September 30, 2008

"Dinosaur-human relations are not, to the best of my knowledge, part of the bailout debate and its partisanship..."

"... otherwise known as the subjects of this thread."

Said Freeman Hunt, in that thread yesterday that went awry.



Thanks to Palladian for the LOLdino. [UPDATE: The link to the picture Palladian had sent went dead, and I'm replacing it with what I think it was.]

Now, did Sarah Palin say that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time"? I don't know, but it's such a charming, distracting controversy, compared to the -- what is it? -- impending depression.

ADDED: A little theme music:



(Suggested by Pogo.)

224 comments:

1 – 200 of 224   Newer›   Newest»
MadisonMan said...

I heard a report this morning that McCain blamed the Democrats for the failure to pass. Obama told Democrats and Republicans to work harder.

Don't know if it's true, but I think it says a lot if it is.

Talked to my Dad last night. He's wondering what's going to happen to his annuity bought through AIG that was providing about $800/month for them. The State Pension Fund (PA) is heavily invested in the Stock Market (I wager most state retirement funds are) and he's wondering about that too. There's still social security, as he says, and as far as I know they have no debts and a paid-off house and reasonably low taxes (by Madison standards). So I guess my old parents will do okay.

Jack said...

If only the Republicans had succeeded in pillaging Social Security and transfering all of the funds to Wall Street investment bankers, as Bush and Congressional Republicans wanted.

That would have been awesome.

erniecu73 said...

Ha! Yeah, anything that can be thrown out there in favor of The One (PBUH) and in "detriment" of his competitors will be thrown. No matter how silly it is, and no matter the source.

The funny part is that I know and work with several people who share those beliefs. Most of them are...*gasp* DEMOCRATS. A significant number of them are young people, in their twenties. Yes, they will vote for The Messiah (PBUH) and Crazy Uncle Joe, not McCain/Palin.

The point is silly, but then again, what else could one expect. Good morning, Profesor Althouse!

Pogo said...

Hey Mr. Dinosaur
You really couldn’t ask for more
You were God’s favourite creature
But you didn’t have a future

Walking in your footsteps

Hey mighty brontosaurus
Don’t you have a lesson for us
You thought your rule would always last

Walking in your footsteps

Fifty million years ago
They walked upon the planet so
They live in a museum
It’s the only place you’ll see um.

Walking in your footsteps….

AllenS said...

I can't say for sure that dinosaurs walked the Earth with humans, but I do know that Godzilla raised holy h*ll with the Japanese.

Rich B said...

Why hasn't anyone asked Joe Biden about this? After all, I have seen dinosaurs and humans on my television set. We know that they both liked football. Based on the fossil evidence. And old videos.

erniecu73 said...

MadisonMan,

In all fairness, there are two statements on their campaign website, and while yes, there is some blame being swung out at Obama andd his allies, they are also calling for bipartisan cooperation, and for Congress to go back to the drawing table on this issue.

As per the previous topic on this blog, beware of what you hear.

Greetings.

The Drill SGT said...

Jack said...
If only the Republicans had succeeded in pillaging Social Security and transfering all of the funds


Good God, the GOP found out where the SS Trust fund vault is under the Family compound in Hyannisport MA?

The Cheney Undergroound will assemble a raid team made up of ex-Seals and they'll loot that place in a millisecond. Those tons of gold bars (made from the fillings of old people) will be loaded nasty diesel dump trucks and headed for the Wyoming sanctuary.

bearbee said...

American politicians view this crisis as a joke to be used for leveraging votes in the next congressional election.

erniecu73 said...

Pogo, where is moi drug (pronounced dr-oo-g), мой друг, tovarich PogoПОССУМ?

erniecu73 said...

Men in shorts???

Prfessor, I just saw that new tag...care to explain the relationship between dinosaurs and men in shorts?

Dave said...

An anti-Palin blogger says Palin believes dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time, and the LAT runs it without any note in the article that they attempted to contact the Palin campaign to verify any of this.

Fantastic journalism LAT.

AlphaLiberal said...

I pulled up that thread over breakfast and thought the conservatives came off as a bunch of playground bullies taunting Michael.

But now that there's a dinothread, yeah, it matters if a VP candidate thinks humans and dinosaurs were here at the same time, a few thousand years ago.

We live in an advanced, technological, scientific society. We need to compete with other nations on our scientific advancements, we rely on scientific advances to improve our quality of life and avoid really bad energy crises.

So we need leaders who know shit from shinola. Yes, it's important they not be superstitious ignorants.

Maybe if you're Mayor of Wasilla or even just Governor of Alaska it's not important. But as a national leader, and perhaps President, it's important to the lives of the American people.

SteveR said...

So what part of the money I've put into the Social Security System over the last 30+ years doing better than the stock market over that same time?

Oh you mean that thing they send me every year telling me how much money I'll get paid?

Wow Jack! Do you have a clue where that money will come from? Awesome!

ricpic said...

Let the dinosaur companies that plodded into this disaster die. Not every bank was run by a Tyrannosaurus Rex master of the universe who was invincible in his own mind. Some of the banks were run by little nimble squirrelly creatures who rejected the poison nuts. They'll survive the disaster. As we did. And will...if we just don't panic and heed the doom-meisters. The sky is NOT falling.

LarsPorsena said...

AL:
"..So we need leaders who know shit from shinola..."

We do know a crap sandwich when we see it and we're not eating it.

John Burgess said...

MM: State pensions are a disaster only waiting to be reported. They are, by and large, underfunded to a grotesque degree. And that's before you get into things like scamming the system for 'disability' payments on top.

MadisonMan said...

Noting the Pogo tag, I click it, and note that some of the threads are Pogo because Pogo is frontpaged (I hate that word) and some are Pogo because Walt Kelly's strip is discussed, and some are Pogo as in Pogo stick.

You clearly need multiple Pogo tags. Classic Pogo, Pogo Stick and Pogo.

(I'm not a control freak -- really!)

AlphaLiberal said...

"...without any note in the article that they attempted to contact the Palin campaign to verify any of this. "

Is this the piece you refer to?
"..the public record isn't clear on whether Palin is a Young Earth creationist or an Old Earth creationist. "

Not exactly an allegation.

Is this the source of the story? Seems like the press should look into it. After all, they looked into internet rumors that Obama is a Muslim (with a pastor, yet!)

Paddy O. said...

It doesn't matter what she believes. What matters is what people think she believes and what people encourage others to think she believes.

That's the goal of this. Truth isn't important. As was shown after her choice as VP the goal is to throw enough out there, lies, half-lies, distortions, so as to create doubt and to focus the issues away from the important topics. The goal is to divert attention and bring chaos into the conversation.

It's a rhetorical tactic for people who don't care at all about anything besides their group gaining power. It's the exact same thing as "Obama is a Muslim" that we see on the Right.

Both are despicable distractions by ethically challenged partisans.

erniecu73 said...

So, how does one post pictures? The regular html doesn't seem to work...

erniecu73 said...

Is AL asking the MSM to fatcheck their anti-Pali allegations??

I am SHOCKED, *SHOCKED*!!

MadisonMan said...

Oh yes, State Pensions are grossly underfunded. When I was back in my home town (Hi rightwingprof!) there was a letter to the editor from a retiree complaining about no increases in the past 4 (!) years -- and I'm thinking that if you can't increase payments when the Stock Market is doing well, you are in serious trouble.

I think Wisconsin's might be in somewhat better shape than Pennsylvania's, but still it's a disaster that is looming. I'll be working 'til I die I am sure.

PogoПОССУМ said...

ernie

The silence and quiets are needed!
Already I work with Senator Pelosi and Reid. First, the banks, then the hospitals, then oil and coal.
Soon is Победы victory!

The schools we have had now many years, from the grade 1 to university (Hello to friends and товарищ comrades at Berkeley and Michigan университет University! Go the Team!)

Just over the horizon the rest!
Welcome СCША America!

Stealth!

MadisonMan said...

ernie, only the owner of the blog can post pictures. You can post links to pictures, but that's all.

Or you can post links.

Elise said...

It sounds to me like Mr. Munger, cited in the LA Times article, has failed to read his Snopes.

Paul Zrimsek said...

"When the stock market crashed in 1929, Tyrannosaurus Rex didn't go on television and talk about the princes of greed. No, he went to Wall Street and ate the princes of greed." -- Joe Biden

erniecu73 said...

thanks, MadisonMan.

I wanted to post a picture of Integrity, michael/AlphaLiberal and LoafingOaf with their favorite pets.

mcg said...

I pulled up that thread over breakfast and thought the conservatives came off as a bunch of playground bullies taunting Michael.

That's because we were.

Sloanasaurus said...

If only the Republicans had succeeded in pillaging Social Security and transfering all of the funds to Wall Street investment bankers, as Bush and Congressional Republicans wanted.

If only! Then my social security tax would at least be buying assets at a nice low value that I would actually own. Instead, the taxes just get spent by the democrats in congress on their pet liberal housing programs and when I retire, I own nothing but a promise from liberal politicans.

I would take an asset over a promise that can't be kept anyday.

Spread Eagle said...

If only the Republicans had succeeded in pillaging Social Security and transfering all of the funds to Wall Street investment bankers, as Bush and Congressional Republicans wanted.

Yeah, as if SS is in good hands now. What a hoot. And I hate to break it to you, but the savvy investor makes money in good times and even more in supposed bad times. Fortunes are being made right now.

john said...

Madisonman - that was evil.

Or maybe you are calling Ann's attention to a really inexcusable display of shorts.

erniecu73 said...

Товарич ПОССУМ, dovai довай, the future belongs entirely to socialism! The light and glory of victory awaits! All power to The One!

Lawgiver said...

Al said,

So we need leaders who know shit from shinola. Yes, it's important they not be superstitious ignorants.

Yeah, what Alpha sez. Stupid Christians literally believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate come to visit the earth. They believe a book of unprovable lies called The Bible. We can't be electing ignorants like Palin, McCain, Obama, or that other guy who believe such drivel.

Sloanasaurus said...

But now that there's a dinothread, yeah, it matters if a VP candidate thinks humans and dinosaurs were here at the same time, a few thousand years ago.

Blah Blah, your and idiot as always alpha, spewing lies.

It also matters that our politicians believe in freedom and capitalism, something Obama tends to pooh pooh. I'll take a freedom loving creationist anytime over an atheist secular socialist like Obama.

downtownlad said...

She's right. I saw it in Land of the Lost.

mcg said...

Let's just be clear. We have plenty of opportunities in this blog and others to talk about what an idiot you think Palin is or what a dangerous closet radical I think Obama is, etc. etc.

But when we're trying to have a discussion on another topic, like the bailout, and you come plowing through off-topic crap like that, I'm going to mock you. And I'm glad to know a number of my fellow Althousians will have my back.

There are only a couple of posters around here who pull stunts like that. They know who they are. One of them is already whining.

Spread Eagle said...

paddy o:

And it has been unrelenting since McCain named her. Can't we say there's been nothing like this before, at least in our lifetimes, but probably never? The effort to personally destroy a VP selection for no reason other than just because?

MadisonMan said...

Can't we say there's been nothing like this before, at least in our lifetimes, but probably never?

Were you around when Quayle was picked?

Paddy O. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
erniecu73 said...

MadisonMan, I had that song stuck in my head before you posted the link...weird...

Paddy O. said...

"I saw it in Land of the Lost."

Both candidates, Palin and Obama, need to clarify their position on Sleestaks.

Are they evil primitives or a misunderstood culture?

Just because Sleestaks were once an advanced, thriving civilization does not, in my opinion, mitigate their later descent into barbarism

bearbee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pogo said...

"But when we're trying to have a discussion on another topic, like the bailout, and you come plowing through off-topic crap..."

Changing the subject is the entire point.
It's a tactic.

bearbee said...

Most of the politicians don't understand the cause underlying the crisis. We are asking those for caused it to fix it.

The next time someone running for office knocks on your door looking for your vote, pull out a balance sheet and ask them to explain it.

I am beyond anger.

Henry said...

I pulled up that thread over breakfast and thought the conservatives came off as a bunch of playground bullies taunting Michael.

I did wonder if Michael was smoking dope or something. If he was in the spell of dementia it was cruel to mock him, but how can one know? His typing skills were still evident.

Paddy O. said...

I also request, nay demand, that both the candidates, Palin and Obama, address each of the issues mentioned in this thread.

Our national security and economic recovery, and the fate of humanity itself if not the whole universe, depends on our learning precisely what irrationalities these presumptive Scientist-in-Chief's believe, and I'd also like to know why and who taught them such things.

MadisonMan said...

Re: the bailout. Why did the bill that got torpedoed give such power to the Treasury Secretary, when I thought objections to that were pretty clear last week? It seemed like the compromise bill that was worked on last week took some of that power away, yet from what I read, it came back in the turned-down bill.

Most of the Republicans House members from WI voted no (exception: Paul Ryan) and most of the Democrats votes yes (exception: Steve Kegen). It'll be a curious thing to see over the course of the next week to see which of all of them start to have second thoughts.

I'm unconvinced that a meltdown is occurring. I think a large part of the problem is no one knows what is happening and what anything is worth. And I don't know the solution to that. Is it a huge infusion of money? Well, that case has not been convincingly made.

There was an interesting Editorial Cartoon last weekend. It was essentially a re-telling of the Boy who cried Wolf, with Bush playing the Boy. And the last thing he was crying wolf about was Financial Meltdown. (The first was WMD -- I don't recall now the middle two). This "crisis" is compounded by a lame duck President (from the Republican side) that no one believes (from the Democratic side).

Prediction: The stock market will not fall so much today as yesterday.

Lawgiver said...

I pulled up that thread over breakfast and thought the conservatives came off as a bunch of playground bullies taunting Michael.

Yes, Now go away before I taunt you a second time, from one of the greatest movies of all time.

erniecu73 said...

Pogo said...
[...]

Changing the subject is the entire point.
It's a tactic.

9:15 AM


Or is it a strategy? This may be a question for comrade ПОССУМ.

goesh said...

I can see state retirees taking a 50-60% reduction in pensions if there isn't a bailout but they don't need to be buying things anyway and many business owners will keep employees on a payroll even if merchandise isn't moving - the elderly and most other retirees can sleep in school gyms and line up at soup kitchens for a few years while the rest of us tighten the ol' belt - we'll look back in a dozen years and puzzle over the concerns of today

Revenant said...

If only the Republicans had succeeded in pillaging Social Security and transfering all of the funds to Wall Street investment bankers, as Bush and Congressional Republicans wanted.

As anyone with a brain wanted.

Had the money I paid in Social Security taxes been invested in the stock market, I'd still be far ahead of where Social Security will put me -- and the money would be mine, not the government's.

Every time the stock market takes a hit, clueless lefties start bleating about how unsafe it is. But the fact remains that it is the best long-term investment. Over a few years you might lose money, but over the forty years a person works you always come out ahead.

krylovite said...

Both candidates, Palin and Obama, need to clarify their position on Sleestaks.

A fantastic bit of trivia: Bill Laimbeer was a Sleestak!

MadisonMan said...

goesh, well in the case of my parents, who lived through the Depression, everything old will be new again. They'll cope. Boomers who have had everything given to them won't be quite so resigned to their fate.

UWS guy said...

Does it matter what her views are? Only if you believe culture will always advance.

The Library of Alexandria was headed by a female scientist in the year 300. In that library were globes of the earth accurate within a few hundred miles.

On her way to work one day, a mob of christian zealots set upon her with clam shells and flayed the flesh from her bones.

The library was burned to the ground and minkind slipped into a 1000 years of darkness.

Carl Sagan speaks about the library here. (you can view the entire series there also)

madawaskan said...

Man I kept wanting to drop this in the threads-

Blue Monday

I thought I was mistaken
I thought I heard your words
Tell me how do I feel
Tell me now how do I feel

Those who came before me
Lived through their vocations
From the past until completion
They will turn away no more

And I still find it so hard
To say what I need to say
But Im quite sure that youll tell me
Just how I should feel today

I see a ship in the harbor
I can and shall obey
But if it wasnt for your misfortunes
Id be a heavenly person today

And I thought I was mistaken
And I thought I heard you speak
Tell me how do I feel
Tell me now how should I feel.


OK now for the weirdness of that.

Those were from my disco days-in the bars of Quebec-in the '80's

C'était le meilleur-I feel sorry for the rest.

Anyways just a side note-back then there was this law-80% had to be in French or of the common wealth. So we listened to a bunch of Brit stuff because we were still part of the common wealth back then.

Also 80% of our cheers had to be French-gawd so weird.

But, now for the sad part the Europeans, the foreigners when I lived overseas in the Days of Carter-they hated you.

The USA-back then they sniveled at your weakness-now they say it to your face-what can I say?

But that's were we could be headed-

The Days of Carter.

Henry said...

MadisonMan wrote: I'm unconvinced that a meltdown is occurring. I think a large part of the problem is no one knows what is happening and what anything is worth. And I don't know the solution to that. Is it a huge infusion of money? Well, that case has not been convincingly made.

Hey man, are you trying to hijack the Dinosaur thread?

Actually I agree with you. I'm hoping that for a nice long chill-down period before Congress regroups. According to an article in Forbes, the $700B was total guesswork:

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

From everything I've read, we didn't have a regulation problem, we had an expert problem. Bad assets were sold and rated as bad assets with attendant risk. Then bad assets were bundled and sliced and the risk magically disappeared.

This was a problem of experts thinking their sophisticated financial tools and make-believe mathematical forecasts allowed banks to handle far more risk than they actually could.

Now we have more experts telling us that their sophisticated financial tools(uh, guesses) will solve the problem. It's a $700B lottery ticket.

Lawgiver said...

Science and logic can prove Palin is a witch!

madawaskan said...

Oh the thing that they say to your face?

They hate you.

They always did.

madawaskan said...

Eh Madisonman


NO-
OK I posted what Obama said about McCain gambling and that McCain was to blame in Ann's original thread on this.


His tune definitely changed after Pelosi "lost" her own vote.

You know for almost twelve years Tom Delay never counted his votes wrong?

Imagine that.

erniecu73 said...

So, UWS, are you implying that Palin will burn down the libraries and create fundamentalist mobs to kill all scientists?

And the name of your ancient philosopher was Hypathia of Alexandria.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

He's wondering what's going to happen to his annuity bought through AIG that was providing about $800/month for them. The State Pension Fund (PA) is heavily invested in the Stock Market (I wager most state retirement funds are) and he's wondering about that too

Depending on the type of annuity (fixed vs variable). Fixed annuities are considered life insurance and are covered under your State for insurance reserves. There have only been a very few failures of that system (one was in Pennsylvania) So if its fixed he should be ok.

State Pension funds are defined benefit plans that are funded by current and past contributions. As the fund decreases in value with the market the actuarial amounts that have to be put into the fund by current payers (TAXPAYERS) increases significantly. This is because we, the taxpayers, are guaranting a future income for retirees based on current income and on investment performance. This is the most expensive type of retirement plan.

SO......the answer is for the taxpayer...get some lubricant and bend over.

Dunno about you but I like the idea of dinosaurs rampaging (ala Jurassic Park) through the Capital Building. A squealing Barney Frank waddling as fast as he can before a Velociraptor. Or a grimacing Nancy Pelosi being attacked from the air by Pterosaurs. Smile.

rhhardin said...

Armstrong and Getty (KNEW radio San Francisco) propose playing Louie Louie until Congress acts.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Talked to my Dad last night. He's wondering what's going to happen to his annuity bought through AIG that was providing about $800/month for them. The State Pension Fund (PA) is heavily invested in the Stock Market (I wager most state retirement funds are) and he's wondering about that too.

MadisonMan

You might want to check with the Wisconsin insurance guaranty association. Every state has one that provides guarantees on some insurance products in the event an insurance company goes bankrupt. Its my understanding that your traditional fixed type products are covered under the guaranty funds.

UWS guy said...

The story of Hypatia begins at 6:25

UWS guy said...

No ernicu73: but sagan makes the fabulous point that the library burned because scientists never popularized their learning with the population.

How hard will it be to convince young christian men and women of our hard one scientific knowledge when they can point to the leaders of the free world as exemplars of ignorance as their defense?

That story (not to sound like a featured email at Andrew Sullivan) nearly makes me cry every time I watch it.

Lawgiver said...

Help, help, I'm being oppressed!

erniecu73 said...

UWS guy said...
The story of Hypatia begins at 6:25

9:41 AM


I am familiar with the story.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has praise for her, and calls the act murder.

"In a disturbance which arose, Orestes was wounded in the head by a stone thrown by a monk named Ammonius. The prefect had Ammonius tortured to death, and the young and fiery patriarch honoured his remains for a time as those of a martyr. The Alexandians were always riotous as we learn from Socrates (VII, vii) and from St. Cyril himself (Hom. for Easter, 419). In one of these riots, in 422, the prefect Callistus was killed, and in another was committed the murder of a female philosopher Hypatia, a highly-respected teacher of neo-Platoism, of advanced age and (it is said) many virtues. She was a friend of Orestes, and many believed that she prevented a reconciliation between the prefect and patriarch. A mob led by a lector, named Peter, dragged her to a church and tore her flesh with potsherds till she died. This brought great disgrace, says Socrates, on the Church of Alexandria and on its bishop; but a lector at Alexandria was not a cleric (Scr., V, xxii), and Socrates does not suggest that Cyril himself was to blame. Damascius, indeed, accuses him, but he is a late authority and a hater of Christians."

This was written in 1913.

Michael McNeil said...

AL “Idiotics” sez:
Is this the piece you refer to?
“… the public record isn't clear on whether Palin is a Young Earth creationist or an Old Earth creationist.”


Both Young Earth Creationists and Old Earth Creationists are wrong, in my not so humble opinion, but one thing's for sure: Old Earth creationists do not claim that dinosaurs and humans were alive at the same time.

AL's just stupid to quote this in supposed support of that opinion. But that's old news too.

erniecu73 said...

UWS, Sagan's "Cosmos" has always been one of my favorite popular scientific series. However, he's not completely accurate on this story, as many are not.

madawaskan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paddy O. said...

Does it matter if history is correct? Not if there is an axe to grind.

Can we elect anyone who has followers with such a poor knowledge of history?! I say nay!

Where does Obama stand on the issue of who burned down the Library at Alexandria? Who is responsible for reparations? I demand answers. The crisis in the middle east and the future of professional football in Los Angeles are dependent on the answer.

bearbee said...

I like the idea of dinosaurs rampaging (ala Jurassic Park) through the Capital Building. A squealing Barney Frank waddling as fast as he can before a Velociraptor. Or a grimacing Nancy Pelosi being attacked from the air by Pterosaurs. Smile.

STOMP!

erniecu73 said...

Here, UWS, the link is broken above:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04592b.htm

Paddy O. said...

Scientists are so anti-intellectual.

erniecu73 said...

Paddy O. said...
Scientists are so anti-intellectual.

9:57 AM


RACIST!

Henry said...

"Hypothetically," said Palin to the head librarian of Wasilla, "Hypothetically speaking, if we burned down the library and cut you to death with potshards, would that be okay?"

"Hey look! Dinosaur tracks!"

Chip Ahoy said...

Pogo! You're the best.

Coming out of Red Rocks natural amphitheater toward Green Mountain but avoiding the town of Morrison on one side, and 1-70 on the other side, you can cut across a prominent ridge that runs pretty much the full length of the front range. West Alameda Parkway turns south out of Red Rocks, crosses hogback ridge road, rises up the ridge, turns sharply at the top and reverses direction and descends on the other side, where the whole of the plains opens to view. The ridge itself in that area is called North Dinosaur Open Space Park. You can stop the car anywhere along the length of the ridge and have yourself a breathtaking hike, and as your awe-struck and wondering eyes take in the view, you can easily imagine dinosaurs wandering the plain.

Here's the point of relating this: On the Green mountain side on that ridgeback road is a stark grey shale slide. My brother and I stopped there often, hiked up, and sort of surfed the loose shale. I'd always take a hammer to break open schists determined to find a leaf or a trilobite I knew the shale contained. Such the amateur anthropologist. I spend hour upon hour doing this. My brother knew the ground was known to contain evidence of dinosaurs but nonetheless thought I was daft to patiently sit there cracking open shale discarding pieces for so long without ever finding anything. Eventually, over a period of years, I became discouraged. Two years ago I drove my cousin, who was visiting, up to the sites. My favorite shale place had been fenced off. :-( As we drove by, I noticed gigantic dinosaur footprints within the shale field had been painted black so that they showed. The prints ran across the entire shale field, with smaller prints crossing them, like giant chicken prints. I was sitting in a dinosaur footprint the whole time without knowing it while cracking open shale looking for trilobites and leaves and other evidence of dinosaurs. My only defense, I suppose, is they weren't on the surface, but rather underneath the bulk of the loose shale. You can see all this for yourself if you like.

This concludes my anecdote. Except to say, the LOL dinosaur picture has it a bit off. The dinosaurs are indeed in our history, but it is we who are in their footprints.

UWS guy said...

Thanks erniecu73: Interesting to get a different view of it.

I'd like to read what the catholic church wrote in the hundred years after her murder though and not a modern account that just so happens to exonerate a pope who became a saint while the literary and scientific history of the world died in his city on his watch.

garage mahal said...

"While the rest of the species is descended from apes, redheads are descended from cats".

-Mark Twain

erniecu73 said...

UWS, so you want to find the error which we have already corrected to condemn us again for it? Isn't that a bit too hateful?

Peter V. Bella said...

So we need leaders who know shit from shinola. Yes, it's important they not be superstitious ignorants.

You mean like Joe Biden who believes that FDR went on television in 1929 to assure the nation over he stock crash; when he was not even president yet, and televison was not even invented?

You mean Joe Biden who asks people in wheel chairs to stand up and let the folks see them?

You mean Joe Biden, the senior powerhouse senator who could npot be bothered to go to DC during the financial crisis and lend a hand?

Yeah, we need people who know shit from Shinola. We also need people who know shit. Joe Biden does not know shit.

Paddy O. said...

Isn't that a bit too hateful?

And as intellectual as saying dinosaurs lived with humans.

Peter V. Bella said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Peter V. Bella said...

MadisonMan said...
Oh yes, State Pensions are grossly underfunded.

It is not just state pensions. Municipal pensions are also underfunded. They are allowed to be by the respective governments. Unfortunately no one cares.

Michael McNeil said...

Dust Bunny Queen says:
Dunno about you but I like the idea of dinosaurs rampaging (ala Jurassic Park) through the Capital Building. A squealing Barney Frank waddling as fast as he can before a Velociraptor. Or a grimacing Nancy Pelosi being attacked from the air by Pterosaurs. Smile.

While considering that splendid view, it's worth mutating your visualization by the news that we now know that many dinosaurs including velociraptor were feathered, like a toothy Big Bird. Even huge tyrannosaur likely still bore a tuft or two as an adult and lots more when young.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

that many dinosaurs including velociraptor were feathered

Even better. Fuzzy pink and purple dinosaurs with cute top knots like quail, ripping the congress critters to shreds.

:-)

Michael said...

It's nice to see that I finally got you people talking what is really important.

Last night I dropped in a non sequitur relating to Palin saying "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," and that "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks"...and all hell breaks loose.

I took all kinds of heat and ribbing about how this didn't relate to the bailout thread, but I think it does...and deep inside those conservative hearts of many here, I think they secretly believe so too.

If McCain and Palin are elected...do we REALLY want part of the "team" believing such hooey??

And what would their counterparts throughout the world think of such an executive?

Don't many here think having a Vice President believing something so patently ridiculous just might effect their credibility...just a tad?

*And obviously, this comment is not directed at those who agree with Palin's view of the planet.

To each their own...just don't run for Vice President.

Chip Ahoy said...

Madawaskan, that's the best song and video in the history of songs and videos!

* brings up lime wire *

* enters blue monday / new order

* puts on i-pod *

* glees *

Thank you for pointing to that.

erniecu73 said...

Michael said...
[...]

To each their own...just don't run for Vice President.

10:28 AM


Right, because the Constitution says you have to pass an Evolution litmus test in order to qualify for election to public office.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

I doubt very much Palin ever believed this, but I'm pretty sure Obama believes central government control of the economy works despite decades of evidence to the contrary. Which is more dangerous? Even if your leader believed the the Fintstones existed, I dont't see the danger, relatively speaking. Of course if Obama said it, it would demonstrate his open mind and I would believe it too.

Michael said...

erniecu73 - I never said anything about a "litmus test." I merely feel that someone who is potentially going to be an instrumental part of the executive branch of our government should have a reasonable understanding of basic science.

Religious beliefs aside, anyone who actually thinks humans were roaming the planet over 200 million years ago does not fit the bill.

*Let me ask you this: If you son or daughter came home from high school or college and announced he or she just didn't buy into carbon dating or that humans were living during the Mesozoic Era...would you just pat them on the back and say "that's nice to know?"

Or would you sit them down, ask a few questions and try to point out what Paleontologists have to say about such matters?

P.S. bagoh20: I based my Palin/dinosaur comment on this:

Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago -- about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct -- the teacher said.

After conducting a college band and watching Palin deliver a commencement address to a small group of home-schooled students in June 1997, Wasilla resident Philip Munger said, he asked the young mayor about her religious beliefs.

Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," Munger said.

When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska.

If you think Munger is lying, that's your prerogative.

Chip Ahoy said...

Carl Sagan's Cosmos is one of my all-time favorite shows. I watched it, like, four times. Bought the accompanying book. I wondered throughout why Sagan had it out for people of faith. Seemed to me then, and still does, that religious faith and scientific knowledge cover two entirely different areas of human experience and they have no real conflict with one another because they don't overlap. For one or the other to force a conflict is unnecessary. As I continued to study Cosmos I came to realize Sagan employed the very techniques he seemed to despise in people of faith. Notably, the interior of his ship of the imagination, the dandelion seed that becomes a space/time ship is much like the inside of a cathedral. The lectern from which he speaks resembles a church podium. The view screen is much like stained glass windows of a church. And most noticeable of all, the inspirational music that rises to climax on a scientific riff, for instance, the animation of evolution of life. Wudup wid'at? Huh?

Have you noticed how Neil deGrasse Tyson repeats everything Sagan said. There's tons of new stuff, but Tyson just keeps repeating Tyson. This has caused consternation in my mind billions and billions of times. <--- possible exaggeration.

erniecu73 said...

Michael said...
erniecu73 - I never said anything about a "litmus test." I merely feel that someone who is potentially going to be an instrumental part of the executive branch of our government should have a reasonable understanding of basic science.

Religious beliefs aside, anyone who actually thinks humans were roaming the planet over 200 million years ago does not fit the bill.

*Let me ask you this: If you son or daughter came home from high school or college and announced he or she just didn't buy into carbon dating or that humans were living during the Mesozoic Era...would you just pat them on the back and say "that's nice to know?"

Or would you sit them down, ask a few questions and try to point out what Paleontologists have to say about such matters?

10:52 AM



I still don't see the relation between these beliefs and the ability to conduct policy. If we were to eliminate all those who don't believe in evolution from governement, we wouldn't have a Congressional Black Caucus.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael said...

erniecu73 - You either don't get it, or you're just being obstinate.

"Religion" and whether you do or do not believe in "evolution" aren't at the crux of my position.

It's "basic science."

If someone wants to believe their "God" created heaven and Earth and that Adam and Eve strolled a garden with a talking snake...that is their prerogative, but to dismiss the study of the geology and the physical history of the planet itself is downright ridiculous...especially if they're representing America as its Vice President.

And once again:

*If your son or daughter came home from high school or college and announced he or she just didn't buy into carbon dating or that humans were living during the Mesozoic Era...would you just pat them on the back and say "that's nice to know?"

Or would you sit them down, ask a few questions and try to point out what Paleontologists have to say about such matters?

erniecu73 said...

For the last time, what does it have to do with governement? Don't we want our leaders to keep their religion away from government (as we should)? So why do we bring their religious views into question when we are talking about government?

Donn said...

From Wiki:

The ancient accounts by Plutarch,[9] Ammianus Marcellinus, and Orosius agree that Caesar accidentally burned the Library down during his visit to Alexandria in 48 BC. While there are reasons to doubt this version of events, these accounts do suggest that the Library was a thing of the past when Plutarch was writing, about AD 100. Strabo, who live in Alexandria in 20 BC, wrote about the Library in such a way as to imply that it no longer existed in his time.

Sagan might have been a genius when it came to science, but he was a dunce when it came to Christianity.

Michael said...

erniecu73 said..."For the last time, what does it have to do with governement? Don't we want our leaders to keep their religion away from government (as we should)?"

Are you daft???

I don't care if she believes in witch doctors any more than I care if she is an atheist.

It's the "science" part of her belief that's disturbing.

What is you just can't grasp here...and why won't you answer my question relating to your kids, if and when you have them??

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

Sarah Roberts: I don’t think I believe in what you are saying. That you are the undead. Who feasts on the blood of the innocent. I thought that meant you are a Republican.
Miriam Blaylock: No simply that you are one of the chosen. To be one of the beloved of the Nostarfu is to live forever.
Sarah Roberts: But I want to live a normal life. Have a husband and a family. To have five children.
Miriam Blaylock: What a foolish wish. They will probably be retarded.
Sarah Roberts: Not all of them surely.
Miriam Blaylock: I can not countenance that you have such petty dreams. You can be a creature of the night. A dezian of the hippest nightclubs and bistros of this great metropolis. A vampire. What do you really believe Sarah?
Sarah Roberts: I believe in dinosaurs.
Miriam Blaylock: I want to bite you right now.
Sarah Roberts: Are you making a pass at me, Mrs. Blaylock?
Miriam Blaylock: Miriam.
Sarah Roberts: Miriam.
Miriam Blaylock: Not that I'm aware of, Sarah. [Sarah smiles, shakes her head, and then spills wine on her top]
Miriam Blaylock: I think I know what you have my dear Sarah. You have the Munger.
(The Munger, 1983

Spread Eagle said...

Were you around when Quayle was picked?

Of course. Seems like yesterday. But Quayle was just the dry run warm up for this. You make a good point though. The Democrats have been prototyping this for awhile.

Michael said...

erniecu73 - You love to pontificate, but when confronted with facts, you disappear.

Rather gutless.

erniecu73 said...

I still haven't seen any facts beyond your opinions, and it's called "having a life". You should try that.

bagoh20 said...

michael,

It seems you are willing to make this accusation and a vote decision based on what someone you don't know supposedly said about someone else that you don't know supposedly said. I think the dinosaur footprints stuff is equally well reasoned.

PogoПОССУМ said...

My dear Mikal:

Do not overplay. Better to drip drip the gossip. Not to insult reader, but to flatter them. And plus also pretend to not care about it, you are on her side also.

"You are so the smart! Have you heerd the Alaska babushka Бабушка in Wonderbra with flag is not believer in evolution? No matter!"

дезинформация Disinformation must be done more with the deftness.

Your affectionate Uncle,
PogoПОССУМ

madawaskan said...

Chip Ahoy-

Hey no problem!

Michael said...

erniecu73 said..."I still haven't seen any facts beyond your opinions, and it's called "having a life". You should try that."

You think carbon dating is my "opinion?"

You think humans not living at the same time as dinosaurs is my "opinion?"

If you can't refute the "facts" why bother posting this drivel?

erniecu73 said...

What do my views in evolution have to do with Palin's views or your obsessions?

erniecu73 said...

Why don't you address my opinion that if we were to put politicians through an Evolution Litmus Test, we wouldn't have a Black Congressional Caucus?

Michael said...

bagoh20 - So, you basically think the man was lying about what she said?

And no, I'm certainly not basing my vote on her dinosaur statement, I'm basing my vote for Obama on my belief he would make a better President, and that McCain showed extremely poor judgment in selecting someone so inexperienced to be his V.P. He also appears to be exhibiting signs of his age being a factor in recent statements and actions.

The same reason, based on the latest polling, most Americans feel as I do.

Michael McNeil said...

It's "basic science."

I'm sure (the other) Michael and the others so contemptuous of creationist leanings (if indeed Palin has embraced one or the other varieties of same) also blast their liberal friends who rattle on endlessly about astrology. Not.

Michael said...

erniecu73 - What does evolution or the black caucus have to do with Palin's comments?

She said she thought humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time.

I do believe in evolution, and I think a preponderance of scientists throughout the world do, too, but if one wants to believe something else, that is their option. (And I have to assume you also do not buy into evolution...right?)

If you actually believe a world leader, thinking what Palin thinks about dinosaurs and humans...would not be a detriment to their ability to be taken seriously, you're yanking your own chain.

Based on your comments and silly responses, I think you're an uneducated fool who just can't bring himself to admit it when he is wrong.

erniecu73 said...

Mr Munger's blog, his political contributions, his Kossite stints and otherwise very open political opinions don't make him precisely impartial and very believable. Do they?

Michael said...

Michael McNeil - I personally have no liberal or conservative friends who believe in or "who rattle on endlessly about astrology."

I remember Ronald Reagan believing in it, though.

*And I have no idea what that has to do with believing humans lived alongside dinosaurs. Are you comparing a belief in astrology to someone dismissing carbon dating methods that relate to the age of fossils? Or that the plant is 6,000 years old?

erniecu73 said...

Dear Troll, you can believe whatever you want. That doesn't make it real. Now, will you address my question or not?

Michael said...

erniecu73 - I never said the man was impartial.

Based on what I've read about Sarah Palin, her church, her belief that someone can protect her from witches (video is available on YouTube), etc...that he's telling the truth.

If you want to dismiss what he says...so be it, but your arguments have not been about whether humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, they've been about evolution, not the the age of out planet. (And we both know that you're really just trying to mount a defense for something Sarah Palin "may" have said that is ridiculous.)

I hope you're not in sales or marketing because you're not very good at organizing your thoughts, responses or even the basic premise of your opinion.

erniecu73 said...

What do Palin's beliefs have to do with her ability to lead?

Michael said...

erniecu73 said..."...you can believe whatever you want. That doesn't make it real."

Which part isn't "real??"

That humans did not live at the same time as dinosaurs?

Or that carbon dating effectively establishes the age of fossils and other elements of the planet's age?

You are as dumb as a stump.

Apathetic Citizen said...

(I Am a) Dinosaur

King Crimson. Adrian Belew, vocals.

Michael said...

erniecu73 said..."What do Palin's beliefs have to do with her ability to lead?"

Forget it.

You're just too stupid for words.

erniecu73 said...

We are not discussing whether fossils are real, dinosaurs roamed the Earth with men or anything like that, you stupid moron.

Your argument is whether Palin did indeed make that comment, and whether that incapacitates her as a leader or not. This is not an argument about evolution. If you had cared to find out my views on evolution, they are in my profile.

I again don't see any relevance to all this.

You are the biggest waste of carbon and hydrogen there is.

Michael said...

erniecu73 - Oh, I forgot: As to your inane black caucus comment:

*I have no idea if you're black or white or whatever, but...

...I'll bet I can provide more evidence that people of color were here before those we refer to as being white...than you can provide to prove the opposite.

So, think about that for a few minutes and see if you can conjure up what that means...about YOU.

Michael McNeil said...

(The other) Michael sez:
You think carbon dating is my "opinion?"

(The other) Michael declares his utter scientific illiteracy, while berating others over same, by presuming that carbon dating has anything at all to say about whether human-dinosaur interactions ever took place.

Carbon dating — due to the relatively short half-life of carbon-14 (5,730 years) — is limited to less than 50,000 years; wholly insufficient for dating the many dozens of millions of years since dinosaurs were extant, and not even able to date the complete interval over which anatomically modern humans walked the Earth.

Michael said...

erniecu73 - There are reports all over the internet relating to Palin's comments.

Have you heard her refute them?

Let me know...

erniecu73 said...

What? Do you think I am going to deny that the oldest human ancestors known until known appeared in Africa?

That doesn't take away the fact that most members of the Congressional Black Caucus are also members of churches that spouse such views as the ones attributed to Palin. Yet, I don't see you or any of your trolling clones questioning their abilities as politicians or to run for public office.

erniecu73 said...

Right, and they all cite the same source...ha!

erniecu73 said...

I have important things to do. Why don't you go play with your coloring books for a while?

I'll be back.

Freeman Hunt said...

...I'll bet I can provide more evidence that people of color were here before those we refer to as being white...than you can provide to prove the opposite.

So, think about that for a few minutes and see if you can conjure up what that means...about YOU.


LOL

I'm afraid that I can't conjur up what that means... about ANYONE.

Michael, just because some guy says he heard from another guy that someone said something doesn't make it so. That's some pretty weak rumor tea. I'll believe Palin said it when there's actual confirmation.

And all the same, as I told you in the other thread, I'll take a young Earth creationist over a socialist for President or Vice President any day of the week. Both hold false beliefs, but one's false beliefs actually impact the office.

Michael said...

Michael McNeil: You're close enough - Carbon-14 dating cannot be used for materials older than about 70,000 years.

But...

Radiometric dating can give good dates for rocks of any age.

So can I assume you also believe humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time?

You know...since carbon dating can't specifically assure us they did or did not?

Michael said...

Freeman - Think about it.

Sigivald said...

I'm still confused as to why even young-earth creationism has something to do with "science" in general or the United States' ability to compete with other nations in technical or scientific achievement.

Seems to me that there's not a whole lot of science that's affected by stupid beliefs about the age of the Earth or the origin of species.

The vast majority of "modern technology" that's evidently so very important to AL that we maintain our edges in is unrelated to paleo-anything or evolutionary biology; and I see no evidence around that anyone suffers any sort of significant handicap in the other sciences from believing any sort of ludicrous crap about either set of fields.

Please explain to me how advanced physics, semiconductor research, materials science, or medicine are held back by someone believing a stupid set of things about the Earth or mankind's beginnings?

(And no, if you say "stem cells!!!", you're just showing that you don't know what the hell you're talking about, since the reasons that religious folks oppose fetal stem cell research are utterly unrelated to creationism or denial of evolution; ask the Catholics, who accept evolutionary speciation and an ancient earth... and oppose fetal stem cell research.)

(Full disclosure: I'm a lifelong atheist with an abiding interest in science in the theoretical and practical realms.

That I don't give a rat's ass that some people are creationists seems to give the people that are Deeply Concerned With It hives, for reasons they're historically really bad at clarifying.

I'm thinking, at this point, that "creationists hate science" is just cover for a cultural marker dispute, where "creationist" is another word for "The Other", and "hate science" just means "is bad", given the lack of a general hatred of science or real harms caused by The Creationist Other.

I think their kookery is basically harmless as long as they're not on the evolutionary bio or paleontology faculty. Attempts to explain why they're horrible and dangerous have so far failed miserably.)

Michael said...

Freeman - Michael, just because some guy says he heard from another guy that someone said something doesn't make it so. That's some pretty weak rumor tea. I'll believe Palin said it when there's actual confirmation."

What you really mean is this: I don't believe it because it's bad.

Why hasn't she refuted the comments? It's all over the internet and has appeared in major newspapers.

Michael said...

sigivald - "Please explain to me how advanced physics, semiconductor research, materials science, or medicine are held back by someone believing a stupid set of things about the Earth or mankind's beginnings?"

You mean a "stupid set of things" like Aids being considered nothing more than a form of gay cancer...inhibiting the research for years on end?

Stuff like that?

BetaLiberal said...

My brother, AlphaLiberal and his friend Michael are really stupid. They sit in Mom's basement all afternoon and most of the night, playing on Mom's old computer, eating Pop-Tarts and drinking Mountain Dew.

I keep telling them they need to take a shower of a bath, but they say noooooo...middle-school guys don't take no stinkin' baths or showers.

They just copy stuff the find on the internet and put it on the Ann Althouse blog. Sometimes they look at the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition and mumble things about a lady called Victoria.

They need to get a life.

Michael said...

Freeman: "I'll take a young Earth creationist over a socialist for President."

So you're another one of those who will not be taking advantage of medicare, medicaid, social security, veteran's benefits, the better business bureau, any national healcare program that's introduced, etc.

Michael said...

BetaLiberal - You post such really cute comments.

But, I keep asking you: Who the hell does your hair and do you actually pay them for doing it?

Freeman Hunt said...

Michael, if you think I support and want Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, or national healthcare, or think I believe we need a government run BBB, you are wrong.

Your comments are inane. You are obsessed with a rumor that has no backing evidence. It's silly and unserious, and therefore people have rightly mocked you.

Now I have to go feed my pet dinosaur. The family is going dinosaur riding this afternoon, and I need the good saurus well-fed and ready to go.

Terrence Berres said...

Alternate theme music for dinosaur-human relations.

Pogo said...

"So you're another one of those who will not be taking advantage of medicare," etc.

Oh, quite the contrary. I will take it and take and take it until its eschaton has been fully immanentized.

Michael McNeil said...

(The other) Michael continues flailing…
Michael McNeil: You're close enough - Carbon-14 dating cannot be used for materials older than about 70,000 years.

You mean you just frantically looked it up. It happens that the reference I chose (for convenience, Encyclopædia Britannica) states that it's 50,000 years. But you're close enough — now.

Continuing with Michael's attempt to bail out his sinking boat….

But…
Radiometric dating can give good dates for rocks of any age.


Once again, totally wrong. “Radiometric dating” (why don't you identify what kind of radiometric dating? answer: because you don't know) cannot “give good dates for rocks of any age.”

Radiometric dating (methods such as Argon-Argon, for your information) can only give dates to rocks that are igneous (volcanic) in origin. Sedimentary and metamorphic rocks cannot be dated by radiometric dating techniques.

Continuing….
So can I assume you also believe humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time? You know… since carbon dating can't specifically assure us they did or did not?

Of course not — idioticos. But you still don't know why we know that.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Trooper, where's our excerpt from Behind the Music: the Dino Flintstone story?

Christy said...

My blessing on folk that disbelieve evolution, think we co-existed with dinosaurs is "May you always have doctors who believe as you do."

The extent of my contempt for Obama is that I'd still rather have Palin. When it comes right down to it, how much damage can such a minority belief do?

Michael McNeil said...

Sigivald said:
Seems to me that there's not a whole lot of science that's affected by stupid beliefs about the age of the Earth or the origin of species.

The vast majority of "modern technology" that's evidently so very important to AL that we maintain our edges in is unrelated to paleo-anything or evolutionary biology; and I see no evidence around that anyone suffers any sort of significant handicap in the other sciences from believing any sort of ludicrous crap about either set of fields.

Please explain to me how advanced physics, semiconductor research, materials science, or medicine are held back by someone believing a stupid set of things about the Earth or mankind's beginnings?


This is incorrect, Sigivald. Progress in medicine is tightly coupled to what you call evolutionary biology. It's now known, for instance, that cancer is the result of evolution acting on cells within one's own body — as lineages of cells progressively throw off the body's constraints on cellular proliferation.

As noted geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky put it: “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.”

Pogo said...

"May you always have doctors who believe as you do."
And that impact would be what, exactly?
My guess is Elvis Costello:
Less Than Zero.

“Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.”
Boy, Theo musta got C's in Bio if he couldn't make any sense of biology without atheism.

mcg said...

The chairman (at the time) of my undergraduate department (one of the top 10 in its field) was a well liked, highly intelligent, MIT educated, highly competent, and highly effective educator.

He was also a young earth creationist; at least, that is my recollection. I wasn't really aware of the scope of the debate back then so it could be that he was an old-earth creationist.

He is unafraid to tell people, and he was more than happy to debate it with a room full of college students. I sat in on one of those discussions and while I was in no way convinced I honestly don't think that anyone mounted a successful challenge. Of course, it really wasn't a fair fight, they were young college students. (I'm certain he'd skin Michael alive, figuratively speaking of course.) Indeed I think one of the reasons he did these meetings was not so much to convince people he was right but to encourage people to better defend what they did believe.

He regularly signs petitions with other scientists in support of intelligent design, creationism, etc. It really is rather striking to see how many Ph.D.'s---and not just in engineering, but biochemistry, microbiology, medicine, and so forth.

Crackpots, all of them? If you constructed your definition just so, then yes. But it poses an interesting conundrum to someone like Michael that so many of these people are genuinely successful in their fields. That is: if you did not know they were creationists you would have absolutely no reason to question their qualifications or abilities.

And it might be worthwhile to keep that in mind. After all, atheists can hold irrational beliefs too.

A couple of small points. Regarding the claim, "nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." I agree, and I would even go so far as to say that most creationists do. An interesting paradox in young-earth creationism is that it requires an accelerated form of evolution to account for the diversity of species.

Secondly, and even more trivially: I was Googling around to find some info about the aforementioned professor and I came across an evolution discussion I had many years back. Turns out I used the phrase "lipstick on a pig" in that discussion.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mcg said...

Bill Maher: America "Extremely Religious Because We're Young And Dumb"

This coming from a guy who's not particularly rational himself. Quoting the article linked to in my previous post:

But it turns out that the late-night comic is no icon of rationality himself. In fact, he is a fervent advocate of pseudoscience. The night before his performance on Conan O'Brien, Mr. Maher told David Letterman -- a quintuple bypass survivor -- to stop taking the pills that his doctor had prescribed for him. He proudly stated that he didn't accept Western medicine. On his HBO show in 2005, Mr. Maher said: "I don't believe in vaccination. . . . Another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur [germ] theory." He has told CNN's Larry King that he won't take aspirin because he believes it is lethal and that he doesn't even believe the Salk vaccine eradicated polio.

Michael McNeil said...

Pogo, I'm sorry to say, goes off the deep end:
Boy, Theo [Theodosius Dobzhansky] musta got C's in Bio if he couldn't make any sense of biology without atheism.

Evolution ≠ atheism.

C's? That's rather like saying Newton must have gotten C's in physics class if he couldn't make sense of physics without invoking gravity (action at a distance).

Actually, had Dobzhansky not emigrated from the USSR to America in 1927 — where he became professor first at Columbia University, then the California Institute of Technology, and finally the Rockefeller Institute — he likely would have been sent to Siberia or even executed by Stalin for promoting evolution in the face of atheistic communism's embrace of Lysenkoism.

bagoh20 said...

Michael said:
"So, you basically think the man was lying about what she said?"

Of course not. No one would ever lie about Sarah Palin, would they?

Michael said:
"McCain showed extremely poor judgment in selecting someone so inexperienced to be his V.P."

Not like the infinitely experienced Obama who has never run anything, yet wants to run the most complicated organization in the world. What does that say about your judgement. Please don't try the "a lot of people agree with me" line. A lot of people think Britney is talented. Same people I suspect. Are you one of them too?

Donn said...

MCG,

Excellent comments!

Michael said...

Michael McNeil said..."Radiometric dating (methods such as Argon-Argon, for your information) can only give dates to rocks that are igneous (volcanic) in origin. Sedimentary and metamorphic rocks cannot be dated by radiometric dating techniques."

Hence: A reasonable estimate of the planet's age.

And it ain't 6,000 years, Dude.

Michael said...

Freeman, I suggest you call in your request to NEVER take advantage of any future medicare or medicaid services.

mcg said...

Freeman, I suggest you call in your request to NEVER take advantage of any future medicare or medicaid services.

Still trotting out that idiotic idea? Have you figured out how we can opt out of paying too, yet?

Michael McNeil said...

Christy said:
The extent of my contempt for Obama is that I'd still rather have Palin.

Though I'm not particularly “contemptuous” of Obama, I tend to agree with her (?) about that. Myself, I doubt that Obama has much of any knowledge of evolution and why it's true, but simply accepts it like most on the left — because it's faddish to do so (whilst also toying with irrationalities such as astrology), meanwhile ridiculing others' more traditional religious beliefs, such as we see his supporters doing right here.

Pogo said...

"Evolution ≠ atheism."

I hope not.
But you wouldn't know that reading the popular press and books over the last 5 years.

At present, discussion of intelligent design is verboten in when debating evolution.

Michael said...

bagoh20 said..."No one would ever lie about Sarah Palin, would they?"

Until she actually refutes what he said, why would you think he was lying?

This is pretty serious statement to make about someone who's running for V.P.

(Oh, and tell me what 95% of the people here would be saying if Obama made such a statement? The howling would be beyond all comprehension.)

I hope they ask her about it on Thursday...so we can ALL clear it up once and for all.

*And if she says what he says she said...McCain's ticket will drop 10 or more points in the polls within hours.

Michael said...

Michael McNeil said..."I doubt that Obama has much of any knowledge of evolution and why it's true, but simply accepts it like most on the left — because it's faddish to do so..."

You know, we already have enough morons hanging around so why join the fray?

What would possibly make you think Obama, one of the most educated Presidential candidates in out nation's history, would not have "any knowledge of evolution and why it's true"??

And what would make you think it's only those "on the left" who accept it as being true?? Do you think a majority of the Republicans or conservatives in America don't believe in evolution?

And then you connote believing in "evolution" with being "faddish"??? As if Darwin's Theory was based in being kind of "hip?"

Are you completely out of your mind, doing drugs...drunk?

Michael McNeil said...

(Other) Michael sez:
Michael McNeil said… “Radiometric dating (methods such as Argon-Argon, for your information) can only give dates to rocks that are igneous (volcanic) in origin. Sedimentary and metamorphic rocks cannot be dated by radiometric dating techniques.”

Hence: A reasonable estimate of the planet's age.


Finally finished looking it up, hm? I thought there was a rather long pause there.

Actually, the oldest known radiometrically datable rocks are quite a bit younger than the Earth.

And it ain't 6,000 years, Dude.

Straw man alert! I never said it was. Nor do even Old Earth Creationists assert such a thing — and I'm not one of them either.

I'll bet Michael still hasn't figured out how we do date fossils (which are found in sedimentary not igneous rocks, by the way, hence undatable via purely radiometric dating).

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael said...

Michael McNeil said..."Actually, the oldest known radiometrically datable rocks are quite a bit younger than the Earth."

And your point being?

How close is the number to 6,000 years?

Trooper York said...

"I'll bet Michael still hasn't figured out how we do date fossils"

Maybe you should ask Simon.

mcg said...

I'll bet Michael still hasn't figured out how we do date fossils

That's easy. You just ask John McCain when he last saw that animal roaming the earth.

Michael said...

Trooper says: "I'll bet Michael still hasn't figured out how we do date fossils."

Oh, I have no doubt you date fossils.

Pretty funny.

Donn said...

Michael:
Do you think a majority of the Republicans or conservatives in America don't believe in evolution?

Actually, a Gallup poll in 2007 found Americans about equally divided on the question of evolution.

mcg said...

I'll bet Michael still hasn't figured out how we do date fossils

A nice dinner, a bottle of wine, light music, soft candlelight, and a pickaxe.

mcg said...

A little pseudoscience for your viewing pleasure.

Drill baby drill!

Synova said...

No ernicu73: but sagan makes the fabulous point that the library burned because scientists never popularized their learning with the population.

How hard will it be to convince young christian men and women of our hard one scientific knowledge when they can point to the leaders of the free world as exemplars of ignorance as their defense?

How hard will it be to convince young Christian men and women of our hard won scientific knowledge when they are reviled and mocked for believing in God? How can scientific knowledge be popularized when it is presented as proof that Christians are idiots?

It used to be that Christians led in scientific research and certainly in vigorous eduction and the needs of logic and reason.

What happened?

You don't make friends by suggesting, as AL did, that we must have a religious test for public office. You don't make friends, as Sagan and Asimov did, by insisting while they "popularized" science, that science proved Atheism.

Setting up science as something opposed to religious faith, rather than apart from it, is not going to help convince young people of faith to give up their faith. Insisting that they must *chose* between one or the other is not useful!

What Christian parents have been asking for in public school science classes is some element allowing coexistence... simply to be thrown a bone... just stick a word "theory" in there... something. But this is received as a horror. It's not that young Christian men and women need to be shown the wonder of science and scientific inquiry, no, they have to be stripped of their ignorance.

Is it any wonder AT ALL that Christians actually notice this hostile intent?

And it's that hostile intent that pushes people away from science... but I suppose purity is more important?

So please, go ahead and suggest the need for a religious test for public office. Gotta keep those superstitious idiots out of office or else young people might be encouraged to keep on believing in God instead of tossing out that old rubbish and thinking the right way about the world.

Lawgiver said...

....its eschaton has been fully immanentized.


LOL, Good one dude, I like it!

Michael said...

donn: "Actually, a Gallup poll in 2007 found Americans about equally divided on the question of evolution."

Oh, I have no doubt you're right.

I wonder how many believe humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs?

bagoh20 said...

michael said:
"Until she actually refutes what he said, why would you think he was lying?"

Obama told me he likes the taste of fried toddlers with his arugula and I have yet to hear him refute it. This is his favorite dish as he crosses these 57 states.

More importantly, if she does believe something stupid about 6000 years ago, that's less worrisome than his belief that the surge was going to fail 6 months ago. He actually saw the truth with his own eyes and believed something stupid instead.

You are just getting pwned here dude all around.

Synova said...

And of *course* Obama knows nothing about why scientists believe in evolution. He's not a freaking biologist. He just took someone else's word for it, just like most people do.

Just like 90% of global warmists do.

The profound lack of actual knowledge about science in this country is rather horrifying... and it only gets worse as schools replace science classes with evironmental-science classes. Throw out the rigorous stuff for the "relevant" subjects.

Even a Young Earth Creationist believes the world is orderly and rational and as such *can be studied and understood*. Not even YEC is a serious hindrance to the study of science, certainly not Math, certainly not Physics, certainly not Chemistry, not Geography or Earth Science. It wouldn't be a hindrance to Biology *either* except that politics means evolution as *observed* can't be separated from unproven assumptions about origins.

And nothing at all about believing in God or that God created the Earth (one way or another) hinders understanding the economy or the whole swath of "soft" science that deals with human behavior.

It's pure prejudice that suggests that people who believe in God can't reason or observe or understand. It's bigotry.

Michael said...

bagoh20 - You saying something about Obama on a blog site isn't quite the same as someone who actually knows the woman saying it, and being quoted in a major newspaper.

As for trying to spin this to Obama and the surge of all things: GFL.

Michael McNeil said...

(Other) Michael sez:
You know, we already have enough morons hanging around so why join the fray?

What would possibly make you think Obama, one of the most educated Presidential candidates in out nation's history, would not have "any knowledge of evolution and why it's true"??
[other multiple question marked comments omitted]

(Otherly) Michael's reduced to foaming at the mouth, so I'll not address him further directly (till, possibly, the next debate).

Before doing so (or not doing so), however, I'll say that, as to Obama, supposedly “one of the most educated Presidential candidates in out nation's history,” I do think he's probably mostly ignorant with regard to evolution. Most people are, and lawyers being a) arrogant about themselves and their knowledge (as Obama indubitably is, in spades), b) swamped in their education with legal minutiae, and c) frequently completely off base with regard to how science actually works (see, e.g., my earlier posts on another thread about how there is no proof in science — lawyers often think that there is, or should be), are likely to be at least as ignorant as the general population (i.e., pretty ignorant) with regard to evolution.

Only the rare exceptional lawyer/law professor who happens to be technically and scientifically interested as well as adept are likely to be exceptions to this rule — Eugene Volokh is a possible candidate in my view — but I've seen no evidence that Obama falls into that category.

Michael said...

synova says: "It's pure prejudice that suggests that people who believe in God can't reason or observe or understand. It's bigotry."

I've never said anything like that and I haven't read any other comments here that imply anything of the kind.

What got this going was my posting of a conversation someone said took place between him and Palin. He knows here and I can't see why he would lie.

According to him; "Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," Munger said. When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks.,

THAT has nothing to do with your charge that anyone here is saying "people who believe in God can't reason or observe or understand" governmental matters, etc.

Synova said...

Good to know, then, that you don't think Palin's religious beliefs are relevant to her abilities to function well in government.

Glad to have that cleared up.

Michael said...

Michael McNeil said..."I do think he's (Obama) probably mostly ignorant with regard to evolution."

Based on what?

Your own personal and thoroughly prejudiced viewpoint?

Do you know what courses he took through high school and college?

Have you ever discussed evolution with him?

You're just spewing out the standard right wing garbage anybody can hear from Rush, Sean and others who say whatever they want to believe.

*As for engaging me with any future discussion or debate, I think I can live without it.

Michael said...

Michael McNeil said..."I do think he's (Obama) probably mostly ignorant with regard to evolution."

Based on what?

Your own personal and thoroughly prejudiced viewpoint?

Do you know what courses he took through high school and college?

Have you ever discussed evolution with him?

You're just spewing out the standard right wing garbage anybody can hear from Rush, Sean and others who say whatever they want to believe.

*As for engaging me with any future discussion or debate, I think I can live without it.

Michael said...

Synova said..."Good to know, then, that you don't think Palin's religious beliefs are relevant to her abilities to function well in government."

I said it before: I could care less what her "religious" beliefs are. I have friends who are Catholics, Jews, Mormons, Baptists, etc. and we discuss and argue about religion all the time, and I don't think it has anything to do with their ability to handle their professional responsibilities.

This relates to Palin's basic knowledge of science, and I think if she actually believes dinosaurs and humans lived on the planet at the same time...it reflects on her intellect.

Synova said...

It's a safe bet that Obama is ignorant about science. I expect McCain is, too.

Most people are.

The idiot who explained to me that, "Well, Freeman Dyson isn't a *climate* scientist," proved the ignorance despite having the "right" beliefs about global warming.

Unless Obama is an amateur hobbyist astronomer or plant hybridizer or his undergraduate degree is in Chemistry or something (what is his undergraduate degree?) it's safe to assume that his understanding of science is at least as superficial as that of most people.

Are you under the illusion that people who believe the *right* way about evolution do so because they looked at the facts and were persuaded?

mcg said...

Prfessor, I just saw that new tag...care to explain the relationship between dinosaurs and men in shorts?

Watch the video!

Michael said...

synova: "Are you under the illusion that people who believe the *right* way about evolution do so because they looked at the facts and were persuaded?"

Some, yes.

Others because they've been able to weigh the pros and cons via course studies throughout high school and college.

Most because it makes more sense than the instantaneous creation of Adam and Eve.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Thanks, Trooper. I always wondered where Bolan got those Dino sores.

mcg said...

Most because it makes more sense than the instantaneous creation of Adam and Eve.

No more so than the immaculate conception of a child 2000 years ago, his ability to heal organic disease upon command, bring a man back to life who had already begun to stink in his tomb, and who did the same himself.

Again, Michael, you claim this is not about religious belief in general. And I'm actually inclined to believe you. But once you concede the supernatural then there really isn't a lot that can't be "on the table" so to speak.

mcg said...

At least when a Christian believes some wacky thing about Adam and Eve or Moses or Noah he's got the action of an omnipotent being to justify it.

What the hell is the 9/11 Troofers' excuse?

Synova said...

BTW, in case anyone actually is unaware of this... one of the big "things" in creation-science is a set of fossils that appear to show human footprints and dinosaur footprints in the same section of rock.

I've seen it, too.

I don't know how the fossil is explained by those who (obviously) don't believe that it's possible to have human and dinosaur footprints together. I suppose it's either that those aren't dinosaur footprints or else they aren't human footprints.

The curious thing about it all, actually, is that if one gets past "popular" science and high-school science, it all becomes more about the joy of inquiry and less about being right. High school science texts are really horrible, most of the time, and tend to present as hard fact (otherwise how to test?) things that are explained badly or even are in error or are obsolete... but you don't want to suggest to students that what they are being made to learn might be disproved by research or possibly already has been.

One of the best, scientifically rigorous, elementary level science curriculum I've seen was from a creation-science organization. The religious instruction in it had me pulling my hair out because it was horrible, but the science elements were focused on surprisingly sophisticated, fundamental, scientific concepts. It was like teaching Latin instead of Dick and Jane.

What Creationists might do to science worries me Not At All.

LoafingOaf said...

Some of these right-wingers are creationists themselves, and some of them are not but know they are in bed with creationists and so don't want anyone examininbg what nutters they are. I see it a lot in the comments over at Little Green Footballs. The siteowner over there has been posting a lot of anti-creationist stuff and some of his right-wing commenters are like, "I used to like LGF when it was just bashing Islamo-Nazis. Why don't you chill out on this stuff, Charles? They're not hurting anyone."

One post LGF had that I found fascinating was a photo gallery walk-thru of a Creaiontist mueum in the Cincinnati area. These is a museum children are bused in to and dragged around that includes displays showing humans happily frolicking next to dinosaurs. These people are brainwashing our children!

Yes, I'd like to know about Palin's current views on dinosaurs. Some of you may want it brushed under the rug because if she has educated her since she apparently expressed her ignorance on the subject, she'd alienate the Religious Right by saying so. If she still is ignorant, she'd scare off swing voters.

Palin can be a real dunce when it comes to hot topics in the Religious Right. For example, as governor she was asked if she supports kids in public schools reciting the Pledge of Allegiance with the words "under God." She replied (paraphrasing: "You betcha! If it was good enough for our founding fathers, it's good enough for me!"

Completely unaware that "under God" wasn't added till like the 1950s, and even the original Pledge wasn't written in the time of the founders.

But the Religious Right loved her for saying that, however ignorant it was, because it meant she was okay with shoving religion down the throats of puyblic school children. Palin, of course, didn't worry her pretty little head off about the First Amendment issues.

bagoh20 said...

"...she supports kids in public schools reciting the Pledge of Allegiance with the words "under God."

With the Obama campaign trying to prosecute people who criticize him, I can't believe this would be the important free speech concern especially when the pledge thing has popular support and really doesn't matter much except symbolically. Whereas Obama's use of prosecutors and police to infringe our political speech is a direct attack on the 1st amendment. I mean get serious here. He wants to be chief law enforcement official of the country. I would have no problem if he supported the pledge, but I would criticize her soundly for trying to prosecute free speech and she's only #2 on the ticket. Perspective people, perspective.

LoafingOaf said...

michael: I hope you continue to feel free to post at will about Palin's idiocy and nuttiness. Don't let the right-wing element on Althouse bully you away.

Frankly, many of these right-wing Althouse commenters should be humbling themselves by now. Palin wasn't even a lesser-evil candidate for some of these folks. This is their dream-come-true candidate! Their ideal.

I was subjected to attack because I suggested they were into Palin for superficial reasons -- that she ate mooseburgers, looked "hot" with a gun," had lots of photo-ops with animals she killed, and had a Down Syndrome baby. These people objected: "Ohh, no, we have been closely following Palin's career for a long time now, and we're tickled to death McCain took our advice to select her. It's just too bad she can't be at the top of the ticket!"

They troll people out of the comment sections when they try and bring some reality in amongst all the Palin-worship. Well, look what a ignorant, unqualified, out-of-her-league dunce Palin turned out to be. The other day she apparently could not name any other Supreme Court case besides Roe. Every day it just gets worse. It's so embarassing and sad for McCain, who now has to sit next to her like her father hoilding her hand, to guide her through an interview.

Did she say she's seen human footprints inside dinosaur footprints? Dear Lord, I hope not, but after what I've seen the past few weeks, I have to fear the worst about her and her level of ignorance.

mcg said...

Hey PinchalOaf, here's a little news flash for you. This thread is 190 posts long. It's entirely devoted to the topic Michael was soundly pounded on in the other thread. Here it's different: he's being argued with; that is, actually engaged on the topic.

Now, why do you think that is? Why is this unlike the previous thread, where I and others certainly did lay into him pretty hard?

Here ya go: because in this thread, he's not being a troll.

So cut the victim crap. You and the other trolls get exactly what you deserve when you drop your steaming troll turds in the middle of an otherwise good thread. Engage the topic at hand and you'll actually get a debate. Not that you'll like our answers, but I don't even think Michael expects that.

Donn said...

Good grief LaughingOaf, you call religious people "nutters" for believing in creation, then turn around and make this NUTTY assertion:

I suggested they were into Palin for superficial reasons -- that she ate mooseburgers, looked "hot" with a gun," had lots of photo-ops with animals she killed, and had a Down Syndrome baby.

If you really believe that, than you are "nuttier" than any creationist!

bagoh20 said...

Right...,

If Palin was so bad the left wouldn't be pulling all the stops to attack her. Lawyers and reporters dropping in to Alaska like carpetbaggers, Obama attacks her in speeches. Every left wing entertainer is in on it. That tells me she is considered a threat to Obama. Meanwhile her opponent who doesn't know who was president in 1929 or if they had TV then. Opposes his running mate's positions daily is a genius. Remember he made these gaffs on his own, not during a gotcha interview. He actually decided to educate the rest of us voluntarily.

Synova said...

The pledge and "under God" is a non-winning issue for you, Oaf.

Isn't it curious that public life seemed more secular when people weren't trying so dang hard to remove any mention of God from it?

I wonder why?

Synova said...

Actually... sure people were into Palin for superficial reasons *too*.

Sort of like how so many people are into Obama.

LoafingOaf said...

begoh20: I saw an item about that the the Volokh site and meant to go back and read about it. It was related to an NRA ad, right? I have to research what Obama was up to, but it may very well be that Obama is not a commendable champion of our First or Second Amendments. Wouldn't surprise me. Well, I already know for a fact he's not a fan of the 2nd Amendment, which is one of the things I dislike about him.

I have no choice but to vote for Obama as a lesser-evil, after 8 years of Bush and McCain selecting Palin. There's never been a national-level politician who doesn't bug me on about half the issues, or that I've felt is a big fan of all of our Bill of Rights.

But the thing is, Obama's at least someone you can debate on the issues with the knowledge that he is aware of what the competing arguments are. Especially on the constitution -- he taught con law, after all. Palin was asked about the Pledge right aroundd the time the courts made the news on the issue. But all she had to say was, "You betcha! It was good enough for our founding fathers!" And she's apparently only aware of one Supreme Court case - Roe v Wade.

And as far as foreign policy, she seems to think saying "We'll do whatever we have to do to protect the American people" is a substantive answer to virtually any question! She doesn't even know what's going on. It's beyond whether I agree with her or not. She hasn't demonstrated she knows enough to have even formed her opinions yet.

With Obama I have a pretty good idea of what he'll try and do as prez. Some of which I'll like, some of which I'll hope he fails at, just like any prez. But he is fit for the office and will be a competent, informed, serious leader. A president is not dictator, so I needn't agree with him on everything to vote for him.

mcg said...

When Michael, AL, and LoafingOaf tire of regurgitating the creationism attack, I think they'll move onto the tatooed lipliner attack.

mcg said...

And here's the Althouse thread where they can do just that without trolling!

LoafingOaf said...

synova: The pledge and "under God" is a non-winning issue for you, Oaf.

I love these sorts of comments!

I'm not running for office. I'm not a politician. I don't care whether the polls say my position is popular or un-popular.

What disturbed me is that Palin's opinion was formed out of ignorance. If she took the very same position but demonstrated she formed that view out of careful study of the issue, I'd at least be able to respectfully disagree.

Isn't it curious that public life seemed more secular when people weren't trying so dang hard to remove any mention of God from it?

I wonder why?


Isn't it curious why it's so damn important to religious people to have pubic school children reciting the Pledge with "under God" in it? I wonder why? Oh, that's right, because you're trying to push religion on them when they're just kids (iow: brainwash them). Well, a lot of us (including the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals) believe that is a violation of the First Amendment.

Last I checked, the idea of the Bill of Rights is to protect the minority from the majority. So why do you think you "win" the argument by saying a majority of the people are okay with arguably unconstitutional endorsements of religion in public schools? Anyone who cites opinion polls to "prove" a government action is not a violation of the Bill of Rights is a joke.

Michael said...

mcg says: "No more so than the immaculate conception of a child 2000 years ago, his ability to heal organic disease upon command, bring a man back to life who had already begun to stink in his tomb, and who did the same himself."

You are really thick.

I was asked about why people might believe in evolution and I responded with my reasoning.

If you disagree...so be it.

And if you think evolution is harder to believe that "the immaculate conception of a child 2000 years ago, his ability to heal organic disease upon command, bring a man back to life" that is also YOUR opinion, based on religion...not science.

ANd what the fuck does that have to do with Palin, dinosaurs, and humans??

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