October 23, 2007

Wisconsin students may hate the speaker — David Horowitz — but they gave him a respectful hearing.

I'm writing up the good news. I thought there might be disruption — and David Horowitz seems almost to want to bait the students into causing a publicity-getting scene when he calls his event "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week." He did get some attention, but the students showed a solid commitment to free-speech values by assembling before the lecture and chanting — the chant was "Racist, fascist, anti-gay, right-wing bigot go away" — and then listening respectfully to what Horowitz had to say.

But there was one man....
Former UW lecturer Kevin Barrett — who attracted national media attention to the university for promoting his belief that the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon were an inside military job — was in attendance and voiced opposition, disrupting Horowitz’s talk near the beginning of the lecture.
Horowitz may be a publicity whore, but he wasn't the biggest publicity whore in the room.
Barrett, who was booed by the crowd after he interrupted the speech, left the Memorial Union Theater shortly thereafter in the midst of a popular UW football tradition — the “asshole” chant.
Ha ha ha. Wisconsin students rule.

HOLD EVERYTHING: Uncle Jimbo was there! With video:



And text. Jimbo — who was "predisposed" to agree with Horowitz — thinks the reason the crowd didn't disrupt him was that he was too dull and uninspiring. He also says the students "maintained more decorum" than Horowitz, who said rude things like "Well I guess you just aren't able to read" and "I don't know what to do if you can't add two and two and get four."
It would have been a total bomb, but Ebo decided we needed a pitcher of Optimator in the Rathskeller and we spent about an hour talking with a couple of groups of folks who came in opposition to Horowitz. It was enagaging [sic], entertaining and so completely superior to the waste of time that was the theater in the theater [sic], that we resolved to attend the Muslim dialogue tomorrow night. I truly enjoyed the discussion with some folks who, although we disagreed on much, came with much more open minds and helpful attitudes than the headliner.
Ha ha. The marketplace — the tavern — of ideas.

69 comments:

AllenS said...

As with the rest of the nation, I think you have pre-9/11 Wisconsin students, and post-9/11 Wisconsin students.

Original Mike said...

...in the midst of a popular UW football tradition — the “asshole” chant.

I love that chant, when bestowed on a deserving target. And I can't think of anyone more deserving.

MadisonMan said...

My favorite part of Jimbo's writeup: afterwards they go to the Terrace for a beer! How wonderfully Wisconsin.

Original Mike said...

Optimator, no less.

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

The pub comment is more important. Many times when I lived in Canada there would be a lively political argument at the bar. Someone would drop a 20 on the bar (back when a 20 was some serious money) and holler "Switch."

The next ten minutes or so the antagonists went at it some more -- from the opposite viewpoint -- and most patrons observed the debate in silence. "Now ladies and gentlemen, by your applause ..." and whoever had best argued the opposite viewpoint was awarded the 20. Great fun, and one of the few things I really miss about Canada.

One of my three best friends in Quebec was a guy 180-degrees opposite from me on the key political question of that era -- our regular debates (over beer) were a cornerstone of our friendship.

Then again, unlike America, the Left in Canada is more gauche than sinister.

Ann Althouse said...

Bart, that's a cool game, and it reminds me of how great it is to be a law professor. I can put the question in the form of saying you're the lawyer for X, and you have to argue in the way that serves X's interests. It's so much more creative to try to make an argument than to take a side. And it's useful for learning how to make the argument for your side to understand how the other side thinks about it.

Liam said...

Man, you have to hand it to a group of students that understand the purpose of college. This would never have happened at the University of Michigan.

My hat's off to them, and that's for their decorum. The shouting down of Kevin Barrett was just icing on the cake.

Freder Frederson said...

As with the rest of the nation, I think you have pre-9/11 Wisconsin students, and post-9/11 Wisconsin students.

Or maybe the myth of the free speech suppressing intolerant left-wing dominated college campus is just something made up by the Ann Coulters and the David Horowitzes of the world so they can appear brave as they demand exorbitent appearance fees and speak truth to power on college campuses (even though they can't be heard, nobody will book them and even in those rare instances when the lone, brave, God-fearing Republican Christian on campus scrapes up the 50 or $100,000 or whatever they charge to speak, they are shouted down and assaulted before they even reach the stage--poor babies) is just that, a myth.

Maybe our college campuses are full of middle class business, accounting, and marketing majors who are more concerned with getting their degree, pledging Sigma Chi, drinking beer and landing a job with Citibank than spiking trees for Earthfirst.

MadisonMan said...

Could someone from the far left -- a militant lesbian, for example -- speak at Liberty University. Would they even be allowed in the door?

(I'm asking because I don't know).

Freder Frederson said...

This would never have happened at the University of Michigan.

Give me a freaking break. The only Big Ten school it might not happen at (the only one that might possibly fit the evil, left-wing university archetype) is Northwestern. Unless of course Michigan and the University of Michigan has for some reason gotten more radical as the rest of the midwest has gotten more conservative since I lived and went to school there (I didn't go to Michigan but another large midwestern university). I doubt it.

Randal Rogers (I. Ronin) said...

And the relationship to the private Liberty University and the public University of Wisconsin is ... ?

Freder Frederson said...

And the relationship to the private Liberty University and the public University of Wisconsin is ... ?

I see. Only public universities need to be tolerant. Private universities can be as ignorant and closeminded and suppress free speech as much as they want. So you have no problem with Harvard, Columbia or Yale (which Horowitz complains about a lot) suppressing free speech?

Liam said...

Freder:

http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2002/03/20/News/Horowitz.Lecture.Stirs.Controversy-1403011.shtml

Randal Rogers (I. Ronin) said...

Is that what I wrote, Freder? No, I asked MadisonMan what the relationship between the two was.

There is no point in responding to just about anything you write. As you demonstrate here time and again, while it may or may not be true that every person has his or her own version of reality, yours is definitely unique.

Freder Frederson said...

So Horowitz spoke and people disagreed with him. But he finished his speech and apparently there was a heated but still civil Q&A session (granted the public safety people said they were "afraid" things might get out of hand). What's your point? To me it looks like the article undermines your contention.

Do you think Ward Churchill (not that I am a fan of his) would have been treated better on Michigan's campus?

Freder Frederson said...

Is that what I wrote, Freder? No, I asked MadisonMan what the relationship between the two was.

Well no, it wasn't. You wrote a non-sensical sentence that I was just trying to figure out the meaning of. I thought you were making a distinction between public and private universities.

So I'm a little dense. What did you mean?

ricpic said...

The troglodite students doing their kneejerk racist, sexist, ant-gay chant are noble? Interesting.

Positroll said...

Ha ha ha. Wisconsin students rule.

This would never have happened at the University of Michigan.

Nov 10, noon. 'Nough said ...

MadisonMan said...

Randal: They're both Universities. One is perceived to be liberal, one is not.

There's this ongoing theme that UW -- and indeed many Universities -- are intolerant of conservative viewpoints to the point -- as daryl claimed yesterday with no supporting evidence whatsoever -- that conservatives interrupting a liberal speech at the UW would be expelled. Ridiculous notion. Last night a conservative spoke at UW. Has a liberal spoken at Liberty?

Darkbloom said...

Could someone from the far left -- a militant lesbian, for example -- speak at Liberty University. Would they even be allowed in the door?

(I'm asking because I don't know).


There is an organization called Soulforce that protests anti-gay biblical teaching at religious colleges. It was founded by Mel White, former speechwriter and ghost writer for Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and others. More than once they have been arrested for merely stepping foot on the (private) property of those colleges.

Most likely, they would have difficulty getting booked as a speaker.

Often, though, the actual students at the school are respectful and speak to them civilly when they show up, so there's no reason to necessarily believe that the students at these schools would disrupt a speech, if the schools weren't so deathly afraid of their message and let them speak.

hdhouse said...

Horowitz will speak whereever anyone pays him to do so. He isn't "free". see: http://www.aeispeakers.com/speakerbio.php?SpeakerID=512

Now I speak up for my beloved Michigan State University ... having the common sense not to pay this jackel a red cent.

ZPS said...

I don't get why "respectfully" is italicized, as if it is so necessary they be "respectful" of Horowitz. Where I come from, people have to earn respect! And someone like Horowitz hasn't earned it from me. The best thing to do would've been to just not attend the offensive event. If, however, there would've been some giant disruption and subsequent ruining of the "speech", that would've been fine too...if someone like Horowitz wants to dish out crazy, he deserves crazy in return.

ricpic said...

Spitting man runs true to form.

Randal Rogers (I. Ronin) said...

Thanks, MM. Answers my question.

Tibore said...

Switching topics to Kevin Barrett: That man is one of the most annoying combinations of delusion, narcissism, and agression I've ever seen. As the saying goes, there's nothing more dangerous than an industrious idiot, and all you have to do is see what he writes about 9/11 to realize that he takes the award for that particular category.

As I said in a previous post, thank GOD he's just a marginal crank, and actually has no real power to do anything other than annoy. Hopefully one day he'll have a moment of clarity and get over himself.

Jennifer said...

That's wonderful. I'm impressed! I have a feeling things would have gone a little differently at my University of Oregon, but I'll never know. There were only a few proposed conservative events in the entire four years I went there, and the opposition was so great that none of them ever actually happened.

Liam said...

Yah, well I grew up in Ann Arbor. One of the last things you can call the U of M is tolerant of all viewpoints.

All I can say is that Horowitz didnt need security guards escorting him around Madison...

SGT Ted said...

"Racist, fascist, anti-gay, right-wing bigot go away"

Wow, that really refuted Horowitz's ideas. At least they didn't attack him or bum rush the stage as other college radicals have done to him before.

And the thing about Universities being intolerant of Conservatives...well Freder, if you want to pretend otherwise go right ahead. The fact is leftwing radicals and murderers are regularly invited to speak without much fanfare, while conservatie speakers are usually met with the above chants and attempts to disrupt the speaker and shut the event down.

Trooper York said...

Al Swearengen: They butt into other people's business; and make the business of other's their own - these bought-out, no good cocksuckers.
Tom Mason: Hickok, you talkin' bout?
Al Swearengen: Oh, fuckin' big shot he is.
Persimon Phil: Big fuckin' shot, when he's standing in front of you.
Al Swearengen: One in his ear from behind, I'd like to see how fucking tough he was.
(Deadwood 2004)

Freder Frederson said...

The fact is leftwing radicals and murderers are regularly invited to speak without much fanfare, while conservatie speakers are usually met with the above chants and attempts to disrupt the speaker and shut the event down.

Excuse me? Murderers? To whom are you referring. And are you telling me that Ann Coulter is not one of the most sought after speakers on college campuses. In fact I bet that if you judged it by speakers' fees (which of course is how good right wingers should judge such things) or even dates booked, the Ann Coulters, Sean Hannitys, and David Horowitzes probably make more money and speak at more college campuses telling college students how colleges won't let them speak freely and hate capitalism (and whine endlessly about the one speech in 50 where things get out of hand because they deliberately taunt students) than any "leftwing radical or murderer".

Trooper York said...

“My own experience is that a certain kind of genius among students is best brought out in bed.”
Allen Ginsberg quote

Ann Althouse said...

I put "respectfully" in quotes because it's from the article. Nothing more. I'm not being sarcastic. And what deserves respect is not Horowitz's opinions, but the setting of a lecture where someone is brought in to speak do a group and requires the audience not to drown him out. It's respect not only for the speaker's position as speaker, but for the group that made the effort and spent the money to bring him in and for the people in the audience who took the trouble to show up. You don't usurp that (except in the most extraordinary situations).

As for the chant, it wasn't during the speech. I'm praising the students for putting their speech in the right framework, not saying I agree with the accusations or find them "noble."

MadisonMan said...

Sgt Ted, I agree with freder. Liberals speak more at campuses because liberals talk for less. Conservative speakers are out to make a buck.

No facts were used in writing those three sentences above, by the way.

Market forces dictate who will talk.

Clues? said...

"Dull and uninspiring," for sure. If I came looking for real fireworks (e.g., statements even remotely racist, sexist, fascist or anti-gay) I was sorely disappointed. Instead, the speaker's TARGET is the most dangerous group of racists, sexists, fascists and anti-gays on the planet. I don't recall mention of a single fact that wasn't either obvious or easily discoverable. All common knowledge and platitudes. Very "dull." And no pepper spray? No tasers?

I absolutely agree with Ann about the undue attention the speaker gave his fake-laughing hecklers in the room. From a practical standpoint, it's not constructive to reward such behavior with attention. And from an idealist standpoint, more hate is not the proper response to hate. (He wasn't "hating" by merely disagreeing; rather it was by his condescending tone and demeaning manner in response to the hecklers' hatred.)

And while the facts were all presented from which the speaker could have made an impassioned plea for compassion for the victims of islamo-fascism, instead his tone was mostly angry, and his focus was often on his own detractors. These I found truly uninspiring.

Trooper York said...

'Are you truly slave, Mira?' asked the girl.
Mira cast a glance at me.
'You may respond,' I told her.
'Yes, I am a slave,' said Mira, 'totally.'
'What was he doing to you, before?' ask the girl.
'You watched?' asked Mira.
'Yes,' said the girl.
'He was enjoying me and using me as what I am, a slave,' she said.
'Are you embarrassed?' asked the girl.
'No,' said Mira. 'A slave is not permitted modesty.'
'You seemed ecstatic with pleasure, overcome with gratitude and joy,' said the girl.
'It was my yielding.' she said.
'Need you have yielded like that?' asked the girl.
'Yes,' said Mira, 'The slave is given no alternative other than to yield to the master fully.'
'But you would want to yield like that, wouldn't you?' asked the girl.
'Yes' said Mira.
'Then the slave is forced to do what she, in her most secret heart, most deeply desires to do,' said the girl.
'Yes,' said Mira. 'But you must understand that a slave's lot is not an easy one. We are often worked long and hard.'
'But is there not a pleasure in such a service?' asked the girl.
'At one time I would not have thought so,' said Mira, 'but I know now, now that I am an owned slave, that there is.'
(Blood Brothers of GOR, John Norman)

SMGalbraith said...

Market forces dictate who will talk

Who knew Smithian economics was so in vogue on our campuses?

Learn something new every day on the internet.

SMG

Luckyoldson said...

They should consider putting this inside the dust jacket of any future books by Horowitz: ""Racist, fascist, anti-gay, right-wing bigot..."

It would appeal to his primary audience.

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper,
Sooooooooooooooooo, we get the Sox after all.

People there depressed?

Trooper York said...

No Lucky, I think the Rockies are on a magic carpet ride and I hope they can win it all. I could never,ever root for the Red Sox. The only time I ever pulled for them was in 1986. Everyone knows I am a big time Yankee fan, so the Met fans would bust my balls: "Hey the American leauge sucks, blah, blah, blah." So they wanted to wager. I said no way, I can't root for the Sawx but when the numbers went to 10-1, there was nothing to do but cover the action because there was too much money to be made. So I felt pretty good until Bill Buckner did his thing. So even though I am a big American Leauge guy, GO ROCKIES.

Trooper York said...

I think I just broke the record for starting sentences with the word "So". What a hoot.

Paul Zrimsek said...

But I know sometimes I must get out in the light
Better leave her behind with the kids, they're alright
The kids are alright.
(The Who, 1965)

SGT Ted said...

LOS,

What is your source that Horowitz is a bigot or that his target audience are bigots? Is it because they disagree with your ideas?

Freder/madisonman

The idea that leftwing speakers don't charge the going rate for their speaking engagements is laughable. Hell, Michael Moore-on charges 50k per blab-fest.

Freder Frederson said...

The idea that leftwing speakers don't charge the going rate for their speaking engagements is laughable. Hell, Michael Moore-on charges 50k per blab-fest.

Where on earth did I say that. All I said is that right wing speakers are among the most highly compensated and sought after on the college circuit, belying the claim that they are some oppressed group that can't get a gig because of "The Man". I don't think Ann Coulter is so damn skinny because she can't afford food.

Luckyoldson said...

Sgt Ted,
Well, let's start with this:

"Everybody knows -- but no one wants to say -- that the Democratic Party has become the party of special interest bigots and racial dividers.

It runs the one-party state that controls public services in every major inner city, including the corrupt and failing school systems in which half the students -- mainly African American and Hispanic -- are denied a shot at the American dream.

It is the party of race preferences which separate American citizens on the basis of skin color providing privileges to a handful of ethnic and racial groups in a nation of nearly a thousand.

The Democratic Party has shown that it will go to the wall to preserve the racist laws which enforce these preferences, and to defend the racist school systems that destroy the lives of millions of children every year." –David Horowtiz, "Challenging the Racist Democrats in California," August 5, 2003"

OR:


The David Horowitz Freedom Center's Discover the Networks website was criticized when it first launched for a jump page picturing entertainment celebrities such as Bruce Springsteen and Barbra Streisand adjacent to radical Muslim terrorists.

Horowitz said this was "an entirely innocent feature of the site",[10] but now divides the pictures on the jump page into distinct categories.

OR:

On MSNBC's Scarborough Country, right-wing activist David Horowitz claimed that "[t]here are 50,000 professors" who are "anti-American" and "identify with the terrorists." There are just over 400,000 tenured and tenure-track full-time university professors in the United States.

If Horowitz's numbers are accurate, that means approximately one out of every eight tenured or tenure-track college and university professors is a terrorist sympathizer.

OR ;

"Perhaps the gay community can learn something from the Jews. Try as some of them might, Jews will never be regarded as entirely "normal" in a predominantly Christian society. That doesn't seem to have stopped their progress."

LawGiver said...

So Horowitz calls the Democrats bigots and racial dividers and in LOS's book that makes him a bigot?

What a hoot!

hdhouse said...

freder....i agree with your assessment of ann coulter...but didn't you mean "she is so damn skinny BECAUSE every time I see her I throw up".

Luckyoldson said...

LawGiver said..."So Horowitz calls the Democrats bigots and racial dividers and in LOS's book that makes him a bigot?"

Well, yeah, I would consider such a charge to be false, bigoted and downright stupid.

And I also think telling the gay community that they could learn an important life lesson if they keep in mind that; "Jews will never be regarded as entirely 'normal'"

Oh, and I suppose many of the Universities and professors throughout America would find his assertion that; "50,000 professors" who are 'anti-American' and 'identify with the terrorists'"...a tad off-base.

And...his bizarre "jump page picturing entertainment celebrities such as Bruce Springsteen and Barbra Streisand adjacent to radical Muslim terrorists"...seems a bit much for one who isn't bigoted or racist.

Of course, contrary to yourself, I attended and graduated from a fine Midwestern University, and continue to actually educate myself.

*By the way...when is that list of good things G.W. has done for America showing up?

No guts?

AlphaLiberal said...

David Horowitz has been proven to be a liar dozens, maybe hundreds of times. Here's the latest Horowitz lie from his "Hate Muslims" campaign:

"Drexel confirms it is not part of Islamo-Facism Week.

Earlier today, ThinkProgress noted how David Horowitz is dishonestly inflating the number of schools participating in his “clownish” Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week. According to a Drexel University student who wrote to TPM, “there are no speakers, movies, or other events planned, and there has been no announcement of TAW either” at the school, despite being listed on Horowitz’s website as a participating school. "

AlphaLiberal said...

Here's an illuminating and funny video about David Horowitz. He goes ballistic over a satirical poster, claims he "can't go to a campus and speak. " I need bodyguards!"

Yeah, sounds like he was really threatened at the UW.

The video also points out that one of the photos they use was taken from a European movie, not about an actual event. What a liar.
--------------------
The idea that the men in caves are going to enslave the world under a caliphate is cuh-razy.

AlphaLiberal said...

Students at students at Tufts and Temple also report that there are no IFAW events, despite David Horowitz listing those universities as sites.

I enter these as Horowitz lie # 4,567 and Horowitz lie # 4,568.

SGT Ted said...

LOS,

I fail to see the bigotry you claim to see. Are you drunk?

I actually agree whole heartedly with his assessment of the Democrat party of today. It certainly isn't Republicans that racial hucksters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton hang with.

Horowitz lives in Los Angeles and has accurately described the damage that the corrupt teachers unions have dealt to the school system there. Again, it ain't Republicans that get campaign cash from those unions. I live here in California too. He is right on the money.

The Dems certainly divide by race categories. They do it all the time. They count on it, and useful idiots like yourself, to parrot "racist bigot homophobes" at anyone who dares to disagreee with your party line, but especially at apostates from the leftwing plantation like Horowitz, who dares expose them for what they are.

And he should know, because he was once of your mindset until he realized just how morally and intellectually bankrupt is modern leftism. it took the murder of one of his close friends by your fellow travelers to wake him up.

If 9/11 didn't wake you up LOS, I'd say nothing will.

Also, Horowitz is a Jew. I'd espect he knows more about how Jews have been viewed in the history of this country than you do.

SGT Ted said...

LOS,

What does pictures of some leftwing celebrities next to Muslims have to do with Hrorwitz being a racist or a bigot? You are making no sense.

LawGiver said...

LOS said,

Well, yeah, I would consider such a charge to be false, bigoted and downright stupid.

I have never heard the "Well he's a racist because he falsely and stupidly calls Democrats racists" meme before.

Too funny.

LawGiver said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Danny said...

"Also, Horowitz is a Jew. I'd espect he knows more about how Jews have been viewed in the history of this country than you do."

This is not true.

Jack said...

"whine endlessly about the one speech in 50 where things get out of hand"
And it's not even that. Not even close. I have been involved with two large public universities in my state for decades, and of the hundreds and hundreds of events that have occurred over the years, only one was disrupted by demonstrators.

A second came close: An appearance by Michael Moore that was disrupted early by a group of right-wing students who were harrassing people trying to enter the theater.

The issue is that conservatives revel in their victim status.

Jack said...

Here's an illuminating and funny video about David Horowitz. He goes ballistic over a satirical poster, claims he "can't go to a campus and speak. " I need bodyguards!"

Ah hahahaha!

Thanks for the link, AlphaLiberal, that was sidesplitting.

Horowitz is such a typical conservative: all whiny and proclaiming his victimhood. That prick has gotten rich pretending to be a victim, and convincing his credulous and stupid followers that they are victims, too.

"The left is a hate group." :D

ROFL.

Clues? said...

danny, the article you linked to does not say Horowitz is not Jewish. Google him and you'll find he is, in fact, Jewish.

I'm particularly sensitive to racist and sexist comments, and I attended listening intently for any such inflammatory content. As mentioned in the original post, the talk was "dull." There was nothing really inflammatory presented.

On the other hand, if the term "racist" has nothing to do with race, but instead is just a term applied to someone you don't agree with, as LOS seems to be suggesting, then I suppose I heard many "racist" comments...

Danny said...

You don't need Google someone named Horowitz to find out whether they're Jewish. The point of the link was to show how far removed he is from the actual American Jewish community.

Clues? said...

Jack, you're right on, he was a whiner. He was up there presenting the desperate plight of millions of moderate muslims, a worthy cause by anyone's standards, but then he kept getting sidetracked into whining about his personal detractors. Great opportunity... mostly wasted.

SGT Ted said...

Using some sort of leftwing identity group to refute what Horowitz is saying doesn't address his points about how Islam is practiced in countries run by Muslims.

Clues? said...

Crying "Wolf":

Did anyone else notice Alice-in-Wonderland disconnect between the slogan chanted by some students ("Racist, fascist, anti-gay, right-wing bigot go away") and the actual content of the speaker's presentation? If I were new to the topic and just wanted to sample what was going on at the Terrace that night, I'd have been left confused. Or worse, I'd be tempted to discount future such protests... And that is sad.

Now, I understand that protests are generated by emotion and reaction, based on prior offenses (real or imagined), and they aren't always executed in a tactically effective manner. But this one had to be a tactical disaster. If I'm trying to persuade someone who's otherwise apathetic that racism and bigotry are problems worth doing something about, why protest a speaker who is targeting the worst offenders of racism and bigotry in the world?

Perhaps the flashpoint was the use of the prefix "Islamo" to describe this type of fascism. I'm not sure what other term to use, and as far as I know, no alternative term has been offered by the moderate muslim community. (If a useful alternative has been offered, please let me know.) In fact, as I understand, the very term "islamo-fascist" was coined by moderate muslims in Algeria. But, for the sake of argument, imagine the prefix was lengthened to "pseudo-islamo," suggesting that these fascists are fake muslims. Would that have resolved the matter? ...

I'm left with the image of a frightened boy in whose eyes are reflected a leering wolf...

PatCA said...

I think it is wonderful that Horowitz and his crew are finally speaking on campuses, as boring or wrong or whatever each speaker might be. At least their side got to be voiced, and the lefties knew they had to behave or look like thugs. It sort of takes the steam out of the radical MSU; maybe people can finally listen and talk about these issues instead of being bullied by speech codes and their protectors. Jimbo and his friend experienced the vaunted "dialogue" as a result. Isn't that what the left keeps saying we need?

Apparently dialogue was happening at the Berkeley event too! http://www.zombietime.com/darwish_berkeley/

Apparently Al Jazeera was interviewing two people on opposing sides, and the argument went on into the night...
"They continued arguing for no less than two hours after the lecture was over, and then apparently retired to a nearby cafe to keep fighting after some refreshments."

Sounds like a great week so far.

Luckyoldson said...

Danny said..."Also, Horowitz is a Jew. I'd espect he knows more about how Jews have been viewed in the history of this country than you do."

Well, if you espect it...then it must be true.

Duh.

Luckyoldson said...

Sgt.
I can understand why you and Lawgiver both think Horowitz is a fine fellow...but why would I give a flying fuck what two wingnuts think?

You two also believe Bush is a terrific President and that we should stay in Iraq forever.

Dumb and Dumber.

LawGiver said...

but why would I give a flying fuck what two wingnuts think?

Who knows why you care about anything you care about?

I just enjoy catching you saying incredibly stupid things like Horowitz is a racist because he calls Democrats racists.

Your attempts to deny, deflect, and redirect are just too funny.

What a hoot!

Clues? said...

I'll ask again in case anyone knowledgeable is still reading this string: is there a serviceable alternative to the term "islamofascism" that would describe this strain of fascism without causing offense to moderate muslims (if in fact any are offended)? What is referenced is certainly different from other forms of fascism, being based on an interpretation of a particular text or tradition. If there really isn't a good alternative, then perhaps the "offense" needs to be reconsidered. Given the magnitude of the atrocities committed against moderate muslims and others, we need to be able to discuss these issues openly with words that mean something. As I mentioned above, the very term "islamofascism" appears to have been coined by moderate muslims in Algeria, so its original pedigree is not racist.

In short, is there no proper way to bring awareness to this problem? Or, instead, will anyone who tries be branded a racist hatemonger, despite his or her compassionate intentions?

The clues are beginning to add up...

Clues? said...

Still trying to discern the point of protesting a speaker who is siding WITH you against racists, bigots, anti-gays, and fascists. Why is raising awareness of these particular offenses taboo? Hmmm. What makes these different? It's not that the level of harm is insignificant. Torture, execution, mutilation. Not mere hurt sensitivities, which passes for "harm" in America. Is it POSSIBLE that the protesters aren't really concerned about the very things they shout? Is such protesting just an opportunity to be hateful in a socially acceptable way? Hmmm...

The pieces are beginning to take shape...

Clues? said...

Ann, thanks for the forum. I needed a place to process my experience from the event, read others' thoughts, and make some sense from what I witnessed.

Peace.