he's pretty much up front about that... but that the "man's role" is only/mostly a "man's role" in a historical sense.

A couple of the women authors suggested that strong female characters in fiction did well only/usually when they occupied a male role... and were acting like a man instead of acting like a woman.

As written, presumably you've read at least a couple of the books, do you think that Honor *acts* like a man? I never did. I found her very easy to identify with, with how she felt about her command, how she dealt with her crew, and the choices she had to make and all that. As a woman, if I must say so, the extreme vengeance of her actions in entering into a duel and the outright slaughtering her opponent (both times that happened, but particularly the first) seemed, to me, profoundly feminine.

I don't know about Horatio, not having read him in the original, but Honor isn't a man in a skirt.

Trooper York said...

Palin must continue to attack the real enemies of America, the media.

The greatest service she could do to her country is to facilitate the destruction or at the very least the total marginalization of the corrupt biased and treasonous main stream media.

The only thing worse than a journalist is a lawyer.

Synova said...

His best work is with Eric Flint in the 1632 series.

His best work is his fantasy.

But military SF brings in the bucks.

As for 1632... awesome book.

Alex said...

trooper - how do we destroy the MSM? Seems like an impossible task...

Hoosier Daddy said...

I remember how John F. Kennedy (the first politician I ever campaigned for) electrified young people and transformed our political reality, which was about to emerge from the long, grey slog of the Cold War.

Considering how people like Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller are absolutely despised by liberals today, I find it hysterical that they still idolize JFK.

Then I remind myself that a liberal's actual knowledge of history is limited to the stolen election of 2000 and the last eight years of Bush the Usurper.

Hoosier Daddy said...

But military SF brings in the bucks.

Best military SF is Jerry Pournelle's Falkenberg series.

Hands down

Trooper York said...

Synova, the figure of Honor Harrington is a convention in science fiction, the warrior woman who leads but is ambivalent about power and her decision making. The trend in most military science fiction is to have a woman doing things that a man can not if he is not to be termed racist or fascist. Examples include SM Stirling’s Marian Alston in the Island in the Sea of Time Series as the black lesbian coast guard captain who can do to indigenous peoples what an old white man could never do, or Adele Mundy the spy/information master who is a duelist and spy while Lt. Leary is the innocent leader in David Drake’s series about Cinnabar (not the donut house). The heroic service that the women of our forces have displayed in Iraq has show thata woman can be just as capable in combat as any man. Just as brave and I bet just as mean. And everyone knows that woman are much crueler than men. That is why the mountain men prayed that if they were captured that they would be killed outright and not turned over to the women.

Same as it ever was.

Simon said...

Synova said...
"No matter what happens at this election the tide is turning and if feminism is going to survive it has to accommodate Sarah Palin."

If this election destroys Palin, then why is the message not sent to other non-liberal feminists that they should keep their mouths shut and stay out of view on pain of the same treatment? And if liberal feminism can suppress the voices - indeed, deny the very legitimacy and existence - of non-liberal feminism with this kind of brutal intimidation, why would it need to "accommodate" it?

peter hoh said...

I love Paglia and her refusal to fit into any boxes.

Palin may or may not inspire changes within the larger currents of feminism. I think she is more likely to have a significant impact on conservatives and how they view gender equality.

Perhaps Palin's nomination is an expression of changes that have already happened within conservative circles, but hadn't yet been expressed in such a tangible way.

Trooper York said...

"trooper - how do we destroy the MSM? Seems like an impossible task..."

Sarah is showing you the way. Laugh in their face and explain that what they think doesn't matter. Go to the people directly like Reagan did. Don't worry what pointy headed pantywaists think, they are going to hate you and lie about you anyway. The best defense is a good offense. Laugh in their face and tell them to go screw. Their industry is dying and they don't even know it. Keep the pressure on. They will fold every time.

Alex said...

trooper - yet if the MSM were losing their grip, would Obama be leading by 7 points?

TMink said...

Synova wrote: "Women like me are going to stay pro-life and stay individualist capitalist. We don't care what the liberal feminist establishment thinks about anything because we've never ever had their approval and never will."

Mam, I doubt you ever needed a damn thing from the feminists. You have been too busy getting things for yourself.

God bless you.

Trey

TMink said...

Camille Paglia is a liberal who is coherent and has critical thinking skills. She will always have a job because she has so little competition.

I disagree with Paglia more often than not, but I can follow her logic and respect her intellect and thought process. She and Rush Limbaugh are famous friends.

Sadly, she is almost one of a kind.

Trey

Trooper York said...

They aren't losing their grip because we are still kowtowing to them. We need to work at actively destroying them. For example, don't accept any main stream journalists as the debate moderators. Screw 'em. Pick normal regular americans who are experts in their field. Ask them the same questions and let’s see what they have to say. Less fluff and more substance.

Plus there are a lot of factors in this election beyond the media. It’s not over yet. You are only basing this gloom and doom on biased polls generated in the media. It will be a lot closer than you think in the end. It always is that way, or at least for the last few elections. Wait and see and don’t believe the lies spread by the press.

Simon said...

Trooper York said...
"Sarah is showing you the way. Laugh in their face and explain that what they think doesn't matter."

So with the media as my comment above about feminism. Doesn't your theory fail if the media's concerted campaign to destroy her is allowed to bear fruit? If she is destroyed, doesn't that in fact prove that the MSM is relevant? For their attacks on her to be irrelevant, she has to win in spite of them.

Isn't there an antitrust claim of conscious parallelism about the media's lockstep assault on Palin? ;0

vbspurs said...

Spread Eagle wrote:

What if Paglia, an out lesbian, is really and in actuality a closeted rightwinger pretending to be a liberal? Paglia could never survive amongst her colleagues and cohort as a conservative. But as a professed and supposed liberal, an iconoclastic liberal, she thrives.

I'm sure none of us here knows a lady who writes about politics and feminism who would pretend to be a liberal but is secretly a conservative.

Do we?

Cheers,
Victoria

Synova said...

Why does feminism have to accommodate Sarah Palin if it can suppress her instead?

Because we're not talking about the survival of women like Sarah, we're talking about the survival of feminism.

I may be wrong but this is how I read what Ann had said earlier about how Palin could be good for feminism... that being forced to recognize the feminism of Sarah Palin will help to separate feminism from Democratic/liberal politics and make women's issues something each party has to "compete for."

At the moment "women's issues" is synonymous with "Democrat".

Except...

Perhaps Palin's nomination is an expression of changes that have already happened within conservative circles, but hadn't yet been expressed in such a tangible way.

The oft repeated idea that Republicans or conservatives in general don't view women as equal in rights *and* ability is an idea repeated by Democrats. And the proof is usually either abortion (choice!) or the conservative tendency to not support "equal pay for equal work" even though no one disagrees that a person should be paid for their productivity no matter their gender or race.

The only way that conservatives are not into gender equality is when gender equality is defined by politics and not equality.

Palin may be a tangible expression of this, but she's not the first. And she's not the first to get her "woman" chevrons ripped from her sleeves and her sword symbolically broken over it. And she's not the first to say, "Ya, do ya feel better now? Because I've got things ta be doing, don't ya know."

But mostly, she's not the last.

If she doesn't get to be VP it's not going to be because the feminists tore her down. It's going to be because McCain is uninspiring and people are tired of Bush.

To the extent that it might be seen as being silenced for not properly toeing the feminist line... that can hardly reflect well on feminists, can it?

Trooper York said...

"What doesn't kill us makes us stronger."

The media hasn't destroyed Sarah Palin. The lies and smears and reckless innuendo have in fact exposed these charlatans for the biased hacks they really are. What Palin should have done is to go for their throats. If some TV twat like Campbell Brown asks "who will take care of her kids," ask her who the fuck is taking care of her kids. The illegal immigrant nanny from Ecuador. Stick it to them. They lie. They fabricate. They are scum. Don't play by their rules. That's a losing game.

The only thing worst than a journalist is a lawyer. (Sorry Simon but it's true).

jdeeripper said...

Althouse - Paglia speculates that Sarah Palin may be part Native American and savages the people who think Palin might be dumb.

Easy now. If Mort were awake he'd call that racist.

vbspurs said...

When I read this piece of Paglia's last night, I was struck by how much she gets Palin as I see her.

I mean, she uses exactly the same talking points, like her butch feminism, her Native American features, her Amazonian warrioress persona (I had a post planned with this title!).

Paglia is a bisexual liberal with strong Italian working-class roots. I'm a straight conservative, rootless but clinging happily to America my new country, but as elite as you can get.

And yet Paglia and I have our buttons pushed in EXACTLY the same way by Palin.

I'm sorry that there are some who are put off by Palin, but if you get Palin, she is a transcendant woman.

She yanks you back to a more ballsy, less politically correct America, at the same time reminding you just how sexy women could be, when they lacked the ugly mask of feminism.

Her politics might be a work in progress, but she has that woman-thingie down pat.

That's what some women find so threatening about her. They are right to be. Victimhood is over if she gets in.

Cheers,
Victoria

Synova said...

"The trend in most military science fiction is to have a woman doing things that a man can not if he is not to be termed racist or fascist."

Heh.

Sounds familiar.

And see... I didn't take us on an unrelated tangent after all. ;-)

Trooper York said...

Not at all kid, I knew what you were doing.

Synova said...

Mam, I doubt you ever needed a damn thing from the feminists. You have been too busy getting things for yourself.

Heh.

I'm not very good at getting things, but I suppose it's true to say that I've gotten what I wanted. I just don't see the point of letting someone tell me what I should want.

But really, and I want to be clear, I'm thankful, very much so, to all the women who pushed for equal rights, for voting and owning property, yes, and for everything done to give women the right to chose... to chose where she will go and when, who she will marry, and if she will, or will not, have sex.

I think that the unfairness of life has always been equal opportunity and I think that our mothers and grandmothers did a whole lot to make it better for everyone.

It's my sisters I have issues with.

blake said...

Simon--

What you say would be true if there were someone other than McCain at the helm, and Palin had hurt his chances.

I mean, I'm voting for the guy precisely because of the savaging of Palin. (I don't share Althouse's sanguine view of, say, Obama's membership in the New Party but at the same time McCain is only barely less socialist. He's just not on the official team.)

But the cry I'm hearing from the right is "Palin 2012". The base loves her. I think Syn and V represent a whole class of women who are more likely to feel the idea that they MUST be Dems is an oppressive one.

In that sense, whether she runs in 2012 or not, the damage is done: Palin has imprinted the national imagination.

integrity said...

Women find Palin threatening because she is the broad in the church lobby after the service that flirts with your husband and you want to rip the eyeballs out of. Women know who this woman is, she is in their churches and they don't like her one bit. They know her very well.

I would love to see Palin flirt with VD's husband or boyfriend. Let's see how much you like her then(especially after you see your boyfriend or husband's hard-on after she flirts with them).

It's called a femme fatale, geniuses.

rhhardin said...

[F]eminism is something that transcends party politics. Women have interests that the parties should have to compete for. I want a vivid debate about what is good for women. Sarah Palin represents one argument, and her feminism will require Democrats to improve their argument and not take women for granted. Sarah Palin brings feminism to a lot of people who've been scorning feminism -- because feminism has seemed like a strand of Democratic party politics.

Some people have noticed that feminism hasn't much to do with what women can sustain an interest in. It's not obvious that Palin further's that either, though she's got a nice narrative, like The Solid Gold Cadallic (uppity ordinary woman ousts the rascals and takes over the company, but it doesn't go on from there). It might be a woman in a high position, but it's not feminism in your sense.

rhhardin said...

I wonder if further's was an artifact of a backspace editing jungle, or if fingers have their own mind.

marklewin said...

The definition and relevance of any 'ism' including feminism very much depends on the context.

And the existence of the mainstream media permits the Republican Party to demand their own version of reparations and affirmative action. No mainstream media....no Rush Limbaugh.......kinda like the God-Satan dialectic. Conservatives and republicans should embrace the mainstream media. THE MSM is the conservative's version of the 'establishment'....'the man'. They supply the bulletin board material to gin up the base.

Simon said...

Synova said...
"Why does feminism have to accommodate Sarah Palin if it can suppress her instead? Because we're not talking about the survival of women like Sarah, we're talking about the survival of feminism."

I don't understand the premise that liberal feminism is in any danger of not surviving - indeed, of not thriving - in the long night of an Obama administration and its sucessor directories.

Trooper York said...
"The media hasn't destroyed Sarah Palin."

I don't disagree with the rest of your comment, but if McCain-Palin is defeated, it's hard to reach the conclusion that the media's disgraceful campaign to shred her has not been effective in shaping the political landscape of the next four, eight or however many years.

Simon said...

integrity said...
"Women find Palin threatening because she is the broad in the church lobby"

I thought that if your kind tries to enter a church, you catch fire?

Cedarford said...

Synova said...
I don't think that feminism has *seemed* like a strand of Democratic Party politics. I think that it clearly is.


Freidan indicated at various times that she was upset that her Jewush Stalinist family's intellectual efforts in the Bronx, including 50's feminism - was hijacked by the Manhattan Jew celebrities, angry lesbians, and various ignorant Gentiles. But like a good Stalinist, Freidan kept her mouth shut.

Unlike Monica Lewinsky.

Freidan died both disappointed and immensely pleased, that NYC Jews and bulldyke male animosity had defined their Lewinsky "comuppance".
She thought a new era of feminism awaited.

Trooper York said...

Marklewin what you say is very astute. I don’t really disagree. But my point is that we need to attack them and destroy them if we can. Because they are our enemy and should not get a pass. McCain is learning a bitter lesson form these scumbags. They loved him when he was attacking his party and tacking to the left. He basked in their sunlight of their opinion. I think that's where he got the melanoma. But now they have turned on him like the vicious dogs that they are. And he can't believe it. What a fool. His only chance is to attack them and the lies they are telling of both omission and commission. If he doesn't take the gloves off and go bare knuckle he will lose. And deserve to lose.

AJ Lynch said...

Paglia is open minded. It is greatest trait. She does not have to read others before she forms her own opinion.

After debates, it'd be fun to see the talking heads placed in separate cones of silence so they could not agree beforehand on the meme for the post-debate chatfest.

Alex said...

In the end this election comes down to this political reality:

The American people want the government to save them. They believe Obama as a liberal Democrat is more likely to do it with enthusiasm, then then Republican McCain. It's just that simple. It has nothing to do with Bush, Iraq or Palin.

Synova said...

Women find Palin threatening because she is the broad in the church lobby after the service that flirts with your husband and you want to rip the eyeballs out of. Women know who this woman is, she is in their churches and they don't like her one bit. They know her very well.

And this is why it's the religious ladies who hate her so much.

(I'm trying to remember who the flirt at church was... hm... golly... you know, I *don't* know her. I know the old guy who had a stroke and no longer has the acuity to pretend he's not staring at my butt. I have several templates for "church ladies" bless their hearts. You gotta love them. And there were some reformed prostitutes in the Philippines that came to church in their work clothes (if that's the dress you've got, that's the dress you wear.) There was the pilot's wife in Florida, bless her, with her southern drawl and big blond hair, pink fuzzy sweater and tight skirt, but she was sweet and it's not her fault God built her like a barbie doll. And then there was that guy who absolutely had to hug everyone... I'd get to church with a plan, arms full, duck into the nursery, wait until he grabbed someone else and then run.

Still trying to identify the church hussy flirting with my husband... I know I know her, I must know her. That cat fight vibe, rip her eyes out... it's going to come to me any moment now.)

Alex said...

How can you call yourself open-minded and vote for Obama? That is the height of close-mindedness.

integrity said...

Simon said...
integrity said...
"Women find Palin threatening because she is the broad in the church lobby"

I thought that if your kind tries to enter a church, you catch fire?



Funny. Unfortunately in my youth I was at church 5 times a week(twice sunday, once wednesday, youth group twice). I also attended a radically right-wing(no makeup for girls, hair above collar for guys-or you were sent home, and many were)christian school from 4th to 10th grade. I am very aware of the scene of which I speak.

Donn said...

Alex:
The American people want the government to save them.

Exactly! And in this regard, it's hard to tell the difference between McCain and Obama, since they both pander to this sentiment.

Alex said...

Funny. Unfortunately in my youth I was at church 5 times a week(twice sunday, once wednesday, youth group twice). I also attended a radically right-wing(no makeup for girls, hair above collar for guys-or you were sent home, and many were)christian school from 4th to 10th grade. I am very aware of the scene of which I speak.

3:11 PM

Correction: We are very aware of your anti-Christian bigotry.

Steven said...

And where is all that lurid sexual fantasy coming from? When I watch Sarah Palin, I don't think sex -- I think Amazon warrior! I admire her competitive spirit and her exuberant vitality, which borders on the supernormal.

Because, of course, no one could ever have sexual fantasies about a competitive, exuberantly vital Amazon warrior.

Alex said...

Exactly! And in this regard, it's hard to tell the difference between McCain and Obama, since they both pander to this sentiment.

3:11 PM

They can't face the horrific reality of what they've done(HELOC, credit card debts, student debts, jumbo loans, sub-prime loans, etc...) and want the government to bail them out...

Synova said...

OH!

You're talking teen aged hormones in full fledged ignition... *those* church flirts.

Okay, got it.

Can't see how Palin fits into that but, sure.

Alex said...

Because, of course, no one could ever have sexual fantasies about a competitive, exuberantly vital Amazon warrior.

3:16 PM

Where is Palin's magic lasso when we need it?

Trooper York said...

Synova when you come up with the description of the hussy that you going to have a catfight can you describe it in detail. You know heaving bosoms and hair pulling and ripping off shirts and twisting ruby red nipples till you scream in pain.

Oh, please put it in a science fiction setting.

Thank you.

garage mahal said...

McCain and Palin are getting trounced because they are truly awful candidates talking about shit nobody cares about. Calling him a Hussein Terrorist just signals to the public they aren't serious especially if McCain can't even confront Obama face-to-face at a debate on it.

integrity said...

Alex said...
Funny. Unfortunately in my youth I was at church 5 times a week(twice sunday, once wednesday, youth group twice). I also attended a radically right-wing(no makeup for girls, hair above collar for guys-or you were sent home, and many were)christian school from 4th to 10th grade. I am very aware of the scene of which I speak.

3:11 PM

Correction: We are very aware of your anti-Christian bigotry.



I am more anti any religious dogma that does not promote peace and harmony, which very few of them do(although they claim to).

My family went to a southern baptist church, but I was permitted a few times to go to an evangelical church on Long Island called the Upper Room that absolutely rocked musically. Everyone dancing in the aisles, a really incredible choir. It was more like a club(disco) than a church and I really loved that aspect of it. The speaking in tongues didn't freak me out either. Stop trying to paint everyone in a way that fits your ideological box. Very little is black and white. The discipline of religion is also something that turns my mind on, like the military.

Trooper York said...

Garage you are never going to get a tag if you keep bringing that boring shit man. Breasts, man talk about breasts if you want a front page dude.

Simon said...

Alex said...
"In the end this election comes down to this political reality: ¶ The American people want the government to save them."

This election may serve as a test of H.L. Menken's proposition that the common man knows what is good for him, and deserves to get it - good and hard. Alas that all of us must pay the price for this mistake.

integrity said...
"[I]n my youth[,] I was at church 5 times a week.... I also attended a ... christian school from 4th to 10th grade. I am very aware of the scene of which I speak."

Unless you're in the 11th grade, which your writing and general deportment here don't permit me to rule out, your evidence seems a touch outdated.

Steven said...

And JFK . . . that's the guy who screwed up a military intervention in Cuba; almost started a nuclear war because he couldn't figure out how to do back-channel negotiations; whose almost starting a nuclear war got the reformist leader of the Soviet Union overthrown in a palace coup, perhaps prolonging the Cold War another two decades; and ramped up our commitment to Vietnam, right?

Seriously. Worst President ever, worse than Buchanan, Hoover, Carter . . . you name it. But, hey, he was young, stylish, and could give a good speech, so who cares that he was a total incompetent who almost destroyed Western Civilization and left the U.S. worse off than it was at the beginning of his Presidency?

blake said...

Steven--

I always favored Black Canary, mah-self.

Trooper York said...

No one holds a candle to Catwoman. Seriously. Every movie babe wants to be Catwoman. The list of beautiful women who have played that sexy pussy include Julie Newmar, Eartha Kitt, Lee Meriwether, Michele Pfeiffer and Hallie Berry. Now that's sexy. Meow.

bjm said...

Palin's selection has opened a door to a new, broader feminism - but I really want to know whether you disagree that said door will slam shut if Obama's win emboldens her detractors?

Feminism as we knew it is dead.

Let me explain, I came of majority when women weren't encouraged in or were barred from upper management, practises and partnerships in law, medicine, science and business. The nascent feminine movement wasn't much help, but our "Rosie the riveter" mothers taught us to use the old boy's club to our advantage and we soldiered on.

Friedan's brand of feminism served a purpose in the 60's and 70's, as did unionism before it. Early feminism allowed women to carve their own toe-hold to climb around glass ceilings.

However, feminism began to believe it's press clippings, paling around with the hate America crowd, growing more enamored of and held hostage by Liberal dogma.

Feminism became a middle-aged cougar stalking the media for a hook up while it's threadbare rhetoric grew more irrelevant with each generation.

Proof of feminism's success is that so many of us no longer identify with the simplistic tag "women" but by our chosen roles.

I recently gave a copy of "The Feminine Mystic" and "The Obstacle Race" to a friend's 18 yr old. We had a long discussion and may as well have been discussing the merits of whalebone corsets.

She is appreciative of the history, but gently dismissive of entitlement-based feminism as it never occurs to her that her path requires more than drive and intelligence.

We did well if this is the new norm for young women.

However, Palin's ordeal-by-MSM and Hillary's humiliation indicates that Liberal Feminism is a shopworn premise in scuffed f*ck me pumps nursing a drink at the end of the relevancy bar.

integrity said...

Synova said...
OH!

You're talking teen aged hormones in full fledged ignition... *those* church flirts.

Okay, got it.

Can't see how Palin fits into that but, sure.



Have you ever attended a church where everyone socializes in the church lobby after the service? Men and women talk to one another, and a sexy vixen like Ms. Palin flirts with other women's husbands or boyfriends. The wife or girlfriend sees this from across the lobby while she is talking to someone else. The wife or girlfriend as a rule comes to loathe the female that has flirted with their husband or boyfriend.

Are you trying to say married men don't get hard-ons for sexy women like Sarah Palin? I'm not sure what your point is, but these are fairly normal human dynamics regardless of whether at a church or the bowling alley.

I think you may be suggesting that married men are like eunichs, they are not.

Synova said...

BTW, Paglia's Amazon Warrior thing aside, of course Palin is sexy. She's a very beautiful woman, fit and happy.

But like that person Althouse quoted a couple weeks ago, and which I can not find back no matter what... Palin has committed the sin of, to say it in a less crude way, Oh, forget less crude, appearing f**kable without appearing as if she wants to f*ck... or something very similar.

m00se said...

Trooper York:

Sorry - correction.

No one can hold a candle to Julie Newmar as Catwoman.

Period.

AJ Lynch said...

I think I will start going to church again.

save_the_rustbelt said...

"That the macho RUSTY, with his champion athleticism and working-class cred, can so amiably cradle babies and care for children is a huge step forward in American sexual symbolism."

I set the standard years ago, just never got any credit.

But us hunky sensitive guys are not jealous of the younger generation.

integrity said...

But like that person Althouse quoted a couple weeks ago, and which I can not find back no matter what... Palin has committed the sin of, to say it in a less crude way, Oh, forget less crude, appearing f**kable without appearing as if she wants to f*ck... or something very similar.






Come on, she presents herself as a sex kitten. I think it was the day after her debate, her hair was down and she was presenting sex personified from head to toe. Who is anyone kidding? F_cking has a lot to do with her appeal to men.

Synova said...

Integrity... it might have something to do with being secure, or not.

Of course men notice women. Of course some women flirt with everyone, because they don't know how to interact otherwise.

Where you lose me is in the notion that Palin fits some stereotype of church hussy (I'll let you know if it comes to me Trooper, but if not I'll keep in mind the sort of thing I ought to work into an SF novel to keep it interesting.) I've got all sorts of "church" people to draw on but you're not talking about anyone I *know*.

And believe me... the red sequined slut dress at church was shocking but the girl wearing it was there to worship God. It probably caused half the horny young service-men there to miss most of the sermon, but should I want to tear her eyes out or should I have compassion on her?

Donn said...

Have you ever attended a church where everyone socializes in the church lobby after the service? Men and women talk to one another, and a sexy vixen like Ms. Palin flirts with other women's husbands or boyfriends. The wife or girlfriend sees this from across the lobby while she is talking to someone else. The wife or girlfriend as a rule comes to loathe the female that has flirted with their husband or boyfriend.

Some Sundays I attend a church with several thousand attendees, and which has a very large lobby, yet I cannot recall the above scenario ever taking place. While I wouldn't deny it never takes place, I can confidently state that it's so far from the norm as to be virtually non-existent.

And further, I don't see Palin as the type of woman that would fit this scenario anyway, and I think it says more about the person holding such a view, than about Palin herself.

Roger J. said...

Integrity: you got some real sexual issues going there son. There are 1-900 numbers that could possibly give you a little relief. Or maybe a full body massage and little hand relief from your local steam and cream. You got more projection going on than in an IMAX studio.

integrity said...

Where you lose me is in the notion that Palin fits some stereotype of church hussy


Hussy? I'm not suggesting that she would sleep with them, just flirt. The femme fatale does not always use actual sex as her weapon. My experience was in a small church(200-250 members) with a small lobby. I've never attended a mega-church, therefore my point of view may very well be out of date(although I think most churches around this country are still fairly small). I'm talking about a smaller church where everbody knows almost everybody else.

rhhardin said...

Tyrrell on Betty Friedan excerpt

Synova said...

If she's just flirting and I know she's just flirting, what's the problem?

I've been married for 21 years and I'm just not the jealous type.

Simon said...

integrity said...
"But like that person Althouse quoted a couple weeks ago"

She was quoting a post collecting 'The 20 Most Obnoxious Anti-Palin Quotes So Far' that was in turn quoting Amanda Marcotte.

Simon said...

... And as I said in the comments of that post, it was "hilarious that Marcotte - a putative feminist - can't seem to wrap her head around a non-sexual reason for men to like a female politician."

integrity said...

Roger J. said...
Integrity: you got some real sexual issues going there son. There are 1-900 numbers that could possibly give you a little relief. Or maybe a full body massage and little hand relief from your local steam and cream. You got more projection going on than in an IMAX studio.



No, my dad is married to a woman who flirted with him in the church lobby and became my babysitter and several years later my stepmother and still is. My parents divorced over the affair.

Projection based on experiences that I have watched with my own eyes. And there were a lot of other scenes just like that in our church and my christian school. Including teachers screwing students and later marrying them. Do you want me to give the exact names of the people and churches. Who could make this shit up, I lived it.

I have experienced life.

Alex said...

integrity - keep digging son.

Roger J. said...

Simon: you made your point a bit more elgantly than did I in my advice to Integrity.

Synova said...

"These brave women were
trapped with a vast expanse of desolate hours stretching out to
that remote time when the kids returned from school and the
idiot traipsed in with his evening paper. It was insanity, and
still the infernal washing machine kept vibrating in the background.
Soon the maid would be emptying it and feeding it,
emptying it and feeding it."

GAWD, that sounds like being a Dependant Wife at Clark Air Base. Couldn't even get a job because they had to go to Filipinos by law.

Freidan solved the problem with feminist revolution.

I solved the problem by enlisting.

;0)

Synova said...

Thanks for finding that back, Simon. I looked and looked.

Roger J. said...

Integrity: you have experienced life. OMG that is so fucking impressive. Holy shit son--you mean there's no one else on this blog that has experienced life? You think you are the ONLY one that experienced life and your family broke up because of some church lobby seduction? I am sorry about that. I am reasonably sure that every other commenter here as their own demons. Its just that they keep them within and do not use them to flog other issues.

Synova said...

Poor women, of course, weren't sitting around bored, frustrated and purposeless... they were the maid changing the laundry.

Trooper York said...

Where they wearing like a French Maids outfit?

Trooper York said...

That's the only thing the French ever did right.

Well the toast and the fries but that's it.

integrity said...

Roger J. said...
Integrity: you have experienced life. OMG that is so fucking impressive. Holy shit son--you mean there's no one else on this blog that has experienced life? You think you are the ONLY one that experienced life and your family broke up because of some church lobby seduction? I am sorry about that. I am reasonably sure that every other commenter here as their own demons. Its just that they keep them within and do not use them to flog other issues.



Discussing personal experiences in relation to issues is bad??? Isn't that how our minds are formed-through personal experience. Would you prefer that someone not tell you their own experiences so that you can see how their P.O.V. has been formed?

Nothing I spoke of is a demon or negative, just life. No apology necessary from you or them. I'm a liberal.

Should I judge my dad or my stepmom? They are human(aside from their republicanism).

Donn said...

That's the only thing the French ever did right.

I can see someone is not a wine drinker!

Trooper York said...

Italian, Spanish, South American, Napa Valley and Australian vintages allow us to never give any money to cheese eating surrender monkeys.

blake said...

It probably caused half the horny young service-men there to miss most of the sermon, but should I want to tear her eyes out or should I have compassion on her?

Or should you have compassion on the service-men and consider that she might have been doing a service?

;-)

Roger J. said...

Integrity: you were doing pretty well there until your coda. You gave it away. Look--sorry I got overly aggressive; we all deal with our own demons. In my view you extrapolated a very significant single instance that affected your life and projected it on to someone who wasnt there and didnt do it (Govenor Palin). You don't know her and have never interacted with her. You really have no idea whats she's like. Thats basically very judgmental and very unfair. You tarred her with the failings of your parents. Sorry about them, but it Gov Palin has nothing to do with it. You have made the personal political, IMO.

Respond if you like, but I am through with this interaction.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Coming in late to this thread. I agree with Synova and Victoria.

Palin is a feminist in the mold of the non elite urban Democrat party feminists. Feminists that want to define who we should be and decry and destroy any, like Palin, who don't toe the party line.

Palin is a feminist in the manner of my mother, who worked in what was considered a man's occupation and who never lost her femininity or felt less of a "successful" woman by having children and a family. My mother was the kind of woman who knew what she wanted, got what she wanted, didn't whine, play the victim, went through life with enjoyment and a smile and enriched the lives of those around her.

The feminists today look down on the multi tasking women like Palin who can have a career, have children, have religion, who love respect and admire men and who don't adhere to the mantra of abortion for all.

I just hope that I have lived up to my mother's example. What a fine example Palin is setting for her own children.

Yea yea yea... I know. Her daughter is pregnant. B.F.D. as we used to say in high school. Many successful and happy marriages began unexpectedly. As the saying goes. "It takes 9 months to have a baby, BUT that first one can come at any time".

It isn't what happens to you in life that shows your character, it is how you deal with it.

Simon said...

Trooper, I'm not aware of any decent non-French beaujolais, but I'm open to suggestions.

integrity said...
"Should I judge my dad or my stepmom? They are human(aside from their republicanism)."

Frighteningly, one cannot be sure that this was meant to be fascetious.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Integrity said"Should I judge my dad or my stepmom? They are human(aside from their republicanism)."

Haven't you already done this? In addition you seem to want to judge everyone through the prism of your personal and possibly painful experiences.

You are correct. Our experiences are what make us. However, the ability to be objective and learn from our experiences makes us better. Stewing on past injustices and grievances make you weak. Projection is a psychological illness.

Kirk Parker said...

Trooper,

Washington producing some pretty good wines, too. Don't ignore us just because we're on the wrong coast! :-)

dr kill said...

Ah, Integrity, a sad story you're telling, and no doubt true as well. I almost feel like giving you a genuine, everything-will-be -alright manly hug, the kind for which I'm world famous. I say almost, because you seem almost human today. Cool.

And don't forget, all you other manly types out there, no need to buy fancy French lingerie for your girl friends. Buy American from Lee-Lee's ta-ta shop. Mention Trooper's name for an internet discount.

This election is over, make your plans accordingly. But it has been fun to see a woman representative of the women I know and love and respect(the next morning as well) have a moment in the current American dialogue.

integrity said...

integrity said...
"Should I judge my dad or my stepmom? They are human(aside from their republicanism)."

Frighteningly, one cannot be sure that this was meant to be fascetious.



Yes, it was meant to be fecetious.

Pogo said...

I battle my own inner demons. Curiously, they are two macaque monkeys named Yatchan and Fukuchan that bring me hot towels and beer, all in my head.

They are demons because I rarely have any soya beans lying around my amygdala to dole out as tips, and they tend to get pretty mad about that. Much poo gets flung, mentally.

I would gladly trade that for seduction by the church lady, especially if she were to serve beer and hot towels, and wear a French maid's uniform. I wouldn't be too pushy about the beer either, hint hint.

But to each his own.

knox said...

Palin is attacked precisely because she's gone after the media and because democrats realize how dangerous it is for republicans to have a strong, female leader.

She'll come back, and next time she won't have McCain dragging her down.

Michael McNeil said...

Yes, it was meant to be fecetious.

As in feces? It was shitty all right.

But you still haven't answered whether it was facetious.

Michael McNeil said...

“That's the only thing the French ever did right.”
I can see someone is not a wine drinker!


I have nothing against the French. They now have one of the most pro-American presidents in their history, their policy with regards to nuclear power is far more sensible than our own (about 80% of electrical power in France comes from nukes, as opposed to only 20% in the U.S.), while they make good wine to boot.

However, California wines have won quite a number of “blind” tasting tests with (even French) wine connoisseurs vis-a-vis French ones.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Palin has committed the sin of, to say it in a less crude way, Oh, forget less crude, appearing f**kable without appearing as if she wants to f*ck... or something very similar.Come on, she presents herself as a sex kitten. I think it was the day after her debate, her hair was down and she was presenting sex personified from head to toe. Who is anyone kidding? F_cking has a lot to do with her appeal to men.

You know, I thought Michael won the prize for being the stupidest person on this blog but you have definitely hit the grand slam. Talk about projecting your hate. Why not just call her a whore and be done with it?

Roger J is right. You have some serious issues. Get help.

knox said...

You have some serious issues.

Loves "women" like Madonna. Hates real women.

And I'm not one to throw out that charge lightly.

Donn said...

However, California wines have won quite a number of “blind” tasting tests with (even French) wine connoisseurs vis-a-vis French ones.

Did you see "Bottle Shock?" Very good movie.

However, as a former employee in the wine industry, and as a person who drinks primarily California wines, I can say that most wine experts would agree that French wine is still considered the best in the world.

Roger J. said...

Donn--I would love to have a thread that debated the relative greatness of wine. don't want to thread hijack, but perhaps we could persuade our lovely hostess to set aside a wine thread where we can do battle on this really significant issue! :) en garde sir

integrity said...

Michael McNeil said...
Yes, it was meant to be fecetious.

As in feces? It was shitty all right.

But you still haven't answered whether it was facetious.



It was meant to be facetious. Corrected.

Terry said...

Isn't it funny that feminists used to decry the male dominated society for slapping down strong women and not giving them a chance?

Now, that role has been taken over by progressives. Affirmative action at work.

integrity said...

knox said...
You have some serious issues.

Loves "women" like Madonna. Hates real women.

And I'm not one to throw out that charge lightly.



Real women don't try to dictate and limit other women's reproductive rights. The women you call real women I call misogynists and female impersonators.

And yes, Madonna is a real woman. I can name a lot more, and they aren't famous.

Whether right-wing people like it or not, there aren't many city folk that have bought the Palin as feminist meme. She is as far from a feminist as one can get.

Simon said...

knox said...
"[Palin will] come back, and next time she won't have McCain dragging her down"

No; instead she'll have a four year campaign waged against her by the national media and the Democratic party who recognize the threat she poses (as you say, they "realize how dangerous it is for republicans to have a strong, female leader") and understand that she is a likely future contender. That gives them an incredibly strong incentive to do whatever they can - manufacture whatever lies they need - to preempt her run in '12.

Besides, the media must surely understand that they have permanently dishonered themslves; having dropped the mask, they can't credibly hope to set it back into place. so what incentive is there for them to try to pretend again? In for a dime in fo a dollar, as they say.

blake said...

Real women don't try to dictate and limit other women's reproductive rights. The women you call real women I call misogynists and female impersonators.

Once again, I hasten to point out that it is women and not men who keep the abortion issue in play over the years. (This according to people at CARAL/NARAL I've worked with.)

For a man, abortion is an easy out. For a woman, who may have experienced pregnancy, the reality of the living organism is not at all abstract.

If it were up to men--when it was up to men, I hasten to point out--it was a non-issue. Women had their emmenagogues and men stayed out of it.

So, by your standards, most women aren't women at all. And if you can live with that logic then, yes, you are a "liberal".

Donn said...

Real women don't try to dictate and limit other women's reproductive rights.

Personally, I think *real* women protect the rights of the fetus.

knox said...

The women you call real women I call misogynists and female impersonators.

And yes, Madonna is a real woman. I can name a lot more, and they aren't famous.

Whether right-wing people like it or not, there aren't many city folk that have bought the Palin as feminist meme. She is as far from a feminist as one can get.


thanks for proving my point.

By the way; I put "real" in quotes in front of Madonna because we don't know who she really is. She's a performer, a personna, an image.

People who imbue her with any meaning or virtue might as well trump up some fictional character.

Think she's great? Big Fucking Deal. She's fiction.

knox said...

AND she's anorexic and adopts babies from Africa. i.e., she's incredibly narcissistic and shallow.

Steven said...

The thing about the other comic-book women is that their creators never said anything like "Wonder Woman is psychological propaganda for the new type of woman who should, I believe, rule the world," or that the character was designed to have "all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

Michael McNeil said...

It was meant to be facetious. Corrected.

Glad to hear it.

blake said...

Actually, Wonder Woman was precisely that, Steven, if I recall the history correctly.

Comic books (like so many other pop culture items) were being blamed for juvenile delinquency, and the crusade was being spearheaded by a psychologist.

Comic publisher M.C. Gaines knew just how to handle that: Have the psychologist make his own superhero character and comic book line.

Marston had a "thing" about strong women: Note the dominatrix overtones and the use of the "magic lasso" to restrain men. It became quite overt (and really inapprorpiate) before he died (or was removed).

blake said...

Oh, Steven, I see I misunderstood what you wrote.

You probably knew all that history.

My bad.

Wheeler's said...

i read that and threw up in the back of my mouth a little.
How about it Ann?
Palin has been used by McCain as a fresh horse for a poll bump, as a bot programmed to spew GOP talking points, and now as an attack dog for the stuff McCain is too gutless to say himself.
Palin has been EXPLOITED by the republican party.
She has no autonomy, does she Ann?

I agree with Brooks.
Palin is a fatal cancer on the Republican party.
I dont think I can respect Camille anymore.
It is, quite frankly, delicious to watch the GOP fracture along the IQ-faultline.

integrity said...

knox said...
The women you call real women I call misogynists and female impersonators.

And yes, Madonna is a real woman. I can name a lot more, and they aren't famous.

Whether right-wing people like it or not, there aren't many city folk that have bought the Palin as feminist meme. She is as far from a feminist as one can get.

thanks for proving my point.

By the way; I put "real" in quotes in front of Madonna because we don't know who she really is. She's a performer, a personna, an image.

People who imbue her with any meaning or virtue might as well trump up some fictional character.

Think she's great? Big Fucking Deal. She's fiction.



Her public persona has embodied the ideas of liberals for the most part, that's what counts(and is perceived to be real) if you are a performer. Yes, privately she could be conservative and her public liberalism could be a bid to keep her fanbase intact. But she has imbued her persona with meaning through her political point of view, that is what artists and entertainers do.

I assume you are talking about all performers whether their public image is left or right.

Michael McNeil said...

Whether right-wing people like it or not, there aren't many city folk that have bought the Palin as feminist meme. She is as far from a feminist as one can get.

No doubt many women agree with you, but many more emphatically do not.

Just three days ago, for instance, the President of the Los Angeles Chapter (note: “city folk”) of the National Organization for Women: NOW (note: these are feminists, and hardly ”right-wing”: this is L.A.!) endorsed Sarah Palin for V.P., declaring “America, this is what a feminist looks like.”

For any number of other examples, I suggest perusing discussion threads at HillaryClintonForum.net.

Henry said...

Returning to this post all I have to add is that some of my favorite affordable wines are Malbecs from Argentina.

David said...

I doubt Palin gives a flying fuck about whether she is a feminist. Which of course makes her a feminist.

Michael McNeil said...

I've certainly enjoyed quite a few Portuguese wines, including Vinho Verde, “green” (young) wine.

integrity said...

Michael McNeil said...
Whether right-wing people like it or not, there aren't many city folk that have bought the Palin as feminist meme. She is as far from a feminist as one can get.

No doubt many women agree with you, but many more emphatically do not.

Just three days ago, for instance, the President of the Los Angeles Chapter (note: “city folk”) of the National Organization for Women: NOW (note: these are feminists, and hardly ”right-wing”: this is L.A.!) endorsed Sarah Palin for V.P., declaring “America, this is what a feminist looks like.”

For any number of other examples, I suggest perusing discussion threads at HillaryClintonForum.net.



They all hate Obama for taking the supposed coronation away from Hillary. They will say or do anything to hurt him, including supporting Palin. Hillary herself praised Palin a few days ago.

I think the only way to know or have some idea is to see what happens on election day, maybe I am just surrounded by women who are not N.O.W. members and have yet to see the light. I have heard nothing but disdain and disgust regarding Palin being termed a feminist from both Obama supporters and former Clinton supporters(then again, I do not know any women who were for Clinton and are now voting for McCain). I have to issue the caveat that I live in the Hollywwod Hills, which is probably not the best place to try to gauge the P.O.V. of the women of greater Los Angeles. My area is very liberal, where I work in the Inland Empire is a different story altogether and contains many Palin fans. But that's suburban, not city.

We'll see on the 4th, you may be right on this. Those exit polls will be very interesting indeed.

Simon said...

Wheeler's said...
"I agree with [David] Brooks ... It is, quite frankly, delicious to watch the GOP fracture along the IQ-faultline."

Brooks has spent most of the last two years fawning over Obama. He likes to thnk that he represents the "smart" wing of the part, but he doesn't; he represents the wing of the Republican party that hasn't voted for a Republican in twenty years. He represents those "Republicans" who every election call C-SPAN's Republican caller line and proclaim that although a lifelong Republican, they're voting for the Democratic candidate. There have been many columns of Brooks' that I've agreed with over the last few years, but only because I'm a moderate. None that I can think of actually represent an identifiably conservative viewpoint; his claim, in reviewing Sullivan's book, that he and Sullivan are both Oakeshottians was very, very silly. Oakeshott would find that proposition laughable.

Smart Republicans are perfectly happy with Palin. We don't have the inferiority complex that makes us desperately crave the approval of everyone in sight, particularly foreigners - a hand-me-down of the left. Palin isn't anti-intellectual; the very idea of it is silly. She may be more populist than some of us would prefer, but that's the mood of the electorate and must be tolerated.

LoafingOaf said...

Paglia speculates that maybe Palin has some American Indian blood, because of her "strong facial contours", and because Paglia has worked with two "celebrity icons" with American Indian blood who have had similar energy and hyper-alertness billowing out of them.

Is Paglia always so obessed with race, blood, and ancestry? How un-American.

How Sarah Palin fits in with Paglia's ideal of an "Amazon warrior" is all well and good, but what is being put before me as a voter is whether McCain selected someone actually qualified and fit to be Vice President and potentially President just weeks after she arrived on the national stage. Paglia concedes that Palin is lacking in policy knowledge and hopes Palin gains such knowledge over the next eight years.

Well, that concedes what I said about Palin, which is that she very well may one day be someone who should run for high national office, down the line, but to ask me to vote for her now is to ask me to be extremely reckless with my county in a time of war and economic crisis. If Palin had wanted to be in such a high office come January, she should've entered the GOP primaries a year ago and spent a longer time preparing herself on the issues. What she spews right now doesn't really mean much to me because she's mostly just saying what McCain's people are telling her to say.

LoafingOaf said...

And what's with Drudge always, always linking to everything she writes?

They're fans of each other. Paglia has written extensively about her love of Drudge.

Simon said...

integrity said...
"They all hate Obama for taking the supposed coronation away from Hillary. They will say or do anything to hurt him, including supporting Palin. Hillary herself praised Palin a few days ago."

A commendable attitude that more Clinton supporters would do well to adopt. What matters, however, is how they vote. It doesn't matter if you vote with much or little enthusiasm, or even if you hold your nose. You are nothing but a walking ballot to Obama. As long as you go the right way, whatever reservations you have are meaningless.

Simon said...

To any politician, mind you. Not just Obama, I don't mean to single him out. This cute idea that your opinion matters... Please. Politicians don't want your opinion. They want your vote. They're only interested in your opinion to the extent that feigning such produces your vote. No politician has ever walked away from a frank exchange of views with a voter where he found out their opinion in detail but the voter said they were voting for their opponent and said "gee, that was a good investment of time."

bridgecross said...

...debate last week with Joe Biden (whose conspiratorial smiles with moderator Gwen Ifill were outrageous and condescending toward his opponent)...

Tell me she didn't just jab Biden for his speech impediment. You know, Camille, that lopsided smile Biden has used to suppress stuttering since his teens? Oh, but no, he must be flirting with the moderator. Right.

integrity said...

Michael McNeil said...
Whether right-wing people like it or not, there aren't many city folk that have bought the Palin as feminist meme. She is as far from a feminist as one can get.

No doubt many women agree with you, but many more emphatically do not.

Just three days ago, for instance, the President of the Los Angeles Chapter (note: “city folk”) of the National Organization for Women: NOW (note: these are feminists, and hardly ”right-wing”: this is L.A.!) endorsed Sarah Palin for V.P., declaring “America, this is what a feminist looks like.”

For any number of other examples, I suggest perusing discussion threads at HillaryClintonForum.net.




I didn't go to the link before. You posted the funniest thing today. N.O.W. is endorsing Obama, and that woman did NOT endorse her for V.P. She complimented her.

I read your post and thought-what the hell is going on here with N.O.W.? That really was funny, nice try though.

Do you cheat when playing board games too?

Michael McNeil said...

They all hate Obama for taking the supposed coronation away from Hillary. They will say or do anything to hurt him, including supporting Palin.

Quite wrong. The Hillary supporters in question object to Obama not for the foregoing caricature of a rationale (nor do they “hate” O.), but, in the first place, because of the torrent of sexist slime that was targeted first at Hillary by rabid Obama supporters and the Obama campaign itself. (Plus, after going through that with Hillary, they can readily perceive that that blast of sliming has merely been redirected since then at Sarah Palin.)

Even after Hillary's loss in the primaries, however, quite a number of these Hillary supporters were still quite willing to support Obama providing he would reach out to them halfway in return; and in talks with O.'s campaign proffered their support if he would only agree to appoint as many women as men into his cabinet (no doubt a horrible crimping — not — of Obama's freedom of action, considering that Bill Clinton very nearly accomplished as much himself) — but which in any case Obama arrogantly refused to do.

That same group of Hillary supporters also met with McCain, requesting in his case, among other things, that he select a woman as his running mate. Unlike Obama, McCain listened to their request respectfully, discussed Palin with them as a possibility in this regard (whom they enthusiastically acclaimed), and then acted on it.

As a result, the Hillary supporters' rejection of Obama falls into the grand old American tradition of “throw the bums out.”

Writer Lynette Long, one of those who had consulted with Obama's campaign and met with McCain, put it this way:

“Yes, policy is important, but who decides and delivers that policy is even more important. Children incorporate many of their perceptions about gender by age 5. Little girls won't understand if Sarah Palin is pro-life or pro-choice, believes in gun control or is a member of the NRA, but they will know the vice president of the United States is a girl — and that alone will alter their perceptions of themselves.

“I have given my loyalty to the Democratic Party for decades. My party, which is comprised primarily of women, has not put a woman on a presidential ticket for 24 years. My party stood silently by as Hillary Clinton was eviscerated by the mainstream media. My party and its candidate gave their tacit approval for the attacks on Mrs. Clinton (and, consequently, women in general).

“I can vote for my party and its candidates, which have demonstrated a blatant disrespect for women and a fundamental lack of integrity. Or I can vote for the Republican ticket, which has heard our concerns and put a woman on the ticket, but with which I fundamentally don't agree on most issues.

“Right now, for me, gender trumps everything else. If Democratic women wait for the perfect woman to come along, we will never elect a woman. I will vote for McCain-Palin. I urge other women to do the same. I promise to be the first person knocking on her door if Roe v. Wade or any other legislation that goes against the rights of women is threatened. But in Governor Palin, I find a woman of integrity, who not only talks the talk but walks the walk. I can work with that. I will work with that.”

Palladian said...

David Brooks? Haha.

You think the New York Times would let an actual conservative into their building, let alone publish their opinions? Please!

Michael McNeil said...

I didn't go to the link before. You posted the funniest thing today. N.O.W. is endorsing Obama, and that woman did NOT endorse her for V.P. She complimented her.

I read your post and thought-what the hell is going on here with N.O.W.? That really was funny, nice try though.

Do you cheat when playing board games too?


So, you're calling me a liar? Wow, I only suspected it before, but you really are a piece of feces.

In the first place, I never said that NOW as an organization, or even that particular chapter, was endorsing Palin. If you can't read English, that's not my problem.

Beyond that, however, the President of the Los Angeles Chapter of NOW, Shelly Mandel, most assuredly did endorse Sarah Palin, just the other day. Mandel announced it at a McCain-Palin rally, right in front of her, as numerous news articles as well as CNN footage explicitly recognize as being an “endorsement” of Palin.

Here's the CNN video of that event.

Michael McNeil said...

Palladian says:
David Brooks? Haha.
You think the New York Times would let an actual conservative into their building, let alone publish their opinions? Please!


The New York Times did recently bring Bill Kristol — editor of the Weekly Standard — aboard as a regular columnist (his weekly piece appears there every Monday). Kristol most assuredly is “an actual conservative.”

I agree that he's quite alone there, however, so in that sense you're right.

Kirk Parker said...

Loafing,

"what is being put before me as a voter is whether McCain selected someone actually qualified and fit to be Vice President and potentially President just weeks after she arrived on the national stage."

Well, all those decades in the Senate didn't do much for Biden, did it?

william said...

Just saw Palin's interview tonight with Greta. It was awful. She didn't answer about half of Greta's question (she responded with Obama's tax plan at the question "what reforms will you/McCain initiate?"). Greta didn't follow-up to any of her non-answers.

I was a big Palin supporter originally, but she's blowing it even with this softball interview.

Michael McNeil said...

Folks might enjoy Chris Muir's Day by Day cartoon from a couple of days ago, entitled “The Sarah Chronicles” (here's the whole page) — a takeoff on the Terminator movies of Arnold Schwarzenegger's follow-on series “The Sara Chronicles.”

Synova said...

Can we please be more careful with the multiple quotes that no one can follow? And who the heck said this?

Real women don't try to dictate and limit other women's reproductive rights. The women you call real women I call misogynists and female impersonators.

Or should I say... what douche bag said this?

A real MAN doesn't try to limit my freedoms either, no? He's not a Real Man if he thinks he has any sort of right to pass a law that another man can't have sex with his wife because it's his right or beat the tar out of his kids if he thinks they need it.

And a Real Woman can't favor any restriction on infanticide, because Real Women reserve the right to kill their fetuses and JUST LIKE a man who is the king of his own castle, it's simply wrong for anyone to presume to say what goes on between him and the people under his care. Same with Real Women. Because in the end, your Rights depend on WHERE YOU LIVE. The person who brought you in to this world has the right to take you out.

SCREW THAT.

Moron.

I can respect someone who disagrees on principle that a fetus is not a human, but to not just disagree but present the disagreement as forfeiting membership in womanhood itself?

THIS IS WHY I AM NOT AND NEVER WILL BE A FEMINIST.

Paglia is 100% right.

In a time when not just feminist identity but your identity as a female is judged on the SINGLE fact of a willingness to kill the unborn (and human or not, they most definitely start out alive, and end up dead) then feminism will die... or at the least turn into a bitter shriveled and childless crone.

And good riddance.

Michael McNeil said...

Sarah Palin is a member of a group called “Feminists for Life,” so she obviously considers herself some kind of feminist.