Nancy Pelosi covers her head and visits the head of John the Baptist.
So Nancy Pelosi is visiting Syria, and President Bush is calling it "unhelpful." There's plenty of political theater here. The most telling fact, in my view, is that Republican members of Congress have gone to Syria too. So I'm not getting roped in by this little politidrama.
Much is being made of a photograph of Pelosi wearing a scarf on her head -- "Pelosi in Hijab" -- as she goes to visit a mosque that houses the head of the beheaded saint, John the Baptist. Is she bowing to Muslim oppression? She's wearing the scarf folded and tied under the chin in a style long used by American women. The mosque is the one Pope John Paul II visited. And it's a Christian tradition for women to cover their heads. In the words of St. Paul:
ADDED: Pelosi also wore an abaya. Not a Christian tradition. She also shook hands with the women inside and "watch[ed]" the men.
YET MORE: Here's Amanda Marcotte's summary of this post: "Ann Althouse wants Pelosi to be a little bit more of a sexbot." Whaa? Marcotte seems to be pulling in signals from outer space. Just flat out nutty, Amanda. Or did you even read this post? (Loser.)
AND: Amanda tries to cover up her blundering and I respond to that here.
Much is being made of a photograph of Pelosi wearing a scarf on her head -- "Pelosi in Hijab" -- as she goes to visit a mosque that houses the head of the beheaded saint, John the Baptist. Is she bowing to Muslim oppression? She's wearing the scarf folded and tied under the chin in a style long used by American women. The mosque is the one Pope John Paul II visited. And it's a Christian tradition for women to cover their heads. In the words of St. Paul:
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head—it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if anyone is disposed to be contentious— we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God. (1 Corinthians 11:2-16)You may not like that. I don't. But, clearly, headcovering is not just a Muslim thing. But even if it were, showing respect for the traditions of a place of worship you want to enter is completely appropriate. It's not as if she were asked to denounce Christianity to enter the mosque. The mosque was open to her as a place to worship a Christian relic, and she made the sign of the cross in there.
ADDED: Pelosi also wore an abaya. Not a Christian tradition. She also shook hands with the women inside and "watch[ed]" the men.
YET MORE: Here's Amanda Marcotte's summary of this post: "Ann Althouse wants Pelosi to be a little bit more of a sexbot." Whaa? Marcotte seems to be pulling in signals from outer space. Just flat out nutty, Amanda. Or did you even read this post? (Loser.)
AND: Amanda tries to cover up her blundering and I respond to that here.
Labels: Amanda Marcotte, fashion, feminism, foreign affairs, God, Pelosi, Pope, religion
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posted by Ann Althouse at 7:23 AM
238 Comments:
Ann, didn't you get the fax of the Right Wing Talking Points yet? I'll send you my copy.
;->
She also wore an abaya.
Other women in her delegation were wearing normal western clothes, as do most Syrians.
Sorry, I don't buy it that she was being respectful. The #3 person in the succession of power in the U.S. isn't supposed to kow tow. If a substantial chunk of the world's Catholic population declared war on the U.S. and Bush (a non-Catholic) had a papal audience and made a show of fingering rosary beads and kissing the Pope's ring, I'd be equally perturbed.
I have mixed feelings about Pelosi's visit there. Her history of nasty rhetoric against Pres. Bush implies that her visit to Syria is part of this nasty rhetoric. Thus, I get a feeling of anti-americanism from the whole scene and that the purpose of her trip is to undermine the policies of the President and ferment more partisanship and discontent in the world.
Regarding the head scarf, I don't see a problem with us adopting their customs when we visit or live in their countries. It is the polite thing to do. However, I wish they would do the same here. I am tired of walking around Minneapolis seeing people dressed up like it is Halloween. If they want to live in America and live off the fruits of the society that the people here worked hard to create and are working to continue, they should at least have the decency to try and behave like Americans when they are outside their homes. Wearing muslim or bedoin garb is not American.
The point of her trip is to stick a finger in Bush's eye. She should stay there.
Sloan: Do the Amish and the Hassidim bother you too? Should they get with the program? I thought the program here was freedom, especially religious freedom.
Joe. Yeah, but she only accomplishes that if you let what she's doing bug you.
The bottom line in my book is that she bowed down in dhimmitude to ugliness. What would Armani do?
The most telling fact, in my view, is that Republican members of Congress have gone to Syria too.
This doesn't mean it's not unhelpful. It just means that the Dem's don't have a monopoly on circular firing squads.
Ann, it's the cumulative effect of the Democrats' politicization of the war on terror that bugs me. This is just one more act in that despicable pattern.
Althouse, while the Amish Pilgrim garb is old fashion, it is still in American tradition. The muslim dress is not.
Yes people have religious freedom, but much of the garb they wear is not related to religion, it's related to culture.
Well this puts Brittany's headshaving in an entirely new light. But seriously folks...
Don't you think that there is a little more here than meets the eye? As much as Washington and particularly Bush's diplomacy or lack thereof seems random and completely without focus, Nancy turning up, something spur of the moment and Bush's proforma "ohhh no no no".
Actually it isn't a bad ploy if you think about it.
There is another picture of Pelosi with The Syrian dictator. She is not wearing a head dress.
As much as I despise Pelosi and her snake tounge and socialist ideas, the picture makes me proud to be an American - to see a woman standing next to a dictator who we all know has no respect for her. Everyone knows who is more powerful... I have to laugh, I hope the women of the middle east are also laughing (in silence of course).
Rep. Pelosi looked like any number of Catholic Women I will see in church this Sunday. I think she looks much older when her hair is covered.
Republicans want to harp on Pelosi because they have nothing substantive to offer the American people.
House, of all the conspiracy theories you have floated, the idea that Nancy Pelosi is actually working on behalf of the Administration in her visit to Assad, is perhaps the most far-fetched. To get to that point, you would have to assume that Pelosi is willing to put partisan politics in the back seat, cooperate with her sworn political rival, betray her political base, and do so all the while espousing a public position of hating and disrespecting Bush. This is on a par with the theories that every time a Democratic politician does something nuts, that Karl Rove must have ordered it. To reach your conclusion, one must rely on a series of increasingly implausible assumptions, the only evidence of which is that there is no evidence - a lack of evidence being one hallmark of clandestine activities. In other words, 'because you deny that there is a conspiracy, you have given me definitive proof that there is one, since denying the existence of a conspiracy is consistent with the behavior of a conspirator.'
Or, in bad Hollywood cliche terms, this is the kind of theory, "that is so crazy, it just might work."
DHIMMITUDE!
The Amish are not attempting to subvert the culture that surrounds them. They believe in religious tolerance. Islam, by it's very nature, abuses all other religious practitioners as infidels, apostates, and non-believers.
There is a difference between religious covering as an act of piety and relgious covering as an act of aggression to subjugate women. The coverings cited are no different than requiring Jews to wear the Star during Nazism.
I agree with David about the Amish. An addition, the muslim garb shows disrespect for American culture, whereas the Amish garb has long been accepted and we all know that the Amish are not trying to disrespect us by wearing it. The jury is still out on the muslim immigrants. They should show some respect by not complaining about or demanding that we accomodate their religion or culture. They are free to practice their religion on their own. However when they demand special working enviornments or special privleges in the name of their religion, it is not polite.
Farid Ghadry, Reform Syria Party: Reckless is the best way to describe Nancy Pelosi's latest in-your-face attempt at upstaging George W. Bush foreign policy. Assad is viewing her trip as a green light to take over Lebanon the way Saddam viewed Glapsie's lack of interference as a green light to invade Kuwait.
http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2007/04/assad_ready_for.php
"Congressman Tom Lantos, who is a member of the delegation that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is leading to Syria, put the mission clearly when he said: We have an alternative Democratic foreign policy.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/04/democrats_playing_with_fire.html
Pelosi's office: As recommended by the Iraq Study Group, a bipartisan delegation led by Speaker Pelosi intends to discuss a wide range of security issues affecting the United States and the Middle East with representatives of governments in the region, including Syria.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/03312007/news/nationalnews/miss_syria_nationalnews_ian_bishop.htm
Perhaps she'll return declaring Peace in Our Time.
While I can appreciate the reality here, it is the look that is really important. Personally, not being Catholic and thus not being used to seeing women with their heads covered (except sometimes by hats) in church, I didn't realize the difference between a Christain way of doing it and a Moslem way.
So, we will probably be seeing this picture more as time goes on and the next election nears. It appears like she is practicing multiculteralism with the dictator whose country is on our list of states supporting terrorism. Never mind that she was more likely practicing her own religion.
"House, of all the conspiracy theories you have floated, the idea that Nancy Pelosi is actually working on behalf of the Administration in her visit to Assad, is perhaps the most far-fetched."
Interestingly enough, this is a theory that didn't cross my mind until I read the comments!
I am not a Nancy Pelosi fan. But she is Catholic. And she is my age (67). Catholic female people of my vintage customarily cover their heads when in Church.
I think it uncharitable to presume that the scarfwearing is anything more than a traditional symbol of resepect.
Agree with vnjagvet.
When in Rome, do as Romans do.
Pelosi's scarfwearing is nothing but show of respect.
Tying things together a bit, what is she doing in Syria in the first place? Does she really think that she can make a difference in the Middle East? Does she really think that the Iraqi people want Syria and Iran involved in determining the fate of their country?
As I see it, Syria is really just acting like a spoiler here. It isn't really providing troops to oppose the Iraqi government, but rather just letting the Saudis, etc. filter through in order to join al Qaeda. The money and people are almost all coming from other countries.
The place where Syria is playing an active role is in Lebannon, in effectively occupying the country for a period time, in murdering Lebanese politicians, and in giving some support ot Hizb'Allah. But that is far more relevant to Israel than to Iraq right now.
Besides, even if she could get an agreement from Syria, so what? Why should we trust them? We have had agreements with them before, and when convenient, they have violated them.
It is not just that Syria is a listed terrorist supporting state. But also, that the only thing that Pelosi has to offer them is making Bush look bad - which undermines the war in Iraq.
Al Mavia - Like it or not - and you probably don't - Pelosi is a patriot first. All the other crap you metion about her is what you would "like to think" and not what is.
There has never been a time in the history of this nation INCLUDING both world wars and countless other conflicts when wise heads didn't establish back channels, messengers, etc. and it is against all reason to believe that this administration, inept as it is, would pass up a chance to have a message carried into that neck of the woods.
Please stop being so blinded by your hatred of what Bush has caused to overlook diplomacy 101.
Does she really think that she can make a difference in the Middle East?
I have no idea. I don't know if she knows. Paraphrasing the Great One, though, you do miss every shot you never take. (Which partly explains why I support the Surge, for now).
In French neighborhoods, non-Muslim women have learned to similarly to show "respect" by donning a head scarf, or be subject to taunts and harassment.
This is a bigger issue than a brief show of respect. Maybe Pelosi was showing respect, although why a dictator funding war against the US deserves respect is unclear, but she was also showing her subservience at the same time, whether intended or not.
If the Democrat peace plan wins, she can get used to wearing the head scarf full time. You know, to show respect.
vnjagvet;
You of all people should understand the significance of symbolism and perception.
Pelosi's actions are wrong on so many levels that they are either stunning in their naievete or equally stunning in their arrogance.
In any case, she is playing right into the mass propaganda being aired on Islamic media to Muslims worldwide. Emboldening our enemy encourages attacks on western interests by the lunatic fringe and will result in the deaths of American soldiers, infidels, apostates, non-believers, and various innocents in the wrong place at the wrong time.
and it is against all reason to believe that this administration, inept as it is, would pass up a chance to have a message carried into that neck of the woods.
FWIW, State says they briefed Pelosi on Syrian but did not endorse her mission or send her along with foreign policy initiatives.
three comments:
1. Fen beat me to it. I was troubled by the Lantos statement. In the long run we're in trouble if our parties undertake overseas foreign policy actions independent of the Executive.
"Congressman Tom Lantos, who is a member of the delegation that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is leading to Syria, put the mission clearly when he said: We have an alternative Democratic foreign policy.
2. WRT Sloan.. and Muslim immigrants. I have no issue with legal immigrants willing to assimilate. I have a problem with colonists.
3. Pelosi as a patriot? OK, according to her view I'll accept that. Then I remember that great Cheney line:
I'm not questioning her patriotism, I'm questioning her judgement
Nothing but a show of respect? As I noted before, she's wearing the Abaya as well.
It would have been really super duper respectful of other people' cultures if she'd worn the niqab, or the burka. We'd still be cool with that?
BTW, all the talk about Catholic head coverings... I actually go to church and few Catholic women do wear a head covering or veil, mostly older women, or women who are traditionalists, i.e. adherents to the traditional latin / tridentine right services. I think most secular journalists would classify them as 'ultraconservative,' as opposed to the characterization of 'moderate' Catholics who support gay marriage and abortion rights. (We practicing Catholics, veiled and unveiled, refer to them, quite fondly, as 'heretics' or sometimes 'protestants').
Yeah, whatever House.
Just you believin' it, don't make it so.
I'm actually more disturbed about Lantos. Although his politics are generally way more liberal than mine, I've always generally agreed with him on human rights issues. Now he and Nancy the SuperPatriot are cuddling up to the regime that flattened a city with artillery, killing ~10,000 people, in order to send a message that their political dissent would not be tolerated.
Syria is also the point of transit for most of the foreign AQ fighters entering Iraq to kill U.S. soldiers, and many of the weapons. Cuddlling up to that regime, in contravention of U.S. policy, is a hell of a funny way to support the troops...
Never mind that she was more likely practicing her own religion.
I started out to protest that Pelosi wasn't following Catholic precepts, because to my knowledge, Vatican II had dropped the requirement for women to wear head-coverings. But then I realized that I didn't know the actual history, and a quick search led me to this historical discussion. So it appears that Pelosi was following Catholic doctrine after all.
The questions I have, though: is that just a coincidence? Does Pelosi wear a veil at Mass at home? (Can she even participate in a Mass in Syria?)
Regardless of all that, I find it completely inappropriate for the Democrats to be promulgating their own foreign policy like this. I equally condemn any Republican who has seen fit to travel to Syria or anywhere else outside of the directions of the administration.
What Al Maviva said. Thrice.
All those who condemn Pelosi for wearing headscarf: do you also condemn Laura Bush? She wore a headscarf when visiting Al-Aqsa mosque.
I'm all for showing respect when visiting other countries. I'm a little concerned about reciprocity in this regard, though, so I'd like to ask: does Assad's wife wear a bikini to the beach when they visit the West?
Sheesh, any of you people ever been to a Jewish wedding? Did you get all bent out of shape because you were asked to put on a yarmulke?
does Assad's wife wear a bikini to the beach when they visit the West?
I wouldn't be surprised if she did. Now that we have deposed Saddam, Syria is the most secular country left in the middle east (besides Israel). Remember, the Baathists are secular Arab nationalists and socialists who hate Islamic fundamentalism. That is why Al Qaeda and Saddam, as much as they both despised the U.S., could never quite see eye to eye. OBL considered Saddam an apostate.
Riddle me this: why is a christian relic in a mosque? Why couldn't it be inside of a church or a cathedral?
Wow, Ann, your right wing friends started off their morning with a good cup of Starbucks. Barely do they even discuss the fact that a Republican delegation is visiting Syria at the same time or that many any American including this lady have worn a scarf while visiting a Muslim country. Trumped up outrage is a very funny thing.
"... she is my age (67). Catholic female people of my vintage customarily cover their heads when in Church. "
Must be a European and US thing. My mom and grandmother are older than that, and I've never seen them cover their head in Church.
Re: "Trumped up outrage"
Pelosi went over to Syria with "an alternative Democratic foreign policy". The Republicans did not.
It borders on treason.
And the head scarf?
As I said, she'd better get used to wearing it. In France, England, and Spain. Maybe here, if the Democrats prevail.
Must be a European and US thing. My mom and grandmother are older than that, and I've never seen them cover their head in Church
The only women I see covering thier head in Church when I go appear to be born during the Great Depression and even then, I can count on one hand the number I see who do.
In any event, I could care less if she wore a headscarf or a burqa. I am a firm believer of the phrase when in Rome...
I think what has a lot of people in a twist over this is that we bend over backwards to 'respect other cultures' when overseas yet seem to bend over backwards to do the same in our own country such as having to make concessions to immigrants when our customs or tradtions conflict with thiers, Muslim or otherwise.
Invisible Man said...
Wow, Ann, your right wing friends started off their morning with a good cup of Starbucks.
I think the point is that the Syrians and not very nice people who are working hard to kill Americans and destabilize Iraq and to kill Israelis and destabilize Lebanon.
They are on the DoS Terrorist State list, and we want to alter their behavior not condone it.
freelance diplomatic efforts send the wrong signals
I think there is a difference between any old Representative and the Speaker of the House. Pelosi is third in line to be President in terms of succession. While a Representative going may be a minor annoyance, having such a high-ranking official go gives it the imprimatur of official American foreign policy-making. And since the Founders passed a statute barring anyone but an administration from setting the foreign policy of the country and that statute is still on the books, the question is what is Pelosi doing other than annoying the administration? Though her station implies otherwise, she cannot make any deals or promises because that would be illegal.
Pogo,
Do you know anything about wearing headscarves in Europe? Your posts strongly suggest otherwise.
In several countries (e.g. France, Turkey), there is a ban on headscarves in public schools, for secular reasons. Somehow, I doubt such bans would pass legal muster in the USA.
And your "borders on treason" claim is so ridiculous as to not merit a response.
The drill sgt:
I see some merit to claims that foreign policy should be primarily conducted by the executive.
Normally, I would agree.
However, by his irresponsible, cavalier, plain ignorant conduct of foreign policy Bush forfeited this right.
When did Republicans become such adolescents? Speaking to a another country, even one that is our enemy, doesn't imply that you are somehow submitting to their will. This country has throughout its history spoken to all manor of enemies and somehow we still don't speak Russian or with a British accent. This implied notion that Pelosi is going over their to kneel at Ahmadinejad's feet and accept him as our king is what I'm feeling out of these silly posts. Again Reagan had state dinners with a country with Nuclear Weapons pointed at us, who supplied weapons to terrorists to kill Americans and openly had conversations about wiping us off the face of the earth. That's called diplomacy not surrender.
However, by his irresponsible, cavalier, plain ignorant conduct of foreign policy Bush forfeited this right.
Um. No. Pelosi would be in violation of the law -- a specific statute -- if she "conducted foreign policy" with Syria. There is no forfeiture of the President's foreign affairs power here and the concept of forfeiture in this context really makes no sense.
Mark: However, by his irresponsible, cavalier, plain ignorant conduct of foreign policy Bush forfeited this right
Well thats disappointing. I guess if I believe a President Hillary's foreign policy is irresponsible & ignorant, I can violate the Logan Act. Hell, John Kerry got away with it, why can't I? Maybe I can trade away NYC for 2 more years of "peace".
Re: "Do you know anything about wearing headscarves in Europe?"
Read about it, start with Mark Steyn.
Yes, France is trying to abolish head scarves. Their little problem with "youths" rioting continues, however, most recently in the area by the Eiffel tower.
They are doomed.
Treason is what it is, by the way, when any elected official but the President tries to practice foriegn policy overseas in opposition to the administration. You can call it whatever you like, but it's against our Constitution.
This country has throughout its history spoken to all manor of enemies and somehow we still don't speak Russian or with a British accent.
Bush's position is that we have already exhausted diplomatic efforts with Syria, and that US/EU officials should ostracize Syria until they are willing to change their ways. Congress-critters [of any stripe] sitting down to reopen negoitiations with Syria is no better than letting a spoiled child play his Mother against his Father.
ahhhh now Pogo ups the ante to "boardline treason". Oh brother. you Johnny-one-notes are a hoot.
and as to your blatant hypocracy:
Sunday, April 1, 2007; 7:03 PM
DAMASCUS, Syria -- U.S. House members meeting with President Bashar Assad Sunday said they believed there was an opportunity for dialogue with the Syrian leadership.
The U.S. House members, who included Virginia Republican Frank Wolf, Pennsylvania Republican Joe Pitts and Alabama Republican Robert Aderholt, also said they had raised with Syrian officials the issue of stopping the alleged flow of foreign fighters from Syria to Iraq.
and the beat goes on....and the beat goes on...
Pogo:
There is noone more ignorant and more wrong about anything having to do with foreign policy than Mark Steyn. The man is literally wrong and uninformed on every single issue. Nice to note that you admit that France banned headscarves in schools. As they say, noone is entitled to his own facts.
Fen:
I didn't mean that Pelosi or anyone can violate law because I disagree with President's policy. My point was that normally I would prefer that foreign policy trips be coordinated with President. But in this case, I believe Bush forfeited this courtesy right.
The trip itself is not a violation of any law; otherwise Pelosi would not have undertaken the trip. All I was saying that normally I would prefer that such high-ranking trips be coordinated with the executive, but not with THIS executive. That's my opinion.
Read about it, start with Mark Steyn
Bush's position is...
Now we just need John Bolton to complete this little wingnut mutant trifecta circle-jerk. No wonder you guys are always so miserable at the world you see.
Re: "There is noone more ignorant and more wrong ...than Mark Steyn."
You're a bigger fool than I would have first posited.
"Nice to note that you admit that France banned headscarves...."
And you missed my point. While they fiddle with stupid anti-Muslim regs, women who actually live in Muslim dominated neighborhoods have taken to wearing head scarves just to avoid persecution by local "youths".
And those Muslim "youths" are still rioting and burning cars in France.
France is lost to Islam. I give it less than 10 years.
And any insult from naked lunch I consider evidence of my being right.
Democrats' politicization of the war on terror
Stop! I can't laugh this much in one day!
Hey, whatever happened to the Terror Color Alert? You know, the scale that changed everytime Bush had a bad day in the press.
I'm born well after WWII, and I've worn a scarf in church many times. I didn't like it, and it played a role in questioning my faith over time, but it is certainly a common practice in the fundamentalist church I attended, as well as in the Catholic churches that dominate here in New Orleans. I often see women, young women included, wrapping a scarf as they enter the church.
However, I no longer practice that custom. That's my choice.
Pogo:
Lol. You think that in ten year France will be a de facto (or de jure) Muslim state? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let althouse, you, and me still be around in ten years. I will then visit the French Riviera and sunbathe topless on the beach with other French ladies and send the picture to you and Ann.
Possibly she can be excused because she was in a place of worship. But how do we excuse the female reporters this morning in the Amanutjob conference who were wearing scarves. Is this news conference a place of worship or can we at least admit that they are caving into a repressive regime and enabling future repression by caving in.
I would think that this would offend you as much as the bloggers and feminists who pervert their feminist agenda to kneel at the feet of Clinton. We give a little here on principles and a little bit there and soon we have no principles to stand on. Oh....wait....nevermind. Pelosi=Democrat=no principles anyway.
Eliz....right on. I was just thinking about that the other day...where is my orange alert button?...i think the last time was after the dem. convention when kerry spiked.
guess we are safe afterall.
hey you republicans who think that Pelosi is commiting treason.... you musta missed this .. posted earlier.....
Sunday, April 1, 2007; 7:03 PM
DAMASCUS, Syria -- U.S. House members meeting with President Bashar Assad Sunday said they believed there was an opportunity for dialogue with the Syrian leadership.
The U.S. House members, who included Virginia Republican Frank Wolf, Pennsylvania Republican Joe Pitts and Alabama Republican Robert Aderholt, also said they had raised with Syrian officials the issue of stopping the alleged flow of foreign fighters from Syria to Iraq......
you guys are sooo easy.
Bush's position is that we have already exhausted diplomatic efforts with Syria . . .
Bush throws up his hands and declares diplomacy a waste of time faster than any president this country has ever known. The only thing surprising about his tack toward Syria is that he hasn't called in a full-scale invasion yet.
Seriously, why is it that you people automatically lodge accusations of "cuddling up" the minute that anyone dares engage in some sort of communication with a foreign head of state? It just makes me chuckle whenever I hear one of you guys insist that "all options remain on the table" -- all options except actual diplomacy, of course. We should still consider starting a full-scale war and blasting the other country to smithereens, but diplomacy, heavens no, that would be horrible!
Pogo,
It's you who are being fool. Mark Steyn is an ignorant bigot with ZERO accuracy as far as his prediction regarding Iraq and the Middle East in general. If he were setting our policy, we would have been in a state of war with the rest of the world.
Try reading someone, you know, less ignorant.
Dust Bunny: The reason the reporters were wearing headscarves is b/c Iranian law requires it and they could be arrested for not wearing hijab. "According to the law, a woman who does not cover her hair and body in public can be fined or imprisoned for up to two months."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6213854.stm
Maureen Dowd wrote a column a few years ago about how she got in trouble for not being sufficiently modest -- that may have been in Saudi Arabia though. Anyway, the law is probably the reasons the reporters were wearing hibab.
The republicans who went to Syria, a country that destroyed democracy in Lebanon, and are facilitatting the deaths of my comrades in Iraq are equally as guilty.
I am not an apologist for any polictical party hdhouse, if you are looking for one, I suggest you look in the mirror.
Mark: However, by his irresponsible, cavalier, plain ignorant conduct of foreign policy Bush forfeited this right
Yeay! That means the president can start submitting budgets!
I will then visit the French Riviera and sunbathe topless on the beach with other French ladies and send the picture to you and Ann.
Is that a promise? Because in 10 years, such a venture will result in you being stoned to death.
Dust Bunny: The reason the reporters were wearing headscarves is b/c Iranian law requires it and they could be arrested for not wearing hijab. "According to the law, a woman who does not cover her hair and body in public can be fined or imprisoned for up to two months."
I know this. This doesn't make it right to compromise your principles. It used to be illegal for blacks to sit in the front of the bus or drink out of the same water fountain as whites.
As representatives of their news companies or even more as representatives of our government I would expect that the women of USA would show themselves to be better than female equivilants of "Uncle Toms". If they don't have at least that motivation, how about some self respect.
"Riddle me this: why is a christian relic in a mosque? Why couldn't it be inside of a church or a cathedral?"
I think John the Baptist's head is in quite a few places, but this is the one that Muslims think is the one. But significantly, Pope John Paul II paid his respects to this one.
I think "unhelpful" is a fair description of Pelosi's activities. That Republicans have also visited Syria isn't really a defense, since they weren't high-profile figures like Pelosi is. For better or worse, Pelosi is a government leader of a branch that is not supposed to be conducting foreign policy -- that power rests with the executive so that the country may speak with one voice when dealing with foreign powers.
However, I do not think the harm done by her is very significant (the world already knows our government is divided), and the harsher rhetoric from some pundits is uncalled for.
I would, however, say that I am highly amused that so many of the people who screamed and pitched a fit over the Executive allegedly horning in on Legislative powers see nothing wrong with the reverse happening.
"I know this. This doesn't make it right to compromise your principles. It used to be illegal for blacks to sit in the front of the bus or drink out of the same water fountain as whites.
As representatives of their news companies or even more as representatives of our government I would expect that the women of USA would show themselves to be better than female equivilants of "Uncle Toms". If they don't have at least that motivation, how about some self respect. "
Ahhh....so you're saying Western female reporters should not wear headscarves, get arrested, get sent home, and then not be able to report from Iran? I certainly agree that civil disobedience is a good way to change laws, but I don't see how they could continue to do their jobs in Iran if they started not wearing headscarves and wore shorts when it was hot. For example, reporters in the South during the civil rights movement probably sympathized with protesters, but they didn't jump in front of the water cannons or chain themselves with protesters in solidarity; instead they reported on what was happening. I could still retain my self-respect and wear a head-scarf if I were visiting Iran.
Ahhh....so you're saying Western female reporters should not wear headscarves, get arrested, get sent home, and then not be able to report from Iran?
Yes!!
I certainly agree that civil disobedience is a good way to change laws, but I don't see how they could continue to do their jobs in Iran if they started not wearing headscarves and wore shorts when it was hot. For example, reporters in the South during the civil rights movement probably sympathized with protesters, but they didn't jump in front of the water cannons or chain themselves with protesters in solidarity; instead they reported on what was happening.
This is exactly the issue. The reporters and especially the female reporters, whom I hold to a higher standard, are NOT reporting what is happening to women in these countries. They are not reporting the spread of Sharia law in Europe and in the United States. They are not crying out about the injustice to women, children and even to homosexuals. Instead the reporting is partisan and agenda filtered in many cases.
Inaction in the face of tryany and injustice is what brought us the last World War.
I could still retain my self-respect and wear a head-scarf if I were visiting Iran.
I couldn't.
Hey, whatever happened to the Terror Color Alert? You know, the scale that changed everytime Bush had a bad day in the press.
I agree. We are getting complacent in our own safety. I was wondering the other day why we haven't been attacked here in America since 9-11. It's been 5 1/2 years and not even a car bomb.
Obviously it has nothing to do with anything Bush has done.. i.e, the wars in the middle east, the patriot act, the water boarding, the wiretapping, the financial tracing.... etc... etc...????
Maybe we will find out under President Obama...when he puts in an end to all of these terrible programs that defile our rights and make us unpopular in the world.
"This is exactly the issue. The reporters and especially the female reporters, whom I hold to a higher standard, are NOT reporting what is happening to women in these countries. They are not reporting the spread of Sharia law in Europe and in the United States. They are not crying out about the injustice to women, children and even to homosexuals. Instead the reporting is partisan and agenda filtered in many cases.
Inaction in the face of tryany and injustice is what brought us the last World War."
I certainly agree the press could do a better job reporting on the situation of women in Muslim countries, and the spread of sharia law which is antithetical to Western values. But, I disagree that the press is not reporting on it. Do a google search for "women iran news" and you'll see plenty of articles on the oppression of women. The fact is, what are we supposed to do about it? Invade and impose American law? NOT send reporters so we know what's going on? Under your logic women should never visit Iran, or if they do they should go for the sole purpose of civil disobedience.
Re: "Try reading someone, you know, less ignorant."
How about "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali?
She says virtually the same thing.
France and Spain will be part of the Caliphate. You can't fight the demographics. French people simply aren't reproducing. The birth wards are all-Muslim these days. Wonder how that'll affect the head scarf laws in a few years?
Good for you Ann:
"showing respect for the traditions of a place of worship you want to enter is completely appropriate"
I agree! And I don't understand why the tightie righties demand our leaders show disrespect toward Islam.
Laura Bush sure didn't when she wore the head scarf.
I was wondering the other day why we haven't been attacked here in America since 9-11.
I was wondering why you always forget the anthrax attacks.
Ann: I think the issue is that the are not concentric but simply linked parts of one larger set of buildings...started as this, addition added in 13th century etc., not so much bulding over the top of. for instance the colonades that you see in most of the pictures were actually party of a roman temple of jupiter.
Pogo,
While Ms. Ali is a pretty impressive woman, she gives about as biased a view on Muslims in the west as you can find. Is there a problem with integrating Muslims in the West? Yes. Will France and Spain start forcing women to wear head scarves and change the Constitution to include Sharia in the next 20 years? Not a chance in hell. Hyperbole like this doesn't really help.
MadisonMan, much as the anthrax attacks occurred just a week after the September 11, 2001 attack on the Twin Towers, most put them together as one of a series of attacks. But the others didn't happen as planned.
So yes, we were attacked within 7 days after 9-11. Not since then, however. A pretty good record.
Now that England has capitulated aqnd aplogized for Iran's terror kidnappings, they can expect many more of the same.
"Not a chance in hell."
I hope you're right.
I'm betting you're wrong.
Hyperbole?
Every damn week I read about terror attacks in some part of the globe, all done by guys named Mohammed. What a strange coincidence.
But ask yourself, if you are so convinced of the Islamic desire to live peaceably among us, are you willing to make a life-size chocolate Mohammed and his chocolate child bride?
I doubt it.
And why do I need any other proof than what the Islamofascists say themselves? As Hasan Nasrallah, leader of Hizbollah, famously advised the West: "We don't want anything from you. We just want to eliminate you."
Why shouldn't I believe him?
"a pretty impressive woman"??
Gee, that's swell of you. But you know better than a woman who lived under the thumb of Islam ....why exactly?
I was wondering why you always forget the anthrax attacks.
Yes okay I will amend my prior statement. How come we have not been attacked since 9-11 and the Anthrax attacks 5 1/2 years ago. Come on... not even another measly anthrax attack!
The U.S. House members, who included Virginia Republican Frank Wolf, Pennsylvania Republican Joe Pitts and Alabama Republican Robert Aderholt
Again, none of those representatives are Speaker of the House. The Speaker of the House is the third in line of succession to be President. She is a high-ranking member of government and has a greater obligation to the public than a mere representative.
Nor did any of those mere representatives pass messages from one government to another, in essence "conducting foreign policy" on behalf of the nation with the imprimatur of legitimacy even though it is in plain violation of the law.
Pelosi may be more than "unhelpful" and bordering on "counterproductive". The Syrians are not really in a position to give her (or really anyone) much of anything in Iraq. They are mostly just turning a blind eye to the Sunni money and terrorists flowing through their country into Iraq.
So, yes, they could work more diligently to stem the flow, but what would we have to give in trade? More of a say in Iraq? At best, that would require giving the Sunni Arabs there more of a say than is justified by their 15% or so of the population, not something that we really can or should do with a democracy in Iraq.
Now Iran is a different story. They are apparently not just funneling money and arms into Iraq, but it also appears that some of their special forces type troops are involved there (and have been caught there).
But this is again part of the confusion that seems to muddy the perceptions of many of those, like Pelosi, on the left, of what is going on in Iraq. While both Iran and Syria are both on our list of states supporting terrorism, and both are at least minimally involved in Iraq, their involvement is quite different.
And their involvement is going to continue to be different. Syria cannot afford to take the activist role in Iraq that Iran has. They likely are very worried that if we do discover Syrian arms, or worse, troops, in Iraq, we are likely to implement regime change there, with extreme prejudice. Something that we can't realistically do for any number of reasons with Iran.
Good Lord,
If Ms. Ali is biased, it's the bias of proximity and being predisposed to staying alive.
If she surrendered her obsession with the latter perhaps this would all go away. Just ask Theo.
And why do I need any other proof than what the Islamofascists say themselves? As Hasan Nasrallah, leader of Hizbollah, famously advised the West: "We don't want anything from you. We just want to eliminate you."
on a little point of levity, didn't the Alien in Independence Day say pretty much the same lines?:
President Thomas Whitmore: What do you want us to do?
Captured Alien: Die. Die.
The French and Spanish are doing that today by refusing to breed.
Come on... not even another measly anthrax attack!
I vaguely recall reading that the mastermind (alleged) behind anthrax died in the plane crash in Nov 2001. I think it was on a conspiracy website somewhere, though. A true statement you can make is that there have been no (successful) attacks on US soil since the invasion of Iraq.
Pogo, I will read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book (21 copies available in the Madison Library, so I'm still down on the reserve list) with the same jaundiced eye that I give other a disaster is coming books. You don't believe Global Warming alarmist books. Apparently you do believe Islamofascism alarmist books.
Elizabeth here are a couple of examples of politicizing the war: complaining that there are not enough troops there, until Bush wants to send more troops, then opposing that. Passing a meaningless resolution against the war that will never become law, but which does in fact encourage the enemy and betray our troops. I am sure I could come up with plenty more examples given some time.
Pelosi is a tool of the enemy, and apparently so are you and your fellow Dems. And all to score points against Bush. Despicable.
Re: "You don't believe Global Warming alarmist books. Apparently you do believe Islamofascism alarmist books."
I believe my own lying damn eyes.
I have no faith in Al Gore. None at all.
And why you are not an alarmist when every single week there is an act of violence by Islam against the West is passing strange. If I wait for you guys to get "alarmed", we'll be dead.
My advice? Bear arms.