Althouse: "Punk culture and ideals promote all body types, all sexualities, all genders and all esthetics."

April 6, 2006

"Punk culture and ideals promote all body types, all sexualities, all genders and all esthetics."

Punk, Madison style: Slutfest.

86 comments:

SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/6/06, 11:05 PM
Palladian said...: I would love to hear what John Lydon would have to say to this weird mutation of multi-culti identity pablum.

If "punk culture" promotes all this diversity, why the hell do they all look the same? Walk down St. Mark's Place in New York (avoiding the crowds of Japanese youths waiting outside the bumper crop of Japanese restaurants that have recently popped up there) and you'll still see the same fat girls with carefully torn fishnet stockings and streaks of magenta in their dyed jet hair, studied crudeness issuing from their black-lined pierced lips, their boyfriends, Westchester boys in scumbag drag, skulking in their shadows, their carefully ill-fitting pants held together with safetypins- mimeographs of copies of photographs of sleazeballs from 1977.

There's nothing avant-garde about decadence. It's a symptom of a terminal illness. There's no reason to celebrate decline.; 4/6/06, 11:32 PM
chuck b. said...: I don't think punk means the same thing or serves the same purposes everywhere it manifests. The Madison scene is going to be different than the scene on either coast or the south. Let them enjoy Slutfest.; 4/7/06, 12:34 AM
michael farris said...: Once more the Althouse commentariat displays how litle they understand that which lies just outside their cozy comfort circle.

I never became a punk but I known a bunch and always had a great appreciation for them (once I got to know them). The following are a couple of quick observations (may be dated, from the 80's):

Punk is partly a 12 step program without the 12 steps. The punk scene is a magnet for alienated (usually smart) kids with a low hypocrisy threshhold. The punk-cycle is obvious to anyone who hangs around them for any length of time. I've known lots of people who went thru the program and came out happier and better adjusted than they were going in (or would have been otherwise).

The clothes and appearance are to separate out the losers from the okay people. If you react too strongly in any particular way (negatively _or_ positively) you're a loser (though the occasional understated compliment is okay as is occasional joking criticism). If you can ignore the look and deal with them as people, then you're one of the okay people.

How to tell if someone is a punk: Ask them. If they say no, then they're not. If they say yes, then they're a poser. If they say "What does that mean?" or "That's a meaningless question.", then they are.; 4/7/06, 1:39 AM
Palladian said...: Blah, blah, blah. Just another sad vestige of tribalism.; 4/7/06, 2:04 AM
goesh said...: No wonder religious fanatics want to kill us all; 4/7/06, 6:49 AM
knox said...: ""It's great to have a community come together, of all different kinds of people, to be able to discuss and relate to one another."

WTF? If that's punk then punk's dead. Boringness!; 4/7/06, 7:37 AM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 4/7/06, 8:04 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Sippican: Great post, but I have to take a sentence out of it. Here it is with one deltion:

"Once more the Althouse commentariat displays how litle they understand that which lies just outside their cozy comfort circle."

Really? Does it now? Do tell!

While you're telling us all about this, why don't you tell us how many times you played bass with Smegma and the Nuns. Why don't you tell me how many years you lived upstairs over the Rat in Kenmore Square in Boston. Why don't you tell me the name of the doorman, who let you in all the time to sit in the bar because he knew you, and knew you had no money, and let you watch the Carz still with a z at the end of their name, or GG Allin or the Dogmatics or Human Sexual Response. Why don't you tell us how many shows you went to at the Living Room in Providence, to see Lou Miami and the Cosmetix. No, not that Living Room, the original one. How many times did you perform there, exactly?

How many times did you turn down a performance at the Paradise Club on Commonwealth, opening up for The Plasmatics, because [deletion].

I've seen your friends, Mr. world weary adventurer, and if they dressed up in poodle skirts and danced to Four Freshman records, or wore zoot suits and danced to Louis Jordan songs, they couldn't possibly look more dated and derivative. Although the music would be better.

Why don't you go to http://www.bostongroupienews.com/BGNInMemorium.htm

and see what happened to all these real people? They're all dead, in the most pathetic and lame fashion. So why don't you tell us, mr expert on such matters that's no doubt ever been outside a college campus or a cubicle, all about why this pale imitation of poor miserable dead people is such a hoot.

Gee, I hope I didn't harsh your mellow.; 4/7/06, 8:15 AM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 8:24 AM
Icepick said...: Holy crap! GG Allin makes an appearance in the Althouse blog! Okay, I need to go lie down now, I'm feeling a bit light-headed....; 4/7/06, 9:35 AM
somefeller said...: I'm with chuck b. Let them have some fun at their festival, even if the fashions and music are a bit derivative of what came out years ago.

Could be worse. These kids could've decided to become neo-hippies. All things being equal, better a circa-1977 safety-pin and leather jacket look than tie die.; 4/7/06, 10:39 AM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 10:51 AM
LordSomber said...: Hmmm. Punk-Affiliates have de-emphasized traditional attention-mongering in Hipster Outreach; they're solely concerned with assembling a winning coalition of ‘The Globally Concerned.’ Sadly, they will find that attitude very hard to shift, in witness whereof we can see how the top figures in the scene have cold-shouldered any questioning of motives. Is this shot in the foot merely a case of the ‘Dummies’ or are these unwitting self-parodies designed from the start to fail?
It may be that this is a necessary stage in the lifecycle of a played-out meme.; 4/7/06, 11:02 AM
Danny said...: Lately the Althouse comments section has resembled social hour at the old folk's institution. There's virtually no stimulating discussion--it's all complaining at others, nad by 'others' I mean anyone who isn't middle-aged and leaning to the right.

Nicole has applied for grants, sat through meetings, pursued co-sponsorships and set up fundraisers for this festival. As a Madison student she could've easily fallen in with 'the get drunk/find stranger/have sex/forget it all' crowd. Slutfest is a Madison tradition and it's always a good time, I'll be going there tonight to check out a few bands.; 4/7/06, 11:34 AM
jeff said...: "I want to be different."
"You mean just like everyone else?"

I know I'm quoting but I have not idea who or what.; 4/7/06, 11:43 AM
Icepick said...: Danny, has it occurred to you that perhaps people who remember the original punk rock movement from 30 years ago may simply be bored with seeing people badly imitate that now ancient scene? And how many times have we seen it regurgitated now? Just because it's new-to-you doesn't mean it isn't hackneyed and trite at this point.

And all of this reminds me of how much my wife enjoys driving through downtown Orlando on Friday or Saturday nights. All the kids are out with their blue mohawks and safety pins, and she always says the same thing: "Ah, look at all the little baby punkers! They're just so cute!" And then she starts giggling. So much for the Revolution....

VW: poodl; 4/7/06, 11:54 AM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 12:18 PM
Danny said...: I'm not going to even address all the leather jackets and safety pin comments, you'll see none of that at Slutfest or really any other underground show in Madison. I do understand where you're coming from (complaining about the younger generation), the great thing about the internet is it gives you a medium to express opinions that are otherwise met with a bored sigh.; 4/7/06, 1:34 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "applied for grants, sat through meetings, pursued co-sponsorships and set up fundraisers"

These activities don't exactly sound youthful, Danny. In any event, what I found interesting about the quote I featured is that it sounded like the usual expression of Madisonian diversity values -- thoroughly bland too.; 4/7/06, 1:42 PM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 3:38 PM
Jeff with one 'f' said...: "Punk culture and ideals promote all body types, all sexualities, all genders and all esthetics,"

Bullshit. Punk "promotes" nothing, except perhaps the DIY ethos. It certainly rejects many things, especially on the basis of aesthetics. Punk began as an implicit rejection of both the hippie scene and it's corporate rock spawn. This woman is basically a hippie in punk dress, her taste in music nonwithstanding.; 4/7/06, 3:54 PM
Danny said...: "These activities don't exactly sound youthful, Danny. In any event, what I found interesting about the quote I featured is that it sounded like the usual expression of Madisonian diversity values -- thoroughly bland too."

I've applied for grants through multiple campus and city commissions and the fact of the matter is a successful application needs to be inundated with words like 'diversity', 'inclusion' and boy do they love 'gender'. Of course it's bland bull**it, but that's the formula needed to secure funding from university, city and state arts boards. It's a ridiculously annoying process but it succeeds in that it weeds out grants going to events like Pat McCurdy's Backyard Barbacue or a Packers' Fan Rally.

Nicole has works extremely hard every year to get the festival running, an event that raises funds for Planned Parenthood and the Madison Warming Center. I get the sense that it's a lot of fun to crack jokes on how we're pathetic and misguided adolescents, but Nicole is one of the most hard-working and responsible members of the Madison music community. If you're looking for a demographic of youth who are "spinning their wheels" I'd advise you to walk the length of Langdon St. (essentially frat row) at 2 am this weekend.; 4/7/06, 4:22 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Danny: No one questioned whether Nicole works hard or whether the concerts are nice or worth funding. The question was about the meaning of "punk culture and ideals." You're saying what is needed to "secure funding from university, city and state arts boards." When did punk culture become a matter of securing funding? When did complying with "a ridiculously annoying process" become a punk concept? It strikes me as the antithesis of punk -- not that I'm purporting to be an expert on the subject. I'm just bemused.; 4/7/06, 5:26 PM
Danny said...: Nicole wanted to make a festival that is bigger than an E. Side basement show but still independant of corporate influence. If she pays seg fees to the University, of course she can tap into those funds to pay for gas for touring bands. Nicole isn't striving to make a profit, she's putting in the work to make her event a success. You seem to equate 'punk' with laziness, would you do the same for hip-hop or folk or any other often-political subculture?; 4/7/06, 6:26 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Danny: I think art -- not just punk, though perhaps especially punk -- should be independent of the kinds of conventional minds that make arts grants. Am I impressed by people who get grants? I'm impressed by their business acument.; 4/7/06, 6:38 PM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 6:51 PM
Palladian said...: Sippican, will you marry me?; 4/7/06, 6:55 PM
Jeff with one 'f' said...: Punk is, if anything, DIY.

Do It Yourself.

Not, Get the Government and the University to Do it For You.

Expecting the government and society to pay for your fun is the essence of the 60's hippie entitlement mentality. By the time the punks showed up, the Great Society had burnt out and nobody expected any kind of a handout from anyone. In fact, they mostly expected to get punched in the face!; 4/7/06, 7:09 PM
Danny said...: Ann: I think it came down to a choice between charging admission at the door vs. getting a couple grants to cover the small costs. Whichever is more acceptable is a matter of personal opinion, but I've never met anyone who'd prefer the former.

nedludd et al: If you are saying that 'punk' has changed since 1960-1980, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Times change, music changes and the older generation is always there to reminisce/whine to anyone who is willing to listen.; 4/7/06, 7:33 PM
chuck b. said...: If you take any scene too seriously, it's going to disappoint you sooner or later. No reason to project disappointment on to everyone else.; 4/7/06, 7:45 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Danny, you're relying very heavily on the assumption that young is better than old, and you may think some of us are relying too heavily on the notion that original is better than copy, but I think the question is where are the good values? If we are to think that there are some good values that fall under the label "punk," what are they? And do you have them?; 4/7/06, 7:54 PM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 7:55 PM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 7:57 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "I can't believe you all are being so snarky about someone who organized a music concert."

I think we're being snarky about the assertion about "punk culture and ideals" that was made by the person who organized the concert. Why shouldn't we be?; 4/7/06, 8:11 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Well, Geoduck, you just don't seem to care in the slightest about punk or other cultural values. You're just hoping the kids will stay clean and not get into trouble. If that's your standard, fine. There's nothing to talk about.; 4/7/06, 8:24 PM
Palladian said...: "Palladian- It's a tempting offer of course, but Mrs Sippican would be displeased.

And let's not start another polygamy thread"

Not only polygamy, but also gay marriage! Two good things that taste great together!

Apologies to Mrs Sippican!

---

I think the most punk thing to do would be to follow Pascal's advice: the sole cause of man's unhappiness is that he does not know how to stay quietly in his room. Forget the crap music and the pablum about "punk culture and ideals" (that sounds suspiciously like some liberal arts university's diversity policy). Stay at home. Be quiet.

I still don't understand why some commenters can't seem to understand that we are making fun of this woman's silly statement. If you want to have a music festival, fine. Can the crap sociological pronouncements (Woodstock was not a religious event, forget that mythos!), stop looking for grants and instead sell something to raise money. Do it up super cheap. Have your music festival.; 4/7/06, 8:54 PM
Palladian said...: The better question, geoduck, is why?; 4/7/06, 9:13 PM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 10:12 PM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/7/06, 10:39 PM
X said...: Leave it to Althouse to start a long literate discussion about whether it is Punk Rock to go to comittee meetings. I have to say that I lean towards the bemused and nostalgic 'they'll grow out of it too' view of things, but how sadly un-slutty is slutfest going to be if they're bragging how there aren't gonna be any leather jackets or safety pins there?; 4/7/06, 11:34 PM
Palladian said...: Wow, Provincetown is too gay for me, and I'm gay. Hats off to you and the Mrs.

All this talk of public space and spheres and socializing is giving me hives. I'm a misanthrope. I have a misanthrope festival in my house each night while I'm practicing my Pascal- no public monies required.; 4/7/06, 11:41 PM
Danny said...: Sippican is right. Even though all of my friends were there at the festval, and even though I heard some incredible music and even though the night was topped off with fifteen of us jumping in the awesomely frigid Lake Mendota, I had no fun last night. Instead of taking part in the aformentioned uber-PC and exclusively 'punk' activities, I should've lined up outside a bar for 45 minutes with a fake ID so I could enter an over-packed room and purchase a Miller Lite for $5. Now go and tell me how fun and un-PC it is to wake up the next morning having no idea what you did last night.; 4/8/06, 10:27 AM
somefeller said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 4/8/06, 11:11 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Somefeller: " It seems to me that "punk rock" means whatever most people who consider themselves part of the punk rock scene at a given time and place think it means. "

Go back to the original post. That was my point: "Punk, Madison style." It's not so much what it says about punk as what it says about Madison.; 4/8/06, 11:20 AM
X said...: You don't have to stay in this little hermetically sealed world you've constructed where only the "good" people with aything worthwhile to talk about do the exact same things you do. This is where the error happens and a lot of punks end up living a more narrow and unadventurous life than the frat boys they spit on.

A-frickin'-men, Lindsey.

In defense of the slut kids, though, seeing everything in terms of mindless black and white and pink is pretty darn punk rock. Which I guess is why I liked Velocity Girl more than Fugazi or Blatz back in the day (and still today).

BTW, does anyone remember the classic seven inchers that pmunuvra put out on WV records back in '91 or so? Great stuff-- sort of like a sludgier Victim's Family.; 4/8/06, 11:21 AM
X said...: I wonder why it bothers people that Danny had fun last night at a music festival?

Who has said that this bothers them? Lindsey and I are somewhat bothered that he seems to have a somewhat constricted idea of what can be fun, but hey, he's like 20 and will probably grow out of it. I know that I did, and so did (most of) my snotty friends.; 4/8/06, 11:51 AM
somefeller said...: "Go back to the original post. That was my point: "Punk, Madison style." It's not so much what it says about punk as what it says about Madison."

I understand that. Much of the discussion on the board, however, has dealt with whether or not the festival and its sponsors are really "punk rock" or not, not about the extent to which Madison's local culture influences the festival and its participants. That's what I was responding to, and why I focused on the punk, not the Madison.; 4/8/06, 11:58 AM
Danny said...: Hi Sarah!; 4/8/06, 12:58 PM
X said...: A note of apology to the Madison kids-- I've been confusing Danny's and Geoduck's comments above, and it's Geoduck who's been the source of most of the self-righteousness, constriction and general NO FUN here.
I still think that the sophomoric high seriousness of "punk cultures and ideals promote...." is silly, that it's just plain sad that punk turned out to be a sober and self-serious tradition instead of a brief burst of fireworks inspiring future kids to make something truly new and their own, and that going to committee meetings and throwing a party with other people's money is pretty far from DIY. However, I'd probably go if I were in Madison, since some of the bands sound like they might be OK, and it would be an opportunity to corrupt boys in raggedy Misfits shirts.

PS Nichole: Way to make me want to not hump my computer by talking about tofu farts and thinking it's clever not to capitalize things.; 4/8/06, 1:14 PM
somefeller said...: Townleybomb said: "going to committee meetings and throwing a party with other people's money is pretty far from DIY".

I don't know, going to meetings and throwing a party with other people's money sounds like a pretty good description of what Malcolm Maclaren did with EMI and other record labels during the short life of the Sex Pistols. So while it may or not be DIY, it is arguably very punk rock.

I believe there is only one way to settle this discussion. Ann, you need to take Nicole and Sarah out for coffee at your favorite local Madison cafe. The experience will be good for all involved, I'm sure. Take photos, please.; 4/8/06, 1:32 PM
X said...: I think you should just be happy that I'm not going to try to get everyone to talk about Habermas and public space again.

Holy damn that makes me happier than the Ramones (or having decided not to go for a Comp Lit PhD after undergrad).

time to go OUTDOORS now--try it!

Nichole: this would be a more effective debating point if you were not of necessity indoors while making it.

Llduczo: I was always a big fan of this music/ performance/ graphic arts collective, despite all of the Basque situationist agitprop that went along with the good times. Does anyone know if they put out anything after "Word Verification Gas Chamber"?; 4/8/06, 1:35 PM
X said...: I don't know, going to meetings and throwing a party with other people's money sounds like a pretty good description of what Malcolm Maclaren did with EMI and other record labels during the short life of the Sex Pistols. So while it may or not be DIY, it is arguably very punk rock.

Point taken, at least when it comes to parties with other people's money, but I am willing to bet dollars to old Screeching Weasel vinyl that no toilets got broken in any of Nichole's meetings, and that none of the filth at Slutfest is going to inspire fury in anybody but Sippican Cottage.

Also, I heartily second the idea of some kind of mash-up between Althouse and the Slutfest kids. I wonder how something like Slutfest would compare to those boring old hippy concerts we're always hearing about here!; 4/8/06, 1:51 PM
Palladian said...: It's so cute when they learn to swear too! It makes them seem so grown-up and edgy! I'm so proud... Grandma's little slut!; 4/8/06, 2:11 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Well, we're pretty far into the comments -- who knew this would go on so long? -- but I don't think anyone got upset about the word "Slutfest." People keep dropping by to defend the fest against criticisms that were never made. No one ever said Nicole didn't work hard to get grants or that the kids shouldn't enjoy their music, etc. The original point of the post was mocking the Madisonian diversity cant that Nicole connected to punk culture. I thought that was funny. Sara, and Slutfest just haven't responded to that. Danny agreed with me that it was bullshit. So, whatever. For all the complaining and trying to change the subject, I read a concession: the original mockery was apt.; 4/8/06, 3:34 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "I wonder how something like Slutfest would compare to those boring old hippy concerts we're always hearing about here!"

Have I been writing about hippie concerts? You probably were not reading this blog when I wrote this.; 4/8/06, 3:49 PM
X said...: Sippican-- I think it's hilarious that you seem to need to think that we somehow need to think that you think that this is all terribly shocking. Surely you've got to admit that some faceless person on the net saying he wants to go up to some Nichole and ask when the orchestra starts would bring to mind the image of a shivering old man in an ascot and monocle trying to run some freshman's feet over with his walker?

As for the longevity of this comments section, you've got to remember that most of what punk rock is is vitriolic, potty-mouthed arguments about what punk rock is, and any mention of it is going to inevitably start a shitstorm where people wind up bragging about GG Allin.; 4/8/06, 3:57 PM
Ann Althouse said...: geoduck: "Probably because it's not new(in the last fifteen years) in punk culture, nor it is unique to Madison. Punk rock has been explicitly exploring sexism, homophobia and gender inequity since the late 1980s/ early 1990s."

I realize that, but read the quote again. It's pablum. You're lumping things together that are different. I don't think you've rescued that quote from the original mockery. Cite me some lyrics that sound like that -- bland and bureaucratic. That is grant-writing genuflection, as Danny conceded -- what? -- 50 posts ago.; 4/8/06, 7:52 PM
Ann Althouse said...: And the quote I highlight is still blandly Pc. You can point to other quotes, but so what?; 4/8/06, 8:21 PM
chuck b. said...: Ann said, "I read a concession: the original mockery was apt."

No, it's not--you're wrong. I would rather go to Slutfest than Music Concert.; 4/8/06, 9:11 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Geoduck, I said "I realize that, but read the quote again. It's pablum. You're lumping things together that are different. I don't think you've rescued that quote from the original mockery. Cite me some lyrics that sound like that -- bland and bureaucratic. "

How can the things you quoted possibly be thought to be what I asked for??; 4/9/06, 7:32 AM
Ann Althouse said...: It's like you're specializing in missing the point!; 4/9/06, 7:33 AM
Danny said...: Ann, I think you've gotten the point that SF was nothing more than a chance to have fun. The point you're trying to make is that Nicole's answers in the interview concerning 'punk' reflect on the nature of Madison to make bland what once wasn't. After thinking about it more, I'd take back all I said about 'grants and funding'--I think the actual explanation is a lot less satisfying for those looking to identify Madison's culture climate.

Have you ever been asked a rather inane question by a member of the media and felt the need to provide an answer as opposed to calling them out on their stupidity? So if the quote you selected is bullshit, it's only because it's an answer to a bullshit question directed to a person who simply didn't care. You see the bullshit as being connected to/represenative of Madison's omnipresent PC culture. I'm not Nicole so this isn't an official stance, but the quote you selected is a response forced by the Isthmus's need to give an overarching meaning to Slutfest, an event which is really nothing more than a gathering of bands.

I see a pattern of media outlets sometimes trying too hard to find deeper meaning where there is none (Cheney's shooting for example). I'd say Althouse and the Isthmus are both guilty in this instance.; 4/9/06, 10:07 AM
Palladian said...: Wait, so now you're equating a random event (Cheney's hunting accident) with a planned, premeditated, publicly-funded rock concert? So you're either saying that Slutfest was as unpleasant and unfortunate as taking a face full of bird shot at close range, or you're calling Cheney a slut... I'm very confused.; 4/9/06, 10:15 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Danny: "Ann, I think you've gotten the point that SF was nothing more than a chance to have fun."

I never questioned whether people enjoy their concerts, so don't act as though you've somehow succeeded in revealing that crushingly obvious point that could scarcely have escaped me. I wrote a post about a quote, and I had to repeatedly ask commenters to focus on the quote?

What is this new long post of yours about? Isn't it just you once again admitting that the quote deserved mockery? Or did you need to express regret that you knocked Nicole for saying what she had to say to get funding.

Or do you really mean to say that Slutfest "was nothing more than a chance to have fun"? There are no ideals and culture here, it's just happy fun music for the kids? In which case, why did it get funded?; 4/9/06, 10:56 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Geoduck: You brought up the subject of the uniqueness of Madison. I never said that. PC blandness exists outside of Madison. I never said it didn't. I was expressing dismay at the same old diversity cant. I'd be less dismayed if it were limited to Madison.; 4/9/06, 11:02 AM
somefeller said...: Ann, I'll agree with you that PC cant is boring, as all cant inevitably must be. Hell, the whole PC thing helped made me consider myself to be a libertarian rather than a liberal in the 90s, but that's a story for another time.

That having been said, I don't think the whole anti-sexism, anti-racism, anti-other objectively bad things attitude that the Slutfesters are promoting is a just a pose to please the PC gods and the grant funding community. It looks to me like they've thought through their positions, and consider such issues to be important to them, much like the riot grrls of the 90s did. As such, it seems to me that focusing on the way they've structured their rhetoric, with the implication that all they are doing is reciting shallow cant is deeply unfair to them, and is itself missing the point that they (and their allies, like geoduck2) are trying to make.; 4/9/06, 12:08 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Geoduck: Title Nine in a song. Interesting.

Somefeller: I don't doubt that the organizers of the festival actually oppose racism, sexism, and homophobia. Why would I? Why would you think I would? It's deeply unfair or you to call me deeply unfair. It's also really silly.; 4/9/06, 12:15 PM
Palladian said...: "Positive Force isa collection of diverse individuals. Nonetheless, we are united inopposing racism, sexism, homophobia, militarism, violence, classism,hierarchy, ageism, excessive materialism, economic inequality,censorship and discrimination against disabled people, among otherthings"

Dear God, after that list, I can't begin to imagine what the "other things" are. There are so many contradictory ideas in that statement that the sheer ponderous weight of the whole mass of them together will probably collapse space/time into a black hole.

All this garbage is just a way for the irreligious to be pious and dogmatic.; 4/9/06, 12:24 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Well, if they are against ageism, this comment thread ought to be quite disturbing to them.; 4/9/06, 12:30 PM
somefeller said...: Ann, you said things like:

"I think the question is where are the good values? If we are to think that there are some good values that fall under the label "punk," what are they? And do you have them?"

"That is grant-writing genuflection, as Danny conceded -- what? -- 50 posts ago."

"Am I impressed by people who get grants? I'm impressed by their business acument."

The implication that I drew is that you thought the Slutfesters (now that is a great punk band name waiting to be taken!) were either not seriously thinking through the values that they were reciting or that they were just using their business acumen / reciting some pablum to pick up a few grants. I don't think I was alone in picking up that implication, if I am reading geoduck2's commentary correctly. They, and others, have pretty well shown that their rhetoric, while it might sound a little PC, is in line with what these crazy punk rock kids are all up to these days.

Damn, I'm surprised I've spent so much time discussing this. Nowadays my contact with punk rock is mostly limited to listening to the Fungus on XM every now and then.; 4/9/06, 12:40 PM
SippicanCottage said...: Hello, Muffie? this is Tammy. Let's like, totally end war and injustice and famine, and like bad people who are just so, like totally against everybody and not for anything good and stuff and stand up to, you know, the like, what the cool teacher said, you know -- the blutocrats or something -- that aren't for being against things or anything, and fly in their corporate jets covered in seal pup fur between their landmine factories. They don't eat just cucumber sandwiches, rainwater from terne metal gutters gathered from cathedral rooves in France and pringles like normal people like us do
.
We can so like totally end all this bad stuff if we just get like, my dad to like give us money and go down next to the place that sells the crystals, you know, next to the tarot card reader's and the 7/11 and the feng shui pedicurist and get a bunch of like, totally committed people that aren't skiiing in Vail this week to gather in public and shout DOODIE POOPIE! at everybody that goes by and dress like Morticia Adams on a three day jag.

Totally.; 4/9/06, 1:04 PM
Cousin Don said...: In the words of the Ramones:

I don’t care I don’t care I don’t care about this world
I don’t care about that girl I don’t care
I don’t care I don’t care I don’t care about these words
I don’t care about that girl I don’t care
I don’t care I don’t care I don’t care
I don’t care I don’t care I don’t care
I don’t care I don’t care I don’t care about this world
I don’t care about that girl I don’t care; 4/9/06, 1:06 PM
Ann Althouse said...: The nice thing about that Ramones song is that you can tell he really does love the girl.; 4/9/06, 3:30 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "in those countries the mere fact of women singing in public would be a political act."

The first at all political post I wrote on this blog was on this topic.; 4/9/06, 4:30 PM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/10/06, 8:10 AM
LordSomber said...: Punk wannabes with stunted emotional bandwidth who've dwelled for too long in the all-too-familiar milieu of studied eccentricity have emerged as 'inarticulé rebelles' that are detached from the realities of getting older… and getting a life.
Their shallow fatalism is puzzling, much like how one can both whine and claim to be defiant at the same time.
Shameless piggybacking on vintage subcultures is more than a subtle indicator of a lack of content… especially when you're going on thirty.
The Bottom Line: Cognitive Disengagement and Poor Self-Marketing has resulted in Role Strain.

What 'program' could these Unoriginals possibly get with?; 4/10/06, 9:19 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Well, Nicole has started emailing me, flailing wildly, but she refused permission to reprint the email she sent me, so I've taken down the post I did on the subject. Suffice it to say, she's doing the ultra-punk thing of telling the dean about me. You know, me, who just quoted her, and let a discussion flow in public, where she could fully participate.

It was interesting that she was so thin-skinned about reading her own quote and hearing ordinary people respond to it. She's accepting of all body types, sexualities, genders, and esthetics, but pissed as hell at diverse ideas.

I've never encountered that before.; 4/10/06, 7:24 PM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/10/06, 9:30 PM
T.K. Tortch said...: Coming in very late in the debate, can I just say "Replacements"? Their first four or so albums?

And, echoing others, I never understood how "Punk" transmogrified from -- well, from whatever that anarcho-autodestruct thing it was -- into something that would throw its weight behind the soggy panoply of liberal & leftist causes. I mean, you have to worry about what you say around those folks!! So easy to offend.

And the irony of getting behind a political ethos that, by and large, means more comprehensive government involvement and regulation of public and personal life.

heh.; 4/11/06, 10:01 AM
SippicanCottage said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/11/06, 4:37 PM
sonicfrog said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 4/11/06, 7:47 PM
sonicfrog said...: One generation doesn't get to define all subcultures for the end of time.

This may be true. But the "definition" of a subculture really doesn't start to change until those who helped create it have mostly passed away, and there is no one left to retell what the experience and expression was all about in the first place. I mean, were the "flappers" of the 1920's thinking of themselves in the same way we perceive them today? Worldly, bold, partyers, revelers... Or were they just doing what was theirs to do???

I was a teenager during the Punk Peak (late 80's), so I remember allot of it. I thought it was crap. But then, I lived in a tiny town during that time, with no bowling alley, movie theater, stop light, or Punk scene to speak of (on the back of the "Welcome To ______ sign was the one that said "You Are Now Leaving _______, Please Come Again!"). And I was, and still am, a non-conforming non-conformist. So naturally I never attached myself to any of the passing fads. Wearing different things to hang with this crowd or that never made sense to me. Unlike those who are followers, I never spiked my hair, wore earrings, got the Duran Duran surf cut, smoked cloves, never wore parachute pants, or a pink shirt w/ a yellow sawed off tie (or did I), got a tattoo, etc. etc. I saw all this as fake; it seemed like hiding your true self behind a youth-culture image, obscuring who you really are.

God I was soo bored as a kid. I really missed out on a lot of fun!!!.

What were we talking about again?

PS. Password is "nsaked"; 4/11/06, 7:49 PM
sonicfrog said...: Modern Gay Pride parades are the same as the modern punk movement. They mean well, but they don't, and can't, mean the same thing now as they did then, when being gay meant being a pariah of society, with seemingly little change of being accepted by the whole of society. It was something of a brave soul that participated in those first few events, and I admire them greatly for taking the chances they did. Todays parades seem like little more than an excuse to get drunk and be queenier than usual. Let it all hang out. Which is fine. But still, it's not the same and can never be.; 4/11/06, 8:12 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Transplant: "I see nothing but positivity coming from the event Nicole set up..."

Thanks for your comment, Transplant, but I wish you showed more signs of understanding what we were talking about. "Nothing but positivity" -- that doestn't seem the slightest bit punk. It's fine that people heard some nice music and enjoyed themselves. But this is a discussion of the meaning of a cultural term. It's really a shame that you don't see what's interesting about talking about such things. Some of us think discussions about ideas are as interesting as concerts. That's what we're doing writing here. We don't feel that we're wasting our time anymore than a person going to a concert he likes feels he's wasting his time.; 4/17/06, 6:51 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Transplant: I agree with you that some of the comments here are pretty mean, but the irony is that punk originally was mean and not at all about positivity. It WAS about tearing things down. That's what makes this conversation so interesting and not -- as you tore me down by saying -- a waste of time. Everytime your side came back and asserted that they were nice people with good values, they added fuel to the argument of the other side. It was comical, and one of the good values that your side was sorely lacking was a sense of humor. Being thin-skinned is so not punk -- from an originalist perspective. The irony is quite hilarious. Please try to see it. It will do you good. And you're all about good, right?; 4/18/06, 8:12 AM