Since you opened the door to this line of questioning, Ann, would you please tell us what women really DO want? And I don't mean at Sam's. Has anyone ever figured this out?Today, John Tierney begins his column with the famous question. (TimesSelect link.)
Freud confessed that his "thirty years of research into the feminine soul" left him unable to answer one great question: "What does a woman want?" Modern feminists have been arguing for decades over a variation of it: What should a woman want?What women should want is very different from what we do want, but what we do want is inevitably shaped by what we've come to think we should want, which is affected by what we're hearing we should want. Try disaggregating what you do want from what you think you should want, after first disaggregating what you think you should want from what other people seem to be saying you should want. It's damned hard! And it's not necessarily the way to happiness, but then, if you do manage to do all that, your skills at assessing your own happiness will be quite different from the skills of other people reporting to sociologists about whether they are happy.
Anyway, Tierney's column is really about a sociological study about what makes women happy in a marriage. So we're already dealing with the subset of women who have decided they want to be married, which probably means a greater concentration of individuals who are looking to another person to make them happy. But perhaps not. Do people marry because they want to be happy? There are many other reasons to marry!
[A]n equal division of labor didn't make husbands more affectionate or wives more fulfilled. The wives working outside the home reported less satisfaction with their husbands and their marriages than did the stay-at-home wives. And among those with outside jobs, the happiest wives, regardless of the family's overall income, were the ones whose husbands brought in at least two-thirds of the money.Is it that women enjoy having a mate who outclasses them in earning power? Or is it just that it's better to have more money, and if I'm making X, I'd prefer to add 2X to my total than X? Where's the study of the men? Maybe the men making X also prefer a mate who brings in 2X?
Studies like this always seem hopelessly flawed to me. I never trust assertions married people make about how happy they are. When people are trying to make a marriage work, they try to keep their spirits up and believe in the enterprise. When the marriage is ending, they start realizing that they haven't been happy for a long time.
And then there's the way pundits latch onto these studies and run with them -- usually motivated by their own pre-existing policy preferences.
Of course, I don't have an answer to the question "What do women want?" other than to critique the tendency to ask the question in the first place. Frankly, I find it hard enough to discern what I want.
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Of course, I don't have an answer to the question "What do women want?" other than to critique the tendency to ask the question in the first place. Frankly, I find it hard enough to discern what I want.
That is the crux of the problem. You cannot treat women as some kind of aggregate whole -- unless you're dealing with 100s and 1000s of them. Someone like a sanitary napkin saleman.
My own personal interactions are with individual women, so it's best to treat them an individuals and not pigeonhole them into some "women" box that treats then all the same. They aren't.
If I don't know what an individual wants, is it rude to ask?
I knew a man who spoke of going with his brothers and sisters for a Sunday ride in the country. Amidst the laughter and frolic, the sun broke through the clouds and shone down on the green mountainside. The man's sisters stopped laughing, looked at the sun coming through the clouds, and broke out into quiet tears. The man said he knew at that moment that women were not really understandable to men.
"Studies like this always seem hopelessly flawed to me. I never trust assertions married people make about how happy they are. When people are trying to make a marriage work, they try to keep their spirits up and believe in the enterprise. When the marriage is ending, they start realizing that they haven't been happy for a long time."
I've never heard it said better. These studies show what we want to say about ourselves, or believe about ourselves, not the way we "are" (if there is such a measurable thing)
David - Sex and the City is not the only thing written about hte failure of men and women to communicate in a meaninful way. Even the ancient Greek playwrights were stumped.
Who has ever witnessed the bonding between mother and child when they first look at each other for the first time and not been humbled?
I raise my cynical hand. What treacly pablum you write from behind those rose-colored glasses you must be wearing.
The many women in my neighborhood run the gamut from those who are committed nurturers, who stay home while their husbands work, to those who would wither away if they did that and thrive when they work. Then there are those who are divorced and widowed and have to work to support themselves and their families.
I hope my own kids see this variety and recognize that their world should not be defined solely as some 1950s definition of happiness that david seems to espouse, but rather by what makes their lives most fulfilling, productive, and contented.
I will also note that Traditional Roles are fine until tradition breaks down -- when the man leaves the wife, for example. Then what does the wife who has stayed home do? She has no current marketplace skills and she and her children will face a radical (and likely unwelcome) change in lifestyle.
I haven't a clue as to what my wife sees in me that has kept her hanging in with me all these years, but I'm glad she has. I suspect she is able to simply ignore my obstinance. I would not be let down if it was for my garbage hauling-out ability and a knack for being able to chase mean looking stray dogs out of the yard. Maybe it's the way I dote on the granddaughters. I really don't have a clue.
Ann, you have opened something up here that I think is going to generate a lot of comments. And I think that you hit it pretty good when you talked of disagreggation.
palinurus makes a good point, and, to some extent one made by a guy I work with at the ski area. He pointed out that we (men) are easy to please, and women aren't - I think maybe because often you (women) don't know what you want. He suggested that women are a lot more emotional and a lot more complex.
But what makes most of us men happy I think is to have a happy woman in our lives, taking care of our homes, our kids, and us, and then be left alone to do our thing. We would like it to be simple, as simple as pleasing us. It isn't, as pointed out by palinurus' story.
I think that what a lot of us men would like is an owner's manual for women, or, at least for the woman/women in our lives. Just read it, do what it says, and domestic life will be happy. And, then we can go back to whatever we really want to be doing - watching sports on TV, or, even blogging.
Of course, there is no owner's manual for women. You are all different, and, worse, different one day to the next, or one year to the next. So, the minute we think we have figured out how to get what what we want with you, so we can get back to what we want to do, it changes.
monkeyboy89 suggested that maybe what women want is what they don't have. Maybe some women. But I really think that it is more often that those who seem to want whatever they don't have, have some sort of unmet need that they are trying to have met, and they don't really know what it is. They just know that whatever they have right now isn't it.
Of course, we all do. But, I think, as I said before, that men to some extent are simpler and easier to please.
I have known a number of fairly happy women in my life - starting with my mother. I think my girlfriend too, in her two marriages (before you jump on that - she was widowed in the first one with two infants). I think in both those instances, they had, of course, needs, but stumbled (in my mother's case) or figured out (in the girlfriend's case) what these basic needs were first. And ended up with the guys necessary to meet those needs.
jult52
I agree for the most part, but there are plenty of men who don't get bored with what they have, and plenty of women who figure out what they really do want, or are getting it regardless. And many of them are together.
I will admit that the one who got away in my life was because I was bored. I had her all through college. It was too easy. And I did get bored, and ended up losing her because of that.
I think the studies are also biased in favor of "happiness". "Happiness" is fleeting. Yes I am happy in my marriage (doubt away Ann! :-) ), but yesterday I was pissed off because I was trying to do a techie thing for her and it was digging into some work I needed to do. I was also happy yesterday in my marriage. Big damn deal? More importantly, I am satisfied and I have joy all the time everyday.
What do women want? They want what they want. Don't look at how they respond to surveys -- look at their actions (ditto men). What most people don't want in today's materialist culture is limits placed on them which takes us back to "They want what they want" (men too obviously) consequences be damned (or at least delayed as far off as possible).
I wonder if what we (as men) see as fickle in women is a natural result of women typically picking the men. I have heard many times, and I think it has some truth, that women are the ones who really pick the mate, not the men. We go after a bunch of women, and end up with the one who picks us.
And this is not uncommon with other animals too - where the males strut and parade, etc., trying to make themselves attractive, and the females do the choosing. You see it in a lot of animals. For example, we had turkeys on the road by our house when I was married. And the toms would blow themselves up, their tails would fan out, and they would strut (just like you see all over the place at thanksgiving - but never on your table).
Ann wrote: So we're already dealing with the subset of women who have decided they want to be married, which probably means a greater concentration of individuals who are looking to another person to make them happy. But perhaps not.
I'll submit that "looking to another person to make them happy" is a recipe for disaster.
Ideally, my happiness does not come from someone else, or from being in relationship with someone else. Practically, being in a good relationship contributes to our happiness, and being in a bad relationship contributes to our misery.
But if I depend on someone else for my sense of happiness (or well being) I'm setting myself up for disappointment, which will increase my misery.
Want to know another recipe for disappointment? Assuming that your partner knows (or should know) what you really want, but won't provide it. This is even more pernicious if one partner can't quite articulate what he or she wants, but expects his/her partner to provide it.
Re generalizations, there is nothing wrong with them, as long as no one is applying them as laws. Admittedly, they are stronger if supported by some experience or other data, and, oh, yes, by reason. But if we are to be bound only by what we can prove with hard data, we can close down 99% of the blogs, shut our mouths, and go home to stew in our narrow, finite universes of hard data.
Thanks,
I do give away too much personal information. Fine if it is about me, but often it isn't. My mother is gone, but the girlfriend isn't. I was called on this by my ex, and as a result try to leave anything to do with her and our progeny intentionally quite vague. Mostly, I just bite my tongue there and don't say anything, even if relevant.
Mostly, I think it is just me, and only marginally has to do with the forum. It has been pointed out to me that I do this in real life too.
So, figure I probably should yank that one post above.
Mary,
I missed the one where I took advantage of female dates. In the 40 years since I first dated, I think I may have pushed too hard once or twice, but overall, I think my record better than most guys in this area.
Mary, point taken.
This topic reminds me of a book I once found in my dad's footlocker, "Women, What I Know From 40 Years Experience"
Inside, the book was blank.
Most women want the same thing most men want!
Amen.
A happy home with mutual respect, laughter, tradition, routine, surprises, maybe children, and, God forbid, traditional roles.
Except for the last bit, which will have certain people frothing at the mouth, that's exactly right.
As is the Sex and The City allusion.
I rarely missed an episode in the last season, and all these "girls" did was to talk about men, think about men, and how they would end up with men.
Although at heart women want security from men, yes, they also like to be married so as not to be thought such losers, than no man would have them.
This also goes for women who live with men, without the benefit of marriage.
It's about perception of worth.
Your own, and others about you.
Cheers,
Victoria
"Women, What I Know From 40 Years Experience"
Inside, the book was blank.
*LOL!*
Although this sums up another well-worn chestnut about the male-female relationship:
Men don't understand women.
Women think they understand men.
This has always struck me as possibly true, but still the very worst extreme.
It suggestions:
One leaves frustrated and wanting more samples; the other leaves them bored and wanting her sample to be different.
Sigh.
Cheers,
Victoria
It has been said here before by others, but I don't know that women want different things than men. And I doubt that all women, or all men, want the same things. Life is a process, and few things stay the same. I can only define what I want (and to be honest I haven't found it very difficult to determine). I want to be happy. Sometimes that isn't possible (for example, when grieving) but often, depending on perception - it is. Oh, and at the moment, I want maple candy :-).
Gina
I never trust assertions married people make about how happy they are.
Do you ou always trust the assertions of single people how about happy they are?
I have always thought how "Sex and the City" ends is funny. Here are these women who are sexually promiscuous and experimental (to varying degrees), liberated and fiercely independent.
In the series finale, they ALL end up in very serious, committed relationships (even Samantha!) complete with a Disney-worthy fairytale that ends with a prince charming coming to Sarah Jessica Parker's rescue (in Paris, no less).
It was the kind of ending I felt like the characters could have easily sneered at over lunch in previous episodes... and it says something about what's "supposed" to make women happy...
Critical Observer: But Tierney is saying women like the traditional role, while I'm saying maybe they just like having more money. If men like the extra money too, that undercuts his traditionalism theory.
Reader Iam: I don't trust anyone's assertions about how happy they are, but I think single people tend to complain about their situation and think if they had a good relationship they'd be happier. Married people are supposed to think they've reached the goal, so it is much harder for them to admit it's not good. And acting like it is good is part of what you need to do to make it work. When you're single, you don't have to try to hold anything together. You tend to be working toward getting somewhere else, not preserving the status quo. For these reasons, I think married people are more likely to misjudge their own happiness.
David said...
Most women want the same thing most men want!
That is the most absurd statement I have ever heard (this week), and one of those nice banalities that people toss out in an "up with people", equality of the sexes kind of way.
If that were actually true, the dollars spent on say, phone sex, would be equal between the sexes. Or, divorce rates would be lower (as their would be fewer disagreements over money). Or Nascar would not have 49 men and a woman in any given race.
A host of statistics show that men and women spend their time and money differently, and how you spend your time and money is the clearest indication of what you might actually want, actions speaking louder than statements of intent.
Troy said it a little better:
What do women want? They want what they want.
And to know what they WANT, look at what they do:
Most women know what Sephora is. The average woman must like makeup more than the average man. Hmmmm.
Women tend to marry up, despite copious opportunities to marry down. Hmmmm.
And so on. It matters little what women say they want because 1)half the time they lie to you (for appearances sake, like not telling their ages)and 2) the other half the time they are (knowingly)lying to themselves. Again, actions (for men and women) speak louder than declarations of preference.
It's like all the women I know (and am infatuated with) who tell me reassuring things like, "Don't lose weight or change yourself for a woman; the woman you like will like you for you, and for your great personality. Just be you). And I just stare at them wide eyed, while they go on to confide in me about their badboy boyfriends, illicite relationships with married guys, and various other "soulmates." Obviously the advice they give does not apply to themselves (or, I am hideous and my personality is foul and the "being me" is really not the best option).
I believe my own thought, and believe that what is generally true of all women, will be true in the heart of any one woman, statistically speaking.
I think that it is almost hard wired that women want to marry up, and not down, and, thus, that suggestion that women look to marry the guy making more than they do, but the guy doesn't care as much. This, I suspect, is a result of a drive to get the best genetics possible for their offspring.
But, as has been noted before in this forum, this is going to have to change. With somewhere around half the lawyers and doctors graduating being women, it is inevitable that there are going to be more and more high earning women, compared to men, and they all can't marry up. The numbers just won't allow it.
Finn Kristiansen
To some extent, I would suggest that the reason that some married women screw around on their husbands is that in monogomous species, as ours is somewhat, there is always a dynamic for the females between getting the best genes for their offspring and finding the best mate they can. This dynamic is esp. interesting when it comes to humans, given the esp. long time and substantial resources that it takes to raise kids. Women need to convince their mate that the kids they are having are theirs, so that the men will contribute the necessary time and resources to raise the kids.
Thus, to some extent, a drive by some women to cheat on their husbands. Now days, presumably, much of the extramaritial sex is protected, but when we were evolving, it wasn't. But, then also, the men available were usually close enough genetically that the women could often get away with having one man raise another man's children.
Lest you think that I am suggesting that women are the only, or even, primary, ones who cheat, I am not. Men have similar, but opposite built in drives for procreation. The kids of their own that they raise with their mate have a better chance at survival, and thus, an incentive to marry. But all the rest of the kids they can father are bonuses, as far as spreading their genes is conderned. And, since the cost here is lower for cheating, men are probably more likely to cheat on their wives, than visa versa.
"Studies like this always seem hopelessly flawed to me."
That comment is careless. I doubt you have given the studies more than a glance. Or have you examined any of them at all?
geoduck2:
I said "statistically speaking" the aggragate of what all women want will generally apply to any specific woman. I am sure there are slight deviations.
In the case of you and your sister, you both wanted relationships with nice guys who are employed! That one is in computers and the other electronics hardly matters. I take from this that women want relationships (among many other things).
(I like your husband's book choice that he used to seduce you).
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