And I hadn't listened to any episode in months. I'd stopped even looking at the episode titles, which is something I was doing even after I'd stopped listening. I was looking at episode titles and rejecting them unheard. Something about the Trump Era made me resistant to what they were putting out. But I happened to listen this morning.
The episode is: "The Field: Iowa’s Electability Complex/As Iowans prepare to cast the first votes of the 2020 Democratic nomination process, they’re asking one question: Who can win?" ("Traveling around the state, we found anxious Iowans asking one question over and over: Who can beat President Trump?")
This was worth listening to, and, for me, it's worth blogging about because it made me think of what was missing. You have all these people in Iowa putting tremendous effort into picking one of the Democratic Party candidates, and the number one thing they're wracking their brains about is how other people will think. They're imagining the interior life of people who are inclined to or capable of voting for Trump.
But here's what's missing: Their imagination is pathetic and — though they all seem like such nice people — morally deficient. No one speaking in that podcast had any real feeling for Trump supporters as fully dimensional human beings. Trump supporters are ciphers who might as well be piled up in a basket labeled "deplorables."
Now, the podcast nudges us to think that it would be best for the people of Iowa to pull back from wondering what other people want and just ask themselves what do I want. That is, forget about electability. That's the too-hard-to-answer question of what everyone else wants. If each individual goes for what he or she wants, then there's a chance of aggregating that into a sensible picture of what people in general want.
That may be a good idea, especially if the alternative is to rely on inept thinking about what other people want. To me, what was missing from the podcast was a recognition of the poverty of the Iowa Democrats' thoughts about how voters in the middle might feel about various Democratic Party candidates. If there is any substance at all, it seems to be that some of the Democrats are actively offensive, others are sort of innocuous, and if they serve up one of the innocuous candidates, maybe enough of those voters in the middle will go along with it.
But there is another option for these Iowa caucus-goers (and others engaged in the Democratic Party nomination process): Accord full humanity to the Americans who are capable of accepting Trump and try to understand them as real people whose thoughts and feelings matter. This would be an arduous path, and it's almost surely too late to start. I don't think the Democrats involved in the nominating process even know how to find their way to the beginning of that path.
ADDED: They can't find their way to the beginning of that path because they are so deeply invested in demonizing the other side. They want voters in the middle to go with the Democrats because the GOP side is demonic. To demonize is to disbelieve in the possibility of connection with the real humanity of the people you want to convince. There's only a hope that some of the demons are getting tired of being demons.
Yet this demonizing is itself tiresome. And I say that as someone in the middle, someone who could go either way and 2020 and who voted against Donald Trump twice in 2016 (in the Wisconsin primary and in the general election).
February 3, 2020
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asking one question over and over: Who can beat President Trump?"
Oh oh I know I know
The answer is.... NOBODY
Your last paragraph says it all, Professor.
Their imagination is pathetic and — though they all seem like such nice people — morally deficient. No one speaking in that podcast had any real feeling for Trump supporters are fully dimensional human beings. They're ciphers. They might as well be piled up in a basket labeled "deplorables."
At first, I thought you made a mistake in using the word imagination, but now I think it is quite apt. They cannot imagine that Trump supporters are rational, intelligent, well informed human beings. In some cases, we hold fairly liberal opinions.
That is likely the case because if Trump supporters were anything other than ignorant deplorable, they (the leftists) might be challenged to defend their opinions. That cannot happen.
Be open and accepting of differences? But they are not of the body! Hail Landrew!
Tulsi has tried, and look how they have treated her for it. They are calling her a stooge of Putin, even Bernie who honeymooned in the Soviet Union.
Accord full humanity to the Americans who are capable of accepting Trump and try to understand them as real people whose thoughts and feelings matter.
I have largely stopped making political posts on Facebook, because I have friends and family members who are utterly convinced that anyone who in any way supports Trump is a crypto-racist with Nazi tendencies. The utter illogical of their feelings (I can't even justify calling them 'arguments') is no hindrance; they seem to argue from sheer emotion, not history, not logic, not philosophy.
I think they're in for a bitter harvest this fall.
"That is likely the case because if Trump supporters were anything other than ignorant deplorable, they (the leftists) might be challenged to defend their opinions”
Same reason that Trump can’t actually be a billionaire.
Pffft! The rats were dancing with the commies in the 80s. That ideology is evil. It just took this long to leech out.
BTW, via Zero Hedge:
Senate Republicans are gearing up for a three-pronged investigation into the origins of Congressional Democrats' impeachment of President Trump, according to the Washington Examiner.
Are the Rat candidates showing any leadership on the Coronavirus at all?
Look at Trump and his supporters as anything other than ignorant, racist, bigots?
The cognitive dissonance would be too great.
Everything they have been telling themselves for the last 4 years would be wrong.
Yeah, the dems are out of touch but they feel so good about themselves. Being a democrat means never having to be self aware.
Iowa went for Trump last election and no longer seems solidly blue, it's not like there aren't enough Trump supporters to come in contact with and understand why. I am pretty sure the Iowa democrats understand full well what Uncle Bob thinks or why their Mom adores President Trump. If there are democrats groping for an explanation they must live in a vacuum sealed bubble.
I think AA forgets some may stay home in November like I am planning if the nominee is Sanders, Biden, or Bloomberg. Many believe crucial numbers stayed home in 2016. So I hope folks hesitate before voting in Iowa for Joe or Bernie.
They're imagining the interior life of people who are inclined to or capable of voting for Trump.
Mind reading is a tricky and dangerous business. I'm constantly trying to imagine what a typical liberal voter must be thinking these days. I just know that from the outside, the Democrats seem very much like a house divided, the old guard versus the Young Turks. I guess we're set to find out if that perception is wrong. Maybe everyone will dutifully line up behind Biden? In the past, the Democrats seem to have shown a great deal of comformity once the rubber hits the road.
But then again, if you know you're most likely gonna lose anyway, why not throw that hail mary and go for Sanders (assuming you actually believe all his fantasies that is)?
Here's where I come to see Trump voters thinking seriously about Democrats.
readering said...
I think AA forgets some may stay home in November like I am planning if the nominee is Sanders, Biden, or Bloomberg.
Why don't you show those three hosers something, and vote for Trump?
Solid post.
People who try to understand other people aren’t very political.
People who caucus in Iowa in February every year tend to be political.
But here's what's missing: Their imagination is pathetic and — though they all seem like such nice people — morally deficient.
That's exactly right. For all their wonderings of who can beat Trump, it never once crosses their mind to wonder who SHOULD beat Trump. They spend roughly zero minutes and zero seconds wondering if all those millions who are voting for Trump may actually have a legitimate reasons for doing so.
You see it played out here in your comment threads, with Inga, ARM, Cook, etc., reduced to lying and selectively ignoring arguments, playing games and attacking others here while seemingly never once engaging in any way with the possibility that they may be wrong. That someone who feels differently from them might be right.
AllenS,
Because those "Don't blame me" and "Hands clean!" bumper stickers allow such smug satisfaction.
Bernie Sanders ardent supporters aren’t Democrats.
That’s why he’s doing well and did well in 2016.
Try and understand his ardent supporters.
I was driving a lot last week, and so listening to a lot of impeachment coverage on NPR. And I noticed (again, as if anew) that even the NPR political commentators trying to be fair seem to take the Democrats' position as the neutral position, and Republicans would have a different position *only* for political, strategic reasons.
I see that a lot, and it reads as if Althouse does, too. People who support Trump are only doing it out of some extreme desire to not be rational and kind, as the Democrats are.
I feel this way about Social Justice too.
If I'm doing well, and everyone I know is doing well, or the ones that aren't made stupid choices or buried their head in the sand or whatever denial/escape strategy they used...why should I nonetheless base my vote on supposedly poor oppressed victims elsewhere I don't know anything about?
Diagram that!
It would also vitiate the entire point of Trump hating, which is sneering at Trump voters.
I see that a lot, and it reads as if Althouse does, too. People who support Trump are only doing it out of some extreme desire to not be rational and kind, as the Democrats are.
Rats won for decades on “being kind.”
Before one can say "I will vote for X" one must be able to say "I"
along the lines of
Ayn Rand > Quotes > Quotable Quote
Ayn Rand
“To say ‘I love you’ one must first know how to say the ‘I.’ The meaning of the ‘I’ is an independent, self-sufficient entity that does not exist for the sake of any other person.
"To me, what was missing from the podcast was a recognition of the poverty of the Iowa Democrats' thoughts about how voters in the middle might feel about various Democratic Party candidates."
The headline writers at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel were thinking along these lines. They took an AP story, which had a funny typo calling a candidate "rally" a "really", and sub-headlined it (going by memory) "Strong Field and New Caucus Rules Add To Excitement". The "strong field and "excitement" were the things that caught my attention.
I read the whole thing, waiting for the part that established a strong field as a fact. There was nothing in the story that indicated the field was strong at all. But for voters in the middle who only scan the headline and sub-head, MSJ wants them to think it's a strong field that has created excitement. I would have dropped the "strong" and changed the wording to "Democratic Field and New Caucus Rules Causes Anxiety."
If your typical Dem voter doesn't believe that any of the current crop has a chance in hell of actually beating Trump, perhaps the most likely possibility is that most of them will just vote for who they really want, because why not? In the last presidential election, during the primaries I really feel that there were a lot of Dems who held their nose and voted for Hillary despite not actually liking her at all. They just chose her because they were assured she could win easily. But maybe this time 'round more voters will feel like they should just vote for who they want for once.
Speaking of imagination... AA says she could go either way in 2020!
"Electability" is the mainstream Dem's dog whistle for the voters to reject Bernie.
It's a bid to save the party, not to defeat Trump.
Unfortunately their plan didn't take into account the rest of the field.
The rest of their candidates are so untrustworthy, corrupt, or inexperienced they've made Bernie into the safe choice.
The only thing that matters to most Democrats is to beat Trump, and they'll support anyone they think can do it. They really don't care about the issues. If they did, they'd vote for peace and posterity, and that would be a vote for Trump. So the only question that makes sense to them is who will other people vote for who isn't Trump? Which seems to be the only question they are asking. Makes perfect sense.
I used to think the left might wake up if Trump were re-elected in a landslide.
But they'll just say he won't be running in 2024 and their tired, old schtick will overcome whoever replaces him.
It's much easier to say, "wait until next time" than do the hard introspection necessary for change.
And you don't have to admit you were the deplorable ones all along.
So, in Wisconsin, you can cross over in the primaries? Here in AZ you can only vote for one party. So did you not vote for a Democrat candidate in 2016?
And I say that as someone in the middle, someone who could go either way and 2020 and who voted against Donald Trump twice in 2016
Self delusion is the worst form of delusion.
Tim maguire said...
reduced to lying
This line of argument, that if someone has a different opinion than you then they must be lying, is the most puerile line of argument I routinely encounter here. If you disagree with someone's argument or position, present some facts or logic to refute that argument. If you can't then maybe you are the one who should reconsider what you are saying.
They can't find their way to the beginning of that path because they are so deeply invested in demonizing the other side.
Yes, demonizing, to some extent, but also ignoring the other side.
It's hard to demonize your aunt, or uncle, or neighbor, if you have to do it face to face.
ExampleL Growing up in the SF Bay Area, I did not meet a Republican until I was 17. Yes, it was that one-sided even 35 years ago.
Today, it's about the same. But, at least the internet provides the free exchange of ideas, so if you want to secretly and gingerly learn what a conservative is thinking you can check out, say, Paul Ryan on twitter (yuck).
The Left doesn't engage in ideas any more. They don't listen to opposing points of view. They are monolithically attached to abortion on demand, gay marriage and bigger government.
So, they focus on "Orange Man Bad" and we end up with bogus Mueller investigations and bogus impeachment schemes.
"That's the too-hard-to-answer question of what everyone else wants."
I know what boys like
I know what guys want
I know what boys like
Boys like, boys like me
Anything you want
You can trust me
I really want to
You can trust me
How would you like it
You can trust me
Sucker
Hmmmm
Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Nyah
Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Nyah
The Democrat party tent gets smaller every day.
The Trump basket of deplorables seems to be growing.
There are Democrats who can beat Trump, but they either didn't get traction in the primaries, or they didn't even bother running. When I look at the present field, they are all trying so hard to get the left of each other except for Biden, who is just senile.
She would have been laughed at by the right as being too inexperienced for the job, but Sinema would have run rings around this group of candidates. If she had tossed her hat into the ring last Summer, she would be running away with this nomination.
Although I've unfollowed just about everyone who posts political stuff on FB, a Mark Twain quote, posted in the context referring to Trump supporters did manage to sneak in shortly after the Impeachment collapse. It said "No amount of evidence will persuade an idiot." I thought to myself that the person who posted had just demonstrated her lack of self-awareness. For one thing, you don't persuade people by calling them idiots. For another thing, where was the evidence against Trump? How can you ignore the evidence against Hillary and Biden? I didn't vote for Trump because I ignored his faults etc. I voted for him because I though he was the lesser of two evils. I'm pleasantly surprised that he's turned out to be such a good president - but I voted for him because, based on the evidence, I thought he wouldn't be as bad as Hillary.
Here's where I come to see Trump voters thinking seriously about Democrats.
The truly sad thing is that we are thinking more seriously about them than the MSM and Democratic voters are.
"If you disagree with someone's argument or position, present some facts or logic to refute that argument."
The most unintentionally funny thing I have read this year.
QuickStats > U.S. Surveys > Religious Beliefs > Beliefs about Evil > Belief in demons
In one group, 77% 'absolutely' believe in demons.
Even 31% of 'Postgraduate work/degree's 'absolutely' believe in demons.
(thearda.com?)
Accord full humanity to the Americans who are capable of accepting Trump and try to understand them as real people whose thoughts and feelings matter.
Hence the constant dehumanization of those Americans by the media, and then in the next moment, they decry Trump's divisiveness. Democrats don't want to understand differing opinions nor treat those with them as human.
There's only a hope that some of the demons are getting tired of being demons.
They used impeachment as a test case.
Only to find out they were wrong.
Readering said, "Here's where I come to see Trump voters thinking seriously about Democrats."
Interesting comment. Probably more ironic than serious, but it's interesting either way.
So, here's my thought about Democrats: How do (all too many) Democrats manage all the cognitive dissonance in their brains?
ARM, I might be shamed by your response to my comment if I hadn't been reading your crap for the past couple years. But I have, and I have tried to engage you honestly many times, only to have you cherry pick, selectively edit, and outright misrepresent the arguments being put before you.
So all I can do is laugh at your continued dishonesty about your own behavior here.
Once demonizing starts it's hard to stop. Witness Trump's birtherism. But I don't see many of the Democratic candidates demonizing Trump's supporters, just him and his coterie.
And I say that as someone in the middle, someone who could go either way and 2020 and who voted against Donald Trump twice in 2016 (in the Wisconsin primary and in the general election).
But what we never hear is whether you were happy with your choice in the 2016 General Election, or are you merely an elitist who cares not one bit about the fate of workers in much less comfortable circumstances than your own?
MayBee said...even the NPR political commentators trying to be fair seem to take the Democrats' position as the neutral position, and Republicans would have a different position *only* for political, strategic reasons.
Yep. Liberals are passionate, conservatives are angry. When Democrats hang together, they are standing strong on principle, when Republicans hang together, they are kept in line.
Editorializing creeps into every "straight" news story, always from the same side, and never admitted to by the people responsible.
Whenever you view yourself as morally superior to another person or group you are on a slippery slope. In this context that is where most Dems stand at the moment when it comes to Trump supporters. But I also see this with those self righteous people focusing on the "right to life" issue. Jesus of Nazareth encapsulated it well when he said in Matt 7
“1. Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4. How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
“Their imagination is pathetic and — though they all seem like such nice people — morally deficient. No one speaking in that podcast had any real feeling for Trump supporters are fully dimensional human beings. They're ciphers. They might as well be piled up in a basket labeled "deplorables."”
I’ve so often felt that this is the way commenters here thought about liberals and a Democrats. The lack of imagination toward liberals is astounding at times. The commenters here seem to be unwilling or unable to see liberals as people who hold some of the major values that they do. Not long ago I spoke about my son’s death in April and I was so appreciative of all the sincere condolences and empathy. I didn’t expect that and I was blown away by the decency and humanity. So I’m guilty of lack of imagination toward Trump supporters. Most here were very kind, but there were a few who said I had made it up. Make up my own son’s death? That blew me away too.
There are commenters here who are not only of similar mind to the Iowa caucus goers, but go beyond it. I’ve gone out of my way to push back on that notion by revealing personal aspects of my own life and the lives of the many liberals I know personally. Yet whenever I attempt to humanize liberals and Democrats it’s met with some of the nastiest commentary I’ve ever heard. The terms Stalinists, Communists and more is heard daily here. There are two regular commenters here that have described liberals as very bad people, as less than human, as people who couldn’t possibly have families, lives worth living, respectable jobs, etc etc etc.
Liberals have been told that they are thugs, supportive of violence, baby killers. When a liberal commenting here speaks about their own family or children it’s met with disbelief, as IF they are making it up. So I guess what I’m trying to say that what you see in these Democrat caucus goers in Iowa when it comes to how they see Trump supporters, is pretty much the way commenters here see liberals, unimaginative. They cannot fathom or refuse to believe that liberals are also fully dimensional human beings. That sort out of unrealistic, unimaginative mindset goes both ways and it would be refreshing to hear that same sort of scolding be directed at the Trump supporting commenters here.
It can’t possibly be so hard to see that this lack of imagination toward liberals as fellow humans is also a real phenomenon.
Professional lady said: "I didn't vote for Trump because I ignored his faults. I voted for him because I thought he was the lesser of two evils."
And there you have it. In every Presidential election the voters are presented with a binary choice. [Yes there are fringe or even strong third party candidates--but the realistic choice is Republican or Democrat.] And there have been elections in my lifetime {McGovern vs. Nixon) where I had to really wrestle with the choice.
I'm a lifelong registered Democrat--but here in California I mostly split the ticket when voting for the six statewide offices in each election. Too many of my liberal friends didn't see the possibility of Trump winning in 2016. They had a hard time "grokking" the idea that anyone could or would vote for him.
You will be blindsided almost every time when you can't accept the idea that real people might have real opinions which are different than yours. We are all going to heck in a handbasket at the end of our life, and there are lots of different ways to get there. Failure to recognize that someone else might choose a different way leads to---failure.
... but also ignoring the other side.
I think some of the derangement and anger is due to this. They expected to be able to ignore anyone who disagreed with them- they had a plan to bypass the electorate and legislate from the courts with SCOTUS as the backstop. Trump screwed that up. They're plans are clinging to life but time is running out and you can hear the urgency in their voices and see it in their actions.
I can remember as little as 15 years ago you would have a few media creatures like Jeff Greenfield that could lay out some hard truths to liberal democrats and not have them freak out and ask for his head. There were very few media outlets telling democrats what a bad idea a partisan impeachment show was and why people effectively tuned out. They were just as stunned as their democratic allies on the hill on what a flop it turned out to be with the american public.
No longer having some objective media feedback has handicapped the democrats. The media no longer pretends to be neutral and is just a functioning arm of the DNC. After 4 years of "Trump surprises" wouldn't you want to retrace your steps and figure out why that keeps happening?
tim maguire said...
So all I can do is laugh at your continued dishonesty about your own behavior here.
A complete failure to engage, followed by puerile name calling. Present an example, dissect it for the readers, show how someone could not possibly in good faith believe the counter argument. Since the vast majority of my beliefs are majority beliefs you are necessarily going to have a difficult time with this, but knock yourself out.
What do the people want? They want to be unmolested by Government.
isn't it dishonest to talk about "voting" in Iowa? it is a caucaus. They try to reach consensus and if no one caucuses with you for your candidate you are odd man out.
Also, the weather, enthusiasm gap, jobs, babysitting, etc all get in the way of attending the caucas. so it is a subset of voters -- not even representative of the populace or electorate. It is a farce. Iowans should change it.
Yancey Ward said, "She would have been laughed at by the right as being too inexperienced for the job..."
Like Barack Obama, Kyrsten Sinema has a wonderfully euphonic name. "Sinema" even reminds one of "the Cinema", of movies and glamour and entertainment. And even if she doesn't quite have "cinematic" looks, she is quite intriguing to look at.
I watched some of the debate footage versus McSally. Sinema knows how to leave her opponent enough rope with which to hang herself. She seems inauthentic to me but poised enough to look good against an overly "earnest" foe. Gabbard has this talent as well.
Not sure if she would be "running away with the nomination", but she certainly would garner(tm) attention.
The overabundant field of Democratic presidential candidates are frightening, first because of the extremists running and second because Democrats cannot see through the Trump-like dummies and fakers in the bunch. The dummies start with the big spenders, Steyer and Bloomberg who can't win on personality or non-existent programs (money can't buy me love) and then come the really big program ultra-liberals (Bern & Liz) who cannot win because they need NeverTrumper and Independent support which will not happen in the November election. As for Slow Joe - he really is batting ninth and asleep half-of-the-time.
That leaves us with with only two viable candidates, Pete and Amy ,who happen to be smart enough to know that they need the middle rail to make the subway train go. At the convention, Dems should draft one for 1st chair and give the loser 2nd chair.
Inga said, "I’ve so often felt that this is the way commenters here thought about liberals and a Democrats. The lack of imagination toward liberals is astounding at times. "
Inga, if there were an "Althouse Commentariat Party" arranged, I think we would find that most participants here are very nice people. Most of the derision and ill-feeling that spikes here sometimes would be, thankfully, missing.
When Megan McArdle had her Bloomberg blog, there was plenty of back and forth and animosity and name-calling in the comments. But, when she did a "Friday food post", it's amazing how warm and friendly everyone became, even among folks who seemed to hate each other.
It's just the nature of internet anonymity and political passion. Too easy to take this stuff too personally.
How very shallow it is to consider only, or predominantly, which candidate is best able to defeat Trump.
This is easy. I want the Democrats to nominate a candidate that believes in a thriving economy, a strong national defence, property rights, and personal freedom. (This formula was first set forth by another commenter here. I’d give full credit if I could remember who it was.) then we could have a productive election process with America being the winner.
Bloomberg flunks because he doesn’t support personal freedom or property rights. I don’t know his position on national defence. He would attempt to support a thriving economy because he is fundamentally a capitalist, although an imperfect one.
They were just as stunned as their democratic allies on the hill on what a flop it turned out to be with the american public.
Their deities are Woodward and Bernstein. They told the media Watergate was a verb, and it was an easy verb. The media still believes.
Yes, that's just not possible, Bloomberg doesn't see anything wrong with the Chinese pla system, even with exhibit being the handling of the coronavirus, he's talking about unicorns,
re climate change, and pretending Obamacare works,
I would ask Inga, are you satisfied with how governor evers has handled himself, what confidence did letting the Democrats have the House give you?
I also turn to the Daily podcast far less than I used to. I happened to give the January 31, 2020 podcast a go today. It's a Barbaro interview with Dean Baquet, Executive Editor of the NYT. I highly recommend it. It is a thoughtful exploration of the NYT coverage of 2016. I have a very low tolerance these days for anyone seriously afflicted with TDS. This podcast did not once trigger my TDS gag impulse.
Inga said "Liberals have been told that they are thugs, supportive of violence, baby killers."
Point me to what is wrong with that?? Antifa are thugs, the media and the lefty Politicians praise them....and they support baby killing which itself is a VERY violent death!!!
I want the Democrats to nominate a candidate that believes in a thriving economy
You can't have that.
A thriving economy means people being less dependent upon the government, and gov't social workers.
That means:
1: Less personal power for those social workers (you can only make people beg and grovel when they don't have options)
2: Fewer voters voting for the Democrats just to keep their welfare coming
3: The biggest horror of horrors for the Democrats: possibly fewer social workers paying dues to a union that pays the Democrats
If you want a thriving economy that raises up ordinary Americans, you want a Republican in charge
Ok, I'm gagging a little in the last 10 minutes, but not in the first 45 minutes.
Question: how often has the Iowa caucus of either party picked the eventual winner of the presidency? How often has someone who didn’t win the caucus ended up winning?
Carter and Obama, right off the back, in recent memory, Clinton didn't win iowa the first time, Hillary won it, and still lost.
“Inga said "Liberals have been told that they are thugs, supportive of violence, baby killers."
Point me to what is wrong with that?? Antifa are thugs, the media and the lefty Politicians praise them....and they support baby killing which itself is a VERY violent death!!!”
So here is a prime example of lack of imagination. Do you imagine that all liberals condone the activities of Antifa? I don’t imagine that all Conservatives or Trump supporters condone the activities of neo Nazi/white supremacists.
As far as abortion goes, there are many liberals who would never have an abortion themselves, who believe that life inside the mother is a human life, yet would not go so far as to condone outlawing of abortion, as then we take always the freedom of a woman over their own bodily autonomy. Althouse herself doesn’t not condone outlawing abortion. So it that respect she and I are not dissimilar.
Blogger Gk1 said...
Iowa went for Trump last election and no longer seems solidly blue, it's not like there aren't enough Trump supporters to come in contact with and understand why. I am pretty sure the Iowa democrats understand full well what Uncle Bob thinks or why their Mom adores President Trump. If there are democrats groping for an explanation they must live in a vacuum sealed bubble.
Bingo. These people are an increasingly beleaguered minority that lives in such a tight bubble it essentially makes them stupid. They rant and rave about idiot Republicans, then never even stop to wonder why none of their family members talk politics with them any more. There are people all around them whoa re going to vote for Trump in 2020, yet to them those people are such an "other", they have no idea how they think.
And can't risk having an idea. because "understanding the evil" gets you kicked out of the club
It's why "I can't understand how anyone could ..." is one of their favorite things to say
This reasonable-sounding part from Althouse is actually wrong:
...No one speaking in that podcast had any real feeling for Trump supporters as fully dimensional human beings. Trump supporters are ciphers who might as well be piled up in a basket labeled "deplorables.”
Trump supporters — fans of Trump — aren’t worth the effort. There’s no other candidate for the residents of TrumpWorld. They are not susceptible in the least to any “policy” arguments. The good policies are Trump’s. The bad policies are anybody else’s. All Dems are bad. The GOP establishment is bad. The media is bad. Most of the government is incompetent or “deep state.” It is a personality cult, Althouse, and I find it hard to understand that you would not accept that.
No, Althouse; you do not address yourself to that demographic. They are not worth it. They are deplorable.
All this is NOT to suggest that Trump opposition has no options. There are fascinating options. There are Republicans who hate Trump, and Libertarians who hate Trump and Democrats who hate Trump and Independents who hate Trump. There are Greens who hate Trump!
And real, true Trump fans are a minority.
So the interesting thing is to try to unify all of the Trump haters around that hatred. Not to try to minimize the hatred. And how do we get together Elizabeth Warren’s supporters and Biden supporters and Bloomberg supporters and BookerHarrisCastro supporters and Bulwark readers and former Bush Administration staffers and Kasich fans and Clinton fans and Amash fans, who agree on just about nothing apart from their shared hatred of Trump.
I think that about the only thing that Elizabeth Warren, Justin Amash, Bill Kristol and Hillary Clinton would EVER agree on is the answer to this question; if you must choose between “Democratic” candidate Michael Bloomberg and “Republican” candidate Donald Trump, will you choose Bloomberg? I think they will all answer yes.
90% of political affiliation is tribal consciousness.
That is, the not too rational matter of feeling part of a whole, opposed collectively to some other whole. It really is very close to sports fannishness, to the extent that the whole matter of political "issues", or what appear to be prudential considerations, become fictionalized mcguffins, rationalizations for a plot that is actually driven by irrational feelings, or anxiety about others irrational feelings, usually others of ones own tribe.
This applies to all sides of any political dispute anywhere. It is most intense and dangerous of course when the tribes involved are actual ethnic tribes, Tutsi and Hutu or Sinhalese and Tamil. But the US is rapidly getting to that point.
Its the niners vs chiefs, for the most part, which is why symbolism is so important.
Blogger Inga said...
So here is a prime example of lack of imagination. Do you imagine that all liberals condone the activities of Antifa?
Yes, by definition every single Democrat who isn't speaking out against antifa, cancel culture, and against those who use their power to shut out conservative voices (see: your typical university administrator) is condoning their violence, their assault on freedom of speech. So, Inga, what to direct us to where you routinely condemn Antifa?
I don’t imagine that all Conservatives or Trump supporters condone the activities of neo Nazi/white supremacists.
Yes, you do. Otherwise you wouldn't have even brought it up.
How many left wing political meetings / events have been shut down by "neo Nazi/white supremacists" in the US in the last year? Name the events, with links.
0?
Ranting about "neo Nazi/white supremacists" is what left wing Antifa excusers / delusional nut do. Because, otherwise they'd have to admit that political violence in the US is pretty much the property of the Left
This is a little tangential to the post, but we do seem to get caught up in labels rather than discussing specific values and policies. Democrat or Republican, conservative and Liberal are merely stand-ins for the real issues.
At any time you could have a democrat who is pro-business and a Republican who is very statist. Both sides have a platform that is both pro-liberty and anti-liberty based n specific issues. But denouncing everyone who identifies with one party or ideology vs the other you are making it hard to defend your position. You can easily be dismissed by the other side because in their eyes you are entirely incorrect about their beliefs. And so we go round and round in comment sections name calling and painting with broad brushes, demonizing the evil "others".
The truth is, we all make compromises to support our side because we value some issues more highly over others while other people might value different issues more highly than yours. I am not saying there are not rights and wrongs, but we place different emphases on things and so cannot come to an agreement. Abortion is a stark example of this. On one side you have people who truly believe that the unborn are people and deserve full rights as humans. They are demonized as sexists who just want to control women and don't actually care about the unborn at all. On the other side you have people who don't think the unborn are people yet and that liberty is preserved by allowing the woman full autonomy in this area. Of course they are demonized as baby-killers. The problem we have here is a fundamental difference in definitions. Both sides think they are the party of freedom and liberty and value of human beings and the other side is evil.
Do not argue the abortion case. You would be a fool to open that up on this thread as it is not the point. The point is that we can easily assign to our sides the values that the other side assigns themselves. And because we weigh certain things higher than others and other people do it differently we come to different conclusions.
But as is said, most likely everyone of us is a nice compassionate loving person who would never dream of causing harm or distress to another person and might even risk our own well being to help another person that we might have castigated on line just 10 minutes earlier.
I'd say more but now I gotta run.
Don't talk about abortion!
Perhaps collectivists tend to underweight their own preferences when pursuing an avowed objective of the collective, while free-marketers tend more to act on their own preferences and trust in the invisible hand?
Wisconsin has an open primary system, so on April 7 I'll probably give Bernie my vote because I want him to be the Democratic nominee because I want The Trump to be reelected. I admit it will give me pleasure to watch Never Trumpers melt into a puddle when faced with the binary choice between a patriotic Civic Nationalist (Trump) and an anti-American Covert Communist (Sanders).
So, Go Bernie, GO!
AA, I think your entire premise on voters, while commendable, is an exercise which appears to be one of academic polemics? The average voter does not go through self inspection. Moreover, if one did, what do you think will happen when those wonderful political leaders get involved to prove their worth? The problem is bigger than just one voter - who typically believes their vote really doesn't count anymore. Donald Trump's appearance on the national stage has done a few things, but perhaps his most important and long-lasting success is the pulling back of the curtain. We see in its naked, pus-filled and evil glory the deep state, the corruption of our central government and the embarrassing lack of gravitas and wisdom [NY Times] among those who preen and crow and brag about how special and wonderful and elite they are in DC or State Capitals, etc.
"Question: how often has the Iowa caucus of either party picked the eventual winner of the presidency? How often has someone who didn’t win the caucus ended up winning?"
A good question. I don't think Iowa really matters in the Republican nomination process for non-incumbents at all. Reagan lost in Iowa in 1980, Dole won in 1988, and Bush II won in 2000 just shows the unimportance of it.
On Democrat side, it has more predictive power- Carter won in 1976 (actually, uncommitted finished first), Mondale in 1984, Gore in 2000, Kerry in 2004, Obama in 2008, Clinton in 2016.
Do you imagine that all liberals condone the activities of Antifa?
@Inky, actually, yes I do, because I do not see any liberals condemning Antifa. I don’t even recollect Althouse condemning Antifa. Certainly I do not recollect you condemning Antifa, much Less the violence of SEIU and other unions in Wisconsin in the recent past. Hence, Trump.
I don’t imagine that all Conservatives or Trump supporters condone the activities of neo Nazi/white supremacists.
Of course you do. Are you lying to us or just to yourself?
buwaya said...
Tutsi and Hutu or Sinhalese and Tamil. But the US is rapidly getting to that point.
While I accept that you are speaking in good faith, as unlikely as that seems, your beliefs reflect an apparently complete absence of knowledge of western political systems. Good faith only gets you so far. You should watch Prime Minister's Questions sometime to see how democracies work.
“I don’t imagine that all Conservatives or Trump supporters condone the activities of neo Nazi/white supremacists.”- me
“Yes, you do. Otherwise you wouldn't have even brought it up.”
No you are wrong. Another failure of imagination. I brought up neo Nazi/ white supremacists as a group of hateful people who have been identified Trump supporters, as Antifa is a group of hateful people who have been identified as liberals. THAT is the reason I brought them up.
Althouse I am now familiar with your disclosure that you voted for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 general election.
I was not aware that you voted in the 2016 Republican primary election. I presume that you did so based on your statement that you “voted against Trump twice in 2016.”
I’m curious who you voted for in the Republican primary in opposition to Trump. You may have disclosed it in the past; if so I have forgotten but I am having a hard time remembering. I am thinking that Scott Walker was no longer running by the time of the Wisconsin primary vote.
Nope. Carter came in 2nd to “undecided” in 76. He got the most delegates but he didn’t close the deal.
I looked it up after I posted the question and it appears that winning the caucus isn’t a very good predictor. Bill Clinton, who I consider the most skilled retail politician of our time, came in a very distant 4th in 92.
Since 72, the only Dem to win the caucus in a non-reelection year and then go on to win the presidency is Obama. W in 2000 is the only Repub. Carter, Clinton, Bush41, Reagan, and Trump all failed to win the caucus but eventually won the presidency.
I’d want a better predictor than that for first in the nation.
Whomever the Dems nominate, it's hard to imagine that they won't make the election a referendum on Roe v Wade.
Yancey
I don’t know about this time but I have been saying that Sinema is the one to watch. I expect she votes to acquit on one charge. Possibly both but the whole point of the second charge was to let Democrats in purple or red states to vote no on it, so my prediction is yes on 1 no on 2.
She needs to build more credibility as a moderate, and so far she has been doing that. Expect her to run in 24 or 28. Best looking woman in National politics since Palin.
What Meade said, except for me I will execute that plan in Massachusetts.
Go Bernie, GO!
“@Inky, actually, yes I do, because I do not see any liberals condemning Antifa. I don’t even recollect Althouse condemning Antifa. Certainly I do not recollect you condemning Antifa, much Less the violence of SEIU and other unions in Wisconsin in the recent past. Hence, Trump.
I don’t imagine that all Conservatives or Trump supporters condone the activities of neo Nazi/white supremacists.
Of course you do. Are you lying to us or just to yourself?”
BM, I’ve said numerous times here on this very blog that I don’t condone violence by any group, including Antifa. That you choose to forget that is one of the problems that perpetuate the demonizing of each other. I do not imagine Trump supporters on the whole support white supremacists as liberals on the whole don’t support Antifa.
New Hampshire is the opposite of Iowa- more predictive for Republicans, less so for Democrats.
South Carolina, though, seems to be nearly a must win for both parties, a bit more so for Republicans.
What about this nonsense of no gig economy/working for yourself/must join union crap?
The California fiasco is already written for the House to pass.
Good and hard.
"So the interesting thing is to try to unify all of the Trump haters around that hatred. Not to try to minimize the hatred."
As I said, I want to watch every last Never Trumper melt into a puddle... of their own waste product of hate.
Are the people saying that they will vote in bad faith for Bernie in the primaries the same ones whining about the Dems trying to stop Bernie from getting the nomination? Asking for a friend.
People are rarely rational. Even those that are trained in reason.
That is why in technical troubleshooting it is necessary, first, to take ones feelings out back and shoot them. One must delibetately and very painfully (often) climb out of the world of fantasy. And one must actively avoid, using a developed internal inquisition, complete with proper tortures, falling back into it.
This isnt easy, especially when what one is trying to analyze is culture or public policy, which are entangled in a miasma of tribal feelings. Very few are capable of even making the attempt.
That is why Feynman wrote "Cargo Cult Science", which was popular once, long ago, in a more rational time. But its incredibly difficult to do as Feynman says, and even, today, to keep the pure sciences free of cargo cultism.
As for being swept along by feelings, especially those of the crowd, there has been no better illustration than the "I am an individual" skit in "Life of Brian". Are you really an individual? Its not likely. Are you a "good" person? Thats not likely either.
Meade 12:48
I think that is also the way to split the Democrat party. If Bernie loses the party would fracture. That is to be wished for.
The downside is that any nominee has at least. 20% chance of election. Trump could have a stroke or there could be a war. I am not sure I can swallow that high a risk of President Sanders. Might depend on the veep. Which we won’t know before picking the nominee.
You know, if you are looking at hard left,why not Van Jones? Sure he's a commie but I do respect him. And I think he’d be more competent than Sanders or Warren.
Phil,
1992 was a weird one- Harkin, of course, won Iowa as a sitting Senator from the state, and no one really contested the caucus that year for that reason. Clinton also didn't win New Hampshire, but his second place to Tsongas was the "Comeback Kid" moment. I wrote a comment in one of these threads that the expectation game is a big deal in these things- it fuels narratives for the media who have their own preferences.
“I don’t even recollect Althouse condemning Antifa.”
So, what are you saying? That Althouse supports Antifa because she hasn’t explicitly condemned them on her blog? Don’t you see that this demand for purity, or group think is a way of otherizing people? How do you know she doesn’t condemn them? Have you read her mind?
ARM doesn't understand the word "whining". Dumbass, we are cheering the Democrats on in their effort to screw Sanders over.
Blogger Francisco D said..."...That is likely the case because if Trump supporters were anything other than ignorant deplorable, they (the leftists) might be challenged to defend their opinions. That cannot happen..."2/3/20, 10:56 AM
You are correct! In fact, the survey produced by GSS (in 2018), if agreed to by Leftists, would have their brains explode out of disbelief. Yet, they continue to cite other polls which favor their causes.
https://reason.com/2020/01/30/trump-supporters-verbal-ability/
“As I said, I want to watch every last Never Trumper melt into a puddle... of their own waste product of hate.”
Never Trumpers don’t own the market on hate. Imagine that there are Trumpists who hate, loath and dehumanize liberals, or Never Trumpers. That shouldn’t be that hard. It’s here on these comments sections every single day. Maybe it’s time we all own our guilt.
Down the road, We will be brought to heel for scorning them.
I'm glad I'm my age. they'll just pull the plug.
Don’t you see that this demand for purity, or group think is a way of otherizing people?
Inga is attacking someone for otherizing? I think a little introspection is in order.
That Althouse supports Antifa because she hasn’t explicitly condemned them on her blog?
Conservatives are routinely called racists if they fail to explicitly condemn racist organizations. By the standards of the Left, yes, Althouse is an Antifa supporter unless she explicitly condemns them.
"Maybe it’s time we all own our guilt."
You first. I'm all ears.
I think the Democrats are entitled to screw Sanders. They are a private organization, they can choose whoever they want. Adam Sandler is available.
Politics is downstream of culture, as Instapundit likes to say.
What goes on between politicians in Question Time is not relevant to underlying political reality. What matters is what peoples think of (or feel about, more accurately) each other, in the collective groupings people naturally fall into.
And this is what Althouse is talking about in her post.
Are the people saying that they will vote in bad faith for Bernie in the primaries the same ones whining about the Dems trying to stop Bernie from getting the nomination? Asking for a friend.
Nope. The first group are Deplorables trying to fuck with the Democrats. The second group are Communists trying to fuck with the Democrats.
“Conservatives are routinely called racists if they fail to explicitly condemn racist organizations. By the standards of the Left, yes, Althouse is an Antifa supporter unless she explicitly condemns them.’
Maybe we all should stop trying to read others’ mind and not ascribe the worst qualities to each other. None of us are innocent, and as I said upstream, maybe it’s time we all owned our guilt.
Blogger Phil said...
Nope. Carter came in 2nd to “undecided” in 76. He got the most delegates but he didn’t close the deal.
I looked it up after I posted the question and it appears that winning the caucus isn’t a very good predictor. Bill Clinton, who I consider the most skilled retail politician of our time, came in a very distant 4th in 92.
Since 72, the only Dem to win the caucus in a non-reelection year and then go on to win the presidency is Obama. W in 2000 is the only Repub. Carter, Clinton, Bush41, Reagan, and Trump all failed to win the caucus but eventually won the presidency.
I’d want a better predictor than that for first in the nation.
How many won Iowa, won the nomination, then lost the GE?
How many crap candidates are driven out because they can't cut it in Iowa? Eliminating the bad is at least as valuable a trait as finding "the best".
My memory: In non-incumbent years: no one wins both IA and NH. And the winners of IA and NH are always the final two competing for the nomination.
Both of these are characteristics you want in the "first two states"
"You know, if you are looking at hard left,why not Van Jones?"
Sorry, Trump is as hard left as I'll be willing to go on November 3, 2020.
Wisconsin has an open primary system, so on April 7 I'll probably give Bernie my vote because I want him to be the Democratic nominee because I want The Trump to be reelected. I admit it will give me pleasure to watch Never Trumpers melt into a puddle when faced with the binary choice between a patriotic Civic Nationalist (Trump) and an anti-American Covert Communist (Sanders).
Thank you, Meade. Yes, I remember when WA state had an open primary system and Democrats voted for Pat Robertson for GOP Presidential Candidate and I think the Republicans voted Jesse Jackson for Democratic candidate, or something like that.
Guilt?
BWaaaa, the 60s generation wanted to stamp out guilt and shame.
See San Franshithole.
That's the future because they care. They're tenderhearted.
Oh, inga, I note you haven't offered us any times when you've actually condemned antifa.
And you haven't offered us any times when those dreaded "neo Nazi/white supremacists" have done anything other than star in some left wing fan fic
on April 7 I'll probably give Bernie my vote because I want him to be the Democratic nominee because I want The Trump to be reelected.
That is a good reason to vote for Bernie in the primaries. Another reason to have him as the Democrat nominee is that it will put a lot of pressure on the Democrat media to either cover for Bernie or criticize his policies.
Of course, they will totally ignore Bernie and come up with a multitude of Trump "scandals" to focus on. It will be 24/7 accusations, including more women claiming to be raped by Trump than by Brett Kavanaugh. The sheer volume will amaze people.
I hold out the naive hope that fair minded people will see how absurdly bent the media is and start to look at them as the propaganda arm of the DNC.
gahrie said...
Nope. The first group are Deplorables trying to fuck with the Democrats. The second group are Communists trying to fuck with the Democrats.
Are you calling Yancey a commie?
I think Churchill's belief in the British Empire was what inspired his belief that England would win out over Hitler. Newton's belief in astrology inspired his observations about the movement of the spheres. You don't have to be right about everything. You just have to be right about something important......Weinstein's libidinal urges undoubtedly underlay his wish to become a successful Hollywood producer. He made some good movies, but he actually did worse things than Trump said a celeb could do. Moreover, he did those things to other celebs and got away with them for decades. That's the subtext of all the Hollywood critics of Trump's statement. Ditto with Clinton and Kennedy supporters who are so earnest in their condemnation of Trump's moral compass.
“Maybe it’s time we all own our guilt."-me
“You first. I'm all ears.”- Meade
From my 11:49 comment.
“I’ve so often felt that this is the way commenters here thought about liberals and a Democrats. The lack of imagination toward liberals is astounding at times. The commenters here seem to be unwilling or unable to see liberals as people who hold some of the major values that they do. Not long ago I spoke about my son’s death in April and I was so appreciative of all the sincere condolences and empathy. I didn’t expect that and I was blown away by the decency and humanity. So I’m guilty of lack of imagination toward Trump supporters. Most here were very kind, but there were a few who said I had made it up. Make up my own son’s death? That blew me away too.”
I'm a lifelong registered Democrat--but here in California I mostly split the ticket when voting for the six statewide offices in each election
How? It's usually two Democrats running against each other.
They can't find their way to the beginning of that path because they are so deeply invested in demonizing the other side. They want voters in the middle to go with the Democrats because the GOP side is demonic. To demonize is to disbelieve in the possibility of connection with the real humanity of the people you want to convince. There's only a hope that some of the demons are getting tired of being demons.
You write this as if it was something new, and not something the Democrats and MSM have done to the Republicans going back at least as far as Goldwater. How can you characterize how they treated even their pet favorites like Romney and McCain when they were running as anything other than demonization? Which Republican hasn't been demonized by the MSM and the Democrats?
Blogger Meade said...
"So the interesting thing is to try to unify all of the Trump haters around that hatred. Not to try to minimize the hatred."
As I said, I want to watch every last Never Trumper melt into a puddle... of their own waste product of hate.
Meade, the good news for you is that after last night I think Trump has won over the great people and the great state of Kansas.
So that’s a start.
Are you calling Yancey a commie?
Anyone who supports Bernie is a Commie, whether they realize it or not.
If Trump is re-elected, he will have set a new normal for a president and Barack Obama could be one of the last career politicians to be elected president.
Antifa is a sideshow act. At most it is just an emergent phenomenon of the state of social and cultural power, a symptom of the feelings of dominance and consequent impunity by one side over another.
What really matters is the ubiquitous institutional bias against conservatives, and the whole of the American volk and its culture (your "traditional" population).
Antifa matters not at all. The real problem, which directly affects the question of power, is what underlies such things as the treatment of Brendan Eich and the University of California Diversity Statement filter for hiring faculty, where one must effectively pledge fealty to an ideological position in orderto enter an academic career. One cannot hire a Feynman at UC these days.
And the UC differs from your general academia only in being so open about it.
Add to that the ubiquitous suppression of conservative political and cultural activism in the corporate world, and the active encouragement of "progressive" activism. This is very real. These are cases of tribal war at a fundamental level, which shows itself as cultural aggression.
Politics and political speech are just manifestations of much larger realities.
Maybe we all should stop trying to read others’ mind and not ascribe the worst qualities to each other.
That's all the Left has, besides "shut up".
The idea that people will vote for someone with a vote that is actually against someone else -- well, that was Walker Recall #1, Kloppenburg Supreme Ct race and Walker/Burke, wasn't it? And it didn't work.
People vote for someone or something. That's what gets them out to vote. Unless you can write a concrete sentence that says a vote for X more than just an I Hate Trump vote, your candidate X will lose. Bigly.
Bernie Sanders has an intuitive sense of the class-based politics of resentment Trump used to beat Hillary. Most other Democrats rely on race-based politics of resentment, and the rest lack intuition about what motivates the white working class.
Never assume someone wants to relinquish their hysteria. For so many it's like emotional heroin. Look at Chuck. That shit is hitting a sweet spot!
“Accord full humanity to the Americans who are capable of accepting Trump and try to understand them as real people whose thoughts and feelings matter.”
What—like All Lives Matter?
The Democrats have already announced that to be a non-starter, so the chances of them seeing Trump supporters as anything other than Deplorables are nil.
"Meade, the good news for you is that after last night I think Trump has won over the great people and the great state of Kansas.
So that’s a start."
Okay. But first things first. How does that help Bernie?
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...A complete failure to engage, followed by puerile name calling. Present an example, dissect it for the readers, show how someone could not possibly in good faith believe the counter argument.
Again, if there were some evidence that you were willing to engage in good faith, I would. But as things stand, it's not as good use of my time. And I'm not trying to convince the broader audience as I might in other forums because people here know who and what you are, so no convincing is necessary.
"If Trump is re-elected, he will have set a new normal for a president and Barack Obama could be one of the last career politicians to be elected president."
But Barack was elected as a celebrity, not as a politician. Trump is following the trail Obama blazed, in that respect.
Its perfectly possible to accept someone as "fully human", being neighbors or even relatives - and then one day, on orders from ones tribal leadership, hack them to death with machetes.
You give human beings too much credit. You give yourselves too much credit.
But Barack was elected as a celebrity, not as a politician. Trump is following the trail Obama blazed, in that respect.
Obama was cast to play the President on TV. Many people believe that Trump is miscast in that role.
Ken B said...
I think the Democrats are entitled to screw Sanders.
The biggest reason Democrats are entitled to screw Sanders is that Sanders isn't a Democrat. They have no obligation to play fair with him.
Does Antifa still exist?
If you're in the middle between Trump and the democrats you're a woman.
Who seems to mean well. Probably Bernie Sanders, on the left. Idiotic policies but who cares about complications, we're women.
"Many people believe that Trump is miscast in that role."
Yeah but some of us believe Trump is the most presidential president in history. (Except for maybe Honest Abe Lincoln when he's wearing his hat.)
The democrat arguments in the Senate today are amazing. Highly worked up, lots of favorable mentions of founding Americans by name, mentions of mountains of evidence against Trump, idiotic.
Socialism would be like a nationwide HOA on steroids.
Nothing more amusing than to be chastised by leftists on this board for not observing civility towards their political opponents.
"If you're in the middle between Trump and the democrats you're a woman."
Well, it is 2020. We are all a woman now.
It really is an amazing story of interpretive dance about the nefarious Trump. A man without character, and unapologetic too.
It really is astounding. Do they know why Augustine said charity, meaning thinking the best of people rather than the worst, is soul-saving.
"I admit it will give me pleasure to watch Never Trumpers melt into a puddle when faced with the binary choice between a patriotic Civic Nationalist (Trump) and an anti-American Covert Communist (Sanders)."
"Why don't you show those three hosers something, and vote for Trump?"
I won't melt into a puddle if faced with choice of Trump or Bernie (or Joe or Mike). But I expect in that event my friends will push me to rouse myself from my multidirectional antipathy and vote for the Democratic nominee. Will I be able to resist their entreaties?
Not that I recognize Trump as best described as a patriotic civic nationalist or Sanders as an anti-American covert communist (enough that he's not a card-carrying Democrat).
Here’s an interesting poll on how the majority of Democrats think. Can you imagine it? Or do you reject it out of hand?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/03/democrats-on-twitter-more-liberal-less-focused-on-compromise-than-those-not-on-the-platform/
“Democrats on Twitter more liberal, less focused on compromise than those not on the platform
Differences between Democrats on and off Twitter extend beyond ideology. About two-thirds of Democrats who do not use Twitter (65%) say it is more important for a Democratic candidate to seek common ground with Republicans, even if it means giving up some things Democrats want. A smaller share of Twitter-using Democrats (54%) take this view; 45% prefer a candidate who will push hard for policies Democrats want, even if it makes it much harder to get some things done.”
The alternative to removing Trump is a runaway presidency.
Antifa does exist.
It is very active in Portland OR, a center of activity.
What has changed in the last year or two are the frequency of challenges to antifa, especially in universities. The manifestations of conservative speakers and activism in universities has declined, reducing the oppotunity for counter-manifestations.
Speaking in background, this is probably the result over fears about identification as conservatives vs career prospects. Yiannopoulos failed, and its a great pity. He made a good start in unlocking the silent minority, or the uncommitted, starting a preference cascade.
Oh that's Schiff speaking now. He's reading. Trump would do it off the cuff.
What the majority of people want matters very little vs what the majority of people with actual cultural social and economic power want.
What you Americans have left is your votes, and thats all. Thats why this Trump moment is actually a sort of political guerrilla war, fought mostly in the underground by a side with marginal resources.
Isn't Iowa more important for the bottom quartile than the top tier? It's more about maintaining viability than winning the nomination.
I'd like to believe that I'm being pretty reasonable when it comes to trying to mind read people whose political opinions I may disagree with. I realize that most people aren't wicked or intentionally destructive. ANd I agree that a person's politics are largely determined by affiliations that could be described as "tribal" or similar to team sports. There's obvious tendencies towards deomonizing and "otherizing" your oppoents. And I also agree that most voters generally won't ever self examine their own thinking on any given issue or postion.
But I also agree that Conservatives are generally treated far more unfairly than Liberals in the mainstream media, as well as on social media, and just in the culture at large. And I think that most people on the Left tend to assume certain things about people on the Right that in fact really aren't true for the most part.
For example, I think that most left-leaning people assume that people on the right are by and large racist and sexist and homophobic and xenophobic. I can only say that personally don't find that to be the case at all. I've been conservative pretty much my whole life and have of course personally known many, many conservatives as well as liberals. I haven't found that Conservatives are generally mean spirited and closed minded in those ways, or at least to any degree that would be markedly different from liberals. Most concervatives I've known are actually very tolerant and decent people, but you may not conclude that if all you ever read is the NYT, all you ever listen to is NPR, and all you ever watch is the CNN or Steven Colbert I guess.
She would have been laughed at by the right as being too inexperienced for the job, but Sinema would have run rings around this group of candidates.
Sinema is very pro law enforcement, border enforcement, and military.
She's no longer a member of the democrat party, she just doesn't realize it yet.
For example, I think that most left-leaning people assume that people on the right are by and large racist and sexist and homophobic and xenophobic.
Yeah. Probably has nothing to do with the fact they say those exact things day after day after day. Publicly and proudly.
tim maguire said...
it's not as good use of my time.
Once again a failure to engage combined with name calling. You are too busy to come up with an argument, any argument, but you have plenty of time to slander someone? It is difficult to appear less convincing than this, but I don't want to prejudge your next missive.
A note of caution based on having voted since 1972 in every election:
Never vote in a primary for someone you don’t want on the theory that they’ll lose in the general election.
I call it the Acme Products rule.
Nonapod said.... I haven't found that Conservatives are generally mean spirited and closed minded in those ways, or at least to any degree that would be markedly different from liberals. Most concervatives I've known are actually very tolerant and decent people, but you may not conclude that if all you ever read is the NYT, all you ever listen to is NPR, and all you ever watch is the CNN or Steven Colbert I guess.
Exactly!!
Buwaya said...
Antifa ... is very active in Portland OR, a center of activity.
What do you know from first hand experience about this topic? You currently live in the Philippines.
Inga said...
Here’s an interesting poll on how the majority of Democrats think. Can you imagine it? Or do you reject it out of hand?
Oh, i believe it.
It's why Trump keeps getting large numbers of registered Democrats showing up at his rallies: Because the Democrats running the Party are insane. And there's lots of Democrat, or soon to be former Democrat, voters who realize that
The fundamental conservative thought is “Hesitate”.
Jim at—I don’t think you have that figured out right.
November will be exciting for us all.
Rush Limbaugh has advanced lung cancer. In the coming months it should be interesting to see the differences between Conservatives and Liberals in terms of responses to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Rush Limbaugh.
"racist and sexist and homophobic and xenophobic"
Partly this is the result of limiting the general value system to over-rate these sins, or to define them as sins, above all other sins. It is much worse to be any of the above than to be unethical or corrupt or incompetent or cruel or murderous or useless. Or for that matter racist and sexist or xenophobic to OTHER people.
This is a tactic of symbols, where emotional appeals are deliberately constrained to a limited symbolic point with no perspective or acknowledgement of reality and its tradeoffs. It is like judging the qualities of a programmable logic controller by its paintjob.
On one level the whole approach is absurd. But if one understands the reality of tribalism and tribal symbols, which these are, one understands their value.
We are in Bilbao Spain.
We left the US only last October.
Why someone who isn’t “curious” enough to finish reading a sentence in this post thinks I would respond to his purported curiosity and dig something out of the archive is some kind of joke.
The Trump basket of deplorables seems to be growing.
An inappropriate metaphor of scale, which is one reason Hillary got her enormous ass handed to her in 2016. It's not a basket of deplorables, it's a Twinkie of deplorables.
No mention of Portland. You know literally nothing about this topic beyond it usefulness as a cudgel. You left a country that provided you with, presumably, a very satisfactory living and yet all you do is bitch about it. It is unseemly.
Greg: "How many crap candidates are driven out because they can't cut it in Iowa? Eliminating the bad is at least as valuable a trait as finding "the best"."
I don't see any evidence that they really eliminate the crap ones more often than they eliminate good ones. If WJ Clinton gets 3%, your system is not good at identifying strong v weak. But YMMV.
If WJ Clinton gets 3%, your system is not good at identifying strong v weak.
Well, it looks like it filtered well on the "moral vs amoral" scale there. No?
MadisonMan said...
"The idea that people will vote for someone with a vote that is actually against someone else -- well, that was Walker Recall #1, Kloppenburg Supreme Ct race and Walker/Burke, wasn't it? And it didn't work.
People vote for someone or something. That's what gets them out to vote. Unless you can write a concrete sentence that says a vote for X more than just an I Hate Trump vote, your candidate X will lose. Bigly."
Yes, except... in 2016 my vote for Trump was almost entirely a protest vote against the candidate nearly everyone, including I, was sure would win — Hillary. Gulp. Little did I know he would turn out to be the best president in my lifetime. Weirdest, yes, but also the best. (Now finish that weird wall, Mr. Greatest!)
My vote was a visceral loathing of that.....grifter.
Crawl across broken glass to vote against her.
Inga writes "I’ve so often felt that this is the way commenters here thought about liberals and a Democrats. The lack of imagination toward liberals is astounding at times. The commenters here seem to be unwilling or unable to see liberals as people who hold some of the major values that they do."
It's actually a failure of her imagination to believe that we conservatives don't know exactly what liberals and Democrats believe. Many of us, and I'm one, spent most of our careers working with and around liberals (in my case as a government contractor in and around Washington, DC). Those who don't have the dubious "pleasure" of working with liberals on a daily basis can certainly see what liberals believe from reading any newspaper or watching any network news show (other than Fox}. @Inky, we already know all about you.
@Meade, I still put Reagan ahead of Donald Trump. Sorry.
(And don't try to tell me you were born after 1988.)
Althouse logic failure: "Their imagination is pathetic ... accord full humanity to the Americans who are [in]capable of accepting Trump and try to understand them as real people whose thoughts and feelings matter."
You can send a New York Times reporter out of the echo chamber to Iowa, but s/he carries the echo chamber along inside and cannot see Iowa as Iowa. The result is a view evaluates Iowa based on how similar or dissimilar Iowa is to the comfortable, womb-like echo chamber.
This practice certainly is not exclusive to progressives or members of the news media, but it does skew perceptions. It is a good reason at least to try to understand people on their own terms. You can learn stuff that way. And sometimes have fun doing so.
Inga relays this: "Differences between Democrats on and off Twitter extend beyond ideology. About two-thirds of Democrats who do not use Twitter (65%) say it is more important for a Democratic candidate to seek common ground with Republicans, even if it means giving up some things Democrats want. A smaller share of Twitter-using Democrats (54%) take this view; 45% prefer a candidate who will push hard for policies Democrats want, even if it makes it much harder to get some things done.”
I don't know a single person, republican or democrat, who disagrees with this. Anywhere.
The issue is that the entirety of the democrat leadership and momentum makers is Twitter-Verse, not Everybody-Else-Verse.
"Well, it looks like it filtered well on the "moral vs amoral" scale there. No?"
Sure, but that's not the question. The question is whether or not this particular ranked choice system works better at identifying good candidates better than just having a vote and counting up all the first place votes. It doesn't seem to. I suspect we'd get better candidates if we had multiple states with primaries go first rather than this.
"someone who could go either way and 2020"
Still! The power of abortion at work.
Consider: growth and low unemployment, fewer illegals and better trade deals, pressure on adversaries and support for our friends, and three-year hoax/coup followed by a sham impeachment-- and Althouse can go either way. She's waiting to "see what happens"! Cuz nothing much has happened yet, you see, and stuff can happen. So a "moderate" can vote for or against the coup supporters.
think that about the only thing that Elizabeth Warren, Justin Amash, Bill Kristol and Hillary Clinton would EVER agree on is the answer to this question; if you must choose between “Democratic” candidate Michael Bloomberg and “Republican” candidate Donald Trump, will you choose Bloomberg? I think they will all answer yes.
This is the first statement from Chuckles I’ve read with which I am in agreement. I do think Bloomberg is Trump’s biggest challenge. I don’t know if we will elect a Jew since there is a segment of our society on the left and right that may not go along with the program, and these elections are won or lost at the margins.
This post is exactly why I read this blog. In general, I think the lefties are nasty little shits and have terribly unsavory goals. Just listen to that Bernie organizer talk about the re-edukation kamps to the Project Veritas guy. But the vast majority of Dem voters are generally well-meaning folks and they self-identify as being in the well-meaning social club. But they are intensely naive and lack the historical foundation necessary to evaluate the downstream results of their policy views that play to their well-meaningness. Most of it is thoroughgoing ignorance of basic economics and human nature. It’s reflexive and not the product of serious thought.
- Krumhorn
readering said...
Here's where I come to see Trump voters thinking seriously about Democrats.
He says this as an insult but this is exactly what Althouse does. Amusingly this attracts exactly zero similarly interested Dems. It's so alien to them even those who pretend to want serious thinking can't even recognize it.
ARM takes time out from describing in detail what is happening in the Midwest to complain about buwaya commenting on Portland OR, a place where buwaya has no "first hand knowledge".
Discuss.
The Iowa caucuses are meant to be neither a predictor of primary success nor a bellwether for the rest of the primary race, nor are they for helping "voters" decide who they want to vote for. That's all news business expectations and hype placed upon them for the purposes of ginning up a story. The caucuses are exactly two things: 1) for the engaged members of Iowa's party organizations to decide who they will support in the upcoming elections; 2) pre-season for the candidates and their organizations.
It's the place tactics and themes are tried and put into quality assurance; if they don't work there is plenty of time to re-tool and learn the lessons. If they work, then it's on to the states with enough delegates to be invested in. All the money spent in Iowa is to build and learn. And the media likes to ride along so they can sell some clicks.
Current evidence of this: Bloomberg can afford to pay for messaging and branding that doesn't need to be vetted by real voters (or at least he thinks so). He can go directly into production in the Super Tuesday states since his money makes the pre-season game in Iowa and NH unnecessary.
Rick, I meant the comments.
Never understood why AA attracted a commentariat that skewed so far right and apparently white/male/old (so I fit in comfortably), but there you go.
The old righties are fascinated by a smart woman that lets them talk but nevertheless can't stop thinking like a stereotypical woman. There are reasons for that. That's how the female brain works.
See Vicki Hearne, _Bandit_ (ostensibly a dog book but actually musings on society's issues), chapter 8, "Beastly Behaviors."
Inga said...
I’ve so often felt that this is the way commenters here thought about liberals and a Democrats. The lack of imagination toward liberals is astounding at times. The commenters here seem to be unwilling or unable to see liberals as people who hold some of the major values that they do.
This sort of comment makes me wonder if Inga's a split personality. Someone who claims all Republicans believe as Todd Akin does they're just smart enough to hide it, and that Mitt Romney Republicans want to literally create The Handmaid's Tale in America just can't whine about others not treating Team Blue fairly. This is on top of cursing both the host and other commenters.
But then I remember left wingers don't believe standards apply to them. So then it all makes sense.
now she may personally believe it, ritmo I don't know what the heck he is, probably a bot, or a synthetic,
Blogger Drago said...
ARM takes time out from describing in detail what is happening in the Midwest
I have lived in the Midwest, admittedly Missouri not the Great State of Kansas, but the Midwest nonetheless.
Even if you haven't lived there, how fucking clueless do you have to be to not know what state Kansas City is in. I mean, it's right there in the name.
Accord full humanity to the Americans who are capable of accepting Trump and try to understand them as real people whose thoughts and feelings matter.
If ya start treating you people you disagree with like actual humans, well, then they won't learn nothin'! Spare the Twitter, spoil the deplorable!
What exactly is treating somebody like a human supposed to be. Being interested in his feelings?
Cordial indifference is the usual drill for humans, and lots of other things too.
Try not being indifferent to strangers and see what happens to you.
>>For example, I think that most left-leaning people assume that people on the right are by and large racist and sexist and homophobic and xenophobic.
> Yeah. Probably has nothing to do with the fact they say those exact things day after day after day. Publicly and proudly.
Could you supply us with some examples, please, of leading conservatives proudly boasting of their racism in public?
My suspicion is that what you call racism, isn't.
Treating people like humans has to be a woman's idea.
Guys go for indifference.
If a prince is turned into a frog, should you show concern for his humanity? He may be all right, going after flies and sitting in the sun.
How about a frog turned into a prince?
You can feed them both flies, though.
>Even if you haven't lived there, how fucking clueless do you have to be to not know what state Kansas City is in.
Or how many states there are, plus or minus 6.
Or what religion you are.
Or how old your daughters is. Twice.
Or what year it is, plus or minus 3.
Or that 10,000 people didn't die in a tornado in Kansas. Or anywhere else. Ever.
Or didn't know that Presidents don't bow to foreign kings.
Or believing that signing a piece of paper with fanatics who've been chanting "Death to America" since 1979 will be your great legacy.
Yep, that would be one clueless sumbitch president right there. I'm sure you were all high and mighty about somebody that clueless.
You were, right?
I lived in Kansas city, Mo for 10 years and we got used to outsiders not knowing the difference between that and Kansas city, Ks. even though the difference was as wide as St.Louis, Mo. and East St.Louis. But I think it speaks to the current political pettiness to seize on any comment on Orange Man bad. It's been a rough couple of months for liberals. Let them have this "victory".
readering said...
Never understood why AA attracted a commentariat that skewed so far right and apparently white/male/old (so I fit in comfortably), but there you go.
2/3/20, 4:11 PM
I'm not really a regular these days, but mockturtle, DBQ, Angelyne, Bleach Bit, I Have Misplaced My Pants, Karen in TX and Freeman are. And they're all women. Furthermore, I don't think Freeman and Pants are all that old, since they had babies in the past few years. There are a few other women who occasionally comment.
readering once again shows he's a very selective reader.
readering said...
Never understood why AA attracted a commentariat that skewed so far right and apparently white/male/old (so I fit in comfortably), but there you go.
Oh, yours is a great question for sure.
Althouse attracted some midwestern conservatives with her blogging about Walker and the Wisconsin legislature and state supreme court.
But then, the debates were about policy and especially procedural details.
It is the era of Ol’ Bone Spurs that really changed things. And Althouse barely had to lift a finger. She never endorsed/supported Trump. All that she had to do, were the few essentially Trumpian things: 1) Pronounce about how interesting Trump was as a communicator, and thereby humanize him; 2) attack the Trump attackers; criticize the NYT, WaPo, NPR, etc, and 3) never, ever criticize President Donald J. “Bone Spurs” Trump.
Could you supply us with some examples, please, of leading conservatives proudly boasting of their racism in public?
They = left-leaning people assuming x, y and z about conservatives.
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