August 26, 2008
Jay Leno to John McCain: "For $1 million, how many houses do you have?"
ADDED: This clip goes beyond the subject of McCain's innumerable houses, to the question of why the ads have gotten so negative. McCain blames Obama for failing to agree to do town hall sessions.
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103 comments:
"McCain blames Obama for failing to agree to do town hall sessions."
Something that was instantly buried by the MSM and rationalized by Obama supporters, both of which - until mere moments before - had lamented that modern politics lacked real, substantive debate of the issues.
Aack...he said My friends!. Stop it stop it stop it!
I cannot for the life of me understand why any sane person running for high office would go on lame talk shows. Especially when one knows the host is going to do everything he can to make you look bad in the name of comedy and getting yucks.
When was the last time Leno, Letterman, et. al. ever said anything worthwhile?
I think that the POW defense for everything will continue to work for McCain. Most folks won't know that he and his campaign use this defense on almost a daily basis in response to a variety of questions unrelated to detainment.
I don't know that I'd agree with that Peter. Jay, David and the like are there to throw softball pitches at celebrities, and when they get a politician on their show they usually give them the same treatment. It's a way to show a casual, more laid back side to yourself than you can on "important" talk shows.
As to your second point, I don't watch either, but have in the past, and Letterman's show dedicated to Warren Zevon was extremely touching.
Michele Obama was on NPR this morning answering the same question.
She, uh, changed the subject:
Barack Obama has said that he wouldn't use negative and cynical methods in his campaign. But a recent Obama ad took a swipe at Republican John McCain, portraying him as being out of touch — all to the tune of a Sam Cooke song, "Wonderful World," which includes the lyrics, "don't know much about history."
Asked about the ad's seemingly cynical tone, Michelle Obama was diplomatic.
"Folks are not doing this because they're cynical or believe that Barack is a cynical candidate," Obama said. [my emphasis]
Don't you love that word "diplomatic?" So much better than "evasive."
Earlier, Michele Obama made the valid point that "Politics is a game. And it's all about mischaracterization. But I don't let the game of politics influence what I say and who I will become, because in that way, this process would eat you up and spit you out."
So, when asked about the negative ad, she would have done better to be cynical. "Of course this campaign will play the game of politics," she could have said. McCain has poked fun at us, so we'll poke back."
It's possible to be charmingly cynical. I wish more politicos were up to the game.
The housing question begs the comparison as to how many of John McCain's houses could fit in John Edwards house.
These questions are silly. Millionaires arguing amongst themselves about who has the most houses.
As for Obama and Townhall meetings, it won't happen. BHO likes big venues and big audiences and discreet teleprompters. He doesn't think quick on his feet. Even his wife made the off-handed remark that Barack was still tweaking his speech up to the last minute. He is afraid to speak off the cuff as evidenced by his performance at Saddleback.
I mean, seriously: let's hear this from an Obama supporter. We have some hear. Defend your candidate's refusal to do townhall meetings with McCain. How do you justify that? We know that the real reason is what Vet66 said -- Obama doesn't perform well without a script, as we saw in the primary debates and as we saw at Saddleback -- but I bet that supporters don't like to admit that to themselves, and that you have some other reason you've dreamed up to justufy it to youselves. So come on, share with the group. How do you justify the candidate's refusal to do these town hall meetings?
This from a guy who owns like what, 60 cars?
Yes I know he's a comedian but please.
McCain's sense of humor doesn't seem to be any more on display than Obama's.
What would JFK have said?
Something like: "Should I count my father's houses or just my own?"
Something that was instantly buried by the MSM and rationalized by Obama supporters, both of which - until mere moments before - had lamented that modern politics lacked real, substantive debate of the issues.
For an xtreme example, see Paul Waldman.
And, if anyone wants to have real debates, help push this plan. A low-budget version of that featuring advisors to the candidates, web-only video, and a transcript would only cost about $10,000. Yet, oddly enough, some of those who complain about the lack of real debates aren't interested.
I know that Jay Leno's audience isn't a true cross-section but I was genuinely struck by their level of support for McCain. I mean we're not just talking civil applause but supportive applause, and even whoops and hollers in places---and to be best of my hearing negligible booing if any. This may not be news to anyone here---I just don't watch late night TV much. But if I remember correctly David Letterman tends to be a bit more hostile to his right-wing guests.
How many houses does Jay Leno have?
Huh? Answer me that! How many?
Simon,
I don't care that there aren't more debates. Three and Saddleback is enough for me.
I don't think BHO is bad without a script. I think that his language is picked at by partisans for partisan gain. I'm no fan of W, but I always thought that the liberal critique of his odd speaking style was boring.
Likewise, I never believed that W was dumb, as the liberals often claimed (claim). So, I don't believe that BHO (who has more scholarly and reflective accomplishments than W) is dumb.
This sort of chit chat is stupid, but BHO and W aren't, imho.
PS
I got back to you about card check.
So, how many houses does he have?!
He lists four. But he has seven. I guess he has three extra ones that he doesn't use.
The man is woefully out of touch with America. And he's not running for Best POW.
Meanwhile,Cindy is in Georgia "assessing" what?! If Obama sent his wife on such a fool's errand the criticism would never end around here. Instead, of course, utter silence.
Is it something about Althouse readers and dyed blondes?
The housing question begs the comparison as to how many of John McCain's houses could fit in John Edwards house.
I guess I missed the news that Edwards is the Democratic nominee.
So come on, share with the group. How do you justify the candidate's refusal to do these town hall meetings?
Why on earth should he? They are McCain's forte, Obama is not as good at them. It is not like probing questions are asked at Town Hall meetings. The questions are shallow and there is little follow up. There is very little advantage and too much opportunity for a gaffe to take the risk.
McCain is more folksy. I know the Republican party considers being folksy (even if it is complete artifice) to be the most important qualification for being president and that consequently the ability to interact with the "common folk" at "town hall meetings" (especially where the "townfolks" are carefully screened and vetted) is vital in choosing a president.
After all, town hall meetings are a regular and necessary part of being President, it's even in the Constitution.
How many houses does Jay Leno have?
Man, I really need to keep up with current affairs. Apparently both Leno and Edwards are running for president.
I found myself wishing McCain had extended the POW story just a little bit more: "I didn't have a house, I didn't have a kitchen table, I didn't have a table, I didn't have a chair. Jay, I didn't even have a pot to piss in".
Dr. Know said...
The man is woefully out of touch with America. And he's not running for Best POW.
Please name me one of the career politicians, elected or running, who is in touch with America? Hillary, Obama, and the rest are not and never were in touch with America. The Democratic and Republican parties are out of touch with America.
The only people in touch with America are working people. Unfortunately to too many of the so called intellectual set working people are not qualified to hold public office. It may be because they know how to balance a check book or live real lives with real problems that they solve everyday themselves; without regards to polls or what the French or Europeans think, or even the media thinks.
You know, this how many houses thing is really a distraction and blown way out of proportion.
Firstly, McCain and his wife has separate finances. She might own many things he doesn't need to know about and vice versa. In addition, I imagine that he/she/they have a blind trust(s) and really have no idea of what their actual holdings are.
I have several clients who have irrevocable trusts managed by professional fiduciary who purchases property in multiple states and even out of the country. They don't know what they exactly own and don't really care as long as they receive the income they want, keep their taxes low and their balance sheet doesn't show losses when we do their semi annual reviews.
I know it isn't common for us "regular" folk to have so much we can't keep track, but not uncommon at all for our overlords. :-)
Man, I really need to keep up with current affairs. Apparently both Leno and Edwards are running for president.
Apparently the number of houses a candidate owns has somehow become a pertinent factor in his/her ability and qualifications to be President.
At what point will any of you libs heap praise on Ronald Reagan for owning only one home while he was president?
And a small one in rural California at that.
No? Then why not just stop criticizing those who have accomplished financial success such that they might own more than one home.
You know, good dems like Teddy Kennedy, Joe Biden, Herb Kohl (two homes, one big ranch in WY and an NBA team), George Soros, Arianna Huffington, Donald Trump, John Kerry, Al Gore et. al.
Whining about the number homes someone has is just silly.
This from a guy who owns like what, 60 cars?
The comeback from McCain should have been: You looking for a garage to park all your cars? Instead he just looked evasive, as if he's been given the mandate: If you don't want to answer the question, start talking about being a POW.
No? Then why not just stop criticizing those who have accomplished financial success such that they might own more than one home.
If McCain were a woman, his brand of "financial success" would have him tagged as a gold digger. I don't know that there is a term for the male equivalent. Perhaps it is too modern a phenomenon.
I believe that Jay Leno has three aircraft hangars that he keeps his cars in. And what a collection of cars he has. I'm envious. After Leno retires I'll be looking for him to be putting his money into developing an engine that gets big time gas mileage. He employs 6 people working on these cars and other adventures. Something good will come from this man.
Letterman is a jerk.
I'd really like to lay to rest the idea that our candidates have to be "in touch" with the common man. These are important people. They've got better things to do than go than spend their hours going to the local Wal-Mart super center for the latest deals on toilet paper.
"Politics is a game. And it's all about mischaracterization. But I don't let the game of politics influence what I say"
Does anyone believe that last phrase? That she did not let the political game influence what she chose to say last night?
Or would one say she is mischaracterizing it?
Thanks very much for posting the complete interview. As cropped and presented by the MSM, McCain seemed to be saying that this issue is irrelevant because he was a POW. In the full interview we see that he points out that there were times in his life where he made choices that did not involve a comfortable berth and that there were other times--his marriage to Cindy--that his choice gave him an upward move. Well, good for him. Supporters of John Kerry and his wife Theresa Heinz should not find the concept of upwardly mobile male marriages difficult to understand.....It is instructive and edifying to see how effortlessly Democrats and Republicans have switched positions on the wisdom and morality of marrying heiresses....Paris, I'm still here for you, honey.
MM said: "he just looked evasive, as if he's been given the mandate: If you don't want to answer the question, start talking about being a POW."
William said: "As cropped and presented by the MSM, McCain seemed to be saying that this issue is irrelevant because he was a POW. In the full interview we see that he points out that there were times in his life where he made choices that did not involve a comfortable berth "
William nailed it.
1jpb said...
"I'm no fan of W, but I always thought that the liberal critique of his odd speaking style was boring."
Heh. Ironically enough, I always thought that was one of the stronger liberal critiques of Bush. I entirely understand the yearning for a President who can make the case for his policies and communicate in complete sentences.
Apparently the number of houses a candidate owns has somehow become a pertinent factor in his/her ability and qualifications to be President.
No, but knowing what you have is required for the most minimal competency -- the ability to make a valid will:
Testamentary Competency
Did the testator know the extent of his property and the natural objects of his or her bounty, and did he hold both in mind at moment the will was executed.
John McCain, Celebrity
Apart from appearing on Leno and the Daily Show a dozen times, McCain has been on TV's 24, WWF (Raw Is War and Smackdown), and Wedding Crashers.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0564587/
William, the problem with McCain's answer in this day and age is that the attention span of the average youngster is so short that a rambling answer will seem evasive. So although someone old like me might watch the whole interview, a younger viewer is going to be texted by a friend in the meantime and not catch the whole interview and perceive evasion.
BTW, Leno miscounted. By my count, McCain listed four houses.
Sorry Jay, you don't win the pool.
Well I guess McCain didn't win the $1Mil!
By the way, at least one of those houses he/Cindy/whatever owns is actually the residence of a relative. I can relate to that, having bought my parent's latest (and, likely, last) home.
So I have to wonder: perhaps Obama should buy his brother's home in Kenya. He can afford it.
By the way, OMike, I never answered your question yesterday. Vilas County. Almost in the UP.
Freder said: "If McCain were a woman, his brand of "financial success" would have him tagged as a gold digger. I don't know that there is a term for the male equivalent. Perhaps it is too modern a phenomenon."
Please refer to the label you affixed to John F. Kerry for the same accomplishment.
Yep, four houses: Phoenix, DC, the coast, and up north in AZ.
Where in Vilas County? I camp up there a lot (Nicolet, Ottawa, Sylvania). Haven't made it this year, yet, but maybe I can live vicariously through you.
McCain is shameless! He is actually saying he can't be criticized on ANYTHING because he was a POW!
Leno's a wimp. He should have called him on hiding behind his POW status (not to mention his wife's skirts).
And the logic that, if Obama would just do as McCain tells him then McCain and his cohorts won't run negative ads is an insult to anyone's intelligence. How dumb do they think the American people are? (pretty dumb)
But, on a more positive note, we finally have a high-ranking Republcian official admitting the Republican Party runs an Orwellian lying propaganda outfit.
From TPM
'Wadhams described the GOP's outfit thusly to the Denver Post: "Just consider this the Ministry of Truth."'
And...
'Um, as anybody who has ever read George Orwell knows, the Ministry of Truth exists to disseminate false propaganda about how great the ruling regime is, continuously rewriting both history and the present-day facts in order to maintain total control over the population.
"The Ministry of Peace concerns itself with war, the Ministry of Truth with lies, the Ministry of Love with torture and the Ministry of Plenty with starvation," Orwell wrote. "These contradictions are not accidental, nor do they result from ordinary hypocrisy; they are deliberate exercises in doublethink."'
So that's why Kucinich wanted a Dept. of Peace. And here I thought he was just a loon.
1) "Blood relatives and paid staffers"
2) "Which goes to show anything can happen if you live long enough"
= LOL!!
As for the general impressions: It was all right. A little too serious, and I've seen him be jollier perhaps. But like Hugh Grant who appeared on Leno immediately after getting nookie and be arrested, McCain appeared just after the first real punch which landed on him -- the houses thing.
And he responded very well.
I didn't see no Barack Obama on Leno after the Reverend Wright NAACP conference.
It's easy to be smart. It's not so easy to be brave.
Cheers,
Victoria
/having been arrested.
Victoria shills for MCSame:
"It's not so easy to be brave."
Inigo Montoya:
"I don't think that word means what you think it means."
If McCain were to show actual courage here, he would address the question head-on, not hide behind his POW status and his wife's skirts.
McCain's POW status is irrelevant to the question and is evasive. Evasiveness = courage? Really? Please elaborate!
Victoria, there's a future for you in the Republican Ministry of Truth. You say the opposite of the truth.
Fact is, McCain is filthy rich and has no idea what life is like for the middle class. He's been in America's elite since the day he was born and got an easy ride through the Naval Academy as one of the worse students in his class.
Most folks won't know that he and his campaign use this defense on almost a daily basis in response to a variety of questions unrelated to detainment.
So your argument is that the McCain campaign is using a defense that most people never end up hearing? I would think an Obama supporter like you would be happy about that.
McCain's POW status is irrelevant to the question and is evasive. It is? Because then you say this is why the issue matters:Fact is, McCain is filthy rich and has no idea what life is like for the middle class.
For a good 5.5 years he had it considerably worse than the middle class. I'm thinking this fact resonates just fine with intellectually honest folks. I think that's why it pisses you off that he brings it up so much, because it works.
Furthermore, when he was born, his father was 3 years out of the academy. You think he made admiral that fast? And you think an officer 3 years out is "upper class"? I've got a full childhood that proves you wrong. Sure it's a better station to be in than, say, the child of an enlisted man 3 years in. But it ain't upper class, not til about bird colonel stage at the earliest.
Oh, people are catching on that McSame is using his POW experience as an excuse to run away from answering hard questions.
Even Mo Dowd has figured it out:
"His campaign is cheapening his greatest strength — and making a mockery of his already dubious claim that he’s reticent to talk about his P.O.W. experience — by flashing the P.O.W. card to rebut any criticism, no matter how unrelated. The captivity is already amply displayed in posters and TV advertisements."
In other news, McCain is on drugs. Hope they find him out sleepwalking during the Republican/Repitilian Convention.
Oh no! It's another AlphaLiberal recycled talking point! Run for the hills!
No, but knowing what you have is required for the most minimal competency -- the ability to make a valid will:
The requirement is that you understand the extent of your property when you're making out the will, not that you have it constantly in mind. Cindy McCain handles the couple's finances.
@AlphaLiberal:
MoDo hasn't figuring anything out since deciding to stay single (I'm, why punish some poor guy).
That "drug link" was REALLY lame.
A bit harder please- I like it bloggy style
mcg, thanks for responding to my point. But you didn't actually make a logical point why McCain being a POW has anything to do with him being so rich for so long he has not idea what life is like for people these days.
You have a bland assurance, but your argument lacks logic. McCain locked up in a prison 40-some years ago means what for Americans struggling to keep their homes?
The guys is so super-rich he doesn't know how many homes he has. That's rich and elite and people get it.
After all, McCain has said that people just need to take on an extra job. Never mind many of them already have two jobs.
Never mind what parents working all the time does to families and children.
And John McCain, son and grandson of Admirals, graduated 894 of 899 at Annapolis.
"Cindy McCain handles the couple's finances."
Hiding behind his wife's skirts.
When Kerry was a candidate and married to a multimillionaire, he was a terrible person. A "gigolo."
Now the shoe is on the other foot. Now, the right wing says it's fine for a grown man to be taken care of by his wealthy wife and to hide behind her wealth.
Hiding behind his wife's skirts. When Kerry was a candidate and married to a multimillionaire, he was a terrible person. A "gigolo."
So you agree that the Republican partisans who called him that were right, then.
Personally, I think you all need to grow up and drop the faux-macho act. There is nothing strange about a wife earning more than her husband.
But you didn't actually make a logical point why McCain being a POW has anything to do with him being so rich for so long he has not idea what life is like for people these days.
If that's your criteria, then what's the forgetting factor? Obama's been living high on the hog for awhile now, how can we say he knows what life is like?
But I don't think that's an intellectually honest person's criteria. The issue isn't whether or not the president can empathize it is whether or not he can sympathize. I think few people expect their president to have suffered precisely the same trials as they have, just whether he can appreciate their situation in a manner deeper than just intellectual. And in that context his POW experiences matter.
Besides, I don't think you really give a rats ass about empathy. It's just a cover for the fact you don't like his positions. It doesn't matter to you that Obama has never carried a baby in his belly, since he supports an effectively unlimited right for a woman to terminate that pregnancy. Talk to a pro-life woman who has faced single motherhood or difficult medical conditions during pregnancy or babies with Down's syndrome, and I'll bet the empathy argument is forgotten fast.
And John McCain, son and grandson of Admirals, graduated 894 of 899 at Annapolis.
Oh my goodness! He must have been dim as a bulb, then. At least, compared to other Annapolis graduates. Frankly I'd be fine with that comparison if I were him. It's good company.
Anyone else laugh when Leno said the biggest problem we have is the falling dollar? The dollar which recently has rebounded?
But I'm guessing for a man into Harleys, which probably need original parts available in pounds sterling, that is a BIG concern.
Let me not be too harsh on Jay.
McCain could've answered his question by saying it's good for our exports, just not for American tourists abroad -- instead he agree lightly, and moved on.
It was a very nice set-em-up-knock-em-down.
Alpha--to understand where and why McCain graduated in his class, you need to look at the total numbers of middies entering his class and how they attrit out during the four years. The last man in his class did better than the 25% that left or failed out during McCain's four years. The service academies are pretty brutal about flunking people out for a lot of reasons you would not know nor comprehend. You are citing a meaningless statistic that only underscores you total lack of knowledge about how the service academies work. (and before you ask I am a service academy graduate).
mcg, wrong. It's that I think John McCain has been exposed as a hypocrite and a liar for attacking Barack Obama as an "elitist."
McCain is the elitist in this race. He even talks down to the American people and insults our intelligence.
And, I don't think I like his policies, but he changes them so often to pander to the right it's hard to know what they are, exactly.
What I really object to is John McCain's reckless belligerence. That's my number one problem. He's dangerous - "Quick Draw McCain."
That's all well and good. But when the elitist shoe is on the other foot (cough Kerry cough) it wasn't gonna stop you from pulling the lever.
roger, that's a funny post. You're about ready for the Karl Rove School of White is Black. Or the Republican Ministry of Truth.
Here's some straight talk, my friend:
When people say "graduated X in their class" they are referring to the graduating class. That's how it's commonly understood in America.
but if you want to run with "hey, he wasn't kicked out of Annapolis," don't let me hold you back.
-----
mcg, John Kerry is also filthy rich. Yup. But John Kerry doesn't pursue policies that would make him and his wife MORE RICH and the poor more poor. That's what McSame does.
And he didn't hide behind his wife's skirts.
There's a difference there, my friend.
And, entry requirements as to academic performance, physical testing, references, athletic and leadership activities and the like are NOT waived based on one's parents--McCain still had to meet minimum standards which are more rigorous in toto than most schools in the country. As it turns out the sons and grandsons of admirals and generals know exactly what the entry requirements are. Their fathers have told them. If the sons (and daughters now) are serious about following in their parents footsteps, they prepare to meet those and are usually better prepared than their fellow cadets.
Alpha--I suspect every poster on this blog understood my post. You are simply playing the fool and behshitting yourself in the process.
Victoria, you forgot to elaborate on how McCain's evasions are "brave," as opposed to taking on the question.
----
Roger, this is pretty clear and I rebutted it:
"...you need to look at the total numbers of middies entering his class and how they attrit out during the four years."
Your second point made some sense and I hope it's true.
----
In other news, Liddy Dole is tanking. Back to Kansas!
No you didnt rebut it--you made the mistake of assuming a service academy is like every other college of university, and thought you had rebutted it. Here's a question to test your knowledge of the nature of cadet rankings: Why are cadets and middies and ranked from top to bottom of their class? When you find the answer to that, you can then put rankings in perspective. This is anecdotal, of course, but the last man in my class went on to medical school and is now on the faculty of a major med school in the NW.
AlphaLiberal said: And he [McCain] didn't hide behind his wife's skirts.
What are trying to say, McCain is some kind of pussy? Like that'll fly. You go with that alpha!
It's that I think John McCain has been exposed as a hypocrite and a liar for attacking Barack Obama as an "elitist."
There are two obvious problems with your claim.
The first is that you can't prove the claim "Barack Obama is an elitist" is a lie by trying to prove McCain is an elitist. You could potentially prove him to be a hypocrite, certainly, but even if McCain was an elitist it wouldn't mean Obama wasn't.
The second problem is that you don't know what the word elitist means. John McCain comes from an elite background, certainly. But elitism refers to either (a) belief that the country should be ruled BY the elite as a class or (b) belief that you, yourself, are superior to normal people. You could be a trillionaire and own a thousand mansions and still not be an elitist.
The charge that Obama is an elitist isn't an attack on his wealth, his job, or his education. It is an attack on how he sees himself in relation to other Americans -- specifically, it is a claim that he views himself as both mentally and morally superior to the electorate, and thereby qualified to rule over us. I think this charge is entirely accurate. His talk of people "clinging to guns and religion" gives this charge a lot of strength.
However, I think it is true of McCain, too; I think he views himself as more honorable and moral than normal Americans. But he doesn't sound as snotty as Obama when he talks about it.
You could be a trillionaire and own a thousand mansions and still not be an elitist.
By all accounts, despite his wealth and team ownerships etc. Paul Allen is a regular guy.
Much much moreso than Bill Gates.
By all accounts, despite his wealth and team ownerships etc. Paul Allen is a regular guy.
He owns Captain Kirk's chair. That makes him my kind of people no matter what his politics are. :)
LOL! ;)
Why would Harley parts be purchased in pounds sterling?
Revenant, you deserve credit for using actual logic. That's rare in these parts.
I would submit a guy who is a multi-decamillionaire is as elite as they come. That's like, you know, empirical.
And... McCain's policies serve the elite at the expense of the majority. Big difference.
There's no factual basis for this, beyond the simple fact that Obama is smart:
"...he views himself as both mentally and morally superior to the electorate, and thereby qualified to rule over us."
A lot of us see the "elite" PR push as another way to say "uppity negro."
And, let's face it, the whole manufactured "elite" debate is a bit silly as framed. They're both members of one of the most exclusive clubs in the world - the US Senate and, even rarer,US Presidential candidates.
Being smart is no sin, either. "Vote for Joe, he's as dumb as your cousin" never elected anyone, either.
"What are trying to say, McCain is some kind of pussy? Like that'll fly. You go with that alpha!"
I'm, saying, instead of manning up and answering the question he evades it by talking about his wife and her money.
Maybe I could make it simpler. . .
roger, John McCain was a poor student. a very bad student. Somewhat of a wastrel (see: George Bush).
That's a fact. Muddy the waters all you like and this fact will still be there.
You mean like your boy John Kerry? Damn, the guy was a point worse than GWB at Yale!
AlphaLiberal said...
And the logic that, if Obama would just do as McCain tells him then McCain and his cohorts won't run negative ads is an insult to anyone's intelligence. How dumb do they think the American people are? (pretty dumb)
But, on a more positive note, we finally have a high-ranking Republcian official admitting the Republican Party runs an Orwellian lying propaganda outfit.
From TPM
'Wadhams described the GOP's outfit thusly to the Denver Post: "Just consider this the Ministry of Truth."'
So Obama will stop running attack ads on McCain if he plays nice nice? Reality check; this is politics. There is no nice nice. All ads are attack ads. Some are just more subtle than others. Sheesh, grow up.
TPM? Another bastion of partisan hack journalism. BTW, Orwell was making illusions to Communism. You know, what we modern people call Democratic progressivism.
You left out Penn, the Clintonista Karl Rove, the evil brain of Hillary Clinton and the man who ran the ministry of propaganda called Hillaryland .
Oh, one other thing. I know it is hard for you to believe. It defies logic to you and goes against the grain of everything you think; George Orwell wrote fiction. It was fantasy. A big lie woven into a well told story. Next you’ll be telling us that Huck Finn is a historical figure.
"Jay Leno to John McCain: "For $1 million, how many houses do you have?"
Please. I don't answer questions for less than two million dollars.
Hey, Alpha, I know you ahte the rich. But why no mention during this whole campaign season of the hundred million dollar woman? Hillary and Bill are very wealthy and they made the money in a relatively short period of time.
So, my question is, are you only pissed at rich Republicans? There are as many venal wealthy Democrats in and out of politics. C'mon, be fair and equal. Isn't that the liberal way? Just one slam against that wealthy lady and I will leave you alone. For awhile.
You are simply playing the fool and behshitting yourself in the process.
Now there's a word that needs to get out more.
Revenant said...
However, I think it is true of McCain, too; I think he views himself as more honorable and moral than normal Americans. But he doesn't sound as snotty as Obama when he talks about it.
It all comes down to who sounds better. But, hey, they both sound better than Hillary. Man that voice could drive people insane.
"McCain is shameless! He is actually saying he can't be criticized on ANYTHING because he was a POW!"
Not unlike saying Obama can't be criticized because he's black.
I was pleased to see Jesse Jackson Jr address the convention. He will not doubt continue his father's work of campaigning against inherited privilege in America. I look forward to seeing Tim Russert's son interview him on Meet the Press when it comes his time to run for President....The biggest perk McCain was ever offered because of his father's rank was early release from POW status. But because of his father's rank--father's honor and all that--he could not accept the perk.....If you cannot admit that McCain did something very brave and honorable you are not wrong but delusional.
I would submit a guy who is a multi-decamillionaire is as elite as they come. That's like, you know, empirical.
Like I noted in my previous post, "elite" and "elitist" are two entirely different things. You can be elite without being elitist, just as you can belong to a race without being a racist.
And... McCain's policies serve the elite at the expense of the majority.
You're entitled to your religious beliefs, but there's no reason for me to believe that McCain will be worse for most people than Obama is.
There's no factual basis for [the claim that Obama is elitist]
I cited an example of him expressing elitist sentiments. He is certainly a member of the elite; he's a multimillionaire Ivy League lawyer and Senator.
A lot of us see the "elite" PR push as another way to say "uppity negro."
Republicans called Mondale an elitist, Dukakis an elitist, Clinton an elitist, Gore an elitist, and Kerry an elitist... but when they call *Obama* an elitist, it's 'cuz he's black? Is this one of those "logical arguments" you're complaining people don't make?
The biggest perk McCain was ever offered because of his father's rank was early release from POW status.
Nonsense statements like this are unproveable. Are you aware of all perks McCain has ever been offered? How did an admittedly average student get into the Naval Academy, for example?
Like I noted in my previous post, "elite" and "elitist" are two entirely different things.
Exactly! A Republican may be "elite", not much you can do about being super rich as in McCain's case -- but Democrats are "elitists", meaning they want to tell everyone what to do, unlike "elites" who.......don't.
Man, that's works out great if you
re a Republican.
So, I don't believe that BHO (who has more scholarly and reflective accomplishments than W) is dumb.
Hard to see how Obama has more scholarly accomplishments than other Presidential candidates who also graduated from professional graduate schools in medicine, business, law. He never published any scholarly articles..and his legal career was rather undistinguished compared to what other candidates have done with their professional degrees from their 20s to their mid-40s.
As for how reflective the Obamessiah - or his speechwriters make him out to be - I'll leave whether he is superior to most others who ran for President up to voters.
Voters can weigh on Obama's reflective moments, such as when he claimed his nomination was the start of His Greatness: "Future generations will mark this moment. As the moment when people began getting good jobs, the sick began to be cured, the oceans rise slowed, and the planet began to heal."
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alphaliberal - I would submit a guy who is a multi-decamillionaire is as elite as they come. That's like, you know, empirical.
You make the mistake of confusing money with having an elite attitude towards others. In Britain, where elitism and class are far greater problems than here, elitism is considered acquired behavior learned in childhood and youth. Thus the snooty daughter of a nearly bankrupt Earl can show expected elitism from schooling and upbringing, but a woman who came into tens thousands of times more money than the elitist daughter late in her life - JK Rowling - is slammed by no one as an elitist simply because she is now worth over a billion.
McCain's formative years were long before he hit the lottery with Cindy McCain. And the 40-ish goat was hardly focused on money when he met the 24-year old, hot, hot, hot ex-USC cheerleader.
The military is not an elite. It is mainly a meritocracy.
And there is no scale in America that verifies elitism as a function of wealth. You have arrogant people on food stamps convinced they are in a noble elite, better than others and down only due to victimhood...snotty university professors and political activists dripping with elitism while only in the lower middle class...and self-made men and women worth hundreds of millions with dramatically different views and behaviors related to elitism.
And observations like people saying John Kerry was a stuck-up, haughty elitist bastard long before he went from one of the poorest Senators to one of the richest by marriage. Or Senator John Tower wondering if Cindy McCain could somehow "domesticate our bad boy, because he will never be a preppie". She partially did.
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Alpha Liberal bloviated quite a bit on the Service academies. Showing remarkable ignorance in concluding they are just like liberal arts colleges and ranking is just a function of GPA.
RogerJ attempted to set him straight, but once a liberal has embraced a "truth" and a narrative to go with it, there is little one can do to correct the liberal's ignorance:
RogerJ, a damn Ringknocker, tries: No you didnt rebut it--you made the mistake of assuming a service academy is like every other college of university, and thought you had rebutted it. Here's a question to test your knowledge of the nature of cadet rankings: Why are cadets and middies and ranked from top to bottom of their class? When you find the answer to that, you can then put rankings in perspective.
To begin to understand, alpha liberal would have to know that the Academies or ROTC are just the beginning of a long attrition that goes on throughout an officers career. The goal is not to produce good students, but good leaders and warriors. And after graduation, in your career, if you don't get promoted to a limited number of ever-constricting posts & niches the military has for the next level - you are Out.
Which brings up the other common accusation also made by liberals utterly unfamiliar with military life - that failing to be promoted to Admiral or General marks the person as a "failure". Nothing is further from the truth.
How did an admittedly average student get into the Naval Academy, for example?
Was that really a BIGGER perk than being offered escape from years of future torture and imprisonment? :)
AlphaLiberal said...
mcg, John Kerry is also filthy rich. Yup. But John Kerry doesn't pursue policies that would make him and his wife MORE RICH and the poor more poor. That's what McSame does. Point, John Kerry was born rich and is a trust fund baby. He just married up; someone wealthier than he was. But since you mentioned it and since the Democrats keep harping on supposedly raising taxes on the rich:
When John Kerry ran against President Bush and they released their tax returns there was something very curious. John Kerry actually made between two and three times more than the President, yet he actually paid less in taxes than Bush. Go figure.
alright c4: and your problem with ring knockers is? :) dont forget I was trained as an engineer first and foremost! but we are wasting our breath and its a shame that the american public doesnt under my military--Sam Huntingdon, PBOH, wrote this all up in The Soldier and the State in the late 1950s
A Republican may be "elite", not much you can do about being super rich as in McCain's case -- but Democrats are "elitists", meaning they want to tell everyone what to do, unlike "elites" who.......don't.
Your sarcasm would be a little less pathetic if I hadn't already said I suspected McCain was an elitist too.
The reason Republicans are generally less vulnerable to charges of elitism is that Republicans generally advocate a "get the government out of your way" approach while Democrats advocate a "the government will solve your problems" approach. It is very hard to say that the government will solve your problems without sounding like you're saying "you can't solve your problems without my help". That's why the elitism charge tends to stick.
These days, of course, Republicans like Bush and McCain *also* bang the "the government will solve all your problems" drum. :p
Man, that's works out great if you're a Republican.
Because only Republicans know how to use a dictionary?
And the 40-ish goat was hardly focused on money when he met the 24-year old, hot, hot, hot ex-USC cheerleader.
This is why the gigolo charge isn't gonna stick. He married up in every category....
Cindy was (is!) younger, hotter, richer and had (has!) a better head for business.
Madison Man--not only was I cadet but I have taught at the academy and 13 years in other liberal arts institutions--frankly, I would take the lowest student at one of the service academies to any of the top 10 percent of the students accepted into some "prestigous" State institutions. I have seen and taught them both. I almost always respect your posts, but you are off target here. Please tell me why you think your criticism of McCain is not more colored thru your perceptual lenses than you your experience.
As for elitism, sure McCain is elite and elitist, at least in some regards.
Insofar as it matters (not much), the question is where does the elitism come in. He's not an economic elitist, or a social elitist, giving one hope that he wouldn't mess with those areas.
But the fact that he got tarred with the Keating brush seems to have convinced him that the 1st amendment is broken--decidedly the wrong conclusion to come to. That smells elitist to me.
roger j--
I'm not military, but I've been in on some hrings and having been in the miltiary gives you an edge on the resumé for sure. It's not (just) patriotism; it's the perception that nobody gets through the military without some level of ability.
That may seem like a low bar, but it's not one the universities meet.
Which brings up the other common accusation also made by liberals utterly unfamiliar with military life - that failing to be promoted to Admiral or General marks the person as a "failure". Nothing is further from the truth.
Well, yeah, he's a failure---in the sense that an Olympic bronze medalist is a failure for not winning the gold. But I think he can live with that, ya think?
Blake--you have seen the difference--its simple: the difference between a university and an academy--everyone forgets the academy part--
With all due respect to my fellow Obama skeptics, the notion that McCain's academic performance is somehow impressive is dead on arrival. Not even he tries to make that claim.
I get through these threads so fast when I scroll right by AlphaLiberal's posts. And as a bonus, I'm not dumber for having read them, as I would have been otherwise.
RogerJ -- I think it is safe to assume that there was someone somewhere coming out of high school who was far more qualified than McCain -- who ended up 5th from the bottom in his class, IIRC -- to get into the Naval Academy. Yet McCain was there, taking up a slot. Why? I think it had to do with his lineage. That's a perk. The 5:58 comment is appropriate, but my overall comment stands: saying something is the biggest perk is unproveable absent omniscience.
My comment really had more to do with entering the Naval Academy than exiting.
I think it is safe to assume that there was someone somewhere coming out of high school who was far more qualified than McCain
It's safe to assume, but it's also kind of meaningless. I'll wager there is no single objective numerical score on which the prospectives are ranked, from which they picked the top 800 or whatever. So if you get to define the criteria after the fact of who is "more qualified", you're pretty much guaranteed a win.
And this is true of just about any elite institution. For instance, I'm reasonably certain there are plenty of people who would have been better suited for, say, Harvard than our pal "Harvard" over in that other thread. It's even more pronounced in this era of affirmative action and value placed on some nebulous definition of diversity.
He graduated, and he excelled in service later. I think his qualifications to have been there at all were verified after the fact. Consider also Roger J's anecdote:
This is anecdotal, of course, but the last man in my class went on to medical school and is now on the faculty of a major med school in the NW.
Are you gonna argue that he was taking up the space of someone who should have been there instead, too? Not me. Someone's gotta be at the bottom.
Madison Man - RogerJ -- I think it is safe to assume that there was someone somewhere coming out of high school who was far more qualified than McCain -- who ended up 5th from the bottom in his class, IIRC -- to get into the Naval Academy. Yet McCain was there, taking up a slot. Why?
You assume, as does Alpha Liberal, that the Academy is interested mainly in good students who can graduate and claim they learned a lot. Not true.
The Naval and Army Academy train candidates to become leaders and warriors able to use vast amounts of information and technology and where they stand within a team in situations of high stress.
Consider McCain as one of the better investments the Naval Academy ever made, not as a non-cerebral that cost a bright nerd with the leadership and fighting qualities of a stryofoam cup - a slot.
He excelled in agressive, technical flying on the edge - as he was taught and in one of the most elite of all military professions every bit as demanding and prestigious as being a SEAL or Marine Recon officer, as a 12-year carrier fighter pilot.
He won substantial awards for his leadership in command.
And in terms of character, of warrior spirit - he is among the best the US military ever got. And is now taught to young officers and enlisted as a worthy object of emulation.
Last night on the Jay Leno show, Jay asked McCain again (in a joking way, at that) how many houses he owns.
McCain's response:
You know, could I just mention to you, Jay, and a moment of seriousness. I spent five and a half years in a prison cell, without—I didn’t have a house, I didn’t have a kitchen table, I didn’t have a table, I didn’t have a chair. And I spent those five and a half years, because—not because I wanted to get a house when I got out.
And you thought Rudy was bad with answers that all invoked 9/11.
I guess we can see what McCain will say every time he gets asked a tough question.
Q: Senator McCain, you've taken a hard line stance against the Russians in regard to Georgia, but with our army stuck in Iraq what do you plan to do about it?
A: I was a POW for five and a half years, you know.
Q: Why is it that you never talk about fixing the Social Security system, after favoring privatization for years?
A: I want social security to give me credit for the time I was in a prisoner of war camp.
Q: Senator, you've promised a high level campaign, but you've gotten nasty and negative in your attacks on Barack Obama. Why is that?
A: You should know those prisoner of war camp guards are nasty too.
Q: Do you still stand by the Paris Hilton ad?
A: Now that you bring it up, I spent five and a half years in the Hanoi Hilton.
Q: Mr. McCain, why did you vote against funding research into the development of alternative energy programs for so many years?
A: I was in a prisoner of war camp, and let me tell you I didn't spend those five and a half years just so I could drive a Prius when I got out.
Q: Senator McCain, why does your tax plan give so much money away to the super-wealthy like yourself and give nothing at all to almost half of American taxpayers?
A: When I was in a POW camp for five and a half years, I didn't pay any taxes. And I spent those five and a half years, not because I wanted to pay taxes.
Q: Why did you reverse your stance on giving a path to legalization for undocumented immigrants last year?
A: When I was a P.O.W. for five and a half years, I wanted more than anything to be in America. So now I want to make sure those people have to miss being here too.
Q: Senator, you've promised to appoint conservative judges like Alito and Roberts which would give the Supreme Court a solid conservative majority. What do you say to women who are concerned it might overturn Roe vs. Wade?
A: There weren't any women in the prisoner of war camp I was in for five and a half years.
Q: Mr. McCain, why are you promising to veto all pork projects when you yourself sponsored funding for the William H. Rehnquist Center in Phoenix?
A: We didn't get any pork when I was in a prisoner of war camp for five and a half years. In fact, we usually didn't even get enough rice.
Q: Mr. McCain, why are you so critical of the Obama health care plan when your plan can't even guarantee that everyone will be able to buy coverage at any price?
A: We didn't get very good health care when I was in a prisoner of war camp for five and a half years.
Q: Senator, one more question. The Washington Post reported on May 9 that you had pushed through legislation on a Federal land swap deal that benefitted Steven Betts, a longtime campaign contributor. At the time, Betts and his wife were listed on your campaign website as members of the financial arm of your campaign. Have you severed all ties with Betts?
A: I spent five and a half years in a prisoner of war camp.
I don't doubt that McCain suffered terribly during that time, but I want to hear what he would do as President, not have it waved in my face every time he gets asked a question he may not want to answer. Besides, remember what they did to John Kerry? At least John Kerry managed to avoid getting captured by shooting the communist that had the best chance to do it.
Hey, great job, Eli. Did you write that?
Ha ha!
http://www.prisonerofw.com/
Last night on the Jay Leno show, Jay asked McCain again (in a joking way, at that) how many houses he owns.
No kidding. Where'd you hear that? Oh yeah -- in this blog post.
McCain's response:
... is contained in the clip above. So the people reading your post know that McCain said a lot more than the selective quotation you've provided about his POW days.
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